Thing that I felt like I was doing that was super unique was this management piece because I was going to, you know, people in the space.

And I don't want to call any names, because I think that if you work in our industry, you know who they are.

But I was going to them and being like, yo, can you.

Can you teach me?

And they'd be like, you know, there's nothing in Canada.

Right?

You know, you don't need to learn anything here.

There's nothing.

It's just hay.

Is this blowing around.

Just go somewhere, like, you know, and they were so discouraging.

And it's.

What is really sometimes even discouraging now.

Now is seeing the same people in the same roles that they've been in for 20 years.

Right, right.

At labels, you know what I mean?

At publishers who are a part of the urban music space.

I don't even know if we're allowed to call it that anymore.

But I was gonna ask.

I'm like, people are always like, what do you.

You know, are part of this space with, you know, r B, rap, neo, soul, like that.

That kind of music, black music, and would tell me not to invest in knowing more here.

And then it's like, okay, well, even if it's Baron, teach me anyways.

Oh, well, you're not in school, Only public.

We're a publicly traded company.

You can only get an internship here if you're in school for music business at one of these five institutions.

And then it's like, well, why would I go to school there?

They don't got no teachers that teach about the genre I'm working in.

Exactly.

So it was kind of just like, so, you know, it was just so redundant, the.

The amount of rejection I was getting that when I realized I was creating something significant, you know, the artist I managed.

We sold out tickets to her debut concert at Revival.

300 tickets.

Like, you know, this is a seated event.

We had to, like, open up standing room within, like, 72 hours.

And we never released original music.

Right.

You know what I mean?

So when you can do that, when you can build a brand like that, there was a lineup around the building.

You know what I mean?

Like, Drake showed up to her album release party.

We were.

We were killing it.

Like, Raekwon had brought us.

I realized that, okay, there's artists are cool, but there's, like, this really significant piece of business and decorum that you have to have that helps you navigate through this space for sure.

And so when I got rejected and she fired me, you know, my Mom's not a Jay Z fan or anything, but I remember her sitting me down and said, you know, if you built this, you can build another one.

And I just thought, like, made hove says, okay, make another hove.

And I was like, the, the saddest part for me was like, people on the outside thought she was hov, you know, Right, I was hov, you know, and like, I realized, like, yo, I know what I did, I know what I created, I know what I contributed.

And so there was this period of like, is this for me?

Yeah.

But everything kept bringing me back here because I feel like.

And this is like the best advice I can give to anybody.

You are defined by your knowledge center.

What you know about dictates the way you move through the world because it dictates what you're attracted to.

It dictates what, what people are attracted to about you.

And so, because I had so much real, tangible knowledge in this space, it didn't matter what else I wanted to work on.

People always wanted to talk to me about the music business, right?

And so I was like, you know what?

After like a year and a half, like I had opened Sandbox, it was dreadful because I wasn't a recording engineer.

I didn't know anything about anything.

Like, even I'm looking around this dope studio and I'm like, oh, what are those triangles in the corner?

Oh, those are bass traps.

Because, you know, an engineer just told me, like, you guys should probably get some bass traps.

They're just pretty, you know, they're from ikea, you know.

But yeah, like, I really realized that, like, damn, rooks.

You know a lot about this.

And I think that I really want to encourage people to do deep dive learning because you become passionate about what you understand for sure, you know, and so it became a real passion point for me to share music business knowledge.

And it wasn't about royalties, it wasn't about how to start a vp, like a joint venture, or like, how it wasn't about starting a label.

It was, these are basic business transferable administrative skills that you need to understand to run any successful company operation.

Just operational business management.

This is strategy.

This is, you know, your mission statement.

This is your business plan.

This is your business canvas model.

This is like real business development.

And I realized from being in that space that I was relating it to music, but I realized a lot of people didn't know anything about business at all.

And I was listening to a conversation you were having with someone before and you had mentioned the idea of artists actually developing Business plans for themselves, which I thought was an incredible idea.

Can you just speak as to why?

Because I know you kind of touched on it now, but can you just let our listeners know why you think it's so important for artists to create a business plan?

You know, Business plans.

I have a day plan.

You know, I like today, I'm running around like crazy today because I didn't make a day plan.

Right.

I have something, a word that I have actually trademarked.

It's called discipline.

Okay.

I own it.

It's.

It's the idea that you can only be disciplined through planning.

Right.

What are you.

What are you comparing your success against if you don't have a plan?

Right?

Right.

So if you can't wake up in the morning and go, you know, by 9:00, I said I was gonna have some Cream of Wheat, then big up everybody who eats Cream of Wheat.

All the Jamaicans know, okay?

If you didn't say that you were gonna have some porridge in the morning at 9, then when you have porridge at 905, you don't know you already failed.

Right.

You know what I mean?

And so I think it's so important for people to create business plans because it becomes your bible.

It becomes the thing that you are able to say, I am achieving or I am underachieving.

Right.

Because anybody doing anything, you know, if you didn't have food yesterday and you have french fries today, you feel like you won.

