Foreign.

Did you know that you were called to sing?

Yes.

I'm talking to you.

It doesn't matter if you have talent or the skill or the courage or if you're on the worship team, if you're the worship leader, none of that matters because we, as the body of Christ, have been commanded to sing to God.

Today on Worship Leader Pod, I chat with a new friend of mine, Rachel Culver from Radiant Church, on the importance of bringing God prophetic songs, not just on a Sunday, but every day of the week.

So open up your heart and give the Holy Spirit permission to speak to you today.

Come on, let's get right into the conversation.

Well, hello and welcome back to Worship Leader pod.

I am Amber Fugate, your host.

And this podcast is all about bringing and pulling worshipers of Jesus closer to him.

It's all about conversations about Jesus to have our hearts burning for more of him.

And I know that today's guest is going to help do that.

And during our conversation, it's going to be really, really awesome.

So I'm super privileged and super excited to have Rachel Culver on the pod, which, if you recognize the name, I had her husband, Caleb Culver, here on the show a couple episodes ago where we talked about family on mission, we talked about worship, and we talked about the Culver's journey from IHOP to Michigan, which was really cool.

If you want to listen back to that, that was a good conversation.

But Rachel is a wife, a mother, a worship leader, an author, a vocal coach.

I'm like, so many titles, but amazing.

Like, this woman's amazing.

She does so many awesome things.

And her and Caleb also, like, lead and lead the worship team and our worship pastors at Radiant Church in Kalamazoo, which is honestly an amazing church.

If you're in the Kalamazoo area and you're looking for a church, that is the place to be.

They are very presence driven and all about the Holy Spirit, and I am here for it.

And so it was really cool because I have known about Rachel.

Obviously, I connect with Caleb and have some friends that go to Radiant Church that love Rachel.

And a couple months ago, I went to a woman's conference and I was like, I'm just gonna be like, hi.

And so we just finally connected face to face, which is really cool.

And then I felt like a leap in my spirit and I was like, whatever she's got, whatever the Holy Spirit has imparted in her, I want to rub off on me.

And so when I invite guests to the podcast, it's not just like, who's the coolest or who's this or who has this or who's done all the different experiences of leading worship.

It's about people who I know have a deposit of the Holy Spirit and the revelation of who Jesus is, and I invite them to sit at the table with me and talk about it and so that I can be inspired and encouraged and deepen and vice versa to the guest.

So, really, the podcast is an overflow of me wanting to grow in devotion to the Lord.

So I'm super excited.

Thank you, Rachel, so much for being here.

Welcome to the pod.

Oh, man.

Thank you.

Thank you so much for having me, Amber.

Just what an honor to get to, you know, have a seat at this table and have a conversation about Jesus, about worship.

And, you know, my hope and prayer is that it would obviously be life giving to you and I as we chat, but then also just for worshipers and worship leaders and whoever happens, you know, upon this conversation.

Yes.

And, you know, I.

I felt the same way, too, at that women's commons.

I remember the moment when we met, and I felt the same.

I was like, man, I would love, love to get to know this woman of God.

And so anyways, I'm.

I'm just excited to just chat with you.

Yes, yes.

And I feel like, like, as worship leaders, if you're, like, so busy in your schedule with church and all the things that you forget to reach out to other people that might not be in your realm.

And for me, like, I'm hungry to do that, because we are the body of Christ.

Right.

We are family, and we should reach out.

We should want to glean and sit at the table with other worshipers.

Whether believers grow, I think it's an avenue or a different way of discipleship.

It's like when we talk about Jesus, the Holy Spirit again is causing our hearts to burn and then bringing conviction or correction or whatever, and the Lord continues that process as we walk away.

And so I just invite it.

And I want to, like, split the divide with churches.

Like, your church, isn't it.

Your people are awesome.

But let's go beyond the four.

Like, really before the four.

Beyond the four walls and.

Yeah, connect with other believers.

Scripture says to pray and exhort for the saints to be in communion with other saints.

And so I'm just so thankful that you're like, yeah, I'm in.

And so I'm really excited about our time.

Okay, so I'm really excited to talk about your book.

Like, this is really good.

This is Called Call to Sing.

This is one of Rachel's recent books.

And I'm not, like, I love reading, but I'm a slow reader, and I was, like, eating it up.

Like, I'm sitting in the car during my daughter's piano lessons, and I'm just, like, weeping because I think the things that I've always longed for was to know why.

Why is singing so powerful?

What has God called us to do beyond just being a worship leader, beyond anything else?

Like, he's called us, which is a lot of the meat of the book.

He's called us to himself, and then when we call, when we are called to him, then we get to know how to operate, and it's just.

It's thrilling, you know?

And I think.

I love.

Okay, I'm gonna talk about all the things, but we'll talk about that later.

But I loved it.

It's.

You did an amazing job by taking the readers not just practically, but the theology of the process of prophetic singing and singing.

And I've been just singing, but, like, what our voice does to.

What our voice does.

Excuse me.

And why God, like, hovers upon songs and to recognize how much singing is in the Bible.

Like, I was blown away over 400 times.

That's a lot.

And it was a repeat, like you said.

It was like, there's a couple different things that God repeats, like commands.

Singing is the most.

It's.

It's amazing.

And it's through Genesis to Revelation, you know what I mean?

Like, it's all through, and it's going to be what we will continue to do in heaven.

So it really is just, like, setting us up, you know?

And so anyways, you did an amazing job with that.

But before we get into that, see, I'm already, like, ready to go.

Before we get into that, I want to get to know you a little bit.

When Caleb was on the podcast, he did a pretty good job with, like, explaining your.

