I feel stuck in a certain stage of business.
Why don't they just get it?
But just like in any relationship, sometimes when you go inwards
and you look at like, wait, what is it that I'm not getting?
What do I need to change about how I communicate, about how I show up?
It can change a whole dynamic of a relationship.
And we forget that that's the same with your customers and with your audience.
Figuring out what it is that you need to change to communicate better to them.
And you know, just seeing them again as that individual person is what
can really shift and change that whole dynamic of a relationship.
Welcome to the e-Commerce podcast with me, your host, Matt Edmundson.
Now, the E-Commerce podcast is all about helping you deliver e-commerce.
Wow.
And to help us do just that today I'm gonna be chatting
with Monica Sharma-Patnekar.
Uh, about discovering the human element behind the numbers.
It's an intriguing title.
I can't wait to get into it.
But before we dive into our discussion, uh, let me share with
you my previous podcast pick.
Oh yes, A previous podcast episode that I think you'll enjoy.
And yes, there's a lot of P's in that.
Uh, so check out, uh, top content marketing advice for your online business,
uh, from Tim Hughes, or check out from Startup to Growth with Maureen Mwangi.
Another great episode.
You can get, uh, access to my podcast picks.
Or our entire podcast archive for free on our website at ecommercepodcast.net.
Plus, if you sign up to, uh, our newsletter, we'll send you the
links to our podcast picks, along with the notes, and of course, the
links from today's show with Monica.
They all get delivered straight to your inbox at no cost to you,
which is pretty amazing now.
I'm sure you've come across right, a bunch of folks stuck
with their e-commerce business.
You may even be one of them.
You may have got siloed like I did, uh, working on just one or two areas of
your business and miss the big picture.
Well enter e-commerce cohort to solve this problem.
It's a lightweight membership group with guided monthly sprints that cycle
through all the key areas of e-commerce.
Yes.
The sole purpose of cohort is to provide you with clear actionable jobs to be
done so you'll know what to work on and get the support to get it done.
So whether you are just starting out an e-commerce or if like me, you're
a well established e-commercer.
Or a bit of a dinosaur, as some people like to say.
Uh, I encourage you to definitely check out ecommercecohort.com.
That's ecommercecohort.com, especially if you're in E-com.
I mean, just go and check it out.
Have a look.
Let me know what you think.
It's awesome.
I'm in there every month.
Uh, we've got some great people doing some great coaching in there as well.
Uh, some amazing stuff's come out of the last few weeks, but do check it out.
Okay.
Let's talk about Monica.
She is an e-commerce brand mentor and consultant, a purpose-driven digital
brand, marketing and strategy professional with, check this out, 17 years of
global experience building brands.
She's worked across diverse sectors from companies, uh, and companies from
Fortune 500 to scale, and startups.
In other words, the ideal guest for the show.
Oh, yes, Monica, welcome to the show.
Great to have you all the way from sunny Amsterdam at least.
I hope it's sunny.
How are you doing?
Hi Matt.
Thanks for having me on.
Yes, I'm, I'm all good.
It's sunny now after Stormy nights.
Oh, well, it's good for you.
It's not sunny here.
At least it's not raining.
I suppose that's a, that's a, that's a bonus, isn't it, here in Liverpool.
Yeah.
So have you, have you always been native to Amsterdam or have you, have you
sort of arrived there at some point?
No.
So, well, native to Holland.
I'm born and raised here.
I was a Indian by Heritage, that's by birth.
Um, grew up in Behague.
My family's all there, but I've been living in Amsterdam for
over 10, 11 years now as well.
So yeah.
Oh, fantastic.
Fantastic.
Uh, lovely part of the world.
Uh, and definitely put on tourist.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
No, that's awesome.
That's awesome.
So, With your experience in sort of building purpose driven brands, Monica,
I'm curious to know, how do you think tapping into the sort of the human aspect
of brand growth can lead to say, a more sustainable and successful business in
today's fast-paced e-commerce landscape.
That's a heck of a first question.
So let's just jump straight in.
That's, that's a very big first question.
There's so much I can say about that.
So, uh, let me dive in.
I think one, I think you, like you said, you, you said it, you know, the
fast-paced e-commerce world, and I think over the last few years, decade.
It has become such a huge numbers game, right?
Yeah.
Um, no so much.
If this is your conversion rate?
This is the traffic.
What should we tweak to do that?
Sometimes it feels like it's, a little game.
You know, what can you tweak to just increase those numbers?
And yes, numbers are important in business.
You need to know your numbers.
But if we just take a step back and just think about it from the bigger picture,
depending what stage of business you are at, you're either getting, I don't
know, a thousand, 5,000, 10,000 website visitors, and that's how we look at it.
Like, oh, traffic coming in, but that's a thousand, 5,000,
10,000 individual human beings.
Coming to your site on a monthly basis, and imagine the ones interacting
with you on social media, reading your emails, clicking through
individual actual human beings.
Now, if you had those people walking into a store or an event that you were
speaking at, how would you interact with them, you know, as humans?
We wanna be seen, we wanna be understood.
We wanna be heard, and, people buy from brands that, that, that do that for them.
You know, that they can relate to.
And the biggest brands in the world you'll see are the ones that are able
to tap into that because people buy.
Especially in higher price category.
You know, not the daily grocery shopping I'm talking about, but
actually those things that are the once in life because of how it makes
them feel, and being able to recognize that these are actually individual
human beings coming to their site.
I always challenge people like, how would you speak to them if that's how you
started, if that's how you thought about it, what would you be telling them versus
just seeing those as a, as another number on your website or in your analytics?
Yeah, that's a very good point.
