I, I don't look to scientists for authority on history.

I don't look to scientists for authority on morality.

I don't look to scientists for authority on, on legal matters.

I only look to scientists for authority on science.

You know, affairs.

One looks to the experts in the particular field of their expertise that we don't.

We don't.

I don't take one group of people and make them the authority over everything foreign.

This is Apologetics Live to answer your questions, your host from Striving for Eternity Ministries, Andrew Rapaport.

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There we go.

Things are not working well tonight.

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I am your host, Andrew Rapaport.

This is Apologetics Live, where we are here to answer your most challenging questions you have about God and the Bible.

As we say here, we can answer any question that you have about God and the Bible.

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Ask your most difficult question.

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We are here to explain, teach, provide examples of apologetics.

And tonight's apologetic topic we're going to deal with is one of hell.

Does it exist?

Does it not?

This came into.

Well, ah, so this came, this is becoming a topic again because of Kirk Cameron doing a podcast and I guess having the.

Making some statements.

And so we're going to play some of those.

We are going to engage with that.

I want to be a little bit balanced here when I deal with Kurt and Kirk and what he said, because I think that there is, there's just some things I think we need to hear what actually was said and not read into what was not said.

And I'm going to give some cautions as well.

And I'm going to say where I agree and disagree.

All right, so that is going to be the topic tonight.

We will talk about hell.

We're going to talk about whether we, we.

There is eternal punishment, whether there is, you know, whether, whether that is just to have an eternal punishment.

So if there's, this is, again, I want to say that if, if you are, you know, want to dialogue, if you want to discuss, you want to disagree, that's perfectly fine.

You could just go to apologexlive.com you scroll down to the duck icon, click on the duck icon that will get you to, to join us and so we want to encourage that.

So I'm going to bring in Rebecca Burjein is in the backstage.

Rebecca, welcome.

Hi Andrew, you.

So for folks that may not know you're one of the podcasters on the Christian podcast community, which this podcast, this live stream becomes a podcast and you are one of the podcasters there along with this podcast.

Your podcast is one little candle and I've been privileged to be on that.

I, I probably was your only in person guest, huh?

Or no.

Yes.

Okay.

Yep.

Okay.

That's why I gotta hold out on one thing.

Something I could.

Yes, you are my very first.

Yeah.

So yeah, you know, we wanna, I wanna talk a bit about.

Hell, I think you, you had some interest as well in talking about that.

So I figured know since you joined, I'll bring you in early place.

I want to play some clips of Kirk Cameron, engage with that.

Then I want to play something from Ray Comfort because he had a statement that's maybe just two minutes long that I would like to play for folks.

So we hear that as well.

Engage with some.

Because there's, there's a key thing that Ray said that I think a lot of people are missing.

And so I, I want to engage with those, those things.

I will say there's, there's a lot of interesting dialogue with folks over Candace Owen.

And I'm just, I'm just going to say for the record, Candace Owen lost her mind long ago when she decided to be Roman Catholic.

Okay.

That's exactly what I said.

That was exactly my thinking, to be honest.

Yeah.

It didn't make sense to me that you would go from that to that.

You know, she claimed she was a born again Christian.

Correct.

So, so let me, let me just help people because a lot of people like, you know, I mean, she's making some wild accusations.

This is all, all over.

You know, I've been, I've, I've gotten fed up with it.

So I've started responding to it on my ex account and, and Facebook.

Just trying to provide some common sense thinking.

I mean it's, it's a thing where there are things she says that if you take a step back, anyone who follows her, just, just take a step back and ask yourself, if someone who was a social justice warrior were saying the same things, would you spot the victim card being played?

Would you spot the arguments based off of feelings and emotion?

Would you spot the argument for evidence that is really not evidence, but half truths?

What do I mean by that?

Let me give one example.

She said that the, she, that the US Government, that she were.

There's threats on her life and that the U.S. government, you know, had, you know, confirmed receipt of her contact.

And so the people are going, ccc, the US Government, return your confirmed receipt.

Oh, there went my, my light.

I'll try that light.

You know, so what, what you have is their, their client here.

She's implying that the US Government confirms there was a threat on her life.

However, that's not what she said.

And if folks are not familiar with the way the government works, what they confirmed is receipt.

And she said that.

So she said something.

That's true, but she's misleading folks because confirmation of receipt means that she put in a re A request and they confirmed that they received it.

That's it.

It's not a confirmed confirmation that there was a threat on her life.

And that's what people implied because that's how she led them to believe.

This is the same thing social justice warriors do.

And, and so.

Oh, here, here we go.

Papa bear.

Odin says she was a social stress warrior.

In 2015.

She started her career as a liberal who doxed conservative, just returning to her true form sewing division.

Yeah, that's, that's the thing.

I, I'll tell, I'll, I'll explain.

Really my view, I think, I think this really sums up what we see because people are going, well, how could she turn on, on Turning Point, you know, a organization that she helped found.

That's the claim she's made.

She worked there for, I think, a year and a half out of what, 10 years?

You know, that, that's not long, actually, I think it was more than 10 years that, that it's been around.

And so, you know, what you see is that she hasn't been part of it for a long time.

But I, I think there is a way of explaining her behavior because people think that it's.

Because the fact that she turned must mean that she has the truth and she cares about Charlie.

I don't doubt that she cares about Charlie.

Why she's so against Erica.

Well, I'm glad you asked.

Let me, let me explain because I think once I say this, this will put everything in perspective.

I believe that Candace Owens had a crush on Charlie Kirk.

She was infatuated with him, she liked him, and he didn't marry her.

He married Erica Kirk.

Shortly after he started dating Erica Kirk, she starts dating the guy that she's now married to.

Shortly after Charlie Kirk gets married, she gets married.

And I think now that Charlie has passed, the only thing that she really, you know, was infatuated with is gone.

And she is jealous of Erica Kirk.

That's, that explains all the behavior.

She's a jolted woman who never actually, you know, I think that all the, the, the ideas she had of her and Charlie were probably in her head, but it explains the behavior already.

So I, I just think that people need to stop giving her the, the, the air, the attention because all she wants is that she wants to have that, that attention.

And you know, she's, I, I just say that she's, she's once you willing to mislead you and deceive you in order to get your views, that is someone you should mark and avoid and that's what we should do with her.

So speaking of that, however, there is a new article up on truscript that deals with this exact topic.

If you go to truscript.com it is a non profit organization that is for blogging and basically a, a solid replacement to Gospel Coalition if you're not, if you haven't been out there.

But truscript.com their latest article is by one Andrew Rapaport.

Oh my.

Yes, this is, this is a article that when John Harris from Conversation that Matters had started this, this whole thing about, about truscript, when he started it, he asked me whether I would write an article on the topic of biblical or faithful ministry compared to platform building.

And I really struggled to write this for a long time because you know, I have too much, you know, I, I, I've seen too much of the, the platform building and been, you know, been on the receiving end of people who want to build their platform off of, of, of me.

And I didn't know if I could write it without making it personal.

And so ended up preaching a, a message at Jeffrey Rice's conference where he asked for the same type of topic faithful preachers.

And so out of that, since I was able to to produce those sermon notes, I'll probably put those, the full sermon notes on Striving for eternity.

But on Truscript, if you go to truscript.com there is a article Ministry versus Platform Building.

It is a condensed version of my notes and my sermon and it will highlight the differences between those who want to build platforms, AKA Candace Owen and people who are trying to do faithful real ministry.

And so that is something that I encourage everybody to go and and check out.

It is called ministry versus platform building and@truthscript.com so want to encourage you all to go and check that out.

And let me just say this.

Share it with someone you know that is in content creation.

When I preach that at Jeffrey Rice's church or his conference, I had a friend of mine, Keith Foskey, who is in the audience and he said he thought it was the best sermon he ever heard me preach.

Even though he's a content creator.

It was, he said it was a good reminder for him as a content creator because there is this very subtle.

Well, it's a pride issue.

People want acceptance.

People want to, to have influence when they're a content creator.

And there is a subtle draw.

It's pride where people start missing ministry to do platform building and they start making ministry decisions to get numbers.

When you're doing something for numbers, you're not doing it for God.

Now, you might have the numbers, but you're not going to be faithful if you're chasing the downloads, the likes, the attention versus giving the attention to God.

Okay?