Your journey from ihop, I think, to Denver.

Yes, to Denver, and then to Michigan, and explains, like, how you guys met.

And even in the book, you touch about, like, how you guys met, which Caleb did touch on some of that, which is really cool.

And one cool, kind of surprising fact about you that I've learned recently is that you are a huge football fan.

You are a New York Bills fan.

And I just.

I say that because I love a girl who loves sports.

It's just cool.

And I love it, too.

And so I was like, okay, this is cool.

Yeah.

So, yeah, I mean, I.

I was born and raised in upstate New York.

And, you know, even though there are three, technically three football teams.

There are for New York, you know, if you are on the west side of the state, which is where I grew up, Buffalo Bills are the only team there.

And so, you know, technically the other ones are in New York City, actually New Jersey, so.

Right.

It's.

It's the Bills.

So I grew up in that love.

I played sports, you know, as a kid.

That's awesome.

And all of that.

So, yes, I love it.

I am.

I am a Bills fan.

And this might be our year, so.

It might be, but I don't know.

The Lions are doing pretty good.

I know.

I was at that Bills Lions game a couple weeks ago.

And the trash talk begins.

I love it.

I love it so much.

That's awesome.

That's very fun.

I love that you, you know, you do something fun like go to a football game.

You know, it's not all serious.

It's not all.

Just like ministry and more ministry and then family, which is like ministry.

You have fun.

And I think as worship leaders and worshipers and people, moms, dads, we should have more fun.

I agree.

I just saw a hat the other day.

It just said, have more fun.

And I was like, yeah, yeah.

Like, don't take everything so seriously.

It's all right.

Yeah.

Okay.

So you're a mama of two.

I've met your oldest before, your youngest.

What's his name?

His name is Jordan and he is seven.

Seven.

Okay.

When does he turn eight?

He turns eight in May.

Okay.

He's excited.

He's reminding us almost daily.

Yeah.

About his birthday.

That's coming up in, you know.

Yeah.

So many days.

Like a hundred days.

But he's got a countdown.

He knows.

Of course.

Of course.

I have a 7 year old as well, and his birthday's in February, so he really is on the countdown.

But his countdown starts on Thanksgiving.

You know, it's like Christmas is almost here, but then it's my birthday, you know, so we got the winter birthdays.

We just try to make the best of it because it's cold and snowy, so.

Yes, it is.

But being a mom and being in ministry is like a whole thing.

There's so much.

It's kind of a broad topic, I guess, but I'm curious, like, how you balance.

There's a couple different questions in this, and you can go where you want, but how do you balance motherhood and ministry?

And what are some things that you feel like God has taught you either in both of those, but that have to do with them together.

That makes sense.

Like mother ministry kind of go together.

And so I'm curious what God has been teaching you or what he has taught you in the drenches of.

Or the trenches of motherhood and ministry and any where you want to go in that.

Yeah, I mean this is such a huge topic and.

Yeah.

And so important for us moms really to, to we all end up having to navigate this.

And I'll just tell you, my journey as a mom in ministry has been all over the place.

I've kind of tried it all.

I, I have, I've done the stay at home mom, I've done the, you know, work full time in ministry while being a mom.

I've done the part time in ministry and be a mom.

And I will tell you the mom guilt exists in all three.

You know.

And so I think I really have struggled in the past with, okay, I feel called to ministry.

But of course my family is my first, you know, ministry calling like that, that it is so key for us to remember and recognize.

Right.

It's God first.

Yeah.

You know, family second and then ministry, you know, kind of outside of.

Outside of the family.

And so, you know, having to align that order in my own life and then, and then.

But yes, like, oh, okay, I think my family things are happening here and, and recognizing like, do I have capacity in this season to.

Is there an overflow where I can give some of my time and energy to ministry outside of my family?

Or is this a season where I am, you know, investing in my family and my kids only?

And, and I think, you know, I guess like, you know, men kind of go through a.

I'm just going to throw out a stereotype.

It's awful.

But you know, kind of like midlife crisis happens, like midlife.

But I think us women, we get our midlife crisis when we.

And all of a sudden our identity, you know, is kind of up for grabs again.

Who am I now with kids?

And you know, I thought I was called to this ministry or over here.

And all of a sudden we're, we're wrestling.

We're having, you know, an identity crisis in our 20s or our 30s, trying to navigate what it looks like to be a wife, be a mom, be a follower of Jesus.

And then on top of that, you know, maybe also have some sort of ministry thing happening.

And I think to acknowledge first, like that is a real wrestle for us moms.

And I have felt the mom guilt in every kind of moment of like, oh, am I doing too Much am I doing too little or.

You know, when I.

When I was staying at home, it was like, but I'm not fulfilling the call of God in my life.

And I had to, you know, kind of hear that rebuke of actually, like, this is.

This is it.

You're not missing it.

You're not missing out.

You're not behind.

You know, I think sometimes too, we feel like I've got to, like, keep, you know, doing all the things and getting in the right rooms and all of that, growing, you know, in.

In my skills of leadership and ministry and.

And really just.

The Lord is so kind in his leadership to give us seasons and, And.

And grace for those seasons, capacity for the season that we find ourselves in.

And so I think, yeah, to the moms that are hearing this, like, it's okay.

You know, it's okay to.

To be in that season.

It's okay to be in this season.

And, And I think, too, it.

Okay, another stereotype here.

But, like, women, we.

We are so prone to compare.

Yeah.

Ourselves, our journey, what it's supposed to look like.

Right?

We're kind of looking over here for what's.

What's this mom doing in ministry?

