Welcome to Podcasting Tech, a podcast that equips busy

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I'm Mathew Passy, your host and a 15 year veteran in the podcasting

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us on this exciting journey to unlock the full potential of your

podcast. It is not often that I get to

interview somebody on this show who I'm actually a little bit

of a fan and having a little bit of a moment of nervousness.

Today, we are chatting with Lindsay Graham. And as he said in his bio no.

Not that Lindsey Graham. He's a podcast creator, producer,

and a host of a bunch of very good podcasts. And the

one that I know him best for most notably is American scandal from Wondery.

If you have not checked it out, I implore you to do so. It is

fantastic, and he does a great job. And he is also the founder

of Thrum, and that is a company that is providing

really interesting audio services to help podcasters, and we'll talk about all those

things and many, many more. Lindsay, thank you so much for joining us here on

the show today. Yeah. Thanks for having me. Oh, it is such a

joy to meet you, and I was I was so glad we got to meet

in person over at podcast movement last month. Yeah. That was

fun. So let's start right away with Throm because that's the the big exciting

thing that I was first drawn to you. I mean, I had known of you

from listening to the show, but then I think I saw on pod news that

you were launching this service, and I saw you were attached to it. So I

got really excited. Tell me, what does Throm do, and and how did it

get started? Sure. So Throm, at its most

basic, is a music library for podcasts

and other similar endeavors. It's,

it's music for storytellers for you know, really. And, it

springs from my own experience, making these narrative

history, you know, shows that I do. Way back when we

started the the first one, American History Tellers, and then soon after

American Scandal, I mean, I guess the reason I I got

into podcast was because I was familiar with audio through music,

and I had this little studio, you know, in my backyard that I'm talking to

you from. And, and so, I composed all the

music for those shows, way back when

because, really finding finding music that fit,

you know, exactly what I was looking for fit for my purpose was really,

really difficult, given the production music libraries

that are are out there. That's not saying that that the music is bad.

In fact, a lot of it is really good, but it's built for a different

purpose. If you are doing short form

video, you've got, you know, the the world's your oyster

because all of that music is built for that.

It is not built for a 45 minute cinematically scored,

narrative driven storytelling experience in which is, you know,

what's really an underscore that that, that

is, what I'm looking for. And, so I I

had to compose it myself. And, as I became

busier and busier being a podcaster, I just couldn't

continue being a composer as well.

So, I began to think, carefully

about how we can reuse musical

elements, how they can be composed to a certain purpose from the very

beginning so that they're the most adaptable, they're the most

useful, they're the most editable, they're the fastest things, you know, piece

of equipment I, you know, I can have in the studio, and still

achieve the goals of of bringing emotion, and storytelling

chops to or or utility to to the

story. So over, I don't know, a couple

of years, I kind of developed this system of always

composing in the same key, of always composing in the same

tempo, of always kind of fitting things

into certain types of cues because I found myself looking for something

like, well, I need something that's kind of actiony right now, or I need something

that's kind of suspensey right now, or I need to resolve that suspense right

now, or I need something neutral just that's underneath

as I, you know, exposit or just talk about facts.

And so this system was built, that everything's in the same

key, everything's in the same tempo, and everything's organized by narrative

function, not musical genre or something like

that. And having done that work, I hired a

composer and, thought, you know, maybe other

podcasters would would enjoy this too.

So if I'm a first time podcaster or or first time

narrative podcast producer, what is the experience

like when I go to thrum versus, like you said, the

EVVY of excellent royalty free music libraries out there

for, you know, more generic intro, outro music? Like, what what is it that I'm

gonna be doing to get the best content from the platform?

Well, we organize everything by album. You know, we kind of still think,

thematically and musically. So, in in

inside every every album is a collection of 80 to a

120 different tracks that are all thematically or aesthetically

grouped. So, if you were trying to

investigate, thrum, I would I would audition a few

albums and find one that's, like, in your ballpark. We try to name them

evocatively to get you to get you there, like, quirky in the

dark is a pretty clear one. That that's, you know, it it might be a

a kind of a madcap true crime sort of adventure if you're

especially if you're into, oh, I don't know, Murders in the Building.

You know, there this is the album for you. Right?

And, so if you do find an aesthetic then, what

you'll what you'll discover is that album is very rich,

with, every track, has

a, a regular mix, an alternate mix, a reduced mix to

kind of spark you know, clean it up and make it even more sparse, but

they're all the same. They're like variations on motifs. And then

they're all organized by these these narrative functions so

that when you get to that moment where you need to switch moods, you could

stay within the same album and just find the different function.