It's funny, isn't it?
Cuz you, I was talking to someone about this the other day in the sense that
we've had, um, we, we were talking about one of the YouTube videos we've put out.
Yeah.
That's had, um, I put it out.
It was honestly, uh, Monica, it was the simplest YouTube video.
I, yeah.
Anyway, we put out this video, it's two and a half minutes long
about how to create a PowerPoint.
I think I put it out like 10 years ago.
Do you know what I mean?
I, I, it was a long time ago, isn't it?
Yeah, it's well outta date.
Let me just tell you because PowerPoint has evolved, but I put this video out
and it's had over a million views, right?
Yeah.
And I was talking to somebody about that the other day.
That's a million people.
Yes.
Have watched the video and I'm thinking, you know, when I go and watch
Liverpool, I'm a bit of a Liverpool fan cuz I, I, let's not go anyway.
Uh, when I go to the stadium, there's 50,000 people in that stadium.
Yeah, exactly.
That's 20 thou, uh, 20 times that amount of people have watched my video, and
that's just one of the videos and it blows my mind when you think about it like that.
E.
Exactly.
And that's my point.
And so often we are busy thinking like, you know, oh, those people are not
getting our message, or they're not understanding, how do I find more of them?
Or I feel stuck in a certain stage of business.
Why don't they just get it?
But just like in any relationship, sometimes when you go inwards
and you look at like, wait, what is it that I'm not getting?
What do I need to change about how I communicate, about how I show up?
It can change a whole dynamic of a relationship.
And we forget that that's the same with your customers and with your audience.
Figuring out what it is that you need to change to communicate better to them.
Mm-hmm.
And you know, just seeing them again as that individual person is what
can really shift and change that whole dynamic of a relationship.
And I think sometimes that's where we've skewed too much to the numbers.
You know, we need to find that balance between the two and find Okay.
That Midway and I, I'm seeing that happening.
I'm finally seeing Facebook ad experts now talking about, oh wait,
we need to understand the customer.
The algorithm is no longer working for us.
It's, it's about the messaging now.
We can't just expect things.
So you're seeing this conversation finally starting to happen and I'm so happy about
that, but I just, but I still see a lot of people hesitant to do that and I say,
I really challenge, I want to take that step back and just think of each person
as an individual human being coming to your store that you are able to speak to.
Yeah.
Now it's a fair point.
I think just if you look at your daily traffic numbers and then go, okay, I've
had whatever, a thousand, 2000 people, if you imagine those 2000 people in
an arena, um, just sort of walking through, it's kind of like you're
gonna change how, you're not gonna be tolerating necessarily the stuff on
your website that you probably should be tolerated anyway, you said that.
Um, You said that this makes you super happy, right?
That, that this sort of more of a recognition in this area.
Yes.
Why does that make you super happy?
What sort of drives you in this whole area?
Well, I think what we forget is that, you know, business or anything in life.
I mean, in that essence, it it's about customer relationship.
It's all about relationships, right?
And, uh, we are so focused on that really quick ROI, quick return on investment.
Whereas we forget that business is a long-term game, right?
To build any.
To build a long term sustainable, profitable business, it takes time, right?
I can, I can quote a lot of things.
It takes on average three years to build a profitable business or break even.
Even if I look at some of the largest businesses in the world that we
all admire, some of them not even profitable or cashflow positive, right?
Yeah.
So, but still everybody's like, what can I do now to see.
10 times our way in the next 30 days and what we need to take that step back, it's
really about building those relationships for the long term and customer loyalty
and, you know, just speaking to people as human beings and saying, okay, how
do I, what do they need to hear from me?
How do I guide them to the customer journey?
How do they help them and understand better what my product are about and
what I do and why it would help them.
and for me, it's really about building those long-term sustainable
and profitable businesses.
And not just that one-time fly by night, business that may shut down
in the next six months to a year.
And also as a business owner, to be able to have fun in your business.
not just surviving, but really thriving and having some fun whilst doing it and
growing that business is gonna help you sustain whatever lifestyle you want.
Yeah.
No, I'm a big fan of having fun, uh, in business.
Yes.
Uh, we should do a whole podcast on that one day.
Just so how to have fun in business.
Yes.
Because I feel like that's a bit of a lost art in itself.
You know, everyone's got a little bit too serious.
And you're just like, no, it's fine.
It's okay.
It's okay to have a bit of fun.
Uh, exactly.
You don't have to be Google.
Uh, that was the other thing that I noticed.
Everybody was like, well, you know, Google's fine.
They can do the fun things cause they're a big enough company.
You're like, no, no, no, no, no.
You can do it cause you're small.
I exactly.
I, I don't think a lot of the businesses are only urging the fun things.
That, that's the opportunity we have as a small business owners to
really connect with your customers and have some fun doing it.
So what have you seen then, um, as we're talking about fun?
Cuz I, I, I could wax lyrical about this all day.
Genuinely.
Um, what sort of things have you seen, or what sort of things do you perceive to
be fun then when it comes to customers?
How, how can we do that?
First of all, it's really, really going back to fundamentals,
getting to know your customers.
Um, the one thing I think people still don't do enough, and I have
seen this create real shifts in people's, not just businesses, but
mindset and how they start showing up.
But really going back to understanding who your customer really, really is.
Uh, You know, what are the core needs, wants and desires?
Why are they buying?
And then looking at, okay, how do I deliver that and what's
the value I add I bring to it?
Um, but just even having those customer conversations, it's those
cus deep dive customer interviews is when I start people seeing having a
little more fun in their business.
They're like, oh, okay, this is who I'm doing it for.
This is what they really want.
It's not what I thought.
