What does 2025 have in store for you?

Have you thought about what you want to achieve or what

direction he wants to take?

You, and I know that new year's resolutions don't often survive the

first week, but if you want to improve your work life so that you feel

energized rather than drained, you might have some goals for the year.

This week, I'm speaking to Dr.

Kim Daybell.

a GP and former Paralympian who's represented the UK in London and Rio.

While he was training speed.

Solta he was also training as an athlete and performing at the highest level and

on the world stage, I don't know about you, but that sounds exhausting to me.

Now Kim was born with no fingers on his right hand.

A tow transplant gets him some dexterity, but of course working with

the doctor does present its challenges.

If you'd like to know how Kim is navigating a medical career with a

disability, we've got a bonus video that you can find on our YouTube channel.

And while you're there, you can check out all our other video

podcast, episodes, playlists and shorts that are there.

Just follow the link in the show notes.

But in this podcast episode, we're talking about the quality of time

that you put into something, not just the quantity and why it's so

important for you to find work, which you enjoy because let's face it.

We spend enough time doing it.

If you're in a high stress, high stakes, still blank medicine, and you're feeling

stressed or overwhelmed, burning out or getting out are not your only options.

I'm Dr.

Rachel Morris, and welcome to You Are Not a Frog

Hi, I'm Dr.

Kim Daybell, former GB Paralympian, having competed in London and

Rio, and former world number five.

Uh, I'm now a resident doctor working at the Royal London

Hospital, aiming to pursue a career in sports and exercise medicine.

It's great to have you on.

I think there's lots of different things that we could talk about

that I think be very useful for me and for our listeners.

Firstly, can you just give us like a brief, brief pod history of like

your Olympic career and well, and your life and how, how you, how you

came to be where you are now, really?

It's funny now kind of talking about it in, in past tense because

I'm, I've retired about three years, two, three years ago.

And obviously it's been my whole life and it's kind of quite recent, but I,

I started playing table tennis when I was sort of eight or nine years old.

I had a, had parents who were really kind of keen for

me to play lots of sports.

So, um, played all the racket sports when, when I was younger, badminton

table, tennis, tennis, um, and table tennis was kind of the one,

one that came out on top really.

Um, and I started, started competing for, for England in, in an able bodied

set up when I was around nine or 10.

Um, and then that kind of just, just continued through really till

I was 15, 16 and then, and then chose to, to move into the sort

of the Paralympic side of things.

I was approached by, by GB Paralympics with, after we got

the bid for, for London 2012.

Um, and I was kind of at that point weighing up my options

with, with studies and, and university and, and, uh, thinking

about going to medical school.

And did you do your medical training whilst you were playing or did you,

did you wait till you had finished?

So I, yeah, I was, I started medical school when I was 19, um, and then I

was just building up to London 2012.

So really like, kind of my career was just taken off really

from a sports point of view.

Um, I was quite fortunate I think in that I, when, when I started

medical school, I was already part of that sort of GB setup.

And I think what you find a lot of the time is, is medical students

coming in who, 'cause you do have a lot of medical students actually

who play sport to a high level or do something to quite a high level, um,

given the kind of personalities I think that often enter into medicine.

But luckily for me, 'cause I was already quite a big part of that

setup, um, they, they were amazing and, and they worked with me to

kind of balance those two things, um, obviously they're both sort of

full-time undertaking, so making 'em work together was really, really tricky.

But, um, yeah, I did it all, all together and, and then when I graduated

and I was working as a, as an F1 and F2, I worked part-time to try and fit

my training in around that as well.

So did you do your medical training full-time then as well

as being a full-time athlete?

Um, I did, I, I I took years off.

Um, so I intercalated one year, which allowed quite a

lot more time for practice.

Um, and then I took a whole year off sort of in between third

and fourth year I think, and that was the year before Rio.

So I, I knew that I had to be full-time then to qualify 'cause the qualifying

criteria are, are quite tough.

Um, and I wanted to give myself the best chance kind of possible going in.

It's amazing how you did that, really, because medical school is tough.

You know, being Olympic athlete is tough.

Um, and balancing, balancing all that, you know, I've struggled just

to do my, in those days, people called junior doctors, my, you know, my

JHO years, my SHO years, and I can't imagine even us working, even if I

was working less than full time, I can't imagine being able to balance

the, the rigors of training with that.

It was, It was, it tough or did you get a good system of how to do that?

Um, yeah, I mean, well in retrospect now when people kind of ask me that, I

answer that question kind of a lot and, um, sometimes I, I struggle to kind

of remember how, how I made it work.

And I think you, you do have sort of rose tinted glasses

when you look back at it.

Um, and it was really, really hard.

I think the first, I remember the first couple of years in medical school

especially being really tough because I was just the national center of moved

to Sheffield when I was quite young.

I was 14, 13, 14.

Um, so sort of training was on my doorstep.

Obviously.

I was living at home and, and everything was focused on, on practice.

And then when I went to medical school, I was in Leeds.

So, and then you're kind of, you're out into the big, big,

bad world on your own, I suppose.

Um, and then, and trying to find my way was, was quite difficult.

I remember those first few years feeling kind of really burnt

out, really tired all the time.

Um, and it took a while to kind of settle into the, the

things you needed to do to make, make that kind of thing work.

And I kind of, I, I feel like I learned a lot across, along the way of, of how

to balance those two things together.

And it, it, it ended up kind of working really, really well, but

mainly it was about building a team around me that, that could help

support me get through that process.

I think.

You kind of think you have to go through and do it all on your own.

Um, and if, when you try to do that, which is probably what

I've tried to do in the first few years, it can, it feels impossible.

It feels like a really difficult task, but picked up a lot of

skills kind of along the way, I suppose, to, to make it work.

And, and, and yeah, it worked really well in the end, but it was

a, it was tough, a lot, a lot of very hard work, early mornings,

sort of late nights and things.

Um, but luckily for me it kind of panned out all right.

What was the secret then?

