1
00:00:14,440 --> 00:00:18,935
Matt Edmundson: Well, hello and
welcome to The eCommerce Podcast

2
00:00:18,955 --> 00:00:20,505
with me, your host, Matt Edmundson.

3
00:00:21,134 --> 00:00:25,525
This podcast is all about helping
you deliver eCommerce wow.

4
00:00:25,694 --> 00:00:31,565
And to help us do just that, today I am
chatting with my very special guest, Peter

5
00:00:31,774 --> 00:00:36,614
Murphy Lewis from Strategic Pete, which
is one of the most memorable names we've

6
00:00:36,614 --> 00:00:38,235
had for a little while, Strategic Pete.

7
00:00:38,765 --> 00:00:42,765
We're going to be talking about decoding
the customer journey through research.

8
00:00:43,055 --> 00:00:47,114
And of course, before we get into that
Let me tell you about the newsletter

9
00:00:47,144 --> 00:00:48,785
which we send out every week.

10
00:00:48,815 --> 00:00:51,394
If you're a regular listener
to the show, just go sign up.

11
00:00:51,394 --> 00:00:52,975
Go to ecommercepodcast.

12
00:00:52,995 --> 00:00:55,775
net or even if you're a new
listener, go check it out.

13
00:00:55,785 --> 00:00:58,814
Just sign up, you get the newsletter
every week with all the links and stuff.

14
00:00:58,814 --> 00:01:00,164
They come straight to your inbox.

15
00:01:00,900 --> 00:01:03,630
Automagically, no hassle, no
drama, you never miss anything

16
00:01:03,630 --> 00:01:04,810
then, so it's worth doing.

17
00:01:04,830 --> 00:01:07,170
Go check it out at ecommercepodcast.

18
00:01:07,350 --> 00:01:07,860
net.

19
00:01:08,510 --> 00:01:13,500
And of course, this show is brought to
you by the wonderful eCommerce Cohort.

20
00:01:13,920 --> 00:01:20,550
This is a membership group for
all you eCommercers out there.

21
00:01:20,840 --> 00:01:23,170
If you're like me and you're
involved in the world of eCommerce.

22
00:01:23,575 --> 00:01:26,885
I do this podcast which is awesome
but I also run eCommerce businesses

23
00:01:26,905 --> 00:01:28,285
because that's awesome as well.

24
00:01:28,675 --> 00:01:32,085
Do a bit of eCommerce coaching and so
we decided, you know what, we should

25
00:01:32,085 --> 00:01:36,315
set up a little, a little group for all
us eCommercers called eCommerce Cohort.

26
00:01:36,315 --> 00:01:36,944
Come and join in.

27
00:01:36,944 --> 00:01:41,225
We have expert workshops every month,
delivered by experts, which is always,

28
00:01:41,365 --> 00:01:45,205
which is why we call them expert workshops
I suppose, uh, which is great all around

29
00:01:45,205 --> 00:01:49,705
the topics of eCommerce plus one of
the key bonuses, you get to watch me.

30
00:01:50,175 --> 00:01:54,835
Record these podcasts live, we live
stream them into the Cohort, so we'll

31
00:01:54,835 --> 00:01:57,655
tell you in the newsletter who's
coming up, you get to come in, watch

32
00:01:57,685 --> 00:01:59,535
and ask the guests your questions.

33
00:02:00,170 --> 00:02:01,910
Uh, which is just wonderful.

34
00:02:01,940 --> 00:02:04,550
Well, I ask them, you put it in
the comments and I ask them, you

35
00:02:04,550 --> 00:02:05,600
don't actually come onto the show.

36
00:02:05,600 --> 00:02:06,740
Let's just be super clear.

37
00:02:07,070 --> 00:02:09,560
Uh, but you get the chance to ask
the guests the question, so check

38
00:02:09,560 --> 00:02:11,459
that out @ecommercecohort.com.

39
00:02:11,480 --> 00:02:13,970
It'd be great to see you in there.

40
00:02:14,420 --> 00:02:15,560
Okay, so.

41
00:02:16,185 --> 00:02:18,045
Let's talk about today's guest.

42
00:02:18,045 --> 00:02:23,585
This dynamic entrepreneur took a leap
into the South American business world,

43
00:02:23,585 --> 00:02:28,884
conquering the media landscape with
notable achievements like working at CNN,

44
00:02:28,894 --> 00:02:32,245
no less, and hosting his very own TV show.

45
00:02:32,704 --> 00:02:37,049
Now as a highly successful marketing
consultant and podcast host, Oh, it's

46
00:02:37,049 --> 00:02:38,600
nice to talk to a fellow podcaster.

47
00:02:38,820 --> 00:02:42,570
He brings his expertise to the
forefront, shedding light on the

48
00:02:42,570 --> 00:02:47,449
captivating realm of the customer
journey and the transformative power of

49
00:02:47,480 --> 00:02:50,279
qualitative and quantitative research.

50
00:02:50,930 --> 00:02:51,739
Yes.

51
00:02:51,989 --> 00:02:54,539
There's, there's two words aren't easy
to say together, I've just realized.

52
00:02:54,569 --> 00:02:56,050
Qualitative and quantitative research.

53
00:02:56,050 --> 00:02:57,470
Peter, great to have you on the show, man.

54
00:02:57,790 --> 00:02:58,920
Been looking forward to this one.

55
00:02:58,920 --> 00:03:00,460
How are we doing today,

56
00:03:00,490 --> 00:03:00,910
Peter Murphy Lewis: good sir?

57
00:03:02,205 --> 00:03:06,745
Wonderful, really excited to, uh,
chat about customer journey and

58
00:03:06,745 --> 00:03:09,955
quantitative and qualitative also
a challenging word, it's, um,

59
00:03:12,935 --> 00:03:14,225
Matt Edmundson: Yeah,
absolutely, it's funny, isn't it?

60
00:03:14,225 --> 00:03:20,184
We'll just call it the Q& Q, uh, data,
QQ data, we'll abbreviate it, maybe.

61
00:03:20,955 --> 00:03:23,785
Uh, so how did you, um, well,
let me ask you a little, uh,

62
00:03:23,795 --> 00:03:24,865
more obvious question first.

63
00:03:24,865 --> 00:03:25,725
Whereabouts in the world are you?

64
00:03:27,090 --> 00:03:27,510
Today I'm

65
00:03:27,510 --> 00:03:29,670
Peter Murphy Lewis: in Wichita,
Kansas in the middle of the U.

66
00:03:29,670 --> 00:03:29,900
S.

67
00:03:29,910 --> 00:03:33,550
I spend about four to six months out
of the year in South America and the

68
00:03:33,550 --> 00:03:34,950
rest of the time somewhere in the U.

69
00:03:34,950 --> 00:03:35,160
S.

70
00:03:35,180 --> 00:03:38,870
but my home base is inside
of a zoo and I'm not joking.

71
00:03:39,090 --> 00:03:41,030
I live inside of a zoo in Wichita, Kansas.

72
00:03:42,270 --> 00:03:44,130
Matt Edmundson: My mum used to
say my bedroom was like a zoo

73
00:03:44,210 --> 00:03:45,469
but I'm not sure that's what you

74
00:03:45,600 --> 00:03:45,860
mean.

75
00:03:45,940 --> 00:03:46,790
I think you mean a proper zoo.

76
00:03:48,480 --> 00:03:50,390
Peter Murphy Lewis: It's true,
I have zebras that are about

77
00:03:50,610 --> 00:03:52,580
20 metres from my kitchen

78
00:03:52,580 --> 00:03:52,890
Matt Edmundson: window.

79
00:03:53,190 --> 00:03:54,600
No way, that's awesome.

80
00:03:54,610 --> 00:03:58,230
So you're like, um, what was
that movie, So We Bought A Zoo

81
00:03:58,230 --> 00:04:01,230
with Matt Damon, you're like the
personification of that guy, right?

82
00:04:01,850 --> 00:04:03,490
Peter Murphy Lewis: I'm like
the fat version of that.

83
00:04:07,630 --> 00:04:09,360
Matt Edmundson: How did
you end up owning a zoo?

84
00:04:10,660 --> 00:04:15,110
Peter Murphy Lewis: I didn't actually
buy it, I, uh, the story's Interesting,

85
00:04:15,110 --> 00:04:21,550
in 2019, I was running a pretty
successful travel online business in

86
00:04:21,550 --> 00:04:25,930
South America and there was some civil
unrest that happened in October of 2019

87
00:04:25,939 --> 00:04:31,250
and it was so powerful that they burned
down 43 subway stations in one night.

88
00:04:31,600 --> 00:04:33,890
And I called my business partner
on day two and I said, you

89
00:04:33,890 --> 00:04:35,160
need to get back to Santiago.

90
00:04:35,160 --> 00:04:36,480
I think we're going to have to close down.

91
00:04:37,065 --> 00:04:40,935
Our four offices in four different cities,
close down all of our brands, sell our

92
00:04:40,935 --> 00:04:43,495
inventory and lay off about 50 teammates.

93
00:04:44,005 --> 00:04:46,315
And he came back and
we made that decision.

94
00:04:46,344 --> 00:04:51,094
And then about three weeks later, my wife
and my son and I, uh, left that country

95
00:04:51,094 --> 00:04:55,905
and moved back to the U S and when I was
backpacking around, around the United

96
00:04:55,905 --> 00:04:59,725
States with my three year old at the
time, I visited the zoo and the owner of

97
00:04:59,725 --> 00:05:03,045
the zoo called me a month later and said,
will you come take over the marketing?

98
00:05:03,495 --> 00:05:05,665
Department for six months
as an interim director.

99
00:05:05,675 --> 00:05:07,955
So I created the marketing
team and helped scale that.

100
00:05:08,895 --> 00:05:09,675
Wow.

101
00:05:09,985 --> 00:05:10,455
Matt Edmundson: Wow.

102
00:05:10,705 --> 00:05:12,205
And that's amazing.

103
00:05:12,205 --> 00:05:12,485
Peter Murphy Lewis: You got to do that.

104
00:05:12,885 --> 00:05:14,154
And they gave me a house.

105
00:05:14,764 --> 00:05:15,044
Well,

106
00:05:15,255 --> 00:05:16,225
Matt Edmundson: thank you very much.

107
00:05:16,315 --> 00:05:17,405
Uh, absolutely.

108
00:05:17,405 --> 00:05:20,594
Uh, that's awesome.

109
00:05:20,595 --> 00:05:22,665
And what amazing memories for your son.

110
00:05:22,985 --> 00:05:25,325
Uh, I mean, that's not especially
in the middle of COVID.

111
00:05:25,815 --> 00:05:26,245
Oh yeah.

112
00:05:26,245 --> 00:05:26,825
Jeez.

113
00:05:27,025 --> 00:05:27,224
Yeah.

114
00:05:27,224 --> 00:05:27,605
Yeah.

115
00:05:27,635 --> 00:05:30,085
I mean, it's not a usual thing to
do as a kid, but that's awesome.

116
00:05:30,565 --> 00:05:31,295
That's really cool.

117
00:05:31,304 --> 00:05:32,746
So you're living at the zoo.

118
00:05:32,746 --> 00:05:33,544
I take it.

119
00:05:34,555 --> 00:05:35,375
Peter Murphy Lewis: Yeah, it's fantastic.

120
00:05:35,375 --> 00:05:39,035
I can't imagine leaving whenever my
wife's like, maybe we should buy a house.

