Today on episode number 949 of The School of

Podcasting, I've been dying to do this interview. The one and

only Tom Webster talking about his book, The

Audience is Listening, a little guide to building a

big podcast. And I also ask him a little bit about

brand safety. Let's start the show. The School of

Podcasting with Dave Jackson.

Podcasting Sense 2,005. I am your

award winning hall of fame podcast coach, Dave Jackson, thanking

you so much for tuning in. If you're new to the show,

this is where we help you plan, launch, and grow your

podcast. Wanna monetize it? Yeah. We can do that too.

Everything is out at our website, school of podcasting.com.

Use the coupon code listener when you sign up for either a

monthly or yearly subscription. And, of course, that comes with

a 30 day money back guarantee.

There is a new service online that I'll be

telling you about a little later. A lot of people think, I don't

know, it's the bee's knees. And I'm here to say, you gotta

be careful with it. But right now, here's my talk with Tom

Webster. I've said the audience is

listening about, I don't know, 10, 12 times on my show. It really is

required reading. If you're a member of the school of podcasting, it's it's one of

those books that's like, go ahead and read it. If you don't like it, I

will buy it back because I will give it to somebody else. It's really that

good of a book. And so, I'm very happy to have the one and

only from Sounds Profitable and many other things in podcasting. The one

and only Tom Webster. Tom, thanks for coming on the show. Dave, you're you're so

kind, and you've been so kind to mention the book as as much as you

have, really. That's, maybe maybe more than you should excessively. So

thank you for that. Writing a book is a lot of

work. I know I've got my book. I'm working on the audio version.

So what inspired Tom to write this book? Because

it's really, really good book. I'm so grateful for that,

David. You know, I wrote this book because I have all this weird experience,

and I didn't want it to you know, when I eventually retire to podcast

island or on the on whatever, you

know, floating device that podcasting has enabled me to buy, I didn't want

this knowledge to kind of disappear. And and it really it comes from a

a, you know, background in in media research, a background in radio, a background

in entertainment, and all these other things. And, you know, I've had

the privilege in a 30 year career of being able to

work, you know, sort of behind the scenes on audience development for some pretty

pretty big shows, both in podcasting but also in radio. I've done

research on The Howard Stern Show. I've done research for, you know, Elvis Duran, who's

a very big syndicated morning show host across America, and

and what struck me was how much of the,

you know, literature material, helpful advice that's out there for

podcasting about the mechanics of doing a

podcast, right, the equipment and

formats and things like that, but not enough about how to understand

an audience. And I wanted to do the best I could to kind of

correct that balance because I can guarantee you, you know, when Elvis

Duran steps into the studio or or Ira Glass steps into his

closet to record with a blanket over his head or whatever, He's not

thinking about the equipment, you know, or what

platform he's going to they're gonna record on. That's not what they're thinking about. They're

thinking about their audience, and I wanted to put the focus squarely on that. So

for the brand new podcaster, what would be your advice? For

the brand new person, I would get very, very clear on

who you're for. Right? And it's not I want to talk about

this. You don't get the benefit of that unless you're already John

Grisham, and you're writing your 68th book. I wanna write a book

about Christmas. Okay. We're gonna give you a pass because of the

Pelican Brief or whatever. You don't you don't get that pass necessarily. So before

you get to, I have an idea and I want to write about this, the

thing you want to do is not necessarily the thing people want to hear. And

that's not to discourage you from making your art. But I do think you

need to be very clear on, alright, if I'm going to do this, who is

it for? And the answer is not men 25 to

54 because men 25 to 54 have very little in

common with each other. You have to get a lot more specific than that. Can

you imagine the exact human name, rank,

serial number, maybe somebody in your life that you're making this show for,

and then make that show. Right? Make a show for that

human, that individual single human. Make 6 or 7 of

them, put them under your bed, and think about it for a while. And I

think, you you know, this culture with the this sort of cult of

entrepreneurialism and and things like that and the, you know, all the things that we

tell ourselves about you know, the Jeff Bezos's of the world and

the Elon Musks and the Richard Branson's and the Steve Jobs's and all

that. Well, they're outlier humans. They have been

able to win by ignoring popular opinion and just moving forward.

Most of people are not gonna have that, and I think it's

not enough to to just ship it, to just

iterate in public because you are producing an entertainment that people will

give exactly one shot. I always recommend do a bunch of

shows, stick them under your bed, go back to them later. Could they

have been better? If the answer is yes, then make them better.

