The connection between the between
the individual
2
00:00:03,378 --> 00:00:08,717
and the redeemed community
is not intrinsic, as it was among American
3
00:00:08,717 --> 00:00:12,429
Mennonites in the 18th and early 19th
century and, of course, early Anabaptists,
4
00:00:12,679 --> 00:00:14,556
as it is in the German Awakening.
5
00:00:14,556 --> 00:00:16,850
But this German awakening
gave rise to new groups
6
00:00:16,850 --> 00:00:20,145
like the United Brethren, like
the Evangelical Association and so on.
7
00:00:20,729 --> 00:00:23,606
And it's these groups that began to make
8
00:00:23,606 --> 00:00:26,568
an impact on Mennonite communities
9
00:00:26,818 --> 00:00:30,071
as they try to woo their young people away
10
00:00:30,071 --> 00:00:34,325
from their communities
into into this new community and so on.
11
00:00:34,576 --> 00:00:37,996
And that's what Christian Burkholder
is writing against.
12
00:00:44,085 --> 00:00:47,088
Welcome to Anabaptist perspectives.
13
00:00:47,255 --> 00:00:50,050
We are here to discuss
theological concerns
14
00:00:50,050 --> 00:00:54,512
of Mennonites in America
from 1730 to 1930.
15
00:00:55,263 --> 00:00:57,432
Our guest is Edsel Burdge.
16
00:00:57,432 --> 00:00:59,309
So welcome, Edsel.
17
00:00:59,309 --> 00:01:01,478
Can you introduce
yourself to our audience?
18
00:01:02,562 --> 00:01:04,439
Yes. My name is Edsel Burdge
19
00:01:04,439 --> 00:01:08,818
Jr and I live in Shippensburg,
Pennsylvania.
20
00:01:09,444 --> 00:01:12,697
And I married my wife, Jennifer,
and I've been married for,
21
00:01:14,282 --> 00:01:16,659
42 years, and I have six children.
22
00:01:16,659 --> 00:01:21,039
My oldest is, as, is teaching at Faith
Builders.
23
00:01:21,039 --> 00:01:23,124
My youngest lives in Hagerstown.
24
00:01:23,124 --> 00:01:25,126
And I have four,
and those are both girls.
25
00:01:25,126 --> 00:01:26,419
And I have four boys in between.
26
00:01:26,419 --> 00:01:28,963
And I also have seven grandchildren.
27
00:01:28,963 --> 00:01:33,134
All right, so there's the familial, data
out of the way.
28
00:01:33,343 --> 00:01:37,180
I'm a member of Shippensburg
Christian Fellowship, an unaffiliated,
29
00:01:37,180 --> 00:01:42,393
conservative Mennonite congregation here
in, Franklin County.
30
00:01:43,186 --> 00:01:46,648
I did not grow up in a Mennonite home.
31
00:01:47,273 --> 00:01:50,485
I started attending
a Mennonite church, was 15 years
32
00:01:50,485 --> 00:01:54,072
old, and was baptized
and joined the church when I was 17.
33
00:01:54,531 --> 00:01:57,534
And I have been,
34
00:01:57,784 --> 00:02:00,787
part of a Mennonite congregation
ever since.
35
00:02:01,246 --> 00:02:06,042
I attended Eastern Mennonite College
graduated with a B.A.
36
00:02:06,042 --> 00:02:07,460
in history there.
37
00:02:07,460 --> 00:02:11,798
I also, got a master's degree in history
from Villanova University.
38
00:02:12,132 --> 00:02:14,217
I taught school for 12 years.
39
00:02:14,217 --> 00:02:17,220
I worked on a number of research
and writing projects,
40
00:02:17,595 --> 00:02:21,015
and in 2012,
I started working at the Young Center
41
00:02:21,432 --> 00:02:25,186
for Anabaptist and Pietist Studies
at Elizabethtown College.
42
00:02:25,186 --> 00:02:29,315
And one of my primary duties
there is tracking statistical data
43
00:02:29,315 --> 00:02:32,318
for various pain groups,
particularly the Amish.
44
00:02:32,443 --> 00:02:34,362
When people ask me,
what do I do for a living?
45
00:02:34,362 --> 00:02:37,782
And I, somewhat jokingly
tell them, I count Amish.
46
00:02:37,866 --> 00:02:41,536
And, it's sort of a joke,
but it's actually not a joke because it
47
00:02:41,536 --> 00:02:43,329
is actually what I do.
48
00:02:44,706 --> 00:02:47,584
And I've been interested in Mennonite,
Anabaptist,
49
00:02:47,584 --> 00:02:51,963
Anabaptist, Mennonite history, really,
since my college years.
50
00:02:52,088 --> 00:02:54,966
One of the I wrote, co-wrote
51
00:02:54,966 --> 00:02:59,179
a coauthored a book on called building
on the Gospel Foundation.
52
00:02:59,721 --> 00:03:02,182
The Mennonites of Franklin County,
Pennsylvania,
53
00:03:02,182 --> 00:03:05,685
Washington County, Maryland, 1730 to 1970.
54
00:03:06,227 --> 00:03:10,940
And that's part of these studies in
Anabaptist and Mennonite history series.
55
00:03:11,941 --> 00:03:16,779
I also helped to edit the third volume
of documents of Brotherly Love,
56
00:03:16,779 --> 00:03:19,782
Dutch Mennonite Aid to Swiss Anabaptist
57
00:03:19,908 --> 00:03:22,869
which came out in 2023.
58
00:03:22,994 --> 00:03:27,123
Currently
I'm involved in another project, new
59
00:03:27,123 --> 00:03:31,753
translation of the Martyrs Mirror, and I'm
on the editorial committee for that.
60
00:03:31,753 --> 00:03:35,423
And my primary task
there is to write the footnotes.
61
00:03:36,216 --> 00:03:39,802
So does that cover the bases?
62
00:03:40,929 --> 00:03:41,387
Certainly.
63
00:03:41,387 --> 00:03:43,514
So thank you for that introduction.
64
00:03:44,641 --> 00:03:47,644
In 2024, how many Amish are there?
65
00:03:48,311 --> 00:03:50,897
Almost, over 400,000.
66
00:03:50,897 --> 00:03:53,900
That includes members and unbaptized
children.
67
00:03:54,400 --> 00:03:54,609
Yeah.
68
00:03:54,609 --> 00:03:58,696
And they are located,
primarily United States, some in Canada,
69
00:03:59,030 --> 00:04:01,991
and a very small group in, Bolivia.
70
00:04:03,409 --> 00:04:05,828
So that's I mean, that's not
that does not include,
71
00:04:05,828 --> 00:04:09,791
like the various Amish Mennonite groups
or any of the car driving groups.
72
00:04:09,791 --> 00:04:13,753
And of course, that also doesn't include
the horse and buggy Old Order Mennonites.
73
00:04:15,755 --> 00:04:16,923
Horse and buggy.
74
00:04:16,923 --> 00:04:21,803
Older Mennonites are probably around
40,000, various conservative Mennonites
75
00:04:21,844 --> 00:04:24,847
and Amish Mennonites,
probably around 75,000.
76
00:04:25,431 --> 00:04:28,935
So that kind of gives you
and of course, all those
77
00:04:29,435 --> 00:04:32,897
all those groups
would have come out of the,
78
00:04:33,314 --> 00:04:37,277
Swiss Brethren tradition
that started in Switzerland.
79
00:04:37,277 --> 00:04:41,197
And as people moved in, the Palatinate,
of course, migrated to North America
80
00:04:41,197 --> 00:04:42,365
at various points.
81
00:04:42,365 --> 00:04:46,744
Many in the 18th century, some later on
in the in the early 19th century.
82
00:04:47,245 --> 00:04:51,582
But they all have that, Swiss background
as opposed to,
83
00:04:51,958 --> 00:04:55,086
what we colloquially refer to
as the Russian Mennonites
84
00:04:55,086 --> 00:04:59,799
who actually have a Dutch Mennonite
background by way of Prussia,
85
00:04:59,799 --> 00:05:04,470
and then to and to then to Russia
and then finally to North America.
86
00:05:04,470 --> 00:05:05,346
Here.
87
00:05:05,346 --> 00:05:08,558
So, so what I have focused
88
00:05:08,558 --> 00:05:12,061
on, is mainly groups that have this
89
00:05:12,061 --> 00:05:15,315
Swiss Palatinate background
90
00:05:15,481 --> 00:05:18,568
rather than the Dutch Russian background.
91
00:05:19,402 --> 00:05:20,820
Yeah. And that's.
92
00:05:20,820 --> 00:05:25,199
That's the stream or the tradition
that we are here to talk about today.
93
00:05:25,742 --> 00:05:31,372
Specifically from 1730 to 1930,
are the parameters that we are setting.
94
00:05:32,123 --> 00:05:36,377
And by setting those
that may seem a bit arbitrary,
95
00:05:36,377 --> 00:05:39,797
but what I was aiming to
catch was the range.
96
00:05:40,173 --> 00:05:44,093
Soon after Mennonites arrived in America.
97
00:05:44,510 --> 00:05:49,974
Until the point where
now living memory is very much fading.
98
00:05:51,142 --> 00:05:52,101
So by setting at the
99
00:05:52,101 --> 00:05:55,772
beginning of our range in 1730,
we are only 11 years
100
00:05:56,397 --> 00:05:59,400
after the construction
of the Hanser house,
101
00:05:59,984 --> 00:06:03,112
and we're between the time that
Christopher Doc settled in Pennsylvania
102
00:06:03,613 --> 00:06:06,616
and he wrote his book
on school management.
103
00:06:07,283 --> 00:06:09,619
So in 1730, America
104
00:06:09,619 --> 00:06:12,622
was still somewhat fresh for Mennonites.
105
00:06:12,955 --> 00:06:16,167
And the end of our range being 1930.
106
00:06:17,543 --> 00:06:19,796
This is the year that John F funk died,
107
00:06:19,796 --> 00:06:23,299
and two years after Daniel Kaufman
published doctrines of the Bible.
108
00:06:24,217 --> 00:06:26,302
And it's also at the edge
of living memory.
109
00:06:26,302 --> 00:06:31,974
Few of us are still old enough
to remember the times before 1930.
110
00:06:32,600 --> 00:06:35,061
Well,
I think that even people born in 1930
111
00:06:35,061 --> 00:06:37,397
would be scarcely able to remember it.
112
00:06:37,397 --> 00:06:41,943
I mean, you're you're talking
about people now in their upper 90s,
113
00:06:41,943 --> 00:06:46,322
and I suppose a few souls are still around
in their hundreds and so on,
114
00:06:46,322 --> 00:06:48,866
but they would have been children
during that era.
115
00:06:48,866 --> 00:06:53,162
It is interesting to note, however, that,
you know, within my living memory,
116
00:06:53,538 --> 00:06:58,709
I was able to talk to people,
and at various points
117
00:06:58,709 --> 00:07:03,256
in my research who lived in the 1890s,
who I mean, who were born in the 1890s
118
00:07:03,631 --> 00:07:08,886
and they did have, memories of the latter
end of this period we're talking about.
119
00:07:09,220 --> 00:07:12,098
Those interviews
were always very interesting.
120
00:07:12,098 --> 00:07:16,727
So, yeah, so, in a sense,
you know, if, if we had
121
00:07:16,978 --> 00:07:21,232
if we had talked to the generation before,
that's now has passed off the scene
122
00:07:21,566 --> 00:07:24,402
and so on, there is sort of a connection
there.
123
00:07:24,402 --> 00:07:29,532
That we can, you know,
can could have made if we, if we made it.
124
00:07:30,116 --> 00:07:35,663
technically speaking, the, first
Mennonite to arrive in North America
125
00:07:35,663 --> 00:07:39,125
in Pennsylvania was in 1683,
a man by the name of
126
00:07:39,125 --> 00:07:42,170
John Linson, a, weaver.
127
00:07:42,628 --> 00:07:45,256
He was one of,
128
00:07:45,256 --> 00:07:49,302
13 families from northern Germany.
129
00:07:49,302 --> 00:07:51,053
The Crow Field area.
130
00:07:52,805 --> 00:07:55,975
And,
most of the rest of them were Quaker.
131
00:07:56,392 --> 00:07:59,854
Some of them had been raised Mennonite,
132
00:07:59,854 --> 00:08:02,982
but had, left the Mennonite church
to become Quakers.
133
00:08:03,357 --> 00:08:06,360
And so we have this one lonely
little person.
134
00:08:06,486 --> 00:08:08,988
We're not even sure
if his wife was still living.
135
00:08:08,988 --> 00:08:14,494
He there's a record of him being married
and in, in Europe and,
136
00:08:14,911 --> 00:08:18,164
and so on, but no reference
relate to his wife here
137
00:08:18,164 --> 00:08:21,626
in, in Norfolk once he gets here
to North America, which is not.
138
00:08:21,876 --> 00:08:23,711
Yeah. It's not surprising.
139
00:08:23,711 --> 00:08:27,757
so we know, you know, virtually very
little about him other than that he did.
140
00:08:27,965 --> 00:08:33,095
He was part of the of what became
the Germantown Mennonite congregation.
141
00:08:33,387 --> 00:08:37,517
So over the next dozen years
or so on, more Mennonites, most of them
142
00:08:37,517 --> 00:08:40,686
actually from northern Germany
and from the Netherlands.
143
00:08:40,686 --> 00:08:42,480
And so there was kind of a Dutch, North
144
00:08:42,480 --> 00:08:46,108
German, Low German kind of quality
to the German town congregation,
145
00:08:46,442 --> 00:08:50,738
which is a little bit different
than, the later migrations, the later
146
00:08:50,738 --> 00:08:54,867
migrations starting in 1709,
when we first have a set of Palatinate,
147
00:08:55,243 --> 00:08:58,246
persons from the Palatinate
who had this Swiss,
148
00:08:58,412 --> 00:09:01,832
Brethren background
migrate here to Pennsylvania.
149
00:09:01,916 --> 00:09:05,086
Initially there was some tension
between these two groups, but they
150
00:09:05,294 --> 00:09:07,129
they were able to work it out.
151
00:09:07,129 --> 00:09:10,841
And then in the subsequent
in the subsequent
152
00:09:11,384 --> 00:09:14,428
decades, up to, let's say, the 1780s,
153
00:09:14,887 --> 00:09:17,890
there's around it's estimated
154
00:09:17,890 --> 00:09:21,185
between 3000 to 5000 Mennonites,
155
00:09:21,185 --> 00:09:26,816
maybe around 500 Amish who migrate from,
from Europe to North America settle
156
00:09:26,816 --> 00:09:30,152
in Pennsylvania, during the 18th century,
157
00:09:30,152 --> 00:09:33,781
some of them began to move down
into Maryland, into Virginia, and so on.
158
00:09:33,781 --> 00:09:36,659
Established small communities down there.
159
00:09:36,659 --> 00:09:41,372
So that's that's the and so they're they're bringing with them, for the most part,
160
00:09:42,331 --> 00:09:46,252
a understanding that is formed
by that early Swiss background.
161
00:09:46,252 --> 00:09:48,546
But the other thing
that enters into the picture
162
00:09:48,546 --> 00:09:53,092
is that in the,
well, actually starting in the late,
163
00:09:53,342 --> 00:09:58,389
16th century, in 1575, Menno
Simon's writings were translated,
164
00:09:58,389 --> 00:10:03,686
his Book, was translated
from Dutch into German, and other Dutch
165
00:10:03,686 --> 00:10:08,983
Mennonite sources were translated
into from some Dutch into German.
166
00:10:08,983 --> 00:10:11,527
Dirk Phillips's first.
167
00:10:11,527 --> 00:10:14,155
The first edition of Dirk's
168
00:10:14,155 --> 00:10:17,158
writings came out in 1715, in German.
169
00:10:17,617 --> 00:10:20,620
And then, of course,
the very, very important
170
00:10:23,456 --> 00:10:24,123
statement,
171
00:10:24,123 --> 00:10:27,209
the Dordrecht confession,
which was a Dutch Mennonite confession,
172
00:10:27,793 --> 00:10:31,130
and was a confession
that was drawn up to bring a,
173
00:10:31,339 --> 00:10:35,635
a number of Dutch Mennonite groups
together to reunite them.
174
00:10:35,635 --> 00:10:40,097
In 1632 and 1660, a group of Swiss
175
00:10:40,097 --> 00:10:45,311
brethren, leaders in the in Alsace,
176
00:10:45,311 --> 00:10:50,733
at the time adopted that that, confession
and it was translated into German.
