Committed Action

[00:00:00] Ross: Hi there, and a very warm welcome to Season 6, Episode 6 of PeopleSoup, It's Ross McIntosh here.

[00:00:06]

[00:00:06] Self Care

[00:00:06] Richard: So self care is a really good example of that. Self care in one context, you know, So, putting your feet up, having a nap, that's the towards move because you really need it. You're exhausted and you're not going to be good to anyone unless you recharge the batteries. But in another context, putting your feet up and having a snooze when the deadline is rapidly approaching.

[00:00:31] And there's consequences to you missing that deadline, but you're scared of the task. That's the away move. You're trying somehow to get away from it. And a lot of self care is actually doing tough things that benefit us in the long run,

[00:00:46] Ross: Pea Soupers, in this episode I continue my collaboration with Dr. Richard McKinnon that started in Season 5. We're continuing our exploration of the processes of act and psychological flexibility.

[00:00:58] Our PeopleSoup ingredient this week is Committed Action. What it looks like, what can guide us, and how we can bring our personal values to life. If you've ever wondered why you procrastinate, you'll probably relate to our examples and the ways that we can break free of our procrastination. and we finish with an evocative poem that really captures how difficult it can be to take that first step.

[00:01:23] For those of you who are new to PeopleSoup, welcome! It's great to have you here. We aim to provide you with the ingredients for a better work life, from For those of you who are regular PSupers, thanks for tuning in again. We love it that you are part of our community. quick scoot over to the news desk. My McKinnon continues. I am delighted to be joining him for the delivery of an Open Access Blended [00:02:00] Learning course in November. I It's called Thriving with Psychological Flexibility and it's open to all and it's just the ticket to support you in landing well in 2025.

[00:02:10] You'll find all the details for the course in the show notes. Let's crack on. So for now, get a brew on and have a listen to my chat with Richard McKinnon about committed action.

[00:02:24] Richard: What is it we're going to be talking about today?

[00:02:27] Ross: Well, it's the next skill in our ACT Toolkit, which we call Committed Action. It's referred to in the Commitment part of Acceptance and Commitment Therapy. And it's all about how we use our values as a guide to do stuff that really matters for us.

[00:02:45] Richard: Doing. It's a really big part of, of coaching. And I think this is a really important thing to carve out by itself. There's a pitfall that's very easy to fall into when we're developing ourselves, which is to learn the knowing, but not do the doing. Because that can be a little bit more difficult. So this is about taking those practical steps, following through on what we've thought through, living the stuff that's important to us.

[00:03:14] But really importantly, it's not reinventing ourselves or necessarily doing huge things. It can be just small, simple steps.

[00:03:22] Ross: Yeah. Because, folks, you remember last time we spoke about values and how they can act as our internal compass or like a beacon for our behavior. And to, to use that as a guide to how we show up in a valued direction isn't always easy. How can we do that in the, in the moment to adjust our trajectory, perhaps when times get turbulent?

[00:03:47] And maybe when we, come across novel contexts and situations, these values can be a guide, but it's actually translating that value into what we do next, how we [00:04:00] behave. So, should we start unpacking it a bit, Richard? What do we, what do we mean by committed action? Yeah,

[00:04:08] Richard: or a bit scary, actually. So it's, it's the doing of everything we've been talking about, and we can draw upon all of the skills we've spoken about so far, you know, taking committed action or intentional, values aligned behavior is so much more easy when we're actually in the moment.

[00:04:26] when we're bringing our present moment awareness, to where we actually are, because then we can notice and explore our options. But I think intentional is a really important word. It's when we act intentionally rather than automatically, or when we're in autopilot. And there's lots of things we can do on autopilot as we've discussed, but when it matters.

[00:04:49] It's really useful to be in the moment, aware of what matters to us, and then choose to act in accordance with that. And that, that choice is important, and what we do is important, but the doing, it could be different every time, couldn't it? It's not about coming up with rules for behavior. It's about in this context, this behavior, this action is what could be helpful.

[00:05:15] It's going to move me in the direction of what I really want more of in my life.

[00:05:19] Ross: beautifully put. I love how you're linking it back to what we've already been discussing, that noticing what's going around us, perhaps noticing the impact you're having in the world and thinking, how could I respond now to reflect what matters to me, those, values. Because quite often, I think another word you said there was, was habits.