121
00:05:39,035 --> 00:05:41,765
And I said, is the house going
to have zebras in its front yard?

122
00:05:41,765 --> 00:05:43,854
I said, let's hold off on that mortgage.

123
00:05:44,014 --> 00:05:45,065
I'm fine here.

124
00:05:46,784 --> 00:05:47,814
Matt Edmundson: Why do I need to do that?

125
00:05:47,814 --> 00:05:48,834
Why do I need a mortgage?

126
00:05:49,305 --> 00:05:50,304
That's incredible.

127
00:05:50,344 --> 00:05:55,335
So you're sort of split between the
States and between South America.

128
00:05:55,705 --> 00:05:58,445
You're currently in Wichita, Kansas.

129
00:05:58,844 --> 00:06:02,200
Um, and Uh, which is right
in the middle, isn't it?

130
00:06:02,200 --> 00:06:02,810
From memory.

131
00:06:02,930 --> 00:06:04,810
Uh, I've actually been to Wichita.

132
00:06:04,820 --> 00:06:08,050
I have been to Kansas a couple of times,
but I remember seeing it on a map.

133
00:06:08,680 --> 00:06:10,800
Uh, so I've got a sort of
vague idea of where it is.

134
00:06:11,300 --> 00:06:14,730
Um, and so you've obviously been
in marketing a little while.

135
00:06:14,730 --> 00:06:17,390
I mean, you've been marketing zoos
and companies in South America,

136
00:06:17,390 --> 00:06:20,335
so you've You've had a few things
that you've, have you always been

137
00:06:20,335 --> 00:06:21,725
involved in that sort of thing?

138
00:06:22,775 --> 00:06:27,085
Peter Murphy Lewis: You know,
my first company was in 2007 and

139
00:06:27,095 --> 00:06:30,744
my business partner and I didn't
have any previous experience.

140
00:06:30,745 --> 00:06:32,785
I'd never worked in marketing, neither.

141
00:06:32,795 --> 00:06:35,065
So we just kind of fell
into what was natural.

142
00:06:35,075 --> 00:06:37,229
You know, he did the, he did.

143
00:06:37,690 --> 00:06:41,890
The website I created, you know,
kind of the customer journey and

144
00:06:41,960 --> 00:06:45,480
our marketing and our, and our copy
and then our products and so forth.

145
00:06:45,480 --> 00:06:48,330
And then he eventually took over
operations and HR and I stayed in

146
00:06:48,339 --> 00:06:52,970
marketing and sales and, uh, we grew
that quickly, uh, into three different

147
00:06:52,970 --> 00:06:54,420
brands and then kind of got into.

148
00:06:55,294 --> 00:06:58,494
I got into TV and then got
into fractional CMO work.

149
00:06:58,494 --> 00:07:03,205
And since basically this 2007, I kind
of built my career around marketing

150
00:07:03,205 --> 00:07:04,844
with having it without any experience.

151
00:07:04,844 --> 00:07:09,304
And I, I attribute that to the topic
that I think we're going to talk about,

152
00:07:09,304 --> 00:07:11,474
which is understanding your customer.

153
00:07:11,495 --> 00:07:16,205
And that goes back, Matt, to the fact
that I studied sociology in undergrad

154
00:07:16,224 --> 00:07:19,205
and my first job out of college was.

155
00:07:19,495 --> 00:07:26,095
Creating surveys for a national survey, I
believe is around re religion and values.

156
00:07:26,095 --> 00:07:30,385
And so, uh, I wasn't a particularly
religious person, uh, but I had to learn

157
00:07:30,390 --> 00:07:34,615
how to ask questions in semi-structured
interviews to determine how.

158
00:07:35,595 --> 00:07:37,534
belief systems were changing in the U.

159
00:07:37,534 --> 00:07:37,775
S.

160
00:07:37,775 --> 00:07:44,455
and this was 2002, and I really think
that that fundamental kind of, uh,

161
00:07:44,475 --> 00:07:49,035
101 into how to understand how people
think when they don't know how to

162
00:07:49,294 --> 00:07:53,374
say what they think and believe helps
me today in the eCommerce space.

163
00:07:54,085 --> 00:07:54,745
Matt Edmundson: No doubt.

164
00:07:54,775 --> 00:07:58,325
I mean, how old were you when you
were doing those sort of surveys?

165
00:07:58,335 --> 00:07:58,955
So this was 20

166
00:07:58,955 --> 00:07:59,224
Peter Murphy Lewis: years ago.

167
00:07:59,385 --> 00:08:01,085
I was 21, 22.

168
00:08:01,085 --> 00:08:01,395
Yeah.

169
00:08:01,955 --> 00:08:03,695
Matt Edmundson: What an
introduction to sort of that.

170
00:08:03,945 --> 00:08:05,245
I mean, it's interesting, isn't it?

171
00:08:05,245 --> 00:08:09,384
Because you're just, you're a young
lad starting out in the workforce.

172
00:08:09,384 --> 00:08:11,435
The same age as my son, ironically.

173
00:08:12,484 --> 00:08:16,955
And there are certain things that I think
are good things to do at that sort of age.

174
00:08:16,955 --> 00:08:19,475
Sales would be one of them,
but this is all, because you're

175
00:08:19,475 --> 00:08:20,855
learning how to talk to people.

176
00:08:20,855 --> 00:08:22,655
You're learning how to draw
information out of them.

177
00:08:23,325 --> 00:08:27,855
And they're sort of life skills you
don't really get taught, uh, in school.

178
00:08:28,355 --> 00:08:33,995
And so I imagine, um, this was quite,
quite eye opening in a lot of ways?

179
00:08:35,225 --> 00:08:36,705
Peter Murphy Lewis: Very
much so, very much so.

180
00:08:36,705 --> 00:08:43,335
And I think what was, what was eye opening
about it is walking into the job, you

181
00:08:43,344 --> 00:08:47,705
think that coming up with questions is
going to be easy, but coming up with

182
00:08:47,805 --> 00:08:53,545
questions that people Don't know even
how to answer and you then have to

183
00:08:53,545 --> 00:08:59,025
interpret those answers into something
that is close to, uh, qualitative.

184
00:08:59,445 --> 00:09:02,355
All of this evidence that you
could at least form a hypothesis

185
00:09:02,355 --> 00:09:03,365
around was a challenge.

186
00:09:03,584 --> 00:09:07,425
And then my, my, my second job
isn't much further than that.

187
00:09:07,444 --> 00:09:10,635
Although people be like, you know,
that's social work, that social work.

188
00:09:10,745 --> 00:09:13,594
My next job was I worked
with the homeless population.

189
00:09:14,275 --> 00:09:15,324
Speaking Spanish.

190
00:09:15,385 --> 00:09:19,375
So Spanish speaking, homeless
population that had AIDS in Boston.

191
00:09:19,775 --> 00:09:21,145
And I had to.

192
00:09:21,464 --> 00:09:24,175
Help them help themselves.

193
00:09:24,835 --> 00:09:28,435
And so understanding homeless
people is different for me.

194
00:09:28,435 --> 00:09:29,205
I've never been homeless.

195
00:09:29,655 --> 00:09:33,314
Understanding Latino,
illegal, non documented.

196
00:09:33,625 --> 00:09:35,325
Immigrants is not my background.

197
00:09:35,515 --> 00:09:37,035
And then understanding people with AIDS.

198
00:09:37,225 --> 00:09:40,725
So learning how to ask questions
was, you know, kind of the first

199
00:09:40,765 --> 00:09:43,445
three years of my professional
life before I became a marketer.

200
00:09:44,505 --> 00:09:45,764
Matt Edmundson: Wow, what a foundation.

201
00:09:46,175 --> 00:09:49,574
Um, I mean, I sound, they both sound
like pretty tough, hard jobs, but I

202
00:09:49,585 --> 00:09:53,420
mean, almost what a gift, you know,
in terms of Uh, the, the stuff that

203
00:09:53,420 --> 00:09:54,430
you would have learned from that.

204
00:09:54,869 --> 00:09:56,550
So let's fast forward then 20 years.

205
00:09:56,550 --> 00:09:59,759
Let's take all the learning that you've,
you've had and what an introduction,

206
00:10:00,320 --> 00:10:06,909
um, and let's sort of throw this into
the, the topic of eCommerce, um, if

207
00:10:06,909 --> 00:10:10,780
we can, uh, let's start at the top.

208
00:10:10,799 --> 00:10:11,510
Customer journey.

209
00:10:11,510 --> 00:10:14,870
Just explain what it is, what you mean
by that and, and why we should care.

210
00:10:17,369 --> 00:10:22,709
Peter Murphy Lewis: I thought about the
definition before we jumped on, and I

211
00:10:22,729 --> 00:10:27,150
said, should I Google it, or should I
just go with what comes from the gut?

212
00:10:27,189 --> 00:10:30,590
And I didn't Google it, even though
I've never formally been trained.

213
00:10:30,590 --> 00:10:38,410
I said, for me, It's basically the
process where someone comes in touch

214
00:10:38,410 --> 00:10:42,930
with your brand and you follow them from
the first time they hear about you or

215
00:10:42,930 --> 00:10:47,620
they need you or think about you until
they decide they're done with you.

216
00:10:48,080 --> 00:10:52,900
And that may never end if they're a happy
customer, the customer journey never ends.

217
00:10:53,180 --> 00:10:55,600
Um, and it may end really quickly if.

218
00:10:55,760 --> 00:10:57,660
Your first impression is bad.

219
00:10:57,730 --> 00:11:01,510
If you're bad at ads, if you spend all
your money on ads, instead of thinking

220
00:11:01,520 --> 00:11:05,050
about your brand, uh, if you don't
listen to them and they walk away.

221
00:11:05,230 --> 00:11:09,159
So, uh, it's kind of, it's kind of
the first impression until they're

222
00:11:09,169 --> 00:11:12,699
done with you is the way that I
would describe it to like my dad.

223
00:11:14,759 --> 00:11:16,640
Matt Edmundson: That's a
really, it's a very, I mean,

224
00:11:16,650 --> 00:11:17,750
I can get my head around that.

225
00:11:17,750 --> 00:11:19,230
I understand that it's not complex.

226
00:11:19,510 --> 00:11:22,820
And what I like about it, Peter, is
there's no three letter acronyms.

227
00:11:23,160 --> 00:11:26,290
Uh, in the middle of it, which we,
we love in, in eCommerce, really.

228
00:11:26,979 --> 00:11:27,880
Yeah, we overuse those.

229
00:11:28,849 --> 00:11:30,069
That's way too many.

230
00:11:30,650 --> 00:11:35,819
Um, so the customer journey then,
from first impressions until the

231
00:11:35,819 --> 00:11:37,300
grave, fall into a better expression.

232
00:11:37,300 --> 00:11:39,289
That whole time that they spend with you.

233
00:11:39,849 --> 00:11:42,159
Um, and obviously different
customers have different lengths

234
00:11:42,159 --> 00:11:44,859
of journeys with you, different
experiences and so on and so forth.

235
00:11:45,410 --> 00:11:47,689
Uh, and I mean, it's an
obvious statement to make.

236
00:11:48,200 --> 00:11:52,569
Um, and I guess in some respects,
this is a silly question.

237
00:11:52,645 --> 00:11:55,505
But again, I don't want to
make any assumptions here.

238
00:11:55,865 --> 00:11:59,645
Why should I care about that
as an eCommerce entrepreneur?

