1 00:00:02,586 --> 00:00:06,156 Eddie: Welcome to episode 30, one of the web joy podcast. 2 00:00:06,456 --> 00:00:07,626 I'm your host Eddie. 3 00:00:07,896 --> 00:00:11,916 And in this podcast, we interview guests about their origin story and 4 00:00:11,916 --> 00:00:15,966 what makes them excited and joyful to be part of the tech community. 5 00:00:16,296 --> 00:00:18,006 I hope you enjoy today's episode. 6 00:00:18,366 --> 00:00:21,756 Trying to be that person I wished was there when I was learning to code. 7 00:00:22,056 --> 00:00:23,106 With results, Scarlet. 8 00:00:25,049 --> 00:00:27,599 Welcome to another episode of Web Joy. 9 00:00:27,629 --> 00:00:29,999 I'm excited to have Raelle with us today. 10 00:00:30,539 --> 00:00:32,459 Raelle, say hi to everyone listening. 11 00:00:32,969 --> 00:00:33,239 Hey 12 00:00:33,244 --> 00:00:37,409 Rizel: everyone, like you said, my name's Raelle and I'm really excited to be here. 13 00:00:38,009 --> 00:00:38,759 Eddie: Awesome. 14 00:00:39,179 --> 00:00:44,039 Well, so for those who might not know who you are, just go ahead and mention kind 15 00:00:44,039 --> 00:00:46,229 of what you do, where you work a brief. 16 00:00:47,474 --> 00:00:51,164 Rizel: Yeah, so my full name's Raelle Scarlet, and I work at 17 00:00:51,164 --> 00:00:53,094 GitHub as a developer advocate. 18 00:00:53,474 --> 00:00:58,184 And what that means, like in a short way, is like I'm empowering developers 19 00:00:58,189 --> 00:00:59,954 through content, code, and community. 20 00:01:00,434 --> 00:01:04,334 Eddie: I love that though, empowering developers through content. 21 00:01:04,764 --> 00:01:06,534 Code and community. 22 00:01:06,534 --> 00:01:07,854 That was, that was slick. 23 00:01:07,854 --> 00:01:08,604 That's real nice. 24 00:01:09,354 --> 00:01:09,894 Thank you. 25 00:01:10,104 --> 00:01:12,204 What's the short version of your story? 26 00:01:12,204 --> 00:01:12,444 Right? 27 00:01:12,444 --> 00:01:16,524 How did you decide that you wanted to get into programming and that tech was 28 00:01:16,529 --> 00:01:17,754 something that you wanna be involved 29 00:01:17,754 --> 00:01:17,904 Rizel: in? 30 00:01:18,234 --> 00:01:20,034 Yeah, really great question. 31 00:01:20,034 --> 00:01:26,064 So short version is I was in college study in psychology because I thought like, I 32 00:01:26,064 --> 00:01:29,784 don't know what to study, that it seems cool to maybe know about people's minds. 33 00:01:30,234 --> 00:01:34,224 And then I realized I didn't have enough finances to continue. 34 00:01:34,569 --> 00:01:37,359 And I kept talking to people and they're like, yeah, you're gonna need 35 00:01:37,359 --> 00:01:41,859 to like go to grad school to actually like start working as a psychologist. 36 00:01:41,859 --> 00:01:42,759 So I was like, oh. 37 00:01:43,209 --> 00:01:46,659 They're like, . I'm like, I don't even have money for this semester. 38 00:01:46,839 --> 00:01:51,579 So I, I , I ended up like dropping out and like re. 39 00:01:51,819 --> 00:01:55,239 Thinking about like what my plan was and I was Googling what 40 00:01:55,239 --> 00:01:56,499 jobs make the most money Nice. 41 00:01:56,649 --> 00:01:59,289 And like all these technical jobs kept coming up. 42 00:01:59,289 --> 00:02:01,629 And I was like, okay, I can use the computer. 43 00:02:01,839 --> 00:02:02,829 I'll, I'll try that. 44 00:02:04,689 --> 00:02:07,569 . Um, and then I signed up for a community college study, 45 00:02:07,574 --> 00:02:08,829 computer information system. 46 00:02:08,829 --> 00:02:12,369 Started working as a help desk technician, but I felt like very 47 00:02:12,369 --> 00:02:16,809 quickly that I was, it was fun for me to like, help people face-to-face. 48 00:02:16,809 --> 00:02:20,139 I really enjoyed that, but I felt very quickly that it wasn't challenging for me. 49 00:02:21,074 --> 00:02:24,434 Like, I'm like within six months to a year, I feel like I, I know 50 00:02:24,434 --> 00:02:28,424 most of the things, so I wanted to challenge myself a little bit more. 51 00:02:28,424 --> 00:02:33,974 I kept hearing people at a company I was working at, talking about APIs and stuff 52 00:02:33,979 --> 00:02:35,864 like that, and I was like, what is this? 53 00:02:35,864 --> 00:02:37,124 I kind of wanna learn to code. 54 00:02:37,124 --> 00:02:39,104 So I went to a coding bootcamp. 55 00:02:39,374 --> 00:02:41,624 I called Resilient Coders, learn to code. 56 00:02:41,959 --> 00:02:45,829 became a software engineer and at the same time got my degree in 57 00:02:46,099 --> 00:02:50,059 computer science and then after that I switched into developer advocacy. 58 00:02:50,149 --> 00:02:51,859 But yeah, that's the short story, 59 00:02:52,374 --> 00:02:52,669 . Eddie: Wow. 60 00:02:52,669 --> 00:02:53,239 Awesome. 61 00:02:53,239 --> 00:02:54,379 Well that's amazing. 62 00:02:54,379 --> 00:02:58,429 Like you actually did a coding bootcamp and got a degree. 63 00:02:58,639 --> 00:02:58,909 Yeah. 64 00:02:58,999 --> 00:03:00,619 As a career switcher. 65 00:03:00,619 --> 00:03:04,489 Like that is definitely unusual for kind of a career switch 66 00:03:05,329 --> 00:03:07,879 . Rizel: Yeah, I think that was just imposter syndrome. 67 00:03:07,879 --> 00:03:09,799 I don't think I will recommend it to. 68 00:03:10,599 --> 00:03:12,609 because it was very time consuming. 