If you are unable to come to work for six months,

who would run your business?

What will happen to your business when you retire or if you unexpectedly passed away.

In this episode, we're talking about succession planning.

You'll learn what succession planning is, why it should matter to you, what happens

if you ignore it, and stick around to the end to learn how to get started with

succession planning in your business.

Welcome to Architecture Business Club, the show that helps you build

a better business in architecture so you can enjoy more freedom,

flexibility, and fulfillment.

I am John Clayton, your host, and if you're joining us for the first time,

don't forget to hit the subscribe button so you'd never miss another episode.

We are joined by Kevin Crawford.

An architecture practice leader with over 20 years of experience running

and growing a practice before putting a succession plan in place through a

transition to employee ownership today, he's the founder of Designing Success and

co-founder of the Architectural Survey Company and Pilotis, where he helps

architecture practice leaders design better businesses, gaining more clarity,

time, and freedom, while strengthening the person behind the practice.

To connect with Kevin on LinkedIn, just click the link in the show notes.

So we, We are gonna talk about succession planning, so that you can build a

more resilient architecture practice.

Um, this is a really important topic and it's something that we

haven't covered on the show before.

So, um, when the opportunity came up to, to talk with you about this, Kevin, um,

I thought this would be really valuable for us to share with the audience.

So, just to start with the basics.

What is succession planning?

It's future proofing, uh, the business.

It's protecting legacies.

It's, um, it's ensuring that the business continues, um, without you at some stage.

It's something that we certainly.

Didn't take notice of until it was too late.

Well, not too late, but very late in the day.

Um, and it's just something that, yeah, I just encourage everybody to, to look into,

uh, because it's a massive, massive thing.

Um, and if it's left too late, it can obviously cause problems.

Okay, so, so this is really planning for the eventuality.

An inevitability in many ways that you as the leader of the practice,

you are not gonna be around forever.

So it could be that you are unexpectedly unable to work.

It could be that you want to retire, we all gonna pass away at some point.

Hopefully we've still got a few years left on the clock between us.

Um, but it's planning for those eventualities to ensure

that the business can still.

Thrive.

Um, without you or without you, the key people within your team.

At Crawford Architecture, it was maybe slightly,

uh, well, probably not unique, but, uh, it was a family business.

Uh, my dad started in 1987 and we always, we always.

Mentioned it from time to time, but it was something that a younger me

just thought I was traditionally told.

My dad was traditionally told that, you know, these things sort

themselves out at retirement age.

And we said, you know, we'll get a, a meal, a coffee, a drink, whatever it was.

We, we'll, we'll sort it sometime.

And they, they didn't feel like there was any panic, any rush.

Um.

And then my dad got to, uh, 70, uh, probably 70th birthday.

You know, I was just, uh, touching 40 and what, what, what do we do?

What, what actually happens here?

Um, we also had a lot of long serving, uh, team members at Crawford

Architecture probably sitting there in the wings wondering, you know, is

their career pathways, what, what's going to happen to the business?

we we're very late in the day.

We were of the opinion that this just sorts itself out when my dad

wants to take a real step back.

Um, and I found out that it's, uh, clearly not that way.

Um, and the other businesses that we've since started, um, which are all

like an ecosystem of tools for, uh, for practices, but, um, they're all.

It started with succession plans in place, you know, with, uh, you

touched on Pelus there with the, the app that we've been developing.

There was a five year, uh, plan put in place from, from day one, uh, when

we got the investment to, to do it.

So, um, we were very much like, I guess, the traditional way of doing things.

You know, we don't, we don't need that.

Well, we'll worry, worry about that tomorrow.

It was definitely a, a, a tomorrow job, you know, keep putting

it back, keep putting it back.

And to be honest, I didn't even know what it was.

I didn't.

I didn't know what the options were.

I didn't, I'd never looked into it.

I was just very much the, uh, and my dad as well, very much the, uh,

ostrich, you know, buried the head in the sand and, and not become the eagle.

Um, and rise above and have a look down at what's actually happening.

So I think we, when I look back now, it's great to be able to tell the story,

but probably not with that in mind.

But we had.

Very much put system, strategies, software, all these sorts of things

in place, which in the end probably made it a lot easier because we had,

you know, we'd looked at, um, people in certain roles and, one year plans,

three year plans, things like that.

But we hadn't actually looked to the actual succession.

Bear in mind that I was only 40, um, you know, which clearly I didn't.

Plan to, to do what we've done at 40.

