1 00:00:00,012 --> 00:00:04,002 When we're up against a challenging person, a difficult colleague, or 2 00:00:04,002 --> 00:00:08,742 an angry patient, our amygdala gets activated and our nervous system goes into 3 00:00:08,742 --> 00:00:10,782 fight, flight, freeze, or foreign mode. 4 00:00:11,052 --> 00:00:15,372 in our Shapes Toolkit training we describe this as being backed into the corner. 5 00:00:15,672 --> 00:00:19,812 We can find it especially hard to deal with other people's anger, particularly 6 00:00:19,812 --> 00:00:24,852 if it triggers something from our past experiences and our reaction is often 7 00:00:24,852 --> 00:00:29,412 to appease the angry person rather than saying, hang on a minute, I don't 8 00:00:29,412 --> 00:00:31,212 think I should be spoken to like that. 9 00:00:31,606 --> 00:00:35,506 This week, Dr. Claire Plumbly, clinical psychologist and author, is back on 10 00:00:35,506 --> 00:00:40,756 the podcast to talk about how we can regulate our own nervous systems to 11 00:00:40,756 --> 00:00:45,316 avoid those feelings of anger and frustration being transferred onto us. 12 00:00:45,920 --> 00:00:49,370 In our work and our lives, we'll inevitably come across difficult 13 00:00:49,370 --> 00:00:53,480 people or reasonable people who are just in a tricky situation. 14 00:00:53,930 --> 00:00:58,700 But this episode will help you understand what's happening in your own body and 15 00:00:58,700 --> 00:01:02,955 give you tools to work with the other person so you can protect your boundaries 16 00:01:03,225 --> 00:01:05,175 whilst respecting their feelings. 17 00:01:07,136 --> 00:01:11,186 If you're in a high stress, high stakes, still blank medicine, and you're feeling 18 00:01:11,186 --> 00:01:16,642 stressed or overwhelmed, burning out or getting out are not your only options. 19 00:01:16,872 --> 00:01:20,802 I'm Dr. Rachel Morris, and welcome to You Are Not a Frog. 20 00:01:25,065 --> 00:01:27,136 Hello, I'm Dr. Claire Plumbly. 21 00:01:27,156 --> 00:01:33,516 I'm a clinical psychologist specializing in trauma and in burnout, and I'm also 22 00:01:33,516 --> 00:01:35,436 an author on the topic of burnout. 23 00:01:35,436 --> 00:01:38,286 I've written a book called Burnout, how to Manage Your Nerve 24 00:01:38,286 --> 00:01:40,146 System before It Manages You. 25 00:01:40,566 --> 00:01:44,556 And I also run an associate practice of psychologists and therapists 26 00:01:44,556 --> 00:01:45,391 who help people with these issues. 27 00:01:46,054 --> 00:01:48,199 It's wonderful to have you back on the podcast, Claire. 28 00:01:48,199 --> 00:01:51,019 We were trying to work out, you've been three times already, I think. 29 00:01:51,019 --> 00:01:52,609 Yes, and I love it. 30 00:01:52,609 --> 00:01:53,629 I keep coming back for more. 31 00:01:54,049 --> 00:01:55,099 You keep coming back. 32 00:01:55,099 --> 00:01:59,569 You were one of our keynote speakers at our Work Well Live conference, and I just, 33 00:01:59,569 --> 00:02:04,219 I just love your work and I think it's so important for us to hear about it because 34 00:02:04,489 --> 00:02:09,649 we are just starting to understand so much more, aren't we, about our nervous systems 35 00:02:09,649 --> 00:02:15,289 and particularly the, this new, well, it's new to me, this new theory, polyvagal 36 00:02:15,319 --> 00:02:19,219 theory for, for people that haven't heard that before, can you summarize polyvagal 37 00:02:19,219 --> 00:02:20,959 theory for us in like two sentences? 38 00:02:21,211 --> 00:02:24,571 It is a fairly new theory, so it's not your fault that you haven't heard of it. 39 00:02:24,571 --> 00:02:27,781 It's not been around for many years, and it's only really starting to trickle 40 00:02:27,781 --> 00:02:32,221 down into the therapy therapy world in the last, like five to 10 years. 41 00:02:32,411 --> 00:02:36,221 But it's a, it's an updated theory of the autonomic nervous system. 42 00:02:36,641 --> 00:02:39,131 Most people will have heard of the idea that you've got the 43 00:02:39,131 --> 00:02:42,191 parasympathetic and the sympathetic branches of the nervous system. 44 00:02:42,341 --> 00:02:44,921 So we tend to understand the parasympathetic being the the 45 00:02:44,921 --> 00:02:47,981 mode we are in when we are pretty regulated and calm, and then we 46 00:02:47,981 --> 00:02:51,701 go up into the sympathetic nervous system when stresses are coming in. 47 00:02:51,971 --> 00:02:56,496 It just builds on that, to explain that actually the parasympathetic 48 00:02:56,496 --> 00:02:58,716 part of the nervous system is slightly more complicated. 49 00:02:58,716 --> 00:03:02,556 There's two branches within that, the ventral vagal and the dorsal vagal. 50 00:03:02,856 --> 00:03:06,906 The ventral vagal is the bit that tends to be the bit where we are calm 51 00:03:06,906 --> 00:03:11,556 and, and kind of feeling able to think clearly and deal with, um, everyday 52 00:03:11,586 --> 00:03:13,596 stuff in a kind of regulated way. 53 00:03:13,596 --> 00:03:19,276 And then the, um, dorsal is more the kind of place we go to when we are 54 00:03:19,276 --> 00:03:23,176 overwhelmed and completely flooded and the sympathetic nervous system hasn't 55 00:03:23,176 --> 00:03:25,426 enabled us to deal with incoming stresses. 56 00:03:25,606 --> 00:03:27,316 So that's the fight or flight response. 57 00:03:27,316 --> 00:03:32,326 If they have failed us or the, um, there's nowhere to escape, we will go into this 58 00:03:32,326 --> 00:03:36,706 kind of more closed down shutdown place, immobilization for safety essentially. 59 00:03:36,986 --> 00:03:41,116 And so why is it so important that we sort of understand this, 60 00:03:41,146 --> 00:03:42,796 this quite complex neurology? 61 00:03:43,059 --> 00:03:46,809 I think, and where I started using it way more in my work early on 62 00:03:46,809 --> 00:03:51,579 was because it explained the stress response in a more nuanced way. 63 00:03:51,819 --> 00:03:55,899 So rather than just being the kind of fight or flight or freeze, which I used 64 00:03:55,899 --> 00:03:59,739 to kind of use in my psychoeducation and therapy, it helped people to 65 00:03:59,769 --> 00:04:03,309 understand why in sessions, for example, they appear to just shut down. 66 00:04:03,393 --> 00:04:08,373 If we mentioned a word or a phrase or a memory, that was really overwhelming 67 00:04:08,373 --> 00:04:11,223 for them, it, it kind of, they would close down and look like they 68 00:04:11,223 --> 00:04:14,823 weren't really paying attention or connected, they'd be dissociating. 69 00:04:15,183 --> 00:04:18,093 Um, so it helped me to understand this process in the therapy room. 70 00:04:18,093 --> 00:04:20,013 So that's why I learned a little bit more about it. 71 00:04:20,283 --> 00:04:22,443 And of course, whatever happens in the therapy room is happening 72 00:04:22,443 --> 00:04:23,478 outside the therapy room. 73 00:04:23,923 --> 00:04:30,622 So when people go into that more Kind of appease kind of place or unable to, get 74 00:04:30,622 --> 00:04:35,902 moving and motivate themselves, they're very shut down in a physical way and a 75 00:04:35,902 --> 00:04:40,762 kind of cognitive way, you can't really think of imaginative answers or ability 76 00:04:40,762 --> 00:04:45,382 to kind of see far into the future, these are people with when I'm setting goals 77 00:04:45,382 --> 00:04:50,137 with them, doing the smart goal setting just doesn't really work very well because 78 00:04:50,137 --> 00:04:53,407 they can't really see what, what they would like to do other than just not 79 00:04:53,407 --> 00:04:55,417 be in this really rubbish place here. 80 00:04:55,567 --> 00:04:56,437 They just don't wanna be here. 81 00:04:56,827 --> 00:05:00,667 Um, and so it kind of just helped explain, you know, that 82 00:05:00,667 --> 00:05:02,827 level of kind of close downness. 83 00:05:02,979 --> 00:05:06,729 I think understanding ourselves is absolutely key to then being able to 84 00:05:06,819 --> 00:05:10,659 manage ourselves and manage, manage the situations and change what we're doing. 85 00:05:10,659 --> 00:05:14,349 And the reason I think your work is so important is that obviously you 86 00:05:14,349 --> 00:05:18,519 know our listeners a lot of them are doctors, nurses, senior healthcare 87 00:05:18,519 --> 00:05:21,789 professionals, working in these really high stress situations that 88 00:05:21,789 --> 00:05:23,319 are really high stakes as well. 89 00:05:23,319 --> 00:05:25,749 You know, literally people's lives are at stake. 90 00:05:26,169 --> 00:05:31,479 And if we dunno how to manage our nervous systems properly, then we're. 91 00:05:32,539 --> 00:05:35,929 Really up against it when we're sort of adding to the stress of not just 92 00:05:35,929 --> 00:05:40,009 like the overwhelming demand and the, the, the difficulty of the work, but 93 00:05:40,009 --> 00:05:45,289 we're layering on top things that just completely sort of stymie our 94 00:05:45,289 --> 00:05:50,269 performance, which is why I think your work is so important and so useful. 