Hello.
2
00:00:05,059 --> 00:00:06,950
Hi, I'm doing well, Deb.
3
00:00:06,950 --> 00:00:07,881
How are you?
4
00:00:08,064 --> 00:00:09,295
I'm good.
5
00:00:09,554 --> 00:00:16,415
I always get have to get used to Riverside because it does the lag thing but it's
recording and I...
6
00:00:16,415 --> 00:00:17,253
That's right.
7
00:00:17,253 --> 00:00:18,388
So you've been here before.
8
00:00:18,388 --> 00:00:21,464
been here before, Just gonna make you bigger here.
9
00:00:22,146 --> 00:00:23,780
So I can move you over.
10
00:00:23,780 --> 00:00:26,574
Okay.
11
00:00:27,117 --> 00:00:27,915
How are you?
12
00:00:27,915 --> 00:00:30,486
So you know, I'm excited.
13
00:00:30,486 --> 00:00:33,577
I'm working with my nervous system.
14
00:00:36,938 --> 00:00:40,057
You know, yeah, yeah, you know, I care.
15
00:00:40,057 --> 00:00:40,689
I care.
16
00:00:40,689 --> 00:00:42,700
So this matters to me.
17
00:00:42,700 --> 00:00:43,760
It's a passion project.
18
00:00:43,760 --> 00:00:47,601
So thank you, first of all, for being here because you don't have to do this.
19
00:00:47,601 --> 00:00:49,392
There's no, you you're not getting anything.
20
00:00:49,392 --> 00:00:52,733
But I also, I'm not getting anything else besides just sharing.
21
00:00:52,898 --> 00:00:54,518
so I do get something.
22
00:00:54,518 --> 00:00:56,501
I love these, yes.
23
00:00:56,501 --> 00:00:57,504
Yeah.
24
00:00:57,504 --> 00:00:58,243
Yeah.
25
00:00:58,243 --> 00:00:58,754
Well, good.
26
00:00:58,754 --> 00:01:00,635
I'm really excited to talk with you today.
27
00:01:00,635 --> 00:01:02,116
I want to just get with a few details.
28
00:01:02,116 --> 00:01:05,391
First, I hear a background hum.
29
00:01:05,391 --> 00:01:07,153
my, I only turned that off.
30
00:01:07,174 --> 00:01:08,205
Is that better?
31
00:01:08,706 --> 00:01:09,897
it's my heater.
32
00:01:10,439 --> 00:01:11,911
It's starting to get cold here.
33
00:01:11,911 --> 00:01:13,562
I got my heater going.
34
00:01:14,445 --> 00:01:15,246
Yeah.
35
00:01:15,246 --> 00:01:16,427
Where are you?
36
00:01:16,969 --> 00:01:18,390
I'm in Northbrook.
37
00:01:19,283 --> 00:01:20,536
Okay, I've been to Oak Park.
38
00:01:20,536 --> 00:01:22,128
have a friend out there.
39
00:01:22,531 --> 00:01:23,333
Okay, yeah.
40
00:01:23,333 --> 00:01:23,954
Good, good.
41
00:01:23,954 --> 00:01:25,037
I'm in San Rafael.
42
00:01:25,037 --> 00:01:26,520
San Salmo, San Rafael.
43
00:01:26,520 --> 00:01:27,523
You know the neighborhood?
44
00:01:27,523 --> 00:01:27,877
Yeah.
45
00:01:27,877 --> 00:01:32,909
in San Rafael visiting a a couple months ago.
46
00:01:32,909 --> 00:01:34,867
Yeah, it's lovely.
47
00:01:34,867 --> 00:01:36,601
It's a lovely part of the world.
48
00:01:37,241 --> 00:01:38,072
Linda Graham.
49
00:01:38,072 --> 00:01:39,232
Do know Linda?
50
00:01:39,593 --> 00:01:40,666
I know that name.
51
00:01:40,666 --> 00:01:41,510
Is she a therapist?
52
00:01:41,510 --> 00:01:46,173
she wrote Bouncing Back and Resilient.
53
00:01:46,213 --> 00:01:47,424
And she lives in San Rafael.
54
00:01:47,424 --> 00:01:50,046
She's retired now, but she lives right in San Rafael.
55
00:01:50,046 --> 00:01:50,756
It was lovely.
56
00:01:50,756 --> 00:01:52,037
It was a lovely place.
57
00:01:52,037 --> 00:01:53,868
live in a beautiful part of the world.
58
00:01:54,323 --> 00:01:55,504
That is true.
59
00:01:55,504 --> 00:01:56,704
That's true.
60
00:01:57,485 --> 00:02:01,289
Do you have any needs or questions at this point?
61
00:02:01,289 --> 00:02:03,526
We're just gonna talk nervous system,
62
00:02:04,051 --> 00:02:05,651
Yeah, exactly.
63
00:02:05,651 --> 00:02:12,211
I believe, and I already feel it from you, but being with what we're interested in, I know
you talk about this a lot.
64
00:02:12,211 --> 00:02:18,060
So if I'm ever like off point or the energy is not interesting to you, redirect to where
the energy is.
65
00:02:18,060 --> 00:02:19,332
Okay.
66
00:02:19,332 --> 00:02:20,113
listeners though?
67
00:02:20,113 --> 00:02:21,305
Who are they?
68
00:02:21,305 --> 00:02:25,010
I read a bit about your podcast, but I wondered who are they?
69
00:02:25,833 --> 00:02:26,811
Yeah, okay.
70
00:02:26,811 --> 00:02:34,051
knew because I just put it out and it's a lot of friends, of course, but it's obviously
people who are interested in human nature.
71
00:02:34,271 --> 00:02:36,571
But it goes all over the world.
72
00:02:36,571 --> 00:02:41,991
mean, China, Australia, Spain, Finland, mostly America, mostly California.
73
00:02:41,991 --> 00:02:43,651
But yeah.
74
00:02:43,851 --> 00:02:50,083
And then I have been studying evolution for a while.
75
00:02:50,859 --> 00:02:55,589
Chinese medicine, which is so interesting in relationship to this nervous system stuff.
76
00:02:55,589 --> 00:02:58,469
And then IFS, practice working with IFS.
77
00:02:58,469 --> 00:03:01,119
So I will pepper those things in along the way.
78
00:03:01,339 --> 00:03:06,319
And then I think Ellen, was that right, Ellen, said you have an hour.
79
00:03:06,899 --> 00:03:10,707
Okay, so I'm planning for a tight hour, but if...
80
00:03:10,707 --> 00:03:11,617
a little over, that's fine.
81
00:03:11,617 --> 00:03:18,451
I just have to be somewhere at two, and it's noon here, so yeah.
82
00:03:19,592 --> 00:03:21,514
Sure, no worries.
83
00:03:21,514 --> 00:03:22,474
Yeah, yeah.
84
00:03:22,540 --> 00:03:25,051
and then bring in practices.
85
00:03:25,051 --> 00:03:28,893
know, if you have practices you want to drop and download, that would be great.
86
00:03:29,654 --> 00:03:31,795
Okay, let's do this.
87
00:03:31,795 --> 00:03:33,195
Let's do this.
88
00:03:34,796 --> 00:03:37,038
Deb Dana, welcome to the How Humans Work podcast.
89
00:03:37,038 --> 00:03:38,828
I'm really excited to have you on the show today.
90
00:03:38,828 --> 00:03:39,996
Thank you for being here.
91
00:03:39,996 --> 00:03:40,935
nice to be here with you.
92
00:03:40,935 --> 00:03:42,121
Nice to meet you.
93
00:03:42,461 --> 00:03:43,662
It is nice to meet you.
94
00:03:43,662 --> 00:03:51,496
And I found your work and I found your Polyvagal Theory in Therapy book, which I really,
really, really like.
95
00:03:51,496 --> 00:04:03,042
And then I downgraded the level of comprehension and really explored your book Anchored,
which is a little bit more user friendly for lay people or people who aren't in clinical
96
00:04:03,042 --> 00:04:06,153
or professional practices working with the nervous system.
97
00:04:06,816 --> 00:04:10,983
And so Tell me how you found yourself steeped in Polyvagal Theory.
98
00:04:10,983 --> 00:04:14,258
Like how did you find your way to this in it?
99
00:04:14,258 --> 00:04:17,359
Yeah, yeah, don't you love origin stories?
100
00:04:17,359 --> 00:04:20,000
Don't you love to hear how people got where they are?
101
00:04:20,000 --> 00:04:23,841
Because usually we have no idea we're gonna end up here, right?
102
00:04:24,121 --> 00:04:30,773
I was always a neuroscience nerd when I was, I'm a clinical social worker and working with
clients.
103
00:04:30,773 --> 00:04:35,704
I always thought it was important for me to understand and them to understand their
brains.
104
00:04:36,144 --> 00:04:42,808
And then I read Steve Porges's first book and it was like, my gosh, I have this whole
105
00:04:42,808 --> 00:04:48,840
piece of the human being that I have neglected, the nervous system.
106
00:04:48,941 --> 00:05:02,977
And from then on, I was sold with Steve's work and reached out to him and asked him if he
would come to Maine where I live part of the time and do a training for my colleagues
107
00:05:02,977 --> 00:05:11,340
because I just thought it was such an important part of understanding how we are human
because the nervous system really is what
108
00:05:11,340 --> 00:05:15,383
begins that whole process of how we are human.
109
00:05:15,383 --> 00:05:17,546
So that's kind of where it started.
110
00:05:17,546 --> 00:05:28,123
And Steve and I laugh now because that was, 2000, jeesh, I don't know, 11, 12, somewhere
around there.
111
00:05:29,086 --> 00:05:33,099
And who knew that we would end up where we are now?
112
00:05:33,099 --> 00:05:38,714
So it's one of those reminders that if you are interested in something,
113
00:05:38,824 --> 00:05:41,905
and you reach out, you never know what's gonna happen, right?
114
00:05:41,905 --> 00:05:42,795
Yeah.
115
00:05:43,271 --> 00:05:44,513
Yeah, so what's evolved?
116
00:05:44,513 --> 00:05:48,398
What's been born out of that initial meeting and for you?
117
00:05:48,620 --> 00:05:55,124
Well, I read his book and loved his theory and immediately thought, how do I bring this to
my clients?
118
00:05:55,124 --> 00:05:57,395
Because that's where I always go with things.
119
00:05:57,395 --> 00:05:59,806
How do I make this user friendly for my clients?
120
00:05:59,806 --> 00:06:10,942
And so I worked with a group of clinicians and I think I drove them crazy for the first,
you know, six, eight months because I would come in and say, try this, try this, try this.
121
00:06:10,942 --> 00:06:18,690
And then I started doing workshops to play around with concepts and ideas and how might we
bring, you know, those
122
00:06:18,690 --> 00:06:28,254
what I consider the three organizing principles of co-regulation, neuroception, hierarchy
into application in a way that's understandable.
123
00:06:29,094 --> 00:06:34,016
by the time I reached out to Steve and by the time he came to Maine, I was already
developing this stuff.
124
00:06:34,016 --> 00:06:38,778
And then it was like, my gosh, do I dare show it to the person?
125
00:06:38,938 --> 00:06:48,142
And the person, if you've never met him or listened to him, is a brilliant scientist,
truly brilliant scientist.
126
00:06:48,640 --> 00:06:50,701
the most kind human, right?