Uh, and it just changes how you completely show up.
Yeah.
No, fair.
Uh, very good.
Very true.
But, um, so the, the getting to know your customers aspect of it, um, you mentioned
they're doing, uh, customer interviews.
Is that what you do?
Is that the, is that the route I'm gonna go down to get to know my customer?
Yes, absolutely.
Of course there are things you can do around it.
You know, there's, there's, there's your analytics that will show you information.
It's always great to dive into all the testimonials, reviews,
any content, any conversations you've had, and even surveys.
But they don't allow you to dive deeper into motivations and the why and really
understand deeper what's going on.
With your customer.
So customer interviews I always say is non-negotiable.
Whether you choose to do it as a group with a focus group or
individual one-on-one, you have to be speaking to your customers
and really getting to know them.
Yes, absolutely.
That's really intriguing.
So let's say, um, Because I, Monica, I know a thousand businesses that have
never interviewed their customers, right?
Yes.
Uh, and most people I know many more.
Yeah.
How do you, how do you get started with that?
Is that just a case of, I'm just gonna go down my customer, I'm gonna
pick this, this customers bought three times, so I'm gonna call up.
Go.
Hello, Susan.
Uh, it's Matt here from, uh, you know, Acme.
Cool.
Um, I see you've purchased from us three times.
Can I ask you some questions about it?
Is that, is it as simple as that or is there a bit more to it?
Well, it could be as simple as that, but I always say to first reach out to
your customers, you know, email them.
Um, you and I always say it's really great.
You start with those customers who are the most loyal.
Cause those are the easiest.
Obviously you'll have the customers who purchased from you really often.
They're uh, the ones who maybe only purchased once and stopped.
And then there are people who you've seen have been following you, opening
your emails, but just not buying.
Mm-hmm.
And it's really nice to be able to, you know, speak to different
people from those groups, but start with the most loyal ones.
Cause those are the easiest.
Email them, reach out to them and just say, you know, um, I'm
looking to, you know, serve you better and improve my business.
Um, Would you have some time to speak to me?
It's a, and and then you'll see that quite a few people do respond and that
makes it so much easier to get on a call, because then it's not like a cold call
where, you know, people are gonna think, are you trying to pitch me something?
Mm-hmm.
Uh, no.
So just email them, reach out to them first, and people will tend to respond
and then get onto a, uh, call with them.
Yes.
Fantastic.
And would you, would you incentivize the customer to do that or is
it just you don't need to, you don't, your, your experiences
you don't need.
My experience is that you don't need to, but I always do say, I love
just giving somebody as a thank you.
It's like a little gift for your time.
Thank you for your time.
Here's a voucher, or here's something from my store.
Um, it it, it's just a nice gesture, right?
Yeah.
To give something back for somebody's time.
You don't have to, but it just adds that one level of
appreciation for somebody's time.
So let's role play a little bit, Monica.
And now, um, so, uh, I'm, I've emailed you, Monica, you've purchased
from us three or four times.
We'd love to have a conversation.
Um, Are you up for that?
I guess they have used something, I guess, like zcal or something like that
to schedule a time that works for them.
Right.
And are you, are you, am I, am I doing this call on Zoom?
Uh, whatever works?
Zoom is great because you can record the conversation.
Um, it's nice to have it face-to-face, right?
It, it always makes a difference.
Zoom is great.
Uh, you can record it to listen back to it and always say, and, and if
somebody's really reluctant, you know, then of obviously a phone call.
But, uh, try and do it as much as possible on like a video call where
you can also see the person and record it for yourself just to be
able to take notes later as well.
Yes.
Yeah, that's an important point, I guess, taking the notes later.
As much as you hate listening to your own voice, uh, watching back
the video, I was actually gonna help you make a better call next time.
I would've thought.
Right?
It makes a better call.
It will help you pick out actual little quotes and, you know, snippable words
that you can use, but it's so difficult when you're in a conversation to know
down everything somebody's saying.
Right?
Yeah.
And really pick out everything.
So it's really good to just ha be able to listen back and make sure you haven't
missed any of the important things.
It's a bit like how I do podcast, Monica.
I'm not gonna lie.
I take down very basic notes as we go along and then we have it
transcribed and we can pull out some really good information.
Okay, well, I, this is a beautiful thing.
So, um, we're on a Zoom call then chatting.
What sort of things am I gonna want to ask you?
Like, um, how do I, how do I know what questions to ask?
Because I think that scares people.
That in general, I think conversations like these scare people because
people, I, I, I, I sense a fear.
People have a fear of rejection that people may not wanna speak
to them, they're afraid of any kind of criticism they may hear.
Um, my quick reminder here would be people love helping, especially small
business owners, and people love, again, back to that connection piece
we talked about right in the beginning.
People love connecting.
They wanna be seen, heard, and understood, and they feel.
Every customer I've worked with has come back to me and said, oh
my God, some of those people I interviewed became my loyal customers.
Cause they said, you actually care.
Many businesses don't do this.
So it is scary cuz you haven't done it before.
The more often you do it, the easier it gets.
But just treat, remember that people do love helping people
and they wanna be understood.
So this is a great chance to also differentiate yourself and
show that you care about them.
And then in terms of the questions to ask, I have actually broken it
down into, uh, a framework 4Ds.
So, um, the desires over, yes, desires over demographics, and obviously we
do start a bit with the demographic.
Just get some of the factual information about them.
It just, Creates a good picture and a perspective, and if you do
ever do advertising and targeting, it will give you some great
information to have upfront.
Sure.
So make sure you get those demographics down.
Then for me, one of the most key elements is desires.
Which I called.