95 00:05:50,269 --> 00:05:54,319 And so one of the things we wanted to talk about on this podcast was tricky 96 00:05:54,319 --> 00:06:00,175 people, because not only are our listeners working in very often, very technical, 97 00:06:00,175 --> 00:06:04,245 tricky situations, you know, where you can make a practical mistake or a 98 00:06:04,245 --> 00:06:08,280 problem solving mistake, but we're also working with people who are frighten 99 00:06:08,280 --> 00:06:12,330 themselves, who are, who are difficult, who are also overloaded, who are stressed. 100 00:06:12,330 --> 00:06:15,690 And let's face it, no one is at their best when they come to hospital 101 00:06:15,690 --> 00:06:17,820 or go to the doctors, pretty much. 102 00:06:18,300 --> 00:06:22,440 And none of our colleagues are at their best when they are feeling 103 00:06:22,440 --> 00:06:26,160 overloaded, when they haven't got enough resources, when they are 104 00:06:26,160 --> 00:06:27,930 worried about their own performance. 105 00:06:27,930 --> 00:06:31,770 And so we all become tricky people, quite frankly. 106 00:06:31,770 --> 00:06:37,110 But the question I have is, why does some tricky people trigger. 107 00:06:37,555 --> 00:06:40,255 Certain of us more than other people? 108 00:06:40,255 --> 00:06:43,285 And there are other people tricky that other people find really tricky, that 109 00:06:43,285 --> 00:06:46,795 I'm totally fine with, but there are some people that I'm like, oh my God, 110 00:06:46,795 --> 00:06:49,345 that person is, is is really difficult. 111 00:06:49,808 --> 00:06:50,918 Let's just get it all out there. 112 00:06:50,918 --> 00:06:54,008 What are the universal things that people react to badly in 113 00:06:54,008 --> 00:06:56,498 other people all the time anyway? 114 00:06:56,598 --> 00:07:01,548 I mean, being criticized, someone behaving unpredictably, someone 115 00:07:01,548 --> 00:07:06,378 behaving in a kind of gaslighting or passive aggressive way, or being 116 00:07:06,618 --> 00:07:09,348 like attacking, um, putting you down. 117 00:07:09,697 --> 00:07:12,697 Something really pisses me off when people don't listen when they're just 118 00:07:12,697 --> 00:07:15,367 talking the whole time, and it's all about their opinion and they're not, 119 00:07:15,667 --> 00:07:20,377 they're not listening to other people or, or noticing, but I'm thinking all 120 00:07:20,377 --> 00:07:24,997 of those is it, that's very open to interpretation actually, if someone's 121 00:07:24,997 --> 00:07:27,187 being passive aggressive or attacking or. 122 00:07:27,443 --> 00:07:27,843 You are right? 123 00:07:27,873 --> 00:07:28,163 Yeah. 124 00:07:28,223 --> 00:07:30,603 And I think that's something to try and separate out, isn't it? 125 00:07:30,877 --> 00:07:34,237 So I suppose if you were, if you interpret that way, then universally 126 00:07:34,237 --> 00:07:35,767 that would be quite triggering. 127 00:07:35,827 --> 00:07:40,747 But it's possible that our history can make it more likely sometimes that 128 00:07:40,747 --> 00:07:42,817 we will interpret cues in that way. 129 00:07:42,877 --> 00:07:45,697 That definitely is something that happens and we have to unpick. 130 00:07:46,300 --> 00:07:48,430 Sorry, I keep talking about It's cool, comes back to the 131 00:07:48,460 --> 00:07:49,840 history, but it is so relevant. 132 00:07:50,320 --> 00:07:51,250 Well, it does, it does. 133 00:07:51,250 --> 00:07:54,400 You know, I know in my family, you know, my, I grew up in, my grandmother 134 00:07:54,400 --> 00:07:58,785 was Swiss, French Swiss, and she was very expressive, you know, and so my, 135 00:07:58,810 --> 00:08:03,220 my family, we would have these very loud debates at the dinner table, 136 00:08:03,220 --> 00:08:06,288 like pretty much shouting at each other, but they were borderline, but 137 00:08:06,288 --> 00:08:10,218 they, but they were, you know, sort of quite loud talky debates, let's say. 138 00:08:10,578 --> 00:08:15,408 My husband's family didn't have any of that, and so if I, if I raise my voice and 139 00:08:15,408 --> 00:08:19,868 I'm talking like this, he often interprets it as me being very angry and aggressive. 140 00:08:20,281 --> 00:08:24,091 I'm not, I'm just sort of making a point and it's not, I'm not angry at all, but 141 00:08:24,121 --> 00:08:28,111 then he'll say, don't need to shout at me, and that will then really piss me off. 142 00:08:28,141 --> 00:08:32,851 'Cause I'm like, I was having a perfectly nice, natural, normal conversation. 143 00:08:33,691 --> 00:08:35,311 Suddenly I'm accused of shouting me and angry. 144 00:08:35,311 --> 00:08:35,731 I'm not. 145 00:08:35,731 --> 00:08:38,881 I'm just being, I think exercised is the word. 146 00:08:39,001 --> 00:08:40,111 So, yeah. 147 00:08:40,116 --> 00:08:44,221 So there's, there's me, my background, and then there's him interpreting my behavior. 148 00:08:44,221 --> 00:08:47,221 So it, it's all, it's all quite subtle, but there is some 149 00:08:47,221 --> 00:08:49,198 behavior that is just blatantly 150 00:08:49,716 --> 00:08:51,811 Okay, so should we go back to what the blatant ones are? 151 00:08:51,811 --> 00:08:55,160 I think being, having someone being rude. 152 00:08:55,745 --> 00:08:56,780 I dunno what I mean. 153 00:08:56,780 --> 00:08:57,530 It, I think 154 00:08:57,605 --> 00:08:59,495 it's hard because even with culture, right? 155 00:08:59,495 --> 00:09:03,725 Sometimes things that we interpret as rude, it all blunt, rude 156 00:09:03,785 --> 00:09:07,040 actually that in culturally for people, that's, that's fine. 157 00:09:07,589 --> 00:09:07,859 Yeah. 158 00:09:07,859 --> 00:09:10,649 Maybe that, maybe that's a tricky question because I don't think it's 159 00:09:10,679 --> 00:09:15,001 necessarily gonna be, it's, you've gotta think about context and that's what 160 00:09:15,001 --> 00:09:16,351 you're always saying in, in therapy. 161 00:09:16,351 --> 00:09:17,491 What was the context? 162 00:09:17,826 --> 00:09:19,273 And there's observable behavior, isn't it? 163 00:09:19,273 --> 00:09:22,663 If someone's really rude and criticizes you, like in front of everybody 164 00:09:22,663 --> 00:09:23,893 and, and tells you, you're right. 165 00:09:23,983 --> 00:09:26,143 That that is pretty, that is pretty blatant. 166 00:09:26,143 --> 00:09:28,723 If someone ignores you when you are speaking, that is 167 00:09:28,723 --> 00:09:29,713 really blatant, isn't it? 168 00:09:29,713 --> 00:09:32,983 So there are things that if we interpret that as the behavior that will, 169 00:09:33,043 --> 00:09:34,273 that will particularly trigger us. 170 00:09:34,759 --> 00:09:37,759 What are the other categories of things that you see people who have maybe 171 00:09:37,759 --> 00:09:42,439 had certain traumas or wounds or or past experiences tend to get extra 172 00:09:42,439 --> 00:09:44,569 triggered by that other people might not? 173 00:09:44,911 --> 00:09:48,781 I think it's just all of like the interpretation of that, when something's 174 00:09:48,781 --> 00:09:53,521 ambiguous will be misinterpreted as being, yeah, that is being controlling 175 00:09:53,521 --> 00:09:56,761 or that is being passive aggressive and, and it's more likely to jump to 176 00:09:56,761 --> 00:09:58,951 that conclusion than it being neutral. 177 00:09:59,511 --> 00:10:04,161 And to assume you've got a bigger role in the cause for that, rather 178 00:10:04,161 --> 00:10:08,366 than thinking about the external reasons that someone might have had. 179 00:10:08,726 --> 00:10:11,156 And I think it's always interesting when you're watching something play 180 00:10:11,156 --> 00:10:12,266 out that you're not involved in. 181 00:10:12,266 --> 00:10:15,476 If you've ever kind of been in a waiting room, for example, you've seen someone 182 00:10:15,476 --> 00:10:19,076 kind of being passed over several times and then they finally blow a gasket at 183 00:10:19,076 --> 00:10:22,166 somebody who's nothing to do with it, and I think that's always a helpful 184 00:10:22,166 --> 00:10:23,516 observer role, isn't it to take. 185 00:10:23,846 --> 00:10:26,366 Um, but often if you're in the thick of it and you're just on the 186 00:10:26,366 --> 00:10:29,606 attacking end, you find that quite hard to kind of do that, stepping 187 00:10:29,606 --> 00:10:31,196 back and taking in the wider picture. 188 00:10:31,697 --> 00:10:35,236 So we're more likely, if we've had like difficult experiences in the past, we're 189 00:10:35,236 --> 00:10:40,066 more likely to, to personalize somebody else's behavior and the responses rather 190 00:10:40,066 --> 00:10:43,336 say if they're angry and aggravated rather than it's, they're having a bad day. 191 00:10:43,336 --> 00:10:45,496 The patient they've just been with was really difficult. 192 00:10:45,496 --> 00:10:47,236 It's like, oh no, what did I say? 193 00:10:47,262 --> 00:10:48,462 Why don't they like me? 194 00:10:48,522 --> 00:10:50,952 Why did I, why they angry at me? 195 00:10:50,982 --> 00:10:52,662 Rather than just seeing, seeing the whole thing. 