127
00:06:50,701 --> 00:06:56,132
So it's this lovely combination of qualities in a human being.
128
00:06:56,132 --> 00:07:06,115
And so he, of course, was delighted that I was taking his work and making ladders and
scales and continuums and all this stuff.
129
00:07:06,235 --> 00:07:10,666
And really, in that moment, I think, changed my life forever.
130
00:07:10,666 --> 00:07:11,446
I tell him that.
131
00:07:11,446 --> 00:07:17,518
say, this was a before and after moment because you said, I really like what you're doing.
132
00:07:17,658 --> 00:07:18,578
And he
133
00:07:18,578 --> 00:07:24,316
lent his name, his credibility, his heart to my work.
134
00:07:24,316 --> 00:07:28,171
And that was that defining moment, right?
135
00:07:29,093 --> 00:07:30,074
Yeah.
136
00:07:31,116 --> 00:07:32,116
Yeah.
137
00:07:32,137 --> 00:07:33,068
Yeah.
138
00:07:33,281 --> 00:07:36,822
I am curious about who you were before and appreciate that.
139
00:07:36,822 --> 00:07:44,956
But what would you say was the, what was the passage that opened up for you by getting his
blessing and kind of going with this?
140
00:07:44,956 --> 00:07:46,366
Like, hey, I can teach this.
141
00:07:46,366 --> 00:07:47,687
I can bring this to the world.
142
00:07:47,687 --> 00:07:48,283
Yeah.
143
00:07:48,283 --> 00:07:55,607
I mean, it's that sense of credibility, I think, that, you I was a trauma specialist.
144
00:07:55,648 --> 00:07:59,840
had lots of training and, you know, I was IFS trained.
145
00:07:59,840 --> 00:08:01,221
I was sensory motor trained.
146
00:08:01,221 --> 00:08:05,034
did, you know, Bessel's Traumatic Stress Certificate.
147
00:08:05,034 --> 00:08:06,575
I'd done all the things.
148
00:08:06,575 --> 00:08:11,418
And yet, like many people, I had this sense of who am I, right?
149
00:08:11,418 --> 00:08:15,511
Who am I to think that I have something to offer to the world?
150
00:08:15,511 --> 00:08:16,942
And I actually...
151
00:08:17,464 --> 00:08:26,176
created, I wrote the first book, I created all this stuff in the finished room over my
garage in Maine.
152
00:08:26,176 --> 00:08:26,557
Right?
153
00:08:26,557 --> 00:08:37,110
And so somehow you do this and you think, it's working with my clients, but it's like,
what if I put it out in the world and people, lots of people see it, then what?
154
00:08:37,110 --> 00:08:45,662
So it's that amazing experience I think most of us still have of, I guess we call it
imposter syndrome, but it felt very...
155
00:08:45,662 --> 00:08:45,986
yeah.
156
00:08:45,986 --> 00:08:57,202
very wired into my biology, this sort of, this sort of, don't, don't get big, which I
think on a nervous system level, what, you know, that's, that's sort of a, an autonomic
157
00:08:57,202 --> 00:09:00,504
response pattern or survival pattern that was wired into my system.
158
00:09:00,504 --> 00:09:05,427
And so, you know, it was like, Ooh, I'm, really bumping up against all sorts of stuff
here.
159
00:09:05,427 --> 00:09:15,586
So, you know, when Steve said, this is great, it was like, Ooh, maybe, you know, and he,
he had asked me if, I would co-edit a book with him and.
160
00:09:15,586 --> 00:09:21,170
That's the blue book, the clinical applications book that we did together.
161
00:09:21,191 --> 00:09:32,460
that was lovely because I got to talk to people and they, you know, I sort of had this
inferred credibility because I was working with Steve and things began to shift.
162
00:09:32,460 --> 00:09:41,508
And from that, I reached out to our publisher at Norton and I said, do you think there's
any room for my, you know, my clinical application work?
163
00:09:41,508 --> 00:09:43,980
And she said, I don't know, send me some samples.
164
00:09:44,204 --> 00:09:46,485
And you can imagine what that did to my nervous system.
165
00:09:46,485 --> 00:09:51,536
It took me like six weeks to put together something to send to her.
166
00:09:51,536 --> 00:09:54,967
And so was, and then it was, yeah, let's, let's do this.
167
00:09:54,967 --> 00:10:01,209
So, you know, it's interesting though, the nervous system needs repeated experiences of,
something different.
168
00:10:01,209 --> 00:10:03,319
call them disconfirming experiences.
169
00:10:03,319 --> 00:10:08,491
That's Bruce Ecker's language and I love his language, but we need repeated experiences of
that.
170
00:10:08,491 --> 00:10:13,002
And in the therapy world, we think, you know, we offer something, a client.
171
00:10:13,122 --> 00:10:16,543
has something that feels different, does it differently and that's good.
172
00:10:16,543 --> 00:10:17,373
But not true.
173
00:10:17,373 --> 00:10:19,134
We need that repeated over and over.
174
00:10:19,134 --> 00:10:32,238
And my personal journey reminds me of that all the time, that I needed to be shown on a
biological level many, many times, that yes, this was in fact a good path forward and that
175
00:10:32,238 --> 00:10:33,158
I could do this.
176
00:10:33,158 --> 00:10:40,150
So it's a, you I think our personal journeys always remind us of, of, you know, how we're
working with, with clients.
177
00:10:40,150 --> 00:10:41,218
Cause again,
178
00:10:41,218 --> 00:10:46,052
We all have a nervous system and it's wired in the same way and it works the same way.
179
00:10:46,052 --> 00:10:50,476
So why would mine work any different from any of my clients, right?
180
00:10:51,979 --> 00:10:59,143
Well, I love the connection between your own path and actually the teachings of Polyvagal
theory, right?
181
00:10:59,143 --> 00:11:03,916
So you had to walk and live with the risk and getting bigger exactly in your nervous
system.
182
00:11:03,916 --> 00:11:12,951
And I've been interested in the nervous system for a long time because, as I mentioned to
you, really deeply interested in evolution and in Chinese medicine.
183
00:11:13,999 --> 00:11:18,871
the thing that kind of stood out to me beyond all the theory is, okay, this is working
with people's stress response.
184
00:11:18,871 --> 00:11:21,342
This is working with people's stress experience, right?
185
00:11:21,342 --> 00:11:33,107
And so let's get into Polyvagal Theory and what I would call the backbone of our human
experience, our nervous system and how we can begin to understand and as you say, befriend
186
00:11:33,348 --> 00:11:39,400
this deep thing of who we are or that runs us.
187
00:11:39,400 --> 00:11:41,780
Yeah, so teach us about that.
188
00:11:41,780 --> 00:11:50,652
yeah, so, and I'll be curious to hear how you weave in Chinese medicine, because I don't
know a lot about it, every now and then people talk about it, I go, ooh, that's
189
00:11:50,652 --> 00:11:51,322
interesting.
190
00:11:51,322 --> 00:11:54,183
So please, weave that in too.
191
00:11:55,478 --> 00:12:05,282
You know, I think first we think about our dysregulated responses, right, that happen
through what Steve named neuroception.
192
00:12:05,282 --> 00:12:10,234
So neuroception is the way the nervous system takes in information, right?
193
00:12:10,234 --> 00:12:14,886
And we either have a neuroception of safety or some sort of unsafety.
194
00:12:15,126 --> 00:12:20,948
And neuroception uses three pathways to take in that information.
195
00:12:20,948 --> 00:12:25,970
So it uses the what's happening in the body pathway, the inside pathway.
196
00:12:25,970 --> 00:12:30,052
It uses the environmental what's happening in the world around us pathway.
197
00:12:30,052 --> 00:12:32,683
And it uses a between pathway, which is one I love.
198
00:12:32,683 --> 00:12:35,274
It uses the what's happening
199
00:12:35,274 --> 00:12:37,425
nervous system to nervous system, right?
200
00:12:37,425 --> 00:12:42,016
So your nervous system and mine are doing that, that getting to know each other
experience.
201
00:12:42,016 --> 00:12:47,517
Our brains are as well, but our nervous systems are feeling into, does this feel safe or
not?
202
00:12:47,517 --> 00:12:55,540
So when the cues of safety from those three pathways outweigh the cues of danger, then
we're ready to move forward.
203
00:12:55,540 --> 00:13:00,621
We're regulated enough that we can engage and do whatever it is we're wanting to do with
our day.
204
00:13:00,621 --> 00:13:03,830
But when the cues of danger outweigh the cues of safety,
205
00:13:03,830 --> 00:13:06,781
then we move into a survival response, right?
206
00:13:06,781 --> 00:13:08,954
We get dysregulated.
207
00:13:09,355 --> 00:13:16,731
And our survival responses, Steve's work really identified that we have two different
survival responses.
208
00:13:16,731 --> 00:13:21,104
We have a regulated response, and then we have two survival responses.
209
00:13:21,104 --> 00:13:26,449
The first being the sympathetic nervous systems fight and flight that everybody knows,
right?
210
00:13:26,449 --> 00:13:33,070
We go to fight and flight, we go to anger and anxiety, and that's a survival response that
happens
211
00:13:33,070 --> 00:13:35,050
when we feel in danger.
212
00:13:35,070 --> 00:13:47,170
The other survival response if we feel in extreme danger, you know, and in more intense
danger will take us to the dorsal collapse, which is what Steve identified and that's why
213
00:13:47,170 --> 00:13:54,840
he calls it Polyvagal Theory because it's dorsal vagal and the regulated state is ventral
vagal.
214
00:13:54,840 --> 00:13:57,020
So you have two vagal, polyvagal.
215
00:13:57,020 --> 00:13:59,810
So that's why it's named polyvagal.
216
00:13:59,810 --> 00:14:00,738
And this
217
00:14:00,738 --> 00:14:06,899
Dorsal vagal response of no energy, no interest, collapse, disconnect.
218
00:14:07,160 --> 00:14:11,661
If, know, in the evolutionary history is the earliest part of our nervous system, right?
219
00:14:11,661 --> 00:14:16,592
That's where the human nervous system began in our phylogenetic history, right?
220
00:14:16,592 --> 00:14:20,763
We would immobilize to survive, right?
221
00:14:20,763 --> 00:14:25,525
And you still see that in our system today, right?
222
00:14:25,525 --> 00:14:29,966
Because evolution doesn't throw anything out, it builds on top of.
223
00:14:29,966 --> 00:14:30,708
So this
224
00:14:30,708 --> 00:14:42,086
response of collapse, disconnect, dissociate at one end or simply, you know, this going
through the motions but don't really care, don't have the energy.
225
00:14:42,086 --> 00:14:45,908
That's that continuum of collapse, right?
226
00:14:45,909 --> 00:14:59,148
So, you know, we have these three responses and they work in a specific order, which is
the beautiful part about understanding this is that Dorsal is the first.
227
00:14:59,254 --> 00:15:00,675
sympathetic and then ventral.
228
00:15:00,675 --> 00:15:02,256
It's built that way.
229
00:15:02,256 --> 00:15:07,739
And our nervous system truly, I believe, longs to have us in that state of ventral
regulation.
230
00:15:07,739 --> 00:15:13,532
I think that's where it, you know, that's that healthy homeostasis that biologically we're
looking for.