From the get go, I just wouldn't release something that you're not proud

of. Could you can release something that you know could be better as your skills

get better. But if you could have fixed it yourself, maybe

do that before you release it because it there's just you know, your

competition isn't another Cubs podcast. Your competition is Netflix. Your

competition is, you know, the new David Gilmore album. Your

competition could be silence. And so when you're first starting

out, one of the things that can make your show

set apart from other brand new shows is, as Tom said,

think about it a little bit. Let it sit under the bed. Get some feedback.

And then one of the big chapters in the book is

all about editing. There's 3 levels of editing, I

think. I you know, level 1 is I don't edit at all

because I'm authentic. Well, authenticity,

yeah, authenticity means different things to different people. If I'm being authentic,

it's that I want to present the very best side of myself and

my ideas for my audience so that they will be understood in the

way that I want them to be understood. And for me not to do that

is to be inauthentic. So yeah. But, you know, I think, you know,

level 0 is no editing at all. Level 1 is where I think a lot

of podcasters are at, and that is, you know, let's remove the cough noises

and the ums and the ahs and someone stumbled and said, can you back up

and all that? And that's sort of hygiene level editing. And sometimes your podcast

needs a podoscopy. But advanced editing is this.

And I think, really, the podoscopy that I talk about

is a very careful and detailed listening

back to one of your shows and getting it completely

human transcribed. Every every

every hiccup, get it completely transcribed. Read through it and take a

red pen to it. Circle paragraphs and say, you know what? That should have been

before this paragraph. This would have been explained so much

better if I'd have asked this first. Well, you can do that in

editing because the job is to create an entertainment. It's to

create a narrative arc. It's to create something that from start to finish

answers the next question that the listener had, and you have the opportunity to

do that with editing. That's a lot of work for people. A lot of people

are gonna say, I don't have the time to do that. I don't have the

desire to do that or whatever, and that's totally fine. Don't do it. But

it is the path to a larger audience. That's you know, make no question about

it, is doing the is doing that work. And it's funny how everybody

says, oh, my content is fine. I saw someone in a

Facebook group saying, hey. How can I grow my audience? And,

look, we all start wherever we start. But I listened to the

show, and the first two minutes was the one cohost was

complaining they had a cold and they had a sore throat, and then

the other, cohost went into some other tale.

And I look. I'm no prude. They dropped a bunch of f

bombs that made, some adult jokes that weren't exactly funny, but that

was the first five minutes of the show, and that's one of the

areas that Tom feels a lot of people just blow it. The first

5 minutes of a podcast. And I think podcasters of all

sizes are guilty of a lot of throat clearing in those 5 minutes.

And that's not how a great TV show that you watch starts.

That's not how a great movie that you enjoy starts. It doesn't start with the

actors talking about what they had for dinner last night. Alright. Now let's get into

the script. That doesn't happen. And equally with the largest

podcasters, nothing irritates me more than, you know and I'll

I'll throw one out here. I listened to the Bill Simmons podcast, and

the first 4 to 5 minutes of it are ads. Well, your favorite

TV show doesn't do that. Your favorite TV show starts with content. It

starts with hook, then some ads. It does not start

immediately with the thing you absolutely did not tune in for, whether that's

an ad or extraneous content that isn't your topic. And it's

people's time is so valuable that it just it it it

literally pains me when I hear podcasters of any size waste

it. For me, Conan O'Brien, I like many of the

guests he has on his show. I think he does good interviews, but I

have to skip 7 minutes. And sometimes that's not

enough to actually get to the interview. And you can't

use those big shows as examples for stuff like that. Like, you know, if you

type well well, Conan O'Brien does it. Okay. Step 1, already

be Conan O'Brien. Yeah. That's gonna take a little while

to do. Now the last thing, if we think about this, we

have put a couple episodes under the bed. We let them

sit, then we got them out. We did a little podoscopy on

them. How do we know when we're done? How do we

know when it's good enough? Yeah.

That's a that's a really, really good question. I mean, I I think for that,

you know, you really do need to get some advice. And, you know, look,

writers workshops stuff all the time. You know, there are all kinds of

systems and applications and and methods out there for writers workshops, and I'm a big

fan of podcast workshops. I think getting their opinion in workshops, and I'm a big

fan of podcast workshops. I think getting their opinion and their input into the process

as much as you possibly can is going to make it better. And,

again, that doesn't mean that you are giving up your vision or your road map.