But because everything's in the same key and same tempo, you don't need to stay

in the same album. Any any track across the 5,000 in the

library, are are harmonically and rhythmically

compatible. Excellent. Well, we encourage everyone to check that out at

thrum. That's thrum.audio, and, of course, we'll have a

link to it so you could see right there. I'm curious. You said you started

as a musician, and if you're not watching the video, I implore you to go

check it out and see some of the guitars that we have on the back

wall behind Lindsay, including a portrait of George, Washington there.

How did you discover that, you know, going

from music production to narrative storytelling, like, how

did you know that your skills

translated or or what was it that made you say, I can compose

music for storytelling versus just, you know, writing songs?

Well, there I guess there are 2 questions there. You know? The first one is

I never expected to be on this side of the mic. I never expected to

be a voice over talent. You know, music and audio

production, was always just a a hobby while I went

to my 9 to 5, you know, job in marketing.

A great accident happened, in about 2014,

2015 in which I was fired from one of those jobs. And,

and, I decided to try my hand at making something

I love, also my career.

I don't recommend this route for many people, but it

worked out for me. I I started as a, an audiobook

company that turned into kind of a podcast company that eventually

I left. But one of those shows got the attention of Wondery, and then

my career just took off from there. But how did I know

the second question is how did I know, that I could compose

for storytelling? I think I

think I was doing that anyways. If you're a musician,

or a a producer, bands are super super

fun, and, I enjoy that a great

deal. But you're also looking to to just find your next job.

And a lot of that is in media production. You know, bands are by almost

definition broke, and so they're not paying you much.

But TV and film or documentaries or

short short films, that's that's interesting and it's

a it's a it's a job. So, I've been doing

I had been doing composing for commercial and,

and for image, for video for for a while,

and and kind of knew how how it worked. So it wasn't

too far a stretch really to to then say, okay, well, I've scored

a a 10 minute industrial video. I can probably score

a 45 minute history documentary.

With 45 minute history documentary, for someone

who's never done this type of work, you know, lots of podcasters are

seeing the prospects of narrative podcasting, where they can go with

it, how much fun they can have with it. It's definitely a growing field and

certainly shows that are committing that kind

of work and dedication and production to it,

you know, are getting pretty good response out there in the podcasting space, whereas

some of the more basic interview shows are not

quite breaching, you know, through the noise that's out there.

But how do you know where to

put music or maybe even more importantly,

where not to put music? Because I think there's often a urge

to fill the entire thing with music,

but I think that would honestly kind of be, you know, it

would almost be detrimental to the project. Well, that's interesting

because you know me from American Scandal, which has wall to wall music

in it. There's not a point in which there's not music.

But that does that does differ

from American History Tellers, which is, kind of a a drier,

more narration forward format.

I think I think you can go either way.

There is going to be a balance, or an aesthetic that you

find, a a style. And,

for history tellers, I'll I'll I'll focus on that because that's the one that that

that has music in moderation.

It is really, useful as punctuation.

If you think of your your entire episode as

maybe a a a a one paragraph short story

in which there's a beginning, a middle, and an end, and things

happen, and and you need to punctuate those

sentences, that's probably where the music

goes. Is it an exclamation point? Is it a question mark? Is

it, you know, a colon or a semicolon, or is it a, you

know, a section break indicating a big pause?

Music does this, really well to

indicate the starts and ends of things.

We know something's coming up or we know that something's ending even

if it's even if it's inconclusive. If I

if I, tell you something,

that is that has incomplete information,

you may be, as a listener, left wondering, well, well, you didn't

tell me everything. What's what's going on here? But if I put

a a sting underneath it or or a bit of a rise,

of underscore and that falls away,

that's much more purposeful. I have told you through the music

that I know that you know or you don't have all the

information, and I will probably get to it later.

There's all sorts of ways to manipulate, your story using

music, but if it's interspersed, it's

mostly and probably primarily as punctuation and signposting

to to the audience. This is what's happening now, and I'm

on I'm in control of it. That's

interesting. You know, I'm you say this, and I'm gonna have to

go back and relisten. I don't think I realized there's music throughout all of American

scandal. I really thought that you know, I've always heard the

music as a place for transition, right, or a

place to, you know, accentuate a point or more

importantly, a place to give the listener a

chance to really absorb what you just said. Right? You said something really

important. Here's a little of the music so that you really have to think about

it now. Right? You're not just waiting for the next thing to be said or

moving out to the next thought, but, I I mean, I guess that means the

music is so effective that I don't even realize it's going on the entire time.

