Eddie: Welcome to episode 30, one of the web joy podcast.
I'm your host Eddie.
And in this podcast, we interview guests about their origin story and
what makes them excited and joyful to be part of the tech community.
I hope you enjoy today's episode.
Trying to be that person I wished was there when I was learning to code.
With results, Scarlet.
Welcome to another episode of Web Joy.
I'm excited to have Raelle with us today.
Raelle, say hi to everyone listening.
Hey
Rizel: everyone, like you said, my name's Raelle and I'm really excited to be here.
Eddie: Awesome.
Well, so for those who might not know who you are, just go ahead and mention kind
of what you do, where you work a brief.
Rizel: Yeah, so my full name's Raelle Scarlet, and I work at
GitHub as a developer advocate.
And what that means, like in a short way, is like I'm empowering developers
through content, code, and community.
Eddie: I love that though, empowering developers through content.
Code and community.
That was, that was slick.
That's real nice.
Thank you.
What's the short version of your story?
Right?
How did you decide that you wanted to get into programming and that tech was
something that you wanna be involved
Rizel: in?
Yeah, really great question.
So short version is I was in college study in psychology because I thought like, I
don't know what to study, that it seems cool to maybe know about people's minds.
And then I realized I didn't have enough finances to continue.
And I kept talking to people and they're like, yeah, you're gonna need
to like go to grad school to actually like start working as a psychologist.
So I was like, oh.
They're like, . I'm like, I don't even have money for this semester.
So I, I , I ended up like dropping out and like re.
Thinking about like what my plan was and I was Googling what
jobs make the most money Nice.
And like all these technical jobs kept coming up.
And I was like, okay, I can use the computer.
I'll, I'll try that.
. Um, and then I signed up for a community college study,
computer information system.
Started working as a help desk technician, but I felt like very
quickly that I was, it was fun for me to like, help people face-to-face.
I really enjoyed that, but I felt very quickly that it wasn't challenging for me.
Like, I'm like within six months to a year, I feel like I, I know
most of the things, so I wanted to challenge myself a little bit more.
I kept hearing people at a company I was working at, talking about APIs and stuff
like that, and I was like, what is this?
I kind of wanna learn to code.
So I went to a coding bootcamp.
I called Resilient Coders, learn to code.
became a software engineer and at the same time got my degree in
computer science and then after that I switched into developer advocacy.
But yeah, that's the short story,
. Eddie: Wow.
Awesome.
Well that's amazing.
Like you actually did a coding bootcamp and got a degree.
Yeah.
As a career switcher.
Like that is definitely unusual for kind of a career switch
. Rizel: Yeah, I think that was just imposter syndrome.
I don't think I will recommend it to.
because it was very time consuming.
Yeah.
And financially, well, the bootcamp was free, but college, I was like, Hmm, maybe
I didn't need all of these classes that
Eddie: I'm doing.
No, that makes sense.
What has the journey been like?
Did you start at GitHub?
Have you been at a couple companies along the way?
What has that journey for you been like once you started programming?
Rizel: Good question.
So once I started programming, I went to a couple like small companies
in the Boston areas, and then after that I worked at a remote company, I
think it's in Seattle, called Botany.
So I was a software engineer.
Kind of more startupy companies.
It's been almost a year of me working
Eddie: at GitHub . I definitely kinda had a similar trajectory where it was
like just a bunch of like startups and Noname stuff, and I did one job was
government contracting, but pretty much outside of that it's been pretty much all
startups along the journey until recently.
So yeah, it's, it's nice.
Like, it's funny because when you.
Talking about your journey, you're like, I'm gonna name all these
things that like you probably have no idea what they are, right?
Yeah.
. But I don't know.
It gives you a lot of opportunity, right?
To like do different things.
Like there's so few people.
You have to learn a lot of kind of skills on the job, which I imagine
can probably be intimidating, right?
But, uh, , you walk out with a lot of knowledge.
Yeah, I
Rizel: agree.
I think we both probably took a lot of transferrable skills from those
roles that helped us to excel in like larger companies because there's less,
less things you have to focus on.
You just have like your one little niche and you're like,
cool, I'll focus on and on that
. Eddie: Exactly.
