Hello and welcome to The Art Engager podcast.
I'm Claire Bown.
Here to help you create more engaging experiences in
museums and cultural spaces.
This podcast is all about unlocking the potential of engagement.
We'll be exploring key practices that transform how you connect with
art, objects, people, and ideas.
Together we'll dive into techniques that spark curiosity, foster
dialogue, and build deeper.
Let's get started with today's episode.
Hello and welcome to a new episode of The Art Engager.
Today I'm chatting with museum educator and project manager Anja Høegh.
Anja's worked in museums for over 20 years, focusing on education,
exhibitions, and making museums more engaging and accessible.
For everyone.
With a background in teaching art, media, and theatre, and experience
as a director and stage designer, she brings a unique perspective to
her current role at Museum Salling.
In this episode, we talk about the importance of making connections,
the challenges of building trust with visitors, and how to keep them engaged.
Anja shares how she uses sensory experiences slow looking, and activities
like drawing yoga to help visitors connect with each other and the
artworks or objects they're looking at.
You're in for a treat.
Enjoy.
Hi, Anja, and welcome to The Art Engager podcast.
Thank you, Claire.
So glad to be here.
I'm delighted you're here.
Could you tell us who you are and what you do?
Yeah, my name is Anja Høegh, and I'm from Denmark.
And right now I'm working on a project that's called Art and Cultural Laboratory.
And it's at a museum in the northern part of Denmark.
and then I have some of my own small projects about art and theatre.
But mainly the arts and cultural laboratory has my sort of main focus.
It's a big project.
So, what brought you to here?
Because you've got quite an interesting background, theatrical design.
Tell us a little bit about how you got into museums.
Yeah I really wanted to be a stage designer and a costume designer.
But I got arthritis when I was 13, so I had to change my way in a way.
And when I was studying to be a teacher, I went to an internship at the
Metropolitan Museum of Art in New York.
And That's probably where my sort of curiosity started in what could this
place actually be and what could it do?
And I had these really great experiences on Mondays when the museum was closed
and there was nobody there except the guards, of course, but nobody
was there, so it was very quiet.
And I think some of that.
story in a way, and also the possibilities that I got at the
museum when I was an intern, turned on my curiosity to say, okay, that
might be a road for me at some point.
And then I got the opportunity some years later, and now I've been in
the business for about 20 years.
And you've worked at a variety of different museums.
Previously to Museum Saling, you were at a much larger museum.
Do you want to tell us about some of the projects you've worked on previously?
Yeah, I was a team lead in our education team for both nature and culture
for about eight and a half years.
And then I was fortunate enough to also be a project lead in some of
our exhibitions and our museums.
And I think that one of the things that I'm really proud of
is when we had to rebuild a museum that's called Nymindegab Museum.
It's on the west coast.
It's a beautiful place.
And we had to say, okay, now we have to rethink the story here.
What are we going to do?
And I really think that it grasped a lot of the ways to engage in an
experience together as a family, for instance, but also both for young and
adults when they come to visit the museum as a school class or whatever.
So that's one of the things that I'm really proud to have been able to
participate in and it's a great thing to experience people's joy when they
visit the museum and they see the vast variety of things that they can engage in.
And then we have had some projects with local schools that we've developed a
different kind of workshops for the kids from all the way down to when
they're before nursery school, actually, and all the way up to ninth grade.
And that's been interesting to also be in the project group about how do we do this?
how do we combine art and culture and nature in these workshops that
the kids have to go and visit?
So that's a, Two big things that I've just come to mind that I'm real
proud of participating in, yeah.
So a wide variety of projects there.
And from our previous conversation as well, I get the sense that we
have lots of things in common, lots of things that we're passionate
about, enthusiastic about.
I see your connections between museums and nature and art and
objects, but also connecting people with museums, the senses.
Tell me about some of the values that inform and drive your work.
Yeah, I think I've always been interested in how to connect things.
