Hi, Debbie. Welcome to the podcast. Before we jump in, I just want to say I really appreciate your contribution to Launchpad. And for your time today. I know you're a super busy woman. So thank you.

Thanks, Chris, for having me. And yeah, happy, always happy to share.

Well, let's start at the really beginning. I want to hear about your story. I think it's super interesting. You grew up in a housing estate in the UK. How did you become an entrepreneur in Asia running a neobank?

It wasn't planned. It's just these things that happened. So I mean, I spent the first 30 ish years of my life in the UK. I left school at 16, just with GCSEs, to business studies, at night school. My first job was actually in a high street bank, provincial branch and kind of really worked my way up from there. So it was kind of different jobs that took me more in the IT direction. So I actually did say start out in pure banking, but kind of worked up through more technology related roles, and then moved a couple of times, and just kind of really progressed upwards through various roles, moved to London in the late 90s, I would say mid to late 90s. And then kind of everything changed almost overnight. I think around about the turn of the millennium, there was a combination of things happened. I decided to leave my husband at the time, who was basically making me completely miserable and only happy when he was putting me down. And I also made a 600% profit on some shares I bought almost overnight, they kind of literally just rocketed and that cold call kind of coincided with my getting redundant. And literally all of those things happen within the space of a couple of months. And so, at that time, I was kind of thinking, Well, what am I going to do now and I had some really interesting job offers coming up but some friends of mine had taken time out to go traveling, and they said, "Hey, why don't you come and be a backpacker for a while?" and I thought Yeah, okay, let's give that a go. Just for a while and I'll take a few months out because I never had the money and I had no ties, right, so and so just coincidentally, I said, "Where are you going to be in April," they said, "Cambodia," I said, "Where's Cambodia?" And the travel agent said, "Where's Cambodia?" And so off, I went, and basically never went back - things really evolved from there. And so I started out backpacking, but this kind of moved into volunteering. And I really realised that there were many people who, particularly in Cambodia, had obvious intelligence and competence, but they actually had no opportunity for work at all. And so one of the things that I really saw was that if we wanted to drive lasting benefit at scale, the way to do it was to have a self sustaining business model, because like donor funds are finite, right, you get money you spend it, it's gone. What we need is something that's kind of self perpetuating, to actually continue to drive that positive benefit. And so I started to social enterprises, kind of got involved in doing some ERP consulting for NGOs, as well. That morphed into doing core banking system consulting for microfinance institutions who were owned at the time by NGOs. And that kind of just went on really, I got recommended by different microfinance institutions, I started working for bigger networks, they started sending me to Africa and all sorts of places. And it really just went on from there. So I got involved in bigger and bigger projects around microfinance, inclusive finance and technology that kind of took me to Laos, where we lived for a couple of years, then to Indonesia for a couple of years, then to Bangladesh for a couple of years. But during this time, I kind of was working literally all over the place, I mean, everywhere from sort of DR. Congo to Pakistan, to Papua New Guinea, and then to the Netherlands for a couple of years. But I was working mainly in Ethiopia at the time, bizarrely. And then kind of I got offered a role to come to Singapore to set up a regional head office for a call banking solutions provider. And so I established an office for Asia Pacific, Middle East and Africa. And set up a team in Singapore, I managed a team in India, a team in Brisbane and Australia, and say my kind of patch went from Ghana to Fiji. And so that was kind of quite a big role. But what I constantly saw was everywhere I went, and all of the financial institutions that I was advising, that they were kind of quiet, how would we describe this, kind of set in their ways? And so it was kind of like, this is what we do. And no, we're not interested in looking at new segments, we're happy with our one size fits all product. In many cases, what I was seeing was that, you know, they're giving loans to small businesses, but not really working out or measuring whether those loans actually helped those small businesses to grow. Right. As long as the loan gets repaid, I'm saying, Well, how is the business benefited, they're like, "Well, don't know, don't care, really." And on the other hand, you know, I'm also seeing that 90 plus percent of the management I'm advising is male, very, very few female at senior level, but also, when I'm going out into the streets, or fields, or whatever you're seeing, like at least 50% of these small businesses are run by women. And so they're not really getting what they needed from like financial services, but just in general, as well. So skills that you need. And I don't like to call it financial literacy, because my belief is that most people, particularly those entrepreneurs are very, very financially literate. What they're lacking is entrepreneurship skills. And that's something that's generally not available and accessible to your average micro entrepreneur.