Well, you've pointed out the the functional music, you know, the stuff that

that is there to be listened to, that the the ins and outs, the beginnings

and the ends, the conspicuous pauses.

Probably what you're not hearing, at least consciously,

is all the, manipulative music,

the tonal stuff. Now American Scandal has a lot of

very drony, dark music underneath it. It

doesn't it's not doing a lot, you know, rhythmically or harmonically or

melonically. It's just there as a as a vapor in the

room. And, but it's setting a

mood, and I I would I would be very interested for you to

listen to your next American Scandal episode, you know,

critically. And then and let me know what you think the

music is doing, because it should be

changing tensions, shifting moods,

making you feel tense or relaxed.

It I mean, it is there to manipulate you. I I

can probably say with 95% certainty, I've

never listened feeling relaxed. I'm always feeling

tense or anger or something at the

the amount of atrocities that have been committed in

history and frankly, some of

the amazing changes to society that have been made by people

who are just trying to cover something up. I mean, it seems like almost most

of these stories, right, there's an incident, and that's

bad, but the cover up and the deception

and, you know, the the lengths to which people will go to cover their

own asses is what really creates the scandal.

But, yes, I'm definitely gonna listen with a very different, ear next time and and

pay attention to that. And, obviously, I'm fanboyning all over

American Scandal. If you haven't listened truly, you have to check it out. There are

just some amazing stories. It's a great education. It

really will open your eyes up to the way the world works, unfortunately.

Do you have, like, a signature

in the music? You know, is there something that

people will hear and immediately say, ah, that's a that's

a Lindsey Graham. That's an airship thing. Is there something you always like to you

know, almost like, filmmakers like to throw on, like, a Wilhelm scream in there.

Right? Right. Yeah. No. I don't think we

have, you know, an inside joke like that or

or or, you know, an inside anything. I mean, I do think

we have an anesthetic, and that that

stems from, you know, originally, it was all me doing all the

stuff. And so I only have my own taste to go by. But over

the years, we've we've developed a a a process and a

method. You know, the shows that the shows were successful.

So, we we tried not to break

what was what we tried not to fix what wasn't broken.

And, and so, yeah, there's there's definitely some form

formulas to to how we work. And I think if you listen to if you

listen to American Criminal, which I don't host, but my

my my company produces, and you listen to American

Scandal, there will be probably a lot of

similarities in in the the the infrastructure

underneath. But, no. Nothing like a

Wilhelm scream. I do I I will tell you I

hate downbeats. I hate heavy downbeats.

So if if you're ending a section or you're making a point,

I hate ending on a bum, like

12341. That's just so

obvious to me. I would much rather end on something that

just whiffs away into the atmosphere, a 123 and.

I do notice that a lot of the things linger and

not in a bad way, but just they're there and they slowly fade away until

the next start be you know, the next piece begins or, you know, you move

on to the next the the next portion of the show.

I'm curious, what year were you approached by Wondery, and

what was it like to go from, you know, a

marketing person with a musical background to a, I'm

gonna, you know, kinda try this podcasting thing to,

you know, being approached and ultimately, I

guess acquired might might not be the right word, but, you know, ultimately

partnering with what is one of the most successful

content production brands in the space today?

Yeah. Well, I, in a, in a one word, it was fantastic.

So, you know, I never really knew what I was gonna

do when I grew up. I I much of

my school career was just, doing what was

expected of me next. I got my MBA

for almost petty reasons because a a coworker of mine announced

that they were going in to get theirs. And I was like, oh, I'll be

damned if you're gonna get one and I'm not going to.

And so, you know, I I I I I have no good internal

personal reasons for for do doing these things, for making

some career choices, other than, you know, you need

the money to pay the rent. Right? And I think that's probably

true for a great portion of of people out there. So,

podcasting was this opportunity to

kind of assemble many of the things that I I knew I liked

doing, and put them in one place. You know, I I

do have a, you know, a a business mind. I

like spreadsheets and and I like running my company.

I also like podcasts. I like audio. I I love music.

I like storytelling. So this is just getting better and better the more things I

get to to, you know, cobble together here. So it was transformative,

and is. I'm the happiest, most content I've ever been in my

life right now, and I hope next year is even better, you know? And I

I know I know that that's a place of privilege,

but, it's it's it's great great to be here.