177
00:10:51,150 --> 00:10:55,738
And, became a very important,
very important document.
178
00:10:56,030 --> 00:10:59,909
And in 1725, at a gathering of
179
00:10:59,909 --> 00:11:04,372
Mennonite church leaders in Pennsylvania,
they two
180
00:11:04,372 --> 00:11:08,501
statement adopted it, made a statement
that this is our confession of faith.
181
00:11:08,793 --> 00:11:12,296
And so Dordrecht, Even though it's Dutch,
182
00:11:12,296 --> 00:11:16,092
has had a very significant, impact
183
00:11:16,092 --> 00:11:20,388
on, on, Swiss Brethren background,
184
00:11:20,388 --> 00:11:23,974
North American Mennonites
and their theological understandings.
185
00:11:24,225 --> 00:11:28,270
It was used in catechism to instruct
186
00:11:28,270 --> 00:11:32,525
instruct, new converts,
and still among the old orders,
187
00:11:32,858 --> 00:11:37,863
both the Amish and the Mennonites,
it is used, as kind of a basis.
188
00:11:38,739 --> 00:11:41,409
I know that there's
still some Beachy Amish who use it,
189
00:11:41,409 --> 00:11:44,745
and that way,
so it's a very, very important document.
190
00:11:44,745 --> 00:11:48,332
And any understanding
of the American Mennonite scene
191
00:11:48,332 --> 00:11:51,836
theologically always has to go back
to what Dordrecht says.
192
00:11:52,211 --> 00:11:54,964
The, the, the Dutch
193
00:11:54,964 --> 00:11:58,008
seem to
I mean, the, the North American Mennonites
194
00:11:58,718 --> 00:12:02,722
seem to have read it kind of
through their Swiss brethren lenses.
195
00:12:03,222 --> 00:12:07,184
For example,
the there's when to talk about leaders.
196
00:12:07,184 --> 00:12:10,020
It refers to the role of deaconess
as well.
197
00:12:10,020 --> 00:12:13,357
The Swiss brethren really didn't
pick up on that very much.
198
00:12:13,357 --> 00:12:17,653
There was an odd case in the late,
19th, early 20th century where,
199
00:12:19,739 --> 00:12:23,284
a Bishop down
200
00:12:23,284 --> 00:12:26,287
in Virginia actually
did ordain Deanonesses.
201
00:12:26,495 --> 00:12:29,039
But that was kind of a, an anomaly.
202
00:12:29,039 --> 00:12:32,460
And the other thing
was the whole question of the ban,
203
00:12:33,252 --> 00:12:36,005
in of course Dordrecht does
204
00:12:36,005 --> 00:12:40,092
does advocate the,
the practice of avoidance,
205
00:12:40,593 --> 00:12:45,139
and that and that, was became
a controversial issue,
206
00:12:45,556 --> 00:12:50,436
even in the, in Europe,
gave rise to the Amish, devision.
207
00:12:50,853 --> 00:12:56,317
in which, Jacob Ammon, probably reading
Menno Simons, maybe Dirk Phillips,
208
00:12:56,317 --> 00:12:59,945
but the Dordrecht confession,
all of which advocated the ban
209
00:13:00,321 --> 00:13:04,700
and and his viewpoint as he looked around
him, I think particularly in Alsace there
210
00:13:04,700 --> 00:13:08,746
where the,
where the, brethren were facing some,
211
00:13:09,371 --> 00:13:11,999
threats of acculturation.
212
00:13:11,999 --> 00:13:15,544
He perceived that part of the problem
was, is that,
213
00:13:15,836 --> 00:13:20,925
we that they had departed
from what these earlier sources said.
214
00:13:21,008 --> 00:13:21,383
Of course,
215
00:13:21,383 --> 00:13:25,971
he didn't have the historical awareness
of knowing that, you know, this was,
216
00:13:26,430 --> 00:13:29,517
what was happening
there, that these were actually Dutch
217
00:13:29,517 --> 00:13:32,144
things
that Swiss brethren people were using.
218
00:13:32,144 --> 00:13:35,147
But I think and using kind of in a,
219
00:13:35,564 --> 00:13:38,567
how should we say, reading them
through their Swiss brethren lenses
220
00:13:38,692 --> 00:13:43,322
and kind of, glossing over the parts
that really didn't fit with that.
221
00:13:44,740 --> 00:13:47,451
So anyhow, my point, though,
222
00:13:47,451 --> 00:13:51,622
is that the side that Dordrecht
is very important for understanding
223
00:13:52,915 --> 00:13:55,459
American Mennonite theological
224
00:13:55,459 --> 00:13:58,712
understand and for, and so on.
225
00:13:59,171 --> 00:14:00,756
Okay.
226
00:14:00,756 --> 00:14:02,508
Yeah, that's very helpful context.
227
00:14:02,508 --> 00:14:06,554
So I want to make sure I got the timeline
right that you were describing.
228
00:14:06,887 --> 00:14:10,182
Did I hear correctly that
the Swiss brethren had already adopted
229
00:14:10,182 --> 00:14:13,936
the Dordrecht Confession
prior to the migration to North America?
230
00:14:14,228 --> 00:14:17,565
At least in the at least in the Alsace
and probably in the Palatinate,
231
00:14:17,565 --> 00:14:21,068
I'm not sure so much up in Switzerland
if all of them did.
232
00:14:21,110 --> 00:14:24,488
You know,
that's always question, though, though.
233
00:14:24,488 --> 00:14:28,659
In 1702, a ...
234
00:14:28,659 --> 00:14:33,289
or collection of of writings
was, was published,
235
00:14:33,289 --> 00:14:37,835
probably in the by the merkel
press, in, in Basel.
236
00:14:38,752 --> 00:14:41,505
And this included a like,
237
00:14:41,505 --> 00:14:46,510
letters of, of Michael Sattler and also,
well known Dutch
238
00:14:46,510 --> 00:14:50,681
Mennonite martyr,
such, Thomas van Enbroek and so on.
239
00:14:50,681 --> 00:14:53,684
And interestingly
enough, included the Dordrecht confession,
240
00:14:54,059 --> 00:14:58,856
but it's, it's a Dordrecht confession
that is, adapted.
241
00:14:59,023 --> 00:15:01,859
I mean, it's the basic text that
Dordrecht, but there's additions to it.
242
00:15:01,859 --> 00:15:05,571
And one particular edition is I,
extra article.
243
00:15:05,571 --> 00:15:09,325
It actually has not 18 articles,
but 19 articles, but an extra article
244
00:15:09,325 --> 00:15:12,328
on the Holy Spirit,
which is very interesting.
245
00:15:12,703 --> 00:15:15,831
The other thing
that is interesting is that
246
00:15:16,832 --> 00:15:19,335
that in talking about marriage,
247
00:15:19,335 --> 00:15:24,548
it seems to come down much more strongly
against the whole idea of divorce
248
00:15:24,548 --> 00:15:25,132
and remarriage
249
00:15:25,132 --> 00:15:29,053
than, let's say, the Swiss brethren
or even the Dutch, early Dutch Anabaptists
250
00:15:29,053 --> 00:15:33,265
did, and even the Hutterites,
all of which, were using Erasmus's
251
00:15:33,557 --> 00:15:37,227
Latin annotations of the New Testament.
252
00:15:37,895 --> 00:15:40,898
Had had held to the idea
253
00:15:40,940 --> 00:15:44,652
that adultery broke the marriage bond, and
254
00:15:44,860 --> 00:15:48,948
and thus divorce and remarriage
were permissible for the innocent party.
255
00:15:49,281 --> 00:15:51,200
Now, that's not a viewpoint I hold to.
256
00:15:51,200 --> 00:15:55,204
I think, if, if ...
257
00:15:55,204 --> 00:15:59,124
is moving it toward that direction,
I think that's, that's a good thing.
258
00:15:59,124 --> 00:16:03,754
But, you know, that's that is
that is the, the historical reality,
259
00:16:04,755 --> 00:16:07,925
Dordrecht does have a, does have a,
260
00:16:08,842 --> 00:16:11,887
have a, have a niche
there has a place there
261
00:16:12,012 --> 00:16:14,807
for helping to understand
the are theological
262
00:16:14,807 --> 00:16:17,768
what are the theological underpinnings
of our faith.
263
00:16:17,768 --> 00:16:20,688
And that was actually by the,
264
00:16:20,688 --> 00:16:25,192
by the Pennsylvania Mennonites
in 1725 adopted it
265
00:16:25,192 --> 00:16:28,988
because it's still in the popular
imagination.
266
00:16:28,988 --> 00:16:31,198
The ...
267
00:16:31,198 --> 00:16:36,036
or Anabaptist, which is, you know,
we all people like to use the term
268
00:16:36,036 --> 00:16:36,870
Anabaptist today.
269
00:16:36,870 --> 00:16:38,080
I think it's an awful term.
270
00:16:38,080 --> 00:16:40,541
I, I'm not sure why
we all got stuck with it, but,
271
00:16:40,541 --> 00:16:42,209
you know, we've got stuck with it.
272
00:16:42,209 --> 00:16:45,004
It's inaccurate, etymologically.
273
00:16:45,004 --> 00:16:48,882
So, you know, we're not rebaptizers
is that's something that the,
274
00:16:48,882 --> 00:16:54,638
our opponents accused us of, but,
was still kind of a term of opprobrium.
275
00:16:54,888 --> 00:16:58,267
And so, the the,
276
00:16:58,851 --> 00:17:02,855
the American Mennonites,
one of their purposes adopted, it was,
277
00:17:02,855 --> 00:17:08,152
was so that they could,
could give it to the English authorities.
278
00:17:08,152 --> 00:17:10,821
Say, they'll say
this is what we believe were peaceful.
279
00:17:10,821 --> 00:17:13,365
We though, aren't rebellious
or anything like that.
280
00:17:13,365 --> 00:17:16,910
And interestingly enough, in 1712,
281
00:17:17,119 --> 00:17:20,330
the Germantown Mennonites
had asked the Dutch Mennonites
282
00:17:20,330 --> 00:17:23,917
to translate the,
Dordrecht confession into English
283
00:17:23,917 --> 00:17:26,003
so that they could essentially,
they weren't reading English.
284
00:17:26,003 --> 00:17:31,258
They were using, Holland dutch, or maybe
Lowland German or even High German, but,
285
00:17:31,508 --> 00:17:33,802
so that they could give it
to their English neighbors
286
00:17:33,802 --> 00:17:37,306
and to the authorities so they could see,
you know, well, this is what we believe.
287
00:17:37,306 --> 00:17:39,266
And the 1725,
288
00:17:41,810 --> 00:17:44,897
gathering or some people refer to it
as a conference,
289
00:17:45,314 --> 00:17:48,609
of leaders adopted it
and then it was published in 17.
290
00:17:48,650 --> 00:17:53,238
Then the Dordrecht confession was again
published in English in 1727.
291
00:17:53,447 --> 00:17:55,449
Now it was published in German.
292
00:17:55,449 --> 00:17:57,576
Okay, a number of different times.
293
00:17:57,576 --> 00:18:01,789
And like I said, was often used
as kind of a framework for,
294
00:18:02,206 --> 00:18:04,875
for catechism or,
or instruction of converts
295
00:18:04,875 --> 00:18:07,878
before baptism.
296
00:18:09,046 --> 00:18:09,630
And the other thing
297
00:18:09,630 --> 00:18:12,633
I should just mention
is, here I'm blathering on.
298
00:18:12,758 --> 00:18:16,470
But the term Mennonite, when did we when
did these Swiss people become Mennonites?
299
00:18:16,470 --> 00:18:20,641
Well, that happened in the Palatinate
in the 1650s and 60s,
300
00:18:20,891 --> 00:18:26,647
because as Swiss Brethren people
moved into moving into the Palatinate
301
00:18:26,647 --> 00:18:31,276
and into Alsace,
being pushed out of Zurich, primarily.
302
00:18:32,194 --> 00:18:37,157
And this is on the, on
the end of at the end, at the termination
303
00:18:37,157 --> 00:18:41,245
of the 30 Years War, which in which
the Palatinate was a major battleground,
304
00:18:41,829 --> 00:18:43,413
it was devastated.
305
00:18:43,413 --> 00:18:45,958
The Elector of the Palatinate,
Karl Ludwig,
306
00:18:45,958 --> 00:18:50,712
needed warm bodies to farm his lands,
and so he was not picky.
307
00:18:50,712 --> 00:18:56,343
And so he actually granted in 1664, he
granted a, a concession to these folks,
308
00:18:56,343 --> 00:18:59,847
but to get around the Holy Roman
309
00:18:59,847 --> 00:19:03,851
Empires,
ban of Anabaptist or Wiedertäufer,
310
00:19:04,226 --> 00:19:07,229
He didn't call them Wiedertäufer,
He referred to them as Mennonites.
311
00:19:07,479 --> 00:19:08,147
And he did that
312
00:19:08,147 --> 00:19:12,776
because the Dutch Mennonites you know,
were these very prosperous, peaceful.
313
00:19:12,776 --> 00:19:15,863
Well, evidently every could know
they had a good reputation.
314
00:19:16,155 --> 00:19:19,950
And so by this is this is not guilt
by association.
315
00:19:19,950 --> 00:19:22,327
This is, you know, innocence,
by association.
316
00:19:22,327 --> 00:19:24,163
These are folks are Mennonites.
317
00:19:24,163 --> 00:19:27,875
And so that's when these Swiss Brethren
people became known as Mennonites.
318
00:19:27,875 --> 00:19:29,251
It was there in the Palatinate.
319
00:19:29,251 --> 00:19:31,503
And of course, they carried with
and they accepted that.
320
00:19:31,503 --> 00:19:32,546
They accepted that,
321
00:19:32,546 --> 00:19:37,134
that, nomenclature and carried it
with them here to North America.
322
00:19:37,134 --> 00:19:43,015
So that's how we how we Swiss, brethren
background folks became, Mennonites.
323
00:19:43,015 --> 00:19:45,475
It's, because of Charles Ludwig.
324
00:19:46,852 --> 00:19:48,437
This is excellent in context.
325
00:19:48,437 --> 00:19:51,440
Thank you for walking
us through this things.
326
00:19:51,523 --> 00:19:55,277
And so,
with our subject today, being Mennonites
327
00:19:55,277 --> 00:19:58,572
in North America, what you're describing
happened only decades
328
00:19:59,072 --> 00:20:02,242
prior
to the the migration to North America.
329
00:20:03,285 --> 00:20:06,622
So can you highlight
some of the theological,
330
00:20:06,955 --> 00:20:09,708
the theological concerns among Mennonites
331
00:20:09,708 --> 00:20:12,711
in North America during this era?
332
00:20:13,295 --> 00:20:14,796
Well, okay.
333
00:20:14,796 --> 00:20:17,799
One of the things that,
334
00:20:19,301 --> 00:20:21,595
Well, one things you have to keep in mind
335
00:20:21,595 --> 00:20:24,681
is that the sources for
that are very scarce.
336
00:20:25,849 --> 00:20:28,101
There's not very much being written.
337
00:20:28,101 --> 00:20:31,980
In fact,
most of what we know is about folks,
338
00:20:32,439 --> 00:20:36,818
can be, where they are
and where they're located when they came.
339
00:20:36,944 --> 00:20:39,613
And so on, are actually
in public documents.
340
00:20:39,613 --> 00:20:42,741
And so it, you know,
there may be family Bibles
341
00:20:42,741 --> 00:20:46,495
that have a family registry
and maybe some comments and so on.
342
00:20:46,828 --> 00:20:47,996
Not many letters.
343
00:20:47,996 --> 00:20:49,831
So there were letters, okay.
344
00:20:49,831 --> 00:20:54,503
There were letters, that, that survived,
but not many of them.
345
00:20:54,503 --> 00:20:58,131
I, we have sort of a hint
that there were more, but they were lost
346
00:20:58,131 --> 00:20:59,258
over time.
347
00:20:59,258 --> 00:21:02,302
Not much theological writing.
348
00:21:02,678 --> 00:21:06,348
in 1744 there, Heinrich Funke,
349
00:21:06,348 --> 00:21:10,602
a bishop in the Franconia
area, wrote a mirror of baptism.
350
00:21:10,602 --> 00:21:14,606
He wrote it in German,
and he wrote it in response to,
351
00:21:14,940 --> 00:21:19,486
the efforts of the of a new group,
352
00:21:19,653 --> 00:21:23,865
a relatively new group that sometimes
referred to as the Schwarzenaur brethren,
353
00:21:24,283 --> 00:21:29,288
what we would refer to as the German Baptist brother and the Alexander Mac people.