So who's this person?
What's going on in their life?
What are their struggles?
What makes them happy?
What can help them get more of those moments?
What do they really want in life?
and what's happening?
So a lot of times people forget this box because they wanna straight
go into their products, but just.
Like I said, people buy because of how your product makes 'em feel.
You're not just selling a product, it's a feeling and experience and it's about how
that product fits into their lifestyle.
So really try to understand that person beyond just the
product that you're selling.
Mm-hmm.
And that's why this box is super important to understand.
And then we go into the third one, which I call do.
This is about behaviors.
How do they behave within their, cate, your category of products?
What are, you know, what are they doing?
Where do they find you or competitors?
How do they get to you?
What's, you know, why are they buying?
What's stopping them from buying the triggers and barriers to buy?
Uh, how does that whole experience of shopping with you make them feel?
Mm-hmm.
And then the final one is delight.
You know, how that entire shop, what really makes them happy?
What would they tell others about you?
What would they tell others about competitors are buying from?
You know, from the whole shopping experience to actually getting
the products at home, what do they really love about it?
What makes them really happy?
And what could you be doing there for doing better?
So it's really about understanding that person, demo demographics and desires, and
then understanding the whole more specific to your product and category and how
they purchase it, what makes them happy.
So those are the four Ds.
Fantastic.
So I've got demographics, desires, do, and delight.
Yes, I got that down right?
Absolutely score me.
Okay.
So, um, so how long do these conversations take?
They do take, I would say budget easily anywhere between 45 minutes to an hour.
Oh, wow.
If you want do them Well, yeah.
If you wanna do them well.
So 45 minutes to an hour.
Ironically, the same length time as my podcast.
I'm just, yes.
Uh, it's, it's almost like it's written in the stars.
Um, so, so I'm doing, I'm, I'm sort of chatting away.
45 Am I letting the client know it's gonna take that long in the original email?
Yes, obviously I, I usually say around 40 minutes to 45 minutes.
And then if it takes another 10, 50 minutes longer, people don't mind.
Um,
yeah, people give you a little bit of grace, don't they?
If you tell it's an hour, they'll freak out.
They may freak out.
So I always say, say around 40 minutes, 45 minutes max.
You know, and then if it goes over, and usually people end up enjoying
the conversation once they're on, so they don't mind and they like
giving so much information away.
Um, so te tends, it tends to go over naturally, so you
don't have to worry so much.
Yeah.
Very good.
And how do you prevent then?
Uh, I kind of know how you're gonna answer this question, Monica.
Uh, but I, I feel like I need to ask it.
How do you prevent this scenario where I just happen to call that
one particular person who is the outlier and they are completely
different to everybody else, right?
Yeah.
Um, and it just is just you, you know, random luck that I've picked this one
person, or maybe these two or three people who are, who are over there,
but 97% of people are over here.
Yeah.
How do I, how do I know that I've done that I guess?
So first of all, you're not just doing one interview, right?
You're gonna be doing multiple.
So you'll start seeing a trend on the ones that are sticking out a little bit.
I mean that's, it's as simple as that.
And I think you need to keep doing these over longer period
of time as well for yourself.
Mm-hmm.
Don't just make this a one time thing and I'm done.
Cuz your business evolves, everything evolves, markets evolve, customers evolve.
So keep doing that.
And another way to do it is also to then use surveys.
You know, say you've done these deep dive interviews mm-hmm.
And you've got a basic understanding of who your customers
are and you've really got.
This gives you the motivations.
It's about quality, really diving deep, but then you can use surveys to test it
out over a large number of people, right?
If this really holds.
So then you can use what you've learned to then set up a survey and send out
to a larger audience or email list, and then see what the consistencies
in the answers that are coming out.
So, uh, the, these are multiple ways of doing it, but first of
all I would say is make sure you're doing multiple interviews.
You're doing 6, 7, 8 of them, you will start seeing that there's one
or two people who are answering completely differently than others.
Yeah.
Um, and that will already give you that feeling.
Okay.
There is, there is some differences, but you'll also start seeing some
of the commonalities coming out.
And I think it's more important to say, okay, what's really
the common thread that's coming across all of these interviews?
Yeah.
And often those will go beyond the demo.
The demographics may be the outliers, but maybe what they really want and
what they're looking for is, is common.
Um, and that's what you wanna really focus on.
Okay, so I guess my, I, how many of these am I doing?
Am I in my head?
I guess there's two ways to do this.
I'm, I'm like, well, I'm just gonna do 20 and see what happens.
Or I can talk to, I mean, you know, in my ecom businesses we have, I
have the privilege of having a team.
I don't know whether the team should do this actually, or the customer service
team or whether I need to do this.
Um, do I say to each one of the customer service team,
you need to do one call a day.
Um, with one customer, and it's just, it is what it is, you know, and we,
and we start to do this and we, we budget time for that, so over, and
we just do it con continually, you know, you get out, I guess we got
three people in customer service.
That's a thousand calls a, a year.
I don't know.
Um, what's the, I guess what's the frequency?
The frequency, I think, I think that's something you can decide.
And, and it also depends on the size of business you are, how much
support you have, you know, whether you're, you know, a sole founder
versus like you, you have a team.
Uh, all of that is going to impact it.
But I would say if you can just even do this on a monthly basis.
So if you've never done this before, I would say try and do eight to 10, find
eight to 10 people that you can speak to so that you can get that base done.
Yeah.
And have that deeper understanding.
And then on a monthly basis, I would say even if you're just doing this on
a monthly basis, that everybody speaks to one to two customers, uh, that
will keep giving you that consistency.