I, love that you say it that way. When I was

consulting with people, I was always asked, you know, what makes for a successful podcast

or, you know, why should I do this or or, you know, how do you

know a show is gonna be good? And one of the things that

I found was that most of the shows who found any level

of success, right, whether they were, you know, Kelsey Brothers

being acquired by Amazon or, you know, this guy being acquired

by Spotify, or even just the person who, you know, does it and

then finds that there's a few 1,000 people in their niche

who love what they do and now gravitate to them,

is that the person doing it, they

are having fun. Like, they would wake up

and wanna do this podcast even if nobody listened.

And obviously, that's not a great business model, but it

sounds like storytelling, narrative, music, right, this whole

combination is just fun and

joyful with a lot of work. Right? I'm not downplaying the fact that you

guys put a lot of effort into this, but, you know, the fact that you

love doing it probably makes it easier to be successful at it.

Yeah. I mean, I think that's one of the the big ingredients. I mean, I

couldn't do it as a job if it weren't successful. I mean, you've got a

horrible catch 22 there. You know,

I'm, I put in the work because I have the time and I have the

time because it is successful and, you know, where the chicken and the egg

is in that sentence, I don't, I don't really know. But,

yeah, I, I think I am one of the lucky ones. Look,

also, I don't really enjoy doing all the accounting

every month or, you know, being the only IT person in

my company, you know, etcetera, etcetera. There are things that

you need to do, wheels that need to be greased and cogs that need to

need to be cleaned so that this machine keeps going.

But, Yeah. I mean, I I think I think I

love it. And, it's it's not something I

really ever dreamt of or or saw on the horizon, but,

once it came close to me, man, I was I was really grabbing

for it. Oh, I love that. And, yeah, I mean, obviously, that that's a

cash 22, but I'm thinking one of my old clients was a guy. He's a

chess teacher, and he enjoys teaching chess. He

was teaching a couple of students here and there, and this was back

in 2016 ish. So podcasting was, you know, gaining

some traction, but wasn't a a huge deal the way it is today. And he

approached me. He's like, you know, I really love listening to these podcasts over here

in the finance space, but nobody's doing anything like this for chess. And I just

love talking about chess, so I'm gonna do it. And he he did

it, and he wasn't making a lot of money off of it.

And but he loved it. He just got to talk to more and more

people from the chess world, and then, you know, putting in that passion, putting in

that time, having the patience. A a few years later, he

was being approached by some of the biggest companies in

chess. He was talking to these grandmasters and worldmasters in

chess. His show became this

this place where people

wanted to be. Right? It was like it was like validating. Right? You're

not you're not a superstar in chess unless you unless you've spoken to this guy

and appeared on his show, and it just came out of his passion

for it. So it yes. It takes work, and it's you

know, success obviously breeds more success, but, you know,

advice to those out there thinking about a podcast, if you

don't love what you're doing, if you don't wake up and wanna do

it, it's probably gonna be a bigger struggle. What what about what other

advice would you give to someone, especially someone who's thinking about going down this

more narrative, you know,

produced podcast role Right. Road as opposed to just the, I'm just

gonna talk to the folks in my industry like I get to do. Yeah.

Well, it's a lot more work, obviously, the you know, on on the production

side, you know, you you have to do many more

things, because you're making a different product. I mean, we call it a podcast,

but, it is really different from what we're doing right now

to what I will go back to doing in a few minutes.

It's it's the difference between, you know,

reality TV and, a feature film,

or it can be. So be prepared for the work. But,

I think if if you

if you have a passion for a for a subject

and you have a passion for teaching, because that's really kind of what

we're doing here. There are also investigative

document documentary, narratives too.

So you could either be a documentarian or you could be a a

journalist by nature. You have a subject that you love and

can't stop thinking about. And

and then probably, you have to assess whether you

are a storyteller. I don't

know if it's nature or nurture, frankly. I think

it's probably both. But, I would I

would wonder when I'm at a party and I start telling a

story, do people pay attention? Do they

follow? Do they laugh? Do they, you know, gasp?

When do you enjoy telling that story? Is, are the, is the audience

reaction the one you want? And do you get it often?

Because I, I think if, if you realize that you have

that ability to tell a story at a cocktail party and be engaging,

you probably have some native native ability to figure

out what the the longer story is and and

use those, those innate skills and hone

them so that you can craft a story that,

the twists and turns and keeps your audience on the hook.