So I just, I say that to say it's something that folks need to recognize.

And, and if you have someone that is looking, they're chasing the attention.

They're, they're making, they're giving subtle stories so that you'll find them because they're the only, only ones that could give you the truth.

That's the type person I start to worry about as a platform builder.

So wanted to give that.

All right, let's, let us play a clip here.

I'm going to put this up on screen and let's see if we can make that a bit bigger.

No, let's see.

Oh, there we go.

That works.

All right, this is Kirk Cameron and his, his son on their, on Kurt's podcast.

Now let me, I, for full disclosure here, I do, I just want to say I, I, I have worked in a volunteer capacity for Living Waters.

I spoke for them on the east coast.

I would lead their academy, their academies that they have each year.

I have been very close with many of the folks that are there at Living Waters, and I did in the years past know Kirk personally.

What shocks me is that Kirk actually remembers me.

But it's a thing where Kirk is someone, I'm just going to say up front, when, when Kirk studies something, when he gets into something, he throws himself fully into it and starts researching it and he researches heavy, he, he reads a lot.

And so one of the things I've noticed is, is Kirk will change views over time, but he usually does a lot of study and a lot of looking into things before he does.

And so I Say that.

Just to say that.

I'm trying to find a good angle here for this.

I. I say that just to point out the fact that he is.

I think, in my opinion, he has not come to conclusions on this view of annihilationism.

He is speaking openly of what his thoughts are.

Okay, so I want to play just a couple of clips.

We'll engage with this and.

And Rebecca, if there's anything you want to jump in, you just let me know.

So let me just play this first clip.

Yeah.

Okay.

Matthew 10:26 31 says, so have no fear, for nothing is covered that will not be revealed or hidden, that will not be known.

What I tell you in the dark, say in the light, and what you hear whispered, proclaim on the housetops.

And do not fear those who kill the body, but cannot kill the soul.

Rather fear him who can destroy both body and soul.

Soul in hell.

Oh.

Oh.

You know, that's a really interesting concept right there.

Right.

If we believe that hell is eternal conscious torment.

Yeah.

Why would it talk about your soul and body being destroyed in hell?

Yeah.

Because the soul can't be destroyed.

The soul lives forever.

Exactly.

Right.

Yeah.

Okay, let me just stop right there and point something out.

All right.

When we look in scripture, there is.

There are three words that are used to refer to human beings.

There is that.

You'll have the idea of body, soul, and spirit.

Okay, now this gets into a question of what some call dichotomy and trichotomy.

Let me define those and explain where I think scripture leads.

So dichotomy two is the idea that there is a material, immaterial part of human beings.

Body, spirit.

Trichotomy would say there's three.

There's the body, the physical, the material.

And then they would say a soul and a spirit, which are immaterial.

Now, I would be a dichotomist.

There's material, immaterial.

Here's the thing.

When you look at the words that are used for body throughout Old and New Testament, it always refers to the physical being, material.

When you look at the word for spirit, it always refers to the immaterial part of people, that being the spirit.

However, the soul refers to both the refer.

The.

The soul at times can refer to the physical, and at other times it can refer to the immaterial.

The soul typically seems to be referring to the whole person where body and spirit are can more be separated.

So sometimes soul refers to immaterial, and sometimes it refers to material.

It could be used interchangeably for E1, and therefore when it speaks of a body and soul, the question is we have to look at the context to say whether his soul is referring to the physical, to the material, or to the immaterial or the complete person.

And, and that is one mistake that some people make with this is that they, they just make the assumption of what the soul may refer to.

So the issue is that there is a element of this where, and, and you, when you look through all the scripture, you, you end up seeing that there's this view where sometimes people get confused because they assume soul always means spirit.

So we just have to be careful with that.

All right, let me keep playing here.

I want to get the, see, no, how do I get the video to be big?

I wonder if I could.

Shouldn't try and create one.

Let's see.

I can move this over here.

Oh, I see what I could do.

There we go.

That'll work.

So if I just.

There we go.

All right, sorry folks.

So let's keep playing.

Does that mean something else or does it mean that the soul does not live forever?

I think we as Christians have a idea that the body will perish, but the soul is eternal.

Yeah.

Now do you see?

Right here is what I'm talking about.

Right here is what he makes the mistake of, of saying that the, the, the difference.

He's assuming that body and soul are this, that there's body versus spirit.

Because he's saying the body could die, but the spirit can't.

But he's saying soul.

But see, the soul can die if it's referring to the body.

By the way, death doesn't mean, when we talk about death, it doesn't mean non existence.

Death is a representation of separation.

Physical death is the separation of the body from the spirit.

Spiritual separation is the separation between people and God in a relational way.

An eternal separation or eternal death is the separation of that relational aspect of man and God for eternity.

Okay, but I, I pointing this out just to say, note that he is, he's making a mistake.

I believe here by saying the body and the spirit, saying that one refers to the soul, because that isn't always the case.

All right, let me keep playing.

That's what, that's what I've always heard.

Through my research and through my understanding, although it may be limited, I have not found that.

I have not found that the soul is necessarily, surely always eternal.

Now he's right there.

Why?

Because the soul doesn't refer only to the spirit.

You see?

You see, this is the mistake.

If we don't understand the way these words are used, we can fall into error.

The Bible does not talk about the eternality of the wicked.

All I found is the eternality of the righteous.

Yeah, through salvation in Christ and living forever.

You know, I heard somebody named Dr. Edward Fudge talk about exactly what you're saying.

He's saying this idea of the immortality of the soul is not a biblical concept.

Now here's what his is, his position.

He says that that concept was imported by early Christians who would read the readings of ancient philosophers like Plato, who weren't Christians, and talked about the soul being immortal, eternal.

And so you're going to go to one of two places forever.

You're going to go to heaven forever, or you're going to go to the bad place, hell, or, you know, whatever it is, forever.

And that they imported that and just considered it a given and then brought that into Christianity.

But that the Bible, particularly in the Old Testament, never talks about the eternality, immortality of the wicked souls.

The only ones who have immortal souls are those who are granted eternal life, and that's only believers.

Jesus died so that we could have eternal life.

But do the wicked have eternal life in hell?

And if they do, why does the Old Testament describe the fate of the wicked in the opposite terms?

Exactly.

For example, let me give it.

The Old Testament describes the fate of the wicked with three words.

Death, perish and destroy.

The soul that sins.

It shall die.

It will perish, it will be destroyed, which is like the ending of life, not the ongoing life forever in punishment.

Yeah.

Okay.

So with that, let's deal with the question.

What is eternal life?

That'd be a good question, Rebecca.

I think that's the question you were, you were asking, right?

You had that in your mind.

No.

What is eternal life?

So, so this is.

No, that wasn't in my mind, but you want me to define it?

No, but this is.

This is what scripture says.

And this again, this is what scripture says.

Eternal Life is John 17:3.

And this is eternal life.

Sounds like it's going to give a definition of eternal life.

Right?

Okay.

And this is eternal life that you may.

That they may know you.

This is Jesus speaking, that they may know you, the only true God and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

You see, eternal life is not living forever.

Eternal life is about our, our relationship with God, not where we live, not how long we live.

That's the difference that you end up seeing.

And, and this is a mistake people make is to think that when they, they think of eternal life, they think it means heaven or they think it means living forever.

Okay, now I do want to pick up some.

Want folks to pick something up that Kirk is doing.

And I'm gonna, we're gonna end up dealing with defining this doctrine of, of hell in a bit.

But I, you know, because this is.

There is some concerns I have with not only what Kirk is doing, but the reaction to it that I think I want us to, to learn from.

But Kirk is not saying what his view is.

He refers to someone else that has written a book and has this, this started this movement on, within Christian circles.

Not really for annihilationism.

It is not right to call it annihilationism.

That's because they would, they wouldn't hold to that.

Annihilationism is the idea that you typically, that you would just go out of existence soon as you die.

This is, and I'm forgetting what they call it.

Conditional.

I forget.

But.

And for folks who have been following this show long enough, you remember when Chris Date, who is a proponent of this, came on and we, we talked about this several times.

Now, one of the concerns that I have with this movement is that you have a lot of people.

I mean, Chris Dade himself actually told me that he recognized that most of the people in his movement for this view of hell are not believers.

And I asked him then, do you share the gospel with them?