196 00:10:52,662 --> 00:10:54,282 So we personalize things more. 197 00:10:54,332 --> 00:10:58,172 And, and also to say, I think, um, well my experience in therapy has certainly 198 00:10:58,172 --> 00:11:03,962 been that text message con communication can cause a real problem for people who, 199 00:11:03,962 --> 00:11:08,642 you know, are more sensitive to needing the social cues around it, rather than 200 00:11:08,642 --> 00:11:14,042 just like, as the amount of agonizing And what does this mean without the 201 00:11:14,042 --> 00:11:16,857 extra bo d language facial expressions. 202 00:11:17,271 --> 00:11:20,811 I mean, just to say about that, to link it to the nervous system as we started 203 00:11:20,811 --> 00:11:27,081 there, um, humans are social creatures, so we are wired for that social safety. 204 00:11:27,111 --> 00:11:31,613 So our, our nervous system is always on and looking around for cues of 205 00:11:31,613 --> 00:11:35,513 safety, not just in our environment, but in the people around us. 206 00:11:35,813 --> 00:11:42,383 So if someone's got a very still face or a stern looking face, or their eyes, 207 00:11:42,473 --> 00:11:47,063 language doesn't match up with the rest of their facial expressions, we will 208 00:11:47,063 --> 00:11:49,763 interpret that as there's a danger here. 209 00:11:50,373 --> 00:11:54,363 And people who grew up in a house where that danger, you 210 00:11:54,363 --> 00:11:55,773 know, was being played out a lot. 211 00:11:55,773 --> 00:12:00,423 Angry parents, very strict or controlling or critical parents, you know, might, 212 00:12:00,633 --> 00:12:06,183 might have used silence, for example, to be controlling, then we will have that 213 00:12:06,183 --> 00:12:07,718 dialed up sensitivity to all of that. 214 00:12:08,513 --> 00:12:12,863 So does that mean then that if someone silent with them or maybe 215 00:12:12,863 --> 00:12:15,683 doesn't hear them or something, they then interpret that as somebody's 216 00:12:15,713 --> 00:12:17,513 angry or cross or ignoring them? 217 00:12:17,513 --> 00:12:21,053 They'll, they'll read a lot more, reading lots into, it's essentially 218 00:12:21,053 --> 00:12:23,203 what we do over interpreting it? 219 00:12:23,298 --> 00:12:26,941 Exactly, because this meant this growing up, and so that's the 220 00:12:26,941 --> 00:12:28,691 meaning I now take into adulthood. 221 00:12:29,081 --> 00:12:32,741 And I've got all the strategies I need to cope based on that usually, 222 00:12:32,741 --> 00:12:35,921 you know, but it might not be the best strategies in adulthood. 223 00:12:35,951 --> 00:12:38,291 It might have been what kept you safe as a kid? 224 00:12:38,951 --> 00:12:40,241 You know, it might trigger shame. 225 00:12:40,421 --> 00:12:45,141 Shame is an emotion that makes us withdraw so we don't get further harm done to us. 226 00:12:45,771 --> 00:12:49,461 Um, whereas in adulthood, if someone's behaving badly towards 227 00:12:49,461 --> 00:12:54,081 us, ideally we would have a bit of annoyance, anger triggered, because 228 00:12:54,081 --> 00:12:57,231 if that's not okay, we need to then have the anger to tell us it's not 229 00:12:57,231 --> 00:12:58,971 okay so we can uphold the boundary. 230 00:12:59,331 --> 00:13:03,821 But that's another thing that goes a, a bit wonky, I find, is that people 231 00:13:03,821 --> 00:13:08,381 have downregulated anger for so long that they don't feel it in themselves. 232 00:13:08,381 --> 00:13:09,701 Instead, they feel this. 233 00:13:10,876 --> 00:13:13,426 Striving urges to make it better again. 234 00:13:13,786 --> 00:13:16,636 Um, and it's not the anger that's in the driving seat there, 235 00:13:16,636 --> 00:13:18,736 it's, it's fear and it's shame. 236 00:13:19,089 --> 00:13:19,929 That's very interesting. 237 00:13:19,929 --> 00:13:23,409 I've, I've, I've, uh, had a few interactions with a, a couple of 238 00:13:23,409 --> 00:13:28,359 narcissists, which I worked with over the last, um, few years. 239 00:13:28,359 --> 00:13:31,864 And, um, they said some quite outrageous things to me. 240 00:13:32,177 --> 00:13:35,237 And at the time I went into complete, oh gosh, I'm so bad. 241 00:13:35,237 --> 00:13:36,317 I'm so awful mode. 242 00:13:36,317 --> 00:13:40,914 And when I've got home and told my other half, he's been like, excuse me? 243 00:13:40,914 --> 00:13:42,474 What did, what did they say? 244 00:13:42,474 --> 00:13:46,314 But I think because I've had a DHD, I think I've been used to being 245 00:13:46,314 --> 00:13:49,607 a bit impulsive, often being the one in the wrong, a bit of sort 246 00:13:49,607 --> 00:13:51,707 of maybe rejection sensitivity. 247 00:13:51,881 --> 00:13:56,191 When I get some criticism, whether it's right or wrong, I immediately take it 248 00:13:56,191 --> 00:13:58,111 on, like properly take it on board. 249 00:13:58,111 --> 00:13:59,581 Oh my gosh, what have I done? 250 00:13:59,581 --> 00:14:00,451 Rather than have that. 251 00:14:01,096 --> 00:14:01,606 Righteous. 252 00:14:01,726 --> 00:14:05,326 Oh, hang on, hang on a sec. That protective anger. 253 00:14:05,331 --> 00:14:08,206 I, I do, I do go into that anger afterwards, but it's interesting what 254 00:14:08,206 --> 00:14:12,106 the, the, the first reaction is, and I guess vice versa, some, someone might 255 00:14:12,106 --> 00:14:17,656 have that defensive anger straight away to, to any criticism rather 256 00:14:17,656 --> 00:14:18,826 than they're taking it on board. 257 00:14:18,826 --> 00:14:21,835 I guess it's, it's two different extremes depending on how you've been 258 00:14:21,835 --> 00:14:23,575 brought up or what you've experienced? 259 00:14:23,878 --> 00:14:26,218 Yeah, and I definitely have had that sometimes in the therapy 260 00:14:26,218 --> 00:14:29,728 room where someone's felt a bit vulnerable, for example, or put 261 00:14:29,728 --> 00:14:31,738 upon, or just not expected something. 262 00:14:31,738 --> 00:14:33,778 These are, I guess, all the things you could get outside the therapy 263 00:14:33,778 --> 00:14:38,293 room too, and it's gone straight to anger, directed maybe towards me or 264 00:14:38,293 --> 00:14:41,803 to some, you know, you wanna place the anger somewhat somewhere, don't you? 265 00:14:42,073 --> 00:14:44,923 If you're the first person there to be on the receiving end, you might get it. 266 00:14:45,573 --> 00:14:48,723 And that's, yeah, that is really hard because when you're on the receiving 267 00:14:48,723 --> 00:14:51,957 end of that, it triggers your own threat response, and so you can get 268 00:14:51,957 --> 00:14:56,457 this COEs escalation happening, which is the opposite of co-regulation, where 269 00:14:56,487 --> 00:14:59,427 basically your nervous systems are kind of vibing off each other and both 270 00:14:59,847 --> 00:15:02,397 feeling like each other's dangerous. 271 00:15:02,577 --> 00:15:07,052 And so for me, if I'm on the receiving end of anger, I, you know, I get anxious, my 272 00:15:07,052 --> 00:15:11,805 heart starts going and I immediately want to appease, even if it's not my fault. 273 00:15:12,766 --> 00:15:15,443 So I have to make sure, not that I necessarily would get 274 00:15:15,443 --> 00:15:17,153 angry or do something unhelpful. 275 00:15:17,153 --> 00:15:20,123 I've obviously, as a therapist, I do have some strategies, but I would 276 00:15:20,123 --> 00:15:24,296 usually try and ground myself and notice that i'm, I'm really triggered. 277 00:15:24,316 --> 00:15:27,196 I'm finding it hard to think clearly and think of what I want to say. 278 00:15:27,616 --> 00:15:31,036 And so now if I'm in therapy, it's a bit easier maybe for me as a therapist. 279 00:15:31,036 --> 00:15:34,036 'cause I can say, oh, I'm noticing you're quite angry. 280 00:15:35,416 --> 00:15:38,896 I dunno how that would come across in a, in a setting, like in a medical 281 00:15:38,896 --> 00:15:39,886 setting, you can tell me maybe. 282 00:15:40,186 --> 00:15:43,456 Um, but I, I can't, I can't find my words right now because I'm on the 283 00:15:43,456 --> 00:15:44,776 receiving end of, of this anger. 284 00:15:44,776 --> 00:15:45,976 So I just need to take a moment. 285 00:15:45,976 --> 00:15:48,466 Could you just take a moment to, to try and manage your anger? 286 00:15:48,466 --> 00:15:50,326 I might say something like that, for example. 287 00:15:50,726 --> 00:15:53,246 I mean, goodness me, I, I lose count with the amount of times, 288 00:15:53,246 --> 00:15:55,616 yeah, that you are dealing, you are dealing with a patient who. 289 00:15:56,216 --> 00:15:58,496 Is really rude, really angry. 290 00:15:58,586 --> 00:16:02,516 And I think we've been taught that the professional thing to do is respond really 291 00:16:02,516 --> 00:16:04,406 well, respond, you know, calmly, whatever. 292 00:16:04,406 --> 00:16:08,816 But actually I think the professional thing to do is take that pause, 293 00:16:08,816 --> 00:16:12,236 like you've said, it's actually say, I just need a minute now. 294 00:16:12,241 --> 00:16:17,666 I remember I had a patient who, uh, it was when I was quite a young, young GP. 295 00:16:17,936 --> 00:16:19,526 She came and sat in front of me. 296 00:16:19,586 --> 00:16:20,636 I'd never seen her before. 297 00:16:20,636 --> 00:16:22,946 So, and she, in fact, she'd not been to the practice before. 