Love it. Love it. As a reminder, we are chatting

with Lindsey Graham. He's the founder of thrum, and that is the

platform for, production music library for podcasters

and documentarians and those who really wanna tell a

story. And he is also a podcast creator, producer,

and a host of very, very good shows and, many

well known ones including American Scandal, which we've talked about, History

Daily, Business Movers, American History Tellers. One that I

saw on your list that I'm gonna be checking out, 18/65 that I'm excited to

check out. And so we'll have a we'll have a link

to his link tree so you can find all this great stuff. We'll have a

link to thrum, so you can go check out that platform, and

also maybe check out airship.fm. That's the production company that,

you founded. But, before we let you go, Lindsay, we have

a couple of questions we like to ask everybody. And given

your place in the podcasting world, I'd be very curious to

hear, some of these answers. So first is, is

there a place or is there something within the podcasting

world that you would like to see improved?

That can be hardware, software, it could be from

the production side, from the listening side, like, is there just something that you think,

gosh, I wish we could change this and make podcasting better for

everybody? Oh, I'm sure there is.

It it is probably, it is

probably still discovery. You know, there's not a

great search or or

recommendation algorithm out there that that is,

that works for everyone. You know, one of the

great things about podcasting is it's this, you know, open ecosystem,

and no single platform owns podcasting. But that also means

that there's it's fragmented and hard to find. And, you

know, I as an example, my podcast,

American Criminal, which was launched just this year,

had a little bit of of promotion or or, you know,

in in Spotify. And, what

was once about 5050 Apple Spotify is now, like, 95%

Spotify in terms of audience breakdown. I

can't get Apple users to find this show.

But by example, Spotify, users found the show and

enjoyed it because a lot more came along for the ride. So I know

that there are people using Apple Podcasts that would like this show if they could

just find it. And, that's that's

really frustrating, especially when I have metrics that can demonstrate

that this show could have a bigger audience if the platforms

had an ability to really find the people who are looking for it.

I'll make sure to put the Apple link to that show in particular

so that people can find it. I know. Any because I wanna check that out.

Every listener is a good listener. I don't mind at all. But, you know, I

just know that I'm leaving listeners on the table on the Apple side of the

equation. So, if there were some better,

you know, and I don't think it's a single system, you know, like like YouTube's

algorithm or something. I think it just takes a a

maturation of the industry still that people say, hey,

I I I need a new podcast, and, it's it's a lot easier

to find, than than it is currently.

I like that. Is there any piece

of tech that is on your wish list?

And by that, I mean, you know, something out there that you have always wanted

that you wanna buy or maybe something that hasn't even been

created that you would like to see made that would make your studio

more enjoyable? And I say this knowing that you have a fantastic studio, and if

you wanna just tell us about some of the basic equipment you're using for the

podcast, we'd love it. Oh, sure. And this is stupid, stupid

gear stuff, and a lot of it is, like, 10 times more expensive than it

needs to be. So with that caveat,

so over here, we'll we'll run down my signal chain.

I start with a Neumann U 87 AI. So

the the utmost broadcast NPR standard of microphones.

I previously used a a AKG's,

c 44 c 14 c 414.

And that was fine. But, you know, I I got the Neumann, and I I

stayed with it. That goes into a

Rupert Neve Designs Shelford channel. That's

my preamp, and EQ and compressor. And then

that goes into an RME Fireface

UCX 2. That's my, kind of multichannel,

audio interface. And I like that because I've got, the

remote, the USB remote, and it's got a lot of functionality, on

it. That goes into my home built

PC, and

that, goes into Reaper,

Kakkos' Reaper. That's my DAW of choice.

And we do everything in Reaper. All my employees work

in Reaper. It's it's lightweight, inexpensive, and really powerful.

I I had a few, contractors I worked with who love and swore by

Reaper, so I could definitely appreciate that. So is there anything out

there that you would like to see made

or, something out there that you don't have that you wanna pick

up? I was thinking about this actually

earlier this morning, and it's interesting. It's it's on the it's on the

hosting side. I wish more,

podcast hosts, and currently I use Art 19 and

Megaphone. There are many, many others, and I don't have experience with

them all. But I wish their dynamic insertion

for ads, promos, and content were a was a little

more robust. What what I mean by that is right now,

oftentimes, I can insert I can

mark insertion points for things that are promos or

ads. And and sometimes the ads have

differentiation of pre roll or mid roll or post roll.