Right?

Right.

But if your goal was to have a balanced meal, then French fries don't cut it.

And you wouldn't even have accepted the French fries.

You would have continued to look for what you actually said you wanted.

Right.

And so I think that it's incredibly important for you to decide what you want, because a big part of success as well.

Like, people always think about business plans in terms of, like, deterring you from failure.

Success can lead you off your path.

Right.

I just brought Obama here in January.

Now everybody's asking me different questions about, like, you know, this, that, thank you for that.

But that's not my plan.

You know what I mean?

You have to know your plan so well that you know how to say no to.

To.

To good things.

Right?

Right.

And so, you know, when I was building Sandbox and like, you know, even sitting in the studio, like, I'm.

Be honest, like, shout out MPL Studio.

It looks so dope in here.

I really love it.

Thank you.

Like, when I was building Sandbox, I didn't know anything about why anybody would need to use A studio.

But Sandbox has existed and is one of the top ranked studios in Toronto.

Because I know my business plan inside out, right.

I know how we supposed to grow, how we're supposed to pivot.

I know when some one engineer leaves, what kind of engineer to put in there, how, how to replace things.

What, like, if I only have a $5,000 budget for upgrades, what are the right upgrades?

Because of the audience that I'm.

So I own my audience.

That's why we're always able to sustain and grow.

Because unless you own your audience and your audience are your clients, they're your consumers, they're your buyers, they're the people who are your circle of influence in terms of how you should be growing.

But they're also the influencers that go out and propagate, you know, whatever it is that you want the world to believe.

Yeah, true.

You can't do that if you don't have a business plan.

Right.

So, you know, I really feel like it's so important for artists, creatives, anybody to, you know, when I opened Sandbox, I was like, yo, I'm going to be the only recording studio in Canada that also has a cyclorama.

I'm sitting inside of another studio in Canada, right?

Like, if you don't know your business, then you don't know even like, okay, like I walk in here, I'm seeing stuff, I'm like, but I could have done the market research on that before I'd open Sandbox.

And I think that that's a big part of the reason why I push business plans so is because I learned so much through trial and error.

And then I wrote a business plan like six years in, and I was like, got it.

Ugh.

Yeah.

Had I just done this six years ago?

Yeah.

Like, you know, and then from there, like, I just have business plan thinking.

You know, some people call it design thinking, model thinking.

I just have business plan thinking.

Whether it's about the kind of breakfast I'm going to have, the kind of car I'm going to drive, what outfit I'm wearing.

It's always like based on like 7 of 7 of the main things.

You know what I mean?

That's incredible.

And I think more people should actually take that into consideration, especially young artists.

They just want to get out there, get popping, get their pictures on magazines.

But if they sit down and kind of plan out where they want to go and measurable stats on how to get there, I think that would help a ton of.

Ton of artists.

Yeah.

And you have to build a financial plan.

Right, Right.

So you can get popping and be poor.

There are a lot of popping poor people.

Right.

And I think that that's like the biggest thing.

Like, how many people do you know that are popping?

And we see it especially in the Canadian music market, where I will go to Young and Dundas and I'll see somebody above H and M.

Yeah.

You know, and I'm like, this person ain't got a penny to that.

They use the WI fi to make calls at my studio.

Right.

I want to ask a question about that because before we.

Before we started this conversation, before we hit record, we were talking about COVID and how a lot of artists are losing their main source of income because they can't tour anymore.

I'm really curious as an artist myself, this transition happened in the last couple of decades, where the music, essentially the music itself is not a product that you make a lot of profit off of and you rely on touring, which some would argue is not the artist's main job.

Their main job is to make the music.

Yeah.

How do you feel about that and about in terms of maybe having a business plan on actually making a living from the music itself, as opposed to the merch and the touring and any other peripheral sources of income that artists.

Have had before COVID Well, it goes back to audience.

Right.

And I think that one of the things that we've been able to do in all businesses is passively engage our audience.

Right.

It's like there are billions of people online.

I throw out a song if it sticks to even 0.0.01%.

That's a lot of people.

Right.

And so we're seeing that the entire business model of entrepreneurs, of creatives, it's based on stickiness.

It's not based on intentionality.

Right.

And so when you intentionally engage your audience and you connect with them in that way, they will buy your music.

That's why Taylor Swift has done so well.

Because people will buy Taylor Swift's album when they have Apple music, where you can listen to her album for free.

Cause it's not about paying for the music.

It's about the commitment to Taylor Swift.

So you think the idea of just sort of those quiet musicians that would just release albums and not really interact with the public and just be sort of mysterious, you think those days are kind of over?

I think that those days are over for the people who.

People know, like, it's no longer a time where, you know, the democratization of music started with Napster.

It started with Limewires it started in this place of where I could just download my favorite song for free.

Yeah.

And what that actually has done is made a lot of us more things work in streams, right?

This stream goes into this stream, into this river, into this sea.

But you have to know the difference between your rivers and your seas, Right.

And so.