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Jen Oliver: Welcome to the, so that's
Why podcast where we unpack the

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science behind everyday questions.

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I'm Jen.

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Chris Smith: I'm Chris.

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Matt Edmundson: And I'm Matt.

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Jen Oliver: Right.

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So today's question.

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Why do we get food cravings?

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You know, that moment when you,
you sat there minding your own

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business and suddenly your brain
is absolutely convinced that

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nothing in the world matters except
getting your hands on chocolate or

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crisps or both at the same time?

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Matt Edmundson: Yeah, for me it's both.

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Uh, I can be completely full from
dinner and then two hours later

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I'm standing in front of the fridge
and it'll be 10 o'clock at night.

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And I'm having a sort of staring contest
with a slice of cake, genuinely sort of

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negotiating with myself about whether
just a slice really means just one slice.

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Jen Oliver: No, it never does.

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Chris Smith: I dunno what you mean, Matt.

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What you talking about?

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Jen Oliver: Of course you don't.

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But what's fascinating is that cravings
are completely different from hunger.

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Hunger's your body saying, I need energy.

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It's open-minded about what you eat.

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Cravings.

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Are your brain demanding something
incredibly specific, like it's

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placed an order at a restaurant
and it won't accept substitutes.

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Chris Smith: So here's a stat
that probably won't surprise you.

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Um, research shows up to 97% of
people experience food cravings

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at some point in their lives.

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So pretty much everyone, uh, so
we're talking about something

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that is essentially universal.

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Matt Edmundson: 97%.

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I think the other 3% are actually.

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Lying.

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Yeah.

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Uh, and so I'm guessing by the end of this
guys, I'm gonna have a scientific excuse

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for my 10 o'clock cake habit, right?

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Chris Smith: Well, maybe a loose one.

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Matt Edmundson: Okay.

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Chris Smith: Uh, so we'll explore, I

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Matt Edmundson: say wherever I can go.

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Yeah.

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Chris Smith: Well explore why
cravings mean your brain is doing

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exactly what it's designed to do.

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Just in envir an environment full
of tempting snacks and treats

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it wasn't designed to cope with.

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We'll cover why chocolate is top of
the pops when it comes to cravings and

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discuss whether cravings do actually
signal nutritional deficiencies.

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Jen Oliver: So here's
something I find remarkable.

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When you experience a craving,
your body actually undergoes

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measurable physical changes.

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You know, increased elevation, elevated
heart rate, heightened stomach activity.

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Your entire system starts
prepping for food before you've

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consciously decided anything.

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Matt Edmundson: So, lemme
get it straight, right?

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My body has committed.

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To the biscuit, Tim, before
my brain has even finished

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weighing up the pros and cons.

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Dunno about you.

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That feels like a little
bit of a conspiracy to me.

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Chris Smith: Well, it kind of, because
your physiology is very persuasive.

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Um, and the foods we crave follow
a clear and very naughty pattern.

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They're almost always sugary or salty
or fatty, or combinations of all three.

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These foods hit reward regions
in the brain in ways that

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simpler foods just don't.

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Jen Oliver: Which is probably why no
one's ever messaged their partner saying,

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pick up some celery on the way home.

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'Cause I can't stop thinking about it.

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Matt Edmundson: I'd be
worried if they did, Jen.

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Not gonna lie.

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I'd be really worried.

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Jen Oliver: Okay, so here's
where it gets interesting.

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A lot of this comes down to
the brain's reward system.

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Specifically a pathway called the
Meso Limbic dopaminergic pathway.

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Matt Edmundson: Congratulations.

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That's a bit of a mouthful.

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Jen Oliver: Yeah.

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You say it quickly with confidence

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and this system, it uses dopamine
to signal motivation and reward.

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Chris Smith: It does, and it connects
to areas of the brain, like the nucleus

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accumbens, which helps process pleasure.

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And the prefrontal cortex,
which is involved in decision

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making and self-control.

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Together, these regions influence what
feels rewarding, what grabs attention, and

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which behaviors we're likely to repeat.

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Matt Edmundson: Very good.

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So Jen, you mentioned dopamine.

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Isn't that the happiness chemical?

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Jen Oliver: Well, that's the common
perception, but it's a bit more nuanced.