And I think the wanting to be a stage designer or a costume
designer, you can be able to connect things like a puzzle in a way.
So I think that's just broadened out in my work that I've had to work with
a lot of different people's education background or their cultural background.
And I think that's very interesting to see that a person who is mainly
based in their art world can connect with somebody that's mainly based
in the nature or science world.
so connecting for me is the essence of what I think that both a museum
can do or other experience places are able to do, if we want to.
Of course it can also be a hard task.
But I think the connecting is what drives me even though it's hard
to get these languages together.
And also, connecting with the visitors in the museum is also a big part of my job.
How is the connecting established from when you enter the door or
even before you enter the door.
And we've actually made a study group and I think I started the study
group maybe in 2019 or something.
And then Corona of course hit, but then one of my old colleagues
re engaged the group and we still talk about these challenges that
we have with how do we connect?
we meet up every three months and we talk about these things and it's a good
way to really dive into what it means.
Tell me about some of those challenges that you mentioned there.
What are the unique challenges that we have as educators, as museum people, with
connecting with people in the museum?
Yeah, I think that sometimes when you take a big museum all these groups that
actually work together with the hosts or the booking people or you as an educator
how much do we connect on a daily basis?
Because I think this is a very important base for us to establish
a good visit for the kids or for the teachers or for whatever group.
And I think the challenges is when we start talking about it.
what challenges do you have here with the booking?
What challenges do you have over here with the hosting?
What challenges do we have as educators?
Is there room in this exhibition today or whatever?
So I think that the challenges is that we definitely have to be better At
talking and developing things together.
are we actually ready to have this group visiting us today?
Are the hosts ready to greet this group of kids or whatever?
And we have to remember that we are actually, all of us are a team that
are a part of the relationship that the kids get to have with us at the museum.
And it also set a tone for you as an educator when you enter maybe for a
group that has had a terrible entry in the museum with a host who has been
angry at them or whatever it sets a tone for you when you do your workshop.
So I think that we have to think about all the steps that leads to the visit.
I also talked to you before about when do you start connecting?
And I think that you actually start connecting way before the visit.
And how do you do that?
Is it a big museum where it's just a booking that's online?
Or do you actually connect with a real person?
Is the teacher calm about going on a trip?
Or is it a substitute teacher going on a trip with this class
that he or she doesn't know?
So I think that there are some things to consider on when we connect and how
we connect and with who we connect.
Yeah, and as you say, it happens way before the group actually
physically set foot in the museum.
So those connections are being made when they look at the website.
So those connections are being made when we take a booking or when
we send them communication about the program or what to expect.
All of that is connection making in your eyes.
Yeah, it is because it sets a tone for also for expectations.
What does the teacher expect?
And we talked last time in our group about this.
What do the teachers expect when they've read your webpage?
Does that fulfill it?
Or could a An introduction video, could that be easier
because the teacher is busy?
Instead of a long piece of paper that you forget to read So I think that we
really have to be better at talking in the museum about how do we want to do this?
We talk a lot about, oh, we have to be good hosts and stuff.
But I think that we sometimes forget that it's all of us that
are the ones that connect with the guests that enters the door.
And that happens when you grasp the phone or when you book or
when they leave or whatever.
So I think that It could be a really interesting subject to dive into.
Yeah.
What else influences connection making there?
Cause we've got we've got the pre visit things that are going on there, but also
there are things that happen when people arrive in the actual building, when they
walk through the doors and they're looking around them and how they're greeted.
So, yeah.
What other factors
I've just had a visit from 29 students, and that's a lot in a small museum.
One of, we have four museums in the museum I work in, and our art museum is not big.
So 29 people in the small arrival area is a lot.
So, you also have to consider these things when they arrive.
What are we going to do?
Where are we putting the bags?
Where are we putting the jackets and stuff like that?
And it takes time.
if we then start to hurry people, oh, hurry put your bag over here,
and now we have to start, and oh, they have to go to the bathroom.
And how good are we at that?