231
00:15:13,532 --> 00:15:18,445
Yes, cognitively we're searching for too, but biologically we're looking for that.
232
00:15:18,445 --> 00:15:20,966
And I think the nervous system knows how to get us there.
233
00:15:20,966 --> 00:15:28,608
I think that's a sustaining belief I hold in my work, that your nervous system knows how
to get there.
234
00:15:28,608 --> 00:15:38,592
It may have lost the way, it may not have traveled there that often because of your trauma
experiences, but I don't have to put something inside you that's not already there, it
235
00:15:38,592 --> 00:15:39,422
lives there.
236
00:15:39,422 --> 00:15:44,404
We just have to uncover it and help you then travel that pathway, right?
237
00:15:44,404 --> 00:15:46,174
And again, you love evolution.
238
00:15:46,174 --> 00:15:49,316
Evolution has built this into our biology.
239
00:15:49,316 --> 00:15:50,886
It's beautiful, isn't it?
240
00:15:51,235 --> 00:15:52,316
Amazing.
241
00:15:52,316 --> 00:15:53,377
Yeah.
242
00:15:53,377 --> 00:16:02,024
Let's break down the idea of the vagus nerve a little bit because most people probably
aren't coming with a sophistication around the nervous system in the body.
243
00:16:02,024 --> 00:16:09,950
So the vagus nerve as I understand it's a tenth cranial nerve and you're saying it has two
aspects a ventral and a dorsal aspect.
244
00:16:09,950 --> 00:16:11,324
Yeah so keep going with that.
245
00:16:11,324 --> 00:16:12,484
Yeah, it's the longest.
246
00:16:12,484 --> 00:16:16,087
We have 12 cranial nerves and the vagus is the longest one in it.
247
00:16:16,087 --> 00:16:18,549
Vagus is wanderer in Latin.
248
00:16:18,549 --> 00:16:20,620
And if you see an image of it, it does it.
249
00:16:20,620 --> 00:16:22,792
It wanders from your brain stem.
250
00:16:22,792 --> 00:16:28,715
It comes around the side of your neck, travels down, and then it wanders throughout your
body.
251
00:16:28,896 --> 00:16:31,858
It hits all sorts of organs.
252
00:16:32,318 --> 00:16:37,880
it's just the image can be lovely to think of as it just has all of these sort of
253
00:16:37,880 --> 00:16:40,130
pieces that come out from it.
254
00:16:40,651 --> 00:16:48,513
Basically, yeah, yeah, yeah, it's lovely.
255
00:16:48,513 --> 00:17:01,146
you know, if we talk about cascading and 80 % of the information then travels from the
body up to the brain along that cascading highway, from the body, from all the organs up
256
00:17:01,146 --> 00:17:02,237
to the brain.
257
00:17:02,237 --> 00:17:04,797
And 20 % is the brain's response back.
258
00:17:04,797 --> 00:17:06,458
Isn't that fascinating?
259
00:17:06,763 --> 00:17:09,018
I was reading that, yeah, that's amazing.
260
00:17:09,018 --> 00:17:12,042
What do you make of that, like when you get those proportions?
261
00:17:12,042 --> 00:17:17,535
for me, it's a reminder that we need to not be so brain centric, right?
262
00:17:17,535 --> 00:17:26,011
Because the brain is getting the information from the body and then the brain's making up
a story to help us use that information in some way.
263
00:17:26,011 --> 00:17:31,254
But we're such a top down, you know, in the clinical world, we've been top down for a long
time.
264
00:17:31,254 --> 00:17:35,916
And I think I don't want to be just bottom up, but I need bottom up to meet top down.
265
00:17:35,916 --> 00:17:38,722
So it's that sort of paradigm shift that
266
00:17:38,722 --> 00:17:47,868
that that 80-20 really reminds me, right, we have so much information that is there for us
if we can connect to it.
267
00:17:48,689 --> 00:18:07,362
So back to Vegas, from the brain stem basically to the diaphragm is the ventral vagal
world and from the diaphragm downward is the dorsal vagal world because in its regulating
268
00:18:07,362 --> 00:18:08,216
role,
269
00:18:08,216 --> 00:18:11,848
the dorsal vagus runs your digestion, that's its job.
270
00:18:12,428 --> 00:18:21,013
It has a survival role of collapse, disconnect, et cetera, but it has an everyday
responsibility to run your digestion.
271
00:18:21,013 --> 00:18:32,280
And if you have moments in your life when you are under stress, when you are suffering,
when you are overwhelmed, you'll notice your digestion is off as well.
272
00:18:32,280 --> 00:18:37,056
That's because the dorsal vagus has now gone into survival rather than.
273
00:18:37,056 --> 00:18:39,569
everyday regulation.
274
00:18:39,569 --> 00:18:48,620
It's a great clue that something's not right in your life when your digestion is off
because that's a nervous system message.
275
00:18:50,091 --> 00:18:51,451
Yeah, beautiful.
276
00:18:51,451 --> 00:18:55,131
So it's a lot about listening to the body and I'm flashing on a number of things.
277
00:18:55,131 --> 00:18:58,651
One, I'll just pepper in a little bit of Chinese medicine.
278
00:18:58,651 --> 00:19:04,931
There's this idea in Chinese medicine about liver qi stagnation, which is the free flow of
emotions.
279
00:19:05,291 --> 00:19:13,751
And the herbal formula for that liver qi stagnation, the classic one is called relax
wanderer, you know, like the vagabond.
280
00:19:13,751 --> 00:19:19,440
And I always describe liver qi stagnation as a fixation on any particular emotion.
281
00:19:19,440 --> 00:19:22,077
Yeah.
282
00:19:22,736 --> 00:19:29,932
And I'll go on a little bit later about the kidney meridian and the connections between
what you're speaking of, but I'll get a little personal here.
283
00:19:29,943 --> 00:19:40,462
I was in my men's group a few weeks back and been going through some things in my
relationship with some family members and my mom in particular who's going through some
284
00:19:40,462 --> 00:19:41,002
health things.
285
00:19:41,002 --> 00:19:46,607
And I was working through some of my stuff and I just opened up and then it's kind of
classic men's.
286
00:19:47,019 --> 00:19:50,461
stuff, probably women's stuff, they're like, come on in, let's hold you, you know.
287
00:19:50,941 --> 00:19:55,444
So I'm like, I don't want to be, I don't want to do that, but I'll do it because I should
try it, you know.
288
00:19:55,444 --> 00:20:01,137
And I had the most interesting experience, which was I couldn't stand, I couldn't hold
myself up anymore.
289
00:20:01,137 --> 00:20:12,054
And it was almost like just the opportunity to let go, you know, it like, I was just like,
it wasn't any conscious decision, it was almost like my dorsal vagal system was like,
290
00:20:12,054 --> 00:20:15,185
okay, buddy, you can, you can collapse right now.
291
00:20:18,307 --> 00:20:19,119
I love that.
292
00:20:19,119 --> 00:20:19,814
Yeah.
293
00:20:19,814 --> 00:20:20,735
be held in that way.
294
00:20:20,735 --> 00:20:28,760
But I also like getting personal and honest because I think that's important for how we
understand our human nature.
295
00:20:28,760 --> 00:20:35,464
But I think it's also a really beautiful example of this embodiment that you talk about.
296
00:20:35,464 --> 00:20:40,277
When we befriend our nervous system, it's not like befriending something foreign to us.
297
00:20:40,277 --> 00:20:40,965
It's
298
00:20:40,965 --> 00:20:42,596
actually the thing in us.
299
00:20:42,596 --> 00:20:54,006
And so let's talk more about this 80 % of the ears, the eyes, the head movement, this way
we actually experience our nervous system, if you would.
300
00:20:54,047 --> 00:20:54,823
Yeah?
301
00:20:54,823 --> 00:21:05,279
the ears, the eyes, the tone of voice, the head movement, that's all part of what Steve
identified as your social engagement system, right?
302
00:21:05,279 --> 00:21:12,723
That's connected to your ventral vagal system and you're sending messages through your
eyes, through tone of voice.
303
00:21:12,723 --> 00:21:14,114
Tone of voice is huge.
304
00:21:14,114 --> 00:21:19,667
Nervous system listens to tone of voice before it listens to actual language, right?
305
00:21:19,667 --> 00:21:21,432
So if your tone of voice
306
00:21:21,432 --> 00:21:25,614
feels safe and welcoming to my nervous system, I'm gonna listen to what you say.
307
00:21:25,614 --> 00:21:31,486
But if it feels like a warning, I'm gonna really struggle to take in what you're saying,
right?
308
00:21:31,486 --> 00:21:32,967
So fascinating.
309
00:21:32,967 --> 00:21:35,207
The head nod, the head turn and tilt.
310
00:21:35,208 --> 00:21:44,651
We don't think about it, but biologically it is wired in to your nervous system to be a
cue of safety, to be a welcome, right?
311
00:21:44,651 --> 00:21:51,486
And so if you are suffering with some sort of a lack of...
312
00:21:52,219 --> 00:21:57,903
ability to move your head, you are sending a cue of danger, whether you mean to or not.
313
00:21:57,903 --> 00:22:07,673
You can be perfectly kind and have eyes that are kind and smile, but if you can't move
your head, that's a cue of danger to another nervous system.
314
00:22:07,673 --> 00:22:09,052
It's fascinating.
315
00:22:10,943 --> 00:22:11,723
That is fascinating.
316
00:22:11,723 --> 00:22:12,994
It reminds me of the patients I've had.
317
00:22:12,994 --> 00:22:16,065
I've seen a lot of connection between neck pain and anxiety.
318
00:22:16,065 --> 00:22:27,029
And when people have limited range of motion, maybe because they've been stressed, or for
other architectural reasons in the skeleton, that they also oftentimes have anxiety that
319
00:22:27,029 --> 00:22:28,039
goes along with it.
320
00:22:28,039 --> 00:22:28,678
yeah.
321
00:22:28,678 --> 00:22:30,681
And so they can't send and they're not.
322
00:22:30,681 --> 00:22:38,999
And so if I can't send cues of safety, your system is going to then not send back to me
cues of safety.
323
00:22:38,999 --> 00:22:41,731
It becomes that circuit, that cycle.
324
00:22:41,731 --> 00:22:53,792
And so if I'm in chronic pain, I can't move my neck and I'm sending that and getting back
a warning that my anxiety goes, it becomes that feedback loop, right?
325
00:22:53,804 --> 00:23:01,219
Yeah, you know, the thing the thing that's interesting is because people ask me all the
time and they say, well, I have limited range of motion in my neck.
326
00:23:01,219 --> 00:23:05,973
said, I said, OK, just tell people, give people the context.
327
00:23:05,973 --> 00:23:08,284
Context is huge for the nervous system.
328
00:23:08,284 --> 00:23:15,269
If I tell you I have a stiff neck today, so I have limited range of motion in your system
is going to notice that.
329
00:23:15,349 --> 00:23:16,470
Then you will notice it.
330
00:23:16,470 --> 00:23:22,072
But your brain is going to have the information to make up the correct story, which is.
331
00:23:22,072 --> 00:23:26,865
Deb's got a stiff neck today rather than she doesn't like me.
332
00:23:26,865 --> 00:23:29,366
She's not safe to be around, right?
333
00:23:29,387 --> 00:23:34,910
So giving context is such an important part of this way of working.