69 00:03:12,819 --> 00:03:12,969 Yeah. 70 00:03:12,999 --> 00:03:18,459 And financially, well, the bootcamp was free, but college, I was like, Hmm, maybe 71 00:03:18,464 --> 00:03:20,529 I didn't need all of these classes that 72 00:03:20,529 --> 00:03:20,929 Eddie: I'm doing. 73 00:03:21,859 --> 00:03:22,769 No, that makes sense. 74 00:03:23,459 --> 00:03:25,529 What has the journey been like? 75 00:03:25,529 --> 00:03:27,179 Did you start at GitHub? 76 00:03:27,179 --> 00:03:29,369 Have you been at a couple companies along the way? 77 00:03:29,369 --> 00:03:32,729 What has that journey for you been like once you started programming? 78 00:03:33,179 --> 00:03:33,999 Rizel: Good question. 79 00:03:34,004 --> 00:03:38,249 So once I started programming, I went to a couple like small companies 80 00:03:38,254 --> 00:03:42,149 in the Boston areas, and then after that I worked at a remote company, I 81 00:03:42,149 --> 00:03:44,129 think it's in Seattle, called Botany. 82 00:03:44,309 --> 00:03:45,719 So I was a software engineer. 83 00:03:46,184 --> 00:03:48,614 Kind of more startupy companies. 84 00:03:48,854 --> 00:03:50,804 It's been almost a year of me working 85 00:03:50,804 --> 00:03:55,304 Eddie: at GitHub . I definitely kinda had a similar trajectory where it was 86 00:03:55,304 --> 00:04:00,314 like just a bunch of like startups and Noname stuff, and I did one job was 87 00:04:00,314 --> 00:04:03,974 government contracting, but pretty much outside of that it's been pretty much all 88 00:04:03,979 --> 00:04:06,344 startups along the journey until recently. 89 00:04:06,349 --> 00:04:08,264 So yeah, it's, it's nice. 90 00:04:08,269 --> 00:04:09,764 Like, it's funny because when you. 91 00:04:10,144 --> 00:04:12,334 Talking about your journey, you're like, I'm gonna name all these 92 00:04:12,334 --> 00:04:14,944 things that like you probably have no idea what they are, right? 93 00:04:14,984 --> 00:04:15,464 Yeah. 94 00:04:15,744 --> 00:04:16,185 . But I don't know. 95 00:04:16,190 --> 00:04:18,004 It gives you a lot of opportunity, right? 96 00:04:18,004 --> 00:04:19,924 To like do different things. 97 00:04:19,924 --> 00:04:21,304 Like there's so few people. 98 00:04:21,304 --> 00:04:24,754 You have to learn a lot of kind of skills on the job, which I imagine 99 00:04:24,754 --> 00:04:26,404 can probably be intimidating, right? 100 00:04:26,404 --> 00:04:29,204 But, uh, , you walk out with a lot of knowledge. 101 00:04:29,414 --> 00:04:29,894 Yeah, I 102 00:04:29,894 --> 00:04:30,254 Rizel: agree. 103 00:04:30,254 --> 00:04:34,394 I think we both probably took a lot of transferrable skills from those 104 00:04:34,394 --> 00:04:38,444 roles that helped us to excel in like larger companies because there's less, 105 00:04:38,774 --> 00:04:40,214 less things you have to focus on. 106 00:04:40,214 --> 00:04:42,344 You just have like your one little niche and you're like, 107 00:04:42,344 --> 00:04:43,994 cool, I'll focus on and on that 108 00:04:44,864 --> 00:04:45,584 . Eddie: Exactly. 109 00:04:45,584 --> 00:04:47,154 That is, that is one thing like. 110 00:04:47,744 --> 00:04:50,564 So I started at Glassdoor a little bit around a year ago. 111 00:04:50,564 --> 00:04:54,134 So, um, sounds like we, we changed companies around the same time. 112 00:04:55,424 --> 00:04:58,544 , it was like intimidating because you, you start as big company and 113 00:04:58,544 --> 00:05:00,824 you look around and you're like, all these people are so amazing. 114 00:05:00,824 --> 00:05:01,694 Like, I can't believe. 115 00:05:01,694 --> 00:05:01,754 Yeah. 116 00:05:02,054 --> 00:05:02,964 Like, I'm working with these people. 117 00:05:03,869 --> 00:05:07,139 , but then it's really cool cause you realize like, oh, you feel like you're 118 00:05:07,139 --> 00:05:10,259 not doing enough because you're just doing like one thing and you're like, 119 00:05:10,259 --> 00:05:11,969 shouldn't I be doing like 10 things? 120 00:05:11,974 --> 00:05:12,239 Like 121 00:05:12,774 --> 00:05:13,319 ? Rizel: Yeah. 122 00:05:13,319 --> 00:05:15,809 You're like, I'm used to doing this, this, this and this. 123 00:05:16,049 --> 00:05:17,939 Sometimes people are like, wow, you work a lot. 124 00:05:17,939 --> 00:05:18,989 I'm like, I don't know. 125 00:05:18,989 --> 00:05:20,669 I'm used to like the startup life. 126 00:05:20,939 --> 00:05:24,599 So , this feels like working not that much to me. 127 00:05:25,589 --> 00:05:26,099 trying to chill. 128 00:05:26,339 --> 00:05:26,639 Yeah, 129 00:05:26,879 --> 00:05:27,869 Eddie: exactly. 130 00:05:27,989 --> 00:05:28,889 That's awesome. 131 00:05:29,339 --> 00:05:30,569 Well, what do you think kind. 132 00:05:31,154 --> 00:05:33,854 You have enjoyed most about programming, right? 133 00:05:33,854 --> 00:05:36,764 You kind of went down, you know, this psychology route and 134 00:05:36,764 --> 00:05:39,194 we're like, all right, well this isn't really gonna work out. 135 00:05:39,194 --> 00:05:43,994 So you tried it work and help desk, and that didn't really click right? 136 00:05:43,994 --> 00:05:47,384 That was like, oh, I'm not kind of challenging myself enough. 