That is, that is one thing like.
So I started at Glassdoor a little bit around a year ago.
So, um, sounds like we, we changed companies around the same time.
, it was like intimidating because you, you start as big company and
you look around and you're like, all these people are so amazing.
Like, I can't believe.
Yeah.
Like, I'm working with these people.
, but then it's really cool cause you realize like, oh, you feel like you're
not doing enough because you're just doing like one thing and you're like,
shouldn't I be doing like 10 things?
Like
? Rizel: Yeah.
You're like, I'm used to doing this, this, this and this.
Sometimes people are like, wow, you work a lot.
I'm like, I don't know.
I'm used to like the startup life.
So , this feels like working not that much to me.
trying to chill.
Yeah,
Eddie: exactly.
That's awesome.
Well, what do you think kind.
You have enjoyed most about programming, right?
You kind of went down, you know, this psychology route and
we're like, all right, well this isn't really gonna work out.
So you tried it work and help desk, and that didn't really click right?
That was like, oh, I'm not kind of challenging myself enough.
But you stuck with programming, so what is it that kind of got you to stick with it?
Yeah, I think
Rizel: the, the constant challenge and the ability to create has
been really awesome for me.
Like I loved it.
Like I will say I loved it cuz I loved like the idea of like helping people.
That's where I was getting my joy from.
But I was like, I wanna do, I wish I could help people in a more proactive
way, cuz with it sometimes it's, People like, oh, I can't open Google Chrome.
And I'm like, did you try double clicking it?
And they're like, wow, that works.
So . Like, I wish I was like, I wish I could do something more proactive
and helping people have better user experiences and stuff like that.
And I feel like I've gotten that from programming and I think even more so
from developer advocacy where I can like talk to other engineers and be
like, Hey, how is it going for you?
Or talk to open source maintainers and figure out.
How we can make the product better for them, what struggles they're
currently having and how I can like make their lives easier.
So I think it's like I just have an intrinsic interest in like helping others
and being like challenged a little bit.
So I think that's that's where
Eddie: it is.
Yeah.
I definitely noticed as you were just talking, The thing you liked about
Right doing the help desk was that you really liked helping people, and it
instantly, in my mind, I'm like, well, it makes complete sense that you're
a developer advocate then, right?
Like developer relations.
Like it is the blend of programming, technology and helping people
together, so that's awesome.
Exactly.
Have you kind of always been, since you learned a program, have you always
been doing kind of developer relations or is this more of a new thing?
Rizel: When I hear about like what other people were doing before
developer relations, they're like, yeah, I had a YouTube channel and all
these blog posts and stuff like that.
I didn't have those things, but I did help to start an organization
called G-Code, which I guess could be considered developer
relations like we were introducing.
Women of color and non-binary people of color to web development.
So like I made the curriculum, I created the slide decks, I taught, I even taught
like other volunteer mentors how to teach.
So that in a way was like developer advocacy.
But it wasn't in the more traditional way that people think of it.
Eddie: Sure.
That's awesome.
Cuz that was on the side, right?
Yeah.
So kind of before you were doing really develop advocacy in your
day job, you started take kind of living that passion out on the side.
Yeah, exactly.
That's awesome.
I love that.
And thank you.
Like you said, trying to Right, expand.
Tech.
Right.
Making it more available and inclusive to people of color.
I love that.
Especially obviously that's something that you have experience with, right?
Yeah.
I feel like a lot of times, you know, you see a lot of good, well-intentioned
organizations, but it's oftentimes set up by people in the establishment.
Right?
You might have like Yeah.
White cis men.
Yeah.
And it's like, all right, we're gonna create diversity, and I love.
That that is their goal, right?
Like it, yeah, it's better than them not wanting to do that.
But I also love it when people who actually have that experience,
right, of what it's like to be a person of color in tech.
It's much different, unfortunately.
And so yeah, you're able to really shed light on and and help people, which is.
Rizel: Yeah, I think that really helped me to run the program well and helped me
to, to get really excited about the idea of empowering engineers because like I
could relate to those students and I was like, oh, I know how it would be for you.
And we, we did a lot of things.