[00:05:40] We all have habits that are almost performed on autopilot. So it's waking up from autopilot and recognizing that it might be an opportunity to express that value in a slightly different way because of the context we find ourselves in.

[00:05:56] Richard: Yeah, when we notice that something has changed around us, [00:06:00] or we notice that there's something that needs doing, or we've been asked to do something, or we're just making that connection with the here and now, options present themselves. We realize that maybe doing what I always do isn't gonna be the most useful thing right now, or maybe I'm noticing more about this situation, which is giving me pause for thought.

[00:06:23] I don't know.

[00:06:23] that a habit is reflective. Of our values because we've chosen to cultivate that habit and they're like the habits are like the gateway drug for this stuff. If we cultivate very small habits that reflect our values, that's a great way of building that awareness of what it feels like to put values in action.

[00:06:44] So I'll reiterate it. This notion of committed action is not about huge showy behaviors. It could be really, really small steps. We just need to be able to make that link between what we're doing and the why we're doing it and link that to the context we're actually in.

[00:07:03] Ross: Yeah, it's like looking through the lens of that value. How could that be applied here in a small way? And I agree, small is beautiful in this context, because sometimes it's natural for us as humans to be overwhelmed by where we want to get to, or perhaps the task or objective in front of us can seem just like insurmountable.

[00:07:23] But thinking what might that first small step be gives us the opportunity to flex that action. And then take those little steps towards what matters. Oh,

[00:07:35] Procrastination

[00:07:35] Richard: maybe I'll bring to life here from my coaching practice, which is the topic of procrastination, which is really common topic and actually committed action. is one of the most powerful levers we can, we can pull or tool we can use from our Cyflex toolkit, because we're doing. What matters intentionally, which is kind of [00:08:00] the opposite of what we do when we're procrastinating.

[00:08:03] We're taking what matters and pushing it away from us for whatever reason. Some, some boredom or lack of clarity on the task or fear of failure, whatever it is, we're pushing it away. And committed action is saying, this is important and I'm choosing to do it. But here's the thing. I'm not choosing to get it all done or be hugely successful or finish the task.

[00:08:25] I'm just choosing to start. And that's that small step. I'm going to open my laptop. I'm going to start reading the document. I'm going to schedule the conversation I need to have. I'm going to gather the paperwork. That's a personal example. I'm going to gather the paperwork that's been piling up and bothering me. I'm not going to get it all done today, but I'm going to start moving in that direction. With concrete action and that in itself can make us feel good about it. And we're more than likely going to continue. Does that, does that example make sense?

[00:08:58] Ross: And I don't know if our, our viewers and listeners will recognize this from, from my life, but you ever have a task that you put off and you put off and you put off and you put off. And then if you're anything like me, the time comes when you just need to get on the horse and do it. And what I've been imagining will take me, maybe in my catastrophic mind, will take me at least a day and a half and will be really complex and it will be so onerous and unpleasant.

[00:09:30] I'm surprised that I'm finished in 20 minutes. And it wasn't that bad at all, but the, the things my mind has generated around it, I've bought into and I will take the action that takes me away from all of this. I will take that action to maybe go and tidy out that kitchen cupboard. Something I would never do in my normal existence.

[00:09:52] Or maybe go and um, weed the garden. Or all these sort of displacement activities. Or eat a biscuit. [00:10:00] All these things that bring me that short term relief, but are in no way taking me towards what I really want to do and tackle. And it kind of like a vicious cycle where I just keep, Oh,

[00:10:13] Richard: Because you're doing something, you're active, it's just not in the direction of travel that's going to really benefit you. Or, it's just simply necessary. You know, some things in life are just necessary. We don't like them, we don't enjoy them. And I think maybe that's the first misunderstanding I'd flag when it comes to committed action.

[00:10:34] Maybe the second, after big showy things. Maybe the second is that it then makes the task enjoyable. I don't know. It doesn't, it doesn't. we're just doing it. We're not waiting for the confidence or waiting for the joy or waiting to have done everything else. We're doing the stuff that matters.

[00:10:53] The image I share with my clients to sort of bring this to life, this might be a bit of a stretch, but if you can picture a road goes into a village and as you drive into the village, you get stuck there because there's lots going on. There's a market, there's other Cars on the road, there's maybe horses at the fair and all this stuff.