Because it could be stressful if it's a group of let's say 10 year olds and that
are arriving and they've had a long bus trip and so I think that also especially
a focus on the arrival and what do we do?
And also that you as an educator you meet The class, of course, but
you also have a host that's there.
And if you both are good at getting everybody settled I think that The visit
is already getting off to a good start
Yeah, and I think you're absolutely right.
So we often are keen to get onto the content.
this is what the museum is all about.
The things, the objects, the collections.
But those first five, ten minutes are crucial.
They're so, so important.
And if people, as you say, feel rushed, you're not taking the time to
create trust, to build psychological safety, but also to give them time to,
perhaps see to their needs that they might have when they arrive as well.
Yeah, and I think you have a right point in what the connection is
really about, that it's about trust.
I maybe be their educator for a couple of hours.
I really want to stress that an hour is not enough.
That's also a challenge actually for some schools that, that they
have so short time, but I think that the baseline has to be that we want
to build some trust because I'm a stranger in their life and they've may
have had a bad morning or whatever.
So we really have to focus on trust.
And I think that's what the connection is about.
Often the kids didn't have a say that they should visit the museum.
It's the teacher's agenda.
And we have to find out how do we connect with these students so they feel that
this is also their place and their place for communicating about their ideas.
Maybe history or art or whatever.
So I think trust is a really good word to focus on actually with the connection.
Yeah.
And it's not easy.
So we have an hour, as you saying quite often, it's an hour and we'd all
like more, we would in an ideal world.
We'd like, at least an hour and a half, which allows time for settling
in and giving people time before we actually move on to the museum.
So how can you build trust within an hour long program?
I mean, it's a tall order, isn't it?
It's a very tall order.
And I think that what I do and sometimes it's, of course, it's not easy and
sometimes I don't succeed in it, but I think that for me, when I say hello
to the students, it's very important for me to really say hello to them and
meet their eye and present who I am.
and I tend to try and learn their names.
I love that actually.
So it's a challenge for me, of course but if I have the time, of course I really
want to learn their names because there is something in that we know each other's
names that builds something between us.
And of course, in a busy day and a busy setting.
And if it's like, say, the Natural History Museum in London,
I know it would be impossible.
But as we talked about when I was at my old job, we actually talked
about buying some tags where you can write the kids names with chalk
and then just wipe it out after.
Because there is something that I've seen you, and you are
here, and this is our space.
There's something about that connection that's it's amazing what conversations
I've sometimes had with kids that are only four or five years old about
archaeology or I've just had some kids that are about 20 years old, I had the
most beautiful conversation with them.
And I think that's when you really say, I see you.
You are here, and we're here together.
I don't know if it sounded corny.
I think it sounds great.
I think there's something about saying someone's name, isn't it?
That focuses the mind, and it's that connection.
Instant moment of connection when you mention someone's name.
Oh, Anya, it's bringing you into focus and getting your attention.
Are there other moments we should be thinking about for connection making?
So we've talked about pre entry, we've talked about entry.
What about during the program.
How are we making connections when we're with the group in the museum
in the main part of our program?
Yeah,
I usually let them walk around in couples and let them talk about
their art what they notice, what.
connects with them or whatever and it gets them all around
the room or whatever we are in.
And then I have a practice that I walk around and listen to the
conversations and maybe I engage in the conversation with them because
then I just have these two kids.
And can say, Oh what did you say?
And what did you notice?
And I heard you said this.
And so this is my way of connecting with them in a smaller group because sometimes
it's, it can be very intimidating to say something in this strange room.
And
I also use a "chatterbox" that's what I found out that was called.
This is
this origami game that we all know from childhood where you're opening
and closing a piece of paper.
Yeah,
exactly.
And in Danish we call it flip flop and in my childhood it was
called a spo, that sort of you can make a fortune telling thing.
So.
Many names, but a chatterbox, I actually like that name because
that's what it's supposed to do, that it starts a conversation.