In Southeast Asia. You mean like in these developing countries?

Everywhere, actually, it's a kind of universal thing is actually proper skills on how to be thoughtful and strategic about building well starting and growing your business. It's not just a developing world thing. It's literally everywhere you how to do impartial qualitative market research. Who knows how to do that? Nobody really, but how important is it really important?

Yeah, yeah. So Debbie, before we jump into this, I just want to go back and unpack your story. So you left your husband and you got a windfall of cash at the same time. Did one impact the other? I mean, did you get the confidence to leave your husband because you had financial independence?

No, actually the leaving the husband came first. I mean, I had a very good job at the time. So financially, I was not, it was not a problem. And like I did, like I was a co owner of our house and things like that. So from that point of view, I was kind of pretty well off. In general, say I had a decent job and a nice car in a nice house and everything else. So no, it was just more certain kind of random conversations happened, that made me really realize that I'd kind of got into a relationship where my partner felt happiest when he was putting me down. And so just just small things, some big things, and I was just like, you know, I can see the way this is going to go. If we have children or whatever, you know, then that's kind of it. And so I have kind of made a decision, ultimately, that I had to get out.

And how old were you then?

33?

And how long have you been married?

18 months, but we'd actually been together for eight and a half years, like living together for most of that time. Now, I think part of what it was was kind of you, you're always at this stage where we were kind of expected to start a family and stuff, right. And I was just thinking, I'm going to be so dependent on him. And he's kind of like, as far as he was concerned, I was sort of very much a second class citizen, right. And so I thought, you know, if I don't get out now, I'm never going to do it. And so that was kind of more about what motivated that.

Wow, it's brave when you've been together for eight and a half years. It reminds me a lot of sure you've read the book, "Eat Pray, Love" where it was a similar stage in life where she was meant to be happily married. But so your life completely changed when that happened. And you left the UK and I suppose with that you were able to reassess everything as to what you wanted to do and what impact you wanted to have with your life. Right?

Yeah and I think so there was nothing that was particularly planned. Actually, I'd like a few people that said, "Well, when you come back, I've got this job for you here." And so there was still pinging me when I was in Cambodia saying, "When are you coming back then?" "I'm not sure." Yeah. And then basically, at one stage, I just made a decision that there was actually quite a lot I could achieve in Cambodia. But in order to do that, I had to kind of go back and tidy up my affairs a little bit and take a one way flight and go for it.

Pretty brave.

Yeah, my I have to say my parents were actually much more my father just didn't get this at all. You know, it was kind of constant things about well, when are you going to settle down then. And even to a certain degree, kind of when I did sort of almost settle down in Cambodia was like, people's perception was still like I was on some kind of extended holiday.

Did your dad's questioning you impact you at all? Or were you able just to put that aside and say, "That's okay. It's that's that's how you see it dad, I see differently."

Yeah. But you know, I think it's kind of interesting as well, that, you know, when I was in Cambodia, I mean, our eldest child is adopted from Cambodia, our youngest child is biological and was born in Bangkok. And so they're kind of like we very much had a family unit, because I also got married to my second husband in Cambodia, in a traditional Cambodian wedding, six costume changes in an elephant involved.

Wow, that's cool!

Yeah, the photos are something else. But you know, so we very much became kind of settled, right? And Cambodia, but still there was this perception from a lot of people is like, you know, settling down involves going back to where you came from. And I kind of didn't really see it like that we've now like, we've got a family, right, I've got a job. We are settled.

I want to know if there was anything from your background from growing up in a not a wealthy environment that you think held you back, do you think there were limiting beliefs or anything that surrounded you?