Me and, um, my colleague Bailey, we did stuff like making sure they
had to like Uber each gift cards and stuff like that during class.
, you know, other stuff that would meet their needs rather than
just only thinking about coding.
Eddie: Yeah.
It has a more holistic approach cuz you wanna kind of understand
the mindset and the circumstances that they might be coming from.
Yeah.
Well, cool.
You know, one of the things we like to talk about on this podcast is
something that brings us joy and so I kind of just wanted to say,
you know, what's something that.
you've been involved with that brings you joy that you'd like to talk about?
Yeah.
Rizel: Um, G Code is definitely an organization that brings me joy.
I've moved more into an advisory role rather than the director of
programming, which is what I was before, just because it's easier to balance.
But one of the reasons that it brings me joy is that I am trying to.
That person that I wished was there for me when I was learning
to code and like learning to, to navigate the tech industry.
I feel like, like you said, like as a person of color, as a black
person specifically, it's a much different experience that a lot
of people aren't educated on.
I really like being able to help them and I really love when they
come back and they do tell me, like, that was really helpful for me.
I really like, enjoyed the classes, gonna miss you, stuff like that.
Or they come back and tell me they landed a job.
Um, like those are the type of things that I appreciate and get excited about.
What does
Eddie: the kind of pro program.
What kind of look like and feel like.
Rizel: It's not a long-term like coding bootcamp, so what we do is like we start
off by, I think we meet on Sundays.
Yeah.
I don't know if they changed it since now I'm in advisory role, but when I was doing
it, we met on Sundays and it would just be like six to 10 Sundays and we did Sundays
because it would be easier for them to.
Like be cutting off their work schedule and stuff like that.
It was more flexible for the students.
So we meet on Sundays and we will go over like H T M L, CSS and
JavaScript and that would be it.
After that, we would move them on to like another longer term program that
we have like partnership with or we know is free, like Code the Dream or launch.
And I think the, the way I structured it really well, like I don't go
faster than they would understand.
So if they're like, Hey, I don't get this, like, we will do another
day of like learning that concept over and in different ways.
I make sure that like we're not just learn focused on one learning style.
, I believe that people learn from like repetition, so I'll do it in like visuals.
I'll do it by them doing hands on and I'll do it by them like hearing
it so they'll get all like all three or all the possible options.
And then of course we try to make sure there is like holistic approach
as well and we'll have like game nights and stuff like that for them
to get connect with each other.
That's, that's kind of how it is.
Eddie: Awesome.
No, that sounds great and I love.
You're not trying to tackle everything, right?
You're no doing a strategic starting point, and then you've built
partnerships to say, Hey, like this can kind of help carry you through.
That's really well, well thought out.
I guess.
What challenges do you feel like exist, right?
When people are getting into tech, right?
You got into tech, you're helping all these people get into tech.
What kind of things kind of have you.
Encountered or have you seen people encounter that make it difficult?
Yeah,
Rizel: there's a lot.
I think one of the things is like quote unquote imposter syndrome.
I say the quotes because a lot of times it's not really that the person has
imposter syndrome, or maybe they have a little bit, but a lot of times it's
like other people telling them things.
Like that's what I experienced at least, and I've talked to.
Underrepresented minorities, and they said like, yes, they agree.
Like a lot of times you'll be like, at least I went in and I was
like, okay, maybe I don't know any everything, and I'm a little bit
nervous, but I'm willing to learn.
But then you may meet with some in tech.
Sometimes we wanna seem like we know it all.
So you might have coworkers who they may speak to you in a more
condescending tone or say things like, oh, I would've expected you would
know this, or something like that.
And I think that kind of stuff starts to create imposter syndrome in somebody else.
Or they might even tell you, oh, you just have imposter syndrome, and
I'm just like, no, you are making that person feel bad and you're not
creating inclusive environment for them to feel confident with learning.
So I think that's like a big issue that does happen.
Eddie: Yeah.
I love that call out because I think for plenty of people, like imposter syndrome
is real, but it has to be separated from the actual act of someone making someone
feel unwelcome and feel like an imposter.
And I think that is dangerous, right?
If we just always kind of cloak it as, oh, that's imposter syndrome,
you're just feeling like an imposter.
