1 00:00:01,350 --> 00:00:05,100 Steven Baxter, welcome to the Plant Yourself Podcast. 2 00:00:05,850 --> 00:00:06,439 Thank you, Howie. 3 00:00:06,439 --> 00:00:07,410 It's good to be with you. 4 00:00:08,070 --> 00:00:08,460 And I cope. 5 00:00:08,460 --> 00:00:10,445 You cope with my Aussie accent. 6 00:00:10,930 --> 00:00:14,829 I think, yeah, we, I'm sure there's, AI software that can turn it into something 7 00:00:14,829 --> 00:00:16,630 that, that Americans can understand. 8 00:00:16,825 --> 00:00:19,290 But yeah, there's, but there's a, there's, I think there's a fair amount 9 00:00:19,290 --> 00:00:23,080 that we're gonna have to culturally translates to to make sense of you and 10 00:00:23,080 --> 00:00:24,500 what you do and what you care about. 11 00:00:24,500 --> 00:00:27,095 Can you just begin with a brief introduction of you 12 00:00:28,084 --> 00:00:28,444 Yes. 13 00:00:28,444 --> 00:00:30,514 I live in a place called Tasmania. 14 00:00:31,145 --> 00:00:34,084 Most people know us from a Tasmanian devil. 15 00:00:34,595 --> 00:00:40,995 From the, no years ago on the tv, what was it with the Tasmanian 16 00:00:41,110 --> 00:00:41,320 Yeah. 17 00:00:41,345 --> 00:00:43,355 I think I had a phobia of that. 18 00:00:43,355 --> 00:00:44,125 It would, he would like. 19 00:00:44,485 --> 00:00:47,785 He would go like in really fast circles and like bore underground. 20 00:00:47,790 --> 00:00:48,030 Yeah. 21 00:00:48,625 --> 00:00:49,195 Yeah, that's right. 22 00:00:49,225 --> 00:00:51,145 Nothing like a Tasmanian devil, but yeah. 23 00:00:51,545 --> 00:00:56,845 That's so we have the tiny little animals about this big that, sadly get roadkill. 24 00:00:56,845 --> 00:00:59,725 So yeah, we're right at the bottom of Australia. 25 00:00:59,725 --> 00:01:03,295 So we're a little island down the bottom of Australia named after 26 00:01:03,295 --> 00:01:07,295 a guy called Abel Tasman who ran into it in his ship many years ago. 27 00:01:08,015 --> 00:01:12,005 And we're a population of half a million people with, we are our own 28 00:01:12,005 --> 00:01:18,220 state and got our own parliament and a very regional based island 29 00:01:18,520 --> 00:01:21,070 with half of it now tied up in. 30 00:01:21,400 --> 00:01:25,300 National Forest and Heritage listing and a lot of things like that. 31 00:01:25,660 --> 00:01:26,080 gotcha. 32 00:01:26,080 --> 00:01:26,410 Gotcha. 33 00:01:26,410 --> 00:01:29,170 So living in Catalonia, Spain, I have to ask, is there a 34 00:01:29,170 --> 00:01:31,540 separatist movement in Tasmania? 35 00:01:32,470 --> 00:01:33,700 Not really. 36 00:01:33,850 --> 00:01:34,570 Not really. 37 00:01:34,630 --> 00:01:37,075 I think there'd be, there's a lot of people who want to keep it a secret. 38 00:01:37,670 --> 00:01:42,080 But yeah, the rest of Australia helps us by subsidizing our lifestyle. 39 00:01:42,080 --> 00:01:43,610 So it's good to be part of Australia. 40 00:01:43,610 --> 00:01:46,825 Gotcha, Gotcha and tell me what you do there. 41 00:01:48,625 --> 00:01:50,005 I do a number of different things. 42 00:01:50,105 --> 00:01:52,865 I have been a pastor of a church up till recently. 43 00:01:53,235 --> 00:01:56,415 But also in my life I've done things like, I've been in publishing, 44 00:01:57,465 --> 00:02:01,655 I've been in housing, social housing as well, and in training. 45 00:02:01,655 --> 00:02:03,425 So I've done a lot of things over the years. 46 00:02:03,825 --> 00:02:07,225 This part of my life, I'm more into, leadership development, 47 00:02:07,225 --> 00:02:09,325 mentoring people, that sort of thing. 48 00:02:09,325 --> 00:02:13,345 I have a relationship with a lot of our leaders across the state, 49 00:02:13,345 --> 00:02:16,695 particularly our parliamentarians state parliamentarians and federal. 50 00:02:17,265 --> 00:02:19,600 So yeah, in the leadership space a lot. 51 00:02:20,650 --> 00:02:24,015 Yeah, so that's one of the things that I wanted to explore with you 52 00:02:24,255 --> 00:02:27,255 because, it's a self-contained state. 53 00:02:27,255 --> 00:02:33,405 It's an island that half a million people, and I think it's often hard to 54 00:02:33,405 --> 00:02:35,565 draw a direct line between leadership. 55 00:02:36,045 --> 00:02:39,105 I. And quality of life and quality. 56 00:02:39,215 --> 00:02:41,195 And I think in some ways you do that, right? 57 00:02:41,195 --> 00:02:45,385 You convene an annual event in which, the leaders come, the opposition 58 00:02:45,385 --> 00:02:50,465 leaders, and you, and I think I'd love to hear from you as leaders develop and 59 00:02:50,465 --> 00:02:55,835 as leadership is seen as an important human skill, like how that translates 60 00:02:55,955 --> 00:02:58,145 into reality and not just abstraction. 61 00:02:58,730 --> 00:03:01,190 Look, that's a such a good question, Howie. 62 00:03:01,320 --> 00:03:03,990 Because we are small, it means that we know each other. 63 00:03:04,590 --> 00:03:07,290 And I was speaking with one of our parliamentary. 64 00:03:07,560 --> 00:03:08,820 Leaders this afternoon. 65 00:03:08,820 --> 00:03:11,770 She said, you you can't scratch your bum without someone 66 00:03:11,770 --> 00:03:13,090 else knowing what's going on. 67 00:03:13,510 --> 00:03:16,130 And she's a good friend. 68 00:03:16,130 --> 00:03:21,040 And so that makes leadership a really interesting journey where you know 69 00:03:21,040 --> 00:03:24,070 that the implications of your decisions are going to affect other people. 70 00:03:24,595 --> 00:03:29,165 And there is, a tight-knit communities means you go a bit more 71 00:03:29,165 --> 00:03:31,955 with a status quo or the loudest voice or something like that. 72 00:03:31,955 --> 00:03:33,515 So it's really difficult to change. 73 00:03:34,115 --> 00:03:38,585 So yeah, I, I haven't got an easy answer for your question. 74 00:03:38,765 --> 00:03:43,625 How are, except gentle walking with each other, learning to listen well 75 00:03:43,625 --> 00:03:48,115 with each other and now it's around having a story or a narrative big 76 00:03:48,115 --> 00:03:49,465 enough to encourage one another. 77 00:03:49,515 --> 00:03:50,205 It's complex, I think. 78 00:03:50,610 --> 00:03:51,210 Yeah. 79 00:03:51,270 --> 00:03:56,120 So what, I'm, most of us who work in leadership work in organizations 80 00:03:56,120 --> 00:03:58,970 and typically for-profit companies. 81 00:03:59,420 --> 00:04:02,960 And there's some, and that's how we think of leadership. 82 00:04:03,840 --> 00:04:04,700 That's what all, all the 83 00:04:04,700 --> 00:04:06,260 books are written because that's what. 84 00:04:06,620 --> 00:04:07,400 Sales, 85 00:04:07,670 --> 00:04:09,800 coaching and consulting and all the other stuff. 86 00:04:10,310 --> 00:04:15,170 And yet when, like when I step back, I look at organizations at for-profit 87 00:04:15,170 --> 00:04:18,080 companies and they're dictatorships, 88 00:04:18,650 --> 00:04:18,890 right? 89 00:04:18,890 --> 00:04:20,370 They're not they're not democracies. 90 00:04:20,370 --> 00:04:21,480 They're not healthy. 91 00:04:21,690 --> 00:04:23,340 If someone doesn't 92 00:04:23,340 --> 00:04:26,789 agree with the leader they're at some level, they're going to be kicked out. 93 00:04:27,900 --> 00:04:27,900 Yep. 94 00:04:28,570 --> 00:04:28,810 Yeah. 95 00:04:28,810 --> 00:04:31,120 Look, it's good observation. 96 00:04:31,120 --> 00:04:35,320 I've worked in not-for-profits most of my life, and the interesting thing. 97 00:04:35,945 --> 00:04:39,875 And so let's say a church situation, which I explained before, let's say a 98 00:04:39,905 --> 00:04:43,235 church situation, people come voluntarily. 99 00:04:43,995 --> 00:04:47,534 You haven't gotta pay at the end of the day that says come along. 100 00:04:47,924 --> 00:04:50,294 They come along because you've, they've got a narrative, they've 101 00:04:50,294 --> 00:04:54,251 got a a story that they want to be part of, a journey that they're on. 102 00:04:54,700 --> 00:04:58,090 And yeah, it's a very different form of leadership than when you've got a bit 103 00:04:58,090 --> 00:05:02,140 of a stick, as you're saying, or a pay packet to encourage people to change, 104 00:05:02,191 --> 00:05:08,840 I think it's a very different form of leadership where relationship narrative 105 00:05:09,180 --> 00:05:10,650 is a really important part of it. 106 00:05:11,070 --> 00:05:12,900 In fact, sometimes it's the only thing you've got 107 00:05:14,160 --> 00:05:15,930 Yeah, so that's what I'd love to explore with you. 108 00:05:15,960 --> 00:05:18,810 'cause like in the United States right now, there 109 00:05:18,810 --> 00:05:21,940 is this a I'll be as kind as I can. 110 00:05:22,190 --> 00:05:26,600 There, there is a sense that there has been a sense that government is broken 111 00:05:26,600 --> 00:05:28,310 and what it needs is businessmen. 