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Dopamine is actually more about wanting
and anticipation than pleasure itself.

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When food predictive cues show up like
the site of a bakery, the smell of pizza,

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even just thinking about your favorite
foods, it's probably happening to you now.

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Dopamine surge is creating that
subjective feeling of craving.

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Matt Edmundson: It is
definitely happening to me now.

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Uh, there's no doubt.

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So this explains them why I can
walk past, say, a chip shop.

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Um, without being hungry, but calf
catch that sort of whiff of vinegar.

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Sorry for anybody outside of
the uk, but um, and suddenly

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I'm convinced I'm starving.

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Right.

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My brain has essentially
been hacked by the smell.

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Yeah.

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Chris Smith: And that is a
perfect example of conditioning.

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So research shows that even previously
neutral stimuli can trigger cravings

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after being paired with food consumption.

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In one study, participants who
were exposed to serving trays

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paired with chocolate, subsequently
experienced cravings when

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just showing the trays alone.

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No chocolate present.

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Just the tray was enough.

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Jen Oliver: I'd feel robbed.

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But if you always snack when you're
watching television, I guess simply 10 and

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on the TV can trigger cravings regardless
of whether you're actually hungry.

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And time of day works the same way.

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If you always have something
sweet at 3:00 PM at 3:00 PM

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your brain starts expecting it.

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Chris Smith: And the food industry
understands this extremely

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well, so-called hyper palatable.

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Foods like chocolates and
snacks are specifically

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engineered to maximize reward.

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And of course, advertising creates
associations between their products

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and these positive emotions.

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Matt Edmundson: So they're
basically creating the Pavlov's

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dog experiment, aren't they?

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Except for.

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We're the dogs, and the bell is
every advertisement, every smell,

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and every moment of the day.

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Jen Oliver: Yeah, you're right.

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And I think also a lot of people
struggle to tell the difference

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between physical hunger and
emotional cravings in the moment.

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Um, because physical hunger develops
gradually, it's regulated by hormones

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like ghrelin signaling hunger
and leptin signaling fullness.

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And you feel it in your stomach,
and it can be satisfied by eating

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until you're comfortably full.

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Chris Smith: That's it.

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And emotional cravings are different.

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So they come on suddenly and
intensely, and they're often alongside

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stress, emotions like, um, sadness
or boredom, or even happiness.

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So rather than stomach sensations,
they're experienced as what researchers

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call head hunger, like a mental
preoccupation with specific foods.

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And interestingly, or worryingly, they
persist even after eating to fullness.

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Jen Oliver: Mm.

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Matt Edmundson: Which is crazy.

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So we eat because we feel bad, then we
feel bad because we've eaten and then

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we eat because we feel bad about eating.

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And you, the loop continues.

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Jen Oliver: Exactly.

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And that guilt perpetuates the
cycle because negative emotions

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themselves can become triggers.

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Matt Edmundson: Okay.

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So what actually then
kicks off the cravings?

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What are the main triggers?

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Chris Smith: So chronic stress is huge.

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So when you experience prolonged
stress, your body releases elevated

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levels of cortisol and cortisol
directly stimulates appetite and

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increases cravings, particularly
depressingly for calorie dense foods.

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It actually alters the reward
response, making comfort foods feel

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more preservable and temporarily
reducing stress related emotions.

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Matt Edmundson: So when people say
then that they're stress eating,

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that's not just a figure of speech.

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Chris Smith: No, not at all.

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And sleep deprivation
has a similar effect.

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So even a single night of poor sleep
disrupts your appetite hormones.

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Ghrelin goes up, leptin goes down,
and brain imaging shows that.

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Sleep loss impairs your
prefrontal cortex while amplifying

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emotional processing regions.

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One study found that sleep
deprived participants were up

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to 55% more likely to be obese.

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Matt Edmundson: That's insane.

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Jen Oliver: Yeah.

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Matt Edmundson: So my, my very
terrible decision then to stay, uh, up

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watching, you know, one more episode
of whatever series is on at the moment

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is directly linked then to my terrible
decision to demolish half a packet

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of digestive biscuits the next day.

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Jen Oliver: Yeah, but that
depends what you are watching.

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Matt Edmundson: That's so true.

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Jen Oliver: And hormonal fluctuations
also play a role, particularly

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during the menstrual cycle.