Um, I think, like I said before, I think building a team was the, the biggest

thing I think I remember coming in at the end of second year, so that was

just after London and we were kind of just ramping up again for Rio, for the

Rio cycle and kind of sitting down with my coaches and just saying, you know,

I'm not sure that I can do this again.

Like it was a, you know, it was a really amazing experience playing London,

but it was a, it was a really tough kind of four years get, getting there.

Um, and.

We, we sat down and we kind of tried to figure out what we could do and, and in

the end what happened was the, I think it was the, the head of my year or, or

the dean of the, or maybe even the dean of the medical school, that we ended

up having a meeting together, um, and planning how, what my year was gonna

look like, because I think that's what I struggled with the most was it just

felt, it felt relentless, you know?

'Cause even, you know, normally at medical school you have some time

off at Christmas and you get a bit holiday and you can unwind and relax.

And obviously during those times, I was going back to Sheffield to

train kind of full time again.

And we kind of worked out and broke everything down into blocks so that it

felt a bit more kind of digestible and picked out points in the year when I

would need to be studying more or points in the year where I could train a bit

more, um, and then plan out all the tournaments and all of those things.

So with, with that, that kind of careful planning, that, that

definitely, definitely helped.

And yeah, building that team of support.

So, you know, friends, family, coaches, physios, everyone kind of involved.

I've got a lot of people to, to kind of, to thank for, for, for making

it all work because I think allowing them to take some of the burden off

you so that you can just focus on the things that you need to do, uh,

makes a, makes a huge difference.

And, and that prioritization of time, I think that was, that was the main thing.

'Cause normally in the, yeah, in the first couple of years, I would just try

and go sort of full pelt everything, studies, training, the whole year.

Um, and by the end of it I was ruined.

So, um, I think knowing as well when to like, take holidays and,

and all of that kind of stuff.

Yeah.

I, I think, you know, doctors and people in healthcare,

they can work really hard.

They can, you know, we can, we can all do that.

The problem comes when we know we need that team of support and help,

but we don't know where to access it, or we don't think we should.

We don't think we're valuable enough to, to access that, that.

And I guess being an Olympic athlete, you know, you're like, well, we've got

this, we've got this mission, and it's sort of easier, easier to ask for help.

But when you said you had a good team of support, what did they actually do?

I mean, particular, I mean, if it's, you're talking to sort of friends

and family, they were there just as, as kind of support and, and kind of

to help me kind of unwind and listen to all my woes and my difficulties

sort of with training and, and trying to make every, everything balanced.

'Cause I mean, sport in itself is, is a really tough career.

And, and same with medicine.

It's very, very up and down.

You have a lot of setbacks.

And I think, you know, I, I fed, when Federa retired, he did a talk

at Harvard, I think, and he, he was talking about this famous quote where

he only won sort of if you break down his matches, he only won 50%

of the points that he ever played.

And obviously he was the greatest tennis, one of the greatest

tennis players to ever live.

So, um, I think that kind of message has always resonated, uh, with me as well.

'Cause as, as an athlete, you, you kind of, you learn to,

you learn what it is to fail.

And actually most of the tournaments, you know, 95 tournaments I've ever

entered, I've not won, um, despite being kind of at, at that top level.

Um, and that puts a lot of strain on you.

And I think, you know, you need to share that with your support

network and your friends and family and, and basically just talk about

things and communicate, uh, well with people and not kind of, kind of

bottle all, all of that up inside.

And I think having them there just to chat and support was, was a big thing.

Um, and then just from a sort of a practical point of view, I think the,

the medical school and the coaches, um, worked together to plan my time

so that it wasn't unmanageable.

And what we kind of realize is, what it comes down to is when if

you wanna do something well, it needs to be quality over quantity.

Obviously you need to get the hours in.

Um, but what you do needs to be high quality when you are very time poor

like, like I was then when I was training, it needed to be sort of,

yeah, top level training when I was studying it needed to be top level.

There wasn't time for just kind of floating along and, and wasting weeks

and months, um, and doing things slowly.

So they helped me from that point of view just, just plan things

and make sure that everything I did was, was focused and directed.

Um, and I think that that's kind of, that's what what really helped me.

So it's like, do fewer things, but But do them better.

Exactly.

Yeah, because I think I, I was kind of getting into this, this phase of feeling

like I wasn't achieving in either.

I felt like I was kind of not mediocre because obviously I was still playing

for, for England at that time, but for what I was wanting to get, get

out of it, I didn't feel like I was doing the best, the best that I could.

And it was just about working out, right.

How can.

How can we change that from being pretty good at both these things

to sort of excelling in, in both.

Um, and I think we found that balance judging from like the results and what

happened over those sort of four years.

Um, so when you are talking about quality over quantity, you'd probably

go for the, the best coaches for a smaller amount of time, rather than

some fairly mediocre coaches for just doing loads and loads and loads.

How would you apply that principle to, to everything you do in life?

How do you apply that principle now?

I think that's really tough.

'Cause I think, like you said, in sport it's obvious, you know, if, when

you're doing things right, you, you're winning basically, and you're getting

good results and, and you can see that.

That, that everything's kind of going well.

And I think with, with medicine, I think that's why it can be so tough

as, as a medic, because I think you, you get a lot of, a lot of people who

come into medicine who are probably quite high achieving and they've always

done really, really well through school and, you know, they've excelled in

music and sport and blah, blah, blah.

Um, and they're used to being kind of a, the top dog basically,

and a, and a big fish I suppose.

And then you come to medical school and you're all put together and suddenly

you don't feel so special anymore.

And, and it's, and it's quite tough.

And then you start work and you really don't feel special anymore 'cause

you're just kind of a, an F1, I suppose, sort of running round on the wards,

feel like you don't know anything.

And I think what, what I tried to do, I suppose with, with medicine

is take the, take the small, the small kind of wins and really

kind of come away from comparison.

I think that was one of the main things that that, that helped me

is just thinking about yourself.

Obviously with, with sport, it's very different.