239
00:11:59,725 --> 00:12:03,895
Surely, and I, I have been
asked this question many times.

240
00:12:03,895 --> 00:12:07,035
There's a reason why I'm asking,
because there is a belief in some

241
00:12:07,035 --> 00:12:09,515
circles where it's just like, I don't
care about the customer journey.

242
00:12:09,524 --> 00:12:11,845
I want them in, I want to sell
them stuff and I want them gone

243
00:12:12,215 --> 00:12:13,665
because it's a high volume business.

244
00:12:13,665 --> 00:12:14,725
You know, the customers come and go.

245
00:12:16,905 --> 00:12:17,545
Peter Murphy Lewis: I think that.

246
00:12:18,115 --> 00:12:24,115
I think that, you know, any founder
or CTO or customer support or VP

247
00:12:24,115 --> 00:12:30,785
of Revenue should care about this
because one, the more advocates you

248
00:12:30,785 --> 00:12:35,395
have of your brand, your product, your
service, the less you spend on ads.

249
00:12:35,884 --> 00:12:37,429
So right away, there's a.

250
00:12:37,520 --> 00:12:40,979
ROI, there's a return on investment
that's just basic understanding.

251
00:12:41,329 --> 00:12:45,660
You can maximize profits, um, even
just with that one person, right?

252
00:12:45,660 --> 00:12:49,979
So if you're paying attention to what
they want more of and what they're

253
00:12:49,979 --> 00:12:56,040
willing to pay more for, you're, you're
making more and you know, like I usually.

254
00:12:57,239 --> 00:13:03,360
Usually the thing that I walk into as a
consultant, the first thing that I see

255
00:13:03,360 --> 00:13:08,479
that's kind of a blind spot for founders
or CEOs or executives, is they haven't

256
00:13:08,510 --> 00:13:10,110
talked to their customer in a long time.

257
00:13:10,159 --> 00:13:12,694
As you grow, you get it.

258
00:13:13,074 --> 00:13:18,865
2, 3, 4, unfortunately, sometimes
five steps or layers away from your

259
00:13:18,865 --> 00:13:23,675
customer and, and people often think
your customer once they've purchased.

260
00:13:23,675 --> 00:13:25,685
So like you wanna see
the survey afterwards.

261
00:13:25,955 --> 00:13:30,245
I'm talking about the survey when that you
asked them how they first heard about you.

262
00:13:30,335 --> 00:13:30,425
Mm-Hmm.

263
00:13:30,670 --> 00:13:34,655
So like I have, I have a, um, a
new client that I'm working with.

264
00:13:34,720 --> 00:13:35,300
today.

265
00:13:35,610 --> 00:13:39,260
And, you know, he says, what's, what's
the first thing that you want to do?

266
00:13:39,280 --> 00:13:40,520
Do you want to interview my team?

267
00:13:40,520 --> 00:13:45,169
Do you want to, you know, look at
my, uh, profit, my profit loss?

268
00:13:45,390 --> 00:13:45,900
I said, no, no, no.

269
00:13:46,090 --> 00:13:50,719
Just every single new customer
you have that purchases, whether

270
00:13:50,720 --> 00:13:53,350
it's their 49 product or their 4.

271
00:13:53,350 --> 00:13:53,830
99 product.

272
00:13:54,130 --> 00:13:58,290
I said, I want, To be on the phone
call and we're going to act like it's

273
00:13:58,290 --> 00:14:01,069
a chargeback service, or we're going
to act like it's a customer support.

274
00:14:01,290 --> 00:14:03,260
And then I just want to ask
them two or three questions.

275
00:14:03,260 --> 00:14:07,069
And then you got to do that every stage
along the way with the person who refunds,

276
00:14:07,100 --> 00:14:08,930
the person who returns and so forth.

277
00:14:08,930 --> 00:14:12,400
And I just think if you set that
system up, um, you're, you're, you're

278
00:14:12,400 --> 00:14:15,260
setting your system, your, your
company up for success in the longterm

279
00:14:15,270 --> 00:14:18,430
after you do it for, you know, the
first three months, I think you can

280
00:14:18,440 --> 00:14:19,810
go back to doing it once a year.

281
00:14:20,655 --> 00:14:23,055
It's not any different than, you know,
I've, I've heard the story that Jeff

282
00:14:23,085 --> 00:14:28,425
Bezos, uh, makes every single customer,
every single employee work one week

283
00:14:28,425 --> 00:14:29,725
out of the year in customer service.

284
00:14:29,734 --> 00:14:31,394
I don't really think it's
any different than that.

285
00:14:31,405 --> 00:14:34,635
You should think about your customer
journey at least once a year.

286
00:14:35,775 --> 00:14:40,355
Matt Edmundson: So I, I couldn't
agree more, um, uh, on the whole

287
00:14:40,385 --> 00:14:42,505
customer journey thing for, for
a number of reasons, which I'm

288
00:14:42,505 --> 00:14:43,515
sure we're going to get into.

289
00:14:44,025 --> 00:14:46,205
Um, I'm intrigued by.

290
00:14:46,895 --> 00:14:48,825
This is your, you're
going into a new company.

291
00:14:48,825 --> 00:14:52,165
Your first response is not to talk to
the staff, it's talk to the customers,

292
00:14:52,165 --> 00:14:53,965
which I, I actually quite like.

293
00:14:54,095 --> 00:14:54,515
That's quite nice.

294
00:14:55,145 --> 00:15:00,505
Um, did I understand it right that
you're doing those calls with the CEO

295
00:15:00,645 --> 00:15:01,975
or you're, you're doing them solo?

296
00:15:03,364 --> 00:15:06,134
Peter Murphy Lewis: If the CEO has
time, I would love to have them join.

297
00:15:06,145 --> 00:15:07,405
Normally they're too busy.

298
00:15:07,415 --> 00:15:10,405
If they're bringing, they're bringing
me in to help with something, you

299
00:15:10,405 --> 00:15:12,755
know, they're either putting out
fires or they're letting people

300
00:15:12,765 --> 00:15:15,235
go or they're trying to scale a
team and they don't have time.

301
00:15:15,255 --> 00:15:16,585
If they will, I would love them to.

302
00:15:16,805 --> 00:15:19,805
But I do record them and then I highlight
those options and I go through their

303
00:15:19,805 --> 00:15:21,495
case studies and do new case studies.

304
00:15:21,724 --> 00:15:24,834
But like right now with this new
client, I'm just doing it essentially

305
00:15:24,834 --> 00:15:28,185
with their, their customer support
rep to make sure that we're not

306
00:15:28,185 --> 00:15:29,564
getting chargebacks and so forth.

307
00:15:30,105 --> 00:15:32,675
Matt Edmundson: Okay, um, what
do you mean by a chargeback?

308
00:15:34,525 --> 00:15:37,375
Peter Murphy Lewis: You know, like, uh,
people who will sign up for the product

309
00:15:37,415 --> 00:15:39,504
and then they'll use it for seven days.

310
00:15:39,565 --> 00:15:44,354
They'll download, uh, free data or
download the service and then, uh,

311
00:15:44,414 --> 00:15:47,995
they'll tell their, their American
Express card, Hey, I didn't pay for this.

312
00:15:47,995 --> 00:15:48,794
I didn't want this.

313
00:15:48,794 --> 00:15:50,075
Or they'll, they'll, they'll fight it.

314
00:15:50,335 --> 00:15:50,724
Matt Edmundson: Yeah.

315
00:15:50,725 --> 00:15:50,880
Yeah.

316
00:15:50,880 --> 00:15:51,034
Yeah.

317
00:15:51,035 --> 00:15:51,395
Okay.

318
00:15:51,444 --> 00:15:51,795
Fair enough.

319
00:15:52,314 --> 00:15:52,944
Um, so.

320
00:15:54,160 --> 00:15:56,420
You're calling new customers.

321
00:15:56,570 --> 00:15:58,480
So you get five new customers that day.

322
00:15:58,480 --> 00:16:00,480
You're on the phone with them,
regardless of what they purchased.

323
00:16:00,480 --> 00:16:02,429
And then you said, you're asking
them two or three questions.

324
00:16:03,069 --> 00:16:05,960
Everybody listening to this has
gone, what are those two or three

325
00:16:05,960 --> 00:16:07,180
questions you're asking them?

326
00:16:08,479 --> 00:16:08,750
Peter Murphy Lewis: Yeah.

327
00:16:08,790 --> 00:16:11,010
So I usually go in.

328
00:16:11,244 --> 00:16:14,295
with a bigger objective.

329
00:16:14,305 --> 00:16:21,715
So I try to ask the executive team, I
said, how certain on a scale of 1 to

330
00:16:21,715 --> 00:16:27,424
100 are you that you are charging the
right price for A product, B product,

331
00:16:27,425 --> 00:16:29,554
C product, you know, D product.

332
00:16:29,915 --> 00:16:34,214
And generally, you know, They'll
say 80 or 90 percent on one, 50

333
00:16:34,214 --> 00:16:37,714
percent um, uh, confident on another.

334
00:16:37,754 --> 00:16:41,354
So I'll go into especially
the products where they aren't

335
00:16:41,354 --> 00:16:46,024
confident and I will assume that
they are undercharging right away.

336
00:16:46,214 --> 00:16:50,759
That there's something that the customer
would be willing to pay 2, 3, 4x.

337
00:16:51,990 --> 00:16:57,240
And so my first questions will seem
pretty basic kind of 101 sociology,

338
00:16:57,260 --> 00:17:00,589
but about my fifth question
is going towards the pricing.

339
00:17:00,599 --> 00:17:05,030
So my first question would be like, you
know, uh, how did you first hear about us?

340
00:17:05,089 --> 00:17:08,170
And then I'll shut up and
don't give them options.

341
00:17:08,189 --> 00:17:12,360
You know, like this is, this is,
this is something that HubSpot

342
00:17:12,730 --> 00:17:14,070
will teach you over and over.

343
00:17:14,240 --> 00:17:18,480
Don't force your new customers to
tell you, um, how they heard about

344
00:17:18,480 --> 00:17:20,079
you so you could put it into an Excel.

345
00:17:20,079 --> 00:17:20,139
Thank you.

346
00:17:20,510 --> 00:17:20,869
Yeah.

347
00:17:20,940 --> 00:17:23,630
Take an open ended answer, and I
do that, and then the next question

348
00:17:23,630 --> 00:17:28,920
is, why did you decide to reach
out, either contact us or buy us?

349
00:17:28,920 --> 00:17:30,080
What was the decision?

350
00:17:30,080 --> 00:17:32,240
What, what, what was
the number one reason?

351
00:17:32,250 --> 00:17:36,090
You have to use the word, what was the
number one reason that you decided to buy?

352
00:17:36,965 --> 00:17:41,465
And then, then from there, it
becomes a lot more, uh, loose ended.

353
00:17:41,475 --> 00:17:45,145
And from there, I'll ask why,
why, why, and what was it about?

354
00:17:45,154 --> 00:17:46,605
How did you hear about that feature?

355
00:17:46,735 --> 00:17:48,464
Um, where did, who do
you compare us against?

356
00:17:48,755 --> 00:17:53,205
But my last question would be like,
What is one thing that's inside of our

357
00:17:53,205 --> 00:17:56,681
product that you've seen so far that
you wish you either, that you wish

358
00:17:56,681 --> 00:18:00,455
you had, or that you wish that it was
better, that would make your job easier?