Because sometimes when you just say, okay, walk around and talk amongst
yourself, and nobody says a lot, but the chatterbox for the smaller kids,
I would choose the question and have these chatterboxes ready for them.
And they can have these in pairs and walk around.
And if there's really small kids, you can have pictograms or icons.
So maybe it's a color or a shape that they should notice.
And for the bigger kids, I usually, then I can send it out before they visit the
museum and say they have to fill out with questions and when they get to the museum
they shift them into different groups so they don't get their own questions.
So I start a conversation that I can walk around and listen to and
then I gather them around and we start a conversation about a piece.
Yeah, I really like that idea.
I've also heard it called a paper fortune teller.
I didn't use that when I was growing up, but I can't remember what we did call it.
But I love that.
It's an element of chance, isn't it as well?
It's like, I guess, using museum cards, when you're just, You're
choosing a card at random.
And that's appealing to groups as well.
We're not on this routine where we're doing the same thing at every object.
There's a little bit of independence involved.
You're letting them go off on their own, a little bit of agency as well.
And you're also bringing in that small group connection.
So as you say, it can be really hard with a big group to try and
make connections with people.
And Also, it's harder for quieter people to speak up in front of the whole group.
Exactly.
It has a lot of key elements that I give the possibility for
everybody to speak in a way.
And exactly what you said about the autonomy, that's when you're in a sort
of an agenda that's not your own, then I give them a little bit of freedom.
You can walk around Having this and you can just choose which works
that you want to talk about and
So, so there's a, it's a bit of freedom in that as well.
And I think it's, it frees up the conversation actually.
Yeah.
And we were talking about connection making from many sides here.
So quite often people educators might think about connections
between themselves and the group, but it's also connections between.
The group themselves, so they may know each other quite often with a class,
they'll know each other, sometimes very well, sometimes not so well.
Other groups, they won't know each other.
So we want to encourage connection making within the group.
We also want to encourage connection making with the objects in our collection.
So how do you encourage that outside of these ideas you've already explained?
Yeah, we talked about that there's a lot of things that connects us.
I love the curious inquiry that the kids come with that I use to
talk about the works, of course.
And I really try not to have an agenda.
And sometimes, of course it's a bit needed that I have an agenda of a
point, but then I draw it back to me and say, this is what I think.
This is how I was feeling.
But sometimes to really connect with the piece, I also get them
to color a little color sample.
So it's not a drawing.
exercise.
It's just crayons and a piece of paper.
And I explained that we look at this work and we try and find
out what kind of colors have the artists used and how much of it.
So they draw a little square and then in this square, they
put the small blotches of paint.
And then we can talk about, Oh, he used a lot of blue and
then he used a small orange.
why do you think that is?
And then we can talk about a little bit about actually color theory.
so this is another way of connecting with the art piece and the color
sample they can bring home, of course.
Yeah, and I like the way of bringing in other ways of working
that you're talking about there.
Yeah.
As well, and bringing in the senses.
So you're a big fan of using the senses.
Can you tell us a little bit about that?
Yeah, I love that.
With smaller kids, maybe I would, I love suitcases and boxes.
So with smaller kids, I'll probably bring in some small suitcases because
then there's some surprise and we can open suitcases and I've done something
with small costumes and they relate to the artwork and they can put
them on and say, Oh, ballet skirt.
How does a ballet dancer look?
What do they look like when they do dance and stuff like that?
So, yeah, I love to use the senses because I think that if we just talk
like right now, we're just talking I think that we have a bigger chance
that we forget what we've experienced.
I think that when we actually give each other an opportunity to get down
in our bodies and that's why slow looking And these sort of elements
are important because they give us a chance to connect with our body.
So the senses with using smell or feeling something or trying to engage
with the artwork, I think it gets to be a more deeper experience with the art.
And I think it also makes us more aware of what art can do or what it means to us.
If that makes sense.
If you use smell, it's one of our strongest senses because it tends to
hit us in our memory sense in a way.