Um, and it was probably forced upon us because of my dad's age and his situation

for, uh, for what he was going to do.

So, um, yeah, it's an interesting one, but it's, it's complex as well.

Absolutely.

Yeah, I think the.

The situation that you described, or at least how it you, how it was before

that you'd gone through this process, that that sort of, uh, manana, you know,

we'll, we'll leave it for another day.

We won't worry about it.

I mean, that must be the sort of status quo with, with many,

like majority of practices.

I would think that it is something that.

I think thinking that far ahead can be a bit uncomfortable for people, you

know, thinking about coming to terms with the fact that they may not be

around forever and that they do have to think about, you know, what is the

exit plan or the strategy for sort of passing the reins onto somebody else.

You know, how will this business continue?

Um, and that's probably quite scary for a lot of people to think about.

Yeah, very much so because.

The industry, um, it's very much reactive.

Um, I think reactive is one of the main problems that, that certainly we had

in the practice for a long time, and that, without going down that topic,

but, you know, that's like when people are reactive to, to every request,

teams, clients, projects, uh, emails, um, but it's like, just deal with the,

the fire in front of you at the moment.

And my personal experience, which is.

Uh, yeah, it, it's nice to speak about it now, but I wish I'd obviously known what

I knew now all these years ago because I, I thought by spinning the hamster wheel

faster and harder, I thought by going in at 4:00 AM and working till midnight.

Don't get me wrong, I always came home and, uh, you know, I had time with the

kids, but as soon as they were in bed, I was back to it and I was, my approach was.

Work more hours.

Um, that, that was my original plan, uh, which probably

relates with a lot of people.

but obviously since then, uh, clearly that wasn't the, the way to do it.

Um, and then we needed the right people in the right seats and we

needed, uh, all these systems and strategies and things in place and, uh.

Yeah, heading towards the, um, the all up my goal, which

was the succession planning.

But there's, even with that, I think it was a two year, uh, a two year,

challenge, basically from the minute I started looking into it, to when we

actually did the, uh, the transition.

So it's a long, it's not something we're gonna take lightly, obviously.

Um, it's a massive, massive decision and potentially even more so because.

My mom and dad were involved and, and it was their retirement as well.

So it's not just me.

Uh, so I kinda had a double, uh, a double pressure, if you like.

I need to look after, well, it's three.

It was three ways because it was, I had to get a solution that worked for.

My mom and dad in retirement for myself and my family, and also the,

the team at, at Crawford Architecture, you know, a lot of them, like

I said, have been long serving.

Um, but, but the whole team, you know, how did, how did what my dad started

in 1987, and I've obviously contributed to, you know, to over the last 20 years.

Um, how did we protect that legacy?

How did we ensure that the company kept going?

Um, and what was the best, the best outcome?

There was probably three options.

and we just chose, yeah, employee ownership and.

It was, it's exciting.

It's, it's not without its challenges clearly I don't think anything is,

there's no overnight successes.

Um, something that's built over 39 years in my dad's case, but

obviously in my case, I went as a 14-year-old after school.

So I've been involved in the practice for 27 years.

Um, probably, certainly 15 to 20 of them in the managerial role.

And obviously the latterly 10, 15 years pretty much, you know, in that, um.

A role of, of managing a team of architects and technologists and admin and

finance and everything that goes with it.

Um, so there's a lot to think about.

Um, but it's, that was our choice.

Um, but the people, a lot of people I also work, um, and, and speak to

a lot of, uh, different practices nowadays, and I just find it really

interesting because the majority haven't.

Looked at this, uh, don't know anything about it, and probably

do think it's for a, a rainy day.

Um, I used to think we were alone.

I used to think, why do we not have this in place?

And I think probably my dad would agree with me, um, probably from

his side because he's my dad.

He probably felt that he wishes he'd done it, but hey, everything's

there to become a story, isn't it?

So we didn't have it in place and that was just how it was.

Um, but now we do, and it's a lot of hard work,

So we, we've talked around this a little bit, but

why, why does this matter?

You know, could we talk a little bit about the, the why

about why this is so important?

Yeah, I think, um, why it's so important is because, like

you say, there, welcome a day, um, when somebody either wants to retire

or somebody wants to go part-time or somebody wants to spend more time.

Uh, for me, I, I actually, I clearly didn't want to retire, um, at 40.

Um, but what I did want to do was have a, um, like so, so Cammy being 11.