112 00:05:29,420 --> 00:05:29,690 Yep. 113 00:05:30,280 --> 00:05:30,430 And 114 00:05:30,430 --> 00:05:32,110 we're seeing how that's going now. 115 00:05:32,950 --> 00:05:38,050 And we're seeing the li the limits of the transferability of that model. 116 00:05:38,270 --> 00:05:42,170 And I feel like the way we talk about leadership and, that it's. 117 00:05:42,500 --> 00:05:47,565 The assumption is that it's gonna be Steve Jobs or, A-A-C-E-O or even a 118 00:05:47,565 --> 00:05:51,625 military general are seen as the avatars of leadership, like in, not in the 119 00:05:51,625 --> 00:05:55,465 nonprofit world and in the civic world. 120 00:05:56,005 --> 00:05:56,635 You mentioned 121 00:05:56,635 --> 00:06:00,045 story, journey invitations. 122 00:06:00,295 --> 00:06:05,275 What do you see as the qualities of leadership that are truly important? 123 00:06:05,885 --> 00:06:07,370 On, on a human level? 124 00:06:08,120 --> 00:06:11,960 Yeah, obviously relatability is important. 125 00:06:11,960 --> 00:06:12,330 Now the. 126 00:06:13,240 --> 00:06:17,530 The irony, isn't it, of what's happening in America to some extent, and let's 127 00:06:17,530 --> 00:06:18,940 name it, I can name it from here. 128 00:06:18,940 --> 00:06:21,730 Tassie miles away from the rest of the world. 129 00:06:22,140 --> 00:06:27,420 Now Trump is a businessman and works transactionally and as a boss, and yet 130 00:06:27,420 --> 00:06:33,265 was able to carry a narrative that he was somehow arguing for the working man. 131 00:06:33,645 --> 00:06:39,105 And got voted in on base of that, which seems an irony from that distance. 132 00:06:39,255 --> 00:06:43,725 But he did find a way to capture a narrative that enough people believed 133 00:06:43,725 --> 00:06:46,905 in and voted for him, whether they liked what he's doing now. 134 00:06:46,905 --> 00:06:49,095 So I think the narrative thing worked. 135 00:06:49,515 --> 00:06:53,815 I don't think it's necessarily it's a sad one in some ways, but it did. 136 00:06:53,965 --> 00:06:56,845 It does reinforce what I'm suggesting 137 00:06:57,335 --> 00:07:00,035 I see it as a narrative of grievance and exclusion. 138 00:07:01,355 --> 00:07:04,275 Yeah, I think that's true, but it comes from that. 139 00:07:04,365 --> 00:07:08,625 But it was also, the maga Make America Great again is 140 00:07:08,625 --> 00:07:10,365 an aspirational thing as well. 141 00:07:10,365 --> 00:07:14,875 So that's not just it's building off grievance and 142 00:07:14,875 --> 00:07:16,615 disappointment and frustration. 143 00:07:16,795 --> 00:07:20,125 But it was a positive thing to try and call people to in some. 144 00:07:20,770 --> 00:07:24,550 Some sense, whether you're getting that or not, it's another, whether that's 145 00:07:24,550 --> 00:07:26,135 what's happening is another question. 146 00:07:26,405 --> 00:07:30,605 So I think, I think linked with that, we are a bit scared of charismatic leaders a 147 00:07:30,605 --> 00:07:34,685 little bit, particularly post-Second World War and what Hitler did with Germany. 148 00:07:34,925 --> 00:07:39,035 That big charismatic leader that can tell a story and draw people 149 00:07:39,035 --> 00:07:41,555 together we want to be wary of it. 150 00:07:41,555 --> 00:07:42,065 And yet. 151 00:07:42,620 --> 00:07:46,380 We are attracted to it at the same time, so it's a we. 152 00:07:46,650 --> 00:07:50,310 We just gotta learn how to do it well, and we need good leaders who can do it well. 153 00:07:50,445 --> 00:07:50,745 Yeah. 154 00:07:50,745 --> 00:07:52,605 Is it partly a matter of scale? 155 00:07:52,665 --> 00:07:56,615 Like when you look at leaders that you work with, is it more likely that a 156 00:07:56,615 --> 00:08:02,990 charismatic leader at a. Community level or a small nonprofit will be more aligned 157 00:08:02,990 --> 00:08:09,510 or more sensitive to the greater good than someone who's ruling a state of millions 158 00:08:09,510 --> 00:08:10,770 of people that they'll never meet. 159 00:08:12,030 --> 00:08:13,410 Yeah, it's a good question. 160 00:08:14,860 --> 00:08:16,811 I don't, not sure I know the answer to that one. 161 00:08:16,811 --> 00:08:17,291 Howie. 162 00:08:17,291 --> 00:08:23,265 I now I think of my son who played Australian Rules Football, who had a coach 163 00:08:23,836 --> 00:08:28,156 who, he didn't have the best team, but he won the Grand Final because he knew 164 00:08:28,156 --> 00:08:29,746 how to tell a narrative and get those. 165 00:08:30,076 --> 00:08:35,176 Those 14-year-old boys working together in a football team to win a grand final. 166 00:08:35,176 --> 00:08:40,036 So now there, there are people like that at a grassroots level in their 167 00:08:40,036 --> 00:08:43,276 community that hold their communities together that are really critical. 168 00:08:43,276 --> 00:08:49,051 I think how that translates into, a two party preferred system like 169 00:08:49,051 --> 00:08:52,616 you've got in American, we have in Australia with charismatic leaders. 170 00:08:52,706 --> 00:08:54,866 Ah, it it's a hard one, isn't it? 171 00:08:54,926 --> 00:08:58,016 'cause gets more complex and I think that's what you're suggesting. 172 00:08:58,271 --> 00:08:58,661 Yeah. 173 00:08:58,661 --> 00:09:05,121 I think I'm suggesting that the models of leadership that, that householders see 174 00:09:05,691 --> 00:09:11,091 are not necessarily the best ones for, and so I'm I'm, I think one of the reasons 175 00:09:11,091 --> 00:09:19,461 I'm reaching out to you is to explore the leadership models that aren't bestsellers. 176 00:09:20,211 --> 00:09:20,501 Yeah. 177 00:09:20,506 --> 00:09:24,121 Yeah I agree because we. 178 00:09:24,976 --> 00:09:29,596 We need people who are humble enough to listen to other points of view who 179 00:09:29,596 --> 00:09:36,156 are not, don't have to be a, an A type gung ho person to run an organization. 180 00:09:37,036 --> 00:09:42,736 The way I've been thinking about it and exploring it, how is the difference 181 00:09:42,751 --> 00:09:50,051 between a leader who has a group of followers and a leader who has a group of. 182 00:09:50,591 --> 00:09:51,161 Peers. 183 00:09:51,671 --> 00:09:55,721 So a leader who leads leaders as opposed to a leader who leads followers. 184 00:09:56,201 --> 00:10:00,791 And I think leaders who lead leaders need to operate in a very different space. 185 00:10:01,421 --> 00:10:03,551 And I dunno that we talk a lot about that. 186 00:10:03,851 --> 00:10:05,096 Let's talk a lot about that. 187 00:10:06,521 --> 00:10:06,881 Yeah. 188 00:10:06,881 --> 00:10:06,882 Yeah. 189 00:10:07,016 --> 00:10:10,736 Now one scenario is if you're a leader of followers, everyone's behind you, 190 00:10:10,736 --> 00:10:12,286 and that's the John Maxwell quote. 191 00:10:12,286 --> 00:10:13,816 Now, how do you know you're a leader? 192 00:10:13,846 --> 00:10:15,286 Look around and see who's following you. 193 00:10:15,576 --> 00:10:18,966 There is a certain level where we need people who know how to get a 194 00:10:18,966 --> 00:10:25,206 group of leaders in the room who all have their own agenda, who all have 195 00:10:25,206 --> 00:10:30,396 their own patch to protect, but are willing to be open and humble enough 196 00:10:30,396 --> 00:10:34,326 to hear another person's point of view and collaborate for the common good. 197 00:10:34,716 --> 00:10:38,346 And I'm not sure we have a lot of people, we don't foster them, as you say. 198 00:10:38,346 --> 00:10:39,726 We don't hear much about them. 199 00:10:39,726 --> 00:10:43,341 It's not the norm of talking about that type of leader because. 200 00:10:43,781 --> 00:10:48,821 I know, I feel as if I'm talking a lot, but now our organizations are 201 00:10:48,821 --> 00:10:53,291 developed, as you rightly said, with the, they're there to have the hierarchy 202 00:10:53,291 --> 00:10:56,621 of the person at the top who's got the vision, who's gung-ho for it. 203 00:10:57,401 --> 00:11:01,241 That's the breeding, that's what we breed for, but we're looking for a leader that 204 00:11:01,241 --> 00:11:03,431 can transcend that into another place. 