PART 3

[00:00:00] Ross: Hi there, and a very warm welcome to Season 5, Episode 46 of PeopleSoup. It's Ross McIntosh here.

[00:00:06] Michaela: So what I noticed was that I needed to just honour my energy in the moment, if I needed to go up or needed to go down. When I needed more excitement, I joined a tour. You know, I did one of those walking tours or, you know, met new people. And what I noticed, that in order to create the experience I wanted, which was adventurous as well as spacious, I needed to be brave.

[00:00:31] I needed to be vulnerable. So I made some amazing connections with people by simply asking, Oh, do you mind if I tag along?

[00:00:39] Ross: Pea Soupers, here's the third and final part of my chat with Michaela Thomas. Michaela is a senior clinical psychologist, CBT psychotherapist, author, award winning podcaster, and corporate speaker. In this episode, you'll hear more about Mikayla's Spacious Adventure, a 10 day solo trip to Vietnam. We cover the origin story, the planning, the experience itself, and returning home. She also reveals the secret mission that formed part of the adventure.

[00:01:09] Now, for those of you who are new to PeopleSoup, hello! Welcome! Great to have you on board. we are an award winning podcast where we share evidence based behavioral science in a way that's practical, accessible, and fun. Our mission is to unlock workplace potential with expert perspectives from contextual behavioral science. Let's just scoot over to the news desk because reviews are in for our last episode, which was part two with McKayla. Claire Stafford, friend of the show, said on Facebook. I'm a big PeopleSoup fan as you know, Ross.

[00:01:52] But this was the first time I've been moved to tears. Listening to Michaela talking about the meaning behind the singing of Shine Your [00:02:00] Light at the toddler group was beautiful and so powerful. And this whole episode was a lesson in true authenticity and showing up exactly as you are.

[00:02:09] Shine bright. Well, thanks so much to Claire, and to everyone who listened, rated, and reviewed. Your support can help us reach more people in the workplace with stuff that could be useful.

[00:02:20] And, of course, Claire will be receiving some of our newly designed bookmarks.

[00:02:24] These bookmarks will be dispatched by our global distribution center in the Northeast Powerhouse that is led by Big G, my dad.

[00:02:32] he sent some of the previous bookmarks to Peru, so distance really is no object. and folks, you might have heard, about my Act in the Workplace, Train the Trainer program. It's rapidly approaching, and there's still time to reserve your place.

[00:02:46] If you'd like to bring evidence based training to support well being and psychological flexibility for adults at work, then look no further. show notes, including the discount code. But for now, get a brew on, and have a listen to part 3 of my chat with Michaela Thomas. let's delve into your Spacious Adventure. This ten day solo trip to Vietnam. I'd like to ask you a few questions about it and help, maybe help you unpack it too.

[00:03:19] Because you're recently back. So, maybe starting with the origin story.

[00:03:23] Michaela: Yeah, so why did I do this? Why did I say Spacious Adventure? Well, I mentioned that my word for the previous year, for 2023, was beacon, and I was doing the home retreat with the Burn Brighters and thinking about their words of the year, and we then do watercolour. Bookmarks. So I do a sort of spacious, letting go a perfect watercolour workshop where we sort of get into flow.

[00:03:47] We, we practice sort of feeling the flow of the, of the brush. There's a particular type of water and water technique that feels very, I can't explain it in another way. It's very, it's very sensory, tingly feeling. [00:04:00] And it helps us to sit with a sense of purpose as well of bringing the values into it. So writing down a word or two on that bookmark that then you take with you.

[00:04:11] Uh, home and that's sort of your intention or your, you know, guiding your practices for the year to come. So, I watched all these women come into the beautiful realizations of, I want more creativity, or I want to be more rooted, or I want to be, you know, whatever it might be. It was beautiful to watch it unfold.

[00:04:28] And I realized I was struggling, I couldn't quite come to one. So I was like, oh, yeah. Creativity. I really want more creativity. I want to do more watercolors that isn't just when I teach it. And it didn't quite sit right. So I was like, well, you know, that's about spaciousness, right? I want to be more spacious.