137 00:05:47,769 --> 00:05:51,969 But you stuck with programming, so what is it that kind of got you to stick with it? 138 00:05:52,089 --> 00:05:52,839 Yeah, I think 139 00:05:52,839 --> 00:05:57,489 Rizel: the, the constant challenge and the ability to create has 140 00:05:57,489 --> 00:05:58,989 been really awesome for me. 141 00:05:59,199 --> 00:06:00,269 Like I loved it. 142 00:06:00,399 --> 00:06:03,579 Like I will say I loved it cuz I loved like the idea of like helping people. 143 00:06:03,579 --> 00:06:05,229 That's where I was getting my joy from. 144 00:06:05,499 --> 00:06:09,819 But I was like, I wanna do, I wish I could help people in a more proactive 145 00:06:09,819 --> 00:06:16,194 way, cuz with it sometimes it's, People like, oh, I can't open Google Chrome. 146 00:06:16,194 --> 00:06:18,624 And I'm like, did you try double clicking it? 147 00:06:18,624 --> 00:06:19,794 And they're like, wow, that works. 148 00:06:20,064 --> 00:06:25,554 So . Like, I wish I was like, I wish I could do something more proactive 149 00:06:25,764 --> 00:06:28,674 and helping people have better user experiences and stuff like that. 150 00:06:28,674 --> 00:06:33,204 And I feel like I've gotten that from programming and I think even more so 151 00:06:33,204 --> 00:06:37,974 from developer advocacy where I can like talk to other engineers and be 152 00:06:37,974 --> 00:06:39,444 like, Hey, how is it going for you? 153 00:06:39,444 --> 00:06:41,424 Or talk to open source maintainers and figure out. 154 00:06:41,729 --> 00:06:45,419 How we can make the product better for them, what struggles they're 155 00:06:45,419 --> 00:06:48,659 currently having and how I can like make their lives easier. 156 00:06:48,659 --> 00:06:54,689 So I think it's like I just have an intrinsic interest in like helping others 157 00:06:55,019 --> 00:06:57,929 and being like challenged a little bit. 158 00:06:57,934 --> 00:06:59,339 So I think that's that's where 159 00:06:59,344 --> 00:06:59,669 Eddie: it is. 160 00:06:59,674 --> 00:06:59,909 Yeah. 161 00:07:00,029 --> 00:07:00,269 Yeah. 162 00:07:00,269 --> 00:07:04,709 I definitely noticed as you were just talking, The thing you liked about 163 00:07:04,739 --> 00:07:08,579 Right doing the help desk was that you really liked helping people, and it 164 00:07:08,609 --> 00:07:11,339 instantly, in my mind, I'm like, well, it makes complete sense that you're 165 00:07:11,344 --> 00:07:12,539 a developer advocate then, right? 166 00:07:12,539 --> 00:07:14,009 Like developer relations. 167 00:07:14,009 --> 00:07:18,659 Like it is the blend of programming, technology and helping people 168 00:07:18,659 --> 00:07:20,759 together, so that's awesome. 169 00:07:20,779 --> 00:07:21,449 Exactly. 170 00:07:22,154 --> 00:07:25,844 Have you kind of always been, since you learned a program, have you always 171 00:07:25,844 --> 00:07:29,204 been doing kind of developer relations or is this more of a new thing? 172 00:07:29,474 --> 00:07:32,534 Rizel: When I hear about like what other people were doing before 173 00:07:32,534 --> 00:07:35,864 developer relations, they're like, yeah, I had a YouTube channel and all 174 00:07:35,864 --> 00:07:37,634 these blog posts and stuff like that. 175 00:07:37,934 --> 00:07:42,044 I didn't have those things, but I did help to start an organization 176 00:07:42,044 --> 00:07:45,134 called G-Code, which I guess could be considered developer 177 00:07:45,134 --> 00:07:46,934 relations like we were introducing. 178 00:07:47,019 --> 00:07:51,489 Women of color and non-binary people of color to web development. 179 00:07:51,489 --> 00:07:56,379 So like I made the curriculum, I created the slide decks, I taught, I even taught 180 00:07:56,379 --> 00:07:59,259 like other volunteer mentors how to teach. 181 00:07:59,469 --> 00:08:02,319 So that in a way was like developer advocacy. 182 00:08:02,799 --> 00:08:06,999 But it wasn't in the more traditional way that people think of it. 183 00:08:07,059 --> 00:08:07,569 Eddie: Sure. 184 00:08:07,569 --> 00:08:08,289 That's awesome. 185 00:08:08,289 --> 00:08:10,089 Cuz that was on the side, right? 186 00:08:10,089 --> 00:08:10,149 Yeah. 187 00:08:10,149 --> 00:08:13,839 So kind of before you were doing really develop advocacy in your 188 00:08:13,839 --> 00:08:17,769 day job, you started take kind of living that passion out on the side. 189 00:08:17,799 --> 00:08:18,969 Yeah, exactly. 190 00:08:18,974 --> 00:08:19,779 That's awesome. 191 00:08:19,869 --> 00:08:20,619 I love that. 192 00:08:20,619 --> 00:08:21,399 And thank you. 193 00:08:21,399 --> 00:08:24,219 Like you said, trying to Right, expand. 194 00:08:24,549 --> 00:08:25,119 Tech. 195 00:08:25,149 --> 00:08:25,389 Right. 196 00:08:25,389 --> 00:08:28,509 Making it more available and inclusive to people of color. 197 00:08:28,689 --> 00:08:29,289 I love that. 198 00:08:29,289 --> 00:08:33,099 Especially obviously that's something that you have experience with, right? 199 00:08:33,219 --> 00:08:33,279 Yeah. 200 00:08:33,279 --> 00:08:38,139 I feel like a lot of times, you know, you see a lot of good, well-intentioned 201 00:08:38,229 --> 00:08:42,399 organizations, but it's oftentimes set up by people in the establishment. 202 00:08:42,399 --> 00:08:42,669 Right? 203 00:08:42,674 --> 00:08:43,509 You might have like Yeah. 204 00:08:43,839 --> 00:08:44,769 White cis men. 205 00:08:44,889 --> 00:08:45,189 Yeah. 206 00:08:45,189 --> 00:08:48,069 And it's like, all right, we're gonna create diversity, and I love. 207 00:08:48,604 --> 00:08:50,134 That that is their goal, right? 