205 00:11:04,061 --> 00:11:05,531 And yeah, we don't have lots of them. 206 00:11:05,946 --> 00:11:06,426 Yeah. 207 00:11:06,666 --> 00:11:08,706 And I think people don't see themselves. 208 00:11:09,441 --> 00:11:11,251 So like I one of the things I'm doing these days, I'm 209 00:11:11,251 --> 00:11:13,141 training coaches, and I got 210 00:11:13,141 --> 00:11:16,736 a message from someone who said, I, I am, I'm a quiet person. 211 00:11:16,736 --> 00:11:17,396 I'm not really a 212 00:11:17,396 --> 00:11:18,686 gung-ho motivator. 213 00:11:18,696 --> 00:11:22,486 How can I be a coach if I'm not a motivator, like a Tony Robbins type? 214 00:11:22,486 --> 00:11:25,946 And of course I'm thinking, of course there's, that's not, that's not 215 00:11:25,946 --> 00:11:27,296 what coaches do. 216 00:11:27,626 --> 00:11:29,696 We're not, and I think for similarly. 217 00:11:30,026 --> 00:11:35,126 Most people who are listening to this are not leaders of countries or 218 00:11:35,126 --> 00:11:37,076 corporations or even organizations. 219 00:11:37,076 --> 00:11:38,186 They're just, like people like you. 220 00:11:38,186 --> 00:11:38,706 And we're just 221 00:11:38,706 --> 00:11:40,956 out about in the world doing our thing, 222 00:11:41,256 --> 00:11:45,246 and we don't necessarily think of ourselves in leadership. 223 00:11:46,996 --> 00:11:49,276 Not even roles, but in leadership energy. 224 00:11:49,516 --> 00:11:49,966 And yet 225 00:11:49,966 --> 00:11:52,961 what you're talking about is what's accessible to everyone. 226 00:11:52,961 --> 00:11:58,561 If I'm a, if I'm a leader of peers, then situationally, I'm at a, let's 227 00:11:58,561 --> 00:12:02,011 say I'm at a meeting of my ultimate Frisbee team, which is, everyone just 228 00:12:02,011 --> 00:12:05,551 volunteers and we're trying to figure out are we going to this tournament? 229 00:12:05,551 --> 00:12:07,831 Are we gonna try to raise money, are we gonna do some kids 230 00:12:07,831 --> 00:12:08,641 programs? 231 00:12:08,941 --> 00:12:09,631 And I have no. 232 00:12:10,076 --> 00:12:10,736 Authority. 233 00:12:10,736 --> 00:12:12,356 I don't even speak the language as well as 234 00:12:13,076 --> 00:12:13,556 Anyone else. 235 00:12:13,676 --> 00:12:18,686 And yet there's invitations for me to take on leadership 236 00:12:19,696 --> 00:12:23,896 In setting direction, in asking questions, in supporting others. 237 00:12:24,226 --> 00:12:24,916 And I think 238 00:12:24,916 --> 00:12:29,176 for almost all of us there is, there's leadership available to 239 00:12:29,176 --> 00:12:36,036 us that we don't grasp fully or effectively because of that divide. 240 00:12:36,036 --> 00:12:38,106 We don't think of ourselves as leaders. 241 00:12:38,771 --> 00:12:41,491 Yeah, I think you're hitting the nail on the head, Howie. 242 00:12:41,491 --> 00:12:42,691 I agree totally. 243 00:12:43,111 --> 00:12:45,481 And this is where I probably do agree with Maxwell. 244 00:12:45,481 --> 00:12:47,761 He talks about leadership being influenced. 245 00:12:48,271 --> 00:12:50,971 So anyone who's in a group of people and influences the 246 00:12:50,971 --> 00:12:53,791 decision at a level is a leader. 247 00:12:54,076 --> 00:12:57,526 Whether they fit the box of what they think a leader is, they're actually 248 00:12:57,526 --> 00:12:59,225 contributing to leading the group. 249 00:12:59,225 --> 00:13:04,265 And I, I think if we moved from thinking of not people as leaders, 250 00:13:04,265 --> 00:13:08,195 but as leadership, where is the leadership coming in this group? 251 00:13:08,465 --> 00:13:13,685 Then sometimes leadership is distributed quite now across a group. 252 00:13:14,015 --> 00:13:15,545 And how does a decision made? 253 00:13:15,545 --> 00:13:19,055 A lot of people have influenced it, and so I think a good leader. 254 00:13:20,001 --> 00:13:24,141 A leader of leaders facilitates the process so that a good decision 255 00:13:24,141 --> 00:13:27,501 can be made, doesn't feel they, they have to be the one that makes 256 00:13:27,501 --> 00:13:28,911 the decision, if that makes sense. 257 00:13:29,360 --> 00:13:33,810 And I often thought about it with my kid and I got five kids and a wife obviously. 258 00:13:34,110 --> 00:13:37,250 And now when we were going away on holidays I thought of my 259 00:13:37,250 --> 00:13:41,000 leadership was things like, okay, kids we're getting in the car now. 260 00:13:41,975 --> 00:13:42,605 Now's the time 261 00:13:43,145 --> 00:13:46,565 now how it all happened and all the rest of it didn't matter, but someone had 262 00:13:46,565 --> 00:13:48,425 to actually say, we're doing it now. 263 00:13:48,995 --> 00:13:53,780 And that was my contribution to my family to get us onto a holiday. 264 00:13:54,200 --> 00:13:57,080 There was so many other things that were involved in going on a holiday 265 00:13:57,080 --> 00:13:58,970 that my wife picked up and I picked up. 266 00:13:59,630 --> 00:14:03,680 But some people think that sometimes when you make that call, that makes 267 00:14:03,680 --> 00:14:05,600 you the big leader you might have. 268 00:14:06,395 --> 00:14:08,645 It's only a small part of the jigsaw really. 269 00:14:09,026 --> 00:14:10,885 But somehow we've elevated that bit. 270 00:14:11,695 --> 00:14:15,475 So just going back to your illustration with the Frisbee, you can facilitate 271 00:14:15,475 --> 00:14:19,255 and be part of the decision making process, and no one even thought you 272 00:14:19,255 --> 00:14:21,865 was a leader, but you probably helped. 273 00:14:22,675 --> 00:14:22,915 So 274 00:14:23,455 --> 00:14:26,526 Yeah, it seems like a, musical improv where, 275 00:14:26,670 --> 00:14:26,961 Yeah. 276 00:14:27,336 --> 00:14:27,636 Yeah. 277 00:14:27,665 --> 00:14:29,226 you get you get the melody 278 00:14:29,646 --> 00:14:31,266 for a few seconds, you do your 279 00:14:31,266 --> 00:14:33,726 best with it, you pass it on, and 280 00:14:33,726 --> 00:14:35,191 then you go back to playing chords. 281 00:14:35,336 --> 00:14:35,626 yeah. 282 00:14:36,091 --> 00:14:36,301 Yeah. 283 00:14:36,366 --> 00:14:38,226 I think that's a really great way of seeing it. 284 00:14:38,226 --> 00:14:43,666 And if everyone knows the rules of the game, you can make beautiful music. 285 00:14:44,386 --> 00:14:49,156 It can be wonderful and be inspiring, and if you don't, then 286 00:14:49,156 --> 00:14:51,045 it can actually be absolute chaos. 287 00:14:51,095 --> 00:14:51,455 Yeah. 288 00:14:52,725 --> 00:14:56,190 And if you're riffing based on ego, it's going to get in your way. 289 00:14:57,100 --> 00:14:57,390 Okay. 290 00:14:57,645 --> 00:14:58,305 That's right. 291 00:14:58,845 --> 00:14:59,175 Yeah. 292 00:14:59,655 --> 00:14:59,745 Yeah. 293 00:14:59,745 --> 00:15:02,266 I think that jazz analogy is a really good one. 294 00:15:02,396 --> 00:15:07,675 How, and I think it's also, in that, going back to your illustration of some 295 00:15:07,675 --> 00:15:11,455 of the people you mentor or coach who are not sure about their leadership, 296 00:15:11,725 --> 00:15:16,315 if you are in a group of musicians and all of a sudden it's your turn. 297 00:15:17,080 --> 00:15:20,920 You need to step up to the plate and riff and not leave a gap. 298 00:15:21,550 --> 00:15:25,296 And so it's a good analogy isn't it, of being passed around and when 299 00:15:25,296 --> 00:15:30,626 it's my bit, I contribute my bit and yeah, it would be great if we could 300 00:15:30,656 --> 00:15:35,156 work out a way for that to happen, maybe a bit better in our community. 301 00:15:35,771 --> 00:15:41,351 So when you, the work you do with people who trade the mantle of leadership 302 00:15:41,351 --> 00:15:47,801 back and forth and what are the skills that people have to learn and practice 303 00:15:47,831 --> 00:15:49,151 in order to get better at this? 304 00:15:50,036 --> 00:15:50,396 Yeah. 305 00:15:50,966 --> 00:15:55,826 For me, one of the main things, how is being willing to look at yourself. 306 00:15:56,516 --> 00:15:59,726 The friends that your people you are talking about who say, I'm not a leader. 307 00:16:00,086 --> 00:16:01,641 Part of the question I get that. 308 00:16:01,971 --> 00:16:05,216 I remember for, so many years I would say I'm a good two ic. 309 00:16:05,216 --> 00:16:06,176 I don't wanna be a leader. 