359
00:18:00,870 --> 00:18:04,410
Um, and then they say, they usually
have something in mind and then

360
00:18:04,410 --> 00:18:07,410
I'll say, how much more would
you be willing to pay for that?

361
00:18:08,610 --> 00:18:09,760
And then they'll tell you right there.

362
00:18:10,490 --> 00:18:11,549
They'll tell you right there.

363
00:18:11,549 --> 00:18:15,189
And then the very next thing you do
is you take that information, you test

364
00:18:15,189 --> 00:18:19,599
it in ads, you test it in cold email,
you test it on your eCom platform, you

365
00:18:19,600 --> 00:18:22,560
create a different name of a product
for the exact same thing, charge the

366
00:18:22,560 --> 00:18:24,000
price, but include that new element.

367
00:18:24,770 --> 00:18:27,190
Now you have also ideas
for tiers for pricing.

368
00:18:27,780 --> 00:18:35,449
So Matt, I, I did this with, with um A
membership client that I have that sells

369
00:18:35,449 --> 00:18:40,699
memberships, uh, annual memberships
for a product that's about $49 a year.

370
00:18:40,699 --> 00:18:44,719
And I walked in and I said, you know,
like your NPS score is through the roof.

371
00:18:44,719 --> 00:18:46,280
Like everybody loves everything.

372
00:18:46,280 --> 00:18:47,570
You're, you're definitely under charge.

373
00:18:47,570 --> 00:18:50,209
He said, no, if you do that, we're
gonna have chart churn, then we're

374
00:18:50,209 --> 00:18:51,709
gonna have people complaining online.

375
00:18:51,739 --> 00:18:52,999
People are gonna complain
on our community.

376
00:18:53,270 --> 00:18:56,899
And I said, now I have this feeling
that, you know, 20% of your customers.

377
00:18:57,270 --> 00:18:59,370
10 percent of your customers
be willing to pay more.

378
00:18:59,570 --> 00:19:01,770
We did this process that
I'm explaining with you.

379
00:19:01,990 --> 00:19:07,809
Then we, we did it with about 20
calls, 15 calls, and then we turned

380
00:19:07,810 --> 00:19:11,820
it into a survey on Google forms.

381
00:19:11,820 --> 00:19:13,600
We didn't have to pay
for anything expensive.

382
00:19:13,600 --> 00:19:14,369
We didn't go type form.

383
00:19:14,370 --> 00:19:17,799
We just did simple Google forms
following the exact same system.

384
00:19:17,800 --> 00:19:24,149
And now we have a VIP subscription
service that sells for 299.

385
00:19:24,649 --> 00:19:28,260
One day out of the year, and it sells out.

386
00:19:28,990 --> 00:19:29,490
Wow.

387
00:19:30,400 --> 00:19:33,410
And those were people that
we were charging 49 for two,

388
00:19:33,620 --> 00:19:34,529
you know, two years ago.

389
00:19:35,620 --> 00:19:36,780
Matt Edmundson: That's
incredible, isn't it?

390
00:19:37,349 --> 00:19:39,740
So this is 299.

391
00:19:39,740 --> 00:19:43,459
So you've six, six fold increase on
the price just because you called

392
00:19:43,460 --> 00:19:44,880
the customers and ask questions.

393
00:19:45,300 --> 00:19:47,870
And I assume that the difference
between the two memberships was

394
00:19:47,870 --> 00:19:49,230
pretty straightforward to deliver.

395
00:19:50,804 --> 00:19:53,225
Peter Murphy Lewis: Other deliverability
is essentially the same because,

396
00:19:53,235 --> 00:19:56,415
especially because about 50 percent of the
people don't even use their membership.

397
00:19:56,715 --> 00:19:58,804
They don't log in, they
don't ask for calls.

398
00:19:59,044 --> 00:20:04,254
So I mean, you just, you just went
from 49 to 299 and still half your

399
00:20:04,264 --> 00:20:05,374
people don't use your product.

400
00:20:06,805 --> 00:20:07,264
Matt Edmundson: Wow.

401
00:20:07,355 --> 00:20:08,254
That's incredible.

402
00:20:08,495 --> 00:20:09,045
Yeah.

403
00:20:09,095 --> 00:20:09,515
Fascinating.

404
00:20:09,835 --> 00:20:12,655
And all this stems because you asked the
customer the question rather than just

405
00:20:12,655 --> 00:20:18,425
assuming, um, or rather, I think one of
the cop outs that I guess I see a lot,

406
00:20:18,595 --> 00:20:26,885
um, at the moment is There's a lot of
conversation about interpreting data,

407
00:20:27,185 --> 00:20:28,905
right, letting data guide decisions.

408
00:20:28,915 --> 00:20:31,035
So you split test, you let
data to guide decisions.

409
00:20:31,045 --> 00:20:33,215
So you start off with a
hypothesis, you throw it out there.

410
00:20:33,535 --> 00:20:34,384
Did A beat B?

411
00:20:34,385 --> 00:20:34,985
Yes or no?

412
00:20:35,175 --> 00:20:36,544
Uh, if it did, great, let's run it.

413
00:20:36,545 --> 00:20:37,835
If it didn't, let's keep what we've got.

414
00:20:38,965 --> 00:20:45,424
And we like that because one,
it's  quantitative, um, yeah,

415
00:20:45,424 --> 00:20:46,761
it's not working, is it?

416
00:20:46,761 --> 00:20:51,944
Um, And two, I think it requires, in
some respects, less effort because

417
00:20:51,944 --> 00:20:53,475
I don't have to talk to the client.

418
00:20:53,485 --> 00:20:55,824
I think a lot of people get into
eCommerce so they don't actually

419
00:20:55,824 --> 00:20:57,005
have to talk to the end client.

420
00:20:57,645 --> 00:20:58,025
I agree

421
00:20:58,025 --> 00:20:58,464
Peter Murphy Lewis: 100%.

422
00:20:58,784 --> 00:21:01,344
Matt Edmundson: Yeah, so here you are
telling people to talk to the end client.

423
00:21:01,344 --> 00:21:03,495
I just wonder how many people listening
to this show are just breaking

424
00:21:03,495 --> 00:21:04,974
out into a cold sweat right now.

425
00:21:05,375 --> 00:21:09,085
But there's, there's some very
real benefits to doing that.

426
00:21:09,645 --> 00:21:12,055
One of which you've just highlighted
with that membership company.

427
00:21:13,554 --> 00:21:15,045
Peter Murphy Lewis: I would
tell them if they're terrified

428
00:21:15,045 --> 00:21:16,065
of doing that, don't worry.

429
00:21:16,445 --> 00:21:21,514
Call a 20 year old sociologist
who's taken two years of sociology

430
00:21:21,514 --> 00:21:25,114
classes and they can listen to this,
transcribe it and do it for you.

431
00:21:28,794 --> 00:21:29,655
Matt Edmundson: Go get a student.

432
00:21:30,024 --> 00:21:32,524
That's, uh, that's what we tend to say.

433
00:21:32,775 --> 00:21:34,114
We say that a lot in our office.

434
00:21:34,384 --> 00:21:35,045
We need someone to do this.

435
00:21:35,045 --> 00:21:35,975
I was going to go get a student.

436
00:21:35,975 --> 00:21:37,094
We live in a student town.

437
00:21:37,094 --> 00:21:41,624
So, um, students are great, you know, and,
uh, well, most of the time they're great.

438
00:21:42,025 --> 00:21:45,625
Um, so I'd like to go get a 20
year old sociologist student.

439
00:21:46,455 --> 00:21:50,205
Is this, so let's take a few different
companies and let's think about

440
00:21:50,205 --> 00:21:51,484
how this could work practically.

441
00:21:51,665 --> 00:21:55,654
Um, Peter, so the companies you are
going into, like that membership company

442
00:21:55,654 --> 00:21:59,524
are gonna be what I would call an SMB,
a small, medium sized business, right?

443
00:21:59,524 --> 00:22:02,375
They're gonna have anywhere,
I guess from five to 20

444
00:22:02,375 --> 00:22:03,935
employees, something around that.

445
00:22:03,935 --> 00:22:05,045
They're gonna be turning over.

446
00:22:05,435 --> 00:22:08,185
I guess half a million up to sort
of five million online, right?

447
00:22:08,194 --> 00:22:13,594
So, um, in those size companies,
you're, you're talking to and you're

448
00:22:13,604 --> 00:22:15,695
training the customer service staff.

449
00:22:15,705 --> 00:22:16,304
Is that right?

450
00:22:17,904 --> 00:22:19,344
Peter Murphy Lewis: I'm
not really training.

451
00:22:19,364 --> 00:22:21,494
I'm just joining the first
phone calls with them.

452
00:22:21,494 --> 00:22:24,874
And then I'm taking that information,
which is very qualitative, right?

453
00:22:24,874 --> 00:22:27,104
Like I couldn't prove anything on it.

454
00:22:27,104 --> 00:22:28,864
I couldn't write a master's thesis on it.

455
00:22:29,114 --> 00:22:33,105
But If, if you're intuitive, if you have
some emotional intelligence, you can take

456
00:22:33,105 --> 00:22:37,734
that information and take it back to the
CEO and say, some changes need to be done.

457
00:22:37,745 --> 00:22:42,549
Like if you take to him 10 calls
where five of them say, Hey, You

458
00:22:42,549 --> 00:22:48,319
know, I would pay 3x for this feature
and then you say to him, then you

459
00:22:48,319 --> 00:22:51,770
say to him, like, um, how hard is
it for you to deliver this feature?

460
00:22:51,770 --> 00:22:53,129
And he goes, not hard at all.

461
00:22:53,270 --> 00:22:55,109
Well, now you got his attention, right?

462
00:22:55,219 --> 00:23:00,409
So, and then customer service is, can
then be trained to take that, you know,

463
00:23:00,409 --> 00:23:05,219
that initial process into something that
could be checked quarterly, um, or once

464
00:23:05,219 --> 00:23:10,000
a year type of thing, but you've run from
there and then you start designing new.

465
00:23:10,275 --> 00:23:13,875
Prices and programming around
that initial customer journey.

466
00:23:13,875 --> 00:23:16,455
And then you go back and, and you
go back and you check it again.

467
00:23:17,364 --> 00:23:17,784
Matt Edmundson: Okay.

468
00:23:18,085 --> 00:23:24,264
Um, so let's talk about
then the small business.

469
00:23:24,295 --> 00:23:30,145
So what, a couple of the young married
couple, they're doing a side hustle,

470
00:23:30,145 --> 00:23:31,404
they're working on the kitchen table.

471
00:23:32,355 --> 00:23:34,835
Two hours of an evening before
they crash out on the couch.

472
00:23:35,395 --> 00:23:41,415
Um, how, how would you, how, how should
they approach this type of thing?

473
00:23:42,764 --> 00:23:43,125
I would,

474
00:23:43,415 --> 00:23:46,914
Peter Murphy Lewis: I would start off
if they don't have much time, I would

475
00:23:46,915 --> 00:23:54,594
start off by asking them, Do you have
an idea when you have A happy customer,

476
00:23:54,645 --> 00:23:59,074
a happy buyer, um, over your unhappy
customers, either they were on your

477
00:23:59,074 --> 00:24:03,094
page for 10 minutes and they purchased
right away, or they added two things

478
00:24:03,094 --> 00:24:05,074
to their cart faster than anybody else.