You are directly comparing yourself against the other athletes and are you

better than them or, or are you not?

Whereas with medicine, I think it's very difficult.

I mean, it's across, you know, lots of different fields.

People have lots of, lots of different strengths and once you stop comparing

yourself to other, other sort of doctors and other people around you in your

field and just focus purely on what is it that I stand for as a doctor, or what

do I think that a good day looks like?

Um, and also taking the time to be grateful and, and to, to thank yourself

is, is what I, it's what helped with me.

'cause quite a lot of the time, I think with, with medicine

that feedback is quite internal.

Um, I know we have a whole, you know, the whole theory about reflective

practice and, and we're taught to reflect and, but I think the reality

of a busy sort of working world and, and medical world is that that

feedback often, uh, what I found, particularly from kind of my seniors,

was that it was always really positive.

You know, everyone was always really nice, they said, oh,

you're, you know, you're a good doctor, you're a nice person.

We, we get on with you well, but didn't feel kind of that, that genuine.

Um, and I think I was lucky 'cause I'd had that experience of refre

reflection and feedback from sport where obviously you are really

under a microscope and you are taking criticism every single day.

And, you know, you, you get used to taking that on and,

and kind of using that.

Um, whereas with medicine, you've kind of gotta do it yourself.

And, and actually I do buy into that whole reflective fee, but you've just

gotta put a lot, a lot more effort into it and not just see it as.

Something that the portfolio tells you, you have to write 10 of or

whatever it's to, to pass your, your kind of exams and things.

And, and judge it by that because it, it is, it's hard 'cause you don't

see a lot of tangible outcomes apart from some of the, the, the exams.

So it was more about reflecting on, on myself and how I felt about myself

as a doctor and, and whether that was a positive feeling or a negative

feeling that day or that month or, um, and then trying to build on

it week on week and year on year.

Where do you think doctors get it wrong when it comes to sort

of developing them themselves?

I'm just thinking of like various conferences.

If you've got a set amount of days that you can go and do study

leave or, or study or whatever.

And I think a lot, a lot of doctors focus on, I've just gotta get the

clinical knowledge right, I've gotta learn this, learn that, but

perhaps don't, don't look at other bits of themselves that would,

that that would be important.

And I guess with, with sport, I, I'm guessing here that the

psychology is quite important.

Um, did you have a psychologist?

Yeah, definitely.

I mean, psychology was a big, there was a guy, um, a couple of

psychologists I had through my career and, and that made some of the biggest

differences in my, in my career and kind of moved me from a sort of a

top 10 player, maybe to a top five player for a while, um, in the world.

And, and that psychology behind how to perform was a massive thing,

which I still sort of take into, um, medicine now, whether it's like exams

or particularly stressful situations.

And I always get a lot of feedback, say, I'm always seem quite calm at

work and even in like difficult, difficult situations, busy situations

always seem quite calm and able to take on kind of all that information

and all the things I need to do, uh, and take it in your stride and,

and kind of applying some of the.

I mean, we worked a lot on mindfulness when I was.

Play in, which I think is a very broad topic and can be used really well,

can be used kind of really poorly.

But, um, it's kind of that living in the moment.

And he, he used to kind of put it down so you can only sort of

think, have sort of five things in your head at any one time.

And when I was playing, if, if you were wasting some of those slots with

thought, you know, negative thoughts, like I dunno what, what if I lose or

what am I gonna have for dinner tonight?

Or whatever, whatever it is, um, then you are, you are not using that

headspace to, to kind of, to perform basically and to do the actual

actions that, that you need to do.

Um, and I've managed to kind of take that into medicine and, and

try and use that to break down.

'Cause what, what can be overwhelming I think when, especially

when you're a young doctor.

Just all the things that you need to do seems very overwhelming, whether that's

just your clinical responsibilities on top of your exams, on top of trying to

get a job somewhere on all those things.

And actually you just need to break it down into small goals and, and

things that are in front of you and what you can actually do and what

you can actually change and not worry about the things that you can't,

if that, if, if that makes sense.

Um, I think it's a lot easier in sport in a, in a lot of ways.

And, and I think in, in medicine it's, it's a completely different challenge.

I, I do kind of feel like, like you, like you were just saying about kind

of thinking about all the things you need to learn and the clinical stuff

especially, um, what I'm kind of learning is that that clinical stuff

will probably take care of itself.

Um, and as you progress through, you will learn those things.

And as you do your exams and as you choose what specialty you're gonna

do, you will learn those things.

And actually, that's probably the least that you need to worry about.

And actually, what, what I've found is from working with, obviously

yeah, in the medical field for 6, 5, 6 years now, is that people.

Get so focused on what they need to know to be a doctor that they

forget, you know, the things that they enjoy and, and they, they don't

pursue, you know, they lose some of those hobbies or they don't pursue

the things that they really love.

And then that's where that resentment builds up towards medicine, I think.

Um, you know, you hear a lot of, a lot of young doctors especially just quite

frustrated and, and burnt out and, and, and it's probably because they've had

to, or they felt like they've had to sacrifice and forego some of the things

that they really love and, and that medicine doesn't allow space for that.

And I'm not saying it's easy to do because it's not, um, but there is space

for it if you are willing to go for it and, and ask for that help and make

space, I suppose, for it in your life.

Um, and I try to encourage people to, to do that wherever they can.

Yeah, I certainly remember as a, a junior doctor feeling

like, yeah, I didn't have any time for any hobbies, anything.

I just about managed to make it to the gym, you know, once

a week to a bit of exercise.

But apart from that, I, I was so tired.

So how, how do you do it?

Um, I think you have to hold yourself accountable.

And I think that there's no getting round that it is hard.

You know, there's no easy way to do it.

And I'm not gonna sit here and say, you know, actually, you

know, I made it work and it was dead easy and I never felt tired.

And I did, I felt tired a lot of the time.

But, by breaking it down into smaller chunks, so I, I used

to break things down into sort of maybe like one month blocks.