310 00:16:06,226 --> 00:16:12,226 And it, I had to come to the point in myself of saying, okay, I am a 311 00:16:12,226 --> 00:16:14,116 leader because I have influence. 312 00:16:14,806 --> 00:16:18,516 And so there was an inner mindset that I've had to go through in this journey. 313 00:16:18,516 --> 00:16:21,246 And I think part of that, and you would find it in your coaching, 314 00:16:21,246 --> 00:16:22,626 it's just helping people. 315 00:16:23,316 --> 00:16:26,836 To think of it whatever way as a jazz band, whatever I've 316 00:16:26,836 --> 00:16:28,156 got a contribution to make. 317 00:16:28,156 --> 00:16:32,506 So I think part of my journey walking alongside others is 318 00:16:32,506 --> 00:16:34,006 helping 'em to embrace that. 319 00:16:34,456 --> 00:16:38,736 An example would be person I was talking to probably about five weeks ago now. 320 00:16:39,276 --> 00:16:41,886 They said to me, I that they are a good two ic. 321 00:16:42,246 --> 00:16:43,261 A, a good what? 322 00:16:43,846 --> 00:16:45,526 two IC second in command 323 00:16:45,976 --> 00:16:46,246 two. 324 00:16:46,261 --> 00:16:46,831 know two I. 325 00:16:47,011 --> 00:16:47,071 Yeah. 326 00:16:48,211 --> 00:16:48,901 Two IC. 327 00:16:49,231 --> 00:16:49,531 Yeah. 328 00:16:49,791 --> 00:16:50,151 Good. 329 00:16:50,241 --> 00:16:53,931 Number two, not good number one, but he's really good at backing 330 00:16:53,931 --> 00:16:55,941 up and helping another person. 331 00:16:56,541 --> 00:16:59,901 And I said to him, I looked him in the eye and I said, rubbish. 332 00:17:00,441 --> 00:17:01,581 That's very strange. 333 00:17:01,671 --> 00:17:04,116 Now that's not true, I. I don't agree with you. 334 00:17:04,391 --> 00:17:08,081 And explained to him what I saw him doing, how good he is doing 335 00:17:08,081 --> 00:17:11,091 different things and said I'm really gonna challenge you on that. 336 00:17:11,091 --> 00:17:14,061 And the reason I can is because I've said it for too long as well. 337 00:17:14,511 --> 00:17:18,071 And you, I encourage you to see yourself as a leader. 338 00:17:18,941 --> 00:17:22,001 He came back to me after that and said, can you mentor me because you 339 00:17:22,001 --> 00:17:23,621 were right and I need to step up. 340 00:17:24,341 --> 00:17:26,621 And I think part of it is encouraging people. 341 00:17:26,621 --> 00:17:27,461 That's so that's. 342 00:17:27,956 --> 00:17:29,846 It's our mindset, I think is a big one. 343 00:17:30,506 --> 00:17:32,786 So that's one change. 344 00:17:33,296 --> 00:17:37,916 The other change is for people who are in leadership, as you were saying, who 345 00:17:38,216 --> 00:17:43,246 are in a hierarchy, who enjoy the ego, the prestige may be getting to a point 346 00:17:43,246 --> 00:17:46,816 in their life and their age where they realize I can't keep doing this way. 347 00:17:46,936 --> 00:17:51,166 And helping them transition into a new form of leadership, which is 348 00:17:51,166 --> 00:17:55,366 really about letting others rise up in leadership and not having to be. 349 00:17:55,921 --> 00:17:57,541 The kingpin all the time. 350 00:17:58,381 --> 00:17:58,561 Yeah. 351 00:17:58,991 --> 00:18:01,091 I guess it has to do with intention, right? 352 00:18:01,091 --> 00:18:05,741 Like the, if the goal you know of leadership, again, in these, 353 00:18:05,841 --> 00:18:12,271 business books, is you become adored or feared or, acclaimed in some 354 00:18:12,271 --> 00:18:14,536 way and your company's stock price goes up. 355 00:18:15,586 --> 00:18:21,226 And I don't know many people who, after they leave the 356 00:18:21,226 --> 00:18:23,626 company, maintains the legacy 357 00:18:24,136 --> 00:18:25,186 That they brought in. 358 00:18:25,186 --> 00:18:25,546 The fa 359 00:18:25,576 --> 00:18:30,726 famously Alan Mulally at Ford turned the place around as a, many case studies 360 00:18:30,726 --> 00:18:32,466 of his leadership, which I think is. 361 00:18:32,741 --> 00:18:36,161 Brilliant, and you know exactly what you're talking about. 362 00:18:36,161 --> 00:18:37,611 And humble and 363 00:18:38,121 --> 00:18:39,921 evocative in, in many ways. 364 00:18:40,221 --> 00:18:42,831 And yet when he left, everything went back 365 00:18:43,421 --> 00:18:44,681 To the way it was. 366 00:18:44,771 --> 00:18:48,986 So question if the goal truly is we, not me. 367 00:18:50,211 --> 00:18:50,501 Yeah. 368 00:18:50,981 --> 00:18:54,671 then I think you'd make different decisions and again, empower the 369 00:18:54,671 --> 00:18:59,051 people around you to a much greater extent so that you become, when 370 00:18:59,051 --> 00:19:01,511 you stop playing your riff, the 371 00:19:01,511 --> 00:19:02,651 music continues. 372 00:19:03,761 --> 00:19:03,971 that's right. 373 00:19:03,971 --> 00:19:04,301 And I think. 374 00:19:04,936 --> 00:19:06,616 That's part of the work that I want to do. 375 00:19:06,616 --> 00:19:10,506 And I'm guessing some of yours too, Howie is finding ways to do that 376 00:19:10,566 --> 00:19:15,156 because obviously we're struggling with that at the moment, and I don't now. 377 00:19:15,156 --> 00:19:18,976 I think that's endemic in a whole lot of places that we haven't really 378 00:19:18,976 --> 00:19:20,686 passed on that level of leader. 379 00:19:21,206 --> 00:19:24,296 And I it's obviously, it seems to me my read of history, it's 380 00:19:24,296 --> 00:19:27,266 something that every generation needs to learn and be passed on to. 381 00:19:27,266 --> 00:19:27,896 It's not something. 382 00:19:28,241 --> 00:19:29,651 We're talking about wisdom, aren't we? 383 00:19:29,981 --> 00:19:30,851 Rather than knowledge. 384 00:19:30,851 --> 00:19:33,851 We're talking about humility rather than hubris. 385 00:19:33,951 --> 00:19:39,171 And that's my journey in that is that's learn the hard way. 386 00:19:39,471 --> 00:19:40,851 You can't learn that the easy way. 387 00:19:40,946 --> 00:19:43,256 You gotta have a few knocks along the way. 388 00:19:43,736 --> 00:19:46,856 And I think to some extent Steve Jobs is a good example. 389 00:19:46,856 --> 00:19:47,006 Now. 390 00:19:47,006 --> 00:19:50,426 He had to be kicked out of his company and come back again to, for the, 391 00:19:50,456 --> 00:19:52,046 for his real brilliance to shine. 392 00:19:52,046 --> 00:19:54,131 I. It's not to say it wasn't there in the first place. 393 00:19:54,181 --> 00:19:55,411 Yeah, there's a journey in that. 394 00:19:56,341 --> 00:19:58,981 And it, I think it needs people like you and I in the conversation. 395 00:19:59,221 --> 00:20:00,516 I think that's part of it. 396 00:20:01,081 --> 00:20:01,501 Yeah. 397 00:20:01,561 --> 00:20:03,841 And also, the question of who's in the group. 398 00:20:05,311 --> 00:20:12,921 So if American politics for all its flaws, it, it was understood as 399 00:20:12,921 --> 00:20:18,201 until maybe 10, 20 years ago that the leader was a leader of everybody. 400 00:20:18,201 --> 00:20:18,231 I. 401 00:20:18,846 --> 00:20:22,596 There was, this concept, the loyal opposition or the, that there is, yes, we 402 00:20:22,596 --> 00:20:26,916 disagree and we have these tensions, and yet we're all working for the same thing. 403 00:20:27,246 --> 00:20:29,286 I think we've lost that in American politics. 404 00:20:29,286 --> 00:20:30,846 I think around the world 405 00:20:31,296 --> 00:20:34,626 there's been this fracture, but it's come, I think it comes from the, from 406 00:20:35,526 --> 00:20:40,686 or originates in the business world where we have this term stakeholders. 407 00:20:41,061 --> 00:20:41,421 And we 408 00:20:41,421 --> 00:20:46,131 clearly delineate who are the stakeholders and who matter and who don't. 409 00:20:46,321 --> 00:20:49,501 You can have companies, and I've seen this so many times where companies have, 410 00:20:49,531 --> 00:20:54,761 this amazing internal culture, and people are valued and everyone's happy at work. 411 00:20:55,001 --> 00:21:01,071 Meanwhile they're extracting, chemicals from the earth and oppressing people 412 00:21:01,071 --> 00:21:05,171 in other countries, and they, to me, leadership that leaves people 413 00:21:05,171 --> 00:21:06,551 behind is not real leadership. 414 00:21:07,086 --> 00:21:08,021 Yeah, I agree. 415 00:21:08,021 --> 00:21:12,101 I was talking to a friend just a couple of days ago about in, in 416 00:21:12,101 --> 00:21:16,051 Australia we have the big four banks we call 'em and and they're extracting 417 00:21:16,681 --> 00:21:20,101 now me, million dollar profits, multimillion dollar profits because 418 00:21:20,101 --> 00:21:21,391 they gotta do it for the stakeholders. 