[00:04:45] I want to be more reflective in my work. I want to be Slower, but then I thought if I just go slow then I just do the down regulating and I needed that up regulating as well like I said about the fire starts to burn in a kind of courageous way and I'm stepping out of my comfort zone and I've been singing to these women on my retreat days.

[00:05:06] After spending a lifetime of never using my voice, so, Oh, I want a bit of an adventure. And it came to me when I neared 40, which is the first day of the year. So on the 1st of January, 2024, I turned 40. So it's quite a nice thing of like bringing that in together with your vision board. And it came to me that it needs to be both.

[00:05:28] If I just have spaciousness, I get bored. Right? That's the difficulty with the ADHD brain and combating stillness despite me feeling the most alive and Preciously pleasurably tingly when I am in stillness. I love it, but I also resist it so it needs to be an adventure an adventure with experimenting with stillness and That's why I picked spacious adventure because I knew that I'd booked my flights in September to go to Vietnam in [00:06:00] January.

[00:06:01] So I thought, let 2024, the year of my 40th birthday, be my spacious adventure. So I started creating a list which I called 40 things at 40. I saw someone do that somewhere. And I was really conscious to not put stuff on there in a kind of New Year's resolution, push, push, push, pressure, pressure, pressure, because pressure is like the most common thing in my community and within myself.

[00:06:23] So I've put every single thing on that list. I let that emerge slowly. They literally came imperfectly by having a brainwave, dumping it in a WhatsApp message to my husband. And he has kept track of which number am I on now? And he was like, yeah, you're on this number.

[00:06:37] spacious adventure

[00:06:37] Michaela: And I've only added things. They felt like they could be a spacious adventure, not, Oh, I'm turned 40, let's have a midlife crisis and must do these things.

[00:06:46] No, no, it's midlife clarity. I realized how do I want the rest of my life to be. And I'm gonna borrow a phrase that one of my friends says, who lifts very heavy weights, like, you know, she can deadlift 100 kilos. She talks about how she trains for her old lady body. Right? And I wanted to train my mind and my body for my old lady body.

[00:07:07] I wanted to reduce my risk of Alzheimer's. I wanted to increase the chance of living healthy and living well. And that's how I came into my 40th year. So my spacious adventure in Vietnam had to reflect all of that. To it wasn't just go and see everything I can see in a pressurizing way or must go and stay in a Yoga retreat for 10 days and not speak to anyone like I didn't want anything to be forced either the adventure bit or the spaciousness Bit I wanted it to be a fluid dance between the two whenever I would need it so coming back to what I said before of my Perpetual balancing tightrope for the rest of my life.

[00:07:45] It's going to be, when do I go up and when do I go down? So Vietnam was basically a concoction of the two, uppers and downers in a not illegal way.

[00:07:57] Ross: Lovely. And what did it feel like when it was approaching? [00:08:00] What was that sense in you?

[00:08:02] Michaela: Oh, I felt I ran out of all my spoons because I freaked out more about what. Backpack to use, than I did about the concept of solo traveling for 10 days, which is again a very kind of symptomatic thing of the ADHD brain of bringing, you know, calm to chaos and crisis and bringing chaos and crisis to the calm.

[00:08:24] So the bit that other people would have been absolutely fine with, like, maybe printing out some of their booking confirmations, I was utterly freaking out about. So I had to sit down with my husband, who's He's very good at being structured and organized, uh, he loves a good list, and he just helped talk it through with me to give me clarity of mind.

[00:08:42] What was I booking and what, order? And I, he didn't need to do anything for me. He just needed to be that, that body double, that sounding board of me being able to speak out loud of what I wanted this experience to be. Because the most overwhelming thing coming into this trip was to pick. you know, for someone who wants to research everything, to pick what I did in what order and how to this.

[00:09:04] It's obviously a huge exercise in executive functioning that I challenged in. So turning to someone else for this and getting advice, seeking support, because I've really had in my mind, I'm not afraid to ask for help. It was a phrase that was written on a little paper scroll on my pillow on a yoga and nutritional retreat I went to in September last year.

[00:09:27] I'm not afraid to ask for help. So I approached my spacious adventure with that in mind I'm not afraid to ask for help. So that meant with organizing it my husband printed out all the booking confirmations I didn't do any of that. He let me know when I was on the trip. He sent me screenshots of when There was these reminders to book in for your flight, to check in online, etc.