And what's she doing?

And, oh, my goodness, she's doing way more than I could ever do it.

And we're.

We comparing and it's.

Oh, and then it just.

It's.

It's unhelpful, it's unhealthy, and.

And then all of a sudden, we're trying to walk out somebody else's calling and not the one that the Lord has for us.

And so, you know, us moms, it's.

This is really, really important for us to really lock eyes with Jesus, hear and receive our identity from him and, And.

And really walk alongside our husbands, too, in.

In discerning the season you're in and what you have to give to your family and to that ministry that you're part of or that ministry that you're, you know, wanting to be involved in.

And I think too, sometimes, like, if you are in ministry and you're a mom, you think, okay, this is how I can run in all the seasons.

Like, just one way.

I'm just.

I'm gonna do all these.

I'm gonna lead worship on these days or do this, and my schedule's full of all these things.

And then you kind of have to learn to shift with your kids because even what worked then does not work in the next season and the next season.

So I agree with you of just like, leaning in on the discernment with your husband to say, like, okay, what does this look like for us?

Like, when I first had kids, I mean, I was, I had two kids at the time.

My youngest was just a baby.

My oldest was only three.

But we were like, set up, tear down church.

I'm like strapping the baby to my chest.

We're just, we're going, right?

And then I have another.

So I have three.

And I'm thinking I can still do all of that, but it just didn't work because my kids also needed me in different, like, areas and then my capacity.

But again, I agree with you.

It's like, well, if that person can do it with X, Y and Z amount of kids and they're in ministry, then I can do it.

And I think it's very important that we as moms just remember our season and write it down.

Like I write down my season of this is what's going on.

This is what God is saying, this is what God's doing.

Um, and, and surrender that to him.

But we get so bogged down.

I think Rachel, with like, like you already touched on it.

But I feel this way.

Well, I should be like running fast in the kingdom of God.

Like, I'm running too slow.

It almost feels like I'm running too slow and God's kingdom is advancing and I'm not apart because I'm at home.

When then in, like, in reality, you are running along into the kingdom of God, how do we, like, how do we remain in that truth?

Like, what do you think are some ways that we can remain steadfast?

That God has us where we are in the season and he can speak to us just as much if we were leading worship on stage or preaching or whatever, and he can move in our lives and the kingdom can advance even as a stay at home mom.

Like, how do we remain steadfast in that?

Yeah, I mean, I think we need to ask the Lord for a revelation of the value that is on being in the home in that season.

I think we've placed too much value on ministry out.

Right?

You know, it's this, it's got to be the stage, it's got to be the platform.

It's got to be impact, impact people, you know, and, and, and we've missed it.

Right?

It's if, if we're not investing and valuing what's happening at home, like those beautiful treasures that the Lord has entrusted, you know, to us, even your ministry to your spouse and, and, you know, just all, all of those Aspects the home and the, the marriage, the kids.

Like yeah, we, we miss it if we, if we don't have that same value for, for that place.

And I think it's, it's an easy trap to fall into when, when the, you know, we've just, we've just glorified ministry.

We made it this, like this is, you know.

Yeah, it's the best, it's the greatest, it's, you know, the fullest expression of what we can do here on earth.

And actually that's not true at all.

Like the Lord just makes it so clear, you know, God first, family second, ministry third.

Like, and so yeah, for the stay at home season, the, if this is where I'm at and I, you know, I'm, I'm staying at home.

I remember when I was, I was working in full time ministry a few years ago about five, five years ago I was working full time and just, it was, it was great.

And then some things shifted in our season and our family and Jordan, our son was two years old at the time and Caleb and I both, we just kind of received that discernment together and it was like he needs me home.

Right.

And we need to make some adjustments here.

And I remember kind of that moment of surrender, letting go.

Yeah.

And, and, and and to be fully, you know, frank and honest, like probably a month of really wrestling again with identity.

Like okay, yeah, okay.

This ministry that I do is not my identity and my role in my family and my kids life.

This is, this is it.

Nobody else can fill this.

Like this is it.

I have to show up here and, and, and then beginning to just honestly fall in love with the gift of that season.

It ended up being a really, really special season.

And I thank the Lord too for, for making it clear because I can't even imagine trying to like make it happen and, and yeah, and trying to do both in that moment.

And so I think, and I also you know, recognize too that staying at home sometimes isn't an option, you know, depending on families and circumstances.

And, and so I, I, but I believe the Lord gives grace for that too.

Like he's gonna give grace to, to do both and he's just.

Gosh, the Lord is just so kind.

Yeah, he is so kind and he sees, he sees our season, he sees our, our, our weakness, our, our need for him, our need for strength.

And yeah, he shows up in those moments.

Yeah.

And I think like in those moments right, where you're talking about your identity is being kind of pushed, you're being pushed Back against the wall about your identity.

But in those moments, don't you find that that is a draw to his presence?

Like, that's the goodness of God that you're talking about.

He's like, I know you feel this way now.

Come now.

This is an invitation.

He takes something that feels so hard and so heavy and dark sometimes, you know, but it is an invitation to seek Him.

And so that's why I love that you said we need a fresh revelation of what home and family looks like and Jesus and be able to implement that.

In my home, I, like, recently did just like a solo podcast.

And I was talking about how we always lead somewhere.

You can lead on a Sunday, but then you are leading at home, you're leading at work, you're leading somewhere.

We are carriers of his presence.

And in my home, I want to set the tone for his presence.

And that, in fact, is ministry.

And that is calling my whole family to come know him, because he calls us to know Him.