Um, in particular got Charlie Ben eight as well, but at 11 years old, I kinda looked

at that spell for the next five to seven years, you know, being, uh, as a kid,

um, until he, you know, he is, uh, maybe not wanting so much to, to do with us.

Um, so I looked at that and I felt that I just wanted to, my main goal

here was to enjoy my, my role doing what I do, but, um, being, being

present, being, being present for them.

And that was, uh.

I didn't want to go and take on another five to seven, 10 year plan to just pay my

dad for his, we were 50 50 shareholders.

Um, so if I went with a 5, 7, 10 year plan to buy my dad's 50%, I would then be.

financially tied to doing that for that period of time, I would then be

able to turn around to call me at 18, Charlie at 15, um, and say, guess what?

Dad owns a hundred percent of a business and I might have

been nearer 50 by that time.

And then I think, you know, what, what am I going to do with it?

You know?

So I would then just be back to, I would've went through all that to

then not have a plan for myself.

So, um, I think.

I'm lucky.

I feel lucky.

I was, you know, a lot of stress, a lot of, uh, a lot of tough times in

there, um, mentally, is it everything?

Uh, it's really, really tough.

But, um, I think it's so important because you need a, it's like anything,

you need a plan in place, don't you, you know, for, for most things.

Um, and a plan for the business is one thing, but the succession

plan is a, a major thing.

And I think for the rest of the team as well, because they now, um.

You know, two people were made, uh, directors, there was a, you know,

a design director, a commercial director came out of that.

Um, there was two people became directors of an EOT board.

And it's the little things that people almost, you know, I, I like how they

speak about we, as opposed to, they used to say, I work for Kev, um, or John.

And I always used to connect them saying, well, you work, we work

together as a team and we probably installed like an employee.

Ownership model if you like, or attitude or culture.

Culture's the word actually, um, in the team previously.

But I think with doing what we're doing, it shows that it's not just about us.

Um, it's about the, the wider team.

Um, and that shared vision that I speak about a lot with the coaching and the

events that I've been doing, you know, that shared vision was, is massive.

I had a vision in my head, um, and.

I didn't communicate that vision with anybody.

So how, when I look back now, people were just doing what we were like

asking them to do and nobody really knew what they were striving for.

Like, where are we, where are we going with this business?

What are we trying to, to do?

What's the, what's the goal?

What's the five year plan?

10 year plan, 15 year plan.

20 year plan?

So, um, I guess it's going back to the original question.

You know, why, why it matters so much is because if it's left too late either.

It nothing like you, you, if you leave it too late, you're

almost relying on somebody buying your, your business, I guess.

Um, and how, how do you do that?

And somebody is not just probably going to pick up the phone and say, I'll give

you X amount for, for your business.

Uh, so there's a valuation, um, of the business goes into that.

I guess even at that stage, if it's not planned properly and

it's a bit rash, then you could.

Either sell it for the wrong price or to the wrong people and then

the team maybe don't, you know, um, follow the new owner's, uh, guidance.

And I dunno, there's, there could just be a range of problems.

So, um, certainly in my case, it was definitely something

that was for another day.

But when that other day came, I just wish I'd done it previously.

But at the end of the day, it was probably.

Well, my dad was 70.

I certainly wouldn't advise doing it when you're 70.

Um, but even at 40, I would've loved if I'd had a plan in place for me starting

basically at as soon as we started, as soon as I was brought into the practice.

But certainly for people who are, maybe the practice is not, um, that

old, um, or new startups or somebody who's maybe thinking about, right.

Okay.

I'm thinking about five, 10 years down the line here because.

Certainly with the employee ownership, that's a, you know, that's a, a five

to seven year plan, you know, so it, it does take me, um, you know,

five, seven years down the line.

It's not instant.

Um, and yeah, it's just so important.

Do you think succession planning is relevant to all practice

owners, like even sole practitioners?

Does it matter about the size of practice?

Should we all be thinking about this?

So through design success now where we are, um.

You know, being, being certainly relatable over impressive,

the, the, the journey at times.

But, um, we, you know, have chats.

Look at the biggest challenges facing, uh, sole practitioners, um, up to

teams with, you know, maybe 15, 20, uh, people and everything in between.

And a lot of the times, some of the, the, the challenges are the same.

Clearly there'll be some different ones depending on team sizes, but I think.

I would say yes.

You know, like ev every business is a, is a business and especially if

you're a, a sole practitioner, because then it's solely dependent on you.

So what happens if, if you go, uh, like what is the plan?

Whatever, do the projects go who, you know?

So there's, there's got to be plans in place.