[00:11:14] Well, You're stuck and you're not going to be able to get to the other side unless someone builds a bypass Around that village completely and the traffic can just go around it when we emphasize committed action We're building a kind of a mental bypass Around the discomfort around the boredom around the fear i'm like it's still there But we're choosing to just keep going in an efficient way And we don't have to take care of that stuff.

[00:11:42] We just have to focus on Does that, is that image even vaguely, um, reminiscent of your understanding of this? And

[00:11:57] Ross: because I think about Let's take an [00:12:00] example, a concrete example. Tax returns. I, I now look back on my tax returns in the UK with great fondness because here in Spain, geez, it's complicated and it's in another language.

[00:12:12] So, so I will tend to procrastinate on that. But this all fits together for me, this metaphor, because thinking about my town with processions and pilgrimages, like more or less on a daily basis. Thinking about that bypass and how I can just start taking those small steps to gather the receipts, gather the invoices, read the guidance in Spanish, and try and make sense of it, then, that, that re really resonates with me as a, as a way forward.

[00:12:40] Richard: forward is our word du jour. I mean, it, this is another thing that, um, our binary way of looking. at the world, often gives us options that sound like right versus wrong or success versus failure. And if we, if we look at the world through that lens, then of course you're going to slow ourselves down because if I'm not successful, I'm going to be a failure at this, or if it's not right, it's wrong.

[00:13:07] And so inaction can be quite comfortable. But instead, if we phrase things in terms of the direction of travel. We're not saying completion, success, or fun. We're saying, but it's in that direction, and you can take the first step now, rather than you have to have it all done. It must be successful. It must be correct.

[00:13:29] It's like, no, you just start and move towards what matters. And that takes a lot of the weight off our shoulders, doesn't it? Yes.

[00:13:37] Ross: Yeah. And, and you remind me of a poem, which I'll probably come back to, to later about taking that first step, which I think really speaks to that, that discomfort, but also the motivation and the impetus to choose to take that first step. Richard, I've got a couple of examples, which I trailed in our last episode about when I was working with a group [00:14:00] of teachers and then.

[00:14:01] It was over four sessions and in that first session we did a card sort, a values card sort. And I think I, I, I positioned it as a, as a temptation to come back and listen to this episode as one of the teachers had chosen the value of patience and one of them had chosen the value of adventure. So the challenge for them between that first session and the second session was go away and have a go at bringing that to life in the classroom.

[00:14:26] their behavior. And the examples just stick with me. So, so one was the patients. Let's take the patients first. It was a lady with, youngish children. And she described a moment where she caught herself in the moment. The children were misbehaving. And as she described it, she was about to go into one.

[00:14:49] And she noticed her hand raised. And then, something just clicked in her brain and she thought, ooh, the value of patience. And so, rather than going into a bit of a rant, she did something entirely different which reflected this value of patience. And I haven't done it credit or justice, but the way she explained it was just a totally different behavioral shift for her. That knowing in herself that that had meaning and significance for her. And I asked, well, how did the children respond? And the children responded by going, Huh? Mom? What's happening? Because they were expecting to get a bit of a row. So that, that for me just illustrates how if we can be alert and catch ourselves in flight, we can become more alert.

[00:15:41] Adapt, agile, at adjusting our behavior. And then the second one was adventure, this, this guy had chosen the value of adventure. And he was, he was reporting back the following week and he said adventure to him meant going and camping on the moors near where [00:16:00] he lived when he was a kid and he used to love doing that.

[00:16:02] And what his mind was telling him. is that he couldn't go and do that because he had a girlfriend and a son and they would think he was being selfish but he actually took a small step and that small step was chatting to his girlfriend about hey I'd really like to to do that again when I used to do as a kid go camping on the moor and she was like oh that's a great idea.

[00:16:27] I think, I think it would really give you that, that sort of reliving of your memory, but also that connection with nature. And so, sort of emboldened by that, he went to speak to his son as well. He was like, Hmm, can I come with you? And he was like, wow, what's happening here? So he, he, he described it to his girlfriend and his son.

[00:16:47] And then over that week, he'd put some of his belongings that he no longer uses, up for sale on eBay with the intention of using that money to buy some camping equipment. And for me that was just kind of mic drop. That is, that is committed action. That is values led action. It didn't end up with him in a tent on the moors, but you see that small steps towards it.

[00:17:13] I think they just really resonate with me, those examples. They really stick with me.