And he doesn't want to do that because it might ruin relationships and they're.

So what he's more concerned with is this view that he has that there is no eternal punishment and he'd rather partner with unbelievers as a professing believer so that he can promote this doctrine.

That is a concern because when, you know, you're getting information from a guy like Fudge who's not a believer, and he's the one that literally wrote the book on it.

Okay, this is, this is problematic because what the scripture says, what should, what should light have to do with darkness?

We should be partnering with unbelievers, especially.

I mean, like, there's one thing about, okay, you work with, with an unbeliever in a secular work, but when you're doing ministry, you're teaching doctrine to be partnering with unbelievers.

And, and they're, they're.

The majority of the camp are unbelievers.

I think people just don't like the doctrine of hell.

I don't either.

It's not, it's not a comfortable doctrine.

I mean, my mother passed away many years ago, and people will ask, oh, so you believe that your, your Mother would be in hell.

And I go, yeah.

And they think that's the worst thing anyone could ever say.

But what would I expect?

I mean, I don't make the rules.

God does, you see.

So I do want to turn to, to one passage and let me just ask Rebecca, you have anything you want to say at this point?

Well, you kind of went a different way.

It was great, actually, than I did, you know, in listening to what Kirk and his son had to say.

And I noticed too, how they're, they're just trying to take definitions of words such.

And he, Kirk said it destroy, eternal.

And I think they're, they're forgetting that words like destroy don't necessarily mean that something is taken out of existence.

Correct.

And if you look up the dictionary terms, you know, yes, it can, it can mean that, of course.

But it's also here it says to ruin the structure, organic existence or condition of something, or to damage it beyond repair, to defeat, to cause ruin.

All right, so it doesn't necessarily mean, I think the way he is implying that it means, you know, so I think some of the problem was just semantics with the, with the words and, and meaning.

This is part of hermeneutics.

Hermeneutics is the art and science of interpretation.

And words can mean different things in different time periods.

Words can mean different things in different cultures.

So I could say that FDR was a gay man.

In fact, that's what a reporter said at the time.

It doesn't mean he was a homosexual, but it does mean he was happy.

And anyone who knows any history of fdr, well, his wife wasn't concerned with him and the boys.

She sure was concerned about him and his secretary.

So now she might.

On maybe on the other part is.

It's totally different thing, but.

So what you see is that we have to interpret words within their context.

This is why I gave the explanation of the three words, body, soul, spirit.

We have to understand how they're used.

Now they were saying, and, and this is a key verse with this doctrine.

Okay.

And a lot of people don't look to this, but Daniel 12:2, an easy way to remember this, folks, Daniel 12:1 and 2.

So 12:12, easier place to remember.

But it's Daniel 12:2 that we need to look at because it says many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake.

Now people will say that says that there's, there's people who are in this soul sleep and they're going to wake up.

However, I just, I want us to look at what it says, because this is one verse that compares eternal life to eternal death.

It says many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake these to eternal life, but others to disgrace and everlasting contempt.

So here is the thing that it we see.

However you're going to view the word everlasting life, it is the same as everlasting contempt.

Or so if you're going to call everlasting, I guess in the, in the new American standards, it's everlasting.

Some will say, some translations say eternal life, eternal contempt.

Okay, so it is the same Hebrew word, it is the same context.

So in whatever way you're arguing this everlasting life is.

And they always will say the everlasting life is you live forever.

Then there is a living forever in contempt.

The idea that Fudge puts forth and Chris Day puts forth, and the one that is they're that Kirk is discussing here is this idea that the, the eternal life, the amor.

You're hearing him talk about immortality, that that is only given to believers.

The idea is that when you're saved, you're given immortality, and as unbelievers, you die physically.

You go into a soul sleep until judgment day.

Then you wake up and God judges you and your judgment is non existence.

How is that an everlasting contempt?

In the same manner that you have everlasting life.

This is why Daniel 12:2 is so important, because the context here doesn't change.

The word is the same used the same way.

So he's.

The, the context is, is telling us that people will live forever, both the believers and the unbelievers.

And so this actually counters what Kirk was saying.

Now let me bring Kirk back in and I want to play another clip.

Here we go.

Let's hit play of perishing not being granted eternal life so that you can be tormented forever.

That's, that's like, that doesn't, that doesn't seem to fit.

Yeah, and I think a lot of people don't connect the dots all the way.

We hear the words unquenchable fire in the lake of fire that never goes out, or something like that.

And then we equate that to us in that or people in that.

And they're.

So that lasts for eternity.

Exactly.

Yep.

Well, here's, here's this passage here in Matthew 25 that always freaked me out.

Jesus said, then the king will come to say, those on his right come.

You who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you for the creation of the world.

He goes on and on.

And then he says, but when the Son of Man comes in his glory and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne, all the nations will be gathered in his presence and he'll set separate the people as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.

And he'll place the sheep at his right hand and the goats at his left.

And then skipping down, speaking of, of the goats, the unrighteous, the unsaved, the wicked, he says, and they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous will go into eternal life.

And so the argument goes, there you have it.

Whatever it is that the righteous are going to, which is eternal life, life, which is life that lasts forever.

The opposite is true of the goats, of the wicked, it's punishment that lasts forever.

And so there you have it.

Is that the opposite what?

The opposite of life is what?

Well, I would say death.

Exactly.

That's what I would say too.

But here the contrast is.

And the wicked will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous will go into eternal life.

Yeah.

Okay, so what you have there is the fact that he's saying, well, you have the case where the eternal is the eternal punishment.

But then how is that an eternal punishment?

If the punishment always lasts a split second?

God judges them, they go to non existence.

There is no eternal punishment.

In the same way that they're using the word eternal life.

So we have to look at context when we understand these things.

Now I, I do want to bring up, because they, they make the point that, well, and many of these folks will make the point that fires don't last forever.

And so the again, I want to give you guys easy passages to find on these topics.

The very last verse of Isaiah.

Okay, so I gave you Daniel 12:2 with the way of remembering it, Daniel 12:1 and 2.

So just Daniel 12 or 12:1 2, the last verse of Isaiah, which is Isaiah 66:24.

But just remember, it's the last verse, the last verse of Isaiah.

So you go to the very end of the book, it says, then they will go forth and look on the corpses of men who have transgressed against me, for their worm will not die and their fire will not be quenched, and they will be an abhorrence to all mankind.

So he's saying here that this fire never goes out.

Their argument is the fire always goes out.

Well, not according to God.

And I, I really, I'll go back to what my son said when he was, I think in like first grade.

Now I'm convinced he was talking to a teacher, but he says he was talking to one of his fellow students.

But the arguments that he'd get each day is he, he was telling me he was talking with somebody and, and this is when he was in, in a public school.

We, we had take.

Took him out of public school, I think by second grade.

But, you know, he came home and told me, he had a conversation about how that there really couldn't be a hell because there couldn't be a fire that lasts forever.

And he just turned and says, what about the sun that hasn't gone out?

You know, which is hard for people that say that the sun is billions and billions and billions of years old.

You know, but there, the.

The fact is that if God creates a fire that never goes out there, that can be a fire that doesn't go out.

We cannot assume that just by what we see here on earth, we can understand everything of God's creation.

Okay?

And so what we end up seeing is the fact that there is fires that never go out.

And the punishment can only be an eternal punishment if people are conscious during that time.

Okay, so we got a question that came in here from Mr. Tracy.

One, if eternal life doesn't mean everlasting, why does eternal punishment mean everlasting?

So if eternal life.

So I, if I, I think I'm understanding the question correctly, but I think you're asking the question, say, shouldn't everlasting be the same in both?

Which is the point that I was making out of Daniel 12.

2.

Right.

If you're going to believe that there's everlasting life, meaning that you're living forever, you're conscious forever, then everlasting punishment has to mean that it's everlasting.

So the, the what is sometimes referred to as eternal life.

Okay, the context matters.

Some, some will translate it everlasting life.

When they everlasting means living forever or conscious forever, where eternal life used by John is referring to a relationship.

Okay, so it does, it does matter which is used now, you know, in the Hebrew, the reason I go to Daniel is because it makes it really clear that they're both in the same.

The same way.

So in, in there, it's, it's using the idea of everlasting meaning to be conscious forever.

So I want to play one more clip of Kurt and Kirk and his son, and then I want to play Ray's comments that he had.