Um, or at least thinking about them.

Uh, I'm not gonna sit and say that everybody needs to do it

right now, but you need to at least start thinking about it.

And for the thinking about it, you need time.

And one of the things that I used to say was, I don't have time.

Like I don't have time for, for anything.

And now, um, so I work with, with Jason Graystone and he is my mentor and,

and his, um, his business always free.

Um, his, um, saying is that time's your greatest asset?

And it is always stuck with me because I always devalued my time.

I always said that I don't have time and now.

I don't say I have time just to do anything I want, but you choose

your time more wisely and you appreciate the value of that time.

Um.

And the reason I say that is because to get that succession plan and in place,

it needed time, it needed time out of the business, um, away from the day to day.

And it's funny because some of the events that we've held late lately, we'll have

people, uh, sign up for the event and um, then on the day we'll get an email

saying, sorry, I just don't have time.

And, uh, like I think a big, big, big part of the event is to try.

Get people more time, more focused, uh, more structure to your day, to your

week, um, to actually buy yourself time.

And for us it was actually, uh, traction.

So any, any listeners that, that like reading books?

Um, traction by Geno Wickman was a massive one for me.

Um, I read that and probably, um.

When I look back, I've, I've read a lot of books and my problem that

I had at the time was that I didn't implement what I'd learned and then

I, I began to learn to implement what I'd learned before I moved on to the

next thing, which was a big thing.

Um, but traction certainly gave me the foundation for, for how,

how I was laying out the business.

Um, one of the things.

Interaction is about getting, uh, focused days away, uh, from the business,

um, and me and my business partner.

Long story short, we went to, we decided to go to 10 Reef for three days, and

clearly that was challenging tradition.

Like, why should somebody who's so busy be able to go to 10 Reef?

We had people saying that that's not right.

We had people saying it was just a holiday.

We had people, you know, everybody doubted it, but.

I had a plan and I set out the three days.

And the three days started with, um, getting a two hour walk in the morning,

you know, at six 30 in the morning, um, getting, you know, a circa 14,

15,000 steps in before breakfast.

We then had an agenda.

One of these obviously been succession planning, um, but we also had data,

you know, how, how do we start.

Looking at data in the business, how do we analyze rather than,

uh, base things on emotion?

How do we base it on, uh, the actual, um, data that, that, that we're getting?

Um, how do we just basically try to solve everything, all the challenges

in the business in that three days?

We did that, we had an agenda all day.

We went for a nice meal at at night, and we did that repeat three times.

and now with design success, we're doing that with practice owners.

Um, it's taking a small group away, uh, for two, three days.

People that have previously said, I don't have time.

I, I don't have time to do that because I'm too busy in the business.

But you need to like buy time to get time and, and until people fully appreciate

that, um, it can be so powerful.

So, um, yeah, there's, there's a lot to a lot on that angle.

Just getting yourself away from that day to day to, to be able to do this.

Absolutely.

I love that idea.

I think it's, um, a great idea.

I think the.

A change of environment can make su such a huge difference to your mindset

and you know, how you approach things.

For sure.

So having something like that where you had like, um, a work trip away that was

very focused, working on the business like that, that's such a great idea.

what, what problems can occur later down the line if we ignore this, if this, the.

Classic thing that, let's be honest, most businesses, most small

businesses are right now probably ignoring succession planning.

Um, what are some of the problems that you've come across that

can occur when you do ignore it?

the immediate thing that springs to mind is there, is there's

actually problems both sides of it, so.

The problems, this side of it, in my case, certainly were the, um,

you know, we, we've lucky, lucky the family relationship, the family, family

dynamics and we've always got on and things, but it tests, uh, it, it, it

becomes, it's strange relationships, um, because thankfully we've got that back.

It was temporary, but there's times in there where we don't, nobody was

really sure what was happening and, um.

You know, what is employee ownership?

What, how does it look?

You know, I can't just, I couldn't just go and buy like 50% shares off

my dad because there was no planning.

Um, so I think there can be a lot of, um, problems this side of it as well.

also, like if it's not planned and you are, say you were just

selling the business, you're relying on somebody having the

capital to go and buy the business.

On the other side of it for us on employee ownership.

There then comes the challenges as well, because you've got to explain

obviously, what it is, what it means for the team, um, that it's a, it's

a longer term plan, um, and everybody needs to understand what the plan is.

You know, obviously people don't, we don't need everybody becoming

owners as the title suggests.

It's like, um.

I don't know the analogy of a a, a football team.