Um, and if I felt like one day, oh, I don't want to do this assignment

today, or I don't want to go to the gym today, it would allow a bit of

space to make that decision sometimes and say, actually I am too tired

and I'm gonna relax, you know, I'm gonna watch TV and I'm gonna unwind.

And, and kind of, that's also important in terms of performing.

'Cause you need to be rested and you need to, you know, not

feel really tired all the time.

But it was knowing that, okay, but in this period I need to

have this done by this time.

And there's no, that's a non-negotiable.

So I would have like non-negotiables in my timetable.

Um, whether that was fitting in 10 training, 10 gym sessions

within the month, or 15 training sessions within the month, you know,

those things had to be completed.

So it just meant that in the times when I was sort of knackered or

really didn't want to do it, but you have to push yourself and,

and you have to go and do it.

Um, and yeah, breaking it down into those more digestible chunks

made it feel a lot easier than just saying, okay, so I've got a year.

By the end of it, I need to be world number 10 and I need to

have excelled in x, y, z exams.

That's just completely unmanageable.

Like, I wouldn't.

That seems like an impossible target.

Um, and actually, yeah, you need to just have those short term, short term goals

so you can have short term wins and, and keep your motivation moving forward.

Yeah, those process goals, they're so much easier to hit, aren't they?

'Cause actually, you, you don't have huge amount of control

of, of your world ranking.

Yeah, because you don't have control over anybody else.

But you do have control over saying.

Uh, you know, so if your goal was, I am gonna be number five in the world by the

end of the year, you may or may not hit it, but if she said, every month I will

go to the gym 10 times, you can do that and then you're more likely to hit that,

that sort of outcome goal, aren't you?

I think what we forget about how important process goals are,

particularly as medics, we focus on the outcome goal, 'cause we're

so used to achieving and we're so used to doing that, we forget

that if you just do these little things along the way, you'll

probably get that gonna get there.

But I'm interested, how did you decide what your non-negotiables

were gonna be versus the things that could just fall by the wayside?

Uh, so that were kind of done with alongside kind of, uh, coaches

and psychologists normally, um, obviously with medicine, your

non-negotiables are always basically passing your exams when you're in

medical school or going to work when you were, when you were working.

Um, whereas with sport, I think it was, it was kind of a bit different.

So we, I, I mean, once I'd started training for London, I mean, I'd been a

player for about 10 years by that point.

So I kind of, I knew what, what made me tick and what I needed to do to perform

and what I needed to do to make, to make sure I was on that, on that top level.

Um, and we basically just make a list.

So it was like, okay, we know that in the buildup to a world championships

you need, you need three months of, you know, really good quality training.

And, and that's like a minimum.

You know, you need this many sessions, we need to work on the, these things.

Um, we need to address, you know, your psychology and all

of that, all that kind of thing.

And we, we'd make a list, um, and then plan it into a week that kind of fitted

everything, everything into that.

Um, and I, I didn't have the, the kind of the luxury for, for most

of the athletes who play full-time, they, you could just kind of do all

of it and some stuff you wouldn't.

It is a bit, you know, it's a bit like, again, being at medical school, like

we all know there were some topics you, you didn't really need to do,

and they, they, they were, they were timetable fillers if we're being honest.

Um, and those are the things that could give, and they were

my negotiables, I suppose.

I didn't necessarily need to attend all of those.

And, and that's where medical school were really good, you know, I think

they recognized that maybe I didn't need to go to those seminars and, but

these ones, you know, you can't pass if you're not, you're not of those.

Um, and working out like that is, is kind of how, how I did it.

And, and yeah, just starting with a list and, and starting with a conversation.

I think that's the most important thing is it was reaching out and

actually saying, I am struggling.

I can't do this on my own.

I need you to help me.

Um, can you help me do that?

And I think that's where it, it kind of, we made it work.

Did they help you prioritize these things then?

Or did you decide what the priorities were or, or was it, I guess the

question is how helpful is it to discuss your priorities with other people?

Do other people truly know?

Um, good question.

I think when it comes to sport, I think my coaches did know, 'cause,

you know, they're, they're kind of top level coaches and they know what

it takes to be a top level player.

I think as I got older, it started to change.

I think as I sort of became more of an adult and my own person, then it was

more me directing what I knew worked for me and what didn't work for me.

Um, but when I was younger it was a bit more, kind of, a bit more

formulaic and being like, you know, these are the things that

we know that, that you need to do.

And, and that relationship kind of changes over time and as, yeah, as

you get older and get a bit more experience, you, you know what, what is

needed for you, but you need that help.

And it was trial and error, you know, it wasn't like we just sat down and

said this is what needs to happen.

And sometimes it worked and sometimes it didn't.

And then we would adjust it a bit and change things and, and it all kind of

came to a head in, in Rio where I, I was world number five going in, I think.

And I got to the quarter finals, which was, which was really good and had

beat the world number two that year.

And it, you know, it was a, it was a really, it was a great year for me.

It kind of, that's where everything sort of came together.

And I think that's where we had got, over the course of four or

five years, we'd finally, in that, those that last year or so got

everything sort of spot on for me to, to perform at, at the best level.

And then those kind of, those two, three years around that

were, were the best of my career.

So it took time and it, it takes, again, it takes trial and effort.

And I think that's what is daunting for people is they, they don't start trying

because they're worried it'll fail.

So they don't even start.

And actually you've just got to be like, we're gonna do it.

Let's, let's just try and do it.

And see what happens, um, and we'll, we'll adjust things and we'll, we'll

change things as we, as we move on, and, and we'll, we'll perfect it over time.

And it, it's not something that's just gonna happen overnight.

And, you know, you wake up with a list and you're like, okay, if I

tick all these things off, then I'll, I'll be the best player in England,

then I'll be, you know, the top person in my medical or whatever,

it's whatever goals you've got.

Um, and yeah, it takes time.

And just, I think the main thing for me was just not being

afraid to fail, I suppose.

And not being afraid to, for things not to go right.

And just every time you lose or every time you fail, it's a lesson learned.