208 00:08:50,134 --> 00:08:53,104 Like it, yeah, it's better than them not wanting to do that. 209 00:08:53,254 --> 00:08:57,694 But I also love it when people who actually have that experience, 210 00:08:57,694 --> 00:09:01,594 right, of what it's like to be a person of color in tech. 211 00:09:01,804 --> 00:09:04,534 It's much different, unfortunately. 212 00:09:04,894 --> 00:09:08,704 And so yeah, you're able to really shed light on and and help people, which is. 213 00:09:09,359 --> 00:09:13,289 Rizel: Yeah, I think that really helped me to run the program well and helped me 214 00:09:13,289 --> 00:09:18,899 to, to get really excited about the idea of empowering engineers because like I 215 00:09:18,899 --> 00:09:22,739 could relate to those students and I was like, oh, I know how it would be for you. 216 00:09:22,979 --> 00:09:24,989 And we, we did a lot of things. 217 00:09:24,994 --> 00:09:29,309 Me and, um, my colleague Bailey, we did stuff like making sure they 218 00:09:29,339 --> 00:09:32,579 had to like Uber each gift cards and stuff like that during class. 219 00:09:33,759 --> 00:09:36,939 , you know, other stuff that would meet their needs rather than 220 00:09:36,939 --> 00:09:38,589 just only thinking about coding. 221 00:09:38,709 --> 00:09:39,039 Eddie: Yeah. 222 00:09:39,044 --> 00:09:41,949 It has a more holistic approach cuz you wanna kind of understand 223 00:09:41,954 --> 00:09:44,529 the mindset and the circumstances that they might be coming from. 224 00:09:44,619 --> 00:09:44,949 Yeah. 225 00:09:45,069 --> 00:09:45,909 Well, cool. 226 00:09:46,089 --> 00:09:48,999 You know, one of the things we like to talk about on this podcast is 227 00:09:49,059 --> 00:09:52,059 something that brings us joy and so I kind of just wanted to say, 228 00:09:52,064 --> 00:09:53,289 you know, what's something that. 229 00:09:53,584 --> 00:09:56,644 you've been involved with that brings you joy that you'd like to talk about? 230 00:09:56,854 --> 00:09:57,244 Yeah. 231 00:09:57,514 --> 00:10:01,444 Rizel: Um, G Code is definitely an organization that brings me joy. 232 00:10:01,684 --> 00:10:05,705 I've moved more into an advisory role rather than the director of 233 00:10:05,710 --> 00:10:09,184 programming, which is what I was before, just because it's easier to balance. 234 00:10:09,454 --> 00:10:14,614 But one of the reasons that it brings me joy is that I am trying to. 235 00:10:15,494 --> 00:10:19,364 That person that I wished was there for me when I was learning 236 00:10:19,364 --> 00:10:24,554 to code and like learning to, to navigate the tech industry. 237 00:10:24,554 --> 00:10:28,724 I feel like, like you said, like as a person of color, as a black 238 00:10:28,724 --> 00:10:32,414 person specifically, it's a much different experience that a lot 239 00:10:32,419 --> 00:10:33,524 of people aren't educated on. 240 00:10:34,149 --> 00:10:38,139 I really like being able to help them and I really love when they 241 00:10:38,139 --> 00:10:41,289 come back and they do tell me, like, that was really helpful for me. 242 00:10:41,289 --> 00:10:44,949 I really like, enjoyed the classes, gonna miss you, stuff like that. 243 00:10:44,954 --> 00:10:47,139 Or they come back and tell me they landed a job. 244 00:10:47,499 --> 00:10:51,099 Um, like those are the type of things that I appreciate and get excited about. 245 00:10:51,309 --> 00:10:51,559 What does 246 00:10:51,854 --> 00:10:54,609 Eddie: the kind of pro program. 247 00:10:54,979 --> 00:10:56,429 What kind of look like and feel like. 248 00:10:56,759 --> 00:11:01,799 Rizel: It's not a long-term like coding bootcamp, so what we do is like we start 249 00:11:01,799 --> 00:11:04,889 off by, I think we meet on Sundays. 250 00:11:05,069 --> 00:11:05,429 Yeah. 251 00:11:05,759 --> 00:11:09,539 I don't know if they changed it since now I'm in advisory role, but when I was doing 252 00:11:09,544 --> 00:11:14,339 it, we met on Sundays and it would just be like six to 10 Sundays and we did Sundays 253 00:11:14,339 --> 00:11:16,409 because it would be easier for them to. 254 00:11:17,004 --> 00:11:20,754 Like be cutting off their work schedule and stuff like that. 255 00:11:20,994 --> 00:11:22,674 It was more flexible for the students. 256 00:11:22,674 --> 00:11:26,934 So we meet on Sundays and we will go over like H T M L, CSS and 257 00:11:26,934 --> 00:11:28,884 JavaScript and that would be it. 258 00:11:28,889 --> 00:11:33,744 After that, we would move them on to like another longer term program that 259 00:11:33,744 --> 00:11:37,374 we have like partnership with or we know is free, like Code the Dream or launch. 260 00:11:38,054 --> 00:11:42,944 And I think the, the way I structured it really well, like I don't go 261 00:11:42,944 --> 00:11:45,374 faster than they would understand. 262 00:11:45,374 --> 00:11:48,104 So if they're like, Hey, I don't get this, like, we will do another 263 00:11:48,104 --> 00:11:52,064 day of like learning that concept over and in different ways. 264 00:11:52,064 --> 00:11:56,734 I make sure that like we're not just learn focused on one learning style. 265 00:11:57,454 --> 00:12:02,559 , I believe that people learn from like repetition, so I'll do it in like visuals. 