334
00:23:36,363 --> 00:23:37,323
Beautiful.
335
00:23:38,065 --> 00:23:39,215
Yeah, love that.
336
00:23:39,215 --> 00:23:40,386
I mean, I think it's so important.
337
00:23:40,386 --> 00:23:44,991
I kind of have that context because I work with health and I work with the body and I pay
attention to people.
338
00:23:44,991 --> 00:23:52,920
So I don't have those same reactions of that maybe someone who wouldn't understand that be
like, that person's got a stiff neck or their back's hurting.
339
00:23:52,920 --> 00:23:57,041
And like, I'm always have that surveillance system.
340
00:23:57,041 --> 00:24:04,247
And I want to get back to that neuroception idea a little bit, which is the surveillance
system around safety and danger, right?
341
00:24:04,511 --> 00:24:07,117
And most of this is happening below the radar.
342
00:24:07,117 --> 00:24:08,174
I mean, it's subtle.
343
00:24:08,174 --> 00:24:09,284
It's kind of half there.
344
00:24:09,284 --> 00:24:13,097
You're like, that person seems a little tense, but they have a stiff neck maybe.
345
00:24:13,097 --> 00:24:13,397
Right.
346
00:24:13,397 --> 00:24:22,173
But talk more about this below the radar, below the conscious process aspect of safety and
danger that's wired in us.
347
00:24:22,284 --> 00:24:25,774
yeah, it is happening below your thinking brain, right?
348
00:24:25,774 --> 00:24:35,134
We can bring perception to it, which is what we do when we want to work with it, but it
happens all the time just below the level of our awareness, you know?
349
00:24:35,134 --> 00:24:43,894
And I think most people understand neuroception through they might say they had a gut
feeling or they had, you know, some intuition, right?
350
00:24:43,894 --> 00:24:45,454
We give it all sorts of names.
351
00:24:45,454 --> 00:24:48,894
That's your nervous system's neuroception at work, right?
352
00:24:48,894 --> 00:24:51,348
Like you might walk into a room and
353
00:24:51,348 --> 00:24:55,200
and see someone and think, I think I want to get to know that person.
354
00:24:55,200 --> 00:24:58,082
Neuroception has sent you some cues.
355
00:24:58,082 --> 00:25:01,294
Or you might walk into a room and go, not my crowd.
356
00:25:01,294 --> 00:25:05,246
You're getting a different neuroceptive experience, right?
357
00:25:05,246 --> 00:25:10,669
And we can go back afterwards and we can sort of identify what were the cues of safety and
the cues of danger.
358
00:25:10,669 --> 00:25:18,754
But in the moment, your nervous system is taking in a broad, big amount of information and
then pushing you in one direction or another.
359
00:25:18,754 --> 00:25:19,584
Yeah.
360
00:25:19,638 --> 00:25:22,939
And oftentimes it makes no sense, right?
361
00:25:23,079 --> 00:25:30,142
Makes no sense and doesn't have to make sense because again, it is not a thinking
experience.
362
00:25:30,142 --> 00:25:33,164
It's an embodied experience.
363
00:25:33,164 --> 00:25:35,703
Based on our past too, right?
364
00:25:35,703 --> 00:25:39,636
Neuroception takes in information over the course of our lifetime.
365
00:25:39,636 --> 00:25:47,789
And then if a familiar cue comes alive in the present moment, the nervous system doesn't
distinguish past from present.
366
00:25:47,789 --> 00:25:49,666
It simply takes in the cue.
367
00:25:49,666 --> 00:25:51,547
and then I'm off and running, right?
368
00:25:51,547 --> 00:25:57,230
It might be that you have this gorgeous color green in your background.
369
00:25:57,230 --> 00:26:01,872
It might be that that color green is a cue of danger for my nervous system.
370
00:26:02,053 --> 00:26:11,318
And I might not have any idea about that at all, but I might struggle in this interview,
in this conversation that's happening.
371
00:26:11,318 --> 00:26:15,880
And afterwards I might think, that was terrible and I would have no idea.
372
00:26:15,880 --> 00:26:19,372
it was right, neuroception of unsafety because
373
00:26:19,372 --> 00:26:21,924
of an environmental cue, right?
374
00:26:21,924 --> 00:26:30,109
So we have to sort of be curious about what is prompting that experience.
375
00:26:30,109 --> 00:26:31,009
Mm-hmm.
376
00:26:32,210 --> 00:26:32,573
Yeah.
377
00:26:32,573 --> 00:26:33,774
So let's talk about that.
378
00:26:33,774 --> 00:26:43,516
How do we get curious and how do we build a relationship with neuroception when most of
it's happening below the surface and some of the signals may be artifacts from past
379
00:26:43,516 --> 00:26:44,607
experiences?
380
00:26:44,607 --> 00:26:48,099
I mean, and that is the bringing perception to neuroception.
381
00:26:48,099 --> 00:26:49,830
That's a process, right?
382
00:26:49,830 --> 00:26:51,941
So it's like in the moment.
383
00:26:51,941 --> 00:26:59,177
I would work with my clients who would say, I had an extreme response and I tried to
figure it out.
384
00:26:59,177 --> 00:27:04,601
And I would say, when you have that extreme of response, don't try and figure it out in
the moment.
385
00:27:04,601 --> 00:27:07,102
Just do what your nervous system is telling you.
386
00:27:07,163 --> 00:27:11,970
And then let's reflect on it afterwards because in the moment, it's too big.
387
00:27:11,970 --> 00:27:12,140
Right?
388
00:27:12,140 --> 00:27:21,435
You can't, you don't, your prefrontal cortex is not there to help you do all this
reflection and, and, and, you know, be, bring curiosity what happened.
389
00:27:21,435 --> 00:27:22,696
Later we can reflect.
390
00:27:22,696 --> 00:27:27,778
So the first way we work with neuroception is to reflect on a moment.
391
00:27:27,839 --> 00:27:28,139
Right?
392
00:27:28,139 --> 00:27:32,912
So think of a moment where you're curious about, you wonder, was my response needed?
393
00:27:32,912 --> 00:27:33,812
Right?
394
00:27:33,812 --> 00:27:36,844
Was it, was it, you know, in proportion to what was happening?
395
00:27:36,844 --> 00:27:40,226
And then we go back and we take apart that, that moment.
396
00:27:40,226 --> 00:27:40,886
We think,
397
00:27:40,886 --> 00:27:45,207
What are the cues of danger as we look back on it now?
398
00:27:45,207 --> 00:27:45,647
Right?
399
00:27:45,647 --> 00:27:48,388
And we identify concretely cues of danger.
400
00:27:48,388 --> 00:27:52,049
What were the cues of safety that maybe were there but you missed?
401
00:27:52,049 --> 00:27:56,830
Because we often miss the cues of safety because we're focused on the cues of danger.
402
00:27:56,885 --> 00:27:58,481
You know, supposed to be.
403
00:27:58,481 --> 00:27:59,711
That's the negativity bias.
404
00:27:59,711 --> 00:28:01,642
It works that way for all of us.
405
00:28:01,642 --> 00:28:02,872
Supposed to.
406
00:28:02,892 --> 00:28:08,744
So, but we can identify what are the cues of danger, what are the cues of safety, and then
we can get a clear
407
00:28:08,744 --> 00:28:12,538
vision of, that's why I had that response.
408
00:28:12,538 --> 00:28:16,523
My neuroception was one of danger because of this, right?
409
00:28:16,523 --> 00:28:18,164
Yeah, yeah.
410
00:28:19,346 --> 00:28:19,911
Yep.
411
00:28:19,911 --> 00:28:21,451
Like how we're working.
412
00:28:21,451 --> 00:28:31,731
So I've always been interested in stress and I feel like I have a pretty good handle on
it, but how would you distinguish trauma and stress as it relates to the patterns of the
413
00:28:31,731 --> 00:28:34,582
nervous system, if that makes sense?
414
00:28:34,582 --> 00:28:45,722
you know, it's interesting because, you know, I mean, the nervous system patterns are
shaped to serve our safety and survival, right?
415
00:28:45,722 --> 00:28:49,222
And at the moment they were shaped, they were needed.
416
00:28:49,462 --> 00:28:53,282
They may not be needed now, but they were needed then, right?
417
00:28:53,282 --> 00:29:02,902
And oftentimes when we're working with trauma, it's a response that has been carried
forward because it was wired in and it just became what the nervous system does.
418
00:29:02,902 --> 00:29:08,759
when it feels that neuroception of danger, does this pattern of response.
419
00:29:11,424 --> 00:29:26,844
Stress, you know, and I'm not even sure what we want to call stress, you know, stress or
distress or dysregulation or whatever, you know, language is interesting, isn't it?
420
00:29:26,905 --> 00:29:30,397
Because we want to stretch the nervous system.
421
00:29:30,397 --> 00:29:31,928
We're always wanting to stretch.
422
00:29:31,928 --> 00:29:35,621
So we, you know, push a little bit, try something a little new.
423
00:29:35,621 --> 00:29:36,682
That's what we do in therapy.
424
00:29:36,682 --> 00:29:38,133
We're saying, let's try this.
425
00:29:38,133 --> 00:29:40,334
Let's see what happens when we do this.
426
00:29:40,482 --> 00:29:44,063
So we want to stretch but not stress the system.
427
00:29:44,063 --> 00:29:50,985
Once we stretch and move into stress, we then move into survival.
428
00:29:51,225 --> 00:29:51,615
Right?
429
00:29:51,615 --> 00:30:00,568
So in some ways, doesn't matter how you get there, whether it's a trauma response or an
overwhelm because of all the stuff going on in my day.
430
00:30:00,568 --> 00:30:09,900
Once I hit a survival response, then my nervous system is going to be in whatever flavor
of survival response it's taken me to.
431
00:30:09,986 --> 00:30:10,466
Right?
432
00:30:10,466 --> 00:30:23,967
The thing that's different is if it's stress because of my current living environment,
what I'm doing, how I'm doing it, all of the things that are coming at me, and my system
433
00:30:23,967 --> 00:30:32,765
knows regulation, then I'm working to reduce the stress and I'll come back to regulation.
434
00:30:32,765 --> 00:30:38,549
If it's trauma, and I have a history of trauma and trauma response,
435
00:30:39,682 --> 00:30:45,805
There aren't things going on in the present day that I can reduce that will bring me to
regulation.
436
00:30:45,805 --> 00:30:53,248
I have to figure out first, I think what I do is help clients find regulation just as a
thing on its own.
437
00:30:53,248 --> 00:30:54,268
What does that feel like?
438
00:30:54,268 --> 00:31:00,431
Can I find moments, micro moments even of noticing, I'm regulated for a moment.
439
00:31:00,431 --> 00:31:02,411
That's a different experience.
440
00:31:02,532 --> 00:31:08,554
Once we have enough of those experiences, we bring some of that regulation.
441
00:31:08,578 --> 00:31:16,326
back to the traumatic moments so that we can revisit them and not relive them.
442
00:31:16,326 --> 00:31:19,058
So it's a different process, I think.
443
00:31:19,058 --> 00:31:20,460
Does that make sense?
444
00:31:20,811 --> 00:31:21,791
Yeah, no it does.
445
00:31:21,791 --> 00:31:24,511
It's a really good differentiation.
446
00:31:24,951 --> 00:31:26,421
Quick pause, is the heater back on?