So it's not always a bad thing.

I think was was one of the things I tried to take away from it.

It's easier said than done in sport, isn't it?

Because you know that you will fail like Federer did.

You know 50% of the times you'll always be beaten by

someone eventually, won't you?

But in our jobs, it feels, when we fail, it just feels crushing and it

feels like there's something wrong with us, even though nobody can be

perfect straight away and nobody can be perfect full-time either.

How would you help doctors just get over this fear of failure?

And it is a pathological fear of failure, it, it really is.

I mean, partly because sometimes the stakes are really high

if, if you do fail, but in my experience, we are very, very bad.

Even with just with the little things that don't matter as well.

I completely agree.

I think I've noticed it working like within hospitals and things is

that people are so scared of getting things wrong and, and you know, when

something does go wrong clinically, you often see it like, you know,

the first thing everyone's doing is going back through the notes, trying

to see like, what did I do wrong?

Where, where was my mistake?

And, you know, I hope it wasn't me, that me meant that that happened.

Um, and actually what I used to do is I would go back and I'd

be like, where did I go wrong?

And I, not excited, but I would want to see, I wouldn't, ' cause I think

people go back through and they look through all that 'cause they're wanting

reassurance that it wasn't them.

Actually, first of all, I think we're all just very small cogs in a big wheel.

So often when things go wrong, it's not entirely your fault.

There might have been something you could have done, but generally it's

a, you know, it's an institutional problem or it's the, the team needs

to come together to reflect on what the decisions that were made.

But it's, you know, it's a group thing.

It's not, it's a team effort.

It's not a, a solo mistake.

I mean, I get different specialties obviously within say, GP world, it

can feel a bit different I suppose, 'cause you are sort of working solo

a lot of the time with patients.

But especially within a hospital, it's, it's a team thing.

And I would kind of go back, looking for the mistakes that I might have

made and, and try and go to maybe the consultant and say, do you think that

I could have done this differently?

Not try and cover it up and be like, oh no, pretend that I didn't, I, there's

nothing I could have done, which I think a lot of, a lot of people do try to do.

And I think it's, it's changing that mindset of when you get something

wrong, it being a bad thing.

Because when you get something wrong or you, I mean, if you do something wrong

multiple times, that is a bad thing.

You need to address that.

But, um, if it's the first time you know it, it's fine.

Like you said, we're not perfect and, and we will make mistakes.

And that those mistakes are what you learn from.

You don't always learn from when you've done things really well.

You know, that's you, you just go, okay, that's great.

I did that really well.

But you don't learn anything from that.

But when things go badly, that's where you really learn.

And if you can take that on board and reflect on that, like I was

saying earlier, and don't make that same mistake again or change

the way you practice a little bit, then you've developed that day and

you've learned something that day.

And I think that that's kind of the attitude I tried to take into it.

One of the questions I like to ask is even better if.

What would've been even better if?

'Cause that sort of takes away the, oh, you failed.

Like, what did I do wrong?

It's like, well, what could have been improved here?

No judgment blamed it.

It would've been even better if that maybe I've been a little bit

more patient there, or I'd noticed that result there, or, or, or, or

something like that sort of takes the, the shame and, and judgment,

But that's where sport is, that's where sport really helped me.

'Cause I think that, like, even when I won tournaments, the first thing that we

would do when I came back into training, you know, the next morning or the next

day, it'd be like, well done, that was great, but you did this, this, and this

and this was wrong and that was wrong.

And, and you know, at, at first when you are younger, especially as a younger

athlete, that can feel quite difficult.

'Cause you're like, well, what can, like what, what am I meant to do?

I've just won and I'm still getting criticized.

But actually, you know, you start to realize that it's not, it's not a

criticism on you, they're just trying to help you be even better for next time.

Um, and I think I got used to that process of reflection, um,

feedback and, and taking it on board and not taking it personally.

I think that was like the main thing.

It was like, this is to help me not to put me down.

Um, and that's where I think a lot of young doctors and and older doctors

probably struggle is that criticism side of things and, and that feedback side of

things, people don't really, don't take it well is what I've, what I've learned.

Um, and often as you move through as a, as a, as a young doctor, a lot

of the feedback is all quite generic and, and just all really positive and

like, you know, you're doing great and you read everyone's portfolio and

it says they're all the best doctors ever because basically people just

can't really be bothered, I think, to give negative feedback because it then

means more work, more conversations and like, oh, but like what if this?

And then, 'cause we move on so quickly as well, you know, you move

on after four months with all your rotations, it's a lot easier for

everyone just to go, we were all fine, this was all great, let's all.

And you know, you see it all the time, even when there's really bad

things going on within departments or within teams and it's like,

how is the feedback from this?

Some, I'll come to the end of some jobs that have been terrible and I'll be

like, how's the gen generic feedback what's written down on paper, basically

say that everything was great and it's kind of, yeah, it's a funny thing.

Do you think that's because we're not actually very good at receiving

negative feedback, so then people are very worried about giving it?

Yeah, I think so.

I think it's become like a, a bit of a worry about how someone's gonna

react if you say something bad.

But again, it's, it's changing those words and changing that

kind of, the way we set things up.

It's not bad, you know, feedback isn't bad, feedback's good, and

it's, there's a way of delivering it, I think, as well, which I

think is difficult for sometimes.

Some consultants are, you know, they're, and, and sort of senior

registrars, they're amazing at it.

They're really good at teaching, they're really good at feeding back,

and they, they're the ones that you feel you learn from the most.

The ones who kind of come to you being like, I think you could do this better,

but that it's not in a attacking way, it's in a kind of a really positive way.

'cause they'll say, you know, give you things to work on.

And, and that's where I think people get it right.

But in a busy working world, especially for, for consultants when they're so

busy, like, I completely appreciate that having that time to, to properly

feedback and reflect with their, with their sort of people they're

supervising, it's not always easy.

Um, but I think that juniors are so afraid to, to receive any

form of feedback, they're like, I think it almost makes the seniors

be, oh, well, what's the point?