266 00:12:02,559 --> 00:12:07,239 I'll do it by them doing hands on and I'll do it by them like hearing 267 00:12:07,239 --> 00:12:12,429 it so they'll get all like all three or all the possible options. 268 00:12:12,699 --> 00:12:16,569 And then of course we try to make sure there is like holistic approach 269 00:12:16,574 --> 00:12:19,059 as well and we'll have like game nights and stuff like that for them 270 00:12:19,059 --> 00:12:20,109 to get connect with each other. 271 00:12:20,319 --> 00:12:21,459 That's, that's kind of how it is. 272 00:12:21,519 --> 00:12:22,059 Eddie: Awesome. 273 00:12:22,059 --> 00:12:23,739 No, that sounds great and I love. 274 00:12:24,469 --> 00:12:25,909 You're not trying to tackle everything, right? 275 00:12:25,909 --> 00:12:29,029 You're no doing a strategic starting point, and then you've built 276 00:12:29,029 --> 00:12:33,499 partnerships to say, Hey, like this can kind of help carry you through. 277 00:12:33,709 --> 00:12:35,479 That's really well, well thought out. 278 00:12:36,019 --> 00:12:36,319 I guess. 279 00:12:36,319 --> 00:12:39,619 What challenges do you feel like exist, right? 280 00:12:39,619 --> 00:12:41,119 When people are getting into tech, right? 281 00:12:41,119 --> 00:12:44,629 You got into tech, you're helping all these people get into tech. 282 00:12:44,959 --> 00:12:47,719 What kind of things kind of have you. 283 00:12:48,229 --> 00:12:51,259 Encountered or have you seen people encounter that make it difficult? 284 00:12:51,469 --> 00:12:51,979 Yeah, 285 00:12:52,039 --> 00:12:52,819 Rizel: there's a lot. 286 00:12:52,819 --> 00:12:57,109 I think one of the things is like quote unquote imposter syndrome. 287 00:12:57,139 --> 00:13:01,489 I say the quotes because a lot of times it's not really that the person has 288 00:13:01,489 --> 00:13:05,539 imposter syndrome, or maybe they have a little bit, but a lot of times it's 289 00:13:05,539 --> 00:13:09,049 like other people telling them things. 290 00:13:09,049 --> 00:13:12,199 Like that's what I experienced at least, and I've talked to. 291 00:13:12,879 --> 00:13:16,149 Underrepresented minorities, and they said like, yes, they agree. 292 00:13:16,149 --> 00:13:20,139 Like a lot of times you'll be like, at least I went in and I was 293 00:13:20,139 --> 00:13:23,139 like, okay, maybe I don't know any everything, and I'm a little bit 294 00:13:23,139 --> 00:13:24,909 nervous, but I'm willing to learn. 295 00:13:25,209 --> 00:13:29,019 But then you may meet with some in tech. 296 00:13:29,019 --> 00:13:30,979 Sometimes we wanna seem like we know it all. 297 00:13:31,519 --> 00:13:35,869 So you might have coworkers who they may speak to you in a more 298 00:13:35,869 --> 00:13:39,979 condescending tone or say things like, oh, I would've expected you would 299 00:13:39,984 --> 00:13:41,599 know this, or something like that. 300 00:13:41,869 --> 00:13:47,179 And I think that kind of stuff starts to create imposter syndrome in somebody else. 301 00:13:47,419 --> 00:13:50,719 Or they might even tell you, oh, you just have imposter syndrome, and 302 00:13:50,719 --> 00:13:54,589 I'm just like, no, you are making that person feel bad and you're not 303 00:13:54,589 --> 00:13:58,699 creating inclusive environment for them to feel confident with learning. 304 00:13:59,069 --> 00:14:01,709 So I think that's like a big issue that does happen. 305 00:14:01,829 --> 00:14:02,369 Eddie: Yeah. 306 00:14:02,459 --> 00:14:06,509 I love that call out because I think for plenty of people, like imposter syndrome 307 00:14:06,509 --> 00:14:12,839 is real, but it has to be separated from the actual act of someone making someone 308 00:14:12,839 --> 00:14:15,839 feel unwelcome and feel like an imposter. 309 00:14:16,169 --> 00:14:18,119 And I think that is dangerous, right? 310 00:14:18,119 --> 00:14:21,089 If we just always kind of cloak it as, oh, that's imposter syndrome, 311 00:14:21,089 --> 00:14:22,469 you're just feeling like an imposter. 312 00:14:22,469 --> 00:14:25,259 Like, well, no, there's an environment that's making you 313 00:14:25,259 --> 00:14:27,569 feel that way and exactly. 314 00:14:27,819 --> 00:14:31,329 You can self-talk all you want, but if someone keeps saying 315 00:14:31,539 --> 00:14:35,229 You don't know that, then like you're never gonna get over that. 316 00:14:35,229 --> 00:14:36,189 Like you have to change. 317 00:14:36,309 --> 00:14:36,429 Yeah. 318 00:14:36,429 --> 00:14:41,469 The environment has to change and be more welcoming and inclusive to allow 319 00:14:41,469 --> 00:14:44,919 that self-talk, to be able to kind of put it to the sides, you know? 320 00:14:45,039 --> 00:14:45,429 Yeah. 321 00:14:45,434 --> 00:14:46,059 You said it 322 00:14:46,089 --> 00:14:47,559 Rizel: really, really perfectly. 323 00:14:47,739 --> 00:14:47,979 Aw 324 00:14:48,879 --> 00:14:49,149 . Eddie: Thanks. 325 00:14:49,629 --> 00:14:50,229 That's really great. 326 00:14:50,229 --> 00:14:51,159 I think that's one thing. 327 00:14:52,004 --> 00:14:55,574 I really have appreciated about tech Twitter lately, although 328 00:14:55,604 --> 00:14:58,604 there's definitely areas of tech Twitter that can go off the rails. 