447
00:31:26,421 --> 00:31:27,531
Is that what I'm hearing?
448
00:31:28,531 --> 00:31:29,981
Okay, can't control it.
449
00:31:29,981 --> 00:31:34,811
But there's artifacts that will turn, there's ways of editing that.
450
00:31:34,811 --> 00:31:36,061
So that's great.
451
00:31:36,061 --> 00:31:43,491
I think that's a really good distinction between stresses and stretching is somewhat
manageable and we have the resources of regulation.
452
00:31:43,491 --> 00:31:47,875
one of the things I think is important to talk about in understanding Polyvagal Theory,
453
00:31:48,079 --> 00:31:49,460
regulation.
454
00:31:49,581 --> 00:31:54,546
So that's the third principle along with neuroception and hierarchy.
455
00:31:54,807 --> 00:31:56,930
And so let's talk about what regulation is.
456
00:31:56,930 --> 00:32:00,514
I want to also ask you to break down the word regulation.
457
00:32:00,514 --> 00:32:07,321
It's a little abstract and if you can kind of give us some body and feeling of what's it
mean to be regulated.
458
00:32:08,371 --> 00:32:14,015
and everybody's going to have a different experience of that, but regulation happens.
459
00:32:14,015 --> 00:32:16,167
Our body comes into some sort of balance.
460
00:32:16,167 --> 00:32:23,542
Your ventral vagal state is now running the show, so to speak, in your nervous system.
461
00:32:23,542 --> 00:32:29,548
And when that happens, we have access to curiosity, to...
462
00:32:29,548 --> 00:32:37,782
passion, to purpose, to quiet, to play, to all of those lovely experiences, right?
463
00:32:37,782 --> 00:32:47,787
And our body feels, I don't know, the sense I have in my body when I'm feeling some
regulation is there's this, it's a flow of some sort.
464
00:32:47,787 --> 00:32:53,289
Sympathetic feels very disjointed and chaotic and dorsal feels flat.
465
00:32:53,529 --> 00:32:57,441
so, know, ventral feels like there's a flow to it.
466
00:32:57,441 --> 00:32:59,492
And that's one of the first things we do is
467
00:32:59,492 --> 00:33:05,889
you know, help people identify how does your body show you you're in a bit of balance, a
bit of regulation.
468
00:33:06,151 --> 00:33:06,675
Right.
469
00:33:06,675 --> 00:33:14,884
Yeah, I love that in your book, Anchored, and the way you invite people to explore their
own language of this Polyvagal Theory.
470
00:33:14,884 --> 00:33:17,967
for me, when I'm in ventral vagal, I call it my twin brother.
471
00:33:17,967 --> 00:33:19,018
It's like an IFS thing.
472
00:33:19,018 --> 00:33:22,901
It's like I have this part of me that just like isn't hung up on anything.
473
00:33:22,901 --> 00:33:23,763
It's just open.
474
00:33:23,763 --> 00:33:24,774
It's ready for it.
475
00:33:24,774 --> 00:33:27,547
There's just, it's just here and it's alive, you know?
476
00:33:27,547 --> 00:33:29,399
Mm-hmm.
477
00:33:29,502 --> 00:33:34,162
I love hearing everybody's description of what ventral is for them.
478
00:33:34,202 --> 00:33:38,422
I mean, that's really the joy of being human.
479
00:33:38,462 --> 00:33:45,052
It's the same biological state and we describe it so differently and it feels so different
to us.
480
00:33:45,052 --> 00:33:47,362
I just love yours, that was lovely.
481
00:33:47,582 --> 00:33:51,842
Yeah, yeah, yeah, so, yeah.
482
00:33:52,592 --> 00:33:57,607
So is there more on the regulation part on the skills around that or on the?
483
00:33:57,607 --> 00:34:00,207
have two categories of regulation.
484
00:34:00,207 --> 00:34:11,811
We have co-regulation, which is what I do with other people to feel connected, to feel
safe, to feel balanced, and then what I do on my own.
485
00:34:12,172 --> 00:34:13,652
And we need both.
486
00:34:14,072 --> 00:34:19,054
And the interesting thing for many trauma survivors,
487
00:34:19,754 --> 00:34:32,000
when they came into the world, they weren't met with a person who had a regulated nervous
system who could help them, who could do that, you you're here and I'm going to, you know,
488
00:34:32,000 --> 00:34:34,441
be with you and support your growth.
489
00:34:34,441 --> 00:34:35,521
They didn't get that.
490
00:34:35,521 --> 00:34:38,303
So they didn't learn that co-regulating skill.
491
00:34:38,303 --> 00:34:40,624
They had to self-regulate instead.
492
00:34:40,624 --> 00:34:41,524
Right.
493
00:34:41,524 --> 00:34:45,710
And so that that's backwards in the way we're meant to develop.
494
00:34:45,710 --> 00:34:48,350
We're supposed to co-regulate and then self-regulate.
495
00:34:48,350 --> 00:34:52,910
And for so many of us, that's twisted upside down, right?
496
00:34:52,910 --> 00:34:54,990
That said, we still need both.
497
00:34:54,990 --> 00:34:57,850
Over the course of our lifetime, we still need both.
498
00:34:57,850 --> 00:35:07,090
So if you're really good at self-regulating, because you had to be, it may be a challenge
to trust people enough to co-regulate, right?
499
00:35:07,090 --> 00:35:09,170
And it's necessary.
500
00:35:09,370 --> 00:35:13,846
So as we work with people, we are.
501
00:35:13,878 --> 00:35:17,262
maybe the first person that's been safe enough to co-regulate with.
502
00:35:17,262 --> 00:35:20,125
We take that on in the helping profession.
503
00:35:20,125 --> 00:35:24,332
It's our job to be regulated and offer that welcome, right?
504
00:35:24,332 --> 00:35:33,001
and that's where like the transference stuff comes in and that whole thing because it's
this need and all of sudden it can be confusing to suddenly have it met by your therapist
505
00:35:33,001 --> 00:35:33,862
or whatever you.
506
00:35:33,862 --> 00:35:40,237
scary to a nervous system to have, because that's an unfamiliar experience.
507
00:35:40,237 --> 00:35:44,331
And unfamiliar is often a cue of danger to the nervous system.
508
00:35:44,331 --> 00:35:47,444
Rather than being exciting, ooh, what's gonna happen?
509
00:35:47,444 --> 00:35:49,806
It's terrifying, right?
510
00:35:49,806 --> 00:35:54,289
So, and unpredictable is the other one that I like to talk about, unfamiliar,
unpredictable.
511
00:35:54,289 --> 00:36:00,064
They are both often cues of danger to a nervous system that has not experienced a lot of
safety.
512
00:36:00,595 --> 00:36:05,077
Yeah, I mean, it's so we're so close to the political conversation, but I don't want to go
there quite yet.
513
00:36:05,077 --> 00:36:09,520
I want to turn towards the well, Chinese medicine.
514
00:36:09,560 --> 00:36:20,146
There's a great, fantastic teacher, man named Jeffrey Yuen He's like 88th, 88th holder of
all these titles in the Taoist tradition.
515
00:36:20,146 --> 00:36:23,487
And he's I've seen him teach and he's amazing.
516
00:36:23,487 --> 00:36:30,475
He's understated, but he's wise and calm beyond and informed beyond most
517
00:36:30,475 --> 00:36:31,655
people I've ever met.
518
00:36:31,655 --> 00:36:35,195
And one of the things I heard him talk about, there's this idea, there's so channels,
right?
519
00:36:35,195 --> 00:36:36,555
So nervous system and channels.
520
00:36:36,555 --> 00:36:38,434
We've all heard about meridians and channels.
521
00:36:38,434 --> 00:36:43,995
And I remember him describing, there's these extraordinary channels, right?
522
00:36:43,995 --> 00:36:47,135
There's the regular channels of the organs, but then there's these extra ones.
523
00:36:47,135 --> 00:36:53,845
And some of them are platforms at which the way he described it in my recollection is it's
kind of like our evolution.
524
00:36:53,845 --> 00:37:00,285
It's like, this is the platform, but the REN, which is also called the conception, which
is the front channel in the middle,
525
00:37:00,285 --> 00:37:02,015
and comes up to the eyes.
526
00:37:02,015 --> 00:37:08,880
I remember him describing it was like this, the baby and the mom and the Ren comes online.
527
00:37:08,880 --> 00:37:16,144
It needs that contact, that eye contact and that chest connection and that body
connection, right?
528
00:37:16,144 --> 00:37:23,288
Where of being met for the Ren actually to start functioning and the Ren is the Chinese
word for human.
529
00:37:23,288 --> 00:37:29,951
know, so our humanity comes and you know, there's connections with the Ren channel in the
heart and other interrelated things, but
530
00:37:31,165 --> 00:37:32,821
It's the same story for me.
531
00:37:33,067 --> 00:37:34,579
It's that same conversation.
532
00:37:34,579 --> 00:37:35,579
yeah.
533
00:37:35,960 --> 00:37:47,504
And the, don't about the Ren you'll have to tell me, but the lovely thing about the
nervous system and the hopeful experience around Steve's Polyvagal Theory is that those
534
00:37:47,504 --> 00:37:49,665
connections are waiting, right?
535
00:37:49,665 --> 00:37:58,449
And if they were missed early on, doesn't mean they can't be felt and connected and
brought to life later.
536
00:37:58,449 --> 00:38:00,822
And I love that about the...
537
00:38:00,822 --> 00:38:02,928
our human biology, it's waiting.
538
00:38:02,928 --> 00:38:05,566
It's just waiting, yeah.
539
00:38:05,707 --> 00:38:14,087
Yeah, which is a passion of mine, is, I often describe it as ending the subtle war against
human nature, you know?
540
00:38:14,087 --> 00:38:15,857
Like how can we make peace with it?
541
00:38:15,857 --> 00:38:27,147
And one of the things I love about Polyvagal Theory is, and I've been working with this
idea, what I call Stress Intelligence for a while, that stress is an ancient, more primary
542
00:38:27,147 --> 00:38:35,019
system than emotional intelligence, that stress evolved before emotions, and emotions are,
you know, the
543
00:38:35,019 --> 00:38:37,609
outcropping of understanding our stress, know, right?
544
00:38:37,609 --> 00:38:40,299
So whether we're in safety or are in danger, right?
545
00:38:40,299 --> 00:38:44,079
So then all of sudden the emotions start coming up and the signals start coming up.
546
00:38:44,079 --> 00:38:49,059
So what's beautiful about the Polyvagal Theory because I kind of was like, there's that
thing Polyvagal Theory.
547
00:38:49,059 --> 00:38:50,719
I'm seeing it everywhere.
548
00:38:50,779 --> 00:38:52,149
Another thing, right?
549
00:38:52,149 --> 00:38:57,219
And then my buddy, Jesse, he's a great chiropractor, functional medicine guy.
550
00:38:57,259 --> 00:38:57,513
And
551
00:38:57,513 --> 00:39:00,626
He started talking about it like, maybe I should pay attention to this, you know?
552
00:39:00,626 --> 00:39:12,194
And then what I found was like, my God, this is exactly what I've been thinking about for
a long time, explained in relationship to the nervous system.
553
00:39:12,835 --> 00:39:16,508
And that means, like you said, I don't have to go anywhere to find it.