Everybody plays different positions.

You know, somebody's the chairman, somebody's the director,

somebody's the, the, the manager.

Somebody's the striker, somebody's the defender, somebody's the goalkeeper.

And if we all do our roles well then the practice is, uh, successful

and, and, and moves forward.

Uh, so role definitions became massive as well with it.

But, um, there's, there's challenges.

I've yet to speak to anybody who says, uh, business is easy.

Um.

I think we, we touched on the, uh, dent Global ski trip that I was, I was

on in February there, and you had 84 entrepreneurs on the, the ski trip,

and what I loved about that, I'd never skied in my life by the way, but, um,

what I loved about it was you had.

Uh, entrepreneurs, business owners, all sitting.

Um, like I say, there was, there was no egos in there.

So Daniel Priestley's motto, there was, um, being relatable over impressive

but it was everybody speaking about the challenges in business and we

all face challenges in business.

So, without deviating too much from succession planning.

You know, I just felt that we were in an industry, there was no collaboration.

Um, everybody felt, you know, you can't speak to another practice

because they're a rival or something.

But, um, that's how I was brought up and some of the best conversations

that that have happened have been coffees with, uh, other people

living the same journey because, you know, we can all help each other.

We all share the same problems.

And, and these events that we've been doing, um.

You know, nice numbers, uh, 2015 people all just let's,

what's your biggest challenges?

And you'll, you'll notice that a lot of the time people actually

start collaborating with each other.

So, you know, I, I had that challenge, but I overcome it and

I learn all the time as well.

And there's a really nice thing that I'm, I'm finding through

collaboration and, um, just about respect to each other's businesses.

And how did, how did you deal with this?

So, I think collaboration's another, another big one

for people to, to consider.

Absolutely.

I'm a big believer in that.

And, um, we could do a whole other episode or a whole series

just around that for, for.

Uh, for sure.

Yeah.

Yeah.

There's a lot of mileage in that one.

Yeah.

Um, that's been, that's been really interesting though

for you to share that as well.

As you say, it's a little bit of an aside to the succession planning.

Um, bringing it back to that though, where do you suggest we start with it?

If we want to start thinking about succession planning,

where should we begin?

I think it's back to the, the same point

that we spoke about earlier.

It's, it's, it's just giving yourself time, giving yourself at least a, a

day or two away from the, the business.

Um.

To think about that looking back, could I have done it?

Um, I, I touched on right at the start that had a back operation, okay.

And that, that forced me to stop, um, for a, for a good period of time.

Like, clearly I couldn't do my early mornings and my late nights, and

I, I couldn't really do anything.

So that forced me to stop.

And that's where I started implementing my two frameworks.

Now that I, I use, um.

So the, the first framework's personal, it's the person behind the practice,

but the second one's the, uh, the, the business, the five pillars of business.

And in that, there's a, there's, there's part of it that's about not forcing

anybody, but encouraging, advising, um, people to take time, uh, time outta that

day to just assess what is going on.

And one of the most powerful exercises I've, I've done, and

I do it at the events, is just.

Saying What, what's worked well, you know, what worked well last year?

What didn't work well last year?

What's, how's the first quarter of 2026 going, uh, what's the friction?

What's holding us back?

What's been the biggest, uh, you know, time wast and things and, and

looking at all that sort of thing.

And I think that's maybe where, where to start.

But, um, it starts with taking time because if you don't take the time and

you just keep going, you'll, you'll.

Well, there won't be time to put a, a plan in place, you know?

So,

It's just recognizing the importance of this and like

making time for the important things like this being one of them.

Um, because otherwise, like everything else just gets in the way and this stuff

doesn't get worked on, uh, unfortunately,

I think discipline, you know that word discipline comes

into a lot because it'll always be something that will get in the way.

And on the health and wellbeing pillar, that's actually become more important

than I actually ever imagined with the, the people I'm working with as well.

Um, I always including myself, but there'll always be something that gets

in the way of your 10,000 steps or your water intake or your sleep, unless you're

disciplined and you stay consistent.

And I think all these things, you know, if you're consistent, if you're

consistent with even dedicating some time.

Um, there's one of the, the clients just last week that we were looking

at their, uh, their weekly structure and how they can dedicate time to

work, um, you know, on the business as opposed to in the business.

And even just setting whatever it was, two hours on a Friday as a

starting point or dedicate half a day.

Um, and then that, that if you look at your weekly structure.

It's amazing if you actually just hold yourself.

Hopefully, basically it's like putting in a meeting with yourself.