So let me bring them back in.

There we go.

Let's play this sinning against God.

Well, it's the ultimate punishment.

It's death.

Exactly.

Total destroy.

And if we're looking at it through the viewpoint of what we believe to be justice in our societies and with law and order and stuff like that, that is the culmination of the worst punishment that could possibly happen, the death penalty.

You're on death row.

Yeah.

And we even get merciful in the way that we do it.

We give someone lethal injection.

Yeah.

We do it humanely.

Humanely.

Right.

We can't have cruel and unusual punishments for people, but an eternal conscious torment that would by definition in human terms be considered cruel and unusual punishment.

Right.

Does God not have a merciful and compassionate way to mete out his justice?

Yeah.

And I think that something just important for us to think about and understand is God.

Throughout all of the scriptures, so many times he does enact judgment, but he also shows mercy.

God is not some megalomaniacal person in the sky who all he wants to do is punish those who sin against him.

No, that's not the character, that's not the personhood of God.

And it's really important that we know that and we know our scriptures when we're talking about hell.

So to me, it does not make sense that a good, just, merciful God who is alter, also righteous would sentence a sinner who was born into sin and has no chance of not sinning to an eternity of punishment for that.

Okay, I'm going to stop this here at this moment just to say this.

I want you to recognize what his son is saying.

He said it doesn't make sense to me.

It doesn't matter whether it makes sense to you and I.

It matters what God says.

You see, none of us have the mind of God.

Therefore, when we're saying, well, this doesn't make sense to me, I wouldn't see God doing this.

That's.

It doesn't make.

I, I can't see God punishing people forever.

That's.

That's inhumane.

That is you.

That is a person who is thinking more about the, the view of man and not of God.

And I'm going to get into when I'm done playing this clip about God's holiness and why this is so lacking.

Okay.

But I just want you to see what he's saying.

He's not saying Scripture says the people who come to this view that hell's not eternal.

Let me correct that, that the lake of fire is not eternal.

I say that because hell is thrown into the lake of fire.

So the, the eternal state is heav, the new heaven and new earth and The Lake of Fire, technically.

So that eternal state of punishment, those that want to deny that they do it from the starting point is one of human emotion.

It doesn't make.

Exactly, Andrew, that's exactly.

Yeah, you're hitting a nail right on the head.

Because when I heard that clip originally, I was thinking, okay, so you have a problem with this emotionally.

What.

What got your.

From their own flesh.

They're trying to determine what is considered just or what God should consider justice.

You know, not.

Not really what scripture's saying or letting scripture even interpret scripture here.

But.

But there is coming from their.

Their finite, limited minds.

And as God says, my ways are not your ways.

My thoughts are not your thoughts.

You know, my.

I'm higher.

But yeah, when they said that, I was like, oh.

Yeah, yeah.

And.

And Papa Bear, Odin is saying, and we're going to get to this in detail, but he says the severity of the punishment is based upon the authority of the offended.

Well, I'm going to keep playing because Kirk is even going to raise that.

Something that he learned from Ray Comfort.

So let me.

Let me keep playing.

So we get Kirk's side.

But I just.

I wanted you to hear what his son said.

It's a.

It's about the human emotion and whether it makes sense to us.

But one thing we have to realize, God is greater than our ability to understand.

When I start, when I teach systematic theology, I start with the attributes of God.

And the first attribute I always start with is God's incomprehensibility.

Because we cannot comprehend God, we might know some things of him, we can never fully comprehend Him.

So let's keep playing this to hear a little bit more.

All right, There are some people who have an argument.

Now, some people will say that the reason eternal conscious torment is a fair and just punishment for any sinner is because of the person you and I are sinning against.

It's not just any person.

Yeah, I've heard.

It's Almighty God.

So the argument goes like this.

If I lie to my dog, what can my dog do to me?

Nothing.

If I lied to my daughter, she might be really hurt and disappointed in me as her dad.

If I lied to my wife, I might be sleeping on the couch.

If I lied to my boss, I might be fired.

And if I lied to the government, I could be put into prison.

Notice that the severity of the punishment increases and gets worse and worse as the authority and the importance of the person against whom I'm sinning and lying to increases.

And so if God is an ultimate Infinite, eternal authority.

And I sin against him.

How much greater should that punishment be?

In fact, it must be eternal, a forever punishment.

And the worst punishment of all.

In fact, it should be infinitely punishable.

Okay, so that is what Kirk was, was saying and, and sharing.

And so the thing that, you know, and, and Papa Bear, Odin here, he's, he's, he obviously either has heard this before or he was, he had watched this.

But yeah, this is, this is something that, that, that Ray Comfort would, argues.

You know, you, you hear others say it and, and Papa Bear had, had put it in here.

You know, you lie to your dog, no consequence.

Lie to your child, hurt, trust to your spouse, couch time, boss, fire, judge, jail, country, treason, God, infinite God.

E. Right.

So the idea is, there is this notion that when we, when we sin against God, it does have a, a consequence because of who God is.

And the, that is something we have to recognize when we are looking at this.

All right, So I, I say this just so we're aware of the fact that we as human beings, we cannot fully comprehend God.

We don't have the right to say the Creator, the one that puts breath in our lungs.

You can't punish someone for all of eternity because that's not fair.

The reason we can't say that is because we don't know what fairness is except by the very nature of God.

So if you're going to say that God is not fair, you have a problem because you need some absolute, universal, immaterial way to define fairness apart from the nature of God.

And there is no absolute, immaterial, universal source other than God.

So God can never be unfair.

So the issue is, is God is infinitely holy.

Infinitely.

Just the idea.

And you heard this with his son saying that somehow God, you know, God is merciful and we love talk about his mercy.

People don't enjoy talking about God's wrath.

And yet that is an attribute of His.

I, I would argue that that's the reason so many people miss this, but that's the reason why God allows people to go to hell.

Okay.

It's something people don't always pick up on that he ends up saying, I'm just going to read from Romans, chapter nine.

I'm going to start in verse 14.

Well, verse 13 he says it is written, jacob, I have loved, and Esau, I have hated.

People go, wait, God doesn't hate.

But it says he does.

So you go, wait a minute.

That's, that wouldn't be just.

Well, if you're asking that question, that's exactly the, the question that Paul's going to say, what shall we say then?

There is no injustice with God, is there?

May it never be.

Now, may it never be is like the strongest way to say a negative, verse 15.

For he says to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.

So that it does not depend on man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.

So the idea is not about what's fair to men.

It's.

It's what God declares is fair.

Okay?

He uses the example of Pharaoh when he says in verse 17, for the scripture says to Pharaoh, for this very purpose, I've raised you up to demonstrate my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed throughout the whole earth.

Now, this is where Kirk's son is kind of having the dilemma here with what's, you know, even though he didn't read this passage, but this is where it would be, is that somehow God would be unjust if he punishes people forever.

That's.

That's somehow unfair.

And you look at this passage.

In this passage, this verse says that God raised Pharaoh up because if you heard Kirk's son, he was saying, well, you know, God, God, we're born as sinners.

We can't control that, and now God is going to judge us as sinners, as if every human being doesn't know God exists.

Romans, chapter 1.

Everyone knows God exists.

They suppress that truth in righteousness.

Unbelievers do not want to be in heaven.

It's the last place they want to be.

They hate God.

They don't want to be in heaven where they're going to sing his praises and worship him for all of eternity.

That is the last place they want to be.

People don't think about that.

They don't want to be there.

Okay?

And so people look at this passage with Pharaoh and go, oh, well, this is if Pharaoh had no choice.

No, God raised him up knowing he was gonna.

He was gonna choose to hate God.

God chose not to save him.

If God.

First off, did God need to create human beings?

No.

If God decided he wasn't going to come to Earth as a human being to be a sacrifice for human beings, what would we rightly deserve?

Punishment.

The.

The question is not why does God send anybody to an eternal punishment.

The question is, why does God save anybody?

That's the thing that should blow us away.

Yeah.

And when talking about, you know, mercy and being merciful, and I know Kirk had said at one point that if conscious, eternal torment isn't a thing, that, that was a great relief because he suggested it makes evangelism easier because we're, we're not presenting a merciless God to skeptics, but God has already proven his mercy.