And every time maybe somebody buys you new customers, you say it can
be trigger something in your system and then you can say, Hey, let me
speak to a few of these people.
We have some new buyers in, or there a couple of people who have been coming to.
Back to buy more often, you know, so you can pick and choose.
I would say even just doing it on a monthly basis is, it is really good.
And you'll be ahead of the curve.
Very good.
Now, I, I'm not gonna let you get away with it.
Oh, I'm not gonna, let me get away with it.
But when I said, uh, who should do this?
My team or me?
You said both and I kind of skipped over it.
Uh, so I'm, I know I, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Uh, I, I just want you to know you were heard.
Uh, and so, um, why both?
Well, um, at the end, you're also leading the business, right?
And I think it's everybody.
I would encourage everybody that's involved in the business system,
somebody from the marketing team, not, and the customer service team,
even somebody from the product team.
I would involve everybody if you have a bigger business
where you have different teams.
Hmm.
Involve all the people because all of them need to understand the customer.
To be able to best deliver the work they do and then pull those insights together.
Mm-hmm.
Um, and that makes a difference in everybody's work, I think that you do.
So I wouldn't only leave it to the customer service in
the customer facing teams.
I love that.
I love that the guys in the warehouse need to do the calls
as well, freaks them right out.
That whole concept, talking to people, uh, they, that's why they're in the warehouse.
They're like, I like headphones and not talking to people.
Um, so here's the thing, right.
Uh, and I'm just gonna join two dots together because, you know,
this is how my brain works.
I've, I'm a big proponent, I'm a big fan of podcasting as a marketing strategy.
And here's what I'm thinking when it comes to e-commerce business.
I've seen a lots of strategies when it comes to podcasting, uh, certainly for
e-commerce businesses, and one of the things that I think you need to do on
your podcast is champion your customers.
Right?
So what I'm, what I'm, what I, I'm joining two dots.
I'm going like, I could do this conversation and take part
of, just ask these customers.
You know, a question, say, right?
If you don't mind, we're gonna feature this on the podcast.
So then they get featured on the podcast only for maybe like five or 10 minutes.
Doesn't have to, you know, it's not a whole thing like this.
45 minutes.
Um, And that, that actually works really, really well.
Uh, and you are, you are in effect taking, uh, some research, which is super helpful.
Anyway, uh, you are mixing that with your marketing, which is yes.
Also super helpful, and you're promoting your customer to a
wider audience, which is yep.
I'm, I'm winning on every kind of level here.
Yes.
So, um, I just wanted to join those two dots together.
Thank you.
Absolutely.
Yes.
There's so many ways you can use this, uh, as long as I will emphasize,
get permission from your customers.
Absolutely.
And confidentiality is really important.
Um, because all, obviously also remember that if you do.
Um, say that you're gonna share this somewhere.
They, some people maybe hold back a little more.
So just keep that in mind about what part you wanna share, whatnot, and that you're
very open to your customers about that.
Yeah, no, absolutely.
All top tips.
Okay.
So, um, obviously the, the customer interview is, is a big deal, right?
And I'm, I'm starting to do this.
I'm starting to collect the data.
I'm starting to see some patterns, um, which should hopefully impact
my, my business in some way.
I say hopefully because it's not a given, right?
No, I, the given is, it's not just that you're going to get that informa obs
uh, the observations and the insights from it, but it's about how you're
gonna translate that into your business and consistently, I think what people
forget is that, you know, just doing these interviews is not like the magic
tool right?
It, it's going to give you information that you then need to bring into your
business and consistently implement just like you do everything else into your
messaging, into your content, into the ads you're running, into the products,
you're deciding to maybe launch new products, uh, into your customer service.
So it's about consistently implementing that again into it for
a longer period of time as well.
And it doesn't mean that the whole testing and tweaking that.
You can eliminate that, you still need to do that.
Uh, it's just that you'll be able to do more educated testing.
Mm-hmm.
Um, with the information that you've learned.
So is this then how I got, I mean, coming back to the first mammoth
question that I opened up with, um, is this, is this how we, we build then
that sort of long term loyalty that, to build that sustainable business?
Yes, absolutely.
I think it.
It's all about building customer relationships.
So if you don't know who you're speaking to, how can you build that
relationship for the long term?
So you get to know them, but then make sure that you're consistently translating
that into all the aspects of your business, every touchpoint that your
customer is interacting with you, and for a longer period of time, of course.
And making sure that, and then I would also really challenge is the
part we tend to focus on the most is.
Getting new customers in, but with what you learn, with what you learn,
also look at the post-purchase process because um, I feel like a lot
of people still ignore that a lot.
What happens to a customer once they've bought from you?
How do you interact with them then?
I think that's where you can really use everything you learn to really
build that loyalty for the longer term.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, I couldn't agree more to be honest with you.
Um, uh, so.
So I'm, I'm doing my customer service interviews.
I'm, I'm, I'm getting this wonderful information.
I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm using that data to change my marketing.
I'm using that data to inform my post purchase.
Um, one of the things that I've seen Monica over the years, yeah.
Is the rise of what I'm gonna call customer personas.
Okay.
Yeah.
So I walk into, I remember walking into, into one sales director's office, and
he had like five pictures upon the wall.
You know, that, uh, he didn't know who these people were, but they,
they had names underneath them.
Susan, Simon, and Susan is this, this, this, this, and this, and Simon this, and
this was all data that they'd collated.
Um, from their user.
Some of it was demographics, some of it was their desires.
Some of it was what they do.
Some of it was what delights them, remembering your four Ds, right?
Yeah.
So, um, are you a fan of the customer persona idea or is that, am I in danger of
stereotyping too much and I'm forgetting about the individuality of the person?