479
00:24:05,085 --> 00:24:08,514
And everyone has kind of like, yeah,
I think that is, I said, okay, are

480
00:24:08,514 --> 00:24:13,349
you, then are you willing to give them
half of that product back if they'll

481
00:24:13,349 --> 00:24:15,464
spend 20 minutes with you on the phone?

482
00:24:15,969 --> 00:24:16,350
Yeah, of course.

483
00:24:16,389 --> 00:24:20,000
If that information is going to
help you sell more, you know, either

484
00:24:20,000 --> 00:24:23,139
sell more volume, improve your
margins, whatever that is, increase

485
00:24:23,139 --> 00:24:24,239
your revenue, whatever it is.

486
00:24:24,580 --> 00:24:26,319
And I would just start with that.

487
00:24:26,350 --> 00:24:31,560
If they have two hours on a Thursday
and two hours on a Sunday, do two calls.

488
00:24:31,944 --> 00:24:35,484
And give that person something back that
they put in their cart and try to figure

489
00:24:35,484 --> 00:24:39,935
out why that person is hyper happy and
why they came to you and then find a way

490
00:24:39,935 --> 00:24:45,344
to uniquely, creatively ask them what
they would be willing to pay more for.

491
00:24:45,435 --> 00:24:47,335
Of course, those first questions, right?

492
00:24:47,505 --> 00:24:48,645
How did they hear about you?

493
00:24:48,714 --> 00:24:49,875
Why did they choose you?

494
00:24:49,894 --> 00:24:51,324
Who else did they shop around with?

495
00:24:51,344 --> 00:24:53,424
How were they solving the
problem before they met you?

496
00:24:54,084 --> 00:24:56,804
Matt Edmundson: Yeah, no,
it's very critical questions.

497
00:24:58,449 --> 00:25:00,469
Peter Murphy Lewis: I've got one
other thing that, and this might

498
00:25:00,469 --> 00:25:04,080
not apply, you know, to your
neck of the woods, nor the U.

499
00:25:04,080 --> 00:25:08,939
S., um, because Starbucks has been around
long enough that we might not remember

500
00:25:08,949 --> 00:25:10,920
what life was like before Starbucks.

501
00:25:11,460 --> 00:25:15,690
But myself, coming from South America,
when I first moved to South America

502
00:25:15,699 --> 00:25:17,759
in 2023, there was no Starbucks.

503
00:25:18,190 --> 00:25:22,659
So I lived in a world where I went and
sat at a coffee shop, sat down at a

504
00:25:22,659 --> 00:25:27,280
table, Someone brought a menu over to
me, then left me for 15 minutes, came

505
00:25:27,280 --> 00:25:30,449
back over, asked me what I wanted, then
brought me back a coffee in 15 minutes.

506
00:25:30,770 --> 00:25:34,849
Never knew my name,
charged me 4 for a coffee.

507
00:25:35,210 --> 00:25:39,449
And that, and it took me
30 minutes and it was loud.

508
00:25:39,449 --> 00:25:42,069
And there were people smoking
around, the bathrooms weren't clean.

509
00:25:42,689 --> 00:25:45,419
Starbucks, people complain about paying.

510
00:25:45,660 --> 00:25:51,169
The 4 for a cup of water, a hot cup of
water, but from what I think they did from

511
00:25:51,169 --> 00:25:55,830
the customer journey point of view is they
thought about what is the most expensive

512
00:25:56,589 --> 00:26:00,089
ongoing cost that a coffee shop has.

513
00:26:01,309 --> 00:26:02,769
And it's their real estate.

514
00:26:02,830 --> 00:26:05,710
People are sitting down and
waiting for their coffee to

515
00:26:05,710 --> 00:26:07,359
be delivered for 30 minutes.

516
00:26:07,620 --> 00:26:11,880
And they've removed that and they
make you go stand at a counter and

517
00:26:11,880 --> 00:26:14,739
then they, and you're still willing
to pay the same amount of money.

518
00:26:15,275 --> 00:26:21,174
So you also need to ask in your question,
what is the one thing that you least

519
00:26:21,205 --> 00:26:25,514
care about in my service or my product
that I'm giving you and determine

520
00:26:25,514 --> 00:26:27,924
how expensive it is and remove it.

521
00:26:28,134 --> 00:26:31,074
This is not just about adding
things on in the customer service.

522
00:26:31,074 --> 00:26:32,465
This is also removing.

523
00:26:35,514 --> 00:26:37,705
Matt Edmundson: That's really
interesting because you're right.

524
00:26:37,705 --> 00:26:41,574
I think it's not like you say, it's
not just about what you add, it's

525
00:26:41,574 --> 00:26:42,884
what you can take away, isn't it?

526
00:26:42,935 --> 00:26:43,534
And what you.

527
00:26:44,074 --> 00:26:47,824
Um, what you're doing that
currently is not working.

528
00:26:48,214 --> 00:26:51,505
I think I've mentioned this before on EP,
I've definitely mentioned it on podcast

529
00:26:51,514 --> 00:26:56,194
before, and I've been on so many, I just
can't remember who I've told this to.

530
00:26:56,194 --> 00:26:59,444
So if you're, if I'm repeating myself,
dear listeners, I'm terribly sorry.

531
00:26:59,915 --> 00:27:05,879
Um, but I'm, I'm thinking of the The time
when we had a, at the time we had a beauty

532
00:27:05,879 --> 00:27:14,319
company and we sold beauty products,
well known branded beauty products.

533
00:27:14,330 --> 00:27:17,319
And we, we looked at what our
competitors were doing and they would

534
00:27:17,319 --> 00:27:20,299
send out the products in a jiffy bag.

535
00:27:21,030 --> 00:27:23,949
A padded envelope, I don't know if you
call them Jiffy Bags, we call them Jiffy

536
00:27:23,960 --> 00:27:27,850
Bags, but um, in these sort of padded
envelopes, they got, they got sent out.

537
00:27:29,060 --> 00:27:30,739
And so we were like, well,
let's just do one better.

538
00:27:30,739 --> 00:27:34,169
Let's send everything out in an actual
box so that, you know, it just feels

539
00:27:34,170 --> 00:27:38,539
a bit more ostentatious, I suppose,
a bit more premium, a bit more, uh,

540
00:27:38,619 --> 00:27:40,059
you know, like I've, I've cared.

541
00:27:40,059 --> 00:27:42,290
And actually when you get
your skincare products.

542
00:27:43,315 --> 00:27:47,025
The boxes themselves that they come in
are much more likely not to get bashed up.

543
00:27:47,085 --> 00:27:49,105
Even though I know you're going to
take them out of the box and just

544
00:27:49,105 --> 00:27:52,114
throw them straight in the bin, you
still want them to look good before

545
00:27:52,114 --> 00:27:53,315
you throw them in the bin, right?

546
00:27:53,875 --> 00:27:55,214
And so we sent them out in the box.

547
00:27:55,214 --> 00:27:57,435
That was one of our sort
of differentiation points.

548
00:27:58,065 --> 00:27:59,684
And then we started talking to clients.

549
00:28:00,889 --> 00:28:05,029
And we started asking them
about why they bought skincare.

550
00:28:05,120 --> 00:28:05,359
Why?

551
00:28:05,569 --> 00:28:09,150
Because the, the average order
on our website was let, let's

552
00:28:09,150 --> 00:28:10,440
say it was about 80 books, right?

553
00:28:10,440 --> 00:28:12,600
About $80, 80, 90, maybe $90.

554
00:28:13,040 --> 00:28:14,750
Um, it was about $90.

555
00:28:14,870 --> 00:28:16,480
Um, and.

556
00:28:18,124 --> 00:28:22,245
I was kind of curious as to why people
would be willing to spend that much money

557
00:28:22,284 --> 00:28:24,455
on a moisturizer and a cleanser, right?

558
00:28:24,484 --> 00:28:30,254
And you understand I come from a very male
sort of background that I'm, I'm upset if

559
00:28:30,254 --> 00:28:32,145
I spent two quid on a bar of soap, right?

560
00:28:32,145 --> 00:28:34,685
Let alone 80 bucks on a
moisturizer and cleanser.

561
00:28:35,444 --> 00:28:40,275
And so, I was very, very curious and
the more we talked to customers, the

562
00:28:40,275 --> 00:28:44,444
more we understood actually what they
were buying was a treat for themselves.

563
00:28:44,444 --> 00:28:48,144
They were, they were buying
themselves a gift, um, and this

564
00:28:48,145 --> 00:28:49,704
is how they saw their purchase.

565
00:28:49,704 --> 00:28:53,694
It was like, this is, it's good
for me, I'm treating myself.

566
00:28:53,714 --> 00:28:56,074
These were the kind of words
that we, we were hearing.

567
00:28:56,745 --> 00:29:00,225
And so what we did was we thought
we need to change our packaging

568
00:29:00,225 --> 00:29:01,955
because our, our brown box.

569
00:29:02,594 --> 00:29:05,435
Although it was better than our
competitors, it was still a brown box,

570
00:29:05,435 --> 00:29:08,664
and no one wants a gift in a brown box,
and when you open it, you get those sort

571
00:29:08,664 --> 00:29:13,464
of plastic bubbles, and we, um, and we
thought, everyone's getting, we should

572
00:29:13,475 --> 00:29:16,434
definitely be more environmentally
conscious than we are at the time, so

573
00:29:16,434 --> 00:29:20,294
we needed to up our game, clients wanted
us to be more, um, environmentally

574
00:29:20,294 --> 00:29:23,114
conscious, and so we're like, right,
let's kill two birds with one stone.

575
00:29:24,635 --> 00:29:29,680
And so what we did was we changed the box
from being a standard box to Um, it had an

576
00:29:29,680 --> 00:29:33,550
extra flap on it if you, if you can kind
of, you had to take, lift one flap up and

577
00:29:33,550 --> 00:29:35,240
then the inside flap would also come up.

578
00:29:35,610 --> 00:29:38,250
But on this inside flap, we
wrote this lovely message.

579
00:29:38,250 --> 00:29:42,830
We had it printed on there, just dextol in
the virtues of being human, for example.

580
00:29:43,560 --> 00:29:47,910
Um, and as they opened one, it felt
like they were unwrapping something.

581
00:29:48,140 --> 00:29:48,810
Did you see what I mean?

582
00:29:48,810 --> 00:29:50,380
It was just a simple thing that we did.

583
00:29:51,020 --> 00:29:54,220
We then wrapped the entire
thing inside in tissue paper.

584
00:29:54,220 --> 00:29:57,650
So there was some nice tissue paper
inside that you had to unwrap as well.

585
00:29:58,290 --> 00:30:02,830
And then we took out the plastic bubbles
and we, we actually We tried different

586
00:30:02,840 --> 00:30:06,550
things in there, but the thing that
we sort of settled on was popcorn.

587
00:30:06,640 --> 00:30:09,840
We had this brainwave one day that
we put popcorn in as packaging,

588
00:30:10,800 --> 00:30:14,720
and we tried 20 different types
of popcorn, but we figured it out.

589
00:30:14,720 --> 00:30:18,510
We had popcorn machines in the warehouse
going 10 to the dozen, you know, making

590
00:30:18,510 --> 00:30:25,420
popcorn, and our return purchase rate
shot through the roof when we did this.

591
00:30:25,740 --> 00:30:29,605
And when you think about what I
did, I put a flap on a box, added a

592
00:30:29,605 --> 00:30:33,485
bit of tissue paper, and I changed
the plastic bubbles to popcorn.