I think kind of not not particularly related to my background, but just more of sort of what is generally expected from people overall, which is, you know, you get a job and you work your way up the career ladder, and then you're successful, and then you retire. That's how I kind of was what I was sort of focused on doing for the first sight like 10 plus years of my life. My career was kind of getting to that next stage. So it was like one job and then go somewhere else to get promoted. And so it went on, and I did kind of think you know what I really need to be as a director, if I'm a director, then I've made it right. And so I became a director at the sort of second to last company I worked at in the UK. It was actually the first time they've made someone who wasn't one of the founders, a director, so that was quite a big honour as well. And I kind of got there and I've now got the nice car. I mean, very nice company because I've got a very nice house and very nice clothes and holidays, and antiga, and all of this kind of stuff that comes with it. And then I kind of thought, oh, this doesn't really feel exciting or motivating. It was a bit flat, actually. And I think that's kind of what I really learnt then was like, you know that the ladder and kind of reaching these pinnacles of having everything from a material and title point of view, didn't actually fulfil me.

So did you work out then that you wanted to do something different? Did you know it was worked with purpose that you were looking for? Or did you just know, this wasn't in?

Yeah, more like this, wasn't it. And so the job that I did get after that, although it didn't actually pay more, was not a director role. And actually, I didn't even have any people reporting into me having had like, you know, at least half the company reporting into me before. And so I kind of did change there because I wanted to get involved in something new. So it was a new kind of technology. And something that was a bit sort of interesting. So I actually did go for that job based upon it being interesting, rather than anything else.

And then in that interesting role, were you fulfilled or did you find that it had the same issues?

Yeah, I know, kind of actually was, in a way, but different things happen. So it was an E-cash solution, which was basically electronic cash on smart cards. This is the late 90s, which is so pretty bleeding edge kind of stuff. I spent the first six months there being mega excited about technology. And we were doing all sorts of interesting pilots with Vodafone, and British Telecom and all sorts of things. And about six months in, I realised that there was actually no business model, it was a massive thing that was majority owned by MasterCard. So there was plenty of money swirling around. I mean, all the big banks have put money in, we have pilots going on all over the place. Huge, huge stuff. But once I actually came in and started talking to people about implementing something, they were all super excited until someone suggested they probably want to pay for it. And they were like, "Oh, well, no, then." And so that was a big kind of revelation, because it was like, someone has actually kind of spent all this money to put all this pilot,

And we're talking millions.

Yeah, easily. I mean, probably into the billions, I would say if I was, you know, huge, huge amounts of money here. Like when I joined, it was at least five years into pilots, I would say yet nobody was actually prepared to pay for the equipment, the cards were really expensive, because of the kind of security they had on them a white five pounds card, which in like 1998 was a vast amount of money, and no one was prepared to pay for them. And so it was kind of this sort of big eye opening thing. To quote one of my colleagues, a solution looking for a problem. And I think that was a massive learning thing for me. Is that, like, if you're not solving a problem for someone, they're not going to pay for it.

Yeah. Isn't it amazing that you could have such big names like MasterCard spending multiple millions on solution that no one wants? I mean, it kind of blows my mind to think that that happened. And I know this has really shaped your journey and the way you look at business, and you've actually come to Launchpad and run a Business Canvas Model Workshop for entrepreneurs. Maybe you can share with us a little bit about that workshop. And I've got so many things to ask you. I want to get to Lucy. But um, I know that this ties in really nicely. But yeah, talk to me more about where you see this big challenge that entrepreneurs miss?

Yeah, I think in general, when I do the business model canvas workshop that I did, has actually been sort of based upon doing the same exercise for financial institutions, everywhere from sort of Gosh, Mexico to South Africa to Kyrgyzstan. I've actually run this before, but then actually tweaked it a bit more for general small businesses. And it's kind of really focused on the same thing is that it's kind of human nature, to come up with an idea or a solution, and then try and retrofit the problem to fit your solution. It's a bias, right? It's just, it's the way it always happens. And so what I've kind of seen is just how difficult it is for people to start with a problem with no preconceived ideas at all of what the solution should be. And that's really what I think has been the most sort of eye opening for people with the workshop is how you actually go about doing that. And how do you actually really recognize problems that need to be solved and that this is something that you can then make a business out of it tends to say I've seen it so many. So many times around the other way, there was a workshop I did in Bangladesh in Dhaka, for a group of banks in the region, where I was kind of explaining to them to how to do this. This is literally word for word. They said, Hmm, all this customer centric stuff. Yeah, it's kind of all right. Good. And I guess we understand why it's important. But it's difficult. Do we really have to do this? And this is the typical thing, right? It's like it tries to get yourself see the world through other people's eyes, I think is so so difficult for people. And so this is another thing we often see, and which I've been trying to convey in my workshop is that actually putting yourself in other people's shoes is the first thing that you need to do. Because what tends to happen is people generally tend to gravitate towards offering things that solve problems for people like them. And so the bigger market is people who are absolutely not like you. And that's a really difficult thing to do is to see the world through their eyes.