I'm, I'm kind of curious as to where you stand on that.
So there are two, a couple of things I wanna say about that.
So customer persona, if it's based on one real customer interviews, right?
Great.
But I see most people building those customer personas maybe
out of just analytical data.
Never have really spoken to anybody or I call that you know, it, it.
I always say real over ideal.
Cause ideal is something from imagination.
People call it that ideal customer persona.
So as long one base off these actual customer conversations and real
understanding, uh, that's important.
And to be honest, I think we go into so much details in some
of those customer personas.
What are people eating, drinking, and what are they reading today?
Yes, that's maybe great to start a conversation, but it's not what's
gonna bring them to your store.
Uh, I think sometimes we go just down to too much detail that's not even needed.
Mm-hmm.
A little too far.
And if you have the time and you wanna do it, great.
But I don't think required.
Right?
It's not required.
I think sticking to those four Ds, really understanding your customer to that level.
What's going on in the life, how your products fit into it, the
trigger barriers, you know, in, in the whole purchase process.
Um, that, that's the most important I've seen.
And we don't need to go down to really that kind of a level.
What is everybody eating, drinking, and watching on Netflix today.
Yeah.
Too much detail.
Yeah.
So alongside too much detail, what are some of the other problems
I need to be aware of or avoid when I'm developing this out?
Well, again, uh, one your own thoughts, assumptions.
A lot of people like building that in, um, understanding that when we are,
uh, looking into customers, we stay.
So you have your customer segment, right?
The.
People with the common traits within that you have that real person
that you're actually speaking to.
And I think a lot of people stop at that level and which what I keep saying
is you wanna get to that core desires.
What is their needs wants and desires that they want.
And it's sometimes it's not, it's not the solution that you're offering yet,
but it's really what they're, what they want out of life and what could that be?
Stopping and making sure that you go down to that kind of a level.
Mm-hmm.
Really the need.
And desires, and that's the biggest element I feel missing
in a lot of customer personas.
They go into more of those behavioral things and you know, like we said, whether
they're eating, drinking or watching today, but they forget what are really
those core desires that they want in life.
And then seeing how to.
You know, add your product into that.
So really making sure it's based on real information, real conversations.
Um, I think really going down to the desires levels, and you don't have to
go into way too much detail and just really making sure that you're not
building in your own assumptions into it.
So, uh, I, I'm sorry, I'm busy making notes here.
No, I, I, I, a lot of it makes a lot of sense to me.
I, I, I'm smiling because, um, I think a lot of people get into e-commerce so they
don't actually have to talk to people.
I know a lot of retailers like, I'm going online cuz I've had enough of people.
Uh, and so they, they just become like a faceless number.
And here we are saying, no, no, no.
You must actually talk to people and base this on real info.
So then marketers come along and say, listen, for those of you who don't
wanna actually talk to people, we can run tests so we'll, we'll split test
is a, is a popular thing, isn't it?
We'll split test this, this, this, and this and we'll pick whichever
is the winning number over here.
And that's basically testing your assumptions on nine times outta 10.
Right?
You're gonna go Exactly.
I have a theory that that ad will outpoll that ad.
Let's put it out, let's test it.
Yep.
Let's see what happens.
Um, but.
That's based on my assumption.
So here we go.
You okay?
You've told me no assumptions.
I've gotta use real data and I've got to find out the desires of
the people that I'm talking to.
Yes.
Love it.
There are a thousand people listening to the podcast now just
breaking out into cold sweats.
They're just kind of going, no, no, no, no.
This is not what I want.
So how do you, but the funny thing is, if anybody's done any kind of course
around growth marketing, growth hacking, one of the first things they say to you
in that is, uh, know, your customer.
Mm-hmm.
But, but still people are using their assumptions to do those tests.
So there is a disconnect happening over there.
Yeah.
Yeah, absolutely.
Absolutely.
But for those that are breaking out into a cold sweat, Monica, are
there any other tools out there that are gonna help me know my customer?
Or is it, I mean, beyond obviously doing the interviews, um, what are the tools
out there that I should think about maybe that I should add to my arsenal?
Or is it just literally not as folks on the interviews first
and then the rest will come?
So absolutely focus on the interviews first, because otherwise, if I
don't say that, I can see everyone trying to grab those other tools.
It's totally what's gonna happen.
It's totally,
and, and avoid this, but other ways to enrich it, um, are basically, I think
a hidden gem are your testimonials.
Especially also negative testimonies of you or your competitors, cuz
then you know what's missing.
Mm-hmm.
Uh, right.
And people look at testimonials only from the product point of view.
What are people saying about my product?
But if you actually read, and it, some people write really pretty,
uh, descriptive testimonials about, I bought this for my grandchild.
It certainly tells you a little more about the person and what
reason they bought something for.
So I would really say, look into your testimonials, any conversations
you've had, email conversations, uh, content, you know, on social media.
Then they are obviously sending out surveys.
There's so many tools you can use for that.
Mm-hmm.
Um, to test it out.
And they are more and more, I don't wanna name the names cause I haven't
tested them out yet, but I found out a few more AI driven tools that scrape
things off the internet for you.
Um, From all the different brands and go through the testimonials of all
other brands that exist in with, within your category, um, that can really
enrich that kind of data as well.
But again, I think this is to enrich it.
They still don't allow you to dive deeper into motivations, which is where actual
conversations are absolutely essential.
Okay, so there's no getting around it is there.
You're gonna have to actually talk to people.
Okay, good.
Uh, let's just do this, deal with that one.
So let's go back then to the desires aspect of it, Monica,
because this really intrigues me.