And as a lifelong media researcher,

I think research is often blamed for things that it doesn't do. I think what

asking for people's opinions even at the basic level of, quote, unquote,

research, it at least gives you the guardrails of

what not to do. Don't turn that far to the right. Don't turn that

far to the left. But in between those rails, that's where you can make your

art. And I think knowing both of those things is super valuable. If you wanna

get the book, I'll have a link in the show notes. Go out to school

of podcasting.com/949, or just visit

Tom's website for the book, audience is listening book.com.

But before he left, I had a couple things I wanted to ask Tom that

he kinda threw out there. He worked with Howard Stern. I was dying to know

what he did for The Howard Stern Show. I was studying the audience, and I

was you know, a lot of it was Howard has always created

controversy, and a lot of it was how wide are those

feelings? Is this a a noisy minority,

or is he really screwing up? And that was the thing that, you know, syndicators

and and local affiliates really wanted to know. And, you know,

I can tell you that the, you know, the FCC investigates

when for for AM FM radio. The FCC investigates every single

complaint as if it were a a bomb being dropped. And

I think over, one stretch of time, there were something like 233

complaints against Howard Stern, and 200 of them were from the

same person. And so it looks like it's like shark attack. If you

if if there's 2 shark attacks at a beach, then don't go to that beach.

It's a shark beach. Yeah. Okay. But, you know, the thing about Howard

and why Howard has been and continues to be so successful, you know,

his notoriety may be around controversial things that have been

said. Howard Stern is one of the 2 or 3 best interviewers on the

planet. He has the ability to immediately disarm a

guest and immediately get them to share things that they never would

have dreamed they would have been sharing in an interview show, and that's a gift,

and that's genius, and that's skill. And since Tom works in what I

call the advertising bubble, right, there are different bubbles in podcasting,

and Tom works with these big agencies and giant shows

around the advertising market. And so I wanted to ask

him because so many advertisers are worried

about buying advertising and podcasting because somebody might say booger,

to quote WKRP. And so why can't a podcaster

at the beginning of his episode just say, hey. The following views and

opinions are not necessarily, those that are shared by their

sponsors, and here was his answer. What you are establishing here is

not a legal precedent. You are acting in the court of public opinion.

And I think I'll I'll say this about brand safety and brand suitability because I

hear it a lot from our partners. We have many of our content producing partners

who who produce true crime content. And they hear from

advertisers, I don't want my brand associated with murder. Right? I don't want,

you know, murder brought to you by Toyota. Toyota, drive to your

murder. That, I think, is dramatically overstated

unfairly in podcasting because those same advertisers, you

know, watch any network news broadcast, watch any, you

know, either police procedural show like, you know, NCIS

or Law and Order or things like Dateline NBC or, you know, any kind

of true crime thing on TV. They're brought to you by insurance companies and

pharmaceuticals and financial services. They don't seem to have those issues on TV.

You know, I think that that those things are more a function of

skeptical buying public than any specific

objection to to to questionable content. Merely giving a

disclaimer does not let you off the hook. And then he let me know

one thing that's going on inside of ad agencies. Here's the

thing, Dave. The number one goal of 99%

of media buyers, brand teams at agencies, and so on, they have they

all share the same goal. So don't get fired. And one of the reasons why

this book is so good, yes, Tom works with big agencies.

However, never forget You know, I may earn a living

by partnering with, you know, with big podcasting. Right? With the larger

networks and things that are our partners, it sounds profitable. But, you know, my

feet are also squarely with the indies. I've been a podcaster myself since the

mid 2000. And some of the things that I talk about there

are lessons for big and small. And that's what makes the book

great. Again, the website for the book, audience

is listening book.com. I'll have links in the show notes.

Thanks, Tom, for coming on the show. I deeply appreciate it. Dave, an honor. You're

a legend. Thank you so much for having me.

Couple things that really stood out from this is

I don't think I'm that crazy when it comes to editing. I really do just

kinda level 1 stuff. The thing I noticed if you notice, we started

off with me kinda live with Tom, and then I switched

formats. Can you do that? Hey. It's my show. Yeah. I switched to a

narrative style podcast. You know why? It wasn't a bad

interview, but I I've known Tom over the years,

and I kept just saying something and not asking

a question. And so I went in and listened

to some of the questions I did ask and listened to the answer. One of

the questions you didn't hear was, how long ago did you write the

book? Because does it matter? Like, would you buy the book if it

was a year old versus 4 years old? No. I'm telling you right now,

it's a really good book. So I took that out. And when

it comes to the opening of your show, I love the

line from my cohost of the podcast

review show, Eric k Johnson. You can find it at podcasttalentcoach.com.