298 00:16:23,246 --> 00:16:27,866 And she sat down and she said well, I just wanna start by saying every 299 00:16:27,866 --> 00:16:30,326 single doctor I've seen has been no effing use, and I think you are 300 00:16:30,326 --> 00:16:31,676 gonna be no effing use to me either. 301 00:16:32,096 --> 00:16:34,226 That was her opening gambit, right? 302 00:16:34,706 --> 00:16:38,066 And you can imagine what happened to my nervous system. 303 00:16:38,366 --> 00:16:41,366 It immediately went into, oh my gosh, I've got to please her. 304 00:16:41,366 --> 00:16:44,246 I've got to make sure that she, she isn't, you know, actually nowadays 305 00:16:44,246 --> 00:16:46,196 I'd be like, uh, right, hang on. 306 00:16:46,196 --> 00:16:46,946 Let's just take away. 307 00:16:46,946 --> 00:16:47,126 Yeah. 308 00:16:47,126 --> 00:16:48,506 Now I know myself a lot more. 309 00:16:48,506 --> 00:16:55,781 I'd be like, how can I possibly now have a neutral rational, uh, consultation with 310 00:16:55,781 --> 00:17:00,521 you where I actually do my best for you when, like you said, my nervous system 311 00:17:00,521 --> 00:17:02,888 is, which is wired for social safety. 312 00:17:02,888 --> 00:17:06,488 I think it's so helpful to think of it like that when my nervous system 313 00:17:06,488 --> 00:17:10,598 will be doing everything it can do to either appease you or to get or or to 314 00:17:10,598 --> 00:17:15,128 be safest, i'll probably end up over diagnosing, over investigating or saying 315 00:17:15,128 --> 00:17:19,328 something I regret or doing something because I'm not, I'm not thinking right. 316 00:17:19,328 --> 00:17:22,838 So it's hard enough for you as a therapist who knows what you're doing. 317 00:17:23,108 --> 00:17:26,911 The rest of us just trying to, like, manage these aggressive 318 00:17:27,031 --> 00:17:32,161 or rude people, um, with no tools in our toolbox to do that. 319 00:17:32,161 --> 00:17:35,071 You know, even knowing that it was okay to say, actually, I'm gonna 320 00:17:35,071 --> 00:17:38,881 pause this consultation and what should come for wasn't urgent. 321 00:17:38,911 --> 00:17:39,901 It really wasn't urgent. 322 00:17:39,901 --> 00:17:41,371 It was some minor investigations. 323 00:17:41,581 --> 00:17:44,311 Actually, I should have said, sorry, I'm not, I can't carry on with this 324 00:17:44,311 --> 00:17:47,671 consultation now because I, I don't think I can think straight having, you've just 325 00:17:47,671 --> 00:17:50,371 said that to me, which is quite triggering for me and I'm really worried now. 326 00:17:50,896 --> 00:17:51,646 Can you rebook? 327 00:17:52,636 --> 00:17:57,436 And that would've also been a very good boundary to say, I am not 328 00:17:57,436 --> 00:18:00,196 prepared to be spoken to that way. 329 00:18:00,196 --> 00:18:01,366 She was incredibly aggressive. 330 00:18:01,606 --> 00:18:02,986 It wasn't just my interpretation. 331 00:18:02,986 --> 00:18:07,126 If someone down and tell you no effing use before they even know you, that 332 00:18:07,126 --> 00:18:10,186 was definitely a her problem, not a me problem, but we're just sort of wide to 333 00:18:10,186 --> 00:18:11,566 go, no, no, you've got to deal with it. 334 00:18:11,566 --> 00:18:12,676 That's part being professional. 335 00:18:12,676 --> 00:18:15,496 But I think a lot of the time we deal with stuff and we shouldn't 336 00:18:15,496 --> 00:18:18,436 be dealing with it, and we get ourselves into trouble because we are. 337 00:18:18,860 --> 00:18:19,640 So mentioned there. 338 00:18:19,640 --> 00:18:21,770 I dunno where to start, but yeah, there was a natural, if there was a 339 00:18:21,770 --> 00:18:23,480 natural consequence, that's helpful. 340 00:18:23,600 --> 00:18:26,150 You know that the, the appointment's been closed down. 341 00:18:26,180 --> 00:18:29,210 I mean, I dunno how reflective somebody would be in that space, but 342 00:18:29,210 --> 00:18:32,600 if there are natural consequences to behaving inappropriately, hopefully 343 00:18:32,600 --> 00:18:36,410 eventually somebody would start to manage their behaviors a little bit. 344 00:18:36,680 --> 00:18:41,330 Um, but I think also, I dunno, I, I, I'm, I've been practicing in mental 345 00:18:41,330 --> 00:18:45,770 health for 20 years now, and I know you've probably been similar time-wise. 346 00:18:46,340 --> 00:18:50,315 I think that does help a little bit because you can kind of, over 347 00:18:50,315 --> 00:18:53,705 time, you've got the experiences of different interactions to hold 348 00:18:53,705 --> 00:18:57,695 in mind, like, I know I'm not a bad therapist, I know this isn't my fault. 349 00:18:57,905 --> 00:19:01,895 So I suppose just leaning on those, remembering this is, this is about this 350 00:19:01,985 --> 00:19:05,795 moment, they, there's something going on for this person I don't know about. 351 00:19:06,035 --> 00:19:09,965 Doesn't mean you need to excuse this behavior, but I can just focus on 352 00:19:09,965 --> 00:19:15,737 regulating myself before I make the first, next step for this interaction. 353 00:19:16,127 --> 00:19:19,307 And it, I think probably everyone listening to this conversation. 354 00:19:19,787 --> 00:19:23,987 Can bring to mind or might already be there with moments where they've 355 00:19:23,987 --> 00:19:28,277 had that torrent of anger at them because that's what, um, memories are 356 00:19:28,277 --> 00:19:29,717 like when we're talking about anger. 357 00:19:29,717 --> 00:19:33,287 Usually angry memories are retriggered, um, because the 358 00:19:33,287 --> 00:19:35,237 nervous system is trying to look after you and trying to go on yeah. 359 00:19:35,237 --> 00:19:37,277 And remember that time you don't want that to happen again. 360 00:19:37,457 --> 00:19:41,237 So I've got an incident incident in my head where someone had a pop at me because 361 00:19:41,237 --> 00:19:45,486 I'd asked if, um, if a trainee could sit in with the appointment and she just. 362 00:19:45,676 --> 00:19:48,916 It was all, and you know, it's quite normal, isn't it, for our profession 363 00:19:48,916 --> 00:19:53,206 to have to have that, but she obviously felt that that was, um, not appropriate. 364 00:19:53,476 --> 00:19:55,456 But the way she handled it was really difficult. 365 00:19:55,456 --> 00:20:00,980 And, uh, this was about 16 years ago, 15 years ago, and I, and I didn't know 366 00:20:00,980 --> 00:20:02,750 how to handle it was my first occasion. 367 00:20:02,750 --> 00:20:06,050 So, you know, just this could be an invitation to think about those times. 368 00:20:06,050 --> 00:20:07,190 Like how could you have done that differently? 369 00:20:07,190 --> 00:20:09,020 Because we take learnings from that, can't we? 370 00:20:09,427 --> 00:20:13,177 At the time, thinking back to it, I think I was in the mindset 371 00:20:13,177 --> 00:20:16,957 that it would've been weak to not carry on with the consultation. 372 00:20:16,957 --> 00:20:20,197 It would've been unprofessional not to carry on with the consultation. 373 00:20:20,827 --> 00:20:24,637 Um, and that was, I would've been open up to complaints, to criticism. 374 00:20:24,637 --> 00:20:26,407 It would've been the wrong thing to do. 375 00:20:27,127 --> 00:20:31,912 Looking back on it, I think it would've been actually the professional thing 376 00:20:31,912 --> 00:20:37,012 to do, to say the reason is not because I'm pissed off, not because 377 00:20:37,072 --> 00:20:38,452 I shouldn't be treated like that. 378 00:20:38,452 --> 00:20:39,502 That's not the reason. 379 00:20:39,502 --> 00:20:44,482 It's because my emotional system, my nervous system, is now dysregulated 380 00:20:44,872 --> 00:20:49,432 and I can't actually make the best decisions for you as a patient 381 00:20:49,432 --> 00:20:50,872 because that has just happened. 382 00:20:51,382 --> 00:20:54,052 And I think if, if we start to understand that that's the 383 00:20:54,052 --> 00:20:55,522 reason, that's the reason why. 384 00:20:56,517 --> 00:21:01,124 I can't have a conversation, you know, maybe if someone's just criticized 385 00:21:01,124 --> 00:21:05,744 me very heavily, I probably can't then have a conversation about 386 00:21:05,744 --> 00:21:06,854 how I can change or whatever. 387 00:21:06,854 --> 00:21:09,104 I probably need to go away, think about it, and, and regulate, and 388 00:21:09,104 --> 00:21:10,544 then I can come back and have it. 389 00:21:11,204 --> 00:21:15,434 So it's the, it's the understanding that it's about the dysregulation and what 390 00:21:15,434 --> 00:21:19,784 that does to our brains, not the fact that we're being rude or weak or unprofessional 391 00:21:20,574 --> 00:21:25,464 that will give us that permission to take that pause and and rearrange stuff. 392 00:21:25,464 --> 00:21:28,374 I think of so many situations that would've been so much better if I'd 393 00:21:28,374 --> 00:21:33,714 have just said, actually, I can't deal with this now because my, owning it. 394 00:21:33,714 --> 00:21:36,894 How, what phrase could you use to own that dysregulation of 395 00:21:36,894 --> 00:21:37,944 your emotional nervous system? 