Hmm. Okay, so do you feel like lots of people limit themselves? Because they rush into the fun bit, like creating the product and the branding and the colors and so forth? And don't spend enough time teasing out? What does it feel like? What is the problem feel like? What is the problem look like? What is the problem? What are the symptoms of the problem?

Exactly. Exactly. And I mean, we see this right, as soon as someone asks you to, like we we all like to kind of think that we're creative, right? And so we all spend ages on the company name and the logo and what our colors are going to be right? Because we like that there. It is, you quite rightly say it's the fun bit, the difficult bit is actually going and having impartial, non leading conversations with potential customers who are nothing like you.

And a lot of small businesses do create a business that solves a problem they have. So is there a problem with that, you know, using yourself as the customer or using your experience as the research,

not particularly providing there's a big enough market?

Okay, so when you want to go big, you need a lot more research, yeah?

Yeah. But also, it's like, maybe people like you don't have a big, big problem. It's another group that has a big problem. So it's not just about the size of the market, but the scale of the problem, right? If you're solving a small problem, and maybe what you're offering is then a bit more of a nice to have rather than something that's absolutely essential.

I do 100% believe that if you can create a product that people absolutely need, everything else comes easy. You know, the PR is easy, the marketing is easy. Even the branding is easy, you know, everything flows, if you've got a great product that people need. So I think I 100% agree with you spending that time and investing in the concept is the number one thing that people skip over don't they.

Yes.

So let's jump into Lucy. Can you share what is Lucy?

Yeah, so Lucy is a mobile banking and business building services app designed to help women to start and grow their businesses. So basically, to our customers, we are kind of like their bank, except we offer a range of products that their bank doesn't offer. What we're doing, so everything is entirely app based. We launched in Singapore about a year ago. But Singapore is really only step one on our journey. So we are aiming to be expanding into other countries from early next year. Our model is actually to partner with banks. So we're kind of presenting something that's using a banking license at the back end, rather than getting our own licenses. And we're doing what I said before, which is kind of combining the financial services with the non financial services. So the tailored business building tools that your average solo small entrepreneur actually needs to help them to be successful.

Awesome. And how did this idea come about? Was it from your time working in Cambodia and working with smaller businesses with your social enterprises? Like how did you see this need?

I think it's actually kind of it came about kind of from a number of different sources the way these things do. So I'd seen certain things from the work that I do. To say, which was kind of everywhere from sort of Dr. Congo onwards was that there are entrepreneurs, lots and lots of women entrepreneurs, who really weren't getting access to the services they needed. What I'd actually seen was because financial institutions didn't really offer tailored services that really solved their problem, that they were using these kind of the bank for a bits of what they needed. And then using a whole bunch of other informal stuff for the other things they needed. And it seemed like a massive missed opportunity. Because if someone's got 10% of their money in a bank account, and 90% of it under the bed, then the bank's like missing out significantly. You know, one of the things I always used to say to them as to who their competition was, they looked at this bank, or that bank or that bank, like no, your competition's under the bed, because that's where people are keeping their money right now. And so what you want to see is, how can you compete with under the bed, right, and get people to take the money out from under the bed and put it in an account. So and so this was kind of something that I was seeing really everywhere, but also my co-founders, Luke and how had come from different backgrounds and had actually kind of at the same time, seen similar things. So Luke had built up an app development company from zero to like, 300 people. And he'd been working with some banks, building their mobile banking apps, and seeing just how slow and kind of boring they were, I guess, really not wanting to actually change the products, right. So he's building an app that sits on the products for the products and not the right products. And so he found working with banks, and their lack of innovation really, really frustrating, or actually used to be a CEO of a bank in Myanmar. And so he'd actually seen that the women that borrowed from him were statistically much better payers, but they often couldn't get access to credit because it was the men that owned all the collateral. And so this, preventing them from getting access to the credit that they really needed. So it was kind of a bit of a meeting of minds from all three directions. And we kind of all got introduced to each other and at various stages, just sort of dipped in and had coffees and things from time to time and kept talking about the state of the world and putting it all to rights. And then at one stage, it was just like, Well, nobody's doing anything about this. So perhaps we should.