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The hormonal changes can cause blood
sugar levels to drop, promoting your brain

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to signal for sugar, and your serotonin
levels also drop and eating carbohydrates

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temporarily boosts those levels, and
so that gives a bit of a mood relief.

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Matt Edmundson: Okay, so what
about dietary jurisdiction then?

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'cause I've heard that trying to avoid
certain foods can make the cravings worse.

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Is that right?

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Chris Smith: Absolutely.

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It's well established.

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So when people label foods
themselves as forbidden or they

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actively try to suppress thoughts
about them, that cravings increase.

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It's called ironic process theory.

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So deliberately trying not to
think about chocolate cake makes

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it more mentally accessible.

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Okay.

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Jen Oliver: And studies confirm
that participants on restrictive

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diets report more food cravings,
and those on like really low calorie

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diets are more likely to overeat
previously banned foods when they stop.

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Matt Edmundson: Okay, that's good.

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So I, I can now feel vindicated
for never having these successful

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completed a diet in my life.

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Jen Oliver: So now here's the big one.

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I wanna tackle the idea that craving
signal nutritional deficiencies.

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Chris Smith: Well, sorry to do
my usual myth busting thing, but

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the concept is largely debunked.

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So like the idea that craving chocolate
means you need more magnesium.

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Let's be honest.

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If cravings truly reflected
nutrient needs, we'd expect people

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to crave nutrient dense foods like
spinach or nuts when deficient.

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Instead, cravings overwhelmingly
target these hyper palatable,

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very tasty processed foods.

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Jen Oliver: And the chocolate
magnesium connection's actually

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been tested, hasn't it?

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So when chocolate CRAs
consumed white chocolate.

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Which contained no magnesium,
their cravings were reduced just as

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effectively as with dark chocolate.

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It's the fat and sugar content
drive in the craving, not magnesium,

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Matt Edmundson: which is a real shame.

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So my chocolate craving then isn't
my body's uh, sort of sophisticated

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way of requesting yet more minerals.

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Yeah, I dunno what to
say about that really.

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Let's move on.

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Chris Smith: I bet, I bet.

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Still enjoyed the study though.

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I'm sure it's

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good.

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Jen Oliver: But there's another angle
to this that I find genuinely wild.

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Matt Edmundson: You
need to get out more of.

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Jen Oliver: I really do.

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Matt Edmundson: Genuinely wild.

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You definitely need to get out more.

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Sorry.

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Jen Oliver: It's wild.

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It's the gut microbiome.

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So your gut bacteria communicate
with your brain through what's

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called the gut brain axis.

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Different bacterial species
thrive on different nutrients.

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So some reacher researchers suggest
that microbes might actually

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influence the cravings to get
the foods they need to grow.

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Wild, wild.

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Alia.

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Matt Edmundson: Wild.

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This is so wild.

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So what you're telling me then,
let me get the wildness correct.

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Is that the bacteria in my gut are
manipulating, which is such a good

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word, they're manipulating me,
uh, into eating what they want.

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Jen Oliver: Yeah, I mean,
it sounds farfetched, but

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the research is compelling.

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So individuals who are chocolate
desiring have different microbial

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metabolites compared to chocolate
in different individuals.

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Even when eating identical diets and
that suggestion, microbiome composition

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is influencing your preferences.

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I need to get on these chocolate studies.

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Never invited on them.

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Chris Smith: Yeah.

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Should we just do one anyway?

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Yeah,

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Jen Oliver: yeah.

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Invite to a

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Chris Smith: chocolate study.

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Matt Edmundson: I'll
take one for the team's.

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No problem.

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Chris Smith: And to go further here,
so ESA study even identified the

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specific or a specific bacterium, and
it's called Bacter Vulgarus, and that

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is casually linked to sugar intake.

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And it works through gut receptors
that affect hormone secretion

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and ultimately brain circuits
controlling dietary choices.

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So yeah, it's kind of telling us
what to eat, what he wants us to eat.

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Matt Edmundson: So there's an entire
ecosystem in my gut with opinions

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about what I should eat for dinner.

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That's just brilliant.

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It's a great excuse, isn't

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Jen Oliver: it?

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The exciting thing is, sorry.

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Even more wild, is that 'cause our
microbiome can be influenced by what

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we eat, prebiotics and probiotics.