593
00:30:33,935 --> 00:30:38,265
But our return purchase rate, I mean,
it went way higher than the industry

594
00:30:38,265 --> 00:30:44,335
average, just from understanding, um,
that the customers were buying a gift.

595
00:30:44,335 --> 00:30:47,085
So we took away something, we
replaced it with something else,

596
00:30:47,095 --> 00:30:50,375
which matched their values, and lo and
behold, it worked really well for us.

597
00:30:53,380 --> 00:30:58,060
Peter Murphy Lewis: I, I like, I
like the example, I like the example

598
00:30:58,100 --> 00:31:03,570
because it required, uh, some testing.

599
00:31:03,630 --> 00:31:09,110
I'm wondering, did you get that just
from you guys playing around with it, or

600
00:31:09,110 --> 00:31:10,580
did you get it from talking to somebody?

601
00:31:11,340 --> 00:31:12,940
Matt Edmundson: No, we
talked to a lot of customers.

602
00:31:12,960 --> 00:31:17,325
I mean, the popcorn came The popcorn
idea was not a customer generated idea.

603
00:31:17,325 --> 00:31:21,595
That was, um, that came from a
brainstorming session I was leading

604
00:31:21,595 --> 00:31:24,775
with the team when we were like,
what can we use as an alternative?

605
00:31:25,425 --> 00:31:28,225
What came from the customers talking
to them was not the tissue paper or

606
00:31:28,225 --> 00:31:33,145
the extra flap on the box, was our
understanding changed in terms of

607
00:31:33,195 --> 00:31:36,295
we understood a lot better why they
were buying what they were buying.

608
00:31:36,630 --> 00:31:41,790
Um, and it was this use of words, gift
and treat, uh, treating myself, I'm

609
00:31:41,800 --> 00:31:44,680
buying a gift for myself, spoiling
myself, you know, those kind of

610
00:31:44,680 --> 00:31:48,320
phrases that I would never have got
had we not spoke to the customer.

611
00:31:50,810 --> 00:31:55,450
Peter Murphy Lewis: That makes me
think of, um, How I think about adding

612
00:31:55,460 --> 00:31:59,640
things or taking things away when,
whenever I'm looking at either Google,

613
00:31:59,640 --> 00:32:05,420
my business reviews for a restaurant or
some type of service and or Amazon, I

614
00:32:05,470 --> 00:32:08,950
always look at the reviews and I look
at the categories because Google and

615
00:32:08,950 --> 00:32:11,990
Amazon group reviews into categories.

616
00:32:11,990 --> 00:32:16,040
So let's say, you know, you know,
you're buying a beard cream.

617
00:32:16,190 --> 00:32:19,050
Well, it groups all of those
reviews together and it

618
00:32:19,050 --> 00:32:23,970
says, you know, um, breaks.

619
00:32:24,175 --> 00:32:28,105
Well, it might say that the bottle
doesn't break or that it's firm or that

620
00:32:28,255 --> 00:32:30,175
the shoe fits too big, it's too large.

621
00:32:30,465 --> 00:32:34,205
So I always pay attention to those
categories and you can think about

622
00:32:34,335 --> 00:32:37,005
what you're focusing on from a
branding point of view by the

623
00:32:37,005 --> 00:32:38,955
number of reviews in that category.

624
00:32:38,975 --> 00:32:42,065
Think of those categories, come up
with synonyms around with it and

625
00:32:42,065 --> 00:32:43,415
then package it in different ways.

626
00:32:43,545 --> 00:32:45,445
That'll also tell you what
you can take away, right?

627
00:32:45,465 --> 00:32:48,595
Like let's say that the most expensive
thing that you have in your beauty

628
00:32:48,595 --> 00:32:51,735
product, Matt, is the packaging.

629
00:32:52,140 --> 00:32:55,700
And none of your reviews, you
know, you got 5, 000 reviews

630
00:32:55,720 --> 00:32:56,960
and none of them say packaging.

631
00:32:56,990 --> 00:33:00,020
Well, then you need to think, well,
maybe I need to do something a

632
00:33:00,020 --> 00:33:02,900
little bit more in depth because my
packaging is really expensive and it's

633
00:33:02,950 --> 00:33:04,370
not shown up in any of my reviews.

634
00:33:04,580 --> 00:33:04,940
Matt Edmundson: Yeah.

635
00:33:05,650 --> 00:33:06,000
Yeah.

636
00:33:06,000 --> 00:33:07,270
That's an interesting point, isn't it?

637
00:33:07,270 --> 00:33:07,360
Yeah.

638
00:33:07,540 --> 00:33:11,730
You reminded me of a chat we've had
on the podcast, Norm, uh, who, Norm

639
00:33:11,730 --> 00:33:13,160
Farrar, we were talking about Amazon.

640
00:33:13,160 --> 00:33:16,290
And one of the things that he
does is he goes through the

641
00:33:16,300 --> 00:33:17,880
Amazon reviews for a product.

642
00:33:17,880 --> 00:33:20,280
And I think he gave the example
from memory of a kitchen knife.

643
00:33:21,360 --> 00:33:25,030
Uh, you know, like a chef's knife and
he was like, you know, you could go on

644
00:33:25,030 --> 00:33:27,640
there and find one for like 20, 30 bucks.

645
00:33:27,670 --> 00:33:28,510
Look at the reviews.

646
00:33:28,510 --> 00:33:29,800
Look at what people are saying.

647
00:33:30,250 --> 00:33:31,540
Look at what's missing.

648
00:33:31,930 --> 00:33:34,450
Look at how you can improve the
product based on the reviews.

649
00:33:34,750 --> 00:33:37,630
He'll go then and get a knife
manufactured, adding the.

650
00:33:38,070 --> 00:33:41,010
The bits in the reviews and taking the
bits away that they're complaining about

651
00:33:41,010 --> 00:33:44,580
in the reviews, he'll put it on Amazon
for 130 bucks and they'll clean up.

652
00:33:44,670 --> 00:33:45,000
Right.

653
00:33:45,480 --> 00:33:49,110
Uh, and that's his whole thinking is, is
sort of going through the reviews like

654
00:33:49,115 --> 00:33:52,110
that and just taking that data, throwing
a product on and seeing what happens.

655
00:33:54,590 --> 00:33:54,920
Yeah.

656
00:33:55,010 --> 00:33:55,520
Clever, isn't it?

657
00:33:55,520 --> 00:33:56,420
In a, in a lot of ways.

658
00:33:56,425 --> 00:33:56,455
Yeah.

659
00:33:57,140 --> 00:34:01,775
So we've got some, you've given
us some great questions to ask.

660
00:34:02,155 --> 00:34:02,375
Uh.

661
00:34:03,810 --> 00:34:08,990
People, um, what sort of workflow
should we be thinking about, you know,

662
00:34:09,060 --> 00:34:12,790
and what sort of system, I think you
use the word system when we, when you

663
00:34:12,790 --> 00:34:15,590
started talking about this, what sort
of system should we be thinking about

664
00:34:15,590 --> 00:34:17,440
as a company setting up here to help us?

665
00:34:17,980 --> 00:34:20,270
Do this, do it well,
and do it continually.

666
00:34:21,410 --> 00:34:25,090
Peter Murphy Lewis: I would say if
you're, you know, a mom and pop company

667
00:34:25,310 --> 00:34:31,530
that has at least a thousand dollars
a month coming in, that you need to

668
00:34:31,550 --> 00:34:35,930
think about what your objective is and
what is your anti objective, right?

669
00:34:35,940 --> 00:34:40,170
So if your objective is revenue, what's
your, what's the worst thing that

670
00:34:40,170 --> 00:34:41,950
could happen if you get that objective?

671
00:34:42,090 --> 00:34:45,400
You know, your review average goes
down, you quit getting positive

672
00:34:45,400 --> 00:34:47,850
reviews, and then you need to create.

673
00:34:47,975 --> 00:34:53,445
A semi structured interview process
in that customer journey for you

674
00:34:53,445 --> 00:34:56,145
to determine how you're going
to get to that objective without

675
00:34:56,145 --> 00:34:58,785
actually doing the opposite as well.

676
00:34:59,250 --> 00:34:59,540
Right?

677
00:34:59,680 --> 00:35:00,440
That's where I would start.

678
00:35:00,470 --> 00:35:06,150
If you're a successful eCommerce business,
you know, and you're doing half a million

679
00:35:06,150 --> 00:35:11,010
and you're, you're profitable, um, I think
you, this is even easier for you to do.

680
00:35:11,020 --> 00:35:13,480
You can, you're going to get
information more quickly.

681
00:35:13,630 --> 00:35:16,000
Your customer journey is
much more sophisticated.

682
00:35:16,010 --> 00:35:18,190
You have the analytics, you
have the Google analytics, you

683
00:35:18,190 --> 00:35:19,780
have the paid analytics, right?

684
00:35:19,780 --> 00:35:23,480
You have the review analytics, and
then you just as an executive or

685
00:35:23,480 --> 00:35:27,140
the owner, you need to come in and
you need to get your hands dirty.

686
00:35:27,140 --> 00:35:27,154
Yeah.

687
00:35:27,635 --> 00:35:33,945
for a week and build out the build out
the process before you jump in, right,

688
00:35:33,945 --> 00:35:40,340
which is related to the objective
when I, I, I, I write about customer

689
00:35:40,340 --> 00:35:43,480
journey and I talk about customer
journey enough at conventions and

690
00:35:43,490 --> 00:35:46,880
so forth, people will reach out to
me and they'll send me their survey.

691
00:35:47,690 --> 00:35:52,160
And, um, and the very first thing
I'll say is what is your goal?

692
00:35:52,350 --> 00:35:57,260
And they haven't prepared their semi
structured survey with a goal in mind.

693
00:35:57,430 --> 00:35:59,270
They've asked a bunch of
questions that they can already

694
00:35:59,270 --> 00:36:00,540
get from their existing data.

695
00:36:00,790 --> 00:36:03,730
Like, uh, are you a happy customer?

696
00:36:03,730 --> 00:36:05,750
Well, I can tell from my churn data.

697
00:36:05,870 --> 00:36:06,990
Don't waste a question.

698
00:36:07,000 --> 00:36:08,970
Are you a happy data customer?

699
00:36:08,970 --> 00:36:09,230
Right?

700
00:36:09,480 --> 00:36:12,920
Don't ask if on a scale of one to 10,
how likely are you going to recommend?

701
00:36:13,160 --> 00:36:14,970
Like use that for a
different moment, right?

702
00:36:14,970 --> 00:36:17,280
You only have a couple,
couple questions to get to it.

703
00:36:17,540 --> 00:36:21,420
Then once you have fine tuned that,
that process, now you need to turn it

704
00:36:21,420 --> 00:36:25,780
into something that you do at least
once a year, almost like an NPS review.

705
00:36:26,740 --> 00:36:30,060
Matt Edmundson: So this is not something
you're doing all the time or the team

706
00:36:30,090 --> 00:36:31,650
aren't doing this on a regular basis.

707
00:36:31,650 --> 00:36:36,190
It's just like what one week out of the
year, I'm just calling 20, 30 people.

708
00:36:37,105 --> 00:36:37,675
That's what I would

709
00:36:37,675 --> 00:36:39,435
Peter Murphy Lewis: do and I would
mainly think about it when you have

710
00:36:39,435 --> 00:36:44,025
a, uh, when you think that a product
is either underperforming or that

711
00:36:44,065 --> 00:36:48,755
you have a new goal and you're not
certain about how to do it, right?