You know, when we share the gospel with a non believer, you know, we talk about Jesus, death on the cross and forgiveness of our sins and the opportunity to repent and to come to Him.

He is merciful.

We are presenting a merciful God just because he, you know, you can't overlook that.

You know, I don't think we present a merciless God at all when we say that would be an eternal torment.

Like you said, they don't want to be with God.

And so in hell, Hell isn't, doesn't cause people to repent.

As we know in the book of Revelation, people cursed God when they were going under his judgment.

They blasphemed him.

They cursed him and, and I'm assuming that hell will probably be the same way.

They will still be cursing him and blaspheming him.

And because I know the Son had mentioned too that, you know, if his sins are finite, he only sins for a certain amount of time.

Why are you punished possibly for, you know, in eternity?

Well, the way I view it, I think that those in hell who rejected God, they rejected an infinite eternal God.

They infinitely rejected Him.

I think in Hell they are going to be cursing him and blaspheming him and still sinning.

You know, it's kind of almost like a vicious circle.

I think they're going to be sinning and blaspheming and they're just going to keep being punished and punished.

I don't know.

That makes sense.

The view that they hold to with this conditional view of hell is basically because of the fact that their starting point is to think that everyone wants to go to heaven and they don't.

They're enemies of God, they hate God.

That's what, how the Bible describes us apart from Christ.

We know God and we hate Him.

And so it's, it's not that they, they don't want.

They want to be God.

Okay?

And so what you end up seeing as you look through Romans 9, and this is the key to what he's explaining in Romans 9, it comes down in verse 22, 22 says, what if God, although willing to demonstrate his wrath and to make known his power, endured with much patience, vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, and he did so to make known the riches of his glory upon the Vessels of mercy which he prepared beforehand for glory.

Because God is an eternal being.

It's his nature that is the issue here.

And so this is something where as we look at this, we have to recognize that God's God out being outside of time, sees people and says, okay, you're paired for production.

You're paired for eternal, for glory.

That's not based upon what we do.

It's based upon what God does.

Right?

And this is the thing.

God has every right to create us and send us to hell because he is the Creator.

We have absolutely no right to tell the Creator what he could do with his creation.

He's the creator.

He has the right to do whatever he wants.

And he's saying he created man and let them make this decision for one purpose.

Well, not just one person, but one of the purposes is so that he could put his attributes of wrath and mercy on display.

To do that, he needs some vessels that are not going to be saved and some that are.

But that's his choice as the Creator.

Okay, and so this is the thing we have to recognize.

Now let me, let me get some.

We have some comments that came in.

So I want to deal with one one at a time.

Oh, wait, let me back up to the first one that I had here.

So.

Linios says, or lin Yost says, 11 errors presented in the word opposite.

The opposite of life is death.

We have an in incomplete understanding of death.

And that's a valid point because the they that his son says, what's the opposite of life?

And he says, well, I guess death.

Yes and no.

All right, because the idea of eternal life we said is a knowledge of Christ.

Then what's eternal death?

No relationship with Christ.

Okay, Now I don't know if Papa Bear, Odin is from a Jewish background.

Something in this makes me think that because the way he wrote God, okay, to not Jewish people to not commit the.

To break the second commandment of using God's name in vain.

They do not spell out God.

They put G dash D. Okay?

Which you see here.

It's also the reason that we don't know the name.

The word we use for Yahweh or Jehovah, it's because Jewish we don't have.

We only have the consonants.

We don't.

The vowels were never.

They were added centuries later.

So we don't have the vowels because the word there, Yahweh, we would always pronounce adono, which is a totally different word.

And so we don't know what vowels should be there.

So we don't know how to pronounce it, but Papa Baroden says we have a faulty view on life.

Life is the essence of God, not just existing.

Therefore the opposite is separation from God.

Which, which was the point that I, I was just trying to make.

Now Lynn Yost says, I think one of the errors with the word opposite, he said death is opposite of life.

We have an incomplete understanding of death.

Well, I, I argue death is separation.

This is a longer one that Thomas puts up.

He says, thank you so much for this discussion.

I think this is coming at an important time.

I, I hope Kirk Cameron repents.

Luke 12:4.

But I say to you, my friends, do not fear those who kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do.

But I will show you for whom to fear.

Fear the one who after he's killed, has killed, has the authority to cast into hell.

Yes, I tell you, fear him.

Thank the Lord, saves the saints from hell.

And this is one of the verses I was going to go to.

So thank you, Thomas.

We are told not to fear someone who can destroy the body, but body and, but take the body and soul or body and spirit and cast it into hell.

That's the one to fear.

Now some translations say the one that can destroy body and soul.

Now I will say that Thomas, I don't know and I'm saying this just to be honest.

I don't know if Kirk has anything to repent of when you say he.

I hope he repents.

And, and maybe I was going to get this later, but maybe now would be a good time to explain this.

I want us to be careful.

Kirk is having a discussion here where.

And you're going to see us when I play a clip from Ray where he is just giving his.

As he's studying through some things.

And John Harris on Conversations Matter talked about the fact that when you have, when you have a podcast like Kirk does and people that follow, you have to be a little bit more careful when you, when you're just thinking through theology and, and I will credit Kirk in the sense of saying, you know, it's okay, I think for some to, to have the discussion and saying, let, let's, you know, it's just a discussion we're having.

I haven't landed on it.

I haven't come to a conclusion.

That's okay.

You could, you could even have the discussion as we do here, with people where you could say, okay, I understand where you're coming from.

Trying to understand a different position.

I don't think there's anything necessarily wrong with that.

But I don't think Kirk actually took a position yet.

And that's why I say I don't know that he's got something to repent of yet.

And so Papa Bear says annihilationism makes, makes for lazy evangelism.

There's no urgent need if unbelievers just prove just poof.

But it attacks the magnificent sacrifice of Christ.

Thank you.

Because that's the point that I wanted to get to is the fact that when we say that, that are, you know, your judgment is just poof out of existence, no more knowledge.

Now I think what you have is, you're lessening how much the sacrifice of Christ was wanting to think about something.

Our sin is so bad that it took the creator of the universe to become a man, to die on a cross and pay the fine for.

Of eternity that he.

Because he's an eternal nature.

When he died on that cross, it counted for eternity.

Why would he have to do that if our sin is so, so little, so slight?

Why?

The argument we make is that the, the difference between the man made religions where you do works to earn salvation, it's that Christ being God, when he died, having an eternal nature that, that counted forever.

Well, if, if it didn't need to count forever, as as was said on the podcast.

Well, it's a temporal sin.

It was just once in time.

Why should it count?

Well, first off, you, you neglect how sinful and wicked you actually are if you think that.

I mean, think of every single thought you have in your mind.

How many thoughts do you have in a day?

Tens of thousands?

A hundred thousand?

So let's, let's just say you have 10,000 thoughts.

How many of those thoughts are you just thinking purely of God in a righteous way?

Maybe a hundred if you're really good.

A thousand.

So let's go with a thousand.

Okay.

Nine thousand times a day, times 365 days a year, times however old you are.

And that's just you breaking the first commandment that thou shalt put the Lord your God first and foremost in every area of life.

We see, we, we make light of our sin.

We don't see or see how serious our sin is.

It's so serious it took God himself becoming a man to pay the fine for us.

That's how serious it is.

And then we think, oh, but God shouldn't make it, you know, the punishment be forever.

Well, we got a lot of sinning to do or a lot of sending to, to pay for, right, Linost?

Says people are going to hell for rejecting Christ.

God, Christ.

Not because of their finite number of sins.

Well, yes and no.

I mean, I see, I see the point you're making.

We, we will be punished for the sin, but we're also going to be punished for rejecting God.

But you don't, you, you.

We don't go to hell because we haven't believed in Jesus.

We're headed to hell because we break God's law.

We go to heaven because we received Christ.

Right, but we're already headed to hell.

All right.

Tom says we do need to be careful proceeding.

Processing is not necessarily committing.

Yes, and that was my point to your earlier comments, so thank you.

All right.

Rebecca, you have anything you want to comment before we play Ray's comments?

Yeah, I was just.

And yeah, I agree with, you know, with you and the fact that, you know, let's not assume this is Kirk's position.

Was processing it publicly.

I think.

I pray that's not going to be where he lands.

I mean, I, I think he needs our prayers.