Wow, there's so much there that I want to dig into, I suppose it's a great industry to disrupt because it is very rigid. It's very male dominated. It's not very easy to work with banks in Singapore. And even worse in other countries, like I have bank accounts in Indonesia. And, you know, it's quite funny, because it's business bank accounts that my husband and I both own, and we go into the bank, and they don't even want to talk to me, they just address him. And it's my company. I mean, honestly. So I think there's so much low hanging fruit, but I presume the reason it hasn't been disrupted before is it would be quite challenging. I mean, challenging to get people to, I suppose trust, a new bank that doesn't have the brand or the reputation like one of the big banks. So what is that the biggest challenge right now? What is what is challenging it? Lacy?

I'd say that's like, definitely a big challenge. I mean, particularly when there are so many scams going around and stuff, right. You know, we found out fairly early on that getting trying to sign people up through Facebook ads was just not working. Because you're like, well, here's a new bank and click here. And at the same time, you've got people saying, don't click on Facebook ads asking you to send money, it's a scam. Right? So that's the biggest challenge has been for us is building up this new brand where trust is literally everything right? We're asking people to deposit money, and we don't have a big name behind us that people would recognize. So yeah, this has been like a big big challenge is really building up that trust. And what we've actually found is that getting people who kind of like referrals or other people who are trusted entities actually saying yeah, Lucy is great has been like really valuable because we're kind of then building that trust by association.

And just so our listeners can understand what is the risk profile if you bank with Lucy, if we deposit all our business money with Lucy, how is it secured?

So we actually use the E money licence, which is completely regulated by NIS what this actually does is ringfence all customer deposits in a bank account that we can't actually touch at all. So for every single dollar of customer deposits, there is $1 in a ring things bank account that we don't have access to.

So does that make it actually safer than depositing it with other bank?

Technically, yes, it's because we can't lend it right. We can't invest it in dodgy cryptocurrency schemes or something. Right? And so you know, the, your average bank, if everyone went to try and withdraw their money today, they wouldn't be able to right because most of its been lent out or invested elsewhere. Whereas we're not allowed to do that using the E Money License.

Right. Hmm. So interesting. So one of your challenges is creating this brand awareness and trust. So, what are your strategies besides joining Launchpad, and coming on to the podcast? What else are you doing to help people understand what is Lucy and why we shouldn't bank with Lucy?

Yeah, so I mean, well, the other challenge, of course we have is that we're a startup. So we don't have mega bucks to spend on marketing campaigns. And certainly, you know, putting stuff on the side of buses wouldn't really do a good job. So it's kind of much more been sort of guerrilla tactics, which has been sort of just actually being present in a lot of cases, as we found has been really useful. So we did a human billboard, thing, people actually walking around with the billboards on their back at MRT stations a while back. So old school, right. But it people noticed it because it was right, nobody pays attention to this thing they're scrolling through on their phone, or even what it is that's plastered inside the trains, because they see that kind of thing every day, but they see someone walking around with a billboard on and they're like, that's a bit weird. And so that kind of thing got attention, but actually say being present, because I think, you know, as well, a lot of people, what was CCTV and so forth in Singapore, know that kind of the dodgy people kind of fly under the radar and then never visible. You know, everything's online. So by actually being visible, I think this is kind of really helped to sort of build our reputation and trust.

And how else have you been visible? I mean, it's quite hard when you're a startup, tell us what else you've been doing?