554
00:39:16,508 --> 00:39:19,420
It's right here, if I can open myself.
555
00:39:19,481 --> 00:39:22,163
And yet it's called a theory, right?
556
00:39:22,163 --> 00:39:22,793
So.
557
00:39:22,793 --> 00:39:35,031
talk to help us just to kind of give breath to the perspective on that we are talking
about a theory and it's how it's held and how you hold and understand it as you know
558
00:39:35,031 --> 00:39:40,691
science evidence reality or experiential tool right where are you at with that
559
00:39:40,691 --> 00:39:43,932
It's a great question and it is a theory.
560
00:39:43,932 --> 00:39:45,743
Steve's an academic.
561
00:39:45,743 --> 00:39:49,374
He's a scientist and an academic and they create theories.
562
00:39:49,374 --> 00:39:56,676
you know, and they put them out there and for people to, you know, challenge or support
or, you know, let's see what happens.
563
00:39:56,676 --> 00:39:59,356
Let's see how it, you know, emerges and unfolds.
564
00:39:59,356 --> 00:40:05,720
And, you know, there have been hundreds and hundreds of peer-reviewed articles now that
are, that support his
565
00:40:05,720 --> 00:40:07,410
basic findings.
566
00:40:08,291 --> 00:40:20,014
I will say there's also a group who put out the conversation that there's a fallacy in
Steve's theory.
567
00:40:20,114 --> 00:40:27,016
And I often meet people who come to my trainings who bring that up.
568
00:40:27,016 --> 00:40:30,127
then colleagues have clients who say, it's really not true.
569
00:40:30,127 --> 00:40:33,568
And I say, well, let's look at it this way.
570
00:40:33,886 --> 00:40:38,088
Steve just wrote an article actually and it's on the Polyvagal Institute website.
571
00:40:38,088 --> 00:40:45,932
It's called the Vagal Paradox, I believe, that addresses the points of contention one by
one.
572
00:40:46,153 --> 00:40:56,738
And this faction and Steve are having an argument about something, you might like it,
something that happened 400 million years ago, right?
573
00:40:56,979 --> 00:41:03,638
There's a discussion about the branching off in the phylogenetic history, right?
574
00:41:03,638 --> 00:41:15,111
which, okay, I read the article, it's a deep scientific read, I still don't understand it,
and I have to say, as a clinician, it really doesn't make a difference, right?
575
00:41:15,111 --> 00:41:26,564
Because what happens for me when I teach people about their nervous system and they get to
know how their nervous system works, they begin to change the way they navigate life, and
576
00:41:26,564 --> 00:41:33,246
they begin to have more capacity for connection and safety and regulation, and they begin
healing.
577
00:41:33,408 --> 00:41:36,099
As a clinician, that's what I want to see.
578
00:41:36,099 --> 00:41:45,803
So, you know, I'm going to leave the scientific argument up to the scientists in the
academics and say, for me, this is a brilliant theory.
579
00:41:45,803 --> 00:41:48,164
I will also say it will always be a theory.
580
00:41:48,164 --> 00:41:53,106
It's never going to move from theory to to clinical protocol.
581
00:41:53,106 --> 00:41:53,536
Right.
582
00:41:53,536 --> 00:42:02,306
Because what I teach and what other people and nowadays, if you Google Polyvagal theory,
you're going to get just overwhelmed with stuff.
583
00:42:02,306 --> 00:42:11,131
But what I teach and what Steve and I really believe is you learn the outline of the
theory, you learn the organizing principles.
584
00:42:11,151 --> 00:42:22,237
And then within that framework, it's more of this, you go with the nervous system of your
client invites you to go where the nervous system says, here's where some work needs to
585
00:42:22,237 --> 00:42:23,138
happen.
586
00:42:23,138 --> 00:42:26,880
So unlike, take IFS, you and I are both IFS trained.
587
00:42:26,880 --> 00:42:31,576
Unlike IFS that has more of a standard protocol that you follow.
588
00:42:31,576 --> 00:42:43,955
with steps in a polyvagal informed approach, you're going to use the organizing principles
and follow that pathway.
589
00:42:43,955 --> 00:42:49,359
So people ask me all the time, can I get certified in Polyvagal Theory therapy?
590
00:42:49,359 --> 00:42:52,200
said, no, there's no such thing, nor will there ever be.
591
00:42:52,461 --> 00:43:00,266
But the joy of it is when you understand the organizing principles, you are going to go
work with a nervous system in the way that works for you.
592
00:43:02,281 --> 00:43:02,961
Yeah, beautiful.
593
00:43:02,961 --> 00:43:03,531
Thanks.
594
00:43:03,531 --> 00:43:04,912
I agree with that.
595
00:43:04,912 --> 00:43:15,685
you know, Chinese medical theory and the explanation of Chinese medical physiology, you
know, doesn't hold up exactly to what we know about the body now, but it's still
596
00:43:15,685 --> 00:43:16,695
effective.
597
00:43:17,015 --> 00:43:18,126
It still works, right?
598
00:43:18,126 --> 00:43:24,888
So it doesn't have to and I'm just interviewed someone who's in the in the Vedic tradition
and the Kirtan tradition recently.
599
00:43:24,888 --> 00:43:26,228
And it's the same kind of thing.
600
00:43:26,228 --> 00:43:30,091
Like there's a whole story of gods and goddesses and
601
00:43:30,091 --> 00:43:37,011
qualities and attributes that people relate with and do practices with and it makes a
difference.
602
00:43:37,051 --> 00:43:37,831
You know what I mean?
603
00:43:37,831 --> 00:43:48,931
So I'm with the embodied experiential level but also like to kind of like push against a
little bit of the science and reality and kind of keep both.
604
00:43:48,931 --> 00:43:51,591
As you said, bottom up, bottom up, this is working.
605
00:43:51,591 --> 00:43:54,211
My nervous system's in a better state and top down, like what's going on?
606
00:43:54,211 --> 00:43:55,364
What's my perception here?
607
00:43:55,364 --> 00:44:01,506
I mean, because lots of what Steve talks about, he began studying premature babies.
608
00:44:01,506 --> 00:44:11,019
That's where this all began, who at that time, we thought the vagus was life-affirming and
sympathetic was the fight and flight.
609
00:44:11,019 --> 00:44:11,689
That's all we knew.
610
00:44:11,689 --> 00:44:14,200
We didn't know there was a dorsal aspect.
611
00:44:14,200 --> 00:44:15,448
And someone asked,
612
00:44:15,448 --> 00:44:20,813
Well, in premature babies, how can the vagus be both life-affirming and life-threatening?
613
00:44:20,813 --> 00:44:25,987
Because the dorsal would bring bradycardias and would stop hearts and stop breathing.
614
00:44:25,987 --> 00:44:29,090
And that's what set him off on this journey, which I love.
615
00:44:29,090 --> 00:44:31,192
I think it's a lovely starting place.
616
00:44:31,192 --> 00:44:37,978
But heart rate variability has been one of the things he's used as a measure and studied
for decades and decades.
617
00:44:37,978 --> 00:44:43,456
We can see the science of changes in heart rate variability.
618
00:44:43,456 --> 00:44:47,039
as the nervous system reshapes in more regulated ways.
619
00:44:47,039 --> 00:44:53,615
So it's not that there's no science, it's just that there's questions about other things.
620
00:44:53,615 --> 00:44:55,496
And so I do like the both-and.
621
00:44:55,496 --> 00:44:57,257
For me, that works.
622
00:44:58,863 --> 00:45:00,726
Does that bring us close to the vagal break?
623
00:45:00,726 --> 00:45:05,321
And is that something that's really important to understand when you talk about this
theory?
624
00:45:05,494 --> 00:45:20,421
the vagal break is, I tell Steve all the time when I teach, it is so important and
complicated and sometimes people think it's backwards, it's paradoxical, it's confusing.
625
00:45:20,421 --> 00:45:22,281
So let's dive in for a moment.
626
00:45:22,281 --> 00:45:27,153
The vagal break is one of the circuits of the ventral vagal system.
627
00:45:27,153 --> 00:45:29,524
It goes from your medulla to your heart.
628
00:45:29,524 --> 00:45:33,536
It goes to the sinoatrial node of your heart and its job
629
00:45:33,588 --> 00:45:36,290
is to let your heart rate speed up or decrease.
630
00:45:36,290 --> 00:45:37,300
That's what it does.
631
00:45:37,300 --> 00:45:40,822
So it sort of creates that heart rate variability, right?
632
00:45:40,822 --> 00:45:45,755
And so your vagal break always works, right?
633
00:45:45,755 --> 00:45:47,906
You don't have a broken vagal break, right?
634
00:45:47,906 --> 00:45:53,849
We know that because every time you inhale, your vagal break releases a little and your
heart rate speeds up.
635
00:45:53,849 --> 00:45:57,111
Every time you exhale, it re-engages, your heart rate slows down.
636
00:45:57,111 --> 00:45:59,492
So everybody's vagal break is working.
637
00:45:59,492 --> 00:46:02,754
It's how efficiently it's working that we're...
638
00:46:02,754 --> 00:46:04,054
we're looking at now.
639
00:46:04,054 --> 00:46:08,406
So we're trying to find ways to measure vagal efficiency, right?
640
00:46:08,406 --> 00:46:23,540
Because if my vagal break can only release a little bit before it lets go, and when the
vagal break reaches its limit, it lets go and you go into sympathetic survival, right?
641
00:46:23,540 --> 00:46:32,492
So instead of being able to use the energy of the sympathetic nervous system in a
regulated way,
642
00:46:32,886 --> 00:46:37,708
which happens when the vagal break releases but is still on.
643
00:46:38,028 --> 00:46:41,249
When the vagal break releases all the way, you're now in survival.
644
00:46:41,249 --> 00:46:47,152
And so for many people, the vagal break has a limited capacity.
645
00:46:47,486 --> 00:46:53,254
It can release just a little bit and after that, it's gone and you're in survival.
646
00:46:53,334 --> 00:46:57,896
If you grew up in a dangerous world, that's usually your vagal breaks experience.
647
00:46:57,896 --> 00:47:02,528
And what we do in therapy is we exercise the vagal break.
648
00:47:02,670 --> 00:47:04,270
So it becomes more flexible.
649
00:47:04,270 --> 00:47:10,530
It has more capacity to release but not let go.
650
00:47:10,609 --> 00:47:13,950
So it's a beauty and it's part of your biology.
651
00:47:13,950 --> 00:47:17,610
mean, people ask me all the time, they say, no, it's truly part of your biology.
652
00:47:17,610 --> 00:47:25,290
This is something, it's a circuit that exists and we can work with it to help it work more
efficiently.
653
00:47:26,070 --> 00:47:34,476
Which is amazing because in Chinese medicine there's the pericardium channel which is the
heart protector and the kidney channel runs right up which is basically the place of fear
654
00:47:34,476 --> 00:47:43,942
and survival in the system and runs right up through the heart and communicates with the
pericardium which is amazing just to see that overlay.
655
00:47:45,764 --> 00:47:48,165
I want to talk a little bit about this
656
00:47:49,267 --> 00:47:52,227
sense of, okay, so regulation is ventral regulation.
657
00:47:52,227 --> 00:47:54,949
Our neuroception says, hey, it's okay to be safe.
658
00:47:55,270 --> 00:47:59,231
And then there's this dysregulated idea.