354
00:21:31,164 --> 00:21:31,999
Who were a
355
00:21:31,999 --> 00:21:35,585
very, very small group in Germany
starting in 1708,
356
00:21:36,003 --> 00:21:39,298
most of them migrated to Pennsylvania.
357
00:21:39,589 --> 00:21:40,924
Yeah.
358
00:21:40,924 --> 00:21:46,221
Starting in 1719,
set up congregations here in Pennsylvania.
359
00:21:46,221 --> 00:21:48,515
But they were also very evangelistic.
360
00:21:48,515 --> 00:21:52,728
And they,
they considered Mennonites to be decayed.
361
00:21:53,520 --> 00:21:56,106
You know, they had lost,
362
00:21:56,106 --> 00:21:59,443
and one of their main critiques was
that they didn't baptize the right way.
363
00:22:00,444 --> 00:22:04,573
Because, the Schwarzenaur brethren
through reading Gottfried Arnold's
364
00:22:05,490 --> 00:22:09,494
church history came the conclusion
that immersion baptism was correct mode.
365
00:22:09,953 --> 00:22:13,081
And of course, Mennonites,
baptized by pouring.
366
00:22:13,582 --> 00:22:18,712
And so, there was a, okay,
it was his name, its last names price.
367
00:22:18,712 --> 00:22:23,258
But he's a German German Baptist leader
in Heinrich Funke's community.
368
00:22:23,508 --> 00:22:29,014
And he is working zealously to convince,
young people from Mennonite homes
369
00:22:29,014 --> 00:22:31,516
that really, they
if they want to be where,
370
00:22:31,516 --> 00:22:34,311
where it's going,
they ought to join the brother.
371
00:22:34,311 --> 00:22:37,397
And the baptism
is the main, one of the main issues.
372
00:22:38,357 --> 00:22:39,733
And so Heinrich Funke
373
00:22:39,733 --> 00:22:42,694
writes this, mirror of baptism,
374
00:22:44,029 --> 00:22:47,324
as kind of a counter or as a defense,
375
00:22:47,407 --> 00:22:50,619
the Mennonite practice of pouring,
376
00:22:51,370 --> 00:22:53,914
and it's,
377
00:22:53,914 --> 00:22:56,708
it's actually a very well argued treatise.
378
00:22:56,708 --> 00:22:57,834
It's not very long.
379
00:22:57,834 --> 00:23:01,046
But is is the most significant, probably
380
00:23:01,046 --> 00:23:04,049
one of the most significant things
written by 18th century Mennonite.
381
00:23:04,424 --> 00:23:07,594
But in the course of it,
he does explain to us
382
00:23:07,844 --> 00:23:11,390
what his understanding
of, of conversion is,
383
00:23:11,390 --> 00:23:16,019
what his understanding of salvation is,
how how, what Jesus did for us.
384
00:23:16,019 --> 00:23:18,980
And the cross connects
to how we're supposed to live.
385
00:23:18,980 --> 00:23:24,361
And he does a very clever job in my mind,
defending, pouring by
386
00:23:24,361 --> 00:23:27,906
and of course, the,
the German Baptist argument for pouring
387
00:23:28,198 --> 00:23:32,828
other than, the supposed argument
that Gottfried Arnold gave that
388
00:23:32,953 --> 00:23:34,830
that was the practice of the church
389
00:23:34,830 --> 00:23:37,833
was based on
how they read the various metaphors.
390
00:23:38,375 --> 00:23:40,627
And so, Heinrich
391
00:23:40,627 --> 00:23:43,630
Funke uses,
essentially different metaphors,
392
00:23:43,880 --> 00:23:47,134
from Scripture to, to demonstrate that
393
00:23:47,509 --> 00:23:52,597
that, pouring is a legitimate way of,
of doing water baptism.
394
00:23:52,931 --> 00:23:54,641
So it's a very interesting argument.
395
00:23:54,641 --> 00:23:57,978
But I think more importantly,
in the course of his arguments,
396
00:23:57,978 --> 00:24:03,817
he does talk about what does it mean, to
how does one become a Christian?
397
00:24:04,693 --> 00:24:07,154
How is one how salvation,
398
00:24:07,154 --> 00:24:10,490
implemented, what's our response?
399
00:24:10,490 --> 00:24:11,324
And so on.
400
00:24:11,324 --> 00:24:15,036
And so he actually talks about the baptism
of the spirit, the baptism of water,
401
00:24:15,036 --> 00:24:16,746
and the baptism of fire.
402
00:24:16,746 --> 00:24:18,665
A baptism of the spirit is foundational.
403
00:24:18,665 --> 00:24:21,793
And there he talks about the work
of the Holy Spirit on a person's life
404
00:24:21,793 --> 00:24:24,880
bringing conviction,
convicting them of sin,
405
00:24:25,172 --> 00:24:29,509
the necessity for repentance, and then,
of course, the pouring out of the spirit.
406
00:24:29,634 --> 00:24:32,512
There's this imagery
that he likes to really use, the pouring
407
00:24:32,512 --> 00:24:36,308
out of the spirit and the whole process of
conversion and the new birth.
408
00:24:37,934 --> 00:24:40,937
and that's a very, very important
concept.
409
00:24:41,229 --> 00:24:43,899
In Anabaptism is, is the new birth
410
00:24:43,899 --> 00:24:47,569
and the impact of the new birth,
the change that happens.
411
00:24:48,028 --> 00:24:51,948
And then of course, he talks
about the baptism of water.
412
00:24:52,324 --> 00:24:55,327
And of course, he sees that as a symbol.
413
00:24:55,327 --> 00:24:58,747
He sees it as, as, you know,
not that the water,
414
00:24:58,955 --> 00:25:02,083
changes you, but it's not just a symbol.
415
00:25:02,083 --> 00:25:06,630
It's also a, a witness,
a testimony of a good conscience.
416
00:25:06,630 --> 00:25:11,510
It's a declaration of,
of commitment to Christ.
417
00:25:11,510 --> 00:25:13,762
It's an open declaration
of commitment to Christ.
418
00:25:13,762 --> 00:25:18,892
And of course, it is
also the the means by which one is united
419
00:25:18,892 --> 00:25:22,812
are incorporated into the physical body
of Christ, into the church.
420
00:25:23,438 --> 00:25:27,400
so, you know, I think that some people,
and particularly,
421
00:25:27,400 --> 00:25:32,030
it seems to be kind of popular these days
to, to, talk about,
422
00:25:32,113 --> 00:25:35,951
you know, baptism
and I know some early church,
423
00:25:35,951 --> 00:25:39,913
advocates have really brought in
and have even criticized Mennonites,
424
00:25:40,330 --> 00:25:43,792
symbolic understanding of baptism.
425
00:25:44,376 --> 00:25:47,796
But I think that's because they only
pick up on the idea that,
426
00:25:49,005 --> 00:25:49,881
of the symbol
427
00:25:49,881 --> 00:25:52,884
and it is symbol, it is symbolic,
it is representative.
428
00:25:52,926 --> 00:25:54,386
But it's more than that.
429
00:25:54,386 --> 00:25:59,558
But it is the it's as even as the early
Anabaptists would have argued, okay,
430
00:25:59,766 --> 00:26:03,395
it's the blood of Christ that washes away
our sin, not the water of baptism.
431
00:26:03,770 --> 00:26:04,771
Okay.
432
00:26:04,771 --> 00:26:09,317
And it is the it is the
it is the the Spirit of God
433
00:26:09,317 --> 00:26:10,610
that makes a change in us.
434
00:26:10,610 --> 00:26:13,405
And that's conditioned on our response.
435
00:26:13,405 --> 00:26:15,448
And baptism is a testimony.
436
00:26:15,448 --> 00:26:17,450
It's a it's a it's a commitment.
437
00:26:17,450 --> 00:26:20,537
It's a sign,
and it's also an act of obedience.
438
00:26:20,537 --> 00:26:22,789
And of course, all that is tied into it.
439
00:26:22,789 --> 00:26:27,168
And of course, with them, they don't
they don't see salvation as being event.
440
00:26:27,168 --> 00:26:28,795
They see it as being a process.
441
00:26:28,795 --> 00:26:33,592
And so, you know, you one could say, okay,
well, baptism is part of that process
442
00:26:33,592 --> 00:26:38,930
of, of salvation, which, you know,
has a beginning when one first says
443
00:26:38,930 --> 00:26:43,727
yes to God, but then has a continuation
until the final day when
444
00:26:44,811 --> 00:26:45,186
until
445
00:26:45,186 --> 00:26:50,650
our last breath, or until the final day,
when when everything is, is,
446
00:26:50,984 --> 00:26:53,778
wrapped up as it should be.
447
00:26:53,778 --> 00:26:56,781
So but then there's the baptism of fire.
448
00:26:56,781 --> 00:27:00,535
Now, that's an early Anabaptist concept,
449
00:27:01,328 --> 00:27:04,789
and they normally connected it
with the whole idea of suffering,
450
00:27:05,081 --> 00:27:08,376
being persecuted,
being martyred and stuff like that.
451
00:27:08,752 --> 00:27:12,088
But with Funke, He's he's moved now.
452
00:27:12,380 --> 00:27:14,758
Now, there was some
there was some straightening.
453
00:27:14,758 --> 00:27:16,509
There was some sanctioning.
454
00:27:16,509 --> 00:27:19,304
In 18th century
455
00:27:19,304 --> 00:27:23,391
Europe, particularly the platinum is
still up, still in Switzerland and so on.
456
00:27:23,933 --> 00:27:28,104
And that's part of the push that, that,
that, as far as I can see, actually pushes
457
00:27:28,104 --> 00:27:33,401
most of the Mennonites
in the Palatinate over across the North
458
00:27:33,401 --> 00:27:36,404
America, over the course of,
459
00:27:37,238 --> 00:27:39,616
of about half a century.
460
00:27:39,616 --> 00:27:43,244
And they but
461
00:27:43,244 --> 00:27:47,707
but they, they even though there's
some economic straightening and some legal
462
00:27:47,707 --> 00:27:52,128
straightening and so on, they're,
narrowing and, and and crimping and so on.
463
00:27:53,088 --> 00:27:53,963
They aren't
464
00:27:53,963 --> 00:27:57,425
they aren't being persecuted
like they were in the 16th century
465
00:27:57,425 --> 00:28:01,388
or even even in Switzerland
and the, 17th century,
466
00:28:01,721 --> 00:28:05,600
which was part of what pushed a lot
of them out of that, particularly Zurich.
467
00:28:05,600 --> 00:28:08,812
And then out of Bern during the
they're in the 17th century
468
00:28:08,978 --> 00:28:11,981
into the Palatinate
and into, into the Alsace.
469
00:28:12,482 --> 00:28:15,777
Here they are in North America,
things are relatively good.
470
00:28:15,902 --> 00:28:17,487
This is a good land.
471
00:28:17,487 --> 00:28:21,908
As James Lemons called it, it's
the best man's best poor man's country.
472
00:28:22,200 --> 00:28:25,495
This is a land where, they can buy land.
473
00:28:25,704 --> 00:28:27,831
This is a colony where they can buy land.
474
00:28:27,831 --> 00:28:30,667
They can farm with,
475
00:28:30,667 --> 00:28:33,253
relative.
476
00:28:33,253 --> 00:28:35,338
No, no, interruption
477
00:28:35,338 --> 00:28:38,466
now, in later on in the 1750s,
478
00:28:38,466 --> 00:28:42,178
you know, you're going to be, facing,
the, the,
479
00:28:42,470 --> 00:28:45,223
French and Indian War and then, of course,
the American Revolution.
480
00:28:45,223 --> 00:28:48,059
But in 1744, things are looking
pretty good.
481
00:28:48,059 --> 00:28:52,439
So how do you take this
theology of baptism by fire?
482
00:28:52,856 --> 00:28:55,984
And, and, you know,
what do you do with it?
483
00:28:55,984 --> 00:28:58,027
Because that's an early concept.
484
00:28:58,027 --> 00:29:01,156
Well, what he does with it is that he
he describes
485
00:29:01,156 --> 00:29:04,159
it as essentially
the baptism of self-denial.
486
00:29:04,576 --> 00:29:09,122
Now, that is that is part and parcel
of the earlier understanding, too.
487
00:29:09,664 --> 00:29:11,541
Okay. It's part and parcel of it.
488
00:29:11,541 --> 00:29:15,211
But experientially,
existentially, here in North America
489
00:29:15,211 --> 00:29:18,465
in the 1740s,
Mennonites are not being persecuted.
490
00:29:18,465 --> 00:29:22,010
So is the whole baptism of fire
still legitimate?
491
00:29:22,427 --> 00:29:27,223
And Funke says, yes, it is because
we all have to fight against the evil one.
492
00:29:27,223 --> 00:29:29,559
We all have to fight
against our own lusts.
493
00:29:29,559 --> 00:29:34,105
We all have to say no to to
whatever is bad, okay?
494
00:29:34,105 --> 00:29:38,276
And that that is a
that is that is a purging
495
00:29:38,610 --> 00:29:41,404
a a a growth and so on.
496
00:29:41,404 --> 00:29:42,405
And he describes it
497
00:29:42,405 --> 00:29:45,950
as, as this is the baptism of fire
is the baptism of self-denial.
498
00:29:46,284 --> 00:29:49,913
And that's, that's all part of this,
salvation process.
499
00:29:50,413 --> 00:29:53,333
So let's say I say he doesn't see
salvation is simply an event,
500
00:29:53,333 --> 00:29:56,211
but sees it as a process to the end.
501
00:29:56,211 --> 00:29:57,128
And of course, the
502
00:29:57,128 --> 00:30:01,132
thing is, he brings in all the things
about nonresistance, about,
503
00:30:02,842 --> 00:30:03,259
about
504
00:30:03,259 --> 00:30:06,262
church and everything like that
in this little book.
505
00:30:06,262 --> 00:30:08,515
It's a really a lovely little book,
and you can read it today.
506
00:30:08,515 --> 00:30:12,602
I mean, the Church of God, Christ
Mennonites, publishing
507
00:30:12,602 --> 00:30:14,145
House keeps it in print.
508
00:30:14,145 --> 00:30:16,940
then in 1804,
509
00:30:16,940 --> 00:30:19,943
there's another really important,
510
00:30:20,401 --> 00:30:23,196
book written by a Lancaster conference.
511
00:30:23,196 --> 00:30:27,534
Bishop by the name of Christian
Burkholder, and he himself was a migrant.
512
00:30:27,534 --> 00:30:30,537
Came here
when he was 18 years old with his mother
513
00:30:30,537 --> 00:30:33,957
and widowed mother and older siblings
settled in
514
00:30:34,833 --> 00:30:37,919
in Lancaster County. And,
515
00:30:39,671 --> 00:30:41,673
he wrote a book, which
516
00:30:41,673 --> 00:30:44,676
in English we can translate as an address
to the youth.
517
00:30:45,009 --> 00:30:51,808
And he actually wrote it in:
518
00:30:51,808 --> 00:30:55,478
and but it wasn't printed
until it wasn't published until 1804.
519
00:30:56,187 --> 00:30:58,731
And it addresses a different situation.
520
00:30:58,731 --> 00:31:02,360
Again,
you know, we have Funke’s writing is
521
00:31:03,111 --> 00:31:07,156
is a response to German Baptists,
proselytizing efforts.
522
00:31:07,490 --> 00:31:12,328
And in a sense, Burkholder’s
523
00:31:12,328 --> 00:31:18,001
is also, a response to efforts of,
another religious movements,
524
00:31:18,001 --> 00:31:24,299
efforts to essentially, win the children
or even the adults of,
525
00:31:24,549 --> 00:31:28,177
Mennonite families here in Pennsylvania
and elsewhere,
526
00:31:28,970 --> 00:31:32,515
in this particular case,
it's a new religious movement
527
00:31:32,599 --> 00:31:37,520
starting in the 1770s, that historians
refer to as the German Awakening.
528
00:31:37,937 --> 00:31:42,150
And it was, a generation later
than the quote unquote Great Awakening
529
00:31:42,275 --> 00:31:45,945
that swept through,
essentially the Calvinist churches here
530
00:31:45,945 --> 00:31:49,949
in North America with associated people
like Jonathan Edwards and George Whitfield
531
00:31:49,949 --> 00:31:51,159
and stuff like that.