It's been challenging. We've done some pop ups, I speak on lots of podcasts. And so you know, I spoke at the Singapore FinTech festival recently, as well, I was a speaker on a panel at INSEAD. Not so long ago. But also we kind of have had some partnerships with different NGOs. Because, you know, we're also providing accounts to foreign domestic workers as well. So we've been partnering with some of the NGOs on that side of things, too. But yes, it is a lot more time consuming. What we're actually seeing now, though, is that we're getting very much a snowball effect, people are friends, which is a little bit, you know, you have to get that snowball started. And now it's really going along a bit more by itself.

And I suppose coming back to that product market fit, if you've got the right product, word of mouth does work, because it is a solution that hasn't been in the market before. And it is worth talking about.

Yeah, exactly. And so you know, we're seeing we're seeing kind of various posts on social media and stuff that people going, Hey, you should really try this, because it's super useful. And it's solving my problem. And we, you know, we've been focused on that more than trying to get lots of customers. Because if we can prove the product market fit, which is now really what we've done, we've seen lots of activity when we're not paying people to transact. And that's an important thing as well. We're not incentivizing people, people using it, because it's actually useful. And so now what we know is that when we kind of close our next round of investment, we can put some more marketing dollars in to get things better known and it will then kind of really rocket from there.

Wow, it is you're really in the trenches right now, when you're just starting out. but you don't want to incentivize people to use it. You want them to be genuine customers that love what you're offering. But it is really grassroots.

Yes. And I mean, but that I think is the most important thing, right? We need to know that people actually do really love what we're offering without us paying them to do so. So that was the kind of strategy I took at the very, very beginning.

So how long have you been going now with Lucy?

15 months since we launched, but we kind of were probably a year and a half before that building things.

And how many rounds of investment have you done?

We had a pre seed round in late 2020, which was entirely women. And that was kind of an intentional thing as we really wanted to enable women who kind of were willing to take a bit of a risk and put their money into something that they really believed in them the opportunity to get in really early on something. And that was quite a big thing given we were mid COVID. We weren't really expecting people to invest. But they did. We then had a seed round, which was with a VC from Hong Kong, which was summer last year. And we kind of just now sort of moving into our later stages right now of our Series A which is really going to fuel the growth into other countries through partnerships with banks.

Oh cool. It's a very exciting it's a very exciting stage and offering. I just i I'm so happy to be in the orbit of what you're doing,Debbie. I just want to ask you one more question before I jump into my rapid fire. Obviously, Lucy is all about helping female entrepreneurs. And it's a passion I share as well, I'd love to know, what do you think is the biggest thing that holds back female entrepreneurs?

Well to quote the Harvard Business Review, many people actually particularly investors view confidence as being more important than competence. Whereas I think a lot of women particularly don't have the confidence in themselves, but they have a lot of competence. And what's really interesting here is that in the long run, it's competence that's important more than confidence, it's very easy to kind of have a nice idea and talk a great story. If you actually don't have anything really to back that up, ultimately, the business is going to fail. And so I think this is one thing that many women that I have spoken to seem to feel that that in order to be a successful entrepreneur, they've got to be brash, and bold and arrogant, and be able to talk it big, when actually what they really need to be doing is actually to spend their investors money wisely, and really focus on delivering products that solve problems for people.

Yes, and I think you rightly so keep coming back to product market fit. But I really like your point about competence and confidence. And if you don't feel competent, then you need to invest in yourself and what you're learning and in the people around you to build yourself up to get the confidence. So you have that winning combo, because you need you’re absolutely right. You know, you can't have one without the other in the long run. It won't work.

Yeah. But I also think, say, if you've got that competence, right, that you can have quiet confidence. Somebody actually said to me once, the thing they liked about me was that I was quietly confident, which means you don't have to be like the big mouth, right? And have all the sound bites and everything like that. You just need to actually have the confidence in what you're doing. And to be able to talk about it.

The self belief.

Yeah.

Without the show.

Yes.

Love it. Okay, I want to jump into our rapid fire. I mean, I could have you for hours, Debbie. And I wouldn't be complete with everything I could ask you. But I want to ask you, what do you think is a good business?

Well, I guess coming back to what I said before, really something that really solves problems for people.

Love it! And do you have any business advice or mattress that you live by?

Um, I think one of the ones that I always like to quote is that no amount of marketing is going to persuade somebody to use something that doesn't make sense for them.