But, um, then you've got to be accountable for that and don't let it slip.

'cause there'll always be a client, there'll always be an an email,

there'll always be a zoom call.

There'll always be something that could get in the way of it.

And the longer you do that, it compounds.

And then before you know it, you, you don't have any plan

in place and you've just spun.

Um, for all these, all these months, uh, and years possibly.

what would be the main thing that you want people to

take away from this conversation?

I think it's probably just a, hopefully just, you know,

if people are listening to this, you know, out for a. Out for a

run in the car, wherever they are.

I think it's hopefully just something that maybe just makes people

stand up and take notice a bit.

I think, um, when I've had a, a relationship with my own family, put in

jeopardy, um, and thankfully it is back.

We're we're, we're all good.

Um, but you can see how things can be spread and hopefully

just my, my story being at 42.

Um, it being forced upon me, um, but actually managing to, to navigate it.

And, um, I also, I spoke to a lot of people who'd been through

it, um, the good and the bad and learned a lot from that as well.

So, NBD yeah, that's what, you know, that's what I'm here for.

Design success is here for now as well.

I think succession planning becomes a massive part of that.

Uh, we are clearly not telling, uh, we're clearly not trying to teach architects.

Uh, how to be architects.

They're good at that.

Um, that's what their, that's what their skillset is.

They're brilliant at, um, being architects.

But, um, a lot of us are never taught how to run a business, and we're certainly

not taught how to do succession plans.

So, um, just leaning on that experience, um, and not leaving it too late.

So, yeah, hopefully just people, um, not thinking.

Right.

I'll just put that on the back burner again.

Um, and at least, um.

Just doing something about it, even if it's the start of it.

Um, but just a bit of a, a plan.

And like I say, feel free to reach out if, if anybody wants any advice,

zoom, call, uh, coffee, whatever.

Mm. That's fantastic.

W was there anything else you wanted to add about the topic

that we haven't already covered?

Um.

No, I think we've, we've covered it well, I think, um, like I say, I'm always

learning with it, and I think unless you do a, uh, a complete buyout and

you, you're out the, the business, um, certainly for the employee ownership,

You know, it's quite exciting.

It's a modern approach.

There's certainly within architecture and engineering, um, industries,

it's, it's popular, um, and, and only getting more popular.

Um, but it certainly doesn't come without its challenges.

I'm not gonna sit here and say that's, uh, um, an absolutely perfect scenario.

You know, I've still got a lot of work, um, that I do strategy wise with,

uh, the team at Crawford Architecture because we've built up over 25

years, um, in there, and it's me.

You know, I was choosing who does the roles.

Um, some might work, some might not.

Um, but what's the longer term plan on this?

Who's gonna step into what role?

Um, and it's me balancing that with helping others and finding time for

myself to make sure, uh, that we keep developing the, or developing and just

helping other practices, you know?

So, just encourage people to think about it.

I've got one quick question for you, Kevin.

Before we wrap things up, I wanted to ask you, what is one resource

that you use in your business that you couldn't live without?

So this could be a website, could be software, an app, um, a book, a

podcast, anything spring to mind.

the project management software.

So in lockdown, we, we, we, that's when we changed over to project

management software and it was a game changer from folk, um, in the office.

You know, people throwing a, a message on a paper airplane.

Um, but now, you know, even post-it shooting instructions over the office.

Um.

And me trying, uh, run a business on a bit of paper really.

Um, so when we went to general project management software, that was where

I had the idea, uh, to go and build.

An app, um, I probably wouldn't advise people to go, go down that journey

because it's a, it was a long process, three years, uh, hell of a lot of

time and, and everything into it.

But, um, for me it's the, it's, it's the project management software, which

is now tis, um, that, that we are, uh, we're, we're only in beta testing

and we've got, um, we've got people be testing at the moment, but for me it's,

it's the project management software.

Um, we had too many apps where we had different time tracking apps and

different this and different that, and it was about spreadsheets everywhere.

It's definitely been our project management software over

the, uh, the last few years.

Certainly I'd be lost without it.

I can check it any given time where anything is.

And, um, yeah, definitely that one.

Kevin, thank you so much for, for joining us today.

Really appreciate you sharing your expertise on the show.

Could you just remind everybody.

Be the best place to connect with you online.

Yeah, just on LinkedIn really, John.

Um, yeah, just feel free to drop a message on, uh, on LinkedIn and

uh, it's probably the best place.

Happy to have a call.

Happy to have a chat.