659
00:47:59,231 --> 00:48:08,675
And I'm a, at times, I'm a defender of the ego, because I believe the ego is part of the
evolutionary project.
660
00:48:08,675 --> 00:48:09,996
And it's part of the structures.
661
00:48:09,996 --> 00:48:11,926
I just think we're in a mismatch environment.
662
00:48:11,926 --> 00:48:18,819
And so the ego looks and smells worse than it actually is, because our environments are
radically different than what they were.
663
00:48:19,083 --> 00:48:27,528
And I'm also interested in the positive side of the sympathetic nervous system and the
dorsal vagus nerve.
664
00:48:27,528 --> 00:48:29,662
So can we kind of give some air time to that?
665
00:48:29,662 --> 00:48:30,503
Yeah.
666
00:48:30,904 --> 00:48:43,693
So when ventral is around and it's working in connection with sympathetic, you can have
this, and this is really your vagal break, right?
667
00:48:43,693 --> 00:48:53,179
Vagal break has allowed you to have a lot of access to sympathetic, mobilizing, activating
energy under the management of ventral.
668
00:48:53,179 --> 00:48:56,001
That's what we, you you might call that a positive sympathetic.
669
00:48:56,001 --> 00:48:57,482
That's a sympathetic.
670
00:48:57,947 --> 00:49:07,294
that pushes you forward and it's exciting and you're active and you're purposeful and
you're driven in a healthy way rather than out of a place of fear.
671
00:49:07,755 --> 00:49:15,060
So neuroception is one of safety and you've got lots of energy flowing through your system
because ventral and sympathetic are working together.
672
00:49:15,801 --> 00:49:18,133
The same is true of ventral and dorsal.
673
00:49:18,133 --> 00:49:27,400
When ventral dorsal work together, we can come to that lovely place of rest and renew, of
becoming, I call it, becoming safely still.
674
00:49:27,682 --> 00:49:34,388
because dorsal immobilizes you, but ventral brings the safety and the social connection
there.
675
00:49:34,388 --> 00:49:36,649
So I can sit in silence.
676
00:49:36,650 --> 00:49:43,915
We could sit together in silence, companionable silence, and not feel worried that
somebody has to say something.
677
00:49:44,356 --> 00:49:47,799
It's this beautiful place of renewal.
678
00:49:47,799 --> 00:49:56,588
Without ventral there, dorsal rescues you from the overwhelm of sympathetic, so it gets
you out of
679
00:49:56,588 --> 00:50:04,000
the flood of sympathetic fight and flight, but it doesn't fill you, it doesn't nourish
you, it just gets you away from that.
680
00:50:04,261 --> 00:50:11,903
So it can feel like a relief, but it doesn't nourish you, it doesn't fill you the way it
would if ventral was there too.
681
00:50:11,903 --> 00:50:21,706
So again, we see that ventral is this essential piece that has to be present in order for
us to feel like we're being filled by anything.
682
00:50:22,421 --> 00:50:24,173
How much of that is a mindset thing?
683
00:50:24,173 --> 00:50:33,621
I know for me, in the middle part of my marriage, Alice and have been together, she's also
a licensed clinical social worker, by the way, so nod to all the social workers in private
684
00:50:33,621 --> 00:50:34,982
practice doing therapy.
685
00:50:34,982 --> 00:50:42,719
But we've been together, let's see, 27 years, and I think there was some period of time
where I felt bad when I would shut down.
686
00:50:42,719 --> 00:50:45,791
And then I realized the less I felt bad about it,
687
00:50:45,791 --> 00:50:47,493
the more I was able to cycle through it.
688
00:50:47,493 --> 00:50:54,060
In other words, I started going, you know, this may be like a stereotypical man cave
thing, but I'd be like, okay, I need cave time.
689
00:50:54,060 --> 00:50:56,543
My nervous system is not working right now.
690
00:50:56,543 --> 00:51:06,024
So how much can we kind of just take the dorsal (vagal) response, shift our mindset, give
ourselves permission, and then all of a sudden we can get ventral (vagal) to ourselves
691
00:51:06,024 --> 00:51:06,991
with ourselves?
692
00:51:06,991 --> 00:51:07,590
that's it.
693
00:51:07,590 --> 00:51:15,213
You know, To be able to say, to recognize my nervous system is, needs me to leave and be
by myself.
694
00:51:15,213 --> 00:51:18,384
That's the the notice and name practice, right?
695
00:51:18,384 --> 00:51:30,768
And when you notice and name, you're already beginning to turn toward your dorsal rather
than being pulled into, right?
696
00:51:30,768 --> 00:51:31,818
And as we
697
00:51:31,818 --> 00:51:33,549
intentionally turn towards say, "okay...
698
00:51:33,549 --> 00:51:36,471
I'm just going to lie down for a while.
699
00:51:36,471 --> 00:51:43,286
I'm just going to go be by myself for a bit." You're allowing, You're honoring the wisdom
of your nervous system.
700
00:51:43,286 --> 00:51:46,308
You're allowing it to do what it needs to do.
701
00:51:46,308 --> 00:51:49,831
And again, it will help you begin to find your way back.
702
00:51:49,831 --> 00:51:50,922
Yeah.
703
00:51:50,922 --> 00:51:59,938
And just by not, you know, being in that shaming, blaming of yourself and your system
place, which reinforces the survival need.
704
00:51:59,938 --> 00:52:02,495
you are already beginning to soften that.
705
00:52:02,495 --> 00:52:03,416
Yeah.
706
00:52:03,420 --> 00:52:04,232
Yeah.
707
00:52:07,967 --> 00:52:08,427
Beautiful.
708
00:52:08,427 --> 00:52:09,647
How you doing?
709
00:52:10,287 --> 00:52:11,387
Good, good, good.
710
00:52:11,387 --> 00:52:14,177
We're almost coming up on an hour and I got a couple ideas.
711
00:52:14,177 --> 00:52:17,147
Do you have any ideas right now?
712
00:52:17,347 --> 00:52:18,847
Okay, good.
713
00:52:22,767 --> 00:52:24,207
Yeah, I turned my heater off too.
714
00:52:24,207 --> 00:52:24,927
It's starting to get a little cold.
715
00:52:24,927 --> 00:52:28,167
Not like Chicago cold, but it's getting a little cold in here.
716
00:52:29,727 --> 00:52:34,403
Let's see, I had a thought a second ago and I wanted to talk about...
717
00:52:35,411 --> 00:52:37,912
Hmm, let me check my notes.
718
00:52:38,953 --> 00:52:39,693
I know.
719
00:52:39,693 --> 00:52:50,577
So I find once I started understanding Polyvagal Theory and in my IFS coaching with my
clients that they actually validate each other.
720
00:52:51,278 --> 00:53:00,962
They validate each other in this profound way that I started noticing like, okay, that
person's talking about their dorsal vagal response and it's being personified in this way,
721
00:53:00,962 --> 00:53:03,153
in this part, a blocking part or...
722
00:53:03,935 --> 00:53:10,908
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
723
00:53:10,908 --> 00:53:13,880
I mean, it's an easy integration, think.
724
00:53:14,940 --> 00:53:21,853
And that's probably true for other models of therapy as well, because really we're all
doing the same thing.
725
00:53:21,853 --> 00:53:28,066
We're just sort of going at it in a bit different way, but we're all working with the same
thing.
726
00:53:28,066 --> 00:53:36,369
What I say about, people ask me about IFS all the time and what I say is, you know, yes,
self is one of the emergent properties of ventral, absolutely.
727
00:53:36,710 --> 00:53:41,121
Your firefighters are either going to be sympathetically charged or dorsal.
728
00:53:41,121 --> 00:53:46,293
They're going to either, you know, be active or they're going to make you fuzzy, numb,
whatever.
729
00:53:46,293 --> 00:53:48,684
Your managers, some are sympathetic.
730
00:53:48,684 --> 00:53:50,575
have managers who are ventral.
731
00:53:50,575 --> 00:53:56,538
And exiles are pretty much in a dorsal, you know, shame-based exiled place, right?
732
00:53:56,538 --> 00:53:57,978
And I think the,
733
00:53:58,667 --> 00:54:12,898
The thing that, the way I think about it is that when you enter a state, so if I enter
into sympathetic dysregulation, then all of my parts that live in sympathetic
734
00:54:12,898 --> 00:54:16,821
dysregulation are now available to take over my system.
735
00:54:17,262 --> 00:54:20,104
And one of them is going to, right?
736
00:54:20,104 --> 00:54:21,686
The same is true for dorsal.
737
00:54:21,686 --> 00:54:23,787
I've got lots of parts that live in dorsal.
738
00:54:23,787 --> 00:54:27,254
When I enter dorsal, one of them is gonna grab hold and say,
739
00:54:27,254 --> 00:54:29,375
I'm the one today.
740
00:54:29,716 --> 00:54:31,558
Yeah, right, right.
741
00:54:31,558 --> 00:54:50,234
So my experience working with people who are both parts savvy and wanting to work with
their nervous system is I work with the state first because if I work to help you find
742
00:54:50,234 --> 00:54:54,698
your way to sympathetic and bring some regulation to sympathetic.
743
00:54:54,826 --> 00:54:58,048
every part that lives there is having the benefit of that.
744
00:54:58,188 --> 00:54:58,499
Right?
745
00:54:58,499 --> 00:55:03,152
Not just working with one part, I'm working with the state rather than the part.
746
00:55:03,152 --> 00:55:03,562
Right?
747
00:55:03,562 --> 00:55:15,750
And I've discovered that there's this amazing sort of collective unburdening that can
happen without you ever going to a part because you're changing the environment that they
748
00:55:15,750 --> 00:55:20,213
exist in and they unburden and restore automatically on their own.
749
00:55:20,213 --> 00:55:24,148
And then you find there are some parts that need
750
00:55:24,148 --> 00:55:26,719
know, individual specialized attention.
751
00:55:26,719 --> 00:55:35,034
for me, and when I do this, I'm always curious to see what people are gonna say, because I
have a lot of IFS therapists who do demos with me.
752
00:55:35,034 --> 00:55:39,786
And the last one, the woman said, my God, that just felt so efficient.
753
00:55:39,906 --> 00:55:41,707
And that's the word that I use all the time.
754
00:55:41,707 --> 00:55:45,730
It's efficient because you get a whole bunch of change happening at once.
755
00:55:45,730 --> 00:55:47,053
So yeah.
756
00:55:47,053 --> 00:55:55,710
So give an example of how you help someone regulate into a sympathetic state that helps a
whole bunch of parts that are in the sympathetic domain.
757
00:55:55,710 --> 00:55:59,021
So we anchor in Ventral first, the two of us, right?
758
00:55:59,021 --> 00:56:11,195
And then from that anchor in Ventral, we are going to then move to just outside the
sympathetic experience and we're gonna stop there and feel what it's like to bring Ventral
759
00:56:11,195 --> 00:56:15,496
to a place that is not familiar with that experience.
760
00:56:15,636 --> 00:56:22,418
And then we very slowly are going to see what if we stepped inside and we came out and
the...
761
00:56:22,924 --> 00:56:34,572
whatever happens inside there, it's a landscape in there that I usually help them bring to
life and we step into it and feel what happens as you bring some ventral, tempering energy
762
00:56:34,572 --> 00:56:38,496
into the sympathetic environment, right?