[00:09:49] And knowing he had my back, made it a lot easier. So we complement each other, we are a team in our partnership. So, I approached the trip to Vietnam with [00:10:00] some apprehension, but mostly just excitement, because I knew that whatever happens, I can deal with it. That's the flexibility and the intuition and creativity that comes with the ADHD brain.

[00:10:10] I thought, if any crisis happens, I will deal with that. No problem. Don't let me deal with the calm and composure just beforehand, because I have none of that. So, and I say that jokingly, with sort of a smile on my face, because that's part of the acceptance piece that I've done over the last year of coming to terms with the ADHD ness, that this is who I am, and this is how I'm gonna show up.

[00:10:31] And I had a whale of a time whilst I was there, so Yeah, let's see if there's anything else you want to know beforehand about the journey into it before we dive into what actually happened while I was there.

[00:10:41] Ross: Um, no, I think, I think you've covered it. Let me just have a look at my notes. No, I think I'd like to dive in. What did you notice when you were in the whole spacious adventure?

[00:10:53] Michaela: Oh, there was so much noticing, Ross. There was so much noticing. And I noticed that for whatever reason, I really resisted writing anything down. I'd brought with me my, my daily journal that I tend to do at home with the kind of flow or the format of journaling that I do at home. And I brought a leather bound, beautiful book to have where I was going to write down the kind of, as I said, travel memories.

[00:11:17] Didn't touch either of them once. And I was just curious about why am I resisting that? I was running through all my other things on a daily basis, uh, that I do. I use an app to check off the things I'm supposed to be doing. And I don't mean supposed to be as in a pushy way, but the practices I've chosen for myself.

[00:11:34] When I have them on an app, it makes it so much easier for me to just go, What am I doing next? Oh yeah, I'll do some somatic exercises. Tick, done that one. Get to slide it across and there's this dopamine of saying, Yay, well done, you've done this for 26 days straight. So. I took this time, this spacious adventure, to really want to cement some of my healthy habits.

[00:11:52] The ones that are hard to do when you're juggling a couple of kids and working life. So, I really noticed that I found [00:12:00] myself loving and enjoying meditation. I've been meditating every day since mid January. And meditation has been like the final frontier for me with my perfectionistic, fast paced, brilliant mind that thinks faster than it can speak, if you see what I mean.

[00:12:16] It's hard for me to do those things. And what I noticed when I was away By creating spaciousness, by having created really strong self boundaries beforehand, I felt myself longing for it, and I felt pleasure from doing it. It was almost like a tingly sense of, Ooh, I love sitting in this. And for the first time in my life, I sort of experienced almost like a sense of transcendental kind of pleasure of it, like there was one particular sound, kind of immersive sound experience I did that I absolutely just like, oh, this is, this feels, I feel so alive.

[00:12:51] And it was just focusing for 10 minutes, you know?

[00:12:55] Honour my energy in the moment

[00:12:55] Michaela: So what I noticed was that I needed to just honour my energy in the moment, if I needed to go up or needed to go down. When I needed more excitement, I joined a tour. You know, I did one of those walking tours or, you know, met new people. And what I noticed, that in order to create the experience I wanted, which was adventurous as well as spacious, I needed to be brave.

[00:13:19] I needed to be vulnerable. So I made some amazing connections with people by simply asking, Oh, do you mind if I tag along? You know, it's everything from spending almost two days straight with an Irish couple, because we sort of connected sitting for four hours in a, in a hot tub and just getting lost in conversation, to meeting someone on a, on a walking tour, everyone was dispersing and I was saying, Put you free for dinner, you know, just that don't ask, don't get right.

[00:13:50] And that meant that I had company and also, so that's kind of tickles there. The excitement need, the dopamine need, meeting new people, getting to listen to new [00:14:00] people's stories, having connection. And then equally, I had time where I had dinner on my own, I had spaciousness, and I got used to tolerating my own company.

[00:14:10] And if we don't do that, if we don't spend enough time just quietly in our own company We don't lower the busyness. It's really hard to listen. To really listen to what's going on within you. The realizations I've had when I've just sat gazing into my fursuit, on my own, it's been amazing. Because I've not been just dulling it with other noise, you know?