532
00:31:51,159 --> 00:31:54,495
But it's a similar
kind of thing in the sense
533
00:31:54,495 --> 00:31:58,791
of how it talks about conversion,
how conversion happens, and so on.
534
00:31:59,167 --> 00:32:03,254
And then at the same time,
we have the first Methodists
535
00:32:03,254 --> 00:32:06,841
coming to North America
and working and and so on.
536
00:32:07,008 --> 00:32:10,011
And then we just have also this, this,
537
00:32:10,094 --> 00:32:13,097
immigrant pieties tradition,
538
00:32:13,473 --> 00:32:16,017
okay, that, that,
539
00:32:16,017 --> 00:32:20,188
you know, every German
speaking group in Pennsylvania
540
00:32:20,188 --> 00:32:23,274
in some way or another was impacted
by Pietism,
541
00:32:23,983 --> 00:32:28,905
the Lutherans, the reformed, the church,
the brethren, of course,
542
00:32:28,905 --> 00:32:35,745
were very much formed from out of Pietism,
and so on, the Moravians and so on.
543
00:32:35,745 --> 00:32:38,665
But even Mennonites,
you know, were impacted by pieties.
544
00:32:38,665 --> 00:32:40,291
I mean, back in the old country.
545
00:32:40,291 --> 00:32:43,920
And this is reflected primarily
in some things that they're reading
546
00:32:44,170 --> 00:32:48,633
and they're singing, they're using
they're singing pietistic hymns,
547
00:32:50,343 --> 00:32:50,969
and so on.
548
00:32:50,969 --> 00:32:53,763
They're
not just singing the Asplund hymns,
549
00:32:53,763 --> 00:32:56,724
but they're also singing
these new hymns, these pieties hymns.
550
00:32:57,183 --> 00:32:59,852
And so it has an impact on it
551
00:32:59,852 --> 00:33:02,855
and so on. But,
552
00:33:04,691 --> 00:33:06,067
one of the things that that
553
00:33:06,067 --> 00:33:09,070
the German Awakening emphasizes is.
554
00:33:09,946 --> 00:33:12,949
A particular kind of
555
00:33:13,533 --> 00:33:16,661
of of conversion experience,
556
00:33:17,161 --> 00:33:20,164
okay, a crisis conversion experience.
557
00:33:20,540 --> 00:33:25,712
And which one is, it's very much
in the kind of this pulls from the Pietist
558
00:33:25,712 --> 00:33:28,715
thing of it very much emphasizes
feelings,
559
00:33:28,923 --> 00:33:31,926
emotions, affectations,
560
00:33:33,344 --> 00:33:33,803
and so on.
561
00:33:33,803 --> 00:33:37,557
And it's not that that isn't present
among, and, in Anabaptism
562
00:33:37,557 --> 00:33:40,560
and so on,
563
00:33:40,685 --> 00:33:42,186
even early Anabaptism.
564
00:33:42,186 --> 00:33:47,108
But, it is very much
this idea that one is brought
565
00:33:47,108 --> 00:33:53,781
to, to, through anxiety and anxiousness
and a sense of, of dread
566
00:33:54,032 --> 00:33:57,785
that one is brought to a place
where you are undone and you
567
00:33:58,411 --> 00:34:03,958
simply have to cast yourself on, on Christ
and His merits and what he did the
568
00:34:03,958 --> 00:34:09,881
theological understandings that undergird
this are essentially Protestant.
569
00:34:10,381 --> 00:34:14,010
And, it's very much concerned
with justification,
570
00:34:14,469 --> 00:34:17,889
which is really not really
not an Anabaptist concern.
571
00:34:17,889 --> 00:34:21,184
Really not a really not an early,
572
00:34:22,185 --> 00:34:24,687
Mennonite concern here in North America
and so on.
573
00:34:24,687 --> 00:34:26,397
That is pretty much a Protestant thing.
574
00:34:26,397 --> 00:34:31,736
They're much, much more concerned
with the idea of regeneration, of,
575
00:34:32,028 --> 00:34:37,825
salvation being connected
with with the idea of the new birth.
576
00:34:37,825 --> 00:34:40,203
And the creation is something new.
577
00:34:40,203 --> 00:34:43,164
And of course, it does tie
in with the whole thing of what Jesus did
578
00:34:43,164 --> 00:34:47,543
for us in the cross, that he is his work
in the cross has washed away our sins,
579
00:34:48,044 --> 00:34:48,920
and so on.
580
00:34:48,920 --> 00:34:51,714
And the other interesting thing is
581
00:34:51,714 --> 00:34:54,801
that, in these early Anabaptist
582
00:34:54,801 --> 00:34:58,721
writings, you're not going to see anything
referencing,
583
00:34:59,055 --> 00:35:02,016
referencing the idea that very protestant
584
00:35:02,016 --> 00:35:06,229
idea that somehow or another,
it's not just Protestants,
585
00:35:06,229 --> 00:35:09,941
also Roman Catholic,
that Jesus satisfied the wrath of God.
586
00:35:09,941 --> 00:35:11,359
That's not really there.
587
00:35:11,359 --> 00:35:15,279
They talk about Jesus
giving his life as a ransom for many.
588
00:35:15,279 --> 00:35:19,492
They talk about about the fact
that he paid the price of our sins.
589
00:35:19,909 --> 00:35:25,957
They they talk about the fact that you
know, that his blood washes our sins away.
590
00:35:26,040 --> 00:35:30,169
They talk about the fact that,
you know, Jesus's death on the cross
591
00:35:30,169 --> 00:35:33,297
rescued us from the power of Satan
and everything like that.
592
00:35:33,631 --> 00:35:38,302
So their understanding
of what Jesus did, is different
593
00:35:38,302 --> 00:35:40,471
than, let's say,
a Presbyterians understanding
594
00:35:40,471 --> 00:35:43,850
or even or Lutherans understanding
or even some pietist understanding.
595
00:35:43,850 --> 00:35:47,520
Then certainly the the Christ, the
this German awakening thing.
596
00:35:47,854 --> 00:35:52,733
Now, having said that,
the German awakening did have a very,
597
00:35:53,568 --> 00:35:55,736
a very, strong
598
00:35:55,736 --> 00:35:58,823
emphasis on on how one lived.
599
00:35:59,198 --> 00:36:01,951
Okay. And Pietism did too.
600
00:36:01,951 --> 00:36:04,120
Okay Pietism did too.
601
00:36:04,120 --> 00:36:08,332
But the connection between the between
the individual
602
00:36:08,332 --> 00:36:13,671
and the redeemed community
is not intrinsic, as it was among American
603
00:36:13,671 --> 00:36:17,383
Mennonites in the 18th and early 19th
century and, of course, early Anabaptists,
604
00:36:17,633 --> 00:36:19,510
as it is in the German Awakening.
605
00:36:19,510 --> 00:36:21,804
But this German awakening
gave rise to new groups
606
00:36:21,804 --> 00:36:25,099
like the United Brethren, like
the Evangelical Association and so on.
607
00:36:25,683 --> 00:36:29,395
And it's these groups
that began to make an impact
608
00:36:29,896 --> 00:36:34,650
on Mennonite communities
as they try to woo their young people
609
00:36:34,650 --> 00:36:39,530
away from their communities
into into this new community and so on.
610
00:36:39,780 --> 00:36:43,201
And that's what Christian Burkholder
is writing against.
611
00:36:44,118 --> 00:36:45,203
So you spoke of
612
00:36:46,329 --> 00:36:47,538
the Pietists and
613
00:36:47,538 --> 00:36:52,001
the brethren or the German Baptists
to Funke and Burkholder, who
614
00:36:53,586 --> 00:36:55,046
were writing
615
00:36:55,046 --> 00:36:57,673
to try to protect the Mennonites against.
616
00:36:57,673 --> 00:37:00,259
Was the resistance successful,
617
00:37:00,259 --> 00:37:03,262
or did the Pietists and the
618
00:37:03,846 --> 00:37:06,849
German Baptist,
the United Brethren and others
619
00:37:06,933 --> 00:37:09,936
end up affecting the
620
00:37:10,519 --> 00:37:12,897
Mennonite consensus on theology
621
00:37:12,897 --> 00:37:15,900
in the sense of did they win
622
00:37:16,525 --> 00:37:19,779
Mennonites over to their perspectives
in any ways?
623
00:37:20,029 --> 00:37:21,697
Yes. They did.
624
00:37:21,697 --> 00:37:27,536
I mean, the very fact that these writings
exist, you know, and in response to,
625
00:37:27,536 --> 00:37:31,290
I mean, no, they've been, Burkholder
would not have written it probably if,
626
00:37:31,666 --> 00:37:34,835
if all this stuff, all this effort
on the part of the United Brethren
627
00:37:35,086 --> 00:37:39,173
and other German awakening persons
hadn't had any impact.
628
00:37:39,340 --> 00:37:40,049
They did.
629
00:37:40,049 --> 00:37:44,845
They were successful in wooing persons
away from the Mennonite community.
630
00:37:46,639 --> 00:37:49,642
And the other thing, though, with Pietism,
is that
631
00:37:50,268 --> 00:37:53,896
primarily,
Pietism impacted American Mennonites
632
00:37:53,896 --> 00:37:55,982
and also European Mennonites
633
00:37:55,982 --> 00:37:58,985
through its literature,
through its devotional literature.
634
00:37:59,026 --> 00:38:02,029
And they read Johanna's aurnts
635
00:38:02,154 --> 00:38:07,368
true Christianity and they,
they also read to Ter Steigan’s
636
00:38:07,368 --> 00:38:12,498
letters and so on and
and but primarily through the Hymnody.
637
00:38:12,832 --> 00:38:14,959
Okay. Primarily through the Hymnody.
638
00:38:14,959 --> 00:38:18,212
But my, my sense is that, you know,
if they
639
00:38:18,504 --> 00:38:22,717
if they were singing a song, okay,
they were singing a hymn,
640
00:38:23,801 --> 00:38:25,928
even if it's a pietistic hymn
641
00:38:25,928 --> 00:38:28,931
that they put in their own kind of
642
00:38:29,890 --> 00:38:31,892
they, they contextualize it
643
00:38:31,892 --> 00:38:34,895
in a sense and their,
their theological framework,
644
00:38:35,021 --> 00:38:38,816
in a sense, imbued it
with a Mennonite understanding.
645
00:38:39,108 --> 00:38:39,984
Okay.
646
00:38:39,984 --> 00:38:43,195
And so you could say these words, okay,
you sing these words
647
00:38:43,195 --> 00:38:47,199
and so on, and does
a, does a Mennonite singing,
648
00:38:48,159 --> 00:38:49,785
let me see.
649
00:38:49,785 --> 00:38:51,579
What was a common hymn?
650
00:38:51,579 --> 00:38:53,539
Spare your repentance.
651
00:38:53,539 --> 00:38:56,917
Not while one day leads to another,
652
00:38:56,917 --> 00:39:00,338
a very common hymn is written,
I think, by reformed person.
653
00:39:00,755 --> 00:39:05,259
And so, did
what did that mean to a Mennonite?
654
00:39:05,259 --> 00:39:09,513
And what did that mean to a Lutheran
or to reformed or, you know, our
655
00:39:09,513 --> 00:39:14,352
to an evangelical,
association person, United brethren,
656
00:39:15,019 --> 00:39:19,398
I think the what they brought to
it was their own framework, their own,
657
00:39:19,398 --> 00:39:22,526
theological understandings
imbued that him
658
00:39:22,526 --> 00:39:26,030
with a certain context
and, and understanding.
659
00:39:26,030 --> 00:39:29,784
So I think that, you know,
I think that for Mennonites, particularly
660
00:39:29,784 --> 00:39:34,455
for Mennonites who practice believers
baptism, spare your repentance.
661
00:39:34,455 --> 00:39:40,086
Not while one day leads to another
is a call to to its initial call
662
00:39:40,086 --> 00:39:45,800
to, surrender to Christ
and to and to repent.
663
00:39:45,800 --> 00:39:49,637
And of course, that ties in
with the Anabaptist understanding that,
664
00:39:49,637 --> 00:39:52,640
you know, you go to that
which you go into the world,
665
00:39:52,640 --> 00:39:55,643
you preach the gospel
and and those who believe,
666
00:39:55,643 --> 00:39:58,646
who repent and believe,
those are the ones you you think,
667
00:39:58,854 --> 00:40:02,441
Lutheran singing that song
is not going to have that context or
668
00:40:02,483 --> 00:40:04,568
he's not going to bring that to that song?
669
00:40:04,568 --> 00:40:07,822
And so the the hymnody itself
670
00:40:08,656 --> 00:40:10,908
could, I think, be
671
00:40:10,908 --> 00:40:15,246
contextualized by whatever community
we are coming to.
672
00:40:15,621 --> 00:40:19,542
It's when, as as Martin Baim,
a Mennonite Bishop
673
00:40:19,875 --> 00:40:23,087
and William Philip
Otterbein and reform minister,
674
00:40:23,295 --> 00:40:28,467
met in:at Isaac Long's barn at a big meeting, and
675
00:40:28,467 --> 00:40:32,763
they embraced each other and they said,
we are brothers and we are brothers.
676
00:40:32,763 --> 00:40:37,226
Based on the fact that we both have
had this crisis, new birth experience,
677
00:40:38,185 --> 00:40:41,272
that's the foundation and that's and
and actually,
678
00:40:41,272 --> 00:40:45,359
the Mennonites had no problem necessarily
with crisis conversion experiences.
679
00:40:45,359 --> 00:40:48,821
They just didn't think that they were
the only way one could be converted.
680
00:40:49,155 --> 00:40:49,613
Okay.
681
00:40:49,613 --> 00:40:52,616
But when you began saying that
682
00:40:52,908 --> 00:40:55,786
that particular new birth,
the way in which the new birth
683
00:40:55,786 --> 00:40:59,874
has to happen in this particular
kind of experiential way is necessary.
684
00:41:00,416 --> 00:41:00,875
Okay.
685
00:41:00,875 --> 00:41:06,005
And then when you begin
to make common cause with other traditions
686
00:41:06,005 --> 00:41:10,342
or other people who are not non resistant,
who baptize babies, who,
687
00:41:10,759 --> 00:41:13,596
do who swear oaths, okay,
688
00:41:13,596 --> 00:41:16,390
then it becomes problematic.
689
00:41:16,390 --> 00:41:21,645
And that's where Martin Beam, eventually,
the other Mennonite bishops
690
00:41:21,645 --> 00:41:24,523
had to put him out of the church
because he was saying,
691
00:41:24,523 --> 00:41:26,567
this is really the basis of my fellowship.
692
00:41:26,567 --> 00:41:29,737
And of course, he becomes a bishop in the
in the United.
693
00:41:29,737 --> 00:41:31,447
What becomes the United Brethren?
694
00:41:31,447 --> 00:41:35,493
So, you know, I think sometimes,
695
00:41:37,244 --> 00:41:37,536
you know,
696
00:41:37,536 --> 00:41:40,873
reading literature and song
can introduce us to new ideas.
697
00:41:41,290 --> 00:41:44,502
When we read something,
what do we bring to it?
698
00:41:44,502 --> 00:41:47,171
Do we read it through our own framework?
699
00:41:47,171 --> 00:41:51,509
Do we imbued with a meaning
that maybe not the writer had originally,
700
00:41:51,509 --> 00:41:54,512
or a context that originally
the writer himself did not have,
701
00:41:54,678 --> 00:42:00,184
but we bring to that into those,
into those texts, our own understandings.
702
00:42:00,184 --> 00:42:04,688
And they can,
they can assist our understanding.
703
00:42:05,231 --> 00:42:08,234
And I one of the things
I like to think about is,
704
00:42:08,567 --> 00:42:11,695
is that it seems to me
that whenever, in a sense,
705
00:42:11,695 --> 00:42:16,242
new ideas
come in to into Mennonite communities
706
00:42:16,242 --> 00:42:20,704
or into Amish communities and so on,
they come across conceptual bridges.
707
00:42:21,330 --> 00:42:24,917
Okay,
there's something in in the tradition
708
00:42:24,917 --> 00:42:29,129
that connects with something
that this new other tradition is same,
709
00:42:29,922 --> 00:42:32,925
and there's a similarity
and they can kind of cross over.
710
00:42:33,217 --> 00:42:34,176
All right. So
711
00:42:35,219 --> 00:42:37,888
that's what I would, would observe here.
712
00:42:37,888 --> 00:42:40,558
And you know old order Mennonites
713
00:42:40,558 --> 00:42:44,144
today, use the ...