And sometimes the promo promo can be promo only or

like bottom of the funnel, you know, sort of,

if nothing else is in there. I would like a many

many many more, opportunities to mark

things so that, I can dynamically change

my content as it's appropriate for for me, for

marketing. The one thing I really don't wanna do is,

what has been asked of me recently, go back to an old

episode and change the the introduction to

mention the new American History Tellers book.

Right? And I I I'll be fine to do that, and it makes sense. I

want the book to sell, but I don't want to change

the episode audio to stuff in this

marketing thing into what is, you know, the

program. I would love instead to dynamically insert

it,

and let it be known that it's content. It's not a promo. It's not ad.

You know, it's it's not a pre roll. It's not a post roll. I could

should make it anything I want. I would love to, have,

upload 4 different files that are is my colopen, my

intro, act 1, act 2, and act 3, and my,

outro and my credits, where that's 7 files, and have

them dynamically assembled so that I could, eventually swap

out any one of them. So,

you know, and, you know, all all sorts of things I could do

with, with dynamic content, you know,

especially if I was more current events, that makes it even more

important because maybe I can address things based on geolocation

or, you know, time of day that a listener is listening

to something. There's just a fascinating array of

opportunities if hosting companies allow me more power in

dynamic insertion. You are

speaking my language. I would love,

love to be able to truth, I'd love to develop it,

but even use a platform that allowed you to

have more geolocal and,

like, time dynamic insertion. Right? I think that would open

up huge opportunities in lots of different

areas, and I could probably talk to you about that for another 33 minutes,

but maybe I'll take that offline with you another day. But I oh, I love

that answer. That's a great answer. Thank you. The last one, this is probably

gonna be the hardest question you are asked, is

is there a podcast out there right now that you are listening to

that no matter what you're doing, when the new episode drops, you stop and you

turn to it, like a favorite podcast that, just has

your attention? The answer is no.

I knew it was gonna be a hard one. I will expand I will expound.

As you might imagine with with, 3 weekly,

shows, a a a 3, one

daily show, and then managing and producing about 3 others,

I'm listening to a lot of audio a lot of the time.

When when I clock out, at the end of the day, the last thing I

wanna do is listen to something. So I drive

home, with the radio off and just the

sound of my own wheels driving me crazy. That's, that's

kind of all I want. Now there are certain shows that

that, when I, have an opportunity, a vacation along, you

know, a road trip or something like that, I will get back into,

Revisionist history has always been a favorite of mine.

Malcolm Gladwell, just has a, a

way about him, a humor and, a curiosity that I find

really compelling. Smartless does, does it

for pure entertainment. I really enjoy it.

I I've listened to Smartless a lot for their ads because I

get a lot of the same copy and, and I just wanna

check-in on, you know, how they're doing it,

and compared to maybe even take notes on how I can, you

know, do the next ad. So

there's 2 that I listen to, you know, recreationally, but I'm

really not a a large or intrepid

podcast consumer. I I understand that

feeling when I was heavy into the production company and editing

audio all day. When I finally was able to shut down the computer and not

have to work anymore, I would just throw the headphones and be like, ah, I'm

done with this and put on a screen. Right? Like, give me something other than,

you know, audio to listen to so I I can understand and appreciate that,

and I like I like hearing that you listen to shows for

the research on how to do the commercials. I think that's a that's

a unique perspective that I think other people could learn from because,

you know, yes, the the audience might groan at the thought of commercials,

but, man, when shows do them right and they could be entertaining

and they can be useful and engaging and

fun, I mean, that really is gonna go a long way to support your venture,

your project, and your passion. So, you know, don't

just don't just do it to get it done, but, you know, take the time

to think about it, and it will really help your ability to keep supporting the

project that you're working on. Lindsey Graham,

this has been an absolute joy. As a reminder to everybody, he's the founder

of thrum.audio, thrum.audio.

It's a musical library for narrative documentary

podcasters who wanna really turn up their game on how

they add audio and music to their productions, and he

is the host and creator of several chart

topping shows, notably, obviously, American Scandal,

which I've already said I've listened to many, American History Tellers,

History Daily, a few others, American Criminal out

there, and a few more that we'll try and have links to all of them

here in the show notes and implore you to check them out. You will

love Lindsay's dulcet tones, in your ears when you're listening to these

shows. It is a real pleasure. Thank you so much for joining us today. Thank

you, Matthew. Thanks for joining us today on

Podcasting Tech. There are links to all the hardware and software

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