712
00:36:48,755 --> 00:36:52,985
So if you have a new goal around
a new territory or about, uh,

713
00:36:53,385 --> 00:36:56,745
modifying your product or lowering
your prices or whatever it is,

714
00:36:57,075 --> 00:36:58,665
you need to talk to people first.

715
00:36:58,665 --> 00:37:02,005
You need to get over that, that
the fear factor, the analysis

716
00:37:02,025 --> 00:37:05,045
paralysis of too much data, not
enough data, just go to the person.

717
00:37:05,485 --> 00:37:07,045
But the key is the questions, right?

718
00:37:07,045 --> 00:37:10,925
But I mean, I feel like there's
enough out there on Google that

719
00:37:11,305 --> 00:37:14,155
you can dissect what to do and
what not to do based on what we've

720
00:37:14,155 --> 00:37:15,245
Matt Edmundson: been chatting about today.

721
00:37:15,325 --> 00:37:16,135
Yeah, totally.

722
00:37:16,155 --> 00:37:18,145
And ChatGPT will write
them for you, to be fair.

723
00:37:19,665 --> 00:37:23,415
I'm intrigued here, actually,
because one of my eCommerce companies

724
00:37:23,415 --> 00:37:24,880
is a supplement company, right?

725
00:37:24,880 --> 00:37:26,085
A health supplement company.

726
00:37:27,920 --> 00:37:33,130
We have been talking internally about the
packaging that the supplements come in,

727
00:37:33,710 --> 00:37:39,380
okay, and changing that packaging because
like everybody we're trying to be more.

728
00:37:39,835 --> 00:37:43,635
Um, uh, environmentally sustainable.

729
00:37:43,965 --> 00:37:46,125
We're thinking about the
environment a lot more now.

730
00:37:46,125 --> 00:37:50,475
The packaging we have is very good
in the sense that it is, um, it's

731
00:37:50,475 --> 00:37:54,045
sort of like a plastic type product
made from cane sugar, which makes

732
00:37:54,045 --> 00:37:56,055
it biodegradable in about 10 years.

733
00:37:56,475 --> 00:37:57,435
So it's actually quite good.

734
00:37:57,435 --> 00:37:58,455
It's also recyclable.

735
00:37:59,220 --> 00:38:02,900
Um, so the packaging in itself has got
some good credentials and I think we tell

736
00:38:02,900 --> 00:38:08,120
the story well on the website, but when
you look at a picture of it, it still

737
00:38:08,120 --> 00:38:10,960
looks like white plastic and we're kind
of thinking, do we want to change it?

738
00:38:11,390 --> 00:38:14,870
So I've thought about glass,
for example, and the guys in the

739
00:38:14,870 --> 00:38:17,490
fulfillment warehouse are like,
there's no way we're sending stuff

740
00:38:17,490 --> 00:38:20,560
out in glass because it's a nightmare
internationally, et cetera, et cetera.

741
00:38:20,610 --> 00:38:23,750
So there's all kinds of things
going on and we've been batting

742
00:38:23,770 --> 00:38:27,260
around tins and refill pouches and
all kinds of things in the office.

743
00:38:28,120 --> 00:38:30,280
What I'm thinking here,
listening to you talk.

744
00:38:30,500 --> 00:38:35,200
Um, is before I make any further
decisions, I need to get on the phone

745
00:38:35,200 --> 00:38:39,020
to about 20, 30 customers over the
next week and get some feedback, right?

746
00:38:39,960 --> 00:38:40,100
I

747
00:38:40,100 --> 00:38:43,140
Peter Murphy Lewis: would, and I
don't know, this goes back to our

748
00:38:43,140 --> 00:38:47,590
very first thing that we talked
about where I worked in surveys with

749
00:38:47,610 --> 00:38:49,500
people about their religious beliefs.

750
00:38:50,090 --> 00:38:54,110
I don't know if people are going
to be able to answer the question

751
00:38:54,630 --> 00:39:00,315
that is going to actually help you
determine if it's going to impact their

752
00:39:00,315 --> 00:39:02,635
behavior after you make a decision.

753
00:39:03,385 --> 00:39:07,265
I think that I would probably go about
your question in a roundabout way

754
00:39:07,745 --> 00:39:15,490
by asking on a scale of 1 to 10 how
ecological do they consider themselves?

755
00:39:16,110 --> 00:39:21,190
Um, and then I would ask them if, if
they answer, you know, like seven, eight,

756
00:39:21,190 --> 00:39:25,400
nine, or 10, then I would ask them how
that impacts you in your day to day.

757
00:39:25,960 --> 00:39:29,550
And I would ask them a couple more
extended that would break out there,

758
00:39:29,800 --> 00:39:35,995
because you're going to get a lot
of answers in the survey, if you ask

759
00:39:35,995 --> 00:39:38,835
them up front, that actually isn't
true based on it, you're not going

760
00:39:38,835 --> 00:39:40,325
to see an impact on the behavior.

761
00:39:40,775 --> 00:39:43,515
And I think that that's,
it's because it's trendy.

762
00:39:43,575 --> 00:39:48,100
It's because sometimes we don't
even understand our unconscious

763
00:39:48,100 --> 00:39:51,974
and our subconscious why we're
purchasing what our behaviors are.

764
00:39:52,165 --> 00:39:52,445
Right?

765
00:39:52,445 --> 00:39:56,205
I mean, even you and I as marketers,
we, we, we buy stuff on Black

766
00:39:56,205 --> 00:39:58,815
Friday and we shouldn't fall
for those, but we still do it.

767
00:40:00,575 --> 00:40:00,695
Yeah.

768
00:40:00,695 --> 00:40:00,895
Yeah.

769
00:40:00,895 --> 00:40:01,185
Yeah.

770
00:40:02,365 --> 00:40:06,555
And I still, I still, you know,
like I consider myself sustainable.

771
00:40:06,555 --> 00:40:10,525
I still buy, uh, uh, a styrofoam cup.

772
00:40:10,595 --> 00:40:15,615
And if you asked me why, I can't answer
why there's something deeper than that.

773
00:40:16,815 --> 00:40:17,325
Matt Edmundson: Yeah.

774
00:40:17,785 --> 00:40:18,615
That's interesting.

775
00:40:18,955 --> 00:40:21,575
And I, I, I think you're right.

776
00:40:21,575 --> 00:40:23,945
I think there's a real interesting
one, isn't there, between our

777
00:40:23,945 --> 00:40:26,495
subconscious thinking and our
actual conscious thinking.

778
00:40:27,125 --> 00:40:30,095
And our conscious thinking is what
we say, our subconscious thinking is

779
00:40:30,095 --> 00:40:32,035
what we do, how we act, how we behave.

780
00:40:32,725 --> 00:40:35,305
And so I like what you're saying
there, because actually the questions

781
00:40:35,305 --> 00:40:39,065
are, I'm asking you questions more
about your subconscious, about how

782
00:40:39,065 --> 00:40:43,465
you act and behave, rather than
what you, so I think if I said to

783
00:40:43,465 --> 00:40:49,025
somebody, um, are you, do you try and
live a, you know, sustainable life?

784
00:40:49,475 --> 00:40:51,775
Well, they're going to say yes, aren't
they, because why would they say no?

785
00:40:52,655 --> 00:40:55,025
Because they come across as the
bad guy straight away, don't they?

786
00:40:55,035 --> 00:40:57,165
If I ask a question like that.

787
00:40:57,165 --> 00:40:59,555
So I think I like what
you say about the phrasing

788
00:40:59,555 --> 00:41:00,504
Peter Murphy Lewis: of it.

789
00:41:00,985 --> 00:41:06,215
At least in the US where we're not
nearly as advanced, you know, from a

790
00:41:06,225 --> 00:41:09,235
sustainable point of view, you know,
like I would say we're light years

791
00:41:09,235 --> 00:41:12,395
away from, from Europe, uh, in the US.

792
00:41:13,010 --> 00:41:16,270
It's, it's more about the
image and how we feel from when

793
00:41:16,270 --> 00:41:17,870
people think we're sustainable.

794
00:41:18,210 --> 00:41:22,230
So for example, like this, this brand,
I think it's called like Love, let

795
00:41:22,230 --> 00:41:27,590
me see real quick, Love Your Melon.

796
00:41:27,975 --> 00:41:32,505
Okay, Love Your Melon, Love
Your Melon is a brand that,

797
00:41:32,725 --> 00:41:34,885
um, does not take any profits.

798
00:41:34,885 --> 00:41:37,765
It gives away, it's a charitable
NGO that gives away all of its

799
00:41:37,795 --> 00:41:39,405
profits to kids with cancer.

800
00:41:39,485 --> 00:41:41,075
I'm 99 percent sure that's it.

801
00:41:41,495 --> 00:41:47,455
Like, so for me wearing that is
more about other people knowing that

802
00:41:47,515 --> 00:41:49,055
I'm buying that type of product.

803
00:41:49,960 --> 00:41:54,660
So, and, and, and I don't think
that that's, you know, uh, I

804
00:41:54,660 --> 00:41:57,610
don't think that that can't
translate across other countries.

805
00:41:57,620 --> 00:42:00,250
There's all some, there's all
some, some imagery around it.

806
00:42:00,260 --> 00:42:03,860
So if that's the path you're going to
go because you believe in it, which is

807
00:42:03,910 --> 00:42:07,480
great for you, Matt, also make sure that
it lines up for an emotional benefit

808
00:42:07,490 --> 00:42:10,570
for the person who might not truly be
sustainable, but it makes them feel

809
00:42:10,580 --> 00:42:12,030
better that they're supporting you.

810
00:42:12,350 --> 00:42:13,960
Matt Edmundson: Yeah,
that's really powerful.

811
00:42:14,340 --> 00:42:15,070
Really powerful.

812
00:42:15,490 --> 00:42:18,510
I'm going to ponder that, uh, Peter,
and I'm going to think that through

813
00:42:18,510 --> 00:42:21,100
a little bit, like, how would I,
how would I phrase those questions?

814
00:42:21,440 --> 00:42:27,220
I guess one of the questions would be,
um, I'd have to test it out on a few

815
00:42:27,220 --> 00:42:30,200
people, I, one of the things that's
come into my mind is, would you leave

816
00:42:30,200 --> 00:42:35,280
the, the, the bottle of, the current
bottle of the health supplement, would

817
00:42:35,280 --> 00:42:37,560
you leave it on your kitchen side
or would you put it in a cupboard?

818
00:42:38,680 --> 00:42:41,560
Um, and what would your
reasoning behind that be?

819
00:42:41,800 --> 00:42:45,290
Like, would you try and hide this, or
would you be okay with it being out?

820
00:42:45,320 --> 00:42:48,530
And trying to understand that
might be, uh, quite an interest.

821
00:42:48,600 --> 00:42:50,520
Anyway, I'm going off on a tangent.

822
00:42:50,530 --> 00:42:53,420
We're not trying to self mark,
solve my, uh, packaging issues

823
00:42:53,430 --> 00:42:54,620
for my health supplement company.

824
00:42:55,060 --> 00:42:56,980
Uh, they've been going a long time.

825
00:42:56,980 --> 00:42:58,260
They will carry on, I'm very sure.

826
00:42:58,890 --> 00:43:03,600
Um, so this, going back to what you
said, having a clear objective and anti

827
00:43:03,600 --> 00:43:06,880
objective, I have to be honest with you,
I've not heard this phrase anti objective.

828
00:43:07,135 --> 00:43:08,025
That much.