763
00:56:38,496 --> 00:56:46,979
So you focus a little bit more on the context of the landscape rather than what's the part
there that's holding that voice, right?
764
00:56:46,979 --> 00:56:49,833
And so by, okay, yeah, okay.
765
00:56:50,294 --> 00:56:50,781
Yeah.
766
00:56:50,781 --> 00:57:01,708
the whole landscape and have the person, because they are in enough ventral that they can
walk into that what was a terrifying landscape.
767
00:57:01,708 --> 00:57:03,209
And I'm usually walking with them.
768
00:57:03,209 --> 00:57:03,769
That's the other thing.
769
00:57:03,769 --> 00:57:06,671
I always ask my clients, do you want me to go with you?
770
00:57:06,911 --> 00:57:07,532
Right?
771
00:57:07,532 --> 00:57:11,764
Usually they say yes, because their experiences, they've been there alone.
772
00:57:12,211 --> 00:57:12,712
Right.
773
00:57:12,712 --> 00:57:14,184
happens in isolation.
774
00:57:14,184 --> 00:57:17,727
Sometimes clients will say, no, but would you be where I can reach you if I need you?
775
00:57:17,727 --> 00:57:19,087
Absolutely.
776
00:57:19,388 --> 00:57:27,215
So we walk in and then their biology has a different experience of what was sympathetic.
777
00:57:27,215 --> 00:57:31,558
Survival is now tempered by having ventral there too.
778
00:57:31,558 --> 00:57:35,812
So it changes the biology and something reorganizes.
779
00:57:35,812 --> 00:57:41,606
And then oftentimes we do this work without ever knowing any of the story.
780
00:57:42,365 --> 00:57:43,415
Amazing.
781
00:57:43,715 --> 00:57:49,517
Yeah, no, that's amazing because, you know, it's, well, it's hit me at a lot of levels.
782
00:57:49,517 --> 00:57:55,359
But one I would say that really is speaking to me right now is the environmental aspect of
it.
783
00:57:55,359 --> 00:58:05,042
You know, so much of what we individually suffer with and we take as personal parts that I
have personal parts around this are actually, and you talk about this in your book,
784
00:58:05,042 --> 00:58:07,533
Anchored, the context, understanding the context.
785
00:58:07,533 --> 00:58:09,063
So I really love
786
00:58:09,093 --> 00:58:14,136
that your medicine and your healing path is thinking about the nervous system context.
787
00:58:14,136 --> 00:58:18,358
And I think for me, that's been a really freeing thing.
788
00:58:18,358 --> 00:58:21,750
Because I know a lot of people walk around being like, why am I this way?
789
00:58:21,750 --> 00:58:26,983
And it seems like a personal failing and the mistrust of the nervous system kicks in,
yada, yada, yada.
790
00:58:26,983 --> 00:58:32,196
And you're like, no, the context in which you've been stewing is not clear.
791
00:58:32,196 --> 00:58:32,986
It's not right.
792
00:58:32,986 --> 00:58:34,757
So that's really, really profound.
793
00:58:34,757 --> 00:58:36,378
Thank you for sharing that.
794
00:58:36,598 --> 00:58:38,239
Yeah, I love that.
795
00:58:39,177 --> 00:58:44,441
Speaking of environments, are you okay looking at the kind of collective nervous system,
right?
796
00:58:44,441 --> 00:58:47,513
Because we have how many nervous systems in America right now?
797
00:58:47,634 --> 00:58:58,563
And a lot of them are in all sorts of states and all over the world, know, there's war,
there's famine, there's a lot going on, you know, and it's heavy even to say it out loud
798
00:58:58,563 --> 00:59:09,161
right now, but how can something like this, I've been clear the internal family systems is
helpful.
799
00:59:09,533 --> 00:59:17,192
and a path for healing suffering among other paths.
800
00:59:17,192 --> 00:59:25,072
But how can Polyvagal understanding the nervous system reach beyond the therapy room,
reach beyond a podcast?
801
00:59:25,072 --> 00:59:26,273
Like what's your sense of that?
802
00:59:26,273 --> 00:59:27,675
And I'm not, maybe you don't have answers.
803
00:59:27,675 --> 00:59:29,907
It's not, maybe it's an unfair question, but.
804
00:59:30,555 --> 00:59:42,352
I think I've been asked this a lot over the past months and I teach as you do around the
world and around the world people are suffering with with dysregulation and what I've come
805
00:59:42,352 --> 00:59:53,648
to a couple things I've come to one we have great groups of people who are sympathetically
dysregulated they're in fight or they're in flight right and we have another great group
806
00:59:53,648 --> 00:59:56,990
of people who are in that hopeless despair collapse
807
00:59:57,090 --> 00:59:57,400
Right?
808
00:59:57,400 --> 01:00:00,671
And we have some people who are holding onto ventral.
809
01:00:00,692 --> 01:00:01,312
Right?
810
01:00:01,312 --> 01:00:15,589
The trouble is we need more anchored in ventral so that we can then spread that energy out
to invite the dysregulated nervous systems to feel a little bit safer, a little more
811
01:00:15,589 --> 01:00:22,142
welcome, so that they can begin to come to a bit more regulation and we can begin to have
some conversations.
812
01:00:22,142 --> 01:00:26,263
Because we can't have conversations when we're in survival states.
813
01:00:27,476 --> 01:00:34,618
So the goal is not to try and sit down and talk to someone who's sympathetically
dysregulated.
814
01:00:34,618 --> 01:00:42,479
The goal is what do they need to feel a little bit safer so they can come to a bit of
regulation so we then can talk, right?
815
01:00:42,479 --> 01:00:47,720
And, know, systemically, yes, we have we have collective nervous systems.
816
01:00:47,720 --> 01:00:49,731
have, you know, dyads.
817
01:00:49,731 --> 01:00:50,641
We have families.
818
01:00:50,641 --> 01:00:51,361
We have culture.
819
01:00:51,361 --> 01:00:52,691
have society.
820
01:00:52,691 --> 01:00:55,542
We have all these huge nervous systems.
821
01:00:55,542 --> 01:01:00,285
And we have systems that we need to try and shape differently.
822
01:01:00,285 --> 01:01:03,627
Academic systems, medical systems, political systems.
823
01:01:03,848 --> 01:01:07,791
I get overwhelmed pretty quickly when I think about these huge systems.
824
01:01:07,791 --> 01:01:14,495
I will say it is not my strong suit to try and figure out how to change those systems.
825
01:01:14,775 --> 01:01:17,887
And I can come back to this system, right?
826
01:01:17,887 --> 01:01:20,479
This system I have some management over.
827
01:01:20,479 --> 01:01:24,872
And I can come back and I can say, if I regulate my system,
828
01:01:25,346 --> 01:01:35,349
I know that I am putting that regulated energy out into the world and every nervous system
that is in the vicinity of my system feels that.
829
01:01:35,789 --> 01:01:38,410
And I think that creates this ripple effect.
830
01:01:38,410 --> 01:01:52,064
So for me, if I can regulate here, and I say this, I said it sort of jokingly a few years
ago, but now I say it really honestly, we change the world one nervous system at a time.
831
01:01:52,382 --> 01:02:00,950
I can change this nervous system and then I can offer you a different experience and your
nervous system changes and then it ripples out in that way.
832
01:02:00,950 --> 01:02:10,679
And that at the moment is the only way I can think to keep hope alive for myself in this
crazy world that we're living in.
833
01:02:10,679 --> 01:02:16,984
To know the power of ventral to offer safety to others.
834
01:02:18,611 --> 01:02:19,672
Yeah, no, that's beautiful.
835
01:02:19,672 --> 01:02:22,034
I love the way you're describing that.
836
01:02:22,034 --> 01:02:29,941
you know, I loved your advocacy today for a more loving relationship with our nervous
system.
837
01:02:29,941 --> 01:02:39,450
And I can't think of a more direct conversation around my passion around stress and how
humans work and our human nature than looking at the backbone of our nervous system.
838
01:02:39,450 --> 01:02:41,547
And you've done such a
839
01:02:41,547 --> 01:02:47,627
kind and beautiful job today helping me feel closer to how I work.
840
01:02:47,627 --> 01:02:56,530
I know that there's a long road ahead of us for making the world more ventral, as you say,
or more regulated.
841
01:02:56,637 --> 01:03:00,892
So I appreciate you so much for coming on the show today.
842
01:03:01,413 --> 01:03:11,997
Let me ask you, tell me a little bit about how people can find you or how they can connect
with Polyvagal Theory and what's on your horizon because I know people are gonna love this
843
01:03:11,997 --> 01:03:15,470
conversation and be like, how can I, how can I, where can I?
844
01:03:15,470 --> 01:03:25,558
Well, I'm, you know, it's interesting because I'm sort of thinking about what I want, what
I want to do next.
845
01:03:25,559 --> 01:03:26,029
Right.
846
01:03:26,029 --> 01:03:29,582
It's an interesting time of life for me.
847
01:03:29,582 --> 01:03:36,087
I'm 71 and trying to figure out what do I want to do with the years I have left.
848
01:03:36,087 --> 01:03:40,210
I just published the Nervous System workbook.
849
01:03:40,290 --> 01:03:54,068
which I really like and I'm talking with Sounds True about creating some sort of a, I
don't know, program to help people go through it with me so that we can do it together.
850
01:03:54,068 --> 01:03:57,079
Because this is about, you know, doing things together.
851
01:03:57,079 --> 01:03:59,010
So that's exciting to me.
852
01:03:59,010 --> 01:04:07,415
I have the Glimmers Journal because Glimmers are, you know, a favorite of mine is coming
out in March and I want to do something with that.
853
01:04:07,415 --> 01:04:09,422
you know, I've got some.
854
01:04:09,422 --> 01:04:10,272
projects going.
855
01:04:10,272 --> 01:04:23,148
If you come to rhythmofregulation.com, that's my website, and we try to have lots of
resources, free things, listings of what's coming up.
856
01:04:23,148 --> 01:04:33,973
yeah, it's interesting, isn't it, to be in a place in life when you think, I have an
opportunity to do something and I don't know what it is I want to do.
857
01:04:33,973 --> 01:04:34,953
I feel very lucky.
858
01:04:34,953 --> 01:04:36,894
I'm in a place in my life where I...
859
01:04:36,952 --> 01:04:40,590
You know, I can say no to things, I can say yes to things, I can really choose.
860
01:04:40,590 --> 01:04:43,966
And with that feels a lot of responsibility, right?
861
01:04:43,966 --> 01:04:45,780
my goodness, what should I choose?
862
01:04:45,780 --> 01:04:46,842
What do I want to choose?
863
01:04:46,842 --> 01:04:48,725
So I'm sitting with that.
864
01:04:49,418 --> 01:04:50,379
Yeah.
865
01:04:50,379 --> 01:04:51,570
Well, blessings on that.
866
01:04:51,570 --> 01:04:55,605
And it's exciting to know you got more publications coming forward.
867
01:04:56,306 --> 01:04:58,269
And thank you for choosing this podcast today.
868
01:04:58,269 --> 01:04:59,576
It's been great to have you on the show.
869
01:04:59,576 --> 01:05:00,490
lovely.
870
01:05:00,490 --> 01:05:01,713
Thank you.
871
01:05:04,679 --> 01:05:06,263
Awesome, so we'll pause.