I, I mean, I always, I respect and admire him.

I always have and I still do.

And I know there was a point where he was talking about replacement theology a little bit with Israel too.

I don't know whatever happened with that.

So.

But you know, he just, he needs our prayers.

Not, not condemnation or anything.

I mean, he's, I think it's good.

He's, he's brought a lot for people to discuss that.

That's a good thing.

But I did want to hit on what Kirk and his son were arguing.

The second death in Revelation.

I think it's 2014, the Lake of fire being the second death.

We have the first death and the second death.

But they were saying that that must be literal because the Bible calls it.

Scripture calls it death.

But you know, the first death is what we all experience.

We die.

But we know from our scriptures that when we die, our bodies die, our soul lives.

To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.

So in the first death, our soul lives.

So if the first death doesn't result in complete annihilation or, you know, loss of consciousness, then what's to say that the second death does?

Right.

Well, you know, the second death has to.

The first death didn't.

Well, the thing is, is how does death, if you believe it's non existence or separation, how does it get, how does death and Hades get thrown into anything?

Right.

Hades is a place.

Hades is a place.

Right, right, right.

But it got thrown into another place.

Another words right in the.

Yeah, it's the, it's the people, the persons that are in Hades get thrown into the lake of fire.

Like the fire.

So it is the people who are in death that get thrown into the lake of fire.

Now there are some who say that Hades is a place for the, the angels that disobeyed God, the demons go.

And death, you know, and hell is a place where humans go.

I.

There's not enough scripture to explain that, you know, and one of the things is, is that if you listen to the dividing line with James White, he mentioned that there is.

Even though we would hold to the views, we're holding that this.

As we're laying out that the.

Just as there's eternal life, that you live forever conscious, there's an eternal contempt and eternal death that is also conscience forever.

But there are a lot in the scriptures where James White even says that, you know, it's.

There are, There is some ambiguity.

There is some.

It's not as clear as some would like to make it so.

But I do think that when we look at the nature of God, when we look at the scriptures, we come to the conclusion that this second death is forever.

It is a.

It is a conscious torment.

Whether we like it or not, it matters what God says.

Okay.

Yeah, I want to play.

Let me add this in and I'm going to play what Ray Comfort had to say.

So let me play this.

Kirk Cameron has been a dear friend of mine for decades.

I've known him to be a godly man, a man who loves the Lord, his family and the church.

In a world filled with phonies and make believe, especially in Hollywood, I think Kirk's the real deal.

He's not only been a friend of Living waters for nearly 25 years, but we've served in ministry together for a good portion of that time.

Some of you are aware of the fact that Kirk recently shared his questions and developing thoughts about the biblical nature of hell and the.

Okay, I want you to notice what Ray said there, that Kirk shared his opinions on the nature of hell.

He's not saying that Kirk believed it, but he shared his opinions.

Right.

Of the wicked.

And Kirk gave his honest thoughts indicating that he finds the view known as conditional mortality or annihilationism to be both compelling and possibly biblically supported.

Okay, so Ray is saying here, as we said, Kirk isn't saying this is the case, that even if it's.

He holds it, he finds it compelling.

He's thought about it.

This con.

Conditional, you know, view, you know, he's, he's studying it.

He's, he's asking questions and voicing it.

Well, it certainly seemed from some of the things Kirk said on his podcast that he was indicating that this is.

Is now his official view.

When I spoke with him personally on the phone, he told me that while he believes the Bible appears to point in the direction of this view, he's not settled on the matter and is asked for further discussion.

Some now I want to.

That is important for all the people online who are going after Kirk.

Just listen to what Ray just said.

See?

Do you have Kirk's phone number to give him a call?

No.

Ray does Ray.

Did Ray talk to him?

There's a big difference there where so many people are jumping on, ready to call Kirk a heretic.

Let's listen to someone that actually talked to him personally and he's saying he hasn't made that decision.

He's investigating.

He's, he's leaning a certain way, but he hasn't made that conclusion.

And I'm going to tell you why.

It's a danger that you jump on Kirk when we're done with Ray's video.

But that is an important thing.

You have to listen to what is actually being said before you jump on a conclusion.

Oh, this is what he really means.

Don't.

Not so fast.

So Ray actually talked to him on the phone personally to ask about this.

Right.

Someone had asked me whether, you know, whether I could reach out to Kirk, and I, I had to say that, you know, it's, it's pro.

It's been over a decade, I think, since I've, I've spoken to Kirk.

I don't have his contacts anymore, so I have no way of, of reaching out to him, and I don't need to try.

Okay.

I'm gonna give him the benefit of doubt until he makes his position clear.

I want to play the rest of.

Because the reason Ray put this video out is because of the fact that Kirk and Ray worked together.

They did way the Master in the early years TV show.

And so from a ministry perspective, he had to let folks know whether Kirk is involved with the ministry and how this is affecting that.

Because I'm sure that a lot of people were like, oh, Kirk's involved with Living Orders.

I'm going to stop donating.

That'd be a concern since Kirk's hasn't worked for the ministry or with the ministry for like a decade.

But let's, let's let Ray continue.

You have been asking whether or not Living Waters holds his position and whether or not Kirk still works with us in an official capacity, the answer is no.

While we believe Kirk is sincere, we believe that conditional mortality and annihilationism are erroneous views and that the Bible's clear teaching on hell is known as eternal mortal, conscious torment.

We firmly believe that this is the only correct biblical view.

Once again, we're releasing this video because we want to reaffirm that Living Waters does indeed hold to the biblical and historic orthodox doctrine of conscious eternal torment.

With regard to Kirk working with Living Waters.

While we've written books and made television shows together, Kirk has not officially worked here for well over 10 years.

Years.

While the purpose of this video is not to defend the doctrine of conscious eternal punishment, but rather briefly reaffirm our theological position, we do plan to offer a thorough defense of the doctrine on an upcoming Living Waters podcast episode.

That episode will be available on all major podcast platforms and on our ministry's YouTube channel.

We'll announce its release across our social media outlets once it becomes available.

Let me assure you Living Water's mission remains unchanged.

We will continue warning every man and teaching every man and will not waver in our calling to equip Christians to fulfill the great commission, to go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature.

We'll never stop warning people about the reality of eternal punishment in hell and pointing them to the mercy of the Savior.

Now watch as I do just that and these recent interviews and make sure you watch until the end to find out how to get the details of that special podcast.

Okay.

And so with that, we go to the fact that, you know, that is, you know, for Ray, after that, just does give some interviews where he's.

He's sharing the gospel with folks.

And so the.

The point there that I want to mention is the fact that what you see from Ray is, you know, having some grace saying, look, that's not his position yet.

He's studying it out.

And we have to take into account when someone is working through us.

Is it good to do that publicly?

Maybe not.

Okay.

But here's the thing that I see.

I'm going to give a caution as someone who does apologetics.

People love to jump on other people.

And this goes back to the article I started with at the very beginning.

Go to truscript and what you could do.

I'm actually going to bring it up here and share it.

So if you go to truscript, you can see my article that I wrote on ministry versus platform building.

And there's a. I Start off by saying that there is a dangerous drift.

And so if you.

So if you go to truscript.com search for ministry versus platform building or just search for my name, you'll see the articles.

I, I'll probably continue writing more articles of truscript and you'll see more articles there.

So.

And actually, what I could tell you is if you go out and want to.

Let's go to Truth Script.

There's an article by John Harris on Kirk Cameron's annihilationism that he wrote quite, you know, recently.

So that's out here as well.

All right.

So I just want to point that out.

If you guys want to go and check that out, that's something that you can do.

But that talks about this whole thing of what I'm concerned about.

What I'm concerned about is the fact that there are so many people that, that what they do is they want to jump on to attack someone because, oh, I can get views by doing this.

There's a reason so many people jump on things right away.

They want to be the first one to deal with it.

We're not the first one to deal with it here, but I want to deal with it because I would like us to look at what the doctrine is and what it teaches.

It's one of the many things I have on my backlog of topics, so it was made sense to bring it up now.

So let me give the caution.

If you really are concerned about Kirk Cameron, then the thing you shouldn't be doing is telling him he needs to repent.

He's going to hell.

He's a sinner, he's a heretic.

What that does is push people into the view that you're telling them they should avoid.

Okay, I saw this with, with someone who I used to be friends with, Mark Cahill.