396 00:21:37,944 --> 00:21:40,794 Claire, what would you tell your clients to say? 397 00:21:40,794 --> 00:21:42,834 I mean, that phrase that you used. 398 00:21:42,986 --> 00:21:46,196 I think, I mean, I've, I've definitely had a few sessions where people have come 399 00:21:46,196 --> 00:21:48,726 in angry, , and it's been directed at me. 400 00:21:48,726 --> 00:21:52,842 I think the way I phrased it is something like, well, I can see you're really 401 00:21:52,842 --> 00:21:57,312 angry and this is coming at me, and this has triggered my threat response. 402 00:21:57,372 --> 00:22:00,342 So I'm finding it really hard to think clearly right now. 403 00:22:00,702 --> 00:22:04,382 And I have on one occasion ended a session early because I, I 404 00:22:04,382 --> 00:22:06,332 couldn't think what I could do. 405 00:22:06,332 --> 00:22:09,662 So I had to say, I, I don't know how to proceed with this appointment 406 00:22:09,662 --> 00:22:13,422 because I can't think now, so we are gonna have to rebuke. 407 00:22:13,552 --> 00:22:14,422 I like that. 408 00:22:14,422 --> 00:22:18,712 I like saying this, what's just happened, this behavior, this thing has triggered 409 00:22:18,712 --> 00:22:22,477 my threat response because what you're saying, and we talk a lot in our training 410 00:22:22,477 --> 00:22:26,947 about going over the net, which is this concept that if I say to you, Claire, 411 00:22:26,947 --> 00:22:30,907 you've undermined me, you've been really rude, well, that's over the net because 412 00:22:31,067 --> 00:22:34,457 I may have received it as rude, but I dunno that that's what you intended. 413 00:22:34,687 --> 00:22:37,867 Actually, what might have happened was that you told me I was effing useless. 414 00:22:37,897 --> 00:22:41,315 Now that that's the baby you can observe or, but you might have, You 415 00:22:41,315 --> 00:22:44,465 might have said something in a, in a loud voice, and I've interpreted 416 00:22:44,465 --> 00:22:45,605 it as, you are angry with me. 417 00:22:45,605 --> 00:22:48,095 Maybe you're just like excited or something. 418 00:22:48,095 --> 00:22:49,175 So I'm over the net. 419 00:22:49,175 --> 00:22:54,905 If I assume that you were intending harm to, uh, to be difficult, that you 420 00:22:54,905 --> 00:22:57,335 are being really angry or whatever. 421 00:22:57,335 --> 00:22:58,235 So saying like. 422 00:22:58,608 --> 00:23:03,238 I feel threatened here because what you've just said to me, or the way 423 00:23:03,238 --> 00:23:05,788 that you've just said it has triggered my threat response, whether you 424 00:23:05,788 --> 00:23:08,428 meant to or not, like I don't know that, but I'm feeling threatened. 425 00:23:08,428 --> 00:23:11,248 I'm feeling because I'm feeling threatened now. 426 00:23:11,578 --> 00:23:15,868 And it could be to do with all my, my previous shit that's gone on, you know. 427 00:23:16,131 --> 00:23:21,651 In, in A&E you know, if, if somebody is really drunk or whatever, um, and 428 00:23:21,651 --> 00:23:25,266 a nurse is thinking actually, i'm feeling threatened because the last 429 00:23:25,266 --> 00:23:29,033 patient that was in here in your state thumped one of my colleagues. 430 00:23:29,033 --> 00:23:30,623 You know, you're owning it. 431 00:23:30,623 --> 00:23:34,973 You're saying this is why I'm feeling threatened and now I can't think straight. 432 00:23:35,181 --> 00:23:36,561 So you're not saying you've done anything wrong. 433 00:23:36,561 --> 00:23:40,161 'cause the minute I think, the minute you start to imply that someone else has 434 00:23:40,161 --> 00:23:44,091 done something wrong, then that's where you get that COEs escalation, isn't it? 435 00:23:44,541 --> 00:23:47,131 Um, I mean, they might be annoyed anyway with you saying that. 436 00:23:47,131 --> 00:23:50,341 but at least you've tried to, not to trigger them too much. 437 00:23:50,447 --> 00:23:51,287 Yeah, it's really hard. 438 00:23:51,287 --> 00:23:54,887 I think acknowledging someone's anger and emotion is really important. 439 00:23:54,887 --> 00:23:58,667 It, I mean, it is the key part of any emotion regulation work 440 00:23:58,667 --> 00:24:02,537 in therapy, helping someone name it so you can name it for them. 441 00:24:02,597 --> 00:24:04,007 You know, it looks like you're really angry. 442 00:24:04,097 --> 00:24:07,217 I mean, it might be really obvious, but that's an intervention. 443 00:24:07,451 --> 00:24:10,181 And you could, you know, it might be coming from somewhere else, but I'm 444 00:24:10,181 --> 00:24:12,161 experiencing it that as threatening. 445 00:24:12,511 --> 00:24:16,141 And so either I need to take a moment and come back and then please don't 446 00:24:16,261 --> 00:24:19,711 talk, continue talking to me like that if you'd like me to carry on doing my job, 447 00:24:20,211 --> 00:24:24,231 but I can't carry on right now without a moment to manage myself, regulate 448 00:24:24,231 --> 00:24:26,201 myself back into feeling okay again. 449 00:24:26,660 --> 00:24:32,120 So I think recognizing that using tools like slower, regular breathing, for 450 00:24:32,120 --> 00:24:39,045 example, and with my clients I make little, um, soothing kind of packs. 451 00:24:39,045 --> 00:24:43,528 so, or kits maybe in a little spectacle case or a pencil case, like 452 00:24:43,528 --> 00:24:45,298 a little travel one, just a few bits. 453 00:24:45,298 --> 00:24:49,468 So if you know you get triggered a lot, you can take out a certain smell or a 454 00:24:49,468 --> 00:24:54,038 little thing to kind of squeeze or, just something that's grounding, you can come 455 00:24:54,038 --> 00:24:56,798 back to and feel a sense of safety in. 456 00:24:57,438 --> 00:25:00,168 I guess there's a, there's a different level, isn't it? 457 00:25:00,168 --> 00:25:03,258 There's that time where, you know, the patient's so angry with you 458 00:25:03,258 --> 00:25:05,838 that you, you just can't think straight that, that patient being 459 00:25:05,838 --> 00:25:07,098 really, you know, rude to me. 460 00:25:07,098 --> 00:25:10,638 I can't think straight, but there are just the, the subtle little things where 461 00:25:10,938 --> 00:25:14,358 it would be escalating it a lot to say, right, that's it, i've been triggered. 462 00:25:14,358 --> 00:25:15,558 I can't, I can't do anything. 463 00:25:15,558 --> 00:25:19,338 And that, that's the nuance stuff that is really difficult to deal with. 464 00:25:19,338 --> 00:25:22,818 And I love that thought of getting a nice thing outta your pencil case, 465 00:25:22,818 --> 00:25:26,586 but, but you can't, you can't do that say in the middle of a meeting or, you 466 00:25:26,586 --> 00:25:28,716 know, in a professional consultation. 467 00:25:28,716 --> 00:25:30,886 So what else can you do? 468 00:25:31,115 --> 00:25:34,505 I mean, I, I, I like the idea of having affirmations or, 469 00:25:34,565 --> 00:25:35,855 and embodied affirmations. 470 00:25:35,855 --> 00:25:37,865 I know I've spoken to you about them before, but some, some 471 00:25:37,865 --> 00:25:40,055 wording that, you know, you need to hear in a moment like that. 472 00:25:40,415 --> 00:25:44,386 Like I've got two or three phrases that I know I've got my sleeve. 473 00:25:44,866 --> 00:25:47,266 One is, for example, I'm doing my best. 474 00:25:47,651 --> 00:25:50,141 And, you know, if you aren't right in front of someone, I might 475 00:25:50,201 --> 00:25:53,231 put my hands on my heart just to kind of reinforce that message. 476 00:25:53,738 --> 00:25:58,298 This job is really hard, like it's just little reminders or I've got 477 00:25:58,298 --> 00:26:02,266 this, I I don't need to prove myself to anyone, i've already got this. 478 00:26:02,626 --> 00:26:04,216 Um, I deserve to be here. 479 00:26:04,276 --> 00:26:06,637 You know, some of those things I might say to myself. 480 00:26:07,124 --> 00:26:07,514 I like that. 481 00:26:07,514 --> 00:26:10,544 I, well, I'm, I'm thinking of some mantras that various different people 482 00:26:10,544 --> 00:26:12,284 on the podcast have, have talked about. 483 00:26:12,284 --> 00:26:16,544 Annaline Weston, who's their dental legal advisor dentist in Australia, she's got 484 00:26:16,544 --> 00:26:20,684 this mantra that she makes all her dental students say, and that is, I'm gonna make 485 00:26:20,684 --> 00:26:22,244 mistakes and some of them will be serious. 486 00:26:22,424 --> 00:26:25,904 She makes them like their first day of, their first year of their dental training. 487 00:26:25,904 --> 00:26:27,914 She sits with lecture this and makes them say that. 488 00:26:27,914 --> 00:26:29,958 But, you know, saying, I'm gonna make mistakes. 489 00:26:29,958 --> 00:26:30,768 Some of them will be serious. 490 00:26:30,768 --> 00:26:33,282 Like she know, okay, you've just told me I've made a mistake. 491 00:26:33,419 --> 00:26:34,769 I'm gonna make mistakes. 492 00:26:34,769 --> 00:26:36,989 It's just like normalizing some of that. 493 00:26:37,519 --> 00:26:41,981 Some other stuff I guess I found useful was, I try and do this 494 00:26:41,981 --> 00:26:45,161 sometimes, like, this does sound like a you problem, not a me problem. 