329 00:14:59,114 --> 00:15:00,494 Environments can be what they can be. 330 00:15:00,704 --> 00:15:01,034 Yeah. 331 00:15:01,154 --> 00:15:04,814 But I know when I really got into tech, like no one was really willing 332 00:15:04,814 --> 00:15:10,814 to share what kind of issues they ran into or what challenges they ran into. 333 00:15:10,814 --> 00:15:12,644 And so I do think as. 334 00:15:13,419 --> 00:15:17,259 Unfortunately, people in this industry who are going to kind of talk down and 335 00:15:17,259 --> 00:15:22,659 kind of gate keep, you know, and try to keep it be like an elite class of 336 00:15:22,659 --> 00:15:27,489 like programmers or whatever, whatever nonsense they're trying to pedal, at 337 00:15:27,489 --> 00:15:30,519 least like in the community and like Twitter and different things like that. 338 00:15:30,519 --> 00:15:32,219 We do have a number of people who. 339 00:15:33,029 --> 00:15:34,529 Can kind of shed light on that. 340 00:15:34,529 --> 00:15:34,769 Right. 341 00:15:34,769 --> 00:15:35,519 And we have, yeah. 342 00:15:35,819 --> 00:15:40,679 Communities like the G Code House that can help prepare and say, Hey listen, 343 00:15:40,859 --> 00:15:44,789 here's some things you're gonna run into and find people who build you up. 344 00:15:44,789 --> 00:15:47,459 Find people who invest in you rather than just tear you down. 345 00:15:47,639 --> 00:15:48,419 Yes, I 346 00:15:48,419 --> 00:15:50,429 Rizel: love tech Twitter for that reason. 347 00:15:50,669 --> 00:15:53,309 When I was having a tough time in tech, it was definitely. 348 00:15:53,824 --> 00:15:57,904 My, my go-to and I've found that like similar to what you said about 349 00:15:57,904 --> 00:16:03,394 communities, I've found that finding community helps to like reduce 350 00:16:03,394 --> 00:16:05,134 those feelings of imposter syndrome. 351 00:16:05,134 --> 00:16:08,284 Cuz like that's, that's the main thing behind imposter syndrome 352 00:16:08,284 --> 00:16:11,314 is that you feel like you are the only one and you don't belong. 353 00:16:11,554 --> 00:16:15,854 So once you find those, those communities, whether it be online, You, 354 00:16:15,854 --> 00:16:17,594 you have a group of people in person. 355 00:16:17,594 --> 00:16:21,884 I really do feel like that can help to reduce the The negative experience. 356 00:16:22,154 --> 00:16:23,024 Eddie: Absolutely. 357 00:16:23,114 --> 00:16:23,474 Right. 358 00:16:23,474 --> 00:16:28,514 Especially cuz like when people are actively hearing like those statements 359 00:16:28,514 --> 00:16:32,144 and then you log on Twitter and you see people at prominent companies, right? 360 00:16:32,149 --> 00:16:35,324 Like I follow someone who works at Netflix, right? 361 00:16:35,324 --> 00:16:38,654 And then of course, yeah, you work at GitHub and like when people at these 362 00:16:38,654 --> 00:16:40,364 more well-known companies are willing to. 363 00:16:41,069 --> 00:16:44,189 Open and transparent and say, Hey, here's what people have told me. 364 00:16:44,459 --> 00:16:48,239 And like people are actively, like they'll tweet things and 365 00:16:48,239 --> 00:16:49,529 then they'll be like, oh, okay. 366 00:16:49,534 --> 00:16:51,449 Everyone's coming out and saying, I don't know how to do this. 367 00:16:51,449 --> 00:16:52,829 Like, I think I know how to do it. 368 00:16:52,829 --> 00:16:53,939 I work at Netflix. 369 00:16:53,969 --> 00:16:54,329 You know? 370 00:16:54,329 --> 00:16:57,569 And it's like, yeah, showing that even when someone is successful, like 371 00:16:57,569 --> 00:16:59,339 people are still gonna kind of try to. 372 00:16:59,714 --> 00:17:00,554 Gate, keep them like 373 00:17:01,274 --> 00:17:01,604 . Rizel: Yeah. 374 00:17:01,604 --> 00:17:02,714 You brought up a good point, 375 00:17:03,464 --> 00:17:08,024 . Eddie: So I guess what other things have you run into while kind of being 376 00:17:08,024 --> 00:17:10,214 in tech that you found challenging? 377 00:17:10,514 --> 00:17:10,844 I mean, 378 00:17:10,844 --> 00:17:14,714 Rizel: in addition to maybe companies or coworkers not being as welcoming. 379 00:17:14,984 --> 00:17:16,574 I think sometimes hustle culture. 380 00:17:17,154 --> 00:17:21,804 Can make it challenging too because you never know or you, you're not 381 00:17:21,804 --> 00:17:25,674 sure like, am I doing enough work or you're feeling pressured to do more? 382 00:17:25,674 --> 00:17:29,424 And that that like leads to burnout and that leads to people wanting to quit. 383 00:17:29,724 --> 00:17:34,134 So yeah, that's been another main issue that I've seen pop up. 384 00:17:34,224 --> 00:17:34,434 That 385 00:17:34,434 --> 00:17:35,664 Eddie: makes sense for sure. 386 00:17:36,044 --> 00:17:39,644 Yeah, I think it's interesting cuz that's kind of tied in with like how 387 00:17:39,644 --> 00:17:41,354 people do performance reviews, right? 388 00:17:41,354 --> 00:17:45,914 And like how their manager engages with them and it's like, okay, oftentimes 389 00:17:45,914 --> 00:17:49,874 managers can kind of be hands off and just let you do what you do. 390 00:17:50,264 --> 00:17:53,474 And so you're constantly kind of wondering like, where do I stand with this person? 391 00:17:53,479 --> 00:17:55,814 And it's like, yeah, finally once a year, right? 392 00:17:55,814 --> 00:17:56,564 They like give you. 393 00:17:57,159 --> 00:18:00,699 Satisfactory label and you're like, oh, few I made it another year. 394 00:18:00,699 --> 00:18:01,029 Right? 