He takes a view that he thinks.

He was taking a view that he thought that Calvinism was dangerous.

He didn't like it, but he really didn't have a good understanding of it at the time.

Still doesn't.

But because a whole bunch of people wanted to publicly out him and make it a public issue.

And I said to those people, like, stop, because there's some of us that know him privately and we're working with him.

And by pushing this to be a public thing, you're gonna, you could push him to become defensive and he's going to run right into the hands of these Pelagianists who it's is exactly what he did.

Because they were saying, oh, we agree with you, we agree with you.

And he ran right into their, their arms, per se, and started to, to promote the stuff they were saying and then believing even further what, what they were holding.

Sinless perfection, things like this is what they were pushing.

And so I, I say that to say, first off, he, he hasn't made a position.

Give him a chance.

But at the same time, we should not be looking to jump on someone so quickly just so we can get clicks and likes and views.

Stop being Candace, Owen.

Oh, okay.

But what are you more concerned about, your platform or the truth?

Okay, that's the thing with all these people I see jumping on Kirk right away to say how heretical he is.

I think that there's a danger there because people want to make sure that they're the ones that people are following rather than saying, let's, let's be truthful about things.

Do you have to point out everyone's error?

No, but the question is, are you doing it so people will follow you or follow Christ?

I want each one of us following Christ.

Okay?

And so I do think there's a danger with folks just jumping on telling them that, saying that he's a heretic when he hasn't even given his position.

That's why I wanted to play Ray's video.

So you saw Ray talk to him personally?

I haven't, I haven't.

I haven't spoken to Kirk in, in over 10 years.

I don't have.

I didn't talk to him personally, but I'm going to trust Ray who did.

And I didn't hear him make a position.

I heard him mention what others say is the position.

And, and so here I like what Pap.

Baroden says is we should pray for wisdom.

Pray.

Pray.

He pray for wisdom for Kirk.

Okay.

Pray that, that, that, that would be something that he would, he would change his view on where, you know, like not change his view, but that he wouldn't go down this road.

Okay, so, you know, when we look at the biblical teaching of hell, there's a lot of passages that we could turn to.

We turned to some already.

But the whole idea is, is the, Did God create the human spirit to be eternal or immortal or not?

And is it part of the human nature to be immortal?

Now, some are going to argue, well, see, in the Garden of Eden, if they would have eaten of that tree of life, they would have lasted forever.

And therefore they aren't created to be immortal.

They're only immortal when they have eternal.

When they get eternal life, when they receive Christ.

Okay?

That's their argument.

I wouldn't hold that argument.

I would say that just as that we have eternal life, Daniel 12:2, we have eternal or everlasting contempt.

In other words, everlasting punishment.

So whether you hold to, you know, the, the different views, whether it be annihilationism, where you go out of existence, this conditional view where you come back into exit, you sleep, then come back into existence so that you could be punished for a second, I mean, that's not really a contempt, by the way.

Non existence is not a punishment or contempt.

It's non existence.

You don't know.

Like, so you violated God and your punishment is you don't know it because you don't exist.

That's not a punishment.

How does that, how is God just then?

God only gives good, he doesn't give bad, you know?

No.

So I, I know it sounds, it feels good.

But see, the point that I was making earlier is that God is infinitely just and as a just judge.

This is Psalm 7, verse 11.

God is a just judge and angry with the wicked every day.

Yes, he's a loving God, but he's also an infinitely just, infinitely holy and infinitely wrathful God against sin.

That's why the punishment fits the crime.

We just make light of our crime to say it's, oh, it's a temporal thing, it's not a big deal, but it's not a, It's a very big deal.

Okay.

And that's why, because God is an infinite being, it has a forever consequence.

This is why Christ had to come to die on a cross.

And, and therefore, when we look at hell is something that helps us to realize that we should be out evangelizing.

I think it is a motivating factor for us to warn the loss of, of the, the everlasting present punishment they will be in.

They will be conscious for it.

And so this is what I, I think scripture teaches about hell.

It is a place where there is conscious punishment.

Whether you like it or not doesn't matter.

It matters whether God says it's true.

Anything else that you want to add, Rebecca?

No, I think that was it.

I know I've been doing most of the talking.

Okay, so folks, I want to, I want to recommend, if you guys would just share these.

I should have mentioned it much earlier in the show, but if you guys have questions, come to apologizelive.com you know, if not, we're going to end up ending early, but you can go to apologexlive.com and join there.

That is the Best thing to do.

But would you guys share this so that others know we're live?

I meant to do that much earlier because that way folks can know to come in and, and, you know, engage with us.

So here's a question that comes in and you can go to YouTube to ask questions as others have been doing, or comments.

So we have a question.

How can one confirm whether they.

Whether or not they themselves have the Holy Spirit?

So this is a really good and very important question.

I can say this.

I cannot tell you whether you have the Holy Spirit because I'm not God.

You can't tell me whether I have the Holy Spirit because you're not God.

And so hold on one second.

Papa Bear is saying I can't load the page.

You should.

If you go to apologexlive.com it should bring you to the.

Actually bring you to a page on striving for eternity.

And that will.

If you scroll down, you'll see a duck icon.

You just click on that.

If you're having trouble loading the page, maybe try it either clean clear your cache or try it in a private window or maybe try a different browser.

Hey, Andrew.

Depends if, if he's doing it, is he doing it over his phone?

Because when I.

In order to find that duck icon, scrolling down gets you nowhere.

You have to.

I had to scroll left.

And then the duck icon came up.

I swiped left.

Okay, so maybe.

So maybe swipe left.

So to the question of, of having the Holy Spirit, one thing you have to recognize, and this is just a way when people tell me they struggle with assurance of salvation, whether to know whether, you know, how do we know we're saved?

And one of the things, I think people struggle with salvation for one of two reasons.

They're saved, but there's some sin in their life that they know they're doing wrong.

They're not close to God, they're not reading their Bible, they're not praying, and they know they're in sin.

And so they're questioning whether they're saved.

Or two, they're not saved, but they're in a Christian environment.

They.

They have some knowledge of Christianity and their guilty conscience is causing them to.

To question you.

It's usually one of those two.

So how can we know?

I. I think the way that we could know is a question that only you can answer.

And the question is, do you hate your sin or do you hate your.

The consequences of your sin?

Okay, It's.

It's important to know that difference.

The, the difference is because what we're saying there is if I hate the consequences, I hate that people are going to find out that I'm a glutton.

Well, there I just spilled the beans.

But I, I don't like the consequences of that.

In fact, I, you know, I didn't like the consequences of my gluttony.

So that's one of the reasons I used to run so much, to cover up my sin.

And so do I hate my gluttony or do I just hate that people see that I'm fat?

Right.

That would be the difference.

I, because Christ died for me.

I hate the sin itself, self, because this is what Christ died for.

But if an unbeliever, I, I'm still being selfish.

So I only hate the fact that the consequence of it, I, I don't like that people will know about it, that I don't like the, the something's going to happen to me.

But see, the believer is about Christ and the unbelievers about self.

So I hope that answers the question.

Let me bring Arthur in.

I think this, this is it, possibly could be Papa Bear, Odin, but I don't know.

Welcome to the show.

So when I first heard Kurt talk about it, this was when on this show I, I was worried that he was an instant annihilationism.

I mean, theoretically you could say, well, annihilationism after they serve so long because you know, in revelations they talk about after the thousand years, right?

The, the devil's thrown back in after the millennial reign, right?

The devil is thrown into the pit of fell after being released from the abyss and trying another revolt, that the, the Antichrist and the false prophet are still there.

So at least that for the last a thousand years, that maybe he was trying to go, maybe it's not eternal and it's just, you know, you know, a thousand years, ten thousand years, something like that.

And it made sense.

But the more I thought about it, the more I realized that the story of Penn Gillette, I don't know if you know his story, but he says, how much do you have to hate somebody to believe in eternal conscious torment and not preach the gospel, to not try to convert everybody?

If you see somebody thrown into, you know, about to get hit by a truck, how much would you risk, you know, how, how hard would you try to push them out of the way?

Well, this is eternal conscious torment.

How much do you have to hate somebody?

Not three times.

So annihilationism gives them the opportunity to sit here and be like, well, it's not forever they were bad people.

They didn't believe in Jesus.