[00:14:33] Ross: Yeah. Wow. And did

[00:14:35] you,

[00:14:36] Michaela: Profound.

[00:14:37] Ross: yeah, I'm, I'm wondering where to go next. I sort of. Geographically, did you travel around the country? How did that work? Were there, were there set plans or was

[00:14:46] it just

[00:14:47] arrive and see what happens?

[00:14:50] Michaela: No, because that's, you know, there will be some ADHDers who would love that, the prospect of that spontaneity, but that freaks me out, um, because I need to have some structure to feel good. So, I did exactly the same thing as I did when I solo travelled around Japan in 2012. I set my itinerary beforehand, which is the agonising bit of having to plan, structure and plan, you know, organise it.

[00:15:13] But once that was set, I felt such a, a sense of calm that I have almost like a skeleton here. And all I do now is to flesh it out with experiences. Much like agonizing over the, the outline of a book. Both, you know, both the times when I've written an outline for a book, I agonized when I was trying to kind of, what's the skeleton here?

[00:15:35] And once I've done that, it flows. I can just throw meat on the bones. So, that's again, having a, An awareness of my ADHD brain, so I needed to have the skeleton, I needed to have a rough itinerary. So I booked all my accommodation, I booked my flights to arrive in Hanoi and fly home from Ho Chi Minh City.

[00:15:53] And then I knew I wanted to do some sort of journey from one to the next. And it wasn't exactly how I'd planned, I didn't make it [00:16:00] as far down south, as I'd hoped, but. I realised that it was better to do fewer stops and have more spaciousness in each stop. So that's again the balancing act between spaciousness and adventure.

[00:16:10] Seeing more things versus having time to also rest. So, there was a lot of that and I was trying to kind of almost like counterpose it. Like in yoga, we do a stretchy pose and then you do a counter pose to offset whatever you've done. So, when I'd had a stretchy walking tour, long dinner with someone, then I offset that with a long shower when I came back or, you know, meditation in bed, etc.

[00:16:34] Or I had a slow start to the morning, I went to a yoga class. So, I just, I knew I wanted to collect experiences. So I did four different yoga practices. One overlooking a rice paddy. Beautiful, right? At sunset. One overlooking a beach. Uh, in the morning with an amazing lunch cooked on the beach afterwards.

[00:16:58] One on a platform on stilts in a lagoon at sunrise, twice. I mean like, if you don't like yoga in those settings, you're not gonna like yoga anywhere. So, I collect sort of yoga experiences. And all of those were aimed at It's downregulating after I had upregulated, you know, I'd had the space, I guess spaciousness after I'd had lots of fun, connection with new people, because I love that, I thrive off that, I charge my batteries off it.

[00:17:27] And then at the same time, I need to then, as you can hear here, I'm having this conversation with you and I'm loving it, and then afterwards I'm going to want to have a lie down. You know, it's, it's how it works. It's how my energy works.

[00:17:40] Ross: Absolutely. And I'd love to hear you talk so clearly about up regulating and down regulating and doing what you need to do. so you land back in the UK, what plans have you put in place to sort of ease your way back in? Because, because I guess the temptation [00:18:00] could be, goodness me, family life, work, I've been away for 10 days, goodness me, blah, blah, blah, blah, how was that?

[00:18:08] Michaela: You know what, I was consciously thinking about that, um, yesterday, because yesterday was the last day to sign up to my new membership, the ADHD club, which is for high striving women who suspect they're ADHD, so self identify or have a diagnosis. And it's a new initiative that I've started, and I'm conscious that I was in that launch of speaking about it.

[00:18:30] before and after going to Vietnam. I extended it by a week thinking, you know what, I don't want it to be something I do in a pushy, pressurizing way that I'm stressed out about. I want it to be easy. I want it to be all the things that I talk about, ease and peace. So I extended the cart, cart open, as they call it, for a week.

[00:18:50] And then I was about to close it, knowing I had done very little about it since I came back from Vietnam. I landed on the 5th and The, the doors were supposed to close on the 13th of February. And I just thought, that's okay. I could have done lots more social media shouting about it, saying, come join this, this is amazing.