And this is something that you keep com, uh, keep mentioning.
Yes.
How do you find out the desires?
What sort of questions would you ask?
So let's, I'm just pulling something off the desk in front of me.
Uh, if you're a regular to the show, you will know that I have on
my desk my, uh, Lego Indiana Jones.
There it is.
Big fan of the old Lego Indiana Jones.
Uh, I'm kind of curious, right?
That's the product say that I sell.
Um, How would I, how would I find out the desires of the person buying that product?
What sort of questions would you be asking?
So I think it's more about the technique of the question versus what.
Okay.
So, uh, what we haven't touched on, which is one big thing is, uh, I use a technical
customer story program where you invite your customers to tell you stories.
See what we do as humans.
Again, we rationalize.
Things, right?
Um, I didn't eat those fourth pair of leggings.
I bought them anyway, and I'm explaining it away at home to my husband why I
needed it, cuz, oh, well, you know, I didn't have this color or look at the fit.
Whereas I, I mean honestly I just wanted it, right?
Mm-hmm.
I'm just trying to explain away the choice, and that's what most of us do.
And it's not that we are lying, it's just we don't realize it's all subconscious.
So just like you use stories in your marketing because they're memorable,
they're unique, they evoke emotions.
It's the same way if you ask people for stories, uh, they will
tell you things that you may not otherwise get in normal questions.
Normally we ask people why, why you bought something just like a child have, you
know, if you ever say to a child after they do something they're not supposed
to, and you say, why did you do that?
They're just, they're stumped.
It's the same with us as adults, except that we try to explain things away.
Mm-hmm.
So, but instead, if you ask them, A story versus just why they did something.
They will tell you about something that was unique to them, memorable to them, and
usually has an emotional element to it.
And that's what, and then you also, you are gonna have to dive deeper into,
you know, reading between the lines and picking out, hey, what is it there for?
What is really important to them?
Mm-hmm.
So it's really about more the technique that you use versus the actual questions.
Cause I think people ask, you know, what makes you happy in life?
Well, great, you know, um, You know, I'll, I'll just say what, I don't
know, dancing, for example, but versus saying, you know, um, you know, if
you just think back to the most recent moment that where you felt really
happy, tell me a little story about it.
Mm-hmm.
The answer you'll get will be completely different.
And I can give you a really concrete example.
I, I asked somebody this really recently and it was about the Christmas break.
And we asked this pers, I asked this person how they spent their
Christmas break and she said, well, uh, you know, what did you do?
And she was like, I was out and about running activities with my kids all day.
Um, we had to keep them busy and we were out and about doing activities,
going hiking, going climbing, going for walks, going to the park.
I'm like, okay, great.
Any brand would now build their whole messaging around this, right?
Mm-hmm.
But, What I ask.
Okay.
Tell me a little moment that really stepped by you, what
that you remember the most.
Tell me a little story about it.
And then she started telling me about how she was actually, the moments
when she was snuggling with her child on the sofa, on the couch when they
were taking those moments of pause and she kind of just lit up and she
could see the difference as well.
And while she answered.
And she's like, I was like, so.
Those were actually the moments that were the most important to
her, and what really mattered to her was taking that little time out.
Mm-hmm.
And to pause with her children versus being that busy mom running around
something she felt like she had to do.
Now, if you are a brand, look at the difference in the messaging
you would do and what products you would probably creating by just
having those two different answers.
Yeah, that's very true.
Uh, very, very, I like that because like you say, I guess the
brand two options, haven't you?
These trainers will get you from A to B faster, or these sneakers will get you
from A to B faster and more comfortable.
Um, or this product gives you, uh, a memory making
moment or something like that.
And that's a very different um, They're very good.
Very good.
It's what Netflix did actually when they first started out.
If you cast your, I dunno if you, the early days of Netflix, they had
a picture of a family watching TV on a couch all snuggled together.
I mean, they couldn't have got any closer together.
And you look at the picture and go, There is no way that's comfortable.
They're all gonna get hot, but they all look cozy and, and, and everybody that
had a family was like, that's what I want.
I want these sort of coach cozy times with my young kids and
my wife, and we're just happy.
Uh, and I thought it was very clever.
Um, and tapped into a, a, you know, a success for them,
uh, using just that imagery.
Nike.
Everybody knows that and their whole messaging is around
everyone can be an athlete, right?
Mm-hmm.
Even you can.
So yes, those are the comfortable shoes.
They make you run, you know, the comfortable shoes they make
you run faster, but guess what?
It ev, you know, it makes you healthier if you're exercising.
And guess what?
Everyone can be an athlete, even you.
Hmm.
Uh, I dunno about me, but yeah.
No, fair enough.
Uh, I don't.
Listen.
Uh, Monica, I could, uh, uh, I'm just feel like I'm starting to
scratch the surface and all of this.
I feel like we could, uh, we could talk for hours.
So let me, um, let me ask you this, my, my question that I'm,
I'm starting to ask everybody.
Mm-hmm.
This thinks a really interesting question.
Okay.
So this is more, uh, coming back to you.
So, as you know, the show is sponsored by e-commerce cohort, which helps.
Uh, E-commerce businesses deliver e-commerce Wow.
To their customers through coaching and training, right?
So imagine you have been one of the trainers on cohort, and let's do
this in person rather than online.
You're in a hotel and you've delivered, delivered your keynote.
You know how to do the most amazing, uh, in, uh, conversation with your customers.
I need a better title.
I'm not great with title but you know what I mean?
Um, and the cohorts are all in the room.
They're like, ah, Monica.
Yay.
Go Monica.