I don't have to talk to that person.

I think more Christians.

I think Christians find it uncomfortable because it calls on them to have to act, and they don't like that.

Evangelism is not something that comes easy to a whole lot of people.

They're.

They're intimidated.

The world is this big, bad, scary place, and they don't want to talk about it, you know, because.

Especially in the Christian church, like, I. I've been all over the world.

But in.

In the American Christian church, we.

We hear terms that are basically bumper stickers or slogans on T shirts.

Is the depth of most of their faith where they sit here?

And, you know, I have my own personal faith.

I have my own.

You know, I worship in my own way, and that is so unbiblical.

But it is accepted in a lot of churches.

A lot of denominations are okay with letting certain stuff slide, you know, because God is love.

That's one aspect.

And if God really is love, it has to be a disciplined love.

It's tough.

It's hard.

Yeah, I see that.

Knowing that I'm a huge sinner and I am a worm.

I. I am totally aware of that, that I can't speak and I can't judge anybody for their beliefs because I know how, you know, depraved I was.

Still am sometimes.

Yeah.

So I get it.

But.

But you should embrace that eternal conscious torment to get you to stay here and want to push so that people don't stay there.

You know, they talk about how it should motivate us toward evangelism.

It should.

And.

And I can't remember.

I. I know it's in Revelation, but I can't remember when it talks about that they are in eternal conscious torment, but they are still in the presence.

Of God, you know?

Yeah, that's.

You know, you make a good point, because a lot of people think that.

Oh.

Because this is the way it says on a gospel tract.

Right.

God can't be in the presence of sin, and that's why we can't go to heaven.

But something's happening with your audio there, Arthur.

It got better there.

Okay, so.

So.

It'S back.

I don't know what's going on.

I think.

I think we.

He may be having bad signals.

Looks like his connection may not be so good.

Yeah, that's why I don't have my camera on, so I'll just log off.

But, yeah, I. I just wanted to, you know, encourage people to embrace eternal conscious torment.

So that you can sit here and, you know, be motivated to go speak, because you don't.

How much do you have to hate the person to not speak about God's saving grace and Jesus Christ sacrifice on the cross?

And that was Pendulettes.

You're right.

That was Pendulette's point when he said that was the fact that, you know, does have an effect.

If, if you really believe that someone's going to go to hell, you're gonna, you know, he said if you think if someone's gonna get hit by a truck, you're gonna, you're gonna jump to push them out of the way at some point.

Right.

And so, you know, Arthur's point is this, this should motivate us, but it does go back to the fact of the.

We have a low view of our sin, which causes us to have a low view of who God is.

So, you know, really, the concept of annihilation really is music to the ears of an unbeliever, you know, that belief.

But the, the verse that Arthur was referring to was Revelation 14:10 that says he will also.

He also will drink the wine of God's wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.

Yeah.

Well, Arthur, thanks for coming in.

I appreciate it.

Thank you.

All right, let me just put a comment up here from Dr. Ed Romine.

Gotta calm Dr.

He's got, he says, doesn't ect assume that sinners can indeed pay off their respective sin debts in full?

I don't know what he's got about Catholics and evangelicals together.

Oh, wait, no, no.

He, he meant eternal conscious torment.

So he says, doesn't eternal conscious torment assume that sinners can indeed pay off the.

Their respective sin debts in full?

Well, the, the idea is that you never can come to the end of paying your sin debt.

Right?

And so that's the thing, is that we, we.

Our.

Our sin is so bad that it took Christ coming, Christ being an eternal being, to pay it.

That's the thing.

And so we, we have to recognize the fact that, you know, our sin is very serious in God's eyes.

And no, we can't work it off.

We can never pay it off.

So we have.

So this is back to the earlier question about the Holy Spirit is First Corinthians 3.

First.

Sorry, First Corinthians 12.

Three is confirmation.

The reason I asked about the Holy Spirit is because I long to have a relationship with him, like the 12 disciples and others.

Do you know what I mean?

And so First Corinthians 12:3 says, Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God says Jesus is accursed.

And no one can say Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit.

So yeah, that would be true.

In other words, if you have someone that's denying Christ as second as first John chapter 2, verse 19 says, if they go out from among us, they, they were never of us.

They go out from us to expose that they were never of us or not of us.

And so we can't say, the argument is to say Jesus is Lord.

We can't, we can't say he's accursed and be a believer.

When you say you want to have a relationship like the apostles, you're never going to have a relationship like the apostles or like anyone else.

You're going to have a relationship the way you would have a relationship.

Don't desire what you think someone else has, but desire just you knowing Christ, that should be enough.

I, I hope because to, to be known by Christ, to know Christ, to be adopted into his family, we don't deserve that.

And it's something that should humble us.

And again, it's not about us, it's about Christ.

He.

If we heard earlier, I, I said, but God saves us not because we deserve it, but because we don't deserve it.

He saves us for himself so that he could display his attributes.

That's what Romans 9 says.

He saves us not because we were worthy or there's anything about us.

He saved us.

We benefit from the byproduct of him wanting to display his mercy.

That should humble us.

It should make us realize that we're pretty lowly, but he's pretty great.

In fact, infinitely great.

So I guess we'll call tonight there.

I'll give Rebecca, give you a last chance.

Anything you want to share or.

You know what, what are you going to be talking about on your next episode of your podcast?

Well, actually I just recorded an episode with a guest on Lukewarm Christianity.

It's gonna be a two part episode.

I just gotta edit it and post it and it'll be out.

Oh good.

So.

So then I can critique it before I hear it.

There you go.

I don't think there is anything so called Lukewarm Christianity if you're getting it out of Revelation.

Yeah, lesson.

That's one of the questions we ask.

Yep.

All right, so.

So does that mean I gotta wait to hear it and then yeah.

All right, well, I'll just say this.

Revelation, chapter three, the.

The angel comes to Laodicea and refers to cold water and hot water.

They had two types of water in that area.

They had the cold springs that came down from the mountains.

They.

They had hot springs that were bubbling up from within.

Both are useful, beneficial.

But he refers to lukewarm, which you spit out of your mouth.

It's not refreshing cold water that you want to drink.

And it's not hot water that you want to jump in like a hot tub.

It's just something that's useless.

So he's.

He's not.

I'm just going to say there's never a time that God calls us to be cold spiritually.

Some of you go, God wants you hot for.

For Christ or cold for Christ, but he doesn't want you lukewarm.

Christ never wants you cold for Christ.

Right, right.

It's a.

It's a big insult when you claim his name and then you do not live accordingly.

Yeah, you know, but.

But yeah, we talked about those different types of water and stuff.

Yeah.

So like I said, two part episode.

It got a little long, but it was good.

It was good.

Hopefully people will enjoy it.

All right, so that will be one little candle.

So go follow that podcast.

Thomas will probably give you the final comment, but he says, good discussion.

Let's pray for our friends.

That's a good way to end it.

Now with that, I do want to let you guys know.

Next week, I will be out in Boise.

Some of you know my friend Matt Slick, his wife, his.

His wonderful bride, Nick has gone to be with the Lord because.

Yeah, because of the quickness in which they did the funeral there.

This because the family was there.

So many of us are going to be with Matt, you know, for the.

You know, just reminisce, think about Nick.

And so we will.

There'll be several of us up there.

So there will be no show next week because unless something happens where I say, hey, you guys want to do a show with.

At Matt's house, maybe?

So there'll be no show on that week.

The following week is Christmas Day, and I doubt any of you are going to be wanting to watch a live show.

So there'll be no show that day, and the next week is New Year's Eve.

So basically what I'm saying is there'll be no show until next year.

All right?

So please try to remember that.

But I do encourage you guys to.

To share this if you can.

And so.

Oh, someone is asking when will your.

I think they're talking about your podcast.

When will your podcast be out?

Oh, my episode?

Yeah.

I'd say in about two weeks.

Two weeks.

All right.

Yep.

And Arthur is asking, should we discuss Tim Pool next?

I don't know enough about Tim Pool.

I just know.

I know there was a kind of a threat on his life, and that was about it.

And he's blaming Candace for it.

That's about all I know.

Didn't follow it enough that I could talk about it.

So sorry about that.

So with that, I want to encourage you guys to strive to make today an eternal day for the glory of God.

And we'll see you next time.

Have a great night.