419 00:21:21,391 --> 00:21:26,071 And I said, I was asking, so when did we get to the point where 420 00:21:26,071 --> 00:21:29,701 it was more important to give the stakeholders more money? 421 00:21:30,301 --> 00:21:33,271 Than reducing the interest rates on the people who are the poor 422 00:21:33,271 --> 00:21:34,471 people who need it for a home. 423 00:21:34,891 --> 00:21:38,811 Like there, there's something wrong in that equation. 424 00:21:38,811 --> 00:21:40,971 And I think just another way of talking about what you are 425 00:21:40,971 --> 00:21:44,961 talking about where we've built corporations in the stock market. 426 00:21:45,211 --> 00:21:50,021 Breeds are tilting to one way rather than actually organizations 427 00:21:50,021 --> 00:21:51,731 being there to serve people. 428 00:21:52,311 --> 00:21:56,031 It serves the owners as the stakeholders rather than the customers. 429 00:21:56,031 --> 00:21:59,961 And I don't know how we change that Howie, but boy it's needing some 430 00:21:59,961 --> 00:22:06,691 significant tweaking in some ways because people can manipulate or organizations 431 00:22:06,751 --> 00:22:10,996 at agreed to get what they want out of it, rather than it being a. An 432 00:22:10,996 --> 00:22:12,911 organization is meant to serve people 433 00:22:13,751 --> 00:22:14,371 at all levels, 434 00:22:14,821 --> 00:22:15,211 Yeah. 435 00:22:15,761 --> 00:22:18,971 My and my bias and my perspective is that. 436 00:22:19,676 --> 00:22:24,716 You know that our human vices, by and large are based on unmet needs 437 00:22:25,016 --> 00:22:26,156 that we're misinterpreting. 438 00:22:26,156 --> 00:22:29,066 So when I see greed, I think fear, right? 439 00:22:29,066 --> 00:22:29,546 Fear of 440 00:22:29,546 --> 00:22:30,146 lack. 441 00:22:30,536 --> 00:22:35,256 And I'm curious how you put fear into the. 442 00:22:36,081 --> 00:22:38,571 The idea of leadership so that there are leaders who can lead 443 00:22:38,571 --> 00:22:40,011 by making everybody afraid. 444 00:22:40,131 --> 00:22:43,171 He said, whether, chainsaw Al Dunlop or Jack Welch, 445 00:22:43,441 --> 00:22:47,096 or, like how is fear needed? 446 00:22:47,186 --> 00:22:49,796 Is to what extent is it useful 447 00:22:50,066 --> 00:22:51,836 and how can 448 00:22:52,376 --> 00:22:53,786 you know and what can replace it? 449 00:22:54,761 --> 00:22:55,181 Yeah. 450 00:22:56,081 --> 00:22:58,631 I think that's really a good question, Howie, and it's part of 451 00:22:58,631 --> 00:23:03,371 the reason why for me and my faith background comes in important. 452 00:23:03,371 --> 00:23:08,771 Because for me, I see in the leadership of Jesus, for example, who wants to 453 00:23:08,771 --> 00:23:14,031 put love at the center of it, not fear I. And in the end the authorities, 454 00:23:14,121 --> 00:23:18,981 but whether they'd be military, religious or philosophical all 455 00:23:19,131 --> 00:23:22,881 ganged up against him and executing because it's saying something 456 00:23:22,911 --> 00:23:25,161 around, we need to do this better. 457 00:23:25,731 --> 00:23:28,791 And I think he's the first person in history to suggest that we should 458 00:23:28,791 --> 00:23:32,751 love our neighbor, not just our should love our enemy, not just our neighbor. 459 00:23:33,031 --> 00:23:37,221 That's a pretty radical ethic into this space of how do we. 460 00:23:37,656 --> 00:23:38,496 We do that. 461 00:23:38,526 --> 00:23:39,446 And so I'm with you. 462 00:23:39,446 --> 00:23:43,846 I think we all have, through our upbringing our sociology and our 463 00:23:43,846 --> 00:23:47,416 psychology and our understanding of us as human beings would say, 464 00:23:47,416 --> 00:23:51,076 we all live with some levels of deficit through our upbringing 465 00:23:51,466 --> 00:23:53,116 that we're always trying to meet. 466 00:23:53,386 --> 00:23:55,936 And that's why I said part of the journey for us as leaders 467 00:23:56,896 --> 00:23:58,066 is to deal with our internet. 468 00:23:58,426 --> 00:24:00,496 Inner motives that we inner drivers. 469 00:24:00,976 --> 00:24:03,766 If we're gonna be the type of leaders that the world really needs, 470 00:24:03,796 --> 00:24:06,826 which we're talking about, we've gotta deal with that stuff first. 471 00:24:07,126 --> 00:24:10,606 Otherwise it comes out sideways and it's there. 472 00:24:11,716 --> 00:24:15,836 Now, one person I was listening to talking about Trump we're saying, 473 00:24:15,886 --> 00:24:19,006 everyone knows that a narcissist will wanna hold onto power. 474 00:24:19,216 --> 00:24:23,836 So why were you surprised when he wanted to hold onto power when he got defeated? 475 00:24:23,836 --> 00:24:24,256 That's. 476 00:24:24,586 --> 00:24:25,816 Par for the course. 477 00:24:25,916 --> 00:24:27,326 And then we've given him another go. 478 00:24:27,406 --> 00:24:28,636 America's giving him another go. 479 00:24:28,636 --> 00:24:31,726 You go, oh, dear it's gonna come out sideways. 480 00:24:31,726 --> 00:24:35,716 So I think it calls for all of us to deal with that fear. 481 00:24:36,406 --> 00:24:38,956 I've had to deal with my stuff, whether it's fear, whether it's 482 00:24:38,956 --> 00:24:42,346 rejection, whether it's some sort of hurt, some sort of wound. 483 00:24:42,676 --> 00:24:46,126 We're all carrying something and yeah, we've got a face up to it. 484 00:24:46,276 --> 00:24:48,186 The shadow side, as Y would say, it's there. 485 00:24:48,556 --> 00:24:50,626 Yeah, you, I think we can see how the, the. 486 00:24:51,446 --> 00:24:55,346 The cumulative shadow of all of our shadows produces 487 00:24:55,806 --> 00:25:01,296 These systems in which fear is not only amplified, but the driving factor. 488 00:25:01,296 --> 00:25:05,536 So if I put myself in the head of an executive of one of the big banks, 489 00:25:06,451 --> 00:25:06,691 Yep. 490 00:25:06,706 --> 00:25:07,156 right? 491 00:25:07,756 --> 00:25:12,556 Their alternative is to be one of the people who can't pay their mortgage, 492 00:25:13,261 --> 00:25:13,561 Yeah. 493 00:25:13,996 --> 00:25:14,236 right? 494 00:25:14,236 --> 00:25:17,236 So it's, it seems if I'm not here, then I'm down there. 495 00:25:18,181 --> 00:25:21,861 opposed to let's my life would be better if I weren't so rich, but 496 00:25:21,861 --> 00:25:25,791 if I were in a society in which everyone had what they needed. 497 00:25:26,781 --> 00:25:27,231 Yeah. 498 00:25:27,591 --> 00:25:29,661 And I don't know how we get there. 499 00:25:30,141 --> 00:25:33,111 You know how I was, I said I was talking to one of our parliamentarians 500 00:25:33,111 --> 00:25:36,271 today talking about this group. 501 00:25:36,706 --> 00:25:41,326 Of elites, I can say some of them in business, but some of them in 502 00:25:41,326 --> 00:25:46,546 the public service on getting a good income, happy to hold onto their solo, 503 00:25:46,636 --> 00:25:48,916 their silo, and not bring any change. 504 00:25:49,096 --> 00:25:51,286 And they're in cahoots with each other to some extent. 505 00:25:51,636 --> 00:25:54,276 And how do we break that nexus in our community? 506 00:25:54,306 --> 00:25:56,316 And she didn't have any solutions. 507 00:25:56,856 --> 00:26:00,816 She was saying, I don't know, but it's gotta be because it's hurting 508 00:26:00,816 --> 00:26:03,846 all the poor people like Tasmania. 509 00:26:03,891 --> 00:26:03,951 Yeah. 510 00:26:04,521 --> 00:26:09,531 In terms of per capita, we've got more children in state care than any other 511 00:26:09,531 --> 00:26:15,201 state in Australia, and we, every night there are thousands of kids that they're 512 00:26:15,201 --> 00:26:19,401 putting in motel rooms because they've got nowhere to house them or to protect them. 513 00:26:21,111 --> 00:26:24,951 How do we get at those big questions as a society? 514 00:26:25,241 --> 00:26:29,321 And then as you're saying, we've got people who are just perpetuating high 515 00:26:29,321 --> 00:26:33,116 incomes because they're scared of what would happen if they actually thought. 516 00:26:33,761 --> 00:26:34,961 Let's do the right thing here. 517 00:26:36,461 --> 00:26:36,821 Oh, 518 00:26:36,956 --> 00:26:37,376 Yeah. 519 00:26:37,571 --> 00:26:37,901 sorry. 520 00:26:38,081 --> 00:26:39,881 I'm getting overwhelmed by it. 521 00:26:40,251 --> 00:26:42,066 There, there's a joke that I heard. 