Like, well, no, there's an environment that's making you
feel that way and exactly.
You can self-talk all you want, but if someone keeps saying
You don't know that, then like you're never gonna get over that.
Like you have to change.
Yeah.
The environment has to change and be more welcoming and inclusive to allow
that self-talk, to be able to kind of put it to the sides, you know?
Yeah.
You said it
Rizel: really, really perfectly.
Aw
. Eddie: Thanks.
That's really great.
I think that's one thing.
I really have appreciated about tech Twitter lately, although
there's definitely areas of tech Twitter that can go off the rails.
Environments can be what they can be.
Yeah.
But I know when I really got into tech, like no one was really willing
to share what kind of issues they ran into or what challenges they ran into.
And so I do think as.
Unfortunately, people in this industry who are going to kind of talk down and
kind of gate keep, you know, and try to keep it be like an elite class of
like programmers or whatever, whatever nonsense they're trying to pedal, at
least like in the community and like Twitter and different things like that.
We do have a number of people who.
Can kind of shed light on that.
Right.
And we have, yeah.
Communities like the G Code House that can help prepare and say, Hey listen,
here's some things you're gonna run into and find people who build you up.
Find people who invest in you rather than just tear you down.
Yes, I
Rizel: love tech Twitter for that reason.
When I was having a tough time in tech, it was definitely.
My, my go-to and I've found that like similar to what you said about
communities, I've found that finding community helps to like reduce
those feelings of imposter syndrome.
Cuz like that's, that's the main thing behind imposter syndrome
is that you feel like you are the only one and you don't belong.
So once you find those, those communities, whether it be online, You,
you have a group of people in person.
I really do feel like that can help to reduce the The negative experience.
Eddie: Absolutely.
Right.
Especially cuz like when people are actively hearing like those statements
and then you log on Twitter and you see people at prominent companies, right?
Like I follow someone who works at Netflix, right?
And then of course, yeah, you work at GitHub and like when people at these
more well-known companies are willing to.
Open and transparent and say, Hey, here's what people have told me.
And like people are actively, like they'll tweet things and
then they'll be like, oh, okay.
Everyone's coming out and saying, I don't know how to do this.
Like, I think I know how to do it.
I work at Netflix.
You know?
And it's like, yeah, showing that even when someone is successful, like
people are still gonna kind of try to.
Gate, keep them like
. Rizel: Yeah.
You brought up a good point,
. Eddie: So I guess what other things have you run into while kind of being
in tech that you found challenging?
I mean,
Rizel: in addition to maybe companies or coworkers not being as welcoming.
I think sometimes hustle culture.
Can make it challenging too because you never know or you, you're not
sure like, am I doing enough work or you're feeling pressured to do more?
And that that like leads to burnout and that leads to people wanting to quit.
So yeah, that's been another main issue that I've seen pop up.
That
Eddie: makes sense for sure.
Yeah, I think it's interesting cuz that's kind of tied in with like how
people do performance reviews, right?
And like how their manager engages with them and it's like, okay, oftentimes
managers can kind of be hands off and just let you do what you do.
And so you're constantly kind of wondering like, where do I stand with this person?
And it's like, yeah, finally once a year, right?
They like give you.
Satisfactory label and you're like, oh, few I made it another year.
Right?
Like . Yeah.
Rizel: That is how it can be , I feel like on both sides, like the company and
the, the worker or the employee, I don't know what to call them, but the developer.
Yeah.
Um, , I think there can be improvements made.
I think we need to.
Change how we're doing mentorship.
I feel like tons of times that people have been like, oh, this is your mentor.
And then like I've, I've never talked to them beyond like one time
like, oh, hey, you're my mentor.
And then they just like don't, I don't know, like when you
have like an onboarding buddy at GitHub, that hasn't happened.
But at like past companies, it's been like, oh, this is your onboarding bunny.
And then they.
never do anything, or I reach out and ask a question, no
answer questions are answered.
And I think, uh, that's not like, uh, only me situation.
So like, yeah, revamping how we're doing mentorship and like how
you said where you may not know, where you stand with your manager.