[00:17:18] Richard: they're lovely. They're very simple and And the first one, especially Patience, it's like that behavioral pivot in the moment, you know instead of doing what I've always done I'm just going to try and be a bit more agile and try something different Again, it doesn't guarantee success We're being experimental about this.

[00:17:39] We're just trying to figure out what it is that works rather than do what we've always done, respond automatically. Or, as we touched on last time, being really clear on our values. but not bringing them to life at all. They exist as ideas, not behaviors. And, and, uh, as I bang [00:18:00] on about all the time, it, it's what we do with our values that really matters because otherwise they might as well just be filed away and locked in a safe and they're, they're never going to see daylight, but it doesn't have to be life changing.

[00:18:14] And yet we both know that when people consistently make those small steps, it feels good and there's a good chance they'll do more of it. And they'll notice other opportunities to take small steps in alignment with other values or towards really meaningful goals. And the steps they take might be tough or difficult or new or ambiguous, but they know why they're doing it, which is really important.

[00:18:41] You know, when you're doing new things. Or doing uncomfortable things. Why am I doing this in the first place? And this focus is no longer on, or we're reducing the focus on how awkward or uncomfortable is this, and instead we're focused on direction of travel, alignment with values, or moving towards goals, or meaningful outcomes.

[00:19:05] We're not getting rid of that discomfort, which is a big trap we can fall into. You know, I need to feel confident before I can do the thing, or I need to feel brave before I can ask the question. we're, we're investing in the behavior and it's not that the discomfort goes, but you know what, if we pay less attention to it, it's almost as if it has, but we're, we're not putting our energy into removing the discomfort first.

[00:19:33] We're putting our energy into action and more and more action, more and more action. We don't, yeah, we don't listen to the discomfort as much.

[00:19:41] Ross: I like the way you talk about energy as well, Richard, that can choose where we direct that energy. And if we're directing it towards those small steps, it gives us more data to think, Oh, is this still taking me towards what matters? Can I, can I regard this with kind of a curiosity, an experimental stance?[00:20:00]

[00:20:00] And, and consider each step like that and it becomes, it becomes like a kind of snowball effect that we

[00:20:06] Richard: That's it.

[00:20:07] Ross: gather momentum and direction towards what matters.

[00:20:13] Richard: So I've had feedback from coaches over the years when using these tools. And, and I try to be consistent in pointing out that confidence comes from doing. We don't magically get confident before we try something new. Or if we're waiting on that, we're going to be waiting for a very long time. And I've coaches come back and say, no, I feel really confident about this now.

[00:20:37] I said, yeah, but you, you tried, you got feedback, you had a go, you realized it wasn't a nightmare or you weren't terrible at it, or at least you found out how much better you need to be at this skill, but you had to take some action before you could realistically gauge how you felt about it. Because without action, what we're actually estimating is how what our mind tells us it's going to be like.

[00:21:02] And as we said before, often that's way out of whack, really catastrophizing the situation or talking us down or all the other ways our mind can be a nightmare. So we kind of need to let the rubber meet the road. And then we can say, I don't feel confident. Okay, fine, that's legitimate, you had to go. But it's the doing that enables us to gather some, some data and think, think like a scientist about it.

[00:21:29] Ross: Yeah, I love, I love that example because it resonates with a coaching client of mine who had a promotion, a new job, and he had a team that was based in several locations, but there was a hub where he could go and choose to travel and sit with his team, maybe for two days a week. And he found he was resistant to that because he was not feeling that.

[00:21:51] the word confident in his new roles and he thought he needed to work on building that before he went and sat with his team and in our first session together [00:22:00] we explored it and then later that week he went and sat with his team for two days and he found it supremely uncomfortable and recognized that he was taking those steps towards what matters and fulfilling his His ambition and vision for how he could be in that role.

[00:22:18] So yeah, it's that we often think we need to wait until, but that's a false promise that we tell ourselves.

[00:22:27] Richard: and it helps us engage in the opposite of our towards moves, which, you know, the audience have probably figured it out. We call away moves, you know, the behavior that we exhibit in an effort to minimize or reduce the discomfort. Your displacement activities were a great example. Isn't it interesting how busy we can be when we're putting something off?

[00:22:52] You know, when we procrastinate, we rarely sit there doing nothing. So we're doing other things to avoid some discomfort. They're not moral failings. We haven't failed at life. But if we can be honest with ourselves, we say, yeah, I'm trying to get away from this temporary discomfort. I'm not moving towards the thing that I've said to myself is really meaningful and important.