522 00:26:42,166 --> 00:26:44,851 There's a whole genre of Jewish jokes about this. 523 00:26:45,586 --> 00:26:49,726 Imaginary town in eastern Europe, sort of nine, 18th century called 524 00:26:49,726 --> 00:26:51,466 Helm, which is the town of fools. 525 00:26:51,466 --> 00:26:54,826 And one day the rabbi wakes up in helm and he says he's been struck 526 00:26:54,826 --> 00:26:57,586 by this idea how to solve poverty. 527 00:26:57,586 --> 00:26:59,986 He says, the rich should give half of their wealth to the poor, 528 00:27:00,436 --> 00:27:01,876 and he devotes his life 529 00:27:02,236 --> 00:27:04,126 to promoting this idea. 530 00:27:04,126 --> 00:27:07,486 And he goes away, travels around the world, comes back 20 years 531 00:27:07,486 --> 00:27:09,586 later, and a rabbi, how's it going? 532 00:27:09,586 --> 00:27:10,636 He says, I'm halfway there. 533 00:27:10,636 --> 00:27:11,986 The poor have agreed to accept. 534 00:27:14,686 --> 00:27:14,976 Yeah 535 00:27:15,931 --> 00:27:16,531 that's right. 536 00:27:17,071 --> 00:27:17,371 Yeah. 537 00:27:17,961 --> 00:27:20,691 So it's, now we're talking about big questions here, aren't we? 538 00:27:20,751 --> 00:27:25,201 About lead leadership and part of it, I think how we, now, I 539 00:27:25,201 --> 00:27:29,721 grew up in a period of time where I saw the world incontinence, 540 00:27:30,181 --> 00:27:33,121 there's North American Continent Australia and all the rest of it. 541 00:27:33,541 --> 00:27:37,291 But then in the mid seventies we ended up ha having a photograph 542 00:27:37,351 --> 00:27:40,111 of the world from outer space. 543 00:27:40,471 --> 00:27:44,281 And so there is a sense in which we think of the world as a globe 544 00:27:44,281 --> 00:27:46,901 now of one people and I think. 545 00:27:47,651 --> 00:27:51,211 We ha our economic and our political systems haven't worked out. 546 00:27:51,391 --> 00:27:55,801 How do we actually operate as a globe of this lonely, bluegreen 547 00:27:55,801 --> 00:27:59,551 planet in the middle of this vast universe with this thing called life? 548 00:27:59,671 --> 00:28:01,531 And how are we gonna make it work? 549 00:28:02,101 --> 00:28:05,551 And all our structures were built when we still had countries and 550 00:28:05,551 --> 00:28:09,211 continents, but now we're seeing ourselves as one and we're still 551 00:28:09,211 --> 00:28:10,471 trying to work out how to do it. 552 00:28:10,651 --> 00:28:14,976 I think how do we structure this so it works for everyone And 553 00:28:15,026 --> 00:28:16,226 we're a long way from it, I think. 554 00:28:16,406 --> 00:28:18,686 But that's, I think that's why we're having these questions 'cause 555 00:28:18,686 --> 00:28:19,711 that's how we're seeing the world. 556 00:28:20,831 --> 00:28:21,161 Yeah. 557 00:28:21,161 --> 00:28:24,861 And I think we can, we can despair when we look at the big picture, and 558 00:28:24,861 --> 00:28:30,431 I'm imagining that you, you see a lot of small, local victories even, when 559 00:28:30,431 --> 00:28:34,121 you describe your family okay, I'm the one who gets everyone in the car. 560 00:28:34,536 --> 00:28:35,796 That's my contribution. 561 00:28:35,796 --> 00:28:36,726 I'm good at that 562 00:28:36,986 --> 00:28:42,006 That can, that I mean I was, re reading a book on parenting, t 563 00:28:42,036 --> 00:28:43,476 25 years too late. 564 00:28:43,776 --> 00:28:48,096 But, it talks about have being responsible to your children and 565 00:28:48,096 --> 00:28:51,696 not for your children, which, it struck me very powerfully. 566 00:28:52,036 --> 00:28:55,806 There's I like, I think, if leadership gets. 567 00:28:56,181 --> 00:29:01,431 Okay, so I'll think you, this book I read 35 years ago by a student 568 00:29:01,431 --> 00:29:03,651 of Freud's Wilhelm Reich, who he 569 00:29:03,651 --> 00:29:06,036 wrote he wrote the Mass Psychology of Fascism. 570 00:29:06,496 --> 00:29:06,856 And his, 571 00:29:06,946 --> 00:29:10,396 and he was an Austrian writing during the rise of Hitler. 572 00:29:10,666 --> 00:29:14,666 And he basically, after he escaped, came to America, he said that the rise 573 00:29:14,666 --> 00:29:19,646 of Hitler was inevitable because the same dynamic of patriarchal domination, 574 00:29:19,706 --> 00:29:22,106 dominance was in every single family, 575 00:29:22,856 --> 00:29:23,186 right? 576 00:29:23,186 --> 00:29:26,186 Repression of female sexuality, like everything. 577 00:29:26,456 --> 00:29:26,546 Yep. 578 00:29:27,511 --> 00:29:32,661 So can we begin to make change on the individual level, the family 579 00:29:32,661 --> 00:29:34,461 level, the local community level? 580 00:29:35,341 --> 00:29:38,091 Yeah I think you've hit it on the head. 581 00:29:38,091 --> 00:29:38,451 Is it? 582 00:29:38,451 --> 00:29:41,181 It's gotta come from the grassroots up, from rather from 583 00:29:41,181 --> 00:29:42,981 the head down, coming down. 584 00:29:42,981 --> 00:29:45,261 Although maybe we need to start at both ends, 585 00:29:45,861 --> 00:29:47,421 but yeah I think. 586 00:29:48,396 --> 00:29:53,196 Now from my personal view, we've tried to deconstruct the family. 587 00:29:53,196 --> 00:29:57,246 We've tried to deconstruct religion, we've tried to deconstruct a whole lot of stuff. 588 00:29:57,336 --> 00:30:01,776 Now we're enamored and frustrated with our organizations and our elites, but 589 00:30:01,776 --> 00:30:07,596 somehow I. It's gotta happen with every individual person who takes responsibility 590 00:30:07,596 --> 00:30:10,626 for their part of leadership in making the world a little bit better. 591 00:30:10,926 --> 00:30:13,626 And if everyone does a little bit, then we'll do a lot. 592 00:30:14,196 --> 00:30:18,566 And I think that's where I've got hope of people doing a little bit here, 593 00:30:18,596 --> 00:30:20,966 a little bit there, and rebuild it. 594 00:30:21,326 --> 00:30:25,496 So it'll be interesting to see what this moment brings. 595 00:30:25,496 --> 00:30:25,886 Won't it? 596 00:30:25,886 --> 00:30:26,451 It is this. 597 00:30:27,326 --> 00:30:30,956 Cathartic moment in world history that we're living in right at the moment. 598 00:30:31,476 --> 00:30:36,156 Where, America that's held, helped hold the world together for 80 599 00:30:36,156 --> 00:30:38,526 years since the second World War. 600 00:30:39,196 --> 00:30:41,746 At the moment, Trump's saying we don't wanna do it anymore. 601 00:30:42,296 --> 00:30:43,106 What does that mean? 602 00:30:43,566 --> 00:30:44,666 But I have hope 603 00:30:45,596 --> 00:30:48,686 each individual community doing something, that's where my 604 00:30:48,686 --> 00:30:50,306 parliamentarian friend got to today. 605 00:30:50,306 --> 00:30:53,096 She said it can only happen one community at a time. 606 00:30:54,386 --> 00:30:57,336 What's what is the relative responsibility, do you think 607 00:30:57,336 --> 00:30:59,256 of the haves and the have nots? 608 00:30:59,986 --> 00:31:02,336 Is the solu, the problems that affect. 609 00:31:03,461 --> 00:31:06,521 Some people more than others, from marginalized historically 610 00:31:06,521 --> 00:31:07,811 disadvantaged communities, 611 00:31:08,291 --> 00:31:12,551 The onus is often on them to solve it as opposed to the people who are 612 00:31:12,551 --> 00:31:13,511 benefiting from it. 613 00:31:13,766 --> 00:31:18,156 How do you see distribution of power in imbalanced power dynamics? 614 00:31:19,626 --> 00:31:23,516 I go by the biblical facts and those, to those who have 615 00:31:23,516 --> 00:31:25,016 been given much is required. 616 00:31:25,256 --> 00:31:29,921 I think, the more you have, the more responsibility you have to do something 617 00:31:29,921 --> 00:31:33,756 with it, in some ways that's Bill Gates, bill and Melinda Gates have 618 00:31:33,756 --> 00:31:37,886 tried to do something with their money in philanthropic sort of activity. 