495 00:26:45,161 --> 00:26:49,041 Like, but I wouldn't actually say, wouldn't say that, but you know, in 496 00:26:49,041 --> 00:26:52,251 your head thinking, oh, this is a, this is really a you problem not, not 497 00:26:52,251 --> 00:26:57,621 a me problem, which again, I think a lot of doctors do, and I'm sure 498 00:26:57,651 --> 00:27:01,851 psychotherapists as well, you know, take on their, their clients' problems, 499 00:27:01,881 --> 00:27:05,751 like they've got to solve them, that they, and often I think we can be 500 00:27:05,751 --> 00:27:10,926 triggered by the fact that someone dumping a. Unsolvable problem on you. 501 00:27:10,926 --> 00:27:15,216 And even if the patient hasn't said, you've gotta sort this, you know, we 502 00:27:15,216 --> 00:27:16,866 think to ourselves, oh, I've gotta sort this, what we're gonna do. 503 00:27:16,866 --> 00:27:19,236 And if I don't do that, then they're gonna be rude and I know 504 00:27:19,236 --> 00:27:20,136 what they were like last time. 505 00:27:20,136 --> 00:27:21,726 So we sort of trigger ourselves. 506 00:27:21,726 --> 00:27:23,436 So this whole, well, that's a you problem. 507 00:27:23,436 --> 00:27:24,666 I can't do anything about that. 508 00:27:24,666 --> 00:27:30,066 And I think one of the things I like to say to myself, although I often on 509 00:27:30,066 --> 00:27:34,686 my own, is, you know, again, hand on heart, of course you reacted like that. 510 00:27:34,974 --> 00:27:36,414 Look at what you're coping with. 511 00:27:36,798 --> 00:27:40,518 Because one of the things I've learned recently that has really helped me is 512 00:27:40,518 --> 00:27:45,558 the fact that every behavior makes sense to the person that's behaving like that. 513 00:27:46,338 --> 00:27:51,648 So if that person is like outside waving a, I don't know, sword around 514 00:27:51,648 --> 00:27:53,418 that, that makes sense to them. 515 00:27:53,418 --> 00:27:55,668 Whatever's going on in their head, they're not just doing it, there's 516 00:27:55,668 --> 00:27:58,368 something that's triggered that, that's a bit of an extreme example. 517 00:27:58,368 --> 00:28:00,528 But if someone, yeah. 518 00:28:00,528 --> 00:28:04,985 Is being really rude in a meeting, that behavior's making sense to them. 519 00:28:04,985 --> 00:28:06,995 It's not making sense to anybody else. 520 00:28:07,231 --> 00:28:10,531 But what is it in their past that means that they think that is an 521 00:28:10,531 --> 00:28:12,691 okay way to put they being modeled. 522 00:28:13,111 --> 00:28:15,421 What are they scared about? 523 00:28:15,451 --> 00:28:19,171 Like what, what that, that sort of thing about their really 524 00:28:19,171 --> 00:28:20,461 wide sensing social threat. 525 00:28:20,491 --> 00:28:25,261 Are they feeling really insecure that they just have to dominate everybody? 526 00:28:25,261 --> 00:28:28,454 I mean, it's fricking annoying, but I think it's starting to 527 00:28:28,454 --> 00:28:29,474 have a little bit of compassion. 528 00:28:30,329 --> 00:28:31,884 To the other person, yeah. 529 00:28:32,283 --> 00:28:35,703 I mean, it's not fun to be in that place and that the, what you are getting at 530 00:28:35,703 --> 00:28:39,993 sounds to me like the essence of trauma informed care, where instead of asking 531 00:28:39,998 --> 00:28:41,193 like, well, what's wrong with you? 532 00:28:41,193 --> 00:28:42,903 You're asking, well, what's gone on for you? 533 00:28:42,963 --> 00:28:45,963 What's happened to you in the past that you are in this 534 00:28:45,963 --> 00:28:47,973 space, behaving in this way? 535 00:28:48,339 --> 00:28:52,089 And you know, often when I'm in therapy and I'm hearing people's 536 00:28:52,089 --> 00:28:56,806 experiences in health settings, You know, the, the system is so squeezed 537 00:28:57,196 --> 00:29:01,606 and busy that the ability to be trauma-informed is really compromised. 538 00:29:01,996 --> 00:29:04,426 But they are things like showing that you're listening. 539 00:29:04,426 --> 00:29:09,376 It's like you said earlier, slowing questions down and, and allowing a bit 540 00:29:09,376 --> 00:29:11,026 more pause, which I know is really hard. 541 00:29:11,026 --> 00:29:13,276 But some of that might be within someone's control. 542 00:29:13,696 --> 00:29:19,036 Um, if you are slowing the pace down, that slows them down and it buys you a bit 543 00:29:19,036 --> 00:29:21,286 of time if you feel a bit dysregulated. 544 00:29:21,706 --> 00:29:28,396 If you kind of thinking about just that as an action, it communicates, I'm listening, 545 00:29:28,396 --> 00:29:32,116 but it also communicates, and we can take this a bit more slowly, and I think 546 00:29:32,116 --> 00:29:36,106 that can be really valuable for someone who's stressed or upset or nervous. 547 00:29:36,736 --> 00:29:38,896 'Cause often that's, that's gonna be underneath, isn't it? 548 00:29:39,076 --> 00:29:39,346 This. 549 00:29:39,991 --> 00:29:44,761 This anger or frustration that's coming at you, um, feeling of not being in control. 550 00:29:45,181 --> 00:29:48,661 Um, this, this has moved into mostly focusing on anger, isn't it? 551 00:29:48,811 --> 00:29:50,046 I dunno if that was your intention. 552 00:29:50,706 --> 00:29:54,906 Well, I think anger, interestingly, and I heard this, tell me if I'm right. 553 00:29:54,996 --> 00:29:58,457 I've been told that anger is a secondary emotion, that there's 554 00:29:58,457 --> 00:29:59,777 always something underneath anger. 555 00:29:59,777 --> 00:30:05,387 So there might be fear which comes out as anger or there's distress or sadness 556 00:30:05,387 --> 00:30:10,277 or, and often stuff come out, comes out as anger and, and I suffer with this 557 00:30:10,277 --> 00:30:15,118 affliction that when I'm really scared about something, there's a sort of 558 00:30:15,118 --> 00:30:18,568 bearing my soul here, there's a famous incident in our family and the, the family 559 00:30:18,568 --> 00:30:22,828 of our best mates where we went for a lovely pub walk lunch when the kids were 560 00:30:22,828 --> 00:30:28,648 quite little, and my daughter cycled home with the, the son they were about. 561 00:30:28,978 --> 00:30:30,718 Seven, six or seven. 562 00:30:32,038 --> 00:30:34,888 The son thought he knew the way home and we were going across 563 00:30:34,888 --> 00:30:36,118 the meadows and stuff like that. 564 00:30:36,118 --> 00:30:39,988 And so we lost these two kids on a bike and some quite, you know, 565 00:30:40,288 --> 00:30:43,048 difficult roads for about half an hour. 566 00:30:43,498 --> 00:30:45,993 And they had just cycled to the local Sainsburys and would 567 00:30:45,993 --> 00:30:47,223 sort of sat waiting for them. 568 00:30:47,223 --> 00:30:51,653 And when we found them, my best friend was like, oh, darlings, you're here. 569 00:30:51,653 --> 00:30:51,983 Whatever. 570 00:30:52,103 --> 00:30:53,663 I just let rip. 571 00:30:53,723 --> 00:30:56,543 I was like, I cannot believe you did that. 572 00:30:56,543 --> 00:31:00,743 I yelled at my daughter and, and this other little boy, it sort 573 00:31:00,743 --> 00:31:03,263 of gone down in history as Mum yelled at someone else's kid. 574 00:31:03,263 --> 00:31:06,923 I was so scared and worried about it. 575 00:31:06,923 --> 00:31:09,113 It came out as absolute rage. 576 00:31:10,433 --> 00:31:13,043 And often I think when we are scared, it comes out as anger. 577 00:31:13,553 --> 00:31:15,473 Sometimes when we're upset it comes out as anger. 578 00:31:15,473 --> 00:31:18,833 When we're worried, frustrated, often it, it, it, for some 579 00:31:18,833 --> 00:31:20,333 of us it comes out as anger. 580 00:31:20,333 --> 00:31:22,548 I dunno if you've experienced that with clients. 581 00:31:23,089 --> 00:31:24,319 Yeah, yeah, definitely. 582 00:31:24,319 --> 00:31:26,839 I would say that that can be the case. 583 00:31:27,256 --> 00:31:31,906 Uh, I mean, I've not heard it phrased as it's only a secondary emotion. 584 00:31:31,906 --> 00:31:34,816 I feel like it can be a primary emotion too, if, if a boundary's 585 00:31:34,816 --> 00:31:38,776 been crossed and there's justified anger because that's not okay. 586 00:31:39,196 --> 00:31:43,456 Um, but I think helping people identify what's happened there can be helpful. 587 00:31:43,606 --> 00:31:46,276 And I do think, like you say, it can be a secondary emotion. 588 00:31:46,396 --> 00:31:47,566 And then of course you get. 589 00:31:47,686 --> 00:31:51,616 Another layer of that, which is then shame for feeling younger and for 590 00:31:51,616 --> 00:31:56,146 reacting and, and then there's that whole weight and burden of those emotions. 591 00:31:56,636 --> 00:32:00,754 So therapy, a lot of therapy is spent talking about are poor 592 00:32:00,754 --> 00:32:02,794 down regulating these emotions. 593 00:32:03,158 --> 00:32:07,326 It's actually harder to upregulate anger, believe it or not, than it is to 594 00:32:07,356 --> 00:32:11,526 downregulate if someone has never been able to be connected with anger, to get 595 00:32:11,526 --> 00:32:16,116 'em to start feeling anger, um, in an appropriate way is actually really hard. 596 00:32:16,209 --> 00:32:17,769 What are they feeling instead then 597 00:32:17,769 --> 00:32:21,609 Um, shame or it's directed inwards so it's not directed outwards 598 00:32:21,609 --> 00:32:23,379 to where it should be directed. 