They're gonna be all right.

You know, they're, I'm sure they'll still be fine.

And doctors, it's not gonna be a problem.

So let's just say it's all good.

But then you just didn't have to intuit about what's going

on with your own behavior.

I think it's very difficult to, uh, assess the way that you are

experienced by somebody else, the impact of you on someone else.

You know, I can guess, but it's much more helpful if someone would say.

And someone said to me recently that the best way to give

feedback is get the other person to give it to themselves first.

And I'm presuming that when you went to get your feedback about your

matches, rather than sitting them down and going, right, let me tell

you what you've done wrong they, did they ask you first to go, right.

What do you think?

Yeah, they would.

And generally like athletes are never happy.

So normally athletes will come into those sessions being like, oh, I

didn't do this and I didn't do that, and this could have been better.

And sometimes you actually need the coach to pull you back and say,

no, you were pretty good still.

Like, don't worry, like things are going well.

But it's a completely different mindset, I think, 'cause you are

pushing, I mean you're pushing so hard at the highest level.

So it, it is kind of, you, you have to kind of be like that.

But yeah, I think most of the time it was, it, especially as the

athletes get more experience, it's them coming in saying, this didn't

feel right, I wanna work on this.

I wanna do this better, um, which is not something that

really happens in medicine.

Like, I can't imagine going into like a Yeah, one of my end of

supervisor meetings really and saying, oh, I thought this was bad and I

thought this could have been better and this could have been better.

It's just, I dunno, it's not really like that.

I.

I think that it should be, and I think it, I think we could all be a lot better

for it and feel a lot better for it.

'Cause I think sometimes as well, when you voice some of those

insecurities or some of those things where you feel you're weak, sometimes

you actually get feedback that they go, well, what do you mean?

I think that's probably, that's probably in your head a little bit.

And, and you've spent all this time worrying about it.

And if you'd have just said it, they might actually come back and

say, well, actually I think you're really good in this clinical area.

Or, I think you've got great communication and you can feel a bit

better about it, which can help, you know, from that point of view as well.

I think that we need to be seeking feedback much more ourselves as well.

It's like, don't wait till the end of your clinical attachment or your

rotation, but constantly saying.

In the moment I think I could have done that interaction better.

What could have been better?

Someone told me recently that if you say to someone, you know, rate

yourself out out of 10, where would you score yourself for that thing?

And they go, well, well probably six.

Okay, why was that?

Tell, tell me about it.

Then they'll come up with the points.

You can go I agree.

Actually, I think probably to get to seven you could have done this

and then it's a learning experience.

But if we're always doing that rather than waiting to an end of attachment

thing, then it becomes a lot quicker.

And I, I'm thinking for, for people that are still doctors in training,

that then makes it much easier for the consultant just to give you

some quick in the moment feedback if you're going, can I just stop there?

Can I have two minutes of your time?

I mean, I dunno if anyone would do this.

I'm not sure I would've done it, but I I'm just wondering, can I

have two minutes of your time?

In, in that, in that ward round there, I felt that, I felt I

probably did a six out 10 because I probably needed to have done this.

Is there anything else that would've got me up to seven or eight?

What do you think?

And that gives them permission to go, actually yeah, this.

And how, how useful would that be, right?

Yeah, I mean, I completely agree and I try to do that when I'm in my practice.

I think, like even when, I dunno, like the other day, for example,

I was working and you kind of, I did something and then I needed

to speak to a specialty registrar about what, whatever to do next.

It's quite complicated.

And you pick up the phone to them and everyone, you know what it's like in

hospitals especially, everyone's so busy and a bit short with you and you just

feel like, oh, I just want to get some advice please, can you help me, please?

Um, and they'll say something and then hang the phone up.

And actually, like, I I, I took a minute to say, well, I was gonna do this.

what do you think?

You know, just for my own learning, what would you do?

And actually, when you propose things, I think to people like that,

'cause you know, you're genuine, you genuinely want to, you know,

they're the, they're the expert.

You genuinely wanna learn from them and.

If you approach it in that way, what I've found is people are always a

lot more willing to, to help you.

Then most people are really nice.

I think we get this kind of, we get this kind of worry that, you know, all

the senior doctors are super scary and they're, they're, you know, they're,

they're terrifying and I don't wanna have to take up too much of their time.

But if you show that you're engaging and you're just wanting to learn as

a, as a young doctor, most of 'em are, are lovely, and they're really

willing to pass on that knowledge and pass on that help to someone

who's genuinely interested, um, and genuinely kind of wants to get better.

So I think if you can, if you can kind of do it in that

way, I think most people are, are really receptive to that.

And you can have a really good conversation and you

can actually learn something.

Um, but it's about how you, how you approach it.

Because most of the time it's almost like you are, I always feel like

in hospital you are like borrowing time off people who don't have it.

Um, and actually they do have a little bit of time and they are willing

to help you, and it's just kind of breaking down those barriers, I suppose.

Yeah, and it's even phrasing it like, thank you, that was really helpful.

Next time, what else should I do to make this quicker and easier for you?

Yeah, exactly.

It comes down to commu, like completely down to, to communication

and that kind of, yeah.

It goes back to what I was saying about how I managed to balance the two, the

two things so well is, is having that, those open lines of communication

with the people that, that I needed to, so that I could get the, the, the

feedback that I needed and, and kind of adjust things for myself to make,

to make it work as well as possible.

Did your psychologist, your sports psychologist, help you

to stop taking that per thing?

So personally, you know, what would they have helped you

with to help you do that?

Because I think that's such a not failure, I don't wanna say

failing it, it's behavior that doesn't work for us in medicine.

What?

We take everything so personally, but you, you can't in sport.

Yeah.

No, I think it, it, yeah, the psychologist definitely helped me.

I think you, you learn a lot just from reflection and kind of, you know, we

would do, we would do a lot of work on kind of not, basically not taking

things personally, um, and just being, having like an acceptance of the

people that are around you are, are telling you these things, but to help

you not, not to hinder you, I suppose.