619 00:31:38,216 --> 00:31:41,516 And to be honest, America's better at that than Australia is. 620 00:31:41,516 --> 00:31:46,016 Australia's doesn't have a philanthropic sort of attitude like America does. 621 00:31:46,526 --> 00:31:52,576 So I really do think those for whom have a lot, they have a responsibility to do. 622 00:31:52,816 --> 00:31:54,945 To do something for the good of, for good of all. 623 00:31:55,396 --> 00:31:57,615 That's part of the reason I think I'm talking with you. 624 00:31:57,665 --> 00:31:59,045 I've had a good life. 625 00:31:59,375 --> 00:32:03,636 I've, I want to keep contributing back into it and try and help some, find 626 00:32:03,636 --> 00:32:07,355 some solutions to some of these big questions as we go through this massive 627 00:32:07,355 --> 00:32:11,076 change that we are going through Mega crisis, as some people have called it, 628 00:32:11,255 --> 00:32:15,426 it's happening at so many different levels at the same time and calling 629 00:32:15,426 --> 00:32:17,436 people to a better level of leadership. 630 00:32:17,436 --> 00:32:18,516 So I think. 631 00:32:19,226 --> 00:32:23,085 What was someone said, now we keep complaining about the elites, 632 00:32:23,926 --> 00:32:27,406 and he said, but we've always had elites go back to Roman times. 633 00:32:27,406 --> 00:32:28,516 There's always been elites. 634 00:32:28,636 --> 00:32:31,096 So the question is not, let's not get rid of the elites. 635 00:32:31,096 --> 00:32:33,286 Let's just ask the elites to do it a lot better. 636 00:32:33,475 --> 00:32:35,605 I thought that was a really helpful way of looking at it. 637 00:32:36,145 --> 00:32:37,855 Just call them to do it better. 638 00:32:38,305 --> 00:32:40,435 It's not about them, it's about their families. 639 00:32:40,435 --> 00:32:41,665 It's about the communities. 640 00:32:41,665 --> 00:32:42,625 It's not about them. 641 00:32:44,900 --> 00:32:46,150 So we've gotta keep the mantra. 642 00:32:46,885 --> 00:32:47,275 Yeah. 643 00:32:47,365 --> 00:32:50,175 Although, when I hear that, I also think about, your countryman 644 00:32:50,205 --> 00:32:54,705 Tyson Yco Porta, a a professor of Aboriginal studies and, talks about 645 00:32:54,705 --> 00:32:57,195 ab, indigenous systems thinking, 646 00:32:57,470 --> 00:32:57,690 Yep, 647 00:32:58,125 --> 00:32:58,425 yep. 648 00:32:58,975 --> 00:33:00,985 That there, that for most of human history, there 649 00:33:00,985 --> 00:33:02,845 really weren't elites, right? 650 00:33:02,845 --> 00:33:03,175 Like you, 651 00:33:03,175 --> 00:33:05,245 like we think, yeah, it goes back thousands of years to 652 00:33:05,245 --> 00:33:06,865 ancient Rome or Mesopotamia or 653 00:33:06,865 --> 00:33:07,765 Samaria or whatever. 654 00:33:08,215 --> 00:33:12,745 But for the vast majority of human existence, there were 655 00:33:12,955 --> 00:33:15,355 other forms of coming together. 656 00:33:15,745 --> 00:33:19,185 And even, and it wasn't just, small hunter gatherer tribes but. 657 00:33:20,020 --> 00:33:20,440 Huge. 658 00:33:20,470 --> 00:33:24,070 It, it just, it feels like a CA call, an invitation. 659 00:33:24,070 --> 00:33:28,600 This mega crisis, as you put it, is an invitation for us to imagine so much 660 00:33:28,600 --> 00:33:30,145 more broadly than we've been willing to. 661 00:33:31,375 --> 00:33:32,990 Yeah I think that's true. 662 00:33:33,185 --> 00:33:35,525 I think that's, I agree with that, Howard. 663 00:33:35,525 --> 00:33:40,745 I think part of us, isn't it, that we think in binary ways. 664 00:33:40,745 --> 00:33:43,245 What I mean by that is, I don't think. 665 00:33:43,760 --> 00:33:46,160 There's many Aboriginal people in Australia. 666 00:33:46,160 --> 00:33:48,980 I don't think there's any who are saying they'd like to go back to the way it was 667 00:33:48,980 --> 00:33:50,780 before white fellas came to Australia. 668 00:33:51,180 --> 00:33:54,385 They'd say they'd rather live with electricity and clean water all 669 00:33:54,385 --> 00:33:55,615 the time and all the rest of it. 670 00:33:55,975 --> 00:33:59,795 So the organizational framework for humanity has 671 00:33:59,795 --> 00:34:01,295 given us a lot of good things. 672 00:34:01,765 --> 00:34:02,995 It's just not good for everything. 673 00:34:03,620 --> 00:34:04,395 And we've done that. 674 00:34:04,395 --> 00:34:08,515 Now the leadership of the organization takes a certain form of leadership, 675 00:34:08,515 --> 00:34:12,215 but to assume that's the only form of leadership that we need is a 676 00:34:12,215 --> 00:34:15,065 problem because our communities need a different form of leadership. 677 00:34:15,695 --> 00:34:20,415 So part of it, I think, is getting, demystifying the organization. 678 00:34:20,415 --> 00:34:24,615 It's done a lot of good things for us as a humanity, but it can't do everything. 679 00:34:24,960 --> 00:34:29,730 And we just need to use organizational frameworks as a tool for what it's 680 00:34:29,730 --> 00:34:31,760 good at, but not for everything else. 681 00:34:32,210 --> 00:34:35,290 And and so yeah, so therefore bringing in some of the wisdom 682 00:34:35,710 --> 00:34:39,870 from our indigenous cultures and civilizations is really important 683 00:34:39,870 --> 00:34:42,150 for us and Australia has to do it. 684 00:34:42,150 --> 00:34:44,610 We have to somehow manage that in Australia. 685 00:34:44,850 --> 00:34:45,690 We're not doing a good job. 686 00:34:45,840 --> 00:34:46,200 Yeah. 687 00:34:46,470 --> 00:34:50,430 And I'm also referring back to you're quoting Jesus and saying, that there's 688 00:34:50,770 --> 00:34:54,730 I don't think anybody started a religion thinking, okay, we're gonna 689 00:34:54,730 --> 00:34:58,940 have a priestly cast and we're gonna have bureaucrats and we're gonna have, 690 00:34:59,260 --> 00:35:01,210 tithes and we're gonna build like. 691 00:35:01,945 --> 00:35:07,515 The religions were all initiated by people having revelatory experiences of 692 00:35:07,515 --> 00:35:08,745 unity and divinity. 693 00:35:09,025 --> 00:35:13,105 And then, it's like no matter how amazing your intuition is and what 694 00:35:13,105 --> 00:35:16,945 you wanna teach people and the purity of it, if it catches on, it's gonna 695 00:35:16,945 --> 00:35:19,095 end up being turned into a business. 696 00:35:19,680 --> 00:35:20,070 Yeah. 697 00:35:20,670 --> 00:35:22,410 We've got that propensity haven't we? 698 00:35:22,410 --> 00:35:23,250 As human beings? 699 00:35:23,460 --> 00:35:23,610 We do. 700 00:35:24,430 --> 00:35:27,250 And it's even sitting there in the Bible now, there's that story. 701 00:35:27,910 --> 00:35:30,880 About Jesus being on the Mount of Transfiguration. 702 00:35:30,880 --> 00:35:31,240 It is. 703 00:35:31,240 --> 00:35:34,960 And he has this encounter with the luminous God, whatever 704 00:35:35,010 --> 00:35:35,940 your words you wanna do. 705 00:35:36,210 --> 00:35:39,750 And Peter's response is, let's build some tents and contain it. 706 00:35:40,110 --> 00:35:41,120 And you go no. 707 00:35:41,925 --> 00:35:44,505 But it's epitomizes what exactly what you're saying. 708 00:35:44,805 --> 00:35:48,615 Something wonderful happens and then we want to build systems and buildings and 709 00:35:48,615 --> 00:35:50,595 whatever around it to try and contain it. 710 00:35:50,985 --> 00:35:53,265 And that's exactly the wrong thing to do with it. 711 00:35:53,745 --> 00:35:54,735 And Yeah. 712 00:35:55,215 --> 00:35:55,725 Yeah. 713 00:35:55,775 --> 00:36:01,185 And that's what's why I think there's a good pushback against re institutional 714 00:36:01,455 --> 00:36:06,735 reli religion across whatever, whether it's hint Christian, whatever it 715 00:36:06,735 --> 00:36:11,325 might be, when we actually put the structures around it and then monetize 716 00:36:11,325 --> 00:36:14,325 it and ego gets in, the greed gets in. 717 00:36:14,325 --> 00:36:14,865 It doesn't matter. 718 00:36:15,045 --> 00:36:18,165 It's the organization, whether it's religion, whether it's a community, or 719 00:36:18,165 --> 00:36:20,415 the golf club or the table tennis club. 720 00:36:20,805 --> 00:36:21,525 Yeah, we'll do it. 721 00:36:22,110 --> 00:36:25,040 We'll do the same thing and religion is not exempt from it at all. 722 00:36:26,000 --> 00:36:27,140 So I'm totally with. 723 00:36:27,800 --> 00:36:32,255 Yeah, maybe let's, can we close with just you giving some sort of tips, I 724 00:36:32,255 --> 00:36:35,035 don't wanna say marching orders 'cause that sounds like the wrong kind of 725 00:36:35,035 --> 00:36:36,925 leadership metaphor, but for folks 726 00:36:36,925 --> 00:36:41,455 who are listening who are simply, involved in their communities, maybe on the school 727 00:36:41,455 --> 00:36:48,035 board or in a volunteer organization or in organizations, in companies where. 728 00:36:48,815 --> 00:36:52,595 They see potential to move in better directions than they're 729 00:36:52,595 --> 00:36:53,345 currently going. 