You know, it's like we're like 21 day fast, fasting and praying and, you know, we're praying for revival and all these things and for God to show things up in our life and to reveal new things.

And then yesterday, literally yesterday I was praying and I said, lord, what should I pray about?

He's like, you're praying for a lot of external things and some internal things to be closer with me.

But now I want you to pray revival.

Pray for revival for your family in your home.

Because that's where it begins.

I think, like what you said, we can get so caught up in the hype, right?

Ministry and do this and hurrah that we forget to do the simple things in our home that bless our home.

And sometimes that means clearing our schedule.

That means going from full time to part time.

That looks like maybe you don't spend time doing X, Y and Z, but you spend intentional time really discipling your kids.

Right?

That's the call, right?

Because the kids are in ours in a sense.

You know, I mean, they're arrows.

They're going to go.

So we are preparing them for that.

And so, yeah, I, I love, I love what you said about all that.

And it's really good.

Anything else you want to touch on that?

Anything burnin?

Yeah, I think, I mean, you, you kind of started to, to say it when you said, you know, the Lord prompted you to pray for, you know, prayer revival for your kids.

And this morning actually we, I was leading worship for a prayer meeting and the whole prayer meeting was Praying for the home.

Praying for your kids, the.

The prodigals, your marriage, your spouse.

So good.

And our.

The prayer leader said, revival starts in the home.

That's the.

The.

The hearts in the home.

Like, and before there's the big explosion of revival and ministry and the church and all the things, it's like, nope, revival starts in the home.

It starts with, you know, with an individual, with a.

With a family.

God encountering hearts in your home.

And so our prayers targeted that way, but our mindsets and our value system shifting to the home.

Yeah, absolutely.

That's amazing.

I know that God really speaks.

Let me just sit and listen.

You know, Rachel, it's like, I think I just get so busy caught up in whatever.

Like, is this even important?

Like, you spoke at the Women's Conference about not having to, like, answer everything right away.

Like, everything's not urgent.

That's what you're saying.

Like, everything's not like, oh, I gotta respond to this now, or I gotta do this, or someone asked me if I could do this.

I need to respond to that.

Versus, like, what is God calling you to do in the moment right there?

Not being so quick to just.

Yeah, overreact to things that come your way, versus just responding with just purity at heart and just like, okay, what should I be doing now?

I think that just circles all around, so.

Amen.

Look at that.

The Lord's speaking to me.

Lord's over there in Kalamazoo.

Lord's everywhere.

Lord speaking everywhere.

I love it.

Okay, let's get into your book, because I want to honor your time.

Oh, I had another question.

I'll ask that one later.

That's okay.

So let's get into your book, Call to Sing.

Okay, tell me first, like, how this birthed.

Where did this birth.

Like, where did this come out of from?

Whether it was a season or a time in your life or an encounter, where did this book actually.

Hold on, let me back up.

Sorry.

Because for viewers or those who are listening who may be like, what's going on?

I want to explain it.

So Rachel wrote a book called Call to Sing.

And I'm going to read the.

It says, a Theological overview and practical Guide to Prophetic Singing.

So before we get into anything else of the heart, for those who may not know what is prophetic singing, what is it?

Because I think some people may have experienced it and understand it, and some experience it and be like, what was that?

You know, they don't know what that is.

And so I want to know what prophetic singing is.

And if you tie in, what's the difference between prophetic singing and spontaneous?

All right.

Yeah, we're going right for it.

We're going.

All right.

Well, Revelation 19 tells us that prophecy is simply the testimony of Jesus.

And so prophetic singing or prophetic worship, right.

We've kind of.

We've like, mystified it and kind of made it this, ooh, like this swirly kind of moment, but really it's just the testimony of Jesus being released.

And so if you think about, you know, you.

You could do a.

A worship set and pick your songs, sing the songs, and then you're done, right?

Beautiful, beautiful worship.

I like to kind of think about, you know, worshiping the Lord and then in the moment, responding to what he's doing, what he's saying, and, and responding can look it.

Like so many different things, so it can look different, but responding to the Lord in real time.

Right?

Because he's, you know, we're worshiping not an object or a inanimate kind of whatever or, Or a force, but this is a person we are worshiping God Almighty, who's got thoughts, feelings, emotions.

And so as we worship, it's not this, like, static thing.

It's actually like he's speaking, he's receiving that worship.

He's communicating with us.

There's, you know, he's.

He's doing all these different things.

And so for us to, in worship, even as worship leaders, to be discerning and.

Okay, God, what are you doing?

What are you saying?

What are you wanting to release right now?

Sometimes even in my set list, I'm.

I'm kind of asking these questions, God, what.

How do you want to be worshiped this Sunday?

Like, that's good.

What's the song that's going to move your heart, you know, this week?

And, and it's not to say that we can't just make some of those decisions, of course, ourselves.

And, and part of that is offering to the Lord what we have and what's on our heart.

But so this idea of prophetic worship is like, okay, responding God, what do you want to do?

What do you want to say?

How do I partner with your heart in this moment to release what.

What you have, Releasing that testimony of Jesus?

And so, so, yeah, and then.

And then spontaneous and prophetic, right?

I.

I try to make it really clear.

I teach.

I teach this book as a class here at the school of worship in Kalamazoo.

And spontaneous is not synonymous with prophetic.

Prophetic is not synonymous.

Synonymous with spontaneous.

Right.

It's not like I just say something, sing something.

Oh, that's spontaneous and prophetic.

No, it's just spontaneous.

Right.

And so we can begin to sing our own song to the Lord or we can, you know, do these different things.

But sometimes that prophetic moment in worship wasn't spontaneous at all.