829
00:43:08,435 --> 00:43:10,095
Um, and I quite like that.

830
00:43:10,105 --> 00:43:15,445
So just explain what you mean by the
objective and anti objective a bit more.

831
00:43:15,445 --> 00:43:16,745
Let's get super clear on that.

832
00:43:16,845 --> 00:43:17,075
So

833
00:43:18,065 --> 00:43:19,835
Peter Murphy Lewis: it's the first
time it's ever come out of my mouth.

834
00:43:19,915 --> 00:43:25,935
So it's gonna, uh, I'm gonna, ladies and
gentlemen, bumble and jumble and, and,

835
00:43:25,965 --> 00:43:27,955
and scramble around to come up with it.

836
00:43:28,345 --> 00:43:29,805
I'm borrowing it from.

837
00:43:30,610 --> 00:43:35,230
I'm borrowing it from a book that I read
in the last year, and I'm not going to be

838
00:43:35,230 --> 00:43:42,130
able to credit who it was, but what they
were talking about was your ideal client,

839
00:43:43,010 --> 00:43:49,035
and they said  what would have to happen
that's so negative that you wouldn't

840
00:43:49,035 --> 00:43:50,945
want to also work with that ideal client.

841
00:43:51,045 --> 00:43:55,585
So it's basically thinking about who is
your ideal spouse, but what's one pet

842
00:43:55,585 --> 00:43:57,835
peeve that you would have about that,
that there's no way that you would

843
00:43:57,835 --> 00:44:01,635
want to marry that ideal spouse, the
exact same thing with a revenue goal.

844
00:44:02,175 --> 00:44:06,605
And, and, and what's the, what would
you not, what would be a veto for

845
00:44:06,605 --> 00:44:08,525
you to go after that revenue goal?

846
00:44:08,795 --> 00:44:12,905
And you need to take that into
consideration when you're mapping

847
00:44:12,905 --> 00:44:17,165
out, you know, your, your, your
objective in that customer journey.

848
00:44:17,175 --> 00:44:18,795
So let's just say, you know, like.

849
00:44:19,415 --> 00:44:23,515
My, my objective with selling more
supplements and making them more

850
00:44:23,515 --> 00:44:28,345
sustainable, um, is that I'm making
a bigger impact, um, in the world

851
00:44:28,345 --> 00:44:30,405
and my carbon footprint, right?

852
00:44:30,455 --> 00:44:34,285
But my, my anti objective around
that, let's say that I still.

853
00:44:34,440 --> 00:44:36,330
Do that and my revenue goes up.

854
00:44:36,620 --> 00:44:40,450
Um, it makes it less likely that
people are going to recommend me.

855
00:44:40,490 --> 00:44:45,010
And that has to do with X, Y, and
Z, or it creates a huge amount of

856
00:44:45,010 --> 00:44:47,980
operational stress, stress on my manager.

857
00:44:47,980 --> 00:44:50,380
And that might make my
manager leave, right?

858
00:44:50,410 --> 00:44:53,910
Because my manager is now going
to have to go to China and visit

859
00:44:54,020 --> 00:44:55,990
17 factories in the next year.

860
00:44:56,010 --> 00:44:57,350
And they're going to leave me.

861
00:44:57,570 --> 00:44:58,510
Yeah, yeah,

862
00:44:58,560 --> 00:44:59,320
Matt Edmundson: no, fair enough.

863
00:44:59,350 --> 00:45:00,910
I like this bit.

864
00:45:01,200 --> 00:45:07,305
So for you, Um, starting off with this
clear objective and anti objective,

865
00:45:07,875 --> 00:45:11,985
uh, understanding what it is that you
want, what, and what it is you're not

866
00:45:11,985 --> 00:45:17,835
prepared to, to lose, um, you know,
with the beginning is, is the critical

867
00:45:17,835 --> 00:45:19,765
part because that guides the questions.

868
00:45:21,815 --> 00:45:24,395
Peter Murphy Lewis: Well, in the example
of the subscription service that I

869
00:45:24,395 --> 00:45:28,215
mentioned, right, you know, they went
from 49% and they created a VIP product.

870
00:45:29,015 --> 00:45:33,605
One of their concerns is that they
were going to be, they were going to be

871
00:45:33,605 --> 00:45:39,675
seen as, uh, as like an elitist brand.

872
00:45:40,020 --> 00:45:48,220
And, you know, this is, this is a company
that sells 15, 000 subscriptions at the 49

873
00:45:48,360 --> 00:45:50,489
$.
So if they start playing
around with something that's 2.

874
00:45:50,490 --> 00:45:54,260
99, that could change their
perception that they're a blue collar,

875
00:45:54,260 --> 00:45:55,570
that they're made for everybody.

876
00:45:55,730 --> 00:45:56,880
And you need to think about that.

877
00:45:56,880 --> 00:45:58,070
Well, that didn't happen.

878
00:45:58,070 --> 00:45:59,880
We achieved it and we
were able to map that out.

879
00:46:00,530 --> 00:46:01,250
Matt Edmundson: Fantastic.

880
00:46:01,660 --> 00:46:02,190
Fantastic.

881
00:46:02,780 --> 00:46:04,470
Listen, Peter, I am aware of time.

882
00:46:04,520 --> 00:46:07,580
I'm aware that it has flown by
at a thousand miles an hour,

883
00:46:07,690 --> 00:46:10,130
as it always does when you talk
to really interesting people.

884
00:46:10,730 --> 00:46:13,750
And I feel like, as always,
I've got a list of questions.

885
00:46:13,830 --> 00:46:17,640
My question list is longer now than when
we started, uh, which is always good.

886
00:46:18,100 --> 00:46:21,680
Um, but if people listening to the
show want to reach out, if they want

887
00:46:21,680 --> 00:46:24,780
to connect with you, maybe hire you,
or just maybe got some questions

888
00:46:24,780 --> 00:46:27,760
about questions, I suppose, what's
the best way for people to do that?

889
00:46:29,100 --> 00:46:33,120
Peter Murphy Lewis: LinkedIn's the best
place, just search Peter Murphy Lewis.

890
00:46:33,170 --> 00:46:35,490
I'm pretty sure you're the only
person you're going to find, at

891
00:46:35,490 --> 00:46:37,350
least based in the US or in Chile.

892
00:46:37,640 --> 00:46:39,840
Um, and you can also visit
my website, strategicpete.

893
00:46:40,340 --> 00:46:40,660
com.

894
00:46:40,660 --> 00:46:43,460
If you want to come see me with
the zebras, just come to Wichita,

895
00:46:43,730 --> 00:46:45,340
Kansas and ask for Strategic Pete.

896
00:46:46,550 --> 00:46:47,340
Matt Edmundson: Strategic Pete.

897
00:46:48,250 --> 00:46:50,180
Just go to Wichita and ask for
Strategic Pete and they'll let you know.

898
00:46:50,280 --> 00:46:51,510
Just follow the light right down there.

899
00:46:52,005 --> 00:46:54,565
Uh, next time I'm in Kansas, I'm going
to stop by because that just sounds

900
00:46:54,575 --> 00:46:55,935
like I just want to see the zoo.

901
00:46:55,965 --> 00:46:56,725
I genuinely do.

902
00:46:56,725 --> 00:46:57,395
I'm really curious.

903
00:46:57,915 --> 00:47:01,245
Uh, but listen, uh, Pete, thank
you, man, for coming on the

904
00:47:01,245 --> 00:47:03,065
show and sharing your wisdom.

905
00:47:03,575 --> 00:47:07,535
Um, and telling us about the brand
name of your hat and all that

906
00:47:07,535 --> 00:47:08,615
sort of stuff and about your zoo.

907
00:47:09,415 --> 00:47:12,542
It's thoroughly enjoyable and
I feel like I've learned a lot

908
00:47:12,542 --> 00:47:14,155
and I, I always enjoy learning.

909
00:47:14,155 --> 00:47:17,545
So thank you for coming on and thank
you for just being an absolute legend.

910
00:47:17,650 --> 00:47:25,080
Well, we will of course link to
Peter's information in the show notes,

911
00:47:25,090 --> 00:47:28,480
which you can get along for free with
a transcript at ecommercepodcast.

912
00:47:28,510 --> 00:47:33,060
net, or it'll come straight to your inbox
if you are signed up to the newsletter.

913
00:47:33,350 --> 00:47:36,790
And of course, a huge thanks again
to Peter for joining me today.

914
00:47:36,790 --> 00:47:38,014
Love, love, loved.

915
00:47:38,545 --> 00:47:40,975
That conversation, and I hope you did too.

916
00:47:41,245 --> 00:47:44,645
Also, a big shout out to today's
show sponsor, the eCommerce Cohort.

917
00:47:44,965 --> 00:47:49,375
Remember to check out their free
training online at eCommerce Psych, uh,

918
00:47:49,425 --> 00:47:50,725
eCommerce Psych, that's the old website.

919
00:47:50,775 --> 00:47:51,705
Try eCommerceCohort.

920
00:47:52,375 --> 00:47:53,955
com, and we get the right website.

921
00:47:54,185 --> 00:47:56,165
Uh, come join the membership,
be good to see you in there.

922
00:47:56,495 --> 00:47:59,655
Also, be sure to follow eCommerce, uh,
the eCommerce Podcast, wherever you get

923
00:47:59,655 --> 00:48:03,775
your podcasts from, because we've got some
more great conversations lined up, and I

924
00:48:03,795 --> 00:48:05,645
don't want you to miss any Any of them.

925
00:48:05,885 --> 00:48:09,635
And in case no one has told you
yet today, let me be the first.

926
00:48:09,815 --> 00:48:10,975
You are awesome.

927
00:48:10,985 --> 00:48:11,455
Yes, you are.

928
00:48:11,495 --> 00:48:12,355
Created awesome.

929
00:48:12,405 --> 00:48:14,585
It's just a burden you have to bear.

930
00:48:14,755 --> 00:48:15,685
Peter's got to bear it.

931
00:48:16,025 --> 00:48:16,825
I've got to bear it.

932
00:48:17,115 --> 00:48:18,155
You've got to bear it as well.

933
00:48:18,285 --> 00:48:21,455
Now, the eCommerce Podcast
is produced by Aurion Media.

934
00:48:21,455 --> 00:48:25,675
You can find our entire archive of
episodes on your favorite podcast app.

935
00:48:26,055 --> 00:48:28,585
The team that makes this show
possible is the fabulous.

936
00:48:28,995 --> 00:48:34,045
Sadaf Beynon, the beautiful Tanya
Hutsuliak, and the legend that is Josh

937
00:48:34,085 --> 00:48:36,135
Edmundson who wrote the theme music.

938
00:48:36,415 --> 00:48:38,795
As I mentioned, if you would
like to read the transcript or

939
00:48:38,795 --> 00:48:39,725
show notes, you know where to go.

940
00:48:40,325 --> 00:48:41,735
eCommerce podcast.net.

941
00:48:41,735 --> 00:48:43,355
Sign up for the newsletter now.

942
00:48:43,355 --> 00:48:44,435
That's it from me.

943
00:48:44,705 --> 00:48:46,115
That's it from Peter.

944
00:48:46,355 --> 00:48:48,485
Thank you so much for joining us.

945
00:48:48,725 --> 00:48:49,955
I'll see you next week.

946
00:48:50,075 --> 00:48:50,705
That's it from me.

947
00:48:51,055 --> 00:48:51,535
Bye for now.