I've had a tour about a lady, an artist, who smoked cigarettes and
cigars so had tobacco with me when I made the tour because that's what
her studio would have smelled like.
And I've bought an artwork in a thrift shop and had a canvas that you can
touch because I think that when you can connect with the artwork in these
kind of ways, I think you remember the artwork in a deeper way and maybe connect
with a memory or something like that.
At the Bremen Art Museum I was in October, they had these sensory
areas, sensory boxes for people who are visually challenged.
But I saw a lot of other guests using these because you can touch the
artwork and you're not usually allowed.
So I think that was very beautiful.
And just walking around observing what people started to talking talk about.
Yeah, I love those as well.
Whenever there's any invitation to use any other senses, I'm always diving in there.
So can you tell us a little bit about you mentioned slow looking there.
So how do you encourage slow looking?
How do you encourage your groups to slow down?
How do you encourage them to look for longer?
I think it's about allowing the pause when I ask them, What do you see here?
What do you notice here?
And also, hopefully having built the trust they are allowing the break to
be there or the pause to be there.
But I think it's tough because I think that students often, are trying to figure
out what does the lady want me to say now.
So I think actually slow looking is something that we should encourage even
more than what we're already doing.
And that's why I say that the hour is a short period of time
when you have to slow look.
But I've done it.
Actually by walking in nature where we have these silent
walks and that's very effectful.
And I don't know if it's easier outside.
than inside in an art museum, but there's a difference.
So, one of my things that I'm working on trying to encourage more that it's okay
to look at something a little bit longer.
I had an example of the other day where I asked the students, do you think that the
artists who have used two years doing this would like for you just to look at it 30
seconds and then walk to the next word.
And they laugh and they say, no, because the artists have used a lot of time
and thoughts and sketches and whatever.
So, I think that it has again to do with connection in the way that you
tell them about what slow looking is.
And also telling them about what you're expecting from them so
that they're not looking for the right answer or guess what's in
your head or any of that as well.
That's what, that's actually something I start all my presentations of myself
with, that this is an open room and what they bring onto the conversation.
That's what I.
connect with and use.
I actually had a situation yesterday with a class that was really a quiet
high school class they just started.
And I had a plan to talk about a specific work before we were done.
And then then I heard two girls talking about two of the works next to it,
and there was before they were sitting down and everything, and I just said,
okay, you found something in this, tell us why did you talk about this?
And then we had a whole conversation about that, and that was actually a
really nice thing that you can catch on to what the students connect with.
Yeah.
And you're going off plan there, aren't you?
So you're not being afraid to deviate from your plan and go, okay, something
interesting happening over here.
Yeah.
Let's see what happens.
Yeah.
And sometimes also the conversation you have about a certain piece, it
takes a longer time that you might have planned because then the conversation
builds on And I love for the students to begin to listen to each other.
I was at a course last year in Copenhagen at one of our national art museums and
they Make a workshop that I've used since, and it's a great way that when you
have an artwork and actually also want to get the kids to engage all of them,
everybody can say something, you make groups and then you give them titles.
And you have maybe a group that are theater instructors.
And then you have a group that are politicians and biologists or whatever,
and then you make them look at the piece in that way, and then they
have to tell each other about what did you notice, and it's amazing
what they details they find that
. otherwise they wouldn't have noticed.
And also, because they don't have the same assignment, they are actually more
interested in what each other are saying.
So that was a great to be introduced to, and I've used it since.
I love that.
Such a great idea, asking people to try on professions or and
look at through that lens of that particular profession or person.
That's great.
Tell me about drawing yoga before we move on, cause I did want to get
it in, cause it sounds fascinating.
Yeah, and it is, I actually used it yesterday.
I started up my art school again.
And I don't know if there's other terms for it, but I usually in my my art
school or maybe a tour in a museum, if there's room for it you get a piece of
paper and a drawing plate and a crayon or a pencil or something like that.
And then you lie down on the floor.
with that.