It was actually me saying, lord, what are you doing in this moment?

What do you want to say?

And I shift away from the plan and I'm like, actually, we're just going to sing Amazing Grace right now.

Right.

That's not a spontaneous song or anything.

That song's been sung, you know, for so many years.

But in this moment, that testimony of Jesus is, is released because man, he is wanting to highlight his grace to his people, you know.

And so.

Okay, that's a, that's a prophetic moment on an old song.

Right.

It didn't have to be spontaneous.

And so they sometimes.

Right.

Prophetic moments are spontaneous, but they are not, they do not have to be.

They're not synonymous.

So I kind of like to make that differentiation.

Right.

Right from the get go.

Yeah.

But I also think of, you know, with that idea of like singing your own song to the Lord or prophetic.

Ephesians 5, 19.

Paul, he says, this is to everyone too.

This is not to worship leaders.

Everyone, when you come together, come with a song, a hymn, a spiritual song.

So this is when, when Paul talks about this, he's saying, he's saying a song.

Bring, bring us.

Bring a song that's written by man.

Bring a, a psalm which is the Bible.

Like, come prepared to sing the Bible or bring a verse.

And then thirdly, he says spiritual songs.

And this is that idea of that maybe the spontaneous song that's in your heart to the Lord or.

And I love to just highlight again, it's.

He says, everybody, everybody come up.

Everybody.

You know, the, the, the preparation for worship is not just for the worship leaders, actually.

Like, yeah, the congregation, as you come, you're not scheduled to sing or you, you don't sing, you know, but you're actually like this verse is saying, come prepared, bring something, bring your offering, bring the song that's on your heart.

And so, yeah, so that idea of spiritual song is kind of what brings us into that idea of prophetic singing or.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's really good.

So like that revelation of that.

Because I think again, like, I mean, you've been leading worship for a while and you've also, like, you're at International House of Prayer and obviously that's what they do.

I Mean, that's what they do.

You know, you guys, do you read the Word and you've seen the Word, and you can tap into, you know, spontaneous, but most prophetic.

Where did that kind of, like, when did you get it?

Like, when did you get what you just said?

Everything.

You're like, okay, God's calling us to be prepared whether we're scheduled or not, whether we're worship leader or not.

When did that drop?

Like, I don't know.

You can kind of tie in, like, where that revelation came from and then how that revelation carried over to you writing the book, too.

Yeah, well, I, I mean, I'm.

I'll take us way back.

Go ahead.

I remember I was 15 and one of my favorite, like, hobbies.

This was, like, a hobby.

I love to do this.

I would get those, like, index cards.

You know, you're supposed to, like, write homework notes or whatever when you're prepping for a test.

I would take an index card and I would write a scripture that was on my heart or that I wanted to memorize, or I just was like, this is so good.

I would write it down.

I would sit at the piano and I would, I would memorize the verse to a melody.

I'd kind of just write it on the, you know, on the spot.

And then I would just begin to sing my own song to the Lord based on that verse, like, kind of getting that biblical language and then just expressing my heart, you know.

So if it was Psalm 23, just, the Lord is my shepherd, I shall not want.

Um, okay.

And I would just kind of sing to the Lord, Lord, you're my shepherd.

That's cool.

You're my leader.

I, I, I need you to lead me.

And I would get real practical, Lord, the thing at school, and I'd just kind of sing and cry and kind of like, these moments with the Lord.

But I would do that often.

I think that was kind of the start of, like, almost getting away from just the lyrics that someone else wrote for me to express my own heart to the Lord.

And again, like, oh, thank God for the beautiful songs that are coming, that are being released, that are giving us new and fresh language to express our hearts to the Lord.

And I think, I think they're so valuable.

And then in addition to, I started to realize, oh, I, when I prime this pump, there is a wellspring of language and, like, emotion that's in my heart that I actually can give as an offering and worship to the Lord.

And so it kind of started, you know, in a small Way back then.

And then, you know, my story and my journey is just kind of a lot of years of leading worship in different contexts, parachurch ministries, church ministry, and.

And just I think.

I think too, my relationship with the Lord looking the same, you know, on and off stage.

So that.

That moment, yeah, when I was playing the piano and singing the Lord as my shepherd and expressing that, bringing that into my worship leading was like, oh, this is.

I'm just doing the same thing.

This is worship.

Like, this is it.

And then as far as kind of the genesis of the book connected to that would be.

I've been teaching a class now for eight years.

Wow.

The same class.

And I, you know, this is.

For now, this, you know, first half of my life.

This has kind of been my.

My life story and work is just singing songs to Jesus and empty rooms in rooms that are packed full and stadiums and all.

All the different sizes.

And just.

I'm gonna just sing to the Lord because I'm.

I'm called to sing.

The body of Christ is called to sing, right.

If it's commanded 400 times in the Bible, like, you must want this, you know, and.

And there must the mystery of what it does in your own heart, the way it unlocks, you know, when you sing.

And, And.

And it's no wonder that the enemy goes after our voices.

It's no wonder that the enemy tries to silence us, you know, especially like young ages, like in.

In the book, I share.

I share the story of when I was like 12 years old and I did have.

I had a good voice, but I went to this, you know, kids event and we were doing karaoke, and there was a moment where like, the most, you know, beautiful, popular girl, you know, kind of makes this mean comment about my singing voice.

I was singing and she just kind of called me out in front of people, and I.

I kind of took that rejection that like, you know, you're.

You're not good.

And I struggled with that.

And it was like, she must.

Okay, I better not sing anymore.

And there was this assignment, you know, over my voice in that moment to.