730 00:36:53,735 --> 00:36:54,245 What are some 731 00:36:54,245 --> 00:36:58,705 sort of, practices or ways of thinking or mindsets or tips that you might 732 00:36:58,705 --> 00:37:05,095 have for folks to begin to flex better leadership and more effective leadership? 733 00:37:05,940 --> 00:37:06,210 Yeah. 734 00:37:06,790 --> 00:37:10,805 I think for me the first place I start is to find someone else 735 00:37:10,805 --> 00:37:11,765 who I can talk to about it. 736 00:37:12,705 --> 00:37:17,595 Build a nice gentle coalition with people who, you're not forcing any ideas, 737 00:37:17,595 --> 00:37:21,195 but you have, you're able to toss the ideas around with a group of people, 738 00:37:21,405 --> 00:37:26,415 like-minded people who can sharpen your ideas, help you to see where you are. 739 00:37:26,805 --> 00:37:29,895 You are got a blind spot and where you're good for each other. 740 00:37:29,925 --> 00:37:35,115 And I think, I just think collaboration is generative and 741 00:37:35,115 --> 00:37:36,795 I generate something positive. 742 00:37:37,185 --> 00:37:39,045 So my first thing is. 743 00:37:39,375 --> 00:37:40,695 Try, don't do it alone. 744 00:37:41,415 --> 00:37:43,185 I don't think we're ever meant to do it alone. 745 00:37:43,785 --> 00:37:45,135 That's why it's good to be talking to you. 746 00:37:45,135 --> 00:37:47,715 We wanna encourage each other in the little bits that we're doing. 747 00:37:47,925 --> 00:37:49,995 So my first thing would be find someone else. 748 00:37:50,295 --> 00:37:54,045 See if you can find someone else who not totally agrees with you, 749 00:37:54,045 --> 00:37:55,815 but is traveling the same direction. 750 00:37:55,815 --> 00:37:58,245 So you can be good for each other, would be the first thing. 751 00:37:59,025 --> 00:38:05,815 And then the second thing is to me would be, think both of str tactically 752 00:38:05,815 --> 00:38:09,085 what might you might be able to do in the short term but really 753 00:38:09,085 --> 00:38:11,485 think str tactically long term. 754 00:38:11,485 --> 00:38:12,715 Strategically long term. 755 00:38:12,985 --> 00:38:16,165 Don't believe you've gotta do it all tomorrow and it's all gotta happen. 756 00:38:16,535 --> 00:38:20,165 That, that old adage you overestimate what you can do in the short 757 00:38:20,165 --> 00:38:22,655 term, but you underestimate what you can do in the long term. 758 00:38:22,865 --> 00:38:25,565 What we're talking about here in changing some of these 759 00:38:25,565 --> 00:38:28,415 endemic structures do take time. 760 00:38:28,970 --> 00:38:33,500 And as you rightly pointed out, they can easily swing back the other way. 761 00:38:33,500 --> 00:38:38,690 So I think doing it slowly and gently has got more chance for it staying long term. 762 00:38:39,170 --> 00:38:43,580 So I think that would be my second thing is just give yourself a big picture of it. 763 00:38:43,730 --> 00:38:46,730 Get friends and think long term strategically. 764 00:38:47,240 --> 00:38:52,130 And third one, every person's got some good in them about what they want to do. 765 00:38:52,715 --> 00:38:55,745 And yeah, we might have our fears, we might have a whole lot of other 766 00:38:55,745 --> 00:39:00,785 stuff there, but I haven't come across a person yet who has, when 767 00:39:00,785 --> 00:39:03,725 I've talked to them, doesn't want to do something good for the world, 768 00:39:04,505 --> 00:39:07,995 and we just need to find that in each other and encourage that in each other. 769 00:39:08,760 --> 00:39:11,340 That would be my, off the top of my head, three things. 770 00:39:13,290 --> 00:39:13,920 Beautiful. 771 00:39:13,950 --> 00:39:14,400 Beautiful. 772 00:39:14,400 --> 00:39:16,740 I think that's a great place to, to put a pin in. 773 00:39:16,890 --> 00:39:19,830 Can you talk a little bit about your work, maybe a little, 774 00:39:19,880 --> 00:39:21,800 a brief advertisement for who 775 00:39:21,930 --> 00:39:25,310 Who should reach out to you what problem someone might be struggling 776 00:39:25,310 --> 00:39:26,480 with, where you could help. 777 00:39:27,105 --> 00:39:27,395 yeah. 778 00:39:27,750 --> 00:39:33,070 What I love working with is leaders who may be a little bit stuck who 779 00:39:33,070 --> 00:39:37,840 want to move to the next level, and what I find is that most of the time. 780 00:39:38,725 --> 00:39:40,765 The answer to that is already in a person. 781 00:39:40,975 --> 00:39:43,975 They just need a good thought partner or someone to walk 782 00:39:43,975 --> 00:39:45,865 alongside them to ask the questions. 783 00:39:46,235 --> 00:39:50,255 I don't have a big program, but I do love talking with people where 784 00:39:50,255 --> 00:39:53,615 the wisdom emerges in the moment as you walk alongside each other. 785 00:39:54,305 --> 00:39:54,725 And 786 00:39:54,775 --> 00:39:55,525 And when you say they're 787 00:39:55,525 --> 00:39:59,285 stuck, are you speaking specifically like they're at some at, two 788 00:39:59,285 --> 00:40:00,785 IC and they wanna be one I 789 00:40:02,055 --> 00:40:03,220 No, no more that. 790 00:40:03,300 --> 00:40:07,670 It could be that could be that, but it could be that, I just get to this 791 00:40:07,670 --> 00:40:13,010 point or I get overwhelmed through fear, or I know I should be doing more. 792 00:40:13,010 --> 00:40:14,300 I dunno what to do. 793 00:40:14,525 --> 00:40:17,165 Or they're already a leader and it says, I'm in a crisis. 794 00:40:17,165 --> 00:40:19,475 I've gotta lead my this group through a crisis. 795 00:40:19,685 --> 00:40:21,605 How do I lead them through a crisis? 796 00:40:21,935 --> 00:40:25,475 And like you were saying that sometimes it does call for the 797 00:40:25,475 --> 00:40:28,535 Commander General to go, we are going on this way guys, let's do it. 798 00:40:29,345 --> 00:40:33,245 But another time it may be we need to sit all the key people around a 799 00:40:33,245 --> 00:40:35,045 table and thrash this out together. 800 00:40:35,465 --> 00:40:39,425 How do I have the wisdom to know which one do I lead with at this moment? 801 00:40:39,425 --> 00:40:41,525 So it's that situational. 802 00:40:41,840 --> 00:40:45,080 Moment of leadership of going, which way do I move now? 803 00:40:45,740 --> 00:40:50,660 What do I bring to this moment to enable us to progress well, to the next point. 804 00:40:51,140 --> 00:40:53,420 So it's in those spaces. 805 00:40:53,480 --> 00:40:54,470 gotcha, gotcha. 806 00:40:54,620 --> 00:40:55,610 And how do people find you? 807 00:40:57,560 --> 00:41:02,690 Just on my website, Steven Al Baxter, not Steven Baxter, but steven al baxter.com 808 00:41:02,705 --> 00:41:03,095 Okay. 809 00:41:03,095 --> 00:41:03,245 And 810 00:41:03,245 --> 00:41:04,925 the Stevens with a pH. 811 00:41:05,420 --> 00:41:09,035 with a pa that's right, that's my mom's fault. 812 00:41:09,495 --> 00:41:11,235 She like didn't want me to be called Steve. 813 00:41:11,840 --> 00:41:12,770 Didn't make any difference. 814 00:41:12,830 --> 00:41:16,700 People still call me Steve, but Steven Al Baxter was a pH. 815 00:41:16,700 --> 00:41:17,120 That's right. 816 00:41:17,810 --> 00:41:18,300 very good. 817 00:41:18,480 --> 00:41:23,725 And any, anything we didn't talk about that you think would be worthwhile? 818 00:41:23,830 --> 00:41:27,880 think no, we've done well, Howard, there's some great questions there, mate. 819 00:41:28,450 --> 00:41:32,110 And all the best for what you are doing too over there in Barcelona. 820 00:41:32,440 --> 00:41:34,420 Maybe next time I've got a daughter who lives in Spain. 821 00:41:34,420 --> 00:41:35,020 Did you know that? 822 00:41:35,650 --> 00:41:36,340 In Madrid. 823 00:41:36,820 --> 00:41:39,520 So next time maybe I might drop down to Barcelona and say good day. 824 00:41:39,670 --> 00:41:40,720 Oh, that'd be awesome. 825 00:41:40,720 --> 00:41:40,870 We could 826 00:41:40,920 --> 00:41:43,510 Yeah, we could take turns fixing each other's countries. 827 00:41:45,370 --> 00:41:45,880 why not? 828 00:41:46,930 --> 00:41:47,230 Cool. 829 00:41:47,230 --> 00:41:50,290 Steven L. Baxter, thank you so much for the work you're doing. 830 00:41:50,725 --> 00:41:54,685 For for sharing a perspective from another corner of the globe 831 00:41:55,420 --> 00:41:55,870 Yeah, 832 00:41:56,065 --> 00:41:57,295 for taking the time today. 833 00:41:58,300 --> 00:41:58,870 my pleasure.