And I play some music or I tell a story.
And then sometimes I have some meditation cards with shapes and sizes
or whatever on, and then I can show them.
Now you draw this and then they just draw.
And I take another card and now you draw this and they just
fill out the paper in that way.
Sometimes I ask them to close their eyes and just listen to what
I'm telling them with the music.
And it's just a great way to just unwind.
And I can tell that the kids love it.
They just I had a girl yesterday, she was like, Oh, can we take some more cards?
And the parents were there to get them.
So they were not ready to stop.
And I think it's, it also shows you when kids.
They actually like the peace and quiet and they like to wind down
and it's not performing anything.
It's just drawing and it's not something that should be
a finished work or whatever.
But it's just a great way to yeah, to just be yourself.
And they lie on the, under the tables or behind the chairs or
whatever, but it's just their room and their space and their drawing.
I love the sound of that.
And I'd like to try it with adults as well.
I think they'd enjoy it just as much.
Yeah, exactly.
Yeah.
And what a great way to finish or round off a program.
So we've talked about connection making, before, during, what
about how you, you finish?
How do you exit a program, making those lasting and meaningful
connections with people?
Yeah, usually either I can ask them what are the three main things that
they take away and then just in the broad sense, asking them, and usually
they're kids that tell you something.
And maybe I round off with something about the artist, talking about how
his life was or what his challenges was or something like that.
and sometimes I actually also do this with putting them in circles and an inner
circle and an outer circle, and then they have partners and then tell each
other what three things they notice.
And then I again can walk around and I can listen and then I can ask them
what did you mean by that and they can tell the class and so it depends
on how much time I have, but usually there's much not much time in an hour.
So it might be the closing thing just asking the class or telling
something about the artist.
And why do you think that's important?
I mean, I think a lot of people listening will know that it's important to do, but
quite often with the pace of a program, the thing that gets left is the rounding
out, the good close, the nice ending.
So why is it important?
Think that the connection that you've built in the beginning It also has
to have a finish because of course we want them to come back to the museum.
And I think the rounding of the workshop is, important in them again feeling seen.
It shouldn't be rushed.
So, and also when they articulate what three things they noticed or what
they take away I take them Seriously.
And it depends on the class, of course, if they're nine year
olds, they want to say everything.
And they're teenagers, they may not say that much.
So, you have to prepare for that, of course.
Yeah.
And I think you're making those memories, aren't you?
You're making people really just crystallize what it was about today
that I'm going to talk to someone about afterwards or remember.
Yeah, and I think what our main assignment actually is, getting
the kids to have nuances.
It's about talking about art because now we've asked them to look at
art, but we are asking them to have a greater vocabulary about art.
So, that's why I think it's important not to forget this.
Yeah.
And we've We're going to wrap it up now because we only have a certain amount
of time together as well, like we would with a group, but perhaps you can share
with people how they can find out more about you and get in touch with you.
Yeah, I have a project that I'm working on with an old colleague.
We want to do more about it, but it's called Oplevkulturen Samm.
Experience culture together.
It's a Instagram and on Facebook and I've sent you a link.
And we want to do more about that.
But there we can be connected.
And also of course, on LinkedIn, you can find me under Anja Høegh.
And of course through my museum where I work, right now Museum Salling.
It's also a possibility to connect with me.
And I would really love to hear from people.
Well, thank you so much for coming on the podcast and sharing your wealth
of experience and lots of ideas and practical tips and tools for people.
Yeah, it's been great to talk to you, Claire.
Thank you so much.
Cheers.
So a huge thank you to Anja for being on the podcast today.
Be sure to check out the show notes to learn more about her work.
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in the show notes and contribute to the ongoing costs of running the podcast.
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Reimagining guided experiences in museums.
Visit the show notes or my website to sign up.
That just about wraps up this episode.
Thank you so much for tuning in.
I'll see you next time.
Bye.
You've been listening to The Art Engager podcast with me, Claire Bown.
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