For it to be canceled, for it to be shut down.

And.

And I think a lot of us, if we kind of think back there, we.

We've got moments of someone judging our.

Our voice or, you know, kind of.

Even.

Even parents or teachers or music teachers that kind of have that.

They say that thing and it shuts us down and we're.

We've been afraid to release our voices.

I've been passionate too, about the body of Christ being equipped not to, you know, sing perfectly and excellently, but to let that sound.

To let that cry of worship out, that full voice, that full expression.

And so I've.

Anyways, I've been teaching this class for.

For eight years, and maybe six years into that, my husband actually was like, you know, you've got notes all over your computer.

You've been teaching this class for so long.

Like, what if you just kind of, like, organized it and, you know, what if you.

What if you made it into, like, a workbook or you.

And.

And he's.

He was also my boss, too, in that moment.

And so I was like, okay, yes, sir.

I guess I'm.

I'm putting this together.

And as I.

As I did, I realized that this book wasn't just kind of a.

A workbook for, you know, my class that I teach once a year.

But some of the principles, some of the things that I share were.

Were for just a larger audience.

And so it was a labor of love.

Yeah.

But also, it was wild to just see, you know, the.

The truth that's in there just kind of come out.

Just the years of giving myself to it, getting to teach it.

Yeah.

So.

So, yeah.

That's cool.

Finished it up.

And when did it release?

When was the year?

It was.

I think it was.

I think it was 2021.

Okay.

Maybe 2020.

Wait a minute.

I grabbed my coffee, too.

Good for you.

I think it was 2021.

It was the.

The winter.

I remember that because it was cold.

Yep.

2021.

That's awesome.

Okay, so, yeah, it's been three.

Well, four years.

Wait, did I do that right?

21, 2, 3, 4.

That's crazy.

That's crazy.

Time for book number two, Rachel.

Who knows?

I'm working on it.

Okay.

I wondered if you were stirring the pot up a little bit.

So one question I have is, okay, I loved that you.

I related to.

I related so much to your story and related so much to just your hunger for the Lord, but the hunger for the body to get it.

Because I feel that, like, I share that same passion.

Because I'm like, guys, we're not just sing into the air, and we're not just singing just because it's the thing to do.

You know what I mean?

And it's not even just for Sunday.

You know when a worship leader says, like, all the voices sing or just the voices sing?

And I do that because I want them to know that there's power.

And what they're saying, it doesn't matter about the Tone, it's about that you are singing.

You are giving an offering to the, to the Lord.

And he commands it and he accepts it, and he loves it and he smiles upon it.

And I just, like, I get stirred up when I'm like, oh, my gosh, somebody else has that same passion, that same language.

That's what I'm saying.

It's like, cool to connect with other worship leaders and worshipers because it's like, we're not in our box.

Like, I have a very big passion to see the body of Christ, to not just sing for the sake of singing, but to know who they are, a Levite, to know who they are, to know why God called them this thing and the power behind it.

Even, like, practical and scientifically, what, like, the vibrations of your voice does.

Like, you can go down a whole rabbit trail with just like, the scientificness of singing and things like that.

And I think, anyways, I was just saying I loved how much you're passionate to like, called the body of Christ to come sing.

And in your, in your book, you said, you know, sometimes we don't feel like singing.

Sometimes you show up or you wake up in the morning and you're at home and you're like, I don't really.

What am I going to sing?

Or you.

You know, even for me, it's like, I'll just put on music, right?

Let somebody else sing, put on a playlist, which isn't bad.

I do it every day.

But sometimes, maybe just God just wants to hear your voice.

I happened to me recently where I was, like, listening to a playlist during, like, just worship time, and God said, I want you to turn off because I want to hear you.

I want to hear you.

Like, he longs to hear our voice.

And so my, my next question is, like, for those who are like, what does this mean that we're all called to sing?

Does that mean that I have to, like, join the worship team?

Does that mean, like, like, I don't have a good voice?

I don't have that.

And it goes back to what you're saying of the enemy trying to, like, shut you down a little bit.

But, like, what does that mean to be called saying, you did touch a little bit already on that.

But if you want to take it to another level of what or why we are called to sing and what that looks like and talk about, like, the responsibility of singing, like, we have a command to do that and what that looks like.

Yeah, yeah.

So the, the command to sing is for everybody or 400 times in the Bible, like, okay, we got it.

Yeah, we're called to sing.

And you know, there's a song in my heart that you can't offer to the Lord for me, right.

I gotta do it myself.

And so I think, you know, we, I love the way that you said when you're leading worship, you're okay, every voice, it's reminding the room that they're offering of sound, of praise in the form of singing is something that only they can do, right?

If just because you're in the room doesn't mean that you sang, doesn't mean that you praise, doesn't mean that you worship or you've got to actually participate.

And so I think bringing that to the forefront of our minds, okay, I've got to, I, I've got to do this, I've got to release my song.

So the call to sing is for everybody because singing is one of the seven Hebrew words for praise, right?

We're all called to praise the Lord.

Like that is a biblical command.

And so when we see the word praise in the Bible, some of the time it's trans, it's from the word tehila, which means to sing.

And so, okay, I'm commanded to do this.

I need to sing.

Now the command to be excellent, right?

At singing or playing an instrument that is not for everybody.

So I'm, I'm blanking on the chapter in the psalms.

I want to say Psalm 33, not sure, but it's, it's, it's God commanding praise, commanding singing.

But then he says, but, but let it be excellent.

Like the musicians be excellent or harp and the liar like excellence.

And so there is a, everyone's called to sing.