He says nobody's getting on a bus without knowing where it's

going. And so the intro of your show

should be welcome to the blah blah show and explain what that's

about. So welcome to the School of Podcasting where I help you plan, launch,

grow, and if you want to monetize your show. And then

explain what today's show is about, today's episode is about,

and then get to that as quickly as possible. That's really

it's not that hard of a recipe.

And Tom calls it throat clearing where we're just like,

I'm getting ready to get ready. And I loved his point

about you don't see that on TV. You kinda see

it in movies. And what I mean by that is I am one of

the weird people that when I do go to the movies, and I don't go

that often, I I go to see the trailers.

But he's saying when the movie starts, you don't see

them chit chatting. And I always say, put the

chitchat. Hey. What you've been up to there, squirmy?

Oh, well, you know, Nobles, I've been doing

this. Well, put that at the end where your superfans are still

listening. You really only have a

chance to make a you know, to get your hooks into them to where they

go, well, I wanna hear more at the beginning.

And it is kinda sad that there are apps. I'm right now

playing with Podcast Guru, and this might be

the app because it's got my favorite, which is a smart

playlist, where I can say, hey. When there's a new episode

from this health related show, put it in my health playlist.

I can have it download stuff. I can program what

speed I wanna listen to at, and it has the whole podcasting 2 point o

streaming thing. Although, I will say that right now, the

streaming satoshi things is kind of on pause unless you're using

truefans.fmorfountain.fm.

And so the feature

that more and more apps are putting in, Overcast,

Podurama, and now Podcast Guru, they make it

so that when you hit play on a podcast, you can skip Truefans,

by the way, truefans.fm. You can skip x amount of minutes

to get to the meat and potatoes. And I just

don't think that's the way to hook somebody in

by bombarding them with stories about your cat and

advertising. Think of your title of your

episode as a promise and get to that as soon

as possible. If you wanna hear more about this, I

do have a show. Yeah. I only do it when people pay me

for it. It's at podcast rodeo show dot com where I grab

a podcast and see how long I can hang on, and you will hear

people blow their first impression over and over

and over. Now if you I do have multiple ways. If you're looking for

feedback, I've got multiple ways of doing it. There's the

podcast rodeo show. There's the podcast hot seat.

That's where you get a free month at The School of Podcasting when you

order basically me to look at your episode and your

website and give you feedback. And while you're at The School of Podcasting,

you get unlimited consulting. Now if you want

more than one opinion and what an opinion it is, you can have

myself and Eric k Johnson, who I mentioned earlier, the podcast talent

coach. We do a show called the podcast review show, where, again, we

look over an episode, and we look over your

website. We bring you on live to kinda go over

what you were thinking, what's the the brand vision

of your show, and kinda help you polish it up a little bit. So

if you're looking for feedback on your show, we've got you

covered. And over the almost 20 years now that

I've been podcasting, I notice 2 things that

go hand in hand. A person says, I'm trying to

grow my audience. And when you ask them, did you get someone not

named mom or somebody that you're not related to to listen

to your show and give you constructive feedback? The answer is

always, oh, no. I don't think

that's a coincidence. I really don't. And that's something

you might want to consider even if you've been doing it for

4 years. I see a lot of low hanging fruit. Now another

mistake I'm gonna tell you about right after this.

When you are talking about a service you use so

let's say you're using Patreon. You shouldn't be

telling people, oh, go to patreon.com/davejackson.

You should be saying go to ask the podcast coach.com/awesome.

Why? Because I control that website.

And one of the things that when you first launch your

podcast, you wanna put links to

your show on places like Apple and Spotify

and Amazon and such. And there have been a

number of websites that have popped up. And one right now is

getting a a fair amount of people talking about, and that is episodes.fm.

It's a handy site. Nathan is the guy behind it.

And you can go there, search for your show, and it will give you

links to your show on Apple and Spotify and about

50 other websites. Now what I don't wanna hear people

do well, it's your show, but I wouldn't do this. Episodes.fms/whatever.