714
00:42:44,144 --> 00:42:50,359
songbook, which was a new hymn book
that Lancaster Conference put out in 1804.
715
00:42:50,776 --> 00:42:52,861
And most of the hymns are pieties hymns.
716
00:42:52,861 --> 00:42:55,489
It has so about 80 of the Ausbund hymns.
717
00:42:55,489 --> 00:42:59,034
It has maybe 20 other hymns written by,
you know, 18th,
718
00:42:59,034 --> 00:43:02,454
19th century Mennonite authors,
including Christopher Doc and so on.
719
00:43:02,997 --> 00:43:07,334
But most of the hymns are Pietist hymns,
and they're hymns that Lutherans
720
00:43:07,334 --> 00:43:12,047
and reformed and and
and the brethren particularly, I mean most
721
00:43:12,089 --> 00:43:16,844
almost all the brethren hymnal
was was pietist And the interesting thing
722
00:43:16,844 --> 00:43:19,888
is, is that the impartation also
723
00:43:19,888 --> 00:43:22,891
includes, hymns by Brother.
724
00:43:23,434 --> 00:43:24,393
Okay.
725
00:43:24,393 --> 00:43:27,646
Because there were some brethren
hymn writers in the 18th century
726
00:43:27,646 --> 00:43:33,277
who are writing hymns, and some of those
hymns made their way into, into the ...
727
00:43:33,485 --> 00:43:33,986
the songbook.
728
00:43:33,986 --> 00:43:38,532
And that songbook is still what is being
used by the old order Mennonites.
729
00:43:38,532 --> 00:43:41,535
The Groffdale conference today,
the ones who are still using German.
730
00:43:42,578 --> 00:43:44,913
So I think
731
00:43:44,913 --> 00:43:47,916
it's one thing to read
732
00:43:48,876 --> 00:43:51,337
and to use these sort
733
00:43:51,337 --> 00:43:54,923
these texts as kind of inspiration
and so on like that.
734
00:43:55,549 --> 00:43:58,510
It's another thing though.
735
00:43:58,886 --> 00:44:01,889
When you say, okay, we are now brethren,
736
00:44:02,348 --> 00:44:04,892
and that's always been a problem.
737
00:44:04,892 --> 00:44:08,062
And, and,
and the other thing I would observe
738
00:44:08,062 --> 00:44:12,608
is that up until the 1860s,
for the most part,
739
00:44:12,816 --> 00:44:16,028
okay, when one could push back and say,
maybe the 1840s,
740
00:44:16,528 --> 00:44:19,531
but up until the 1860s,
741
00:44:20,240 --> 00:44:22,618
all these, these,
742
00:44:22,618 --> 00:44:27,665
these other groups who, for
want of a better term, you could describe
743
00:44:27,665 --> 00:44:30,918
as evangelical, though,
that's kind of imposing
744
00:44:30,918 --> 00:44:33,921
a 20th century category on it,
745
00:44:34,088 --> 00:44:37,549
they're trying to win young people
746
00:44:37,675 --> 00:44:40,844
or people away and incorporate,
you know, into their churches
747
00:44:41,387 --> 00:44:44,932
and the the Mennonite church’s
stance is one of resistance
748
00:44:45,432 --> 00:44:48,686
of not,
not accepting these ideas and so on.
749
00:44:48,686 --> 00:44:49,144
Like that,
750
00:44:50,646 --> 00:44:53,607
starting particularly in the 1860s.
751
00:44:53,941 --> 00:44:55,025
All right.
752
00:44:55,025 --> 00:44:57,986
We began to see a change
753
00:44:58,195 --> 00:45:00,906
of accepting new methodologies,
754
00:45:00,906 --> 00:45:03,617
things like Sunday school,
755
00:45:03,617 --> 00:45:06,120
and so on, and then later
756
00:45:06,120 --> 00:45:09,415
on, protracted or revival meetings,
757
00:45:10,040 --> 00:45:13,168
an interest in mission work and outreach,
758
00:45:14,002 --> 00:45:20,300
and even some kind of reframing,
under theological understandings.
759
00:45:20,300 --> 00:45:23,303
Now, some of this has to do with the fact
that they are
760
00:45:23,303 --> 00:45:26,682
also transitioning from English,
from German to English.
761
00:45:26,682 --> 00:45:30,394
And so how do you how do you translate
some of these, these concepts
762
00:45:30,394 --> 00:45:33,397
that are in German, into English
and so on?
763
00:45:33,856 --> 00:45:38,902
And a person who's a prime,
a prime person involved in this,
764
00:45:39,111 --> 00:45:42,114
this whole new kind of approach
is John F funk,
765
00:45:42,740 --> 00:45:45,159
who you mentioned, died in 1930.
766
00:45:45,159 --> 00:45:47,536
Him he lived up into his 90s.
767
00:45:47,536 --> 00:45:49,913
He really had not been that active,
768
00:45:50,914 --> 00:45:51,915
for almost
769
00:45:51,915 --> 00:45:55,085
25 years before his death on so on.
770
00:45:55,085 --> 00:45:58,714
But he is a pivotal person
in American Mennonite history.
771
00:45:59,173 --> 00:46:02,926
He actually deserves,
a full fledged biography.
772
00:46:02,926 --> 00:46:04,511
And he's never had one.
773
00:46:04,511 --> 00:46:08,140
But but he's an interesting person
because,
774
00:46:09,850 --> 00:46:14,271
he, he really he feels as though,
like particularly about Sunday school.
775
00:46:14,271 --> 00:46:15,647
His argument is,
776
00:46:15,647 --> 00:46:16,732
you know, of course, a lot of people
777
00:46:16,732 --> 00:46:18,984
resisting the idea of Sunday school
because it's coming
778
00:46:18,984 --> 00:46:22,696
from these Protestants, it's coming
from these worldly churches and so on.
779
00:46:23,530 --> 00:46:26,283
And of course, that's one of the things
gives rise to the old order movement.
780
00:46:26,283 --> 00:46:28,327
And, and so on.
781
00:46:28,327 --> 00:46:31,622
But his argument is, yes, yes,
we know these early churches
782
00:46:31,622 --> 00:46:35,042
use Sunday school, but can't
we have Mennonite Sunday schools in which,
783
00:46:35,501 --> 00:46:39,129
in our in our Sunday schools,
they can be taught quote unquote.
784
00:46:39,171 --> 00:46:40,881
And he says it's Mennonite Doctrine. Okay.
785
00:46:40,881 --> 00:46:42,299
Mennonite teachings,
786
00:46:42,299 --> 00:46:46,762
that this is just a, in a sense,
a different venue for teaching.
787
00:46:46,887 --> 00:46:50,474
Now, the other interesting thing
that happens is, course, is that,
788
00:46:50,682 --> 00:46:55,187
it increases
the role of laity in teaching.
789
00:46:55,562 --> 00:46:56,230
All right.
790
00:46:56,230 --> 00:46:59,942
Up to this particular point, it's
the or it's the leadership, the appointed
791
00:46:59,942 --> 00:47:02,945
leadership who do the teaching,
the servants of the word, and so on.
792
00:47:03,111 --> 00:47:06,198
Other than the teaching that’s
supposed to happen, in
793
00:47:06,198 --> 00:47:10,077
individual households, you know,
by the father and so on like that.
794
00:47:10,369 --> 00:47:13,372
And of course, that is the argument
the old orders make, you know,
795
00:47:13,497 --> 00:47:16,500
any teaching that happens
other than what we hear in the preaching
796
00:47:16,500 --> 00:47:19,670
should be done at home
by the by the parents and so on.
797
00:47:20,796 --> 00:47:24,007
So, in the
798
00:47:24,007 --> 00:47:28,345
latter part of the 19th century, we,
we have
799
00:47:29,388 --> 00:47:32,182
new ideas being introduced,
new methodologies
800
00:47:32,182 --> 00:47:35,394
being introduced, and there is resistance.
801
00:47:35,602 --> 00:47:37,729
Okay. There is resistance.
802
00:47:37,729 --> 00:47:40,023
And there is also,
803
00:47:40,023 --> 00:47:44,528
there's there's not one approach
to how much of this to take in
804
00:47:44,820 --> 00:47:47,781
somebody like John F funk is actually
805
00:47:47,865 --> 00:47:50,742
called is a cautious innovator.
806
00:47:50,742 --> 00:47:51,410
All right.
807
00:47:51,410 --> 00:47:54,955
So the younger generation
that that was sort of
808
00:47:54,955 --> 00:47:59,710
his proteges are less cautious,
are very much, become very much caught up
809
00:48:00,210 --> 00:48:02,796
particularly,
you know, when they're going to
810
00:48:02,796 --> 00:48:03,922
they're getting education
811
00:48:03,922 --> 00:48:07,301
and sometimes they're going
to evangelical churches in the 1890s.
812
00:48:07,301 --> 00:48:10,429
There are some of them
who actually go to the Moody Bible
813
00:48:10,429 --> 00:48:14,433
Institute and pick up
in, pre millennial dispensationalism,
814
00:48:14,892 --> 00:48:17,811
which is the greatest heresy ever
to hit the Mennonites.
815
00:48:17,811 --> 00:48:20,772
But anyhow, well, one of them. Okay.
816
00:48:20,772 --> 00:48:23,650
But anyhow,
they pick up on this kind of stuff.
817
00:48:23,650 --> 00:48:24,943
All right.
818
00:48:24,943 --> 00:48:27,279
and become less cautious
819
00:48:27,279 --> 00:48:29,907
and how much to look at.
820
00:48:29,907 --> 00:48:31,241
So, for example, if you,
821
00:48:32,284 --> 00:48:35,120
if you look at an early mission
822
00:48:35,120 --> 00:48:38,123
urban mission in Chicago,
the Chicago mission,
823
00:48:38,165 --> 00:48:42,044
I think it's starting in the 1890s, it's
basically using kind of the
824
00:48:42,461 --> 00:48:45,172
the typical Protestant
urban mission thing.
825
00:48:45,172 --> 00:48:47,132
You know, we think of
like the Bowery Mission and so on.
826
00:48:47,132 --> 00:48:48,926
That's kind of its approach, okay.
827
00:48:48,926 --> 00:48:51,929
But it gets these people and so they,
you know, they send people there,
828
00:48:51,929 --> 00:48:54,932
they have resident missionaries,
829
00:48:55,557 --> 00:48:57,809
and they do the kind of things
that Protestants,
830
00:48:57,809 --> 00:49:00,979
evangelical schools have done in urban
missions and stuff like that.
831
00:49:02,773 --> 00:49:05,776
But then they try to dress them up
in plain clothes.
832
00:49:05,817 --> 00:49:08,904
And some of that is because,
833
00:49:11,031 --> 00:49:12,407
because they're not,
834
00:49:12,407 --> 00:49:16,286
I think it's sometimes because they think
that that's what they should do.
835
00:49:16,286 --> 00:49:20,082
But sometimes I think it's also, a means
836
00:49:20,082 --> 00:49:24,127
by which to deflect criticism
of what they're doing.
837
00:49:24,336 --> 00:49:24,753
All right.
838
00:49:24,753 --> 00:49:27,881
Because, you know, if they can get
these converts to dress plain.
839
00:49:28,423 --> 00:49:28,840
All right,
840
00:49:29,800 --> 00:49:30,884
you know, then that will
841
00:49:30,884 --> 00:49:35,055
will silence the, the, the, the,
their critics.
842
00:49:35,055 --> 00:49:38,767
Now, that might be a topic
for the next, next or another, podcast.
843
00:49:39,476 --> 00:49:42,270
But along with this comes some, some,
844
00:49:42,270 --> 00:49:47,025
some newer theological understandings.
845
00:49:47,025 --> 00:49:50,696
Now, one of the things
we do have to keep in mind is that
846
00:49:51,947 --> 00:49:54,950
there's still this very strong
847
00:49:55,158 --> 00:49:58,161
emphasis that salvation
848
00:49:58,620 --> 00:50:01,498
and how you live are connected.
849
00:50:01,498 --> 00:50:05,210
My personal opinion is that the older way,
850
00:50:05,752 --> 00:50:09,548
looking at Funk and Burkholder
and then, Samuel Gotch,
851
00:50:09,548 --> 00:50:14,094
there's another writer,
Peter Burkholder in Virginia, who writes,
852
00:50:14,094 --> 00:50:17,764
and it's nine Reflections of Bishop
and Virginia is published in 1837.
853
00:50:18,598 --> 00:50:23,353
This older way of looking at things
has it makes a more intrinsic connection
854
00:50:23,353 --> 00:50:26,356
between salvation and how we live.
855
00:50:27,232 --> 00:50:30,277
I would say that
and I think funk still had that,
856
00:50:30,277 --> 00:50:33,405
you know, I think he still had that,
that intrinsic connection
857
00:50:34,156 --> 00:50:37,868
And I think most Mennonites
emphasize, yes, this is important.
858
00:50:38,368 --> 00:50:39,745
This is important. Okay.
859
00:50:39,745 --> 00:50:43,415
In fact, their criticism of evangelicalism
is that they're not doing that.
860
00:50:43,749 --> 00:50:47,794
And of course, they're still very strong
against not about Nonresistance
861
00:50:47,794 --> 00:50:51,590
funk himself wrote the first first book.
862
00:50:51,757 --> 00:50:52,507
Our booklet
863
00:50:53,759 --> 00:50:55,969
defending Nonresistance or
864
00:50:55,969 --> 00:51:00,640
arguing for Nonresistance, written
by an American Mennonite in 1864.
865
00:51:01,224 --> 00:51:06,104
Warfare's it's evils, our duties,
and it's a scathing critique.
866
00:51:06,271 --> 00:51:07,731
It's written
right in the middle of a civil war.
867
00:51:07,731 --> 00:51:11,234
It's a scathing critique of Christians
going off to war.
868
00:51:11,234 --> 00:51:15,280
And how that is, is counter to everything
Jesus taught.
869
00:51:15,906 --> 00:51:16,531
All right.
870
00:51:16,531 --> 00:51:19,868
And then what's interesting,
though, is too, that
871
00:51:21,161 --> 00:51:24,164
this, this kind of this new project
that he's launched
872
00:51:24,581 --> 00:51:27,334
and which he's, in a sense,
trying to update the Mennonite church
873
00:51:27,334 --> 00:51:28,794
but still keep it Mennonite,
874
00:51:28,794 --> 00:51:32,631
still keep that some of those older
understandings, importances and so on,
875
00:51:32,923 --> 00:51:36,760
I would say with one of his chief
and a sense almost mentor,
876
00:51:37,219 --> 00:51:41,181
but certainly a compatriot is the Ohio
Bishop, John M Brennaman.
877
00:51:41,765 --> 00:51:47,229
A man of who had great stature
among among Mennonites in the
878
00:51:47,270 --> 00:51:51,525
in the middle of the 19th century,
wrote for Funke’s
879
00:51:51,525 --> 00:51:56,196
Herald of Truth
and some of his articles combined into,
880
00:51:57,197 --> 00:52:00,200
into, booklets and so on.
881
00:52:00,408 --> 00:52:03,245
He at Funke’s urging, he wrote
882
00:52:03,245 --> 00:52:07,541
and the second Mennonite tract
883
00:52:07,541 --> 00:52:11,962
or booklet on nonresistance
called, Christianity and War again.
884
00:52:12,462 --> 00:52:15,173
Very well ably argued.
885
00:52:15,173 --> 00:52:18,176
Exposition of,
886
00:52:18,552 --> 00:52:23,348
of of a Christian Mennonite
understanding of of war
887
00:52:23,348 --> 00:52:27,561
and why we why we should why Christians
should not participate in war and so on.
888
00:52:28,562 --> 00:52:30,730
But he he's
889
00:52:30,730 --> 00:52:35,152
he's a person
who is very much rooted in the older
890
00:52:35,152 --> 00:52:39,865
understandings,
but is open to some selective innovation.
891
00:52:40,532 --> 00:52:41,408
All right.
892
00:52:41,408 --> 00:52:44,661
and he's probably
in the middle of the 19th century,
893
00:52:44,911 --> 00:52:47,873
one of the most,
along with funk, actually,
894
00:52:47,873 --> 00:52:52,043
he wrote more than funk did,
theological kind of articles,
895
00:52:52,043 --> 00:52:55,046
most of which,
of course, appear in Funk's,
896
00:52:55,797 --> 00:52:58,800
Herald or Truth,
both the German and the English versions.