And then if you are going to lead, there is a call to, to excellence and to grow.

And so that would be for, you know, the ones that are like, okay, it's, I'm going to be on the worship team.

Like, okay, love it.

Let's grow, let's get better, let's work on, you know, our craft as a musician, as a singer.

And, and I think what is interesting, I love that you brought this up because I get passionate about this too, is we know if I want to play the piano, I need to learn how to play the piano and I need to practice so that I can get better.

That feels like a no brainer, right?

We don't always think of that though.

When we think about, we think I've just kind of got what I got and I'm just gonna sing and I want to see clearly like, that is.

That is perfect for, you know, everybody.

Yep.

Show up on Sunday and you sing that song to the Lord, and it's a joyful noise or it's a beautiful melody.

It doesn't matter to him.

He loves it.

Right.

But if we are gonna be leaders and sing from a platform or lead others into worship, that there is that call to excellence.

And as singers, you can actually get better.

Yeah, you can grow as a singer.

Like, such good news, right?

Kind of.

I just have, like, this raw.

Whatever the raw talent is that I have.

It's all I have.

No, you can grow it just like you would grow your skill as a musician.

And I think sometimes we forget that and we just kind of.

I just.

I know how to sing.

This is what I can do.

But actually, you know, you can grow.

And so, like, what a.

What an exciting challenge for us as worship leaders.

Oh, I could grow as a singer.

I could get better.

And so that's kind of exciting to think about.

Yeah.

And I.

Again, I was just thinking yesterday, I was like, oh, my gosh, Rachel and I have so much to talk about.

Like, I feel like I need a part two for just vocal health, because who child?

The journey of understanding your voice and a more, like, practical, like, practice.

And in all, like, the technicality of it took me a long time to learn.

Like, I feel like.

Yeah.

So I feel like we need a part two of just vocal vocal health because I'm just as passionate.

I'm like, guys, we're not getting better.

Just to get better.

Just be like, cool.

We're better.

Woo.

We made it.

But it literally is worship.

It's literally worshiping to the Lord every time that you.

Right.

Sharpen your ax as, like, as an idea.

I was listening to Michael Miller actually yesterday, and he was talking about fasting and praying, and he brought up a quote that Abraham Lincoln said.

Abraham Lincoln was he, like, chopped down wood for the railroads.

He was really good at his craft and doing that.

And he said, most of my time is actually sharpening my ax versus just laying down the wood.

And I find that you work faster when the ax is sharpened because you can do more.

And so for me, I got a conviction years ago where I wasn't just.

I just wasn't taking care of my voice.

I didn't know how to.

I didn't really feel.

I didn't.

Wasn't like, in a culture where I was like, yes, let's do this.

It was just like, you know, I went to a Pentecostal church.

We were just Shouting all the time for just no volume.

All loud.

Just loud all the time.

So I just learned the hard way.

And so.

But hearing that and knowing, like, your strength actually comes from when you are axing or, I'm sorry, you're sharpening your ax, you can lead more confidently.

You can meet.

Lead with more authority.

And it's.

It's not like a.

Like, oh, just do that if you want.

It's like, it's.

It's pretty necessary to.

To do that because you can really, again, just lean more in authority and empower.

And it's.

It's incredible to be able to encourage the worship team and worship leaders, like, grow in your craft.

Don't just get up there and sing.

Like, grow it.

And Rachel, it's not easy.

Like, I'm.

I'm kind of lazy sometimes.

I'm like, I just.

I just don't want to, Like, I just don't want to warm up.

I just don't want to.

But then, like, you know, after a set, you'd be like, wow, probably should have warmed up.

I probably should have.

Probably should have practiced my vowels of singing that song.

So I wasn't flat and X, Y, and Z.

And things happen, you know, like, even if you practice.

But the importance of it, like, that's just.

That's part two, the importance of that and understanding how to do that.

Like, I think we need more of that.

We need more of that training.

And which leads me to the last thing and then we'll close is I love the part in the.

In your book where you talked about singers by not, like, not just letting them be to the side, like, you don't really value the singers as much in a sense of, like, rehearsal.

You're just kind of like, oh, like, just learn your part or whatever you sing is fine.

Or, you know, if you don't come to rehearsal, that's fine.

Like, it's just like, if you want to come, fine.

It's not like, no, you need to be here because you're a part.

Like, you are incredibly valuable.

Singers are incredibly valuable.

They are.

I call them worship leaders, actually, because that's what they are.

But they also help lead the room, so they need to be there.

And so I really appreciated that because, again, something that I feel like, am I the one who thinks that, like, this is really important?

Like, we shouldn't just be like, no singers whatever, but we empower them also to grow in their craft and then to be worship leaders on, you know, if they want to take that next step, they are prepared to do that.

And so I think, again, leading worship is from front to back, side to side.

And it's not just, you know, what you do on the Sunday, but it's.

It integrates to your life, motherhood and leading and vocal health and all of the things.

And anyways, I really loved.

Love that part.

I'm sure you've.

Because you and Caleb kind of travel, you go to different churches, and you probably experience different worship teams, and they're kind of like, yeah, we don't.

We don't really have.

Some people don't have singers either.

I grew up in church where we didn't have a singer for, I don't know, a year or so, and it was like, it was just you.

Then when you get one, you're like, well, what do I do?

And it's like, we need to steward our singers better, I think.

Don't you think?

I.

I mean, absolutely.

Yeah.

We.

If we're honest, here's the truth.

Yeah.

This is.

This is why we tend to kind of give the singers a pass, is a singer is not going to train wreck your set.

It's.

It's going to be the musicians.