599 00:32:23,559 --> 00:32:25,209 Um, so hatred, self hatred. 600 00:32:25,284 --> 00:32:26,180 And that's hard, isn't it? 601 00:32:26,180 --> 00:32:29,773 Because with, we are told, I think in our society that showing anger is, 602 00:32:29,803 --> 00:32:31,633 is really bad and is really wrong. 603 00:32:31,963 --> 00:32:34,903 Actually, sometimes it's the healthiest thing to do and particularly if someone 604 00:32:35,293 --> 00:32:39,673 is being tricky and overstepping up, and actually I think a correct response with 605 00:32:39,673 --> 00:32:44,590 that patient that I talked about earlier should have been a bit of controlled anger 606 00:32:44,740 --> 00:32:46,090 rather than, oh gosh, I'm such a bad doc. 607 00:32:46,180 --> 00:32:48,250 Actually that is not okay. 608 00:32:48,491 --> 00:32:50,981 I don't feel, I now feel threatened and unsafe, and I'm feeling 609 00:32:50,981 --> 00:32:52,241 quite angry that you said that. 610 00:32:52,421 --> 00:32:56,411 You know, I think that would've been much healthier reaction than, oh gosh, 611 00:32:56,411 --> 00:33:00,146 I've got to make you, better and make you love me, and all that, all that sort 612 00:33:00,146 --> 00:33:03,176 of weird stuff that went on in instead. 613 00:33:03,476 --> 00:33:04,936 And, and I think it's difficult for women. 614 00:33:04,936 --> 00:33:08,296 Women aren't allowed to show anger as much as men perhaps. 615 00:33:08,577 --> 00:33:13,962 And so at work, if a woman is, if there's a tricky dynamic with people, if a 616 00:33:13,962 --> 00:33:18,282 woman shows that they are angry because that boundary's being crossed and that 617 00:33:18,282 --> 00:33:21,402 person has been tricky and they've done something rude, then it immediately 618 00:33:21,402 --> 00:33:23,352 becomes the woman's fault for reacting. 619 00:33:23,547 --> 00:33:26,577 Whereas I think men probably get away with a little bit 620 00:33:26,577 --> 00:33:28,227 more, hang on, that's not okay. 621 00:33:28,767 --> 00:33:32,467 And they can say, and it doesn't get taken as this, this dreadful, toxic anger. 622 00:33:32,487 --> 00:33:34,107 Now that's just my thoughts. 623 00:33:34,107 --> 00:33:35,367 I could be totally wrong. 624 00:33:35,427 --> 00:33:36,860 I don't know what your experience are. 625 00:33:36,953 --> 00:33:40,073 when I looked at this, um, for another podcast actually about the different 626 00:33:40,073 --> 00:33:43,406 stress response to men and women, women are more like to show their 627 00:33:43,406 --> 00:33:47,951 anger in a passive aggressive way where they gossip after the event, rather 628 00:33:47,951 --> 00:33:49,841 than setting or saying it upfront. 629 00:33:50,171 --> 00:33:55,541 And in, and they're also more likely to go to the kind of appeasement, fawning 630 00:33:55,541 --> 00:34:00,101 kind of behavior because in terms of, you know, our ancestors being kind of 631 00:34:00,297 --> 00:34:03,567 the ones in charge of the young we, that would've been a better survival 632 00:34:03,567 --> 00:34:08,567 strategy to kind of appease the kind of the threat so that, 'cause you can't 633 00:34:08,567 --> 00:34:10,277 run with all your young, very fast. 634 00:34:10,444 --> 00:34:12,309 And actually, yeah, that's exactly what women do. 635 00:34:12,309 --> 00:34:14,889 They, they don't say anything, then they go and bitch about it afterwards. 636 00:34:14,889 --> 00:34:16,779 And not, not all the time, but you know. 637 00:34:17,316 --> 00:34:19,566 I always think it is healthier to say something at the time, 638 00:34:19,566 --> 00:34:23,496 but it's this co-escalation and co-regulation that's the key, isn't it? 639 00:34:24,453 --> 00:34:26,313 What else can you do to co-regulate? 640 00:34:26,313 --> 00:34:29,613 So you can, you've already talked about slowing the pace of your speaking. 641 00:34:29,913 --> 00:34:33,792 You know, you're talking slowly, you are maybe showing some em empathy. 642 00:34:34,067 --> 00:34:34,364 Yeah. 643 00:34:34,364 --> 00:34:36,944 I, I mean, I, I try and soften my facial expression. 644 00:34:36,944 --> 00:34:41,340 I think about, you know, lots of, kind of gentle language without being 645 00:34:41,340 --> 00:34:45,480 patronizing, using eye statements like, oh, I noticed this and I need this. 646 00:34:45,480 --> 00:34:49,339 And, um, you know, just, uh, this is a pain in the neck, this form, isn't it? 647 00:34:49,339 --> 00:34:52,729 But, um, this is something we have to just try and at least do the basics of. 648 00:34:52,729 --> 00:34:56,839 Like, I dunno, I just use phraseology like that, that kind of tries to come alongside 649 00:34:56,839 --> 00:35:02,329 someone without patronizing, without, you know, making the situation worse. 650 00:35:02,624 --> 00:35:05,564 Is there any ever place for saying to somebody, actually, I think 651 00:35:05,624 --> 00:35:09,204 you need to take a break and step out and, you know, take a quilt. 652 00:35:09,264 --> 00:35:10,554 It it, the problem, this is really annoying. 653 00:35:10,554 --> 00:35:13,599 Someone telling you to take a chill pill, it's bad. 654 00:35:13,704 --> 00:35:16,284 It's as bad as someone telling you you're really angry when you're not. 655 00:35:16,314 --> 00:35:19,284 Then sometimes you take a chill pill when you're, when you're quite chill. 656 00:35:19,284 --> 00:35:21,294 Just, that really annoys me. 657 00:35:21,294 --> 00:35:25,546 But what can we do about these, these tricky people because okay, we, we've 658 00:35:25,546 --> 00:35:29,039 looked at people, you know, we've looked at our own response and what is triggered 659 00:35:29,039 --> 00:35:30,659 in us, and maybe stuff from the past. 660 00:35:30,659 --> 00:35:34,709 But if, if someone genuinely is difficult, everyone knows they're difficult, 661 00:35:34,889 --> 00:35:36,569 they're stressing everybody out. 662 00:35:37,329 --> 00:35:40,599 You kind of want to know your team is there for you, but not in a ver 663 00:35:40,629 --> 00:35:44,829 like a visual we are now gowning up on this person kind of way. 664 00:35:44,829 --> 00:35:45,579 Do you know what I mean? 665 00:35:45,579 --> 00:35:50,349 I think there's a bit of a subtle, kind of like a kind of little, I dunno ha like 666 00:35:50,409 --> 00:35:53,319 at home for example, if my husband's a bit annoyed, I might just put a hand on my his 667 00:35:53,319 --> 00:35:54,939 shoulder and just go so I'm there for him. 668 00:35:54,939 --> 00:35:59,089 It's like something like that being a team format that doesn't then involve 669 00:35:59,089 --> 00:36:03,769 other people coming in to kind of rescue you or like get involved, 'cause I 670 00:36:03,769 --> 00:36:06,019 think that can escalate it all as well. 671 00:36:06,529 --> 00:36:09,349 And I'm, I mean, this is a really boring response. 672 00:36:09,349 --> 00:36:12,229 I feel like I'm in a job interview now, but what, what policies, 673 00:36:12,319 --> 00:36:13,819 what do the policies say as well? 674 00:36:13,849 --> 00:36:18,169 Because I think it is helpful just to be aware of that, like, as well, just to 675 00:36:18,169 --> 00:36:23,959 have a sense of what, um, your managers might be think, uh, like aligned with. 676 00:36:24,359 --> 00:36:26,338 But I think it's gonna be uncomfortable. 677 00:36:26,338 --> 00:36:29,818 Expect it to be uncomfortable, and expect that sometimes when you are dealing with 678 00:36:29,818 --> 00:36:34,948 human distress, this is gonna be the result in a system that's chronically 679 00:36:34,948 --> 00:36:39,248 underfunded and um, stressed, and there's gonna be knee-jerk reactions 680 00:36:39,248 --> 00:36:42,308 that have happened somewhere in the system that may be, has been unhelpful. 681 00:36:42,674 --> 00:36:48,039 People's history of helping professions isn't always sunny and delightful. 682 00:36:48,249 --> 00:36:52,629 So the reaction to you might be colored by previous experience 683 00:36:52,629 --> 00:36:53,889 of helping professions. 684 00:36:53,919 --> 00:36:57,927 Um, actually that's something else I always, um, find out about in therapy 685 00:36:57,927 --> 00:37:01,917 with people, you know, tell me about what has happened in other scenarios 686 00:37:01,917 --> 00:37:05,097 where you've been in a therapy setting or with other doctors and, you know, 687 00:37:05,667 --> 00:37:10,337 helping professions, because that does often give some seeds of idea, like 688 00:37:10,367 --> 00:37:12,977 obviously you weren't listened to, so I wonder how that's gonna make you 689 00:37:12,977 --> 00:37:14,747 feel about how I might listen to you. 690 00:37:15,273 --> 00:37:17,823 I mean as a therapist, Claire, you did mention to me earlier that you've 691 00:37:17,823 --> 00:37:22,713 got a an EMDR type template that you use sometimes, which is quite helpful. 692 00:37:22,932 --> 00:37:25,212 This particularly works well if you know you're going into something that's 693 00:37:25,212 --> 00:37:28,302 gonna be tricky and you kind of have a rough idea of what that might look like. 694 00:37:28,614 --> 00:37:32,514 But you know, if you are in scenarios a lot, say that the A&E example, I 695 00:37:32,514 --> 00:37:35,774 imagine people do get a lot of, stuff thrown at them that's quite intense 696 00:37:35,774 --> 00:37:40,896 that tends to be quite similar, to just to run through in your mind's eye 697 00:37:41,196 --> 00:37:44,526 how you could handle it, maybe using some of the things we've talked about 698 00:37:44,526 --> 00:37:47,256 here, and just say that to yourself. 