Okay? So and again, that just leans on that product market fit, building the right product first, and everything else will flow. So my next question is, which of these expressions resonates the most for you, luck favors the open mind, or fortune favors the bold?

I kind of like to mix that up a bit and say Fortune favors the open mind, just because I think there's we've seen too much bold going on at the moment, right? What with the FTX, and all of this kind of stuff, where it's just like talk, talk, talk and being bold. But actually, I do think that being open minded, is the way forwards for anybody who's wanting to grow their business, and constantly kind of questioning your own self beliefs, and any sort of previous sort of misconceptions that you may have had previous notions to keep challenging yourself. And being open minded, and not being afraid to kind of reevaluate things and pivot. I think that's kind of the road route to Fortune.

And, Debbie, I do think the story you've shared with us today about your journey is a testament to all of that. Obviously, you question everything right down to your marriage and made some? Well, I would say they're pretty bold moves. But they've come from having an open mind and being curious and questioning everything, which is what we all need to do. You know, like, if you question everything, you will end up with opportunities and opportunities that other people won't have. So I really - I love that. And what does community mean for you and your business?

Well, what we do actually is very much focused on community, I think, in the same way that Launchpad is and you know, one of the reasons I did the workshop was I think that women kind of almost uniquely I think actually want to lift each other up. And I think kind of, you know, the rising tide floats all boats kind of thing, right is is very much a thing, but I think having each other's back, and actually just helping where we have the capability to help. I mean, I think that's what it is. I think if we were going to sum up community as well, it would be kind of giving without any expectation, receiving anything back as well.

I love that. And I think we almost need to explain that more in the communities in which we operate, because there's so much value that you get from giving. And it should be done without the expectation of anything back, because that is what giving is. Right? It's not, it's not a trade. It's just giving.

Yeah. And something you know, someone asked me a while ago, when I there was something that I did without any expectation. And they're like, Well, why are you doing this? And I just said, because it's the right thing to do.

And it makes you feel great. You know, like, you do get something back, you feel good, you feel good that you're having a positive impact on someone else's world. But yeah, you're right, there is a lot of things that went into go, what's the right thing to do here? Okay, two more questions. But I really don't want this to end. Tell me what is your favorite business book or podcast?

Gosh, I don't read many business books, I must admit, but the one kind of sticks out, which is a really old one, there's a book called The Goal by Eli Goldratt. And it's actually written in style of a novel and explains the principles of just in time manufacturing. Sounds like I used to sell manufacturing software years ago. And so I kind of know a lot about manufacturing, but it's kind of just, it was one of those first ones, that they actually kind of tried to present something that was a big, heavy topic in a kind of novel. And so it kind of just really works. And I do quote a lot of that book from time to time. I'm also quite a big fan of Gary Vee. It's not technically a podcast, but I did kind of watch his stuff quite a lot. Just again, because he's kind of quite a common sense down to earth kind of person. And, and I like that.

Yeah, he's good, isn't he? And lastly, at Launchpad, as you've said, one of our expressions is we love a rising tide floats all boats. I'd love to know if you have an entrepreneur that we should invite onto this podcast who is doing something pretty cool in regards to to social impact and people on the planet?

Yeah, there's a guy I know in Cambodia called Plone Prim. He runs an NGO called Cambodian Living Arts. And they've been trying to reinvigorate traditional Cambodian dance and music and art that kind of were lost during the whole Khmer Rouge genocide. He's also doing something really interesting now about kind of putting art that's kind of been mislaid at various stages through colonialism and, and kind of looting in general, but also to try and keep a kind of immutable record of all of the different kinds of pieces of art around the world using Blockchain, which is, I think, a super interesting project as well.

Hmm. Super interesting. Yeah. And And isn't it great to see something like blockchain being used for something like ancient arts to kind of get them back to where they should be that some yeah, I'd love to track him down. Maybe I can hit you up for an intro. Debbie, thank you so much. As I said, this could be an hour and a half long, I could keep going. And I do want to say, anyone who is a member of Launchpad, Debbie is in our circle, and is a great person to meet and a wise person to ask questions of or throw ideas to, we look forward to seeing Lucy grow from strength to strength. So thanks again for joining me here today, Debbie.

Thanks, Chris.