897
00:52:59,009 --> 00:53:02,554
Now, if one looks
at at Brenneman’s letters,
898
00:53:03,513 --> 00:53:05,849
particularly
as letters written in English,
899
00:53:05,849 --> 00:53:07,976
but the English is a little rough.
900
00:53:07,976 --> 00:53:09,269
Okay.
901
00:53:09,269 --> 00:53:13,106
And so I suspect that funke, who was
902
00:53:13,106 --> 00:53:18,153
who had gone to a, what we would refer
to as kind of a high school
903
00:53:18,695 --> 00:53:22,324
in seminary in his home
area in Bucks County, Pennsylvania.
904
00:53:23,283 --> 00:53:26,369
He had more education
than most Mennonites of his day.
905
00:53:26,369 --> 00:53:30,457
Did I have a suspicion that funk,
you know, did him a good work
906
00:53:30,498 --> 00:53:34,502
over, did a good editing of those
which which Brennaman was, was fine with?
907
00:53:34,502 --> 00:53:37,422
You know, he was fine with
he had no problem with that.
908
00:53:37,422 --> 00:53:42,469
But, Burkholder wrote on salvation,
he wrote on
909
00:53:43,428 --> 00:53:47,682
he wrote on Christianity and war
and then probably his seminal
910
00:53:48,683 --> 00:53:50,101
is most important.
911
00:53:50,101 --> 00:53:52,812
One is pride and humility.
912
00:53:52,812 --> 00:53:55,774
And, maybe that'll be, again,
a topic for another.
913
00:53:55,941 --> 00:53:59,277
For another,
the cover that otherwise. But,
914
00:54:00,862 --> 00:54:02,781
and I would say that
915
00:54:02,781 --> 00:54:07,619
in, Brennan's understanding,
I think he does still pretty well.
916
00:54:07,619 --> 00:54:10,622
Hold in tandem the idea of,
917
00:54:11,790 --> 00:54:13,792
how we become Christians,
918
00:54:13,792 --> 00:54:17,045
how salvation happens
and how we're to live.
919
00:54:17,462 --> 00:54:18,672
Okay, he does a pretty good.
920
00:54:18,672 --> 00:54:21,549
I still think he still does
a pretty good job of that.
921
00:54:21,549 --> 00:54:24,928
And again,
you know, his understanding of atonement
922
00:54:25,512 --> 00:54:27,722
is really reflects
that older understanding.
923
00:54:27,722 --> 00:54:30,934
He talks about ransom, talks
about our sins being washed away.
924
00:54:30,934 --> 00:54:34,562
He talks about, about the work
of the Holy Spirit in our lives.
925
00:54:34,562 --> 00:54:38,066
And so I think really,
even though he's open
926
00:54:38,066 --> 00:54:42,279
to some innovation, it's
cautious and it's cautious
927
00:54:42,696 --> 00:54:47,617
and, it's still is pretty well rooted
in that older understanding.
928
00:54:48,285 --> 00:54:49,619
And funk is still too.
929
00:54:49,619 --> 00:54:54,207
But he's more open to innovation,
maybe some newer ideas coming in.
930
00:54:54,499 --> 00:54:58,670
And I would say it's the next generation
that that becomes even more pronounced.
931
00:55:00,672 --> 00:55:04,676
This is
a very helpful survey of the ideas,
932
00:55:04,676 --> 00:55:08,179
the theology, the personalities,
the prominent personalities
933
00:55:08,847 --> 00:55:12,892
influencing Mennonite theology
during those two centuries.
934
00:55:13,852 --> 00:55:17,564
So I observe that
935
00:55:17,564 --> 00:55:21,359
today, many of the various
Mennonite groups in North America,
936
00:55:21,901 --> 00:55:26,031
at least among the Swiss,
originated from divisions
937
00:55:26,031 --> 00:55:29,617
and disunity that happened in the mid
to late 20th century.
938
00:55:30,243 --> 00:55:32,078
And there are, of course, exceptions.
939
00:55:32,078 --> 00:55:36,249
You mentioned the old orders
and some of the things that led to their
940
00:55:37,250 --> 00:55:41,212
the difference of perspectives
in their early days.
941
00:55:42,005 --> 00:55:45,592
is our state of being distributed
942
00:55:45,592 --> 00:55:49,679
across numerous affiliations, conferences,
networks and fellowships.
943
00:55:49,679 --> 00:55:51,222
Novel.
944
00:55:51,222 --> 00:55:55,602
How does this compare and contrast
to the experience of Mennonites
945
00:55:55,602 --> 00:55:58,605
during the first two centuries
in North America?
946
00:55:59,731 --> 00:56:01,358
Well, okay.
947
00:56:01,358 --> 00:56:04,652
So if you look at. If you look at,
948
00:56:06,571 --> 00:56:10,325
At, let's say 18th century, okay.
949
00:56:10,533 --> 00:56:11,534
North America.
950
00:56:11,534 --> 00:56:14,412
Now, first of all,
I think I should frame that by saying
951
00:56:14,412 --> 00:56:18,792
that 16th century Anabaptist,
this is not a monolithic movement.
952
00:56:19,334 --> 00:56:22,420
There are various kinds of Anabaptists
in the 16th century.
953
00:56:22,837 --> 00:56:25,298
Okay. We're
I talked about the Swiss and the Dutch.
954
00:56:25,298 --> 00:56:27,634
There's also the Hutterites,
but then there's some other ones.
955
00:56:27,634 --> 00:56:30,637
There's some graduations
between those, or sort of
956
00:56:30,970 --> 00:56:35,183
not exactly either
Swiss nor Dutch nor Hutterite and so on.
957
00:56:35,558 --> 00:56:39,396
So the diversity, Anabaptist
from the very beginning
958
00:56:39,396 --> 00:56:45,819
was a somewhat diverse
and one could say, fragmented movement.
959
00:56:46,361 --> 00:56:50,407
And now there were groupings,
and the Swiss Brethren is one grouping.
960
00:56:50,907 --> 00:56:54,619
But of course, in 1693 94,
we have a major schism
961
00:56:54,619 --> 00:56:58,623
among the Swiss brethren that results
in the formation of the Amish.
962
00:56:59,082 --> 00:57:02,419
And there the issue has that again,
has the issues
963
00:57:02,419 --> 00:57:06,589
have to do with questions
about essentially church order,
964
00:57:06,589 --> 00:57:11,219
you know, how to practice
the ban is avoidance, to be used or not?
965
00:57:11,219 --> 00:57:14,806
The Swiss Brethren tradition
didn't really include avoidance.
966
00:57:15,557 --> 00:57:19,102
But, Amman, reading the Dordrecht
confession, reading Menno Simons
967
00:57:19,144 --> 00:57:23,648
and so on, came to conclusion
that that should be practiced.
968
00:57:23,648 --> 00:57:24,065
Okay.
969
00:57:25,066 --> 00:57:26,484
And so we have a division, a
970
00:57:26,484 --> 00:57:29,612
fairly significant divisions
happening in 1694.
971
00:57:30,447 --> 00:57:33,408
so severe that,
when they were kicked out of Zurich
972
00:57:33,408 --> 00:57:37,120
in the 1670s, the Amish and, and the ...
973
00:57:37,120 --> 00:57:39,205
parties,
which was the other group was called,
974
00:57:39,205 --> 00:57:42,500
wouldn't really talk with each other
even if they were on the same boat,
975
00:57:42,792 --> 00:57:46,045
going down the, the, Danube,
I mean, the Rhine River.
976
00:57:46,546 --> 00:57:49,549
so the Amish come here
977
00:57:50,341 --> 00:57:53,303
and Mennonites come here.
978
00:57:53,303 --> 00:57:56,514
And then, of course, if you want to think
about the German Baptist
979
00:57:56,514 --> 00:57:59,893
being a new Baptist, group,
980
00:58:00,268 --> 00:58:04,272
who have a lot of commonality with,
981
00:58:05,648 --> 00:58:07,692
with the Amish and with the Mennonites.
982
00:58:07,692 --> 00:58:10,695
I mean, Alexander Mac was reading
Menno Simons.
983
00:58:10,695 --> 00:58:14,782
He knew Mennonites and essentially
their understanding of church
984
00:58:15,033 --> 00:58:19,454
and of of how one should live
the Christian life is very, very similar
985
00:58:19,454 --> 00:58:23,833
to to what Mennonites understanding would
be or what Amish understanding would be.
986
00:58:24,083 --> 00:58:25,043
Okay.
987
00:58:25,043 --> 00:58:30,131
And so and it's interesting
because the, the German Baptist brother
988
00:58:30,340 --> 00:58:33,468
had this kind of idea
that they were the church,
989
00:58:33,927 --> 00:58:38,848
and they also had a theology of baptism
that was really tied up with the mode
990
00:58:38,848 --> 00:58:42,310
that made it important for your salvation
that you were baptized the right way.
991
00:58:42,852 --> 00:58:44,562
But I don't think they always knew
what to do
992
00:58:44,562 --> 00:58:47,690
about these Mennonites in their presence
who were so much like them.
993
00:58:48,066 --> 00:58:49,400
I think that's still the case
994
00:58:49,400 --> 00:58:50,235
of German Baptist
995
00:58:50,235 --> 00:58:53,655
that they really don't know what to do
with plain Mennonite, so and so on,
996
00:58:54,948 --> 00:58:57,951
because we don't baptize the right way.
997
00:58:58,201 --> 00:59:02,580
But but there's sort of this,
sort of this thing which the, the,
998
00:59:02,580 --> 00:59:07,794
the reality of the situation
kind of downplays that a little bit.
999
00:59:07,794 --> 00:59:08,169
All right.
Speaker:
00:59:08,169 --> 00:59:11,172
Even though theologically
that would be kind of where they are.
Speaker:
00:59:11,422 --> 00:59:15,510
So anyhow, so my point is, yes.
Speaker:
00:59:15,802 --> 00:59:18,805
In the, in the 18th century,
Speaker:
00:59:19,180 --> 00:59:21,641
okay, you began to
Speaker:
00:59:21,641 --> 00:59:23,768
I mean, you have two groups, basically,
Speaker:
00:59:23,768 --> 00:59:26,771
of Swiss brethren, the Amish,
Speaker:
00:59:26,771 --> 00:59:30,233
and what becomes known as
what was referred to as Mennonites.
Speaker:
00:59:30,942 --> 00:59:31,818
All right.
Speaker:
00:59:31,818 --> 00:59:35,113
Starting in the 19th century,
you have new groups being formed.
Speaker:
00:59:35,280 --> 00:59:35,905
Okay.
Speaker:
00:59:35,905 --> 00:59:39,242
The first one is the Reformed Mennonites,
John Herr, who never joined
Speaker:
00:59:39,242 --> 00:59:39,951
the Mennonite church.
Speaker:
00:59:39,951 --> 00:59:44,998
His father had been a Mennonite minister,
but had left and had meetings on his own.
Speaker:
00:59:45,331 --> 00:59:48,084
And, John Herr
Speaker:
00:59:48,084 --> 00:59:51,296
came convinced
that the old Mennonite church was corrupt.
Speaker:
00:59:51,296 --> 00:59:56,676
And and so he started a new group
and initially were called New Mennonites.
Speaker:
00:59:57,302 --> 01:00:00,763
Interesting enough,
he picked up on the practice of avoidance
Speaker:
01:00:00,763 --> 01:00:02,015
and something like that.
Speaker:
01:00:02,015 --> 01:00:03,391
And that's a whole discussion.
Speaker:
01:00:03,391 --> 01:00:04,559
I could go on and on for that.
Speaker:
01:00:04,559 --> 01:00:10,106
About the reformed Mennonites, I find them
in an incredibly interesting, movement.
Speaker:
01:00:10,231 --> 01:00:13,234
And the interesting thing is they wrote
so much for such a little group.
Speaker:
01:00:13,359 --> 01:00:16,446
They actually produced more written stuff
than the old church.
Speaker:
01:00:16,446 --> 01:00:18,656
They left, during the 19th century.
Speaker:
01:00:19,616 --> 01:00:21,618
But as far as written,
Speaker:
01:00:21,618 --> 01:00:24,996
material goes, in the 1840s,
Speaker:
01:00:25,330 --> 01:00:29,083
you have two splits
that are on opposite sides.
Speaker:
01:00:29,292 --> 01:00:32,003
Okay. Are two different things.
Speaker:
01:00:32,003 --> 01:00:38,676
One is in 1845, you have a group leaving
Lancaster Conference led by Jacob Stoffer,
Speaker:
01:00:38,676 --> 01:00:43,389
a minister, and, and and I think
I think it's in the Weaver land.
Speaker:
01:00:43,473 --> 01:00:43,806
Yeah.
Speaker:
01:00:43,806 --> 01:00:46,809
Weaver in that area in rural township.
Speaker:
01:00:47,143 --> 01:00:50,980
And it has to do with a whole, set,
a very complicated story.
Speaker:
01:00:51,272 --> 01:00:54,651
But again, that has to do with,
Speaker:
01:00:54,817 --> 01:00:57,695
with a case of church discipline
and so on.
Speaker:
01:00:57,695 --> 01:01:01,574
But again, this is a group
that pulls out an interesting enough.
Speaker:
01:01:01,574 --> 01:01:04,577
It also picks up on Menno Simons and
Speaker:
01:01:05,495 --> 01:01:07,080
the practice of avoidance
Speaker:
01:01:07,080 --> 01:01:10,124
and incorporates that into their,
into their practice and so on.
Speaker:
01:01:10,375 --> 01:01:13,378
And we refer to those today
as the Stauffer Mennonites.
Speaker:
01:01:14,003 --> 01:01:17,131
And but then on the opposite
end of the spectrum,
Speaker:
01:01:17,131 --> 01:01:21,636
you have this group and Franconia,
led by John Oberholtzer,
Speaker:
01:01:22,428 --> 01:01:25,431
who really believes
the church needs to update things.
Speaker:
01:01:25,932 --> 01:01:28,559
so, in 1847,
Speaker:
01:01:28,559 --> 01:01:31,771
he breaks with Franconia Conference.
Speaker:
01:01:31,771 --> 01:01:35,566
He leads a fairly good portion, not all
about maybe a third of the conference.
Speaker:
01:01:36,025 --> 01:01:38,986
Away from
that has some leaders supporting him.
Speaker:
01:01:39,195 --> 01:01:43,991
And so in in southeastern Pennsylvania,
there is the Franconia Conference.
Speaker:
01:01:44,951 --> 01:01:45,952
And then there's,
Speaker:
01:01:45,952 --> 01:01:51,416
what becomes is initially called
the Eastern Pennsylvania conference.
Speaker:
01:01:51,582 --> 01:01:52,291
Okay.
Speaker:
01:01:52,291 --> 01:01:55,628
Distinguished from our current
Eastern Pennsylvania Mennonite church.
Speaker:
01:01:56,087 --> 01:01:56,921
Okay.
Speaker:
01:01:56,921 --> 01:02:00,800
And later on, in the 1860s, joins
Speaker:
01:02:01,217 --> 01:02:06,013
a new organization called the
the General Conference Mennonites.
Speaker:
01:02:06,139 --> 01:02:06,681
Okay.
Speaker:
01:02:06,681 --> 01:02:09,350
And it becomes the Eastern District
of the General Conference.
Speaker:
01:02:09,350 --> 01:02:12,186
Mennonites. Again,
this is a group that is pretty well.
Speaker:
01:02:12,186 --> 01:02:15,565
Is somewhat impacted by evangelicalism.
Speaker:
01:02:15,773 --> 01:02:19,610
But I also would say that that Oberholtzer
Speaker:
01:02:20,737 --> 01:02:24,240
Oberholtzer, thought that
Speaker:
01:02:25,032 --> 01:02:28,703
that how things should be run
should be more formalized.
Speaker:
01:02:28,786 --> 01:02:33,249
He advocated, the
the drawing up a constitution
Speaker:
01:02:34,250 --> 01:02:38,045
for the church that would define roles
and everything like that.
Speaker:
01:02:38,045 --> 01:02:40,006
I mean, it's it's almost more
Speaker:
01:02:40,006 --> 01:02:43,885
not so much evangelical,
but almost very American kind of way
Speaker:
01:02:44,051 --> 01:02:47,722
of thinking about how to associate
and what are the what's
Speaker:
01:02:47,722 --> 01:02:51,100
kind of the the basis of our association
and stuff like that.