And so we end up investing more of our time and our energy, our rehearsal time into making sure that we're not going to have a train wreck.

And I think that's very important, you know, and I.

I don't want to have a train wreck, you know, in my set either.

I've been in so many that I'm like, I really don't want anymore.

Yeah, they have a go.

Yeah.

But, you know, I'll show up to a set or to.

Excuse me.

To a rehearsal, and the singer shows up and they're like, what are we singing?

And I'm like, oh, no, no, no.

You know, you come to rehearsal already practiced.

Yes, ma'am.

Already.

You know, the set list.

You already practiced rehearsals.

Not to learn the songs.

It's to rehearse them as a band or, you know, as a team.

Yeah.

So.

But our singers get away with that when we're not giving them time and attention in a rehearsal.

Okay, what are you.

But what harmony are you singing there?

What are you doing there?

Right.

You know, addressing body language.

You know, facial expressions like, hey, you don't look happy for the whole 30 minutes of your.

Of the worship set.

Let's talk about that.

Or, hey, you had your eyes closed the whole time, so you missed all the cues.

Or, you know, just.

Yeah, the things that you would call your musicians out for doing that with with your singers at least acknowledging their presence in a rehearsal, you know, like.

Yeah, and some worship teams do great at that, and they've got arranged parts in there, and those are the ones where their singers feel valued because it's like, oh, you care about what I'm doing?

What I'm.

Yeah.

You know?

And so, yeah, I think.

I think we got to lead our singers into caring, lead our singers into coming prepared, into recognizing that they're an important part of the team.

And it definitely falls on.

On those worship leaders to.

Yeah.

To make that happen.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Because it's like, what you do, they will do.

Like, if they step into worship, they'll do the same.

And it almost feels like this, like.

Like, I'm the worship leader, you're the singer.

I really care about the musicians and my MD the most, you know, but the singers, I.

I agree.

I think they are just as valuable, and they.

I think that even ties into, like, just creating a culture of honor and value in the team.

I mean, that's from front to back.

That's like sound projection.

Everybody.

I'm like, you guys are all.

We're all leading worship here.

All of us.

All of us.

Like, this podcast is worship leader podcast, but really behind the scale, it's.

We are all worship leaders somewhere.

Like, we lead somewhere.

We host a presence, and we lead somewhere.

And so just.

Yeah, creating that space of value is so, so good.

Okay.

I would love if you would just pray for us as our time comes to a close.

Just pray, really.

Wherever.

Wherever you're feeling God stir up, but just calling the body to come into revelation of more of Jesus and the revelation of singing and the command and what God longs for us to do as a body.

Yeah, just pray anything that, like, stirs your heart in that.

Yeah.

Yeah, let's pray.

Lord, I.

God, I thank you.

Thank you for this beautiful time, this beautiful conversation.

Father, I thank you for your just nearness as Amber and I have just gotten to.

To share and conversate together and.

And Father, I just ask for the.

The ones that have heard this conversation that have been a part of it.

Father, I pray that you would stir hearts of their hearts and just the hearts of.

Of the.

The congregation, the churches that are representative.

Yes.

From these listeners.

God, I just ask that there would be a rise of beautiful sound that would hit your heart, that would hit your ears.

God, just that the body of Christ would recognize and say yes to that call, to sing that call, to release their sound to you.

God, I thank you for the Just the mystery of singing and why it matters and why you value it.

God, we thank you for the gift even that singing is.

And so, Father, we just.

We say yes.

Yes, to release our sound.

God, we're not going to be silent.

We're not going to withhold our singing from you, God, but we're going to offer it as a.

As a sacrifice, as a.

As a just a weapon of worship.

God, we give you our singing.

We give you our sound.

Father, thank you for this time together.

We thank you for stirring our hearts more in love with Jesus.

Yeah, God, we just.

We thank you, Father.

We thank you for this time.

And yeah, we just.

God, we love you.

Yeah, we love you.

Yes.

In Jesus name, amen.

Amen.

Amen.

Thank you so much, Rachel.

This was.

This was really good.

And I'm like, I feel like, man, there's so much more that I want to, like, go into, so we'll have to do a part two, do, like, vocal health and anything else that comes on.

But I absolutely just love your heart.

Love.

Like, just having this conversation just caused my heart to burn just for more of him and more in the revelation of what I'm called to do as a follower and as a worshiper.

And so thank you so much for taking the time out to be here.

Really, really appreciate it.

So I know that everyone is, like, burning to read your book now.

They're like, okay, I gotta get this book, because you really do.

And hurry up before she writes another book, because then you'll be caught up, you know?

So if you want to order Rachel's book, Call to Sing, you can go to call to sing.com.

you can order on Amazon too.

But call to sing.com asks so much more information on the book and revelation and ways to connect with Rachel.

Well, she's amazing.

She posts some amazing encouragements on her Instagram.

So you want to get connected with Rachel.

She is absolutely amazing.

But thank you so much, everyone for tuning in to Worship Leader pod.

If this podcast has been a blessing to you, I would just love if you leave this podcast.

An amazing review.

5 stars on YouTube.

Subscribe, like, share all the things, and if you need prayer for anything or if there's anything in our conversation that you want to know more about or clarity about or anything like that, you can go to worshipleaderpod.com and at the bottom of the screen it says, how can I pray for you?

And anything else you want to add in there, you may do that as well.

This has been an amazing time, and I hope it blessed you and stirred you up to love Jesus more, to go after his heart, to sing the songs that he loves to hear and to forever be just more in love with Jesus.

So thank you, everyone.

Worship leader.

Pod we out.

See ya.