It takes a lot of time, I think, um, because it isn't easy to, to

be told all the time that you need to do, to do something better, but

it helps you along that journey.

And I think what, what what I did a lot of work on with, with,

with my psychologist was, uh, trying to enjoy the journey.

'Cause I think that as athletes we do become very sort of outcome focused.

It's about whether you win gold or not.

And you'll sit, you'll see, you know, your chapters.

I've had some really interesting conversations with, with other athletes

who have won a, a gold medal, for example, I remember sitting down with

one of, one of the guys who's one of our best players in the world,

uh, Will Bailey, and he has won, you know, multiple world championships,

Paralympics, and you know, he's the top, top guy really in, in our, in our team.

And he, when he Won his first world championships, I remember chatting to

him and he said that he got home and he, he sat down on his sofa with his medal

and he was kind of like, is that it?

He had this like moment of, and it's a big thing for athletes, you know,

once they've achieved that top thing, they suddenly have a bit of a dip

because there's, they've, so they've achieved this thing and they, they

dunno where to go next, essentially.

Um, and they're kind of like, was that, was that it I suppose,

is that everything that I've been, been working towards?

And, and then I think what he realizing that, well I took a lot

from that, was he wanted to enjoy the process of getting there and

trying to move away a little bit from just it being about this end result.

'Cause you can suddenly get somewhere and find, okay, I've got it,

but did I enjoy that whole time?

And I think that's a really poignant point within medicine, 'cause you

talk to lots of people through their medical careers and the general

feedback is always, you know, it'll be better when I've finished my junior

doctor years, it'll be better when I finished my house office years,

it'll be better once I'm a consultant.

And they go through that whole time and then you look back at it or when you go,

did I actually enjoy that whole thing?

I'm not really sure.

And actually that's what I was trying to do within table tennis was make

sure that one, after like a four year cycle, I could look back at the whole

thing and say, win or lose and say, I really enjoyed that and I would do

it all again with the same result.

Um, and I tried to take that into medicine as well so that you're not

always just striving to get the next job or just striving to pass the next exam,

because before you know it, 10, 15 years could have gone by and you, you can feel

like you didn't enjoy any of it, which I think is really sad and a, a real shame.

Because I don't think medicine needs to be like that.

I think it can, it's a really fulfilling career, which can,

which can be really amazing.

It's just.

It's just very tough and, and takes a lot of emotional resilience and, you

have to try and enjoy it along the way because you've chosen to do it.

You know, my, my coach always used to say to me when things were hard and I

was like, I dunno if I want, he'd be like, you are choosing to be here, Kim.

You know, like, no one's making you, you, you can walk out the door any

day you want, you know, and turn your back on it if it's too much.

That is interesting.

Yeah, we, we are choosing to do what we do.

At any point we could stop, and yes, there will be, there

will Be consequences of course, and financial consequences

and all sorts of consequences.

However, nobody has a gun to our head literally saying, do it.

And it strikes me that's where actually being very, very intentional

about planning how you're gonna live, what your week is gonna look

like, what your year is going to look like is, is so, so important.

But we seem to only give ourselves permission to do it when we're in like

a high stakes thing, like a, being a Paralympian, et cetera, et cetera.

We're like, okay, that's really high stakes so I can do it.

But of course, and I'm sure you'd agree, lots of other people have

very busy lives in other ways.

If you have children or you're a carer or you've got all sorts of other things

going on, that needs planning just as much in getting support team around us.

But we think that, oh, that, that's mine, and so I, I shouldn't

really do it, I shouldn't need to.

But for me, planning my weeks and planning my sort of quarters has

been the one thing that, that, that's got me through stuff.

You know, I've got three teenage kids, et cetera.

So, but unless I actually work out, yeah, what are my priorities this week?

What do I want to do in terms of fitness, in terms of seeing my friends?

Otherwise, work would just expand, fill every single little, little tiny slot.

And it's not always, you know, like you said, it's not always about

having some big end goal that.

That you want to achieve?

Like for me, it was, it was, sometimes I say it is actually, it was easy for

me because, you know, I had, I had this end goal to, to, to aim towards

and I had a team of people around me, you know, helping me get there.

And I completely appreciate that.

That's not something that most people have.

And, you know, most people don't have six, seven people working

full-time to help them achieve the goals that they want to achieve.

But again, if you break it down to kind of like the journey rather than

the end result, I think that if it's something that you really enjoy, and

it doesn't have to be something that you do at a high level or anything, but

if it's something you enjoy, it means it's something really important and

you need to carve that time out for it.

And it probably, what you'll see then is a knock on effect to, to

your sort of professional life.

Say within, within medicine you probably find that you're happier at

work and that you actually perform a lot better and you resent it less

'cause it's not taking you away from the thing that you love doing.

And, and I think that, that all of that's really, really important and.

Something that we really struggle with as, as doctors, I think

really, really struggle with.

It's a, it's a major problem, which is probably why doctors are so quite a

lot of the time are, are sort of quite, fed up, I suppose, with, with, with,

off, I think is the

yeah.

Pissed off.

Yeah.

With disillusioned.

Yeah.

unhappy.

We do only have, we do only have one life.

And as one of my podcast guests said, years ago, it was quite a long time

ago, she's like, well, goodness me, you spend so much of your time at work.

Is it not?

I think it's reasonable to think you're gonna at least like

it, even if you don't love it.

So there's something about enjoying the journey.

But there's also something about making most of those snippets

of time that you do have.

I, I have a tennis lesson every week.

I love playing tennis.

I'm not very good at this at all, but, and I have a, but I have a coach.

'cause actually I get so much out that one hour playing with a coach than I

probably would do I out of like two hours playing like back and forth

over the net with some people that, you know, were sort of my standards.

So that I think is looking at sort of quality over quantity.

But the other thing is, the other thing that struck me when

you said about the team that was supporting you, I, I thought you

were gonna say, yeah, I had like a personal driver and this and that.