395 00:18:01,029 --> 00:18:02,289 Like . Yeah. 396 00:18:03,279 --> 00:18:08,409 Rizel: That is how it can be , I feel like on both sides, like the company and 397 00:18:08,409 --> 00:18:12,489 the, the worker or the employee, I don't know what to call them, but the developer. 398 00:18:12,489 --> 00:18:12,549 Yeah. 399 00:18:12,849 --> 00:18:15,969 Um, , I think there can be improvements made. 400 00:18:15,969 --> 00:18:17,619 I think we need to. 401 00:18:18,389 --> 00:18:20,369 Change how we're doing mentorship. 402 00:18:20,374 --> 00:18:24,599 I feel like tons of times that people have been like, oh, this is your mentor. 403 00:18:24,599 --> 00:18:28,289 And then like I've, I've never talked to them beyond like one time 404 00:18:28,289 --> 00:18:30,059 like, oh, hey, you're my mentor. 405 00:18:30,064 --> 00:18:32,609 And then they just like don't, I don't know, like when you 406 00:18:32,609 --> 00:18:35,069 have like an onboarding buddy at GitHub, that hasn't happened. 407 00:18:35,069 --> 00:18:38,129 But at like past companies, it's been like, oh, this is your onboarding bunny. 408 00:18:38,129 --> 00:18:38,749 And then they. 409 00:18:39,129 --> 00:18:41,919 never do anything, or I reach out and ask a question, no 410 00:18:41,919 --> 00:18:43,479 answer questions are answered. 411 00:18:43,659 --> 00:18:47,019 And I think, uh, that's not like, uh, only me situation. 412 00:18:47,019 --> 00:18:50,169 So like, yeah, revamping how we're doing mentorship and like how 413 00:18:50,169 --> 00:18:53,499 you said where you may not know, where you stand with your manager. 414 00:18:53,649 --> 00:18:58,209 Figuring out like a communication plan of like how does your manager want to best 415 00:18:58,239 --> 00:19:01,899 be communicated with, and then versus like, how do you wanna be communicated 416 00:19:01,899 --> 00:19:03,939 with, it's just there's a lot. 417 00:19:04,639 --> 00:19:08,599 Things that I think we can do better, especially for either like junior 418 00:19:08,599 --> 00:19:14,059 engineers or people from underrepresented backgrounds, cuz I think those are, at 419 00:19:14,064 --> 00:19:17,989 least for me, those are the people that I've spoken to that often leave the 420 00:19:17,989 --> 00:19:21,709 industry, whereas they were initially excited and then they get discouraged. 421 00:19:22,529 --> 00:19:27,719 Eddie: Yeah, because I think right when you are encountering more an additional 422 00:19:27,719 --> 00:19:32,219 blockers, right, like the industry is, is hard enough to kind of break into, right? 423 00:19:32,219 --> 00:19:37,109 And even if you fit the mold, and I am in the fortunate place that 424 00:19:37,109 --> 00:19:39,389 no one's ever looked at me and said, oh, you don't know that. 425 00:19:39,394 --> 00:19:41,699 And it's probably just because of assumptions, right? 426 00:19:41,699 --> 00:19:43,139 The biases and assumptions. 427 00:19:43,379 --> 00:19:45,419 Someone looks at me and I've got glasses and. 428 00:19:45,869 --> 00:19:49,679 I'm white and I'm a dude, and you know, like I kind of fit, like, someone's 429 00:19:49,679 --> 00:19:50,669 like, oh yeah, there's a nerd. 430 00:19:50,699 --> 00:19:51,149 All right. 431 00:19:51,149 --> 00:19:53,789 Like he knows how to program, you know, like . Yeah. 432 00:19:54,089 --> 00:19:59,729 I can say gibberish and like unfortunately that bias works in my favor. 433 00:19:59,729 --> 00:20:00,089 Right? 434 00:20:00,094 --> 00:20:04,979 But, and yet even in that where like I have this systemic kind 435 00:20:04,979 --> 00:20:09,449 of help and support, I still have run into blockers myself, right? 436 00:20:09,449 --> 00:20:09,959 Like, yeah. 437 00:20:09,959 --> 00:20:15,704 And so it's like, Even people who have a pretty smooth path can run into blockers. 438 00:20:15,704 --> 00:20:18,464 Like that's just gonna pile up right on. 439 00:20:18,464 --> 00:20:22,754 People who have kind of systemic issues pushing against them and making 440 00:20:22,759 --> 00:20:25,064 it harder with biases and stuff. 441 00:20:25,064 --> 00:20:29,684 And so I definitely can see how that would lead to faster burnout, right? 442 00:20:29,689 --> 00:20:33,014 Because it's like if you have that feeling of you shouldn't belong, 443 00:20:33,014 --> 00:20:34,724 you're gonna work harder hours, right? 444 00:20:34,724 --> 00:20:37,424 Because you're gonna feel like you're behind everyone else and. 445 00:20:37,884 --> 00:20:42,654 If you don't feel steady in your job, you might not feel as confident to. 446 00:20:43,514 --> 00:20:44,894 Push back to your manager, right. 447 00:20:44,894 --> 00:20:45,524 And ask. 448 00:20:45,524 --> 00:20:45,584 Yeah. 449 00:20:45,584 --> 00:20:46,844 And like really probe. 450 00:20:47,234 --> 00:20:51,284 And so I think in that way it's, if you're listening and you're in that situation, 451 00:20:51,284 --> 00:20:52,844 like kind of like we talked about, right? 452 00:20:52,844 --> 00:20:55,244 Find community, find people who can say, Hey, here's what 453 00:20:55,244 --> 00:20:56,834 I said, here's what I did. 454 00:20:57,104 --> 00:21:00,914 Um, to kind of encourage you like how you can push back and how you can 455 00:21:00,914 --> 00:21:04,514 kind of take control of the situation, even if say your manager isn't, yeah. 456 00:21:04,574 --> 00:21:06,314 So that's, that's definitely good. 457 00:21:06,314 --> 00:21:07,574 And yeah, and hopefully. 