Figuring out like a communication plan of like how does your manager want to best
be communicated with, and then versus like, how do you wanna be communicated
with, it's just there's a lot.
Things that I think we can do better, especially for either like junior
engineers or people from underrepresented backgrounds, cuz I think those are, at
least for me, those are the people that I've spoken to that often leave the
industry, whereas they were initially excited and then they get discouraged.
Eddie: Yeah, because I think right when you are encountering more an additional
blockers, right, like the industry is, is hard enough to kind of break into, right?
And even if you fit the mold, and I am in the fortunate place that
no one's ever looked at me and said, oh, you don't know that.
And it's probably just because of assumptions, right?
The biases and assumptions.
Someone looks at me and I've got glasses and.
I'm white and I'm a dude, and you know, like I kind of fit, like, someone's
like, oh yeah, there's a nerd.
All right.
Like he knows how to program, you know, like . Yeah.
I can say gibberish and like unfortunately that bias works in my favor.
Right?
But, and yet even in that where like I have this systemic kind
of help and support, I still have run into blockers myself, right?
Like, yeah.
And so it's like, Even people who have a pretty smooth path can run into blockers.
Like that's just gonna pile up right on.
People who have kind of systemic issues pushing against them and making
it harder with biases and stuff.
And so I definitely can see how that would lead to faster burnout, right?
Because it's like if you have that feeling of you shouldn't belong,
you're gonna work harder hours, right?
Because you're gonna feel like you're behind everyone else and.
If you don't feel steady in your job, you might not feel as confident to.
Push back to your manager, right.
And ask.
Yeah.
And like really probe.
And so I think in that way it's, if you're listening and you're in that situation,
like kind of like we talked about, right?
Find community, find people who can say, Hey, here's what
I said, here's what I did.
Um, to kind of encourage you like how you can push back and how you can
kind of take control of the situation, even if say your manager isn't, yeah.
So that's, that's definitely good.
And yeah, and hopefully.
As we continue to, to push and change right?
Our companies and like we get my more diversity in our companies.
Like we'll have managers who have gone these paths and understood right, these
roadblocks and people, right, like me, who are on the journey to learning roadblocks,
everyone is encountering, like hopefully we can continue to make changes inside
that, um, make things more welcoming.
Rizel: I definitely see us taking that, that path we're getting.
So I don't want it to seem all negative, but I like to be transparent about
this so that if there's other people who are, like you said, like not sure
if they should stay in tech, I want them to know like if this is a common
occurrence or experience and there's ways
Eddie: around it.
Yeah.
You're.
You're not alone.
Reach out to people.
Twitter is a great place.
But, um, there's also, you know, all sorts of communities.
There's actually been a lot of different communities that have
been mentioned on previous episodes.
So like you can go back through our archives and listen, I'm trying to
get together a website that will actually like list all the cool
communities and different things that people have experienced.
So you can look at the, the podcast website and when you're listening to
this, see if I've actually released it or.
Hopefully by the time this gets released, I've, I've updated the website, , . But
yeah, find there's all sorts of, uh, communities, so kinda look back and,
and find different communities people have recommended and yeah, get plugged
in where people can encourage you and, and help you know which way to go.
So Raelle is there, I guess if someone wanted to get involved in the
G Code house, what should they do?
Rizel: Yeah, you can go ahead and follow G Code House on Twitter at G Code House
and then on, um, you can check out their website at the g code house.com.
. There is an option where it says like, join us or get
involved, or something like that.
I don't remember, but that's where you would go if you wanted to volunteer
and if you wanted to be a student, there's like an apply section.
Eddie: Well, that sounds great.
Raelle, thank you so much for joining us today.
It's been just a pleasure of chatting, getting to know you and your story
and just hearing about how you.
I like to encourage people to just keep pushing through when the times get
Rizel: tough.
Thanks.
It was great talking to you as well.
I really enjoyed this conversation.
Awesome.
Eddie: Thank you for joining us for episode 31.
Trying to be that person I wished was there.
When I was learning to code with Rozelle Scarlet, you can find out more about
resil on her Twitter at black girl bites.
You can find links to everything we talked about in this episode, as well as a link
to results Twitter in the show notes.
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