Speaker:
01:02:51,601 --> 01:02:54,604
Now, in
the 1870s is when the Russian Mennonites,
Speaker:
01:02:54,979 --> 01:02:57,982
come here, migrate here
Speaker:
01:02:58,608 --> 01:03:01,319
and most of them settle out in the West.
Speaker:
01:03:01,319 --> 01:03:06,407
Most of those, not all of them,
but most of those joined this, this,
Speaker:
01:03:07,450 --> 01:03:09,368
this General conference Mennonite.
Speaker:
01:03:09,368 --> 01:03:10,119
All right.
Speaker:
01:03:10,119 --> 01:03:12,121
And that that introduces
a whole new element
Speaker:
01:03:12,121 --> 01:03:13,873
we're not going to talk about here.
Speaker:
01:03:13,873 --> 01:03:16,626
So you have you have that happening.
Speaker:
01:03:16,626 --> 01:03:19,629
And then during the 19th century,
Speaker:
01:03:19,879 --> 01:03:24,675
you have among the Amish,
sorting out between
Speaker:
01:03:24,675 --> 01:03:28,179
what becomes known as Amish Mennonites
and what becomes known as Old Order.
Speaker:
01:03:28,763 --> 01:03:32,350
And again, some of the same issues
like that Sunday schools.
Speaker:
01:03:32,350 --> 01:03:34,310
What about the translation into English?
Speaker:
01:03:34,310 --> 01:03:36,646
What about the adoption
of other practices?
Speaker:
01:03:36,646 --> 01:03:41,776
The old order say no, we want to stick
by the old way of doing things.
Speaker:
01:03:41,776 --> 01:03:42,568
Okay.
Speaker:
01:03:42,568 --> 01:03:45,530
One of the things that's interesting,
though, is,
Speaker:
01:03:45,696 --> 01:03:48,699
is the issue of stream baptism.
Speaker:
01:03:49,408 --> 01:03:49,992
All right.
Speaker:
01:03:49,992 --> 01:03:53,246
Some, some of the Amish,
Speaker:
01:03:53,913 --> 01:03:57,542
and I think that this is probably
a response
Speaker:
01:03:57,542 --> 01:04:01,212
to the impact of the German Baptist
on on Mennonites.
Speaker:
01:04:01,587 --> 01:04:03,506
It's a whole question of how to baptize.
Speaker:
01:04:03,506 --> 01:04:06,759
And some begin to act
advocates stream baptism,
Speaker:
01:04:06,759 --> 01:04:10,721
which meant that you went down
to the stream and the person
Speaker:
01:04:10,972 --> 01:04:13,850
being baptized knelt down in the stream,
and the bishop
Speaker:
01:04:13,850 --> 01:04:16,853
reached down and brought water up
and poured it over their heads.
Speaker:
01:04:17,019 --> 01:04:20,022
Now that's a really interesting way
of doing things.
Speaker:
01:04:20,189 --> 01:04:23,651
And and some Amish began to advocate that
those who were more
Speaker:
01:04:23,651 --> 01:04:26,779
of the old order minded said, no,
that's not how we've done it.
Speaker:
01:04:26,779 --> 01:04:27,738
That's not.
Speaker:
01:04:27,738 --> 01:04:29,198
And so there was resistance to that.
Speaker:
01:04:29,198 --> 01:04:33,369
So that's, that's an issue that over
I mean, sort of a,
Speaker:
01:04:33,828 --> 01:04:38,457
how do you kind of a catalyst,
for the whole thing?
Speaker:
01:04:38,457 --> 01:04:40,084
I don't think later on it became much,
Speaker:
01:04:40,084 --> 01:04:43,921
I don't think that even the Amish
Mennonites really that was an issue.
Speaker:
01:04:43,921 --> 01:04:45,756
It wasn't that all of them advocated
Speaker:
01:04:45,756 --> 01:04:47,967
doing that personally,
but some of that was the big deal.
Speaker:
01:04:47,967 --> 01:04:49,802
They want to do it that way. That's okay.
Speaker:
01:04:49,802 --> 01:04:51,262
And so on.
Speaker:
01:04:51,262 --> 01:04:53,431
But the Old Order said no to that.
Speaker:
01:04:53,431 --> 01:04:54,307
All right.
Speaker:
01:04:54,307 --> 01:04:57,977
So now the difference between the Amish
Speaker:
01:04:58,519 --> 01:05:02,231
and the and the Amish
Mennonite separations is that
Speaker:
01:05:03,357 --> 01:05:06,360
because of the structure of the Amish,
Speaker:
01:05:07,570 --> 01:05:10,448
the the, the church structure
Speaker:
01:05:10,448 --> 01:05:13,451
of the Amish, which is really focused
on the congregation
Speaker:
01:05:13,618 --> 01:05:17,204
being ultimately the place of authority,
where decisions are made and so on.
Speaker:
01:05:17,622 --> 01:05:21,542
And so you have kind of a network
of congregations that work together.
Speaker:
01:05:21,542 --> 01:05:24,420
And so
but there's really no, umbrella thing
Speaker:
01:05:24,420 --> 01:05:28,174
where they all meet together
and they try to make decisions, now
Speaker:
01:05:28,633 --> 01:05:31,594
as this as these issues developed
Speaker:
01:05:31,594 --> 01:05:34,597
in the 1840s and 50s.
Speaker:
01:05:35,264 --> 01:05:39,143
And I think it's the beginning,
in the late 1850s, in the 1860s,
Speaker:
01:05:39,143 --> 01:05:43,105
that going into the 70s,
there is a series of ministers meetings
Speaker:
01:05:43,105 --> 01:05:47,652
held in different localities in which
they try to solve some of these problems.
Speaker:
01:05:47,735 --> 01:05:49,487
And, and come to some decisions.
Speaker:
01:05:49,487 --> 01:05:51,989
I think that in
reality, what they simply did
Speaker:
01:05:53,032 --> 01:05:56,118
was they
solidified what the differences were.
Speaker:
01:05:56,827 --> 01:05:59,872
And but what happened then is that
Speaker:
01:06:01,332 --> 01:06:04,251
in various areas, okay.
Speaker:
01:06:04,251 --> 01:06:08,673
The, the Amish, Mennonite and Old Order
Speaker:
01:06:09,048 --> 01:06:12,051
separations didn't happen.
Speaker:
01:06:12,677 --> 01:06:14,303
It didn't
they all didn't happen at once, but
Speaker:
01:06:14,303 --> 01:06:17,473
they happened at different times
in different places.
Speaker:
01:06:17,723 --> 01:06:18,349
All right.
Speaker:
01:06:18,349 --> 01:06:21,352
And, and they,
Speaker:
01:06:21,727 --> 01:06:25,022
impact in different communities,
in different ways.
Speaker:
01:06:25,022 --> 01:06:28,567
For example, in Illinois,
almost all the Amish,
Speaker:
01:06:29,151 --> 01:06:33,572
not quite all, but most of the Amish
went with the Amish Mennonites.
Speaker:
01:06:33,948 --> 01:06:34,281
Okay.
Speaker:
01:06:34,281 --> 01:06:38,744
In Pennsylvania, in Lancaster County,
most of the Amish stayed Old Order.
Speaker:
01:06:38,869 --> 01:06:43,165
Now there was a group that did go
with the Amish Mennonites in Ohio.
Speaker:
01:06:43,165 --> 01:06:44,500
It was a mixed bag.
Speaker:
01:06:44,500 --> 01:06:45,543
Okay.
Speaker:
01:06:45,543 --> 01:06:50,506
In Iowa, it's a it's a mixed bag,
but it's actually over about a 30,
Speaker:
01:06:50,506 --> 01:06:54,468
40 year period that this whole thing is
they sort themselves out
Speaker:
01:06:54,677 --> 01:06:58,806
into Amish, Mennonite,
into an old order groupings and so on.
Speaker:
01:06:59,765 --> 01:07:03,144
now with the old Mennonites,
and now they're called old Mennonites
Speaker:
01:07:03,144 --> 01:07:06,147
because we had the Reformed Mennonites,
who initially referred
Speaker:
01:07:06,147 --> 01:07:07,064
to as New Mennonites.
Speaker:
01:07:07,064 --> 01:07:10,276
Then we had the Oberhausen Mennonites,
who are also called New Mennonites
Speaker:
01:07:10,276 --> 01:07:12,820
So we had these various new Mennonite
groups and people
Speaker:
01:07:12,820 --> 01:07:14,321
are referred to as New Mennonites.
Speaker:
01:07:14,321 --> 01:07:18,367
But the Old Mennonites,
okay are organized and conferences.
Speaker:
01:07:18,659 --> 01:07:21,537
And these, these conferences,
Speaker:
01:07:21,537 --> 01:07:25,458
the bishops and ministers and the deacons
get together once or twice a year.
Speaker:
01:07:25,458 --> 01:07:26,876
They talk about issues,
Speaker:
01:07:26,876 --> 01:07:29,879
they make decisions
that are binding on the whole conference.
Speaker:
01:07:30,046 --> 01:07:33,799
And so when a when issues come up,
that's where it's discussed.
Speaker:
01:07:33,799 --> 01:07:35,801
It's discussed at the conference level.
Speaker:
01:07:35,801 --> 01:07:39,472
And oftentimes
because of that, there is kind
Speaker:
01:07:39,472 --> 01:07:43,309
of almost a recognizable break, okay.
Speaker:
01:07:43,642 --> 01:07:47,855
Because the break normally happens
as a result of what had happened
Speaker:
01:07:47,855 --> 01:07:51,275
in a particular conference meeting,
how things are decided or not decided.
Speaker:
01:07:51,776 --> 01:07:56,864
Okay, so in 1872, we have an, Indiana.
Speaker:
01:07:56,864 --> 01:07:59,825
We have an old order group leaving
Speaker:
01:07:59,909 --> 01:08:02,620
or breaking with the larger Indiana,
Speaker:
01:08:02,620 --> 01:08:06,499
Michigan conference and becomes
Speaker:
01:08:06,499 --> 01:08:09,668
known as the Whistler, named
after Jacob Whistler.
Speaker:
01:08:10,086 --> 01:08:12,797
In the 1880s, a similar thing happens
Speaker:
01:08:12,797 --> 01:08:15,841
in Canada in the 1890s.
Speaker:
01:08:15,841 --> 01:08:18,928
A similar thing happens in Lancaster
County,
Speaker:
01:08:18,928 --> 01:08:22,598
Pennsylvania, and then in 1904,
I think it is,
Speaker:
01:08:22,973 --> 01:08:26,310
there's a similar thing
happening in Virginia.
Speaker:
01:08:26,727 --> 01:08:27,770
Okay.
Speaker:
01:08:27,770 --> 01:08:30,189
and also,
I should just mention among the Amish
Speaker:
01:08:30,189 --> 01:08:33,359
Mennonites,
they're not all at the same place either.
Speaker:
01:08:33,526 --> 01:08:34,527
Okay.
Speaker:
01:08:34,527 --> 01:08:37,113
Because, you have
Speaker:
01:08:37,113 --> 01:08:39,657
you have kind of a mainstream
of Amish Mennonites,
Speaker:
01:08:39,657 --> 01:08:43,494
but then you have groups, sometimes
referred to as the Stuckey Amish,
Speaker:
01:08:43,828 --> 01:08:48,707
led by by a bishop
who was more progressive minded.
Speaker:
01:08:48,707 --> 01:08:52,336
And a whole bunch of congregations,
particularly in Illinois, went with him.
Speaker:
01:08:53,587 --> 01:08:55,965
Interesting enough, in the 20th century,
Speaker:
01:08:55,965 --> 01:08:59,510
though, his group had assimilated
to the point that they actually joined
Speaker:
01:08:59,510 --> 01:09:02,596
the General Conference
Mennonite Church, right.
Speaker:
01:09:02,847 --> 01:09:07,268
You have the Egly Amish,
who were very heavily impacted
Speaker:
01:09:07,268 --> 01:09:11,730
by Protestant revivalism
and even holiness teaching later on.
Speaker:
01:09:12,064 --> 01:09:12,898
All right.
Speaker:
01:09:12,898 --> 01:09:17,361
And, they become known
as the Mennonite Brethren in Christ.
Speaker:
01:09:17,361 --> 01:09:21,073
Up in Canada you have a similar
thing happened with Daniel Hawke,
Speaker:
01:09:21,323 --> 01:09:25,536
and then referred to as the Hawke
or the High Mennonites and so on.
Speaker:
01:09:25,536 --> 01:09:29,331
So in the 19th century,
you have all this happening, and it's
Speaker:
01:09:29,331 --> 01:09:32,501
mainly a response
to the introduction of new
Speaker:
01:09:33,085 --> 01:09:35,880
methodologies and ideas.
Speaker:
01:09:35,880 --> 01:09:36,589
All right.
Speaker:
01:09:36,589 --> 01:09:39,925
And, and it doesn't all sort itself out.
Speaker:
01:09:40,467 --> 01:09:43,470
Not, it's, it's not just binary.
Speaker:
01:09:43,596 --> 01:09:48,893
It, it's it can,
it can have kind of graduations to it.
Speaker:
01:09:50,227 --> 01:09:51,604
Actually the period
Speaker:
01:09:51,604 --> 01:09:54,607
as far as, as old man knights go,
Speaker:
01:09:55,357 --> 01:09:57,401
the period from, from,
Speaker:
01:09:57,401 --> 01:10:02,489
let's say 1900 to 1950,
Speaker:
01:10:03,365 --> 01:10:06,368
there's very few splits there among
Speaker:
01:10:06,368 --> 01:10:09,371
what becomes known
as the Mennonite Church.
Speaker:
01:10:10,623 --> 01:10:11,916
Well, that is very helpful.
Speaker:
01:10:11,916 --> 01:10:18,297
Thank you for giving us an overview
of those divisions. And.
Speaker:
01:10:20,341 --> 01:10:24,470
You know, just in general in this episode
I'm wondering if we have bitten off an
Speaker:
01:10:24,470 --> 01:10:28,349
era that is much larger than well
to follow the idiom
Speaker:
01:10:28,349 --> 01:10:31,477
can be chewed
in an episode of this length.
Speaker:
01:10:31,477 --> 01:10:35,147
I imagine so.
Speaker:
01:10:35,731 --> 01:10:40,694
You've mentioned numerous things
that I would like to ask more about, but
Speaker:
01:10:41,946 --> 01:10:44,907
we should begin to bring this episode
to a close.
Speaker:
01:10:45,324 --> 01:10:49,078
And so at this point, I'll ask
if there is anything more
Speaker:
01:10:49,078 --> 01:10:53,040
that you think must be said
before we end this conversation.
Speaker:
01:10:53,624 --> 01:10:57,419
guess that, just briefly,
I should address the whole question
Speaker:
01:10:57,419 --> 01:10:59,046
about Daniel Kaufman.
Speaker:
01:10:59,046 --> 01:10:59,672
I right?
Speaker:
01:10:59,672 --> 01:11:03,926
I mean, you okay,
you mentioned, you mentioned,
Speaker:
01:11:03,926 --> 01:11:07,096
you know, the doctrines of the Bible
came out in 1927.
Speaker:
01:11:07,805 --> 01:11:10,808
Daniel
Kaufman was the editor of that book.
Speaker:
01:11:10,891 --> 01:11:14,770
He wasn't now,
he did write some of the chapters, but he
Speaker:
01:11:14,770 --> 01:11:16,563
it was not all his work.
Speaker:
01:11:16,563 --> 01:11:18,816
He was the editor. And it actually,
Speaker:
01:11:19,775 --> 01:11:21,068
it actually had a
Speaker:
01:11:21,068 --> 01:11:23,862
predecessor in 1914, book
Speaker:
01:11:23,862 --> 01:11:28,534
had come out called Bible Doctrines
and some of the, some of the chapters
Speaker:
01:11:28,951 --> 01:11:31,787
in in doctrines of the Bible
Speaker:
01:11:31,787 --> 01:11:35,291
originated as chapters in Bible doctrines.
Speaker:
01:11:35,291 --> 01:11:35,666
Okay.
Speaker:
01:11:35,666 --> 01:11:38,794
Now there was some revision
and so on of that,
Speaker:
01:11:40,421 --> 01:11:41,046
in that book.
Speaker:
01:11:41,046 --> 01:11:44,925
So in some sense,
the Bible, the, Bible doctrines book,
Speaker:
01:11:45,342 --> 01:11:48,095
it's really
Speaker:
01:11:48,095 --> 01:11:51,098
where some of the language that is framed.