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There's a potential for targeting gut
health as a way to manage cravings.

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It's still emerging research,
but the connections real.

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Matt Edmundson: Okay, so, uh, wildness
aside then, what can people actually,

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what can I do about this more importantly?

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Jen Oliver: Okay.

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So mindful eating has emerged as a
powerful approach, and that involves

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distinguishing true physical hunger from
emotional urges, being present during

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your meals, noticing your triggers.

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Studies show that viewing cravings
as temporary mental events rather

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than commands you must obey.

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They consistently reduce
intensity of cravings.

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Chris Smith: Yep, absolutely correct.

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And there was a six week study
performed that found that mindful

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eating, reduced binge eating episodes
from four to one and a half per week.

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So this approach works through
awareness, not willpower or restriction.

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Matt Edmundson: Okay, so instead
of thinking I must have chocolate

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right now, it's, I'm experiencing
a thought about wanting chocolate.

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And I love that phrase,
Jen, that you said.

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What was it?

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I'm having a temporary mental event.

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I'm gonna, this Is

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Jen Oliver: your family gonna love

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this?

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Matt Edmundson: Yeah, it's gonna
follow me around the whole of my life.

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Now, masters having another
temporary mental event.

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Everybody, TME.

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Jen Oliver: Exactly, but
you observe the craving.

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You acknowledge it's there, but
recognize you don't have to act on it.

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It takes practice, but
genuinely works apparently.

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Chris Smith: That's it.

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And another thing to do.

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So when, when a craving does
strike, simple strategies help.

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So distance yourself from that
trigger, as hard as that might be.

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Even set yourself a timer for 20 to
30 minutes and just do something else.

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Because many cravings pass on their own.

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They're not permanent states,
and a big one is drinking water.

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So if you drink a glass of water,
when you've get getting a craving,

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it can help too, because a lot of
thirst signals are mistaken hunger.

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Matt Edmundson: Okay, I'll try
the drinking water thing, but

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what about people who have tried.

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All of that and still find
themselves raid in the cupboards.

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Chris Smith: So as crazy as this might
sound, taking back the control helps.

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So giving yourself permission to
occasionally enjoy crave foods mindfully

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without guilt, can reduce their power.

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Matt Edmundson: Have got the power.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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I

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Chris Smith: really dunno
what to say about that.

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Um, so total restriction.

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So taking away.

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Craving well crave foods, completely
intensifies cravings as we discussed.

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So the goal isn't perfection, it's
understanding what's happening and

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making conscious choices rather than
feeling controlled by these urges.

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Matt Edmundson: Brilliant.

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Okay guys.

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So why do we get food cravings?

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Chris Smith: So food cravings are
driven by your brain's reward system.

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Dopamine signaling creates intense
motivation to seek specific foods that

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trigger by conditioning, by stress.

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Poor sleep.

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Hormonal fluctuations
and environmental cues

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Jen Oliver: and not by
nutritional deficiencies.

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Despite what you might have heard,
your body isn't sending your

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use sophisticated signals to eat
chocolate 'cause you need magnesium.

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It's your reward circuits responding to
a lifetime of positive food experiences.

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Amplified by whatever's going on in
your life and your body at that moment.

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Matt Edmundson: So when I'm convinced I
desperately need chocolate 11:00 PM it's

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my brain's conditioning combined with
whatever stress I've accumulated that day.

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Not some mineral deficiency
I should be listening to.

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Jen Oliver: Exactly.

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And understanding that
is genuinely useful.

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Once you know cravings are driven by
conditioning and circumstance rather than

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nutritional wisdom, you can work with them
rather than feeling controlled by them.

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Chris Smith: So that's
why we get food cravings.

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Your brain is doing exactly
what it's designed to do.

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Just operate in, in a modern
environment full of hyper palatable

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foods and constant food cues that
I biology just wasn't built for.

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Jen Oliver: So that's it for this week.

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Make sure you hit that subscribe button.

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We're unpacking the science behind
everyday questions each week.

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Tell us in the comments what
you'd like us to explore.

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Thanks for geeking out with us,
but for now, that's it from me.

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Matt Edmundson: That's it from me,

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Chris Smith: and that's it from me.

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Jen Oliver: Bye for now.