699 00:37:47,286 --> 00:37:48,696 I can cope with this, I can handle it. 700 00:37:48,696 --> 00:37:50,106 And picture yourself handling it. 701 00:37:50,376 --> 00:37:53,166 You know, it might be something like, I'm gonna just take a moment, or I'm 702 00:37:53,166 --> 00:37:57,631 gonna say one of the phrases that we've spoken to today, spoken about 703 00:37:57,631 --> 00:38:02,011 today, and then like picturing yourself getting to the end of that interaction. 704 00:38:02,491 --> 00:38:04,321 Um, and then you could just rehearse that. 705 00:38:04,321 --> 00:38:07,561 So in, in the mdr r we would pair that up with, with tapping. 706 00:38:07,941 --> 00:38:11,601 So obviously if you choose to tap, that's kind of at your own risk 'cause you're not 707 00:38:11,601 --> 00:38:14,421 in an MDR kind of setting in a therapy. 708 00:38:14,795 --> 00:38:18,621 But certainly visually practicing and rehearsing something and how you 709 00:38:18,621 --> 00:38:22,311 can handle it can be really valuable as a tool, even without the tapping. 710 00:38:22,642 --> 00:38:25,312 That sounds like a really useful, um, thing. 711 00:38:25,312 --> 00:38:27,442 I mean, you know, visualization of anything's good, isn't it? 712 00:38:27,442 --> 00:38:30,682 You're starting to lay down those mental pathways before it's even happened and 713 00:38:30,682 --> 00:38:34,372 you're sort of predicting behavior, which probably will never exactly happen, 714 00:38:34,372 --> 00:38:37,492 but at least you're sort of got some strategies that you've already thought 715 00:38:37,492 --> 00:38:40,642 of, like, well, if I find myself getting really, really triggered, this is the 716 00:38:40,642 --> 00:38:44,362 phrase I'm gonna use to get myself out of it, or I'm gonna make sure I, 717 00:38:44,362 --> 00:38:47,482 like you said, I use the eye phrase, it's like, I'm feeling this and I'm 718 00:38:47,482 --> 00:38:50,452 feeling that, so let's, let's just, rather than going, you are attacking me, 719 00:38:50,452 --> 00:38:52,432 therefore I'm gonna do this or whatever. 720 00:38:52,432 --> 00:38:54,025 But, um, it's a work in progress. 721 00:38:54,025 --> 00:38:56,785 And it sounds like the main thing is sort of understanding 722 00:38:56,785 --> 00:38:57,745 where people are coming from. 723 00:38:57,745 --> 00:38:59,575 I think sometimes just context is everything. 724 00:38:59,575 --> 00:39:00,835 If you know that a colleague. 725 00:39:00,980 --> 00:39:04,430 Is tricky yet you understand the experiences that they've had in the 726 00:39:04,430 --> 00:39:08,600 past, you'll forgive them anything really, you know, um, if you know that 727 00:39:08,960 --> 00:39:13,040 they've had a, a bad reaction with a dog, for example, when a dog comes and 728 00:39:13,040 --> 00:39:15,680 you can see them like thing and being a bit snappy with you around a dog, well 729 00:39:15,680 --> 00:39:17,420 you go, yeah, of course you like that. 730 00:39:18,080 --> 00:39:20,780 So the more you get to know people, the the better it is. 731 00:39:20,780 --> 00:39:22,130 'cause you just understand the context. 732 00:39:22,130 --> 00:39:24,980 Although I think there's that caveat of don't assume just 'cause you 733 00:39:24,980 --> 00:39:27,290 know somebody well, that you really know what's gone on in the past. 734 00:39:27,350 --> 00:39:28,280 You might not right. 735 00:39:28,886 --> 00:39:32,931 So Claire, can you give us your three top tips for sort of regulating 736 00:39:32,931 --> 00:39:36,381 yourself, co-regulating other people in, in a situation where 737 00:39:36,381 --> 00:39:39,231 someone is being a tricky person? 738 00:39:39,769 --> 00:39:40,609 Three top tips. 739 00:39:40,609 --> 00:39:44,959 So it would be just notice your own physiology, that you're 740 00:39:44,959 --> 00:39:46,099 struggling to think straight. 741 00:39:46,579 --> 00:39:49,849 Give yourself permission to step back and just tend to that. 742 00:39:50,358 --> 00:39:53,312 And try and if you can just try and communicate that. 743 00:39:53,312 --> 00:39:56,672 I'm just taking a moment, you know, because there's a lot that's just 744 00:39:56,672 --> 00:39:58,652 come at me and I can't do my job. 745 00:39:58,652 --> 00:40:01,412 I think those would probably be, I know I'm just rehashing what we've already 746 00:40:01,412 --> 00:40:06,152 said, but I think those feel like if it's anger, um, like don't expect 747 00:40:06,152 --> 00:40:09,842 yourself to be able to perform, like you were saying, at the same level you 748 00:40:09,842 --> 00:40:13,387 would if you were, had all your frontal lobes online because you were calm. 749 00:40:13,687 --> 00:40:14,287 I love that. 750 00:40:14,287 --> 00:40:18,487 Is that sort of like, that's my main takeaway from this is like communicate 751 00:40:18,487 --> 00:40:23,797 my frontal lobe's just gone offline, so I can't, I, I can't deal with this in 752 00:40:23,837 --> 00:40:26,707 the way that I really want to deal with it, so I'm gonna, I'm gonna need to step 753 00:40:26,707 --> 00:40:30,217 out or whether, but Claire, that's so, that's so helpful that every time we 754 00:40:30,217 --> 00:40:33,727 speak to you, there's, there's, there's more stuff and, um, gosh, there's so 755 00:40:33,727 --> 00:40:35,017 much more we can, we can talk about. 756 00:40:35,017 --> 00:40:36,727 So we'll get you back if that's okay. 757 00:40:37,212 --> 00:40:41,322 In the meantime, if people wanna find out more about you and your wonderful book, 758 00:40:41,322 --> 00:40:45,132 which a colleague of mine, a consultant urologist, just has described as the best 759 00:40:45,132 --> 00:40:49,122 explanation of the sort of polyvagal, dorsal ventral, vagal, or whatever 760 00:40:49,122 --> 00:40:50,682 it's called, system he's ever read. 761 00:40:50,742 --> 00:40:52,512 So high praise Claire. 762 00:40:52,512 --> 00:40:54,492 Honestly, it's a really, really good book. 763 00:40:54,552 --> 00:40:56,922 Um, you, we'll put a link in the show notes, but where else 764 00:40:56,922 --> 00:40:58,002 can people find, find you? 765 00:40:58,075 --> 00:41:01,332 Yeah, and just say it's also available as an audio book, for 766 00:41:01,332 --> 00:41:04,062 people who listen to this, probably consume a lot of audio books. 767 00:41:04,062 --> 00:41:06,432 So it's Burnout, How to Manage Your Nervous System before it manages You. 768 00:41:06,882 --> 00:41:08,442 Um, yeah, I'm on the social medias. 769 00:41:08,442 --> 00:41:11,562 I'm on uh, LinkedIn and Instagram and Facebook. 770 00:41:11,958 --> 00:41:15,132 and I've got a website, drclaireplumbly.com where you can find 771 00:41:15,132 --> 00:41:17,142 me and my associates if you want therapy. 772 00:41:17,512 --> 00:41:20,962 We also do EMDR, like you said, as as an intensive format. 773 00:41:20,992 --> 00:41:23,872 If people kind of feel like I've got a bit of leave coming up and I've got something 774 00:41:23,872 --> 00:41:27,652 I really wanna go deep on, um, it's good for people to know that that is an option. 775 00:41:27,742 --> 00:41:31,906 Yeah, an EMDR is a treatment for post-traumatic stress, isn't it? 776 00:41:32,291 --> 00:41:32,826 or trauma? 777 00:41:32,826 --> 00:41:36,216 Yeah, you're right, it's a trauma treatment, but now we apply it to 778 00:41:36,216 --> 00:41:39,396 lots of different things, not just PTSD, because often there's some 779 00:41:39,396 --> 00:41:43,656 sort of trauma, at least little Ty trauma, um, that's coming from that, 780 00:41:43,716 --> 00:41:46,686 so we'll, we'll put links to past podcast talks about little T trauma, 781 00:41:46,836 --> 00:41:50,461 but do to check it out and, and really if you are struggling with this stuff, 782 00:41:51,311 --> 00:41:56,531 therapy is genuinely eye-opening and changes, changes, everything. 783 00:41:56,531 --> 00:41:57,551 It's about that understanding. 784 00:41:57,551 --> 00:42:01,181 So, um, yeah, I would seek out a good therapist and Claire and the gang 785 00:42:01,211 --> 00:42:04,751 are a, a really good, a really good bunch and I'd recommend them highly. 786 00:42:04,751 --> 00:42:06,996 So thank you so much for being on the podcast. 787 00:42:06,996 --> 00:42:08,004 We'll speak again soon. 788 00:42:08,100 --> 00:42:08,505 Thank you. 789 00:42:08,505 --> 00:42:08,955 Bye. 790 00:42:10,422 --> 00:42:11,352 Thanks for listening. 791 00:42:11,452 --> 00:42:15,912 Don't forget, you can get extra bonus episodes and audio courses along with 792 00:42:16,002 --> 00:42:20,832 unlimited access to our library of videos and CPD workbooks by joining 793 00:42:20,912 --> 00:42:25,372 FrogXtra and FrogXtra Gold, our memberships to help busy professionals 794 00:42:25,372 --> 00:42:28,342 like you beat burnout and work happier. 795 00:42:28,716 --> 00:42:32,236 Find out more at youarenotafrog.com/members.