Speaker:
01:11:51,265 --> 01:11:56,520
But even before that, okay,
even before that, Daniel Kaufman himself
Speaker:
01:11:56,520 --> 01:12:00,024
did write a book called Manual of Bible
Doctrine.
Speaker:
01:12:01,233 --> 01:12:02,192
Okay.
Speaker:
01:12:02,192 --> 01:12:07,031
And it's a much smaller book
and some of the theological categories
Speaker:
01:12:07,406 --> 01:12:10,409
that he is using at that particular point
Speaker:
01:12:10,492 --> 01:12:13,162
show up in the later works.
Speaker:
01:12:13,162 --> 01:12:15,956
One of the things that he talks about is
Speaker:
01:12:15,956 --> 01:12:18,876
he he has this
category called restrictions.
Speaker:
01:12:20,044 --> 01:12:21,003
Okay.
Speaker:
01:12:21,003 --> 01:12:24,631
And this primarily deals
with nonconformity issues.
Speaker:
01:12:25,591 --> 01:12:30,095
And,
and this language that then is used later.
Speaker:
01:12:30,304 --> 01:12:31,263
Okay.
Speaker:
01:12:31,263 --> 01:12:35,476
And interestingly enough, in:when the Mennonite
Speaker:
01:12:35,476 --> 01:12:39,438
when the General Conference
of the Mennonite Church, not to be
Speaker:
01:12:39,438 --> 01:12:43,359
confused with the General Conference
Mennonite Church, okay.
Speaker:
01:12:43,525 --> 01:12:46,820
But the General Conference
of the Mennonite Church, which was
Speaker:
01:12:47,321 --> 01:12:52,451
the various conferences of the Mennonite
church, sent delegates to this
Speaker:
01:12:52,451 --> 01:12:56,413
representatives of this
and it it started in the in,
Speaker:
01:12:56,497 --> 01:12:59,500
I think, around 1899.
Speaker:
01:12:59,583 --> 01:13:01,710
I might be wrong there by a year
or two, but,
Speaker:
01:13:01,710 --> 01:13:04,755
in 1921 they adopted at Garden
Speaker:
01:13:04,755 --> 01:13:07,758
City, Missouri, where the conference
is being held that year.
Speaker:
01:13:07,841 --> 01:13:10,094
The the Mennonite Fundamentals.
Speaker:
01:13:10,094 --> 01:13:13,097
And interesting enough,
this was a document
Speaker:
01:13:13,097 --> 01:13:16,100
that actually originated in Virginia,
Speaker:
01:13:16,100 --> 01:13:21,313
and it was a document
drawn up primarily by some
Speaker:
01:13:21,313 --> 01:13:25,401
what I would describe as fundamentalist
Mennonites, people like J.B.
Speaker:
01:13:25,401 --> 01:13:28,779
Smith and A.D Wanger and George R Bronk.
Speaker:
01:13:28,779 --> 01:13:33,367
The first and this all, by
the way, were pre millennials.
Speaker:
01:13:33,867 --> 01:13:36,120
So, you know, but,
Speaker:
01:13:38,080 --> 01:13:40,332
so they're
suspect from the very beginning.
Speaker:
01:13:40,332 --> 01:13:43,669
But, that's a whole different podcast.
Speaker:
01:13:45,671 --> 01:13:47,965
But they,
Speaker:
01:13:47,965 --> 01:13:49,508
but they, they do real.
Speaker:
01:13:49,508 --> 01:13:53,429
And of course, the other thing to keep in
mind is that this is in the midst
Speaker:
01:13:53,720 --> 01:13:59,476
of the whole modernist fundamentalist
controversy in Protestantism in,
Speaker:
01:13:59,935 --> 01:14:02,938
among Protestant churches
in North America, to start with.
Speaker:
01:14:03,480 --> 01:14:06,483
And it is also in the context
Speaker:
01:14:06,733 --> 01:14:12,156
and I think Nathan Yoder's,
dissertation, whose title I can't right
Speaker:
01:14:12,239 --> 01:14:16,785
pull off right now, but his dissertation
does a really good job.
Speaker:
01:14:16,785 --> 01:14:18,537
It's a shame it wasn't ever published,
Speaker:
01:14:18,537 --> 01:14:22,666
but it does a really good job
of describing this period of time.
Speaker:
01:14:23,041 --> 01:14:26,044
And one of the things
that a lot of the older scholarship,
Speaker:
01:14:26,044 --> 01:14:29,756
you know, in 1923,
Goshen College was closed down.
Speaker:
01:14:29,882 --> 01:14:32,801
And Daniel Kaufman played a major role
in closing that that was closed down
Speaker:
01:14:32,801 --> 01:14:36,138
for a period of time
because of theological liberalism.
Speaker:
01:14:36,555 --> 01:14:39,975
Now, some people have argued that really
the question was not theological
Speaker:
01:14:39,975 --> 01:14:44,480
liberalism actually revolved around around
nonconformity issues.
Speaker:
01:14:44,480 --> 01:14:45,939
But as Nathan and and,
Speaker:
01:14:45,939 --> 01:14:48,942
and nonconformity issues
indeed were part of the part of the issue.
Speaker:
01:14:49,109 --> 01:14:54,114
But I came across a number of years ago,
at the Mennonite Historical Association,
Speaker:
01:14:54,114 --> 01:14:55,866
the Cumberland Valley Archives,
Speaker:
01:14:55,866 --> 01:14:59,745
a small collection of the Bishop
and our area buddy, and George Keener,
Speaker:
01:14:59,745 --> 01:15:04,124
who was a bishop from:Speaker:
01:15:04,124 --> 01:15:07,127
or something like that, to the 1930s.
Speaker:
01:15:07,336 --> 01:15:09,963
And then it was this mailing,
I think it was something was sent out
Speaker:
01:15:09,963 --> 01:15:14,760
to Mennonite ministers across the country
and had these postcards in and
Speaker:
01:15:14,801 --> 01:15:18,972
and this is like in the early 20s,
okay, for, for discussion.
Speaker:
01:15:19,264 --> 01:15:20,599
And it showed
Speaker:
01:15:20,599 --> 01:15:24,269
it showed a photograph
of a theater production
Speaker:
01:15:24,269 --> 01:15:28,565
put on at Goshen College and shows the
Speaker:
01:15:28,565 --> 01:15:33,278
the student actors there dressed up
in their theatrical costumes.
Speaker:
01:15:33,820 --> 01:15:37,658
And I would just say,
any Mennonite minister.
Speaker:
01:15:38,242 --> 01:15:41,245
No, I should say most Mennonite ministers
in North America,
Speaker:
01:15:41,245 --> 01:15:44,164
if they saw that in 1920s,
they would have been troubled.
Speaker:
01:15:45,249 --> 01:15:45,666
Okay.
Speaker:
01:15:45,666 --> 01:15:48,335
They would have been troubled
I was troubled when I saw it.
Speaker:
01:15:48,335 --> 01:15:51,338
I said, well, this is really does show
what was going on here.
Speaker:
01:15:51,463 --> 01:15:53,757
These folks had something
to be concerned about.
Speaker:
01:15:53,757 --> 01:15:56,260
But as Nate Yoder shows,
Speaker:
01:15:56,260 --> 01:16:01,139
as Nate Yoder, shows,
there was also theological.
Speaker:
01:16:01,139 --> 01:16:04,142
I mean, the earlier scholarship
said, no, there's no theological.
Speaker:
01:16:04,351 --> 01:16:07,396
This, liberalism
some, Nate Yoder has shown there actually
Speaker:
01:16:07,396 --> 01:16:12,484
was theological liberalism there in the in
some of the faculty
Speaker:
01:16:12,734 --> 01:16:15,529
who were using modernist text
Speaker:
01:16:15,529 --> 01:16:18,365
in Bible classes and stuff like that.
Speaker:
01:16:18,365 --> 01:16:21,910
And so,
one of the most interesting persons,
Speaker:
01:16:21,910 --> 01:16:26,915
again, he's somebody who really deserves
a, biography is John Horst,
Speaker:
01:16:26,915 --> 01:16:30,377
this immigrant who came over in the 1880s
from Bavaria
Speaker:
01:16:30,794 --> 01:16:33,922
and got involved with John F Funk’s
publishing and so on,
Speaker:
01:16:34,339 --> 01:16:37,801
and also is probably the the
Speaker:
01:16:38,135 --> 01:16:43,015
the founder of Mennonite history
Studies here in North America,
Speaker:
01:16:43,056 --> 01:16:48,103
wrote about, wrote and wrote
much about, early Anabaptist, and so on.
Speaker:
01:16:49,396 --> 01:16:50,147
He becomes
Speaker:
01:16:50,147 --> 01:16:54,109
really much taken up
with this whole modernist, fundamentalist
Speaker:
01:16:54,109 --> 01:16:58,572
controversy and writes, writes
books and pamphlets about it and so on.
Speaker:
01:16:59,489 --> 01:17:02,326
But anyhow, this is
Speaker:
01:17:02,326 --> 01:17:05,996
what happens
is that some of these people now, John,
Speaker:
01:17:06,204 --> 01:17:09,666
I should mention that
that John Horst was not a pre millennials.
Speaker:
01:17:09,791 --> 01:17:10,375
Okay.
Speaker:
01:17:10,375 --> 01:17:11,376
So you could be
Speaker:
01:17:11,376 --> 01:17:14,588
you don't have to be a pre millennialist
to be concerned about some of this stuff.
Speaker:
01:17:14,921 --> 01:17:16,548
Okay.
Speaker:
01:17:16,548 --> 01:17:20,010
but what happens then
is that these folks are reading
Speaker:
01:17:20,886 --> 01:17:23,847
essentially fundamentalist literature.
Speaker:
01:17:23,847 --> 01:17:26,850
And some of them have gone to Moody
Bible Institute
Speaker:
01:17:27,017 --> 01:17:30,604
and other fundamentalist colleges,
our Bible schools and so on.
Speaker:
01:17:31,021 --> 01:17:33,690
And so they're carrying with them
some of this,
Speaker:
01:17:33,690 --> 01:17:36,985
some of this language,
okay, some of this language.
Speaker:
01:17:37,527 --> 01:17:40,947
And then that is reflected in the 1921,
Speaker:
01:17:41,990 --> 01:17:44,034
confession of faith,
Speaker:
01:17:44,034 --> 01:17:47,371
which is adopted there, at Garden City.
Speaker:
01:17:47,371 --> 01:17:52,084
And, at the, at the General Conference
meeting and so on.
Speaker:
01:17:52,834 --> 01:17:55,253
Now, interestingly enough,
Speaker:
01:17:55,253 --> 01:17:59,466
I would say that actually,
when it comes to terms of Daniel Kaufman,
Speaker:
01:18:00,217 --> 01:18:03,428
he in a sense is kind of the John
F funk of his day.
Speaker:
01:18:03,804 --> 01:18:04,930
He's cautious.
Speaker:
01:18:04,930 --> 01:18:09,851
He is a genuinely conservative
minded person,
Speaker:
01:18:10,435 --> 01:18:15,065
concerned about traditional definitions
of nonconformity and stuff like that.
Speaker:
01:18:16,108 --> 01:18:19,569
But there does seem to be okay.
Speaker:
01:18:19,778 --> 01:18:24,783
There does seem to be in his writings,
the beginnings of a kind of a
Speaker:
01:18:25,575 --> 01:18:30,455
a divide
between their theology of salvation.
Speaker:
01:18:30,580 --> 01:18:35,836
How long becomes a Christian,
how one is quote unquote saved and their
Speaker:
01:18:36,420 --> 01:18:39,423
the way they live,
what the person is supposed to live.
Speaker:
01:18:39,923 --> 01:18:41,216
Okay.
Speaker:
01:18:41,216 --> 01:18:44,052
and I would say also,
there are other persons
Speaker:
01:18:44,052 --> 01:18:47,180
for whom that divide became
even wider and wider and wider.
Speaker:
01:18:47,180 --> 01:18:50,183
And I would say
that each successive generation,
Speaker:
01:18:50,600 --> 01:18:54,062
okay, each successive generation
after that, the gap
Speaker:
01:18:54,062 --> 01:18:58,400
became wider and wider and wider and wider
until you have
Speaker:
01:18:58,942 --> 01:19:03,155
the situation, have today
and the assimilated Mennonite groups.
Speaker:
01:19:04,322 --> 01:19:05,240
I haven't said everything I
Speaker:
01:19:05,240 --> 01:19:08,243
would like to say about Daniel Kaufman,
because that would be a podcast in itself.
Speaker:
01:19:08,994 --> 01:19:11,788
I like Daniel Kaufman, I really do.
Speaker:
01:19:11,788 --> 01:19:16,376
I like him, he was
he was a mediating force.
Speaker:
01:19:16,376 --> 01:19:19,671
He was a man who was always seeking,
in a sense,
Speaker:
01:19:20,130 --> 01:19:23,383
the various groupings and ideas and so on,
Speaker:
01:19:23,800 --> 01:19:28,263
getting them together to work things out
for the good of the church.
Speaker:
01:19:28,597 --> 01:19:32,434
He was a very conservative
minded person in many ways,
Speaker:
01:19:32,434 --> 01:19:36,021
a very strong advocate of nonresistance,
nonconformity and so on.
Speaker:
01:19:36,271 --> 01:19:40,650
And through his editorship of the Gospel
Herald for almost 30 years,
Speaker:
01:19:40,650 --> 01:19:44,404
I would say 30 years, he
he had a major impact on the church.
Speaker:
01:19:44,404 --> 01:19:46,490
He was he was a giant.
Speaker:
01:19:46,490 --> 01:19:49,826
And, you know,
we don't have giants anymore.
Speaker:
01:19:49,826 --> 01:19:51,328
Like Daniel Kaufman.
Speaker:
01:19:51,328 --> 01:19:54,873
Maybe we shouldn't have had one back then,
I don't know, but he certainly was
Speaker:
01:19:54,873 --> 01:19:55,624
a giant.
Speaker:
01:19:57,125 --> 01:19:58,335
And I,
Speaker:
01:19:58,335 --> 01:20:03,590
I was able to talk to people,
back in the, in the, 1890, I mean,
Speaker:
01:20:03,590 --> 01:20:08,136
in the 1990s, who, as young persons
heard Daniel Kaufman preach.
Speaker:
01:20:09,262 --> 01:20:12,974
In fact, one older
woman told me about how she responded
Speaker:
01:20:13,266 --> 01:20:16,978
at a meeting, a series of meetings
that Daniel Kaufman held
Speaker:
01:20:16,978 --> 01:20:21,316
and made her initial Christian,
decision. So,
Speaker:
01:20:22,734 --> 01:20:24,069
that's probably enough said.
Speaker:
01:20:24,069 --> 01:20:25,320
Okay.
Speaker:
01:20:25,403 --> 01:20:27,948
Well, well,
thank you for introducing us to him.
Speaker:
01:20:27,948 --> 01:20:29,699
Giving a brief overview.
Speaker:
01:20:29,699 --> 01:20:32,369
Again like you mentioned this,
Speaker:
01:20:32,369 --> 01:20:35,622
this deserves much more time
than we're able to give it here today.
Speaker:
01:20:37,165 --> 01:20:40,168
So let's end the episode here in hopes
Speaker:
01:20:40,544 --> 01:20:43,547
of being able to some time
come back and revisit,
Speaker:
01:20:43,964 --> 01:20:47,843
some of these topics that you said
really do deserve more time
Speaker:
01:20:48,593 --> 01:20:52,347
and focus on folks
like Daniel Kaufman with
Speaker:
01:20:53,598 --> 01:20:56,601
greater clarity and at greater length.
Speaker:
01:20:57,686 --> 01:21:01,106
So thank you so much for joining us
for this conversation, Edsel.
Speaker:
01:21:01,940 --> 01:21:02,899
Really appreciate it.
Speaker:
01:21:02,899 --> 01:21:04,818
Thank you. Farewell.
Speaker:
01:21:05,735 --> 01:21:06,903
Thank you so much for listening
Speaker:
01:21:06,903 --> 01:21:10,532
to this episode of Anabaptist Perspectives
with Edsel Burdge.
Speaker:
01:21:11,449 --> 01:21:14,619
If you would like to hear another episode
with Edsel Burdge, we expect to publish
Speaker:
01:21:14,619 --> 01:21:16,204
one in the coming months.
Speaker:
01:21:16,204 --> 01:21:19,958
So subscribe for a complete collection
of episodes.
Speaker:
01:21:20,292 --> 01:21:23,086
Visit anabaptistperspectives.org.