School of podcasting. Because right now, episodes.fm

is not charging anything. And I have noticed, again, in my

years of doing this, that free is not a good business model.

So if you're going to do that, do your

website.com/follow, which is what I do,

except I point to Podgagement. And then the other

thing I do is I have a page, school of

podcasting.com/subscribe. And that's typically what I

recommend. You want that page on your

website or a domain that you

control. Because if you were to

share school of podcasting.com/follow,

I really don't get any Google juice from that because it just says, oh,

that website's really over there on Podgagement. So I'm not

getting any SEO from that. So I always recommend putting the

links on your website, have it some sort of easy

to remember address like slash follow.

And now that I work for PodPage, I

wanna point out something else that I went, oh, you might wanna pay attention to

that. Because with PodPage, you can go into settings

and then go into I believe it's podcast player links or

something of that nature. And you can put the link

to your show on Apple and Spotify, and it does exactly what I

just said. It actually makes a slash follow page, and it's on your

website. So it reinforces your brand,

and it makes it super easy for people to listen on whatever platform.

But then you're like, ah, I gotta go get the link to my show on

Spotify, which isn't hard for the record. You search for your show,

hope that you can find it, and then there's a the 3 little buttons

that you see, you know, the 3 little dots. You click on those and copy

the show link, put it into your website, and there you

go. Well, you might go, oh, you know what? I can just get my links

from this episodes.fm place. And that sure looks

like you could. But here's the thing. When you search for

your show and you find it, the

link you are actually top, copying and this is

not a, you know, sinister thing

that the owner of episodes.fm is doing.

But when you go there, you type in your show like, oh, there's all my

links. Well, here's the thing. The link to my show on Apple

from episodes.hafem is episodes.fm/launch,

question mark show equals ID, which is my Apple

ID, 8365-8679, whatever it

is, at platform equals Apple, which will work

as long as episodes.fm, a

free service, is around. So

if you wanna use episodes.fm, a, it is super

simple. However, I would

say find the links yourself, put them on your

website to help reinforce your brand, and

boost your SEO. Now, like I said, I use school of

podcasting.com/follow to point people at

my Podgagemens, site with the links there. At

least that's a, you know, URL that I own.

I am not getting any SEO from that. So make up your

mind which one you want. There are multiple ways of doing it. You could point

people at, you know, any of these sites. Their Podlink was another

one back in the day. You can use those. Just realize

you're sneezing away your SEO. And like I said, you want to

get links that are the link to those platforms,

not something in the middleman. Another

service I've talked about with not a lot of, well, I

just didn't like it, is Listen Notes. And

somebody brought up a point, and I went, well, yeah, that

does become something you could use it for. So I've somewhat

changed my opinion on it. I'll explain why right after

this. The school of podcasting.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Alright. The following is just an opinion.

But if you're talking to someone and they go, well, I'm a top

0.5% podcaster at

listen notes. And if you're new to the show, the reason why that's

kinda bunk is Listen Notes compares you

to 100 of thousands of podcasts.

Many of them like, congratulations. You're beating that show about

Tiger King from 2020. Yeah. I hope so. My

buddy, Steve Stewart, had a show that was ranking, I believe, in the

top 5 or 10%, and he hadn't put out an episode

in 7 years. So if someone, in my opinion,

quotes their listen notes stats as a way

to validate their,

I don't know, podcastness. I think I'm gonna make up a word there. I

think that's bunk, for lack of a better phrase. It's just like, okay.

Congratulations. You've you've beaten something, you know, that show

from 2,011 about whatever.

Yeah. Congrats on that. So that's I've I've always kind of

cringed. I I actually have friends that do that. I'm like, because to

me, they know that. If if they're worth

their weight in in podcasting consulting, they should know

that status is bunk. It's

and yet if they still use it, that means either a, they're just gonna use

it because it's marketing. And, you know, marketing's kinda lying or

or just kinda politely pulling the wool over people's eyes.

And I'm like, I nope. Sorry. But

somebody did go, couldn't you use listen notes for this?

Then I went, well, yeah, you could. So what

is that? And I still think this is not a a great idea, but

I I've switched my opinion on well, yep. You could use listen notes

for that. And these are people that are trying to get booked

on big shows. I wanna get booked on the top shows of

podcasting and, you know, money will fall from heaven.