So actually a lot of it was like just moral support.

Like you can talk things through with them.

And we can all have teams like that behind us even if we

don't have the practical help.

Although, can I just say, I think that a lot of medics, and maybe,

maybe there was a bit of a gender bias here, particularly sort of

mums, we feel for some reason we feel shame for asking for practical help.

I have a cleaner, I get a meal box, you know, because I know that I,

I need that to sort of function.

Um, but lots of people feel.

Really awful that they're asking for this practical help.

But if you don't have time and you would rather spend the precious time

that you do have doing something that's important to you, get help.

Pay for it.

Pay for it.

Because we, you know, I, I know salaries haven't risen that much,

but relatively cash rich, time poor.

No, I completely agree.

I think it, it, it's, again, it's about those sort of non-negotiables

and the things that you need.

So for you it might be, you know, that I need to fit in that tennis

lesson this week because if it, if I don't, then it's gonna have a

knock on effect for my whole week.

I'm gonna be a bit miserable, I'm gonna be mean to my kids.

And you know, it's all gonna be a bit rubbish.

And actually, like you said, if you can okay, where, what can give a

little bit here and there so that I can make sure that I do that.

And it's not, I think again, people see it as like a selfish thing and

that you are, you know, it's something you're doing for yourself and that's

not right because we always have to be giving every bit of ourselves to our

work or our family or whatever it is.

But if it means that you can then give all those things in a more positive way,

and you can do it with all of you and be completely present because you've taken

that, carved out that time for yourself, then it's not a selfish thing anymore.

You know, it's just something that you, you feel like you, you know,

you need to do to perform on, on, on the highest level that you can.

More and more I'm coming to think that it shouldn't Be called self care.

It shouldn't even be called necessary care.

It should be called essential care.

I mean.

As an athlete, you knew you had to take care of yourself and presumably

your team would get quite crossed with you if you hadn't been so like,

well we are putting all this effort.

You've been out partying till three in the morning.

Hang on a sec.

You don't own your body.

We do, 'cause we are training you up to like win the Olympics.

But we don't think like that in medicine.

But you know, frankly, I do not want to be operated on by a surgeon who has not

had any time to rest because they're un ragged with their family because they

haven't got any help in it or whatever.

I want to be operated on by someone who has taken the time to be as mentally

and physically fit as they can.

Absolutely.

Um, and I think part of the problem as an institutional thing, one of,

like, one of the things I really, I really struggle with as a doctor is

it's not the work actually that you do.

Like, I love the work.

Like I actually really like being at work, and it's all the stuff that

comes alongside that you have to do in your spare time and basic things, you

know, from your pay not being right and having to like ring MR, HMRC every,

every month to kind of adjust things or, you know, the rot are not being

worked out properly or whatever it is.

Kind of just all that extra stuff and all those extra everything you

have to kind of fill in that kind of detracts from the work itself is, I

think is, is is a real, real shame.

'Cause they're, they're kind of all just distractors and, and I appreciate,

you know, every, within every field.

There is that stuff and all that red tape and just things you have to do.

But I think within medicine it is particularly prominent if you, if

you like, which is a shame because it, yeah, it takes doctors away from

what they really are good at and what they really love doing, which is

sort of treating patients hopefully.

Yeah.

Her hertzberg, they called them the, um, the hygiene factors at work.

You know, like the admin, you know, the facilities, can you park your car?

All the, all these sorts of things that just detract from actually making

the job as as good as it can be.

But if you were to, you know, everything you've learned, you know, through

your career, if you were to summarize that in three top tips for sort of

how to have a sustainable career and, you know, perform to your best

going forward, what would they be?

Um, three top tips.

I think that prioritization would be kind of my number one.

I think knowing which areas of your life you need to push in, in

certain times is the key thing.

I think that, and that's the, the kind of the whole secret really is that

prioritization and time management, uh, skills if you want to succeed in,

in lots of different areas, whether that's in sport or at home or in

music or medicine or wherever it is.

It's, it is just knowing when something needs a bit more

of your time and attention.

Um, that would be kind of my number one.

I mean, my number two would be sort of quality over quantity, which is kind

of what we've, what we've said before.

I think that doing something well for a short period of time is a

lot better than doing something poorly for a long period of time.

It's not necessarily the hours you put into things, but it's about

the quality hours that you put in.

My coach always used to say, sort of, practice makes permanent

rather than practice makes perfect.

So it's kind of, whatever you practice doing is however, what,

what you will then go out and do.

So if you practice things at a good level and at a high level, you'll

go out and do it at a high level.

And the final thing I think is just enjoyment.

I think you've got to enjoy whatever you do.

And, and if you are not, that's where you've gotta maybe sit down

and have a think about if there's something you need to change or

something, you need to adjust.

Because the whole point of all this is that we, we want to be here and

we want to, we want to enjoy it.

And you need to enjoy that journey.

So if you don't, you're not gonna be able to, to kind of, to maintain and

sustain it for any prolonged period.

So yeah, they're the kind of the top three.

I love those.

'cause yeah, there is a difference between not enjoying your work

because, you know, because of all those irritating factors that, that

come in and a difference between, actually I don't actually like

what, what the core of my work is.

If you don't like that, then find something that you do like.

Absolutely.

Um, and practice makes permanent.

I'm gonna, I'm gonna take that.

I love that.

Yeah, that's a, that's a good one.

I always remember that one.

It really is.

Kim, thank you so much for being with us.

If people wanna get a hold of you, how would they contact you?

Yeah, that's fine.

Uh, you can get me on my email address, kim.daybell1@nhs.net, uh, or uh,

Instagram as well, uh, kim.daybell.

So yeah, I normally reply to kind of messages if people

just have any questions.

Thanks for listening.

Don't forget, you can get extra bonus episodes and audio courses along with

unlimited access to our library of videos and CPD workbooks by joining

FrogXtra and FrogXtra Gold, our memberships to help busy professionals

like you beat burnout and work happier.

Find out more at youarenotafrog.com/members.