[00:19:08] I could have written newsletters about it. And then, instead I'd just lean back in again, and trust that what will be, will be. And people who need this offering, they will come into my world, and they can join whenever. So I decided to change the rules again, and get into the rebel streak. Rather than, doors closed now, you can't join for six months.

[00:19:26] Because that's what you're supposed to say to create things like urgency and people making a decision. I'm just like, F that. It's my business, my rules. I don't feel like shouting about it. I need to recover from Vietnam. I need to recover so I have also spaciousness to hold the emotions for my children.

[00:19:44] You know, we've not touched upon that, but I'm very conscious. I'm a very connected mother. I'm very conscious that I was hard for them to be away from me or me to be away from them for 10 days and I needed to hold space for their dysregulation. So I decided no, I'm not going to do any more promotion of that.

[00:19:59] What [00:20:00] will be will be and people can actually join whenever. Because I thought about it, again coming back to what we know from psychology and evidence base. I know what I need to be well, and I know I cannot come straight back from what I've been talking about as a spacious adventure. Going gung ho back into work and go like, here's 50 million posts about this.

[00:20:20] That just, it's jarring, right? It doesn't match. It's not on brand for the message I try to share. So I had to be very Restful about it. I've worked very little this week after Vietnam And then I took four days off to be with family from Sweden and I really wanted to be present with them But I always noticed the urge first.

[00:20:39] I noticed the patterns I noticed the old thoughts saying or maybe you can squeeze in an hour of work and I chose not to I said, I see you and I'm not going there. I see you. I know why you're here. I know you're trying to protect me I know you want me to not fail in my business I know you want me to to make sure you're present and available for those who serve and it was fine Anyway, I instructed my team to leave me alone and they respected it.

[00:21:03] They held the fort nothing Combusted nothing blew up. Nothing bad happened, and I'm in a good place It's

[00:21:12] Ross: And Peasoopers, I know we've only scratched the surface of The Spacious Adventure, but, you heard it here first, there's going to be a mini series about The Spacious Adventure, so, you'll be able to tune into that with Michaela, and find out so much more about this whole experience.

[00:21:32] Michaela: going to be very exciting, that's, I mean, it's something I've not mentioned yet, but it was a secret mission as well to go to Vietnam, that I went to four different accommodation places because I was scouting out where I'm hosting my own spacious adventure retreat next year. So, that's

[00:21:48] gonna happen,

[00:21:50] Ross: ho

[00:21:50] Michaela: yeah, mic drop, that's gonna happen, and I found

[00:21:53] it, it's in the lagoon.

[00:21:54] It's my, there was my fourth place I went to, and I found it, and I'm now trying to [00:22:00] just get my courage, courage in order to just go for it, but yeah, anyone who's interested, if you don't want to come to a retreat, I also am thinking I want to do more of the travel agent stuff I'm trained in as well, so if anyone wants to just Replicate the trip I did.

[00:22:16] Get in touch and I'll book it for you. So, it's one of the things that I have accepted and allow myself to just be multi hyphenated. Like, I'm an author, hyphen, speaker, hyphen, you know, podcaster, hyphen, travel agent, hyphen, retreat runner. You know, I can be anything I want. Because that makes me feel alive and vibrant.

[00:22:37] I just need to downregulate after.

[00:22:39] Ross: Wow. I love The Secret Mission, and if you're not already following Mikado on social media or listening to her podcast, I'll make sure all the links are in the show notes. But Mikado, I just wanted to draw us to a close. Oh, I feel exhilarated. Um, Would you have a, takeaway for our listeners? Thinking about perhaps the workplace, would you have a takeaway that perhaps would be quite practical for them?

[00:23:06] Michaela: I would say, really try to tune into and notice where the pressure is coming from. It's the pressure coming from within you, from high standards and expectations of yourself. Maybe through no fault of your own, you've always been pushed to achieve, and that's how you've hinged your self worth on all your achievements, and needing to be perfect, or never feeling good enough, is that?

[00:23:27] Inner story of failure and fear of failure. Is that the pressure you're bringing into the workplace or is the pressure actually external so that there is, you know, a sense of needing to be constantly available, constantly, um, dependable, you, you know, actually allowed to switch off because the expectation is around you to reply to emails at 10 o'clock at night.