[00:23:17] And this towards versus away, I find is an incredibly powerful way of looking at almost any situation we can find ourselves in because it reframes it for us from those evaluative binaries to something that's direction of travel, which is sometimes it's not as frightening. It's not as demanding.

[00:23:39] Would you say?

[00:23:40] Ross: Yeah. I think you're right. Using that, those, the concept of towards in a way is super powerful and, uh, The, the surprise for some people is they think towards moves are going to be easy. It's going to be an absolute breeze representing this stuff in my behavior that really matters to me. And those away moves are [00:24:00] going to feel a bit rubbish.

[00:24:02] Quite often it's, it's absolutely the opposite. If I decide oh, rather than do, for example, the tax return, I'll go and have couple of hobnobs, and then I maybe, I think I'm obsessed with biscuits Richard, but then maybe I have another one and I just think, oh this is marvellous, I deserve this. Let me just kick back, maybe I'll watch a bit of telly too.

[00:24:27] Maybe, you know, just look after yourself mate. And there's times when that would be the right thing to do, but times when I'm, if I'm putting off that sort of tax return, it's really taking me away from that. who I want to be in that moment, and it can feel marvellous.

[00:24:47] Richard: these away moves. They bring us relief from discomfort. Why would you not want to do that? Because it's short term The source of the discomfort isn't going anywhere. The world is not waiting for us You Things are moving on, and sometimes all we've done is briefly avoid the inevitable.

[00:25:08] But we've also set ourselves up to feel doubly bad. I didn't do the thing, and I realized I could have done the thing, and now I feel bad about the delay. So now I've got multiple things to feel bad about. Um, which, no one needs more of that in their life. So, you, you make an incredibly important point.

[00:25:27] Towards isn't easy. Away isn't difficult. Towards can be demanding. Towards can be tough. And away can be very enticing. It's that, you know, hitting the snooze button on our alarm clock. Very enticing. We get five more minutes in bed, but all it's doing is setting us up for being late for that important thing.

[00:25:49] And that's really not who we want to be.

[00:25:52] Ross: yeah, it's, it's so powerful. So how would we invite people to make a [00:26:00] start with experimenting with this skill, Richard?

[00:26:02] Richard: So, action. We don't need to call it committed action. That can sound a bit demanding in itself. It's the doing, it's your values in action. I work with my clients to help them understand the contextual nature of towards in a way, first of all. So it's not rules and the same behavior could be a towards move in one context and it could be in a way move in another.

[00:26:28] Self Care

[00:26:28] Richard: So self care is a really good example of that. Self care in one context, you know, So, putting your feet up, having a nap, that's the towards move because you really need it. You're exhausted and you're not going to be good to anyone unless you recharge the batteries. But in another context, putting your feet up and having a snooze when the deadline is rapidly approaching.

[00:26:52] And there's consequences to you missing that deadline, but you're scared of the task. That's the away move. You're trying somehow to get away from it. And a lot of self care is actually doing tough things that benefit us in the long run, not hopping in the bubble bath with a big glass of wine or spending the evening in front of Netflix.

[00:27:14] That's not self care if there are more important, meaningful things for us to do. So to circle back, once clients understand the contextual nature, then I, I work with them to help them understand that whatever they're doing, they can pause and say, what might be the towards option here? What might be the away move here?

[00:27:36] And to practice doing that in the supermarket. As they're taking food off the shelf. What are these things that represent who I want to be? Is that massive bag of crisps representative of the kind of person that I want to be? Or looking at the menu in a restaurant? Or looking at their gym bag? I sort of woefully am wondering, should I go to the gym?

[00:27:57] It's these little moments where we, we [00:28:00] can reconnect and clarify for ourselves. Oh yeah, that's the towards move. It's, it's actually quite clear. Flexing that muscle. Even if you don't act, enables you to get clarity on what the options look like. And even if you still do the away move, I say you've won a prize, because you've seen it for what it is. And maybe it's been years of doing this. It's not going to be unpicked in an afternoon. But at least you're seeing your options differently. And then the next step is, yeah, those small little steps in the direction, to see what that is like and what difference that makes. Not aiming for the life changing decisions, not aiming for the personal reinvention, but more just move in that direction, small step, and see what it's like.