458 00:21:08,324 --> 00:21:10,604 As we continue to, to push and change right? 459 00:21:11,084 --> 00:21:15,014 Our companies and like we get my more diversity in our companies. 460 00:21:15,194 --> 00:21:20,114 Like we'll have managers who have gone these paths and understood right, these 461 00:21:20,114 --> 00:21:25,544 roadblocks and people, right, like me, who are on the journey to learning roadblocks, 462 00:21:25,724 --> 00:21:30,374 everyone is encountering, like hopefully we can continue to make changes inside 463 00:21:30,374 --> 00:21:32,234 that, um, make things more welcoming. 464 00:21:32,624 --> 00:21:36,084 Rizel: I definitely see us taking that, that path we're getting. 465 00:21:36,594 --> 00:21:39,924 So I don't want it to seem all negative, but I like to be transparent about 466 00:21:39,924 --> 00:21:44,304 this so that if there's other people who are, like you said, like not sure 467 00:21:44,304 --> 00:21:47,844 if they should stay in tech, I want them to know like if this is a common 468 00:21:48,114 --> 00:21:50,334 occurrence or experience and there's ways 469 00:21:50,334 --> 00:21:50,784 Eddie: around it. 470 00:21:51,114 --> 00:21:51,384 Yeah. 471 00:21:51,384 --> 00:21:51,594 You're. 472 00:21:51,669 --> 00:21:52,839 You're not alone. 473 00:21:53,049 --> 00:21:53,949 Reach out to people. 474 00:21:53,954 --> 00:21:55,299 Twitter is a great place. 475 00:21:55,359 --> 00:21:57,999 But, um, there's also, you know, all sorts of communities. 476 00:21:57,999 --> 00:22:00,219 There's actually been a lot of different communities that have 477 00:22:00,219 --> 00:22:01,929 been mentioned on previous episodes. 478 00:22:01,929 --> 00:22:05,229 So like you can go back through our archives and listen, I'm trying to 479 00:22:05,234 --> 00:22:08,709 get together a website that will actually like list all the cool 480 00:22:08,714 --> 00:22:11,409 communities and different things that people have experienced. 481 00:22:11,414 --> 00:22:15,189 So you can look at the, the podcast website and when you're listening to 482 00:22:15,189 --> 00:22:17,029 this, see if I've actually released it or. 483 00:22:17,374 --> 00:22:22,864 Hopefully by the time this gets released, I've, I've updated the website, , . But 484 00:22:22,864 --> 00:22:26,524 yeah, find there's all sorts of, uh, communities, so kinda look back and, 485 00:22:26,554 --> 00:22:29,854 and find different communities people have recommended and yeah, get plugged 486 00:22:29,859 --> 00:22:32,174 in where people can encourage you and, and help you know which way to go. 487 00:22:32,729 --> 00:22:36,179 So Raelle is there, I guess if someone wanted to get involved in the 488 00:22:36,179 --> 00:22:38,519 G Code house, what should they do? 489 00:22:38,789 --> 00:22:43,979 Rizel: Yeah, you can go ahead and follow G Code House on Twitter at G Code House 490 00:22:43,979 --> 00:22:48,239 and then on, um, you can check out their website at the g code house.com. 491 00:22:48,614 --> 00:22:52,514 . There is an option where it says like, join us or get 492 00:22:52,514 --> 00:22:53,744 involved, or something like that. 493 00:22:53,744 --> 00:22:56,894 I don't remember, but that's where you would go if you wanted to volunteer 494 00:22:56,894 --> 00:22:59,354 and if you wanted to be a student, there's like an apply section. 495 00:22:59,624 --> 00:23:00,614 Eddie: Well, that sounds great. 496 00:23:01,214 --> 00:23:03,044 Raelle, thank you so much for joining us today. 497 00:23:03,044 --> 00:23:06,854 It's been just a pleasure of chatting, getting to know you and your story 498 00:23:06,974 --> 00:23:08,474 and just hearing about how you. 499 00:23:08,629 --> 00:23:12,169 I like to encourage people to just keep pushing through when the times get 500 00:23:12,169 --> 00:23:12,529 Rizel: tough. 501 00:23:12,709 --> 00:23:13,129 Thanks. 502 00:23:13,129 --> 00:23:14,659 It was great talking to you as well. 503 00:23:14,779 --> 00:23:16,279 I really enjoyed this conversation. 504 00:23:16,369 --> 00:23:17,059 Awesome. 505 00:23:17,870 --> 00:23:20,600 Eddie: Thank you for joining us for episode 31. 506 00:23:20,990 --> 00:23:23,240 Trying to be that person I wished was there. 507 00:23:23,270 --> 00:23:27,620 When I was learning to code with Rozelle Scarlet, you can find out more about 508 00:23:27,620 --> 00:23:30,890 resil on her Twitter at black girl bites. 509 00:23:31,220 --> 00:23:35,480 You can find links to everything we talked about in this episode, as well as a link 510 00:23:35,510 --> 00:23:37,310 to results Twitter in the show notes. 511 00:23:37,910 --> 00:23:41,270 And if you enjoyed this episode, help others discover it as well. 512 00:23:41,630 --> 00:23:45,860 Give us a shout out on your favorite social media platform and tag a friend or 513 00:23:45,890 --> 00:23:47,870 coworker that you think would enjoy it. 514 00:23:48,440 --> 00:23:52,940 Don't forget to follow us wherever you hang out online or subscribe to 515 00:23:52,970 --> 00:23:54,770 our newsletter to stay up to date. 516 00:23:55,310 --> 00:23:58,220 Thank you for listening and have a great day.