Yeah. Okay. So even though the way they rate

shows is is flawed, It

is consistent. So if you wanted to see

what the biggest shows were in your field,

you could use that. Just realize that I

would not put in my marketing materials, I've

appeared on a top 0.5% podcast, etcetera,

such as such and such because there are people that know that

stat is, like, not good. And you're gonna end up being

kind of a millivanilli kinda way where all of a sudden, everybody's gonna find out

and go, oh. Now that's just my opinion,

but I've seen it happen before. And so I guess

if you really want to see the top shows now you could also go to

Chartable and search the charts that way. You could go to

Apple and search the charts there. But I I think you're

missing one of the key points of being on

shows. It's not about being on the big shows. It's

about being on the right show because you could be on

a top 200 show about beans,

but your show is about motocross. And,

sure, some motocross people may eat beans,

but wouldn't it be better to be on a show about, I don't know, motocross?

So that's my thought on listen notes. And

since I somewhat almost went, yeah, I guess that

would work, I thought I would share. I'm always open to suggestions

and ideas just because I expressed an opinion that's based on

the facts and the

actions and results that I see in the podcasting

space, and I might be missing something. So I'm always open

for new input. The school of

podcasting. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Last little thing I

wanted to throw in here and as I mentioned earlier, I'm all about

feedback. And I got some feedback from my buddy Ralph

over at ask ralphpodcast.com. If you're looking for a show

about finance from a Christian point of view, check him out at askraufpodcast.com,

and he was listening to the show I do called Ask the

Podcast Coach. And we were getting, I would I

that's a show I do crowdfunding. I do I have a, an account

at Supercast. I used to use Patreon.

And while I'm doing it live, people are doing super

chats because it's on YouTube. And,

apparently, and I know I'm guilty of this, I often call

those donations. I'd be like, hey. Thanks so much for the donation.

And Ralph, being a guy with 30 years of

tax knowledge, politely said, hey,

Dave. You might wanna be careful throwing out the word

donation unless you're an actual nonprofit

because the FTC doesn't like it when you bend the

truth. And so that's why the FTC has busted influencers

who are saying they'll hold up a bottle of something. They're like, I love this

stuff. Yeah. Well, you need to let your audience know that you just got paid

$35 to hold that up. There are the FTC is

now going over people who are fudging your numbers. So if

you have a bunch of people overseas clicking on

iPhones to run up your numbers, especially if you

have advertisers, I like to call that fraud, but the FTC

is starting to crack down on that. And so

as influencers, and that's a word I am really not comfortable with, but

you get the idea. When we have an audience, we have to be careful

what we say because the bigger we are, the bigger the

chance that the FTC might come knocking on our door,

and they go, okay. So I understand you're a nonprofit. And you're

like, no. And they're like, well, you've been accepting, in quotation marks, mister

Jackson, donations. And then in the immortal

words of Ricky Ricardo, I got lots of explaining to do.

What kind of accent was that? I have no idea. But, just thank

you, Ralph, for the input. And, so what do you call

it when somebody sends you money? I talked about it a a couple episodes

ago, but there are these ways for people to support your show,

And I believe that's the phrase I'm gonna be using. Thank you so much for

your support. That was an old remember Bartles and James? Anybody

around here from the eighties? There was a, 2 old guys on a

porch drinking wine coolers, and they'd be like, thank you so much for your

support. Maybe that's the line we need to adopt. Instead of thank you

so much for the donations, it's thank you so much for the

support. And with that, I say, thank you so much for your

support. Anybody who went out to thanks davejackson.com,

That's the thing I threw out there just to see if anybody would. So thank

you to everyone who did that. If you are looking

to really, like, take your podcast

up a notch and you need some feedback, and and you need

somebody to go, hey. You got some low hanging fruit there.

I would love to help you. It's what I do. Go to school of podcasting.com/listener

or just use the coupon code listener when you sign up. That's great

on a 30 or 30 day or yearly

membership. And if you're worried about that, don't because you can go, hey, Dave. It's

day number 29. Can I get a refund? And I will go, yes. And

that comes with unlimited consulting. It comes with an amazing

an amazing community with people like Ralph and Craig

and Chrissy and the whole Chrissy, I shouldn't have named names Stephanie. See,

I could be here for an hour now naming names. And, also,

step by step courses on how to plan, launch, and grow your podcast.

And if you wanna monetize, there's stuff on that too. Schoolofpodcasting.com.

Thanks so much for tuning in. Until next week. Take

care. God bless. Class is dismissed.