[00:28:46] Ross: Richard, it's great to hear you talk about the towards and away move. And even, I love that what you're saying, that when we notice an away move, can that be a cue for us to reconnect with what matters and, and try and think what a towards move would look like in the next moment.

[00:29:04] Richard: not pass fail, not self criticism, but rather more opportunities to try something different.

[00:29:11] Ross: And Richard, I think I've got a couple of things I'd like to share. One quote and one poem. think this is the first time we've done a poem in our collab. But they both speak to what we've been discussing. And the quote is from a chap called Kelly Wilson, who's one of the kind of founders of acceptance and commitment therapy and psychological flexibility.

[00:29:32] And I think it's from a book called Mindfulness for Two by Kelly Wilson. But he makes that point that, let me just share this quote. No one lives in accordance with their values all the time. Some days, some moments, we will be well oriented within that pattern of living by our values. Other days, other moments, we'll find ourselves at odds with our values. In that moment, the moment in which we notice that we're out of [00:30:00] alignment with our values, can we pause, notice our dislocation, and gently return?

[00:30:06] It's difficult to imagine a value of any magnitude that will not involve a lifetime of gentle returns.

[00:30:13] Richard: That's lovely. And gentle returns is such a nice way of putting it. Just bring, bringing yourself back to reorient rather than, Ah, what's the point? I've not done it.

[00:30:26] Ross: Yeah, and kind of punish ourselves. We're encouraging an attitude of kindness and curiosity.

[00:30:32] Richard: Mm, exactly.

[00:30:34] Ross: Now viewers, listeners, are you ready for a poem? I think we'll just go for it. But it struck me as you were talking earlier. And it's a poem called Start Close In by David White, which some of you may have come across, but I thought I'm going to have a go at reading it out to see what you think. So here we go.

[00:30:54] Start close in. Don't take the second step or the third. Start with the first thing close in, the step you don't want to take. Start with the ground you know, the pale ground beneath your feet, your own way of starting the conversation. Start with your own question. Give up on other people's questions.

[00:31:16] Don't let them smother something simple. To find another's voice, follow your own voice. Wait until that voice becomes a private ear listening to another. Start right now. Take a small step you can call your own. Don't follow someone else's heroics. Be humble and focused. Start close in. Don't mistake that other for your own.

[00:31:43] Start close in. Don't take the second or the third step. Start with the first thing close in, the step you don't want to take. And that's from David White. And I just love the way that, for me, that represents what we've been chatting [00:32:00] about, Richard.

[00:32:01] Richard: It really does, because so much of the time we're tempted to think about steps three, four, five, and six, and how that's going to be tough, when actually, all you really need to do is that first one. And it reminds me of, you know, working with this topic of procrastination. You know, the advice people give is often just make a start, which in part is helpful, but unless you acknowledge why that's helpful and the direction of travel, you're kind of doing it with gritted teeth and maybe, you know, annoyance, and maybe you're not bringing your full attention to that thing.

[00:32:36] So being clear on, yeah, make a start because that's important, or make a start because it's meaningful to you. It's that first step. And as it's been pointed out to me in workshops over the years, It's quite difficult physically to just take one step, isn't it? So actually, once you've done that first one, often the other steps follow.

[00:32:57] That's a lovely poem. Thank you for sharing.

[00:32:59] Ross: That's it folks. My chat with Richard on committed action in the bag. This is shaping up to be a great series and we'll be back with the next installment in three weeks time. But for next week, I'm delighted to welcome Debbie Sorenson to PeopleSoup To talk about her brilliant book, Acts for Burnout. I can't wait to share it with you. You'll find the show notes for this episode at peoplesoup. captivate. fm or wherever you get your podcasts. If you like this episode, we'd love it if you told us why. You can email me at People soup dot pod@gmail.com.

[00:33:37] On Twitter, we at Ross McCoach on Instagram people dot Soup, and on Facebook we are at People Soup Pod. You can help me reach more people with the special people soup ingredients, stuff that could be really useful to them. So, please do share, subscribe, rate and review. It helps us get recognised and rise up in the chart positions. Thanks [00:34:00] to Andy Glenn for his spoon magic. And Alex Engelberg for his vocals. But most of all, dear listener, thanks to you. Look after yourselves, Peasoopers, and bye for now. If I decide oh, rather than do, for example, the tax return, I'll go and have couple of hobnobs, and then I maybe, I think I'm obsessed with biscuits Richard, but then maybe I have another one and I just think,