Um, And so afterwards, you, you sort of, after delivering your keynote speech, you
have the opportunity to thank those that have had a massive influence on your life.
Um, just say, I'd like to thank dot, dot, dot.
Who would be on your list?
Almost like at the Oscars and, and why?
That's a easy one.
That's my mom.
Always, always, always, always.
My mom.
Uh, first and foremost, um, she, uh, raised us as a single mom.
Uh, here in Holland in a country that wasn't her own that time.
You know, I'm born and raised here.
My sister's born and raised here.
Was the three of us growing up.
Um, she came from a family back where she was not allowed as
a woman to finish her studies.
So she came to, you know, she was in Holland.
She worked as a receptionist for over 40 years.
Got us through private international schooling, uh, moved us outta the
public system to be able to give us a better opportunity and wow.
Used even on that money.
That she earned that limited money, even invested in some real estate
to give a better life, and we were maybe not doing big holidays every
year, but she showed us what is.
It's, you know, it's not always about what you earn, it's about
what's possible and what, and the opportunities you create for yourself.
And I am where I am today, I think what owe it to my mom and
I may choose a complete different path being in my own business.
Mm-hmm.
But it's just knowing the possibilities you can create for yourself.
Um, it, it's played the biggest role for me in my life.
And she's a three times cancer survivor as well, so Holy cow.
Um, yeah, so she's been through a lot and just showed me what you can do.
How positivity and how you can just, yeah.
Be just achieve whatever you want with whatever you have actually.
Um, that's amazing.
So yes, it is.
I may be cliche answer for many people, but it's true.
It's, uh, my inspiration.
You'd be surprised actually, I think out of all the people that I've asked,
you're the first person to mention mum.
Oh, it's seriously.
Yeah.
A lot of, um, a lot of guys mention their dads.
Um, especially if their dads have passed away.
That seems to be a common answer to this tough question.
Yeah.
But, um, yeah, I'm always surprised how many people don't mention their mums.
Uh, I think maybe we'll just take her mums for granted, which probably,
probably, uh, but which we shouldn't do.
So what's your mum's name?
Usha.
Usha sounds like an absolute legend.
Uh, so, uh, wow, that's quite an impressive, uh, quite an impressive
resume your mum has, that's for sure.
So, um, yeah.
Well, don't, Usha.
Awesome now.
Miss Monica, how do people reach you?
How do they, uh, connect with you if they want to do that?
Um, you can follow me on Instagram business with Monica,
uh, business with Monica.
I'm on LinkedIn under my full name.
Uh, obviously you can check on my website businesswithmonica.com.
And we've provided the link, by the way, for the desires over demographics
framework, the four Ds with a little checklist under each D so you can
download it if you have missed it.
So you also know what kind of questions to ask.
And you can come on my, you'll be on my email list.
So keep in touch that way.
Uh, and obviously feel free to reach out if you wanna see
how I can help work with you.
I work with people one-on-one through my brand growth mentorship.
Fantastic businesswithmonica.com.
Instagram business with Monica.
LinkedIn.
We'll put the link in the show notes.
We'll put the link in the show notes actually as well to your
Instagram and to your website.
You can get the show notes, uh, of course from the website.
You can get the show notes from whatever podcast app you
are listening to this show on.
And if you're watching on YouTube, it'll be in the description.
Basically, wherever.
Wherever's Easy's for you, go grab the, the links.
Monica, listen, I, I, I honestly really enjoyed the conversation.
You've been an absolute legend.
Uh, and um, thank you for coming on.
Thank you for having me on.
I really enjoyed it as well.
It's been great.
Honestly, I've got pages of notes.
Uh, so we're, we're all good.
We're all good.
The team hate it cuz they're gonna go.
Matt, what are we, I've got lots of good ideas from Monica guys.
Guess what we're gonna do?
Okay.
So we will of course link to Monica's info, like I said in the show notes,
which you can get for free along with the transcript at ecommercepodcast.net.
Or if you sign up to the newsletter, that will be winging
its way direct to your inbox.
Again, huge thanks to Monica for joining for me.
Uh, joining me today, uh, great conversation and also a
big shout out to today's show sponsor the e-commerce cohort.
Uh, they do have some free training, which you can check out
online at ecommercecycles.com.
So do have a look at that.
And also be sure to follow the e-commerce podcast wherever
you get your podcast from.
Because I have got some more great conversations, uh, lined up, and I
don't want you to miss any of them.
Now, before we wrap up today's episode, let me take a quick moment
to invite you, dear listener, to become a part of the show.
If you are an e-commerce entrepreneur, uh, or an expert in e-commerce in
a field somewhere and would like to share your insights and uh, experiences
like Monica has done today, well, we would love to hear from you.
Or if you know someone who would make a great guest, then
do please send them our way.
Just head over to our website, ecommercepodcast.net and get in touch.
That would be awesome.
Genuinely awesome.
I'll tell you what else is awesome.
Uh, let me put this on.
There you go.
You are awesome.
Uh, just in case no one's told you today, you are created awesome.
It's just a burden you have to bear.
Monica has to bear it.
I have to bear it.
You've gotta bear it too.
Now, the E-Commerce podcast is produced by Aurion Media.
You can find our entire archive of episodes on your favorite podcast app.
The team that makes this show possible is Sadaf Beynon, Estella
Robin and Tanya Hutsuliak.
Our theme song was written by Josh Edmundson, and as I mentioned, if you
would like to read the transcript or show notes, you can find it all on
our website, uh, ecommercepodcast.net.
Now that's it from me.
That's it from Monica.
Thank you so much for joining us.
Have a fantastic week.
I'll see you next time.
Bye for now.