[00:23:49] So you're actually in fact in a toxic environment or is it twofold so that you've brought with you internal pressure. of high standards into an environment that [00:24:00] says yes, please, thank you. I'll have some more of that perfectionism, please, until you burn out and I'll make you expendable and get someone else in your place.

[00:24:08] If you're in a toxic environment and already bring high internal pressure, it is a recipe for burnout. So I encourage you to consider and notice where's the pressure coming from and what choices can you then make. Because even if you suffer your internal pressure trying to be kind and caring and compassionate to yourself, if you're in a toxic environment, you know, you're in a soil that's never going to allow you to blossom.

[00:24:31] And equally, if you remove yourself from a toxic environment, but you bring the internal pressure with you, you're going to create the toxic environment and burnout wherever you go. So then doing that inner work is important too. So starting point is just to notice where is the anvil coming from, what's weighing it down, and then make some wise choices.

[00:24:55] Ross: Wonderful. Michaela,

[00:24:57] you're so, there's such clarity. I've got clarity envy do you know what it shows? It shows the inner work you've done.

[00:25:03] Michaela: yeah. Yeah, I mean, I've I've had to sit with that a lot, it's, it's, owning it over time, and it's, it's not to say I'm not scared, I mean, I'm petrified of what people will think when this comes out, and you're still recording, so you can use this too if you want, I am petrified of what my colleagues will think, and I'm doing it anyway, it's, you know, The classic of like feel the fear.

[00:25:24] Fear and do it anyway. I'm just, it's just, I just see it as the baggage I carry around with me on my back. These are the things that I have to hold if I also want to go in direction of my values, so I know if this changes anything for even a single person listening to people's soup, then my work here is done.

[00:25:41] If a single psychologist. is a little bit more daring, a little bit more rebellious, looking at the systems they're in, my work here is done. If a single individual person goes to their workplace and goes, hang on a minute, this is toxic, my work here is done. If a single person goes, I can give myself that same permission, [00:26:00] my work here is done.

[00:26:01] Ross: Michaela, I want to thank you for being such a pioneer, a creator, an innovator in the world and living your life out loud.

[00:26:10] You truly are inspirational. Thanks so much for coming on the show.

[00:26:14] Michaela: Thank you so much for having me, Ross, and for allowing me to have the rambles of my mind. And that's how it goes. And, uh, yeah. Be a rebel with a course. You can do it as well.

[00:26:25] Ross: Amen.

[00:26:26] That's it, P Supers. Part 3 of my chat with Michaela in the bag. Thanks so much to Michaela for being so awesome. Next week I'll be talking to Dr. Sarah Pegram about body image and weight stigma.

[00:26:43] And if you're liking the cut of Michaela's jib, and are interested in her burn bright program, you'll find a link in the show notes. And please say that you discovered her on PeopleSoup. Now, folks. We need your help. You can support us and help us reach more people with this behavioral science. So

[00:27:00]

[00:27:00] you enjoyed this episode of the podcast, we'd love you to do three things.

[00:27:04] Ross: Number one, share it with one other person. Number two, subscribe and give us a five star review, whatever platform you're on.

[00:27:12] Number three, share the heck out of it on the socials. This would all help us reach more people and make some noise with stuff that could be useful. We'd love to hear from you and you can get in touch at peoplesoup. pod at gmail. com. On X, formerly known as Twitter, we are at peoplesouppod. on the gram, known as insta, We are at People. Soup and on Facebook we are at PeopleSoupPod. You can also drop us a review or get in touch using a voice note on WhatsApp.

[00:27:40] Thanks to Andy Glenn for his spoon magic and Alex Engelberg for his vocals. Most of all, dear listener, thanks to you. Look after yourselves, peace supers, and bye for now.

[00:27:49] Brilliant.

[00:27:55] Michaela: That's a wrap!

[00:27:56] Ross: Brilliant. Thank you so much.

[00:27:58] Michaela: How did that go, do you feel? Do you feel you got what [00:28:00] you wanted?

[00:28:01] Ross: Oh my gosh. Yes. Yes. And more.

[00:28:04] And you know, you will be a dream to edit.

[00:28:07] Michaela: Oh, that's good to know.