We have a lot of the beginner athletes ride a wide variety of power because they're just not used to pedaling so efficiently to keep their power.

And anybody who's tried to ride in a range of power outside with the elements, wind and different changes in terrain will find that a really difficult thing to do.

And I would love to hear anybody who thinks that it's easy because it is the most hardest thing to get right in the whole of triathlon.

Foreign.

Hello and welcome once again to the Tridarc podcast.

This is the May 16, 2025 edition and I'm your host, Jeff Sankoff, an emergency physician, triathlete, triathlon coach, and multiple Ironman finisher coming to you as always from beautiful sunny Denver, Colorado.

That voice you heard at the top of the program was that of Gerard Donnelly.

He and his son Jordy are my guests today.

They are the duo who run Trivelo coaching out of Australia and also have the podcast called Train Smarter, Race Faster.

It's a great show and they are a fascinating duo and I really enjoyed having them as guests.

We discuss their coaching philosophy, the podcast that they run, and how they approach working with everybody from beginners all the way up to pros and the different experiences that they've had.

For those of you who enjoyed the episode recently, recently where Juliet and I discussed our own coaching philosophies, I know that you're going to find this one interesting as well.

I definitely enjoyed that conversation.

Before we get to that, I am going to be joined by my colleague and friend Juliet for the Medical Mailbag.

We are going to discuss the not.

So recent now, I guess it's a.

Little bit more remote past, but we're going to talk about the vlog that the one and only Lionel Sanders put up just a little bit ago where he discussed some blood tests that he had that concerned him a little bit.

Specifically, he had his hemoglobin A1C level checked and it came back a little bit out of the range of normal.

He was concerned that the carbohydrate rich diet, especially in the form of the sugars that we get in gels and energy drinks, could be leading to him being pre diabetic.

What does that mean for him?

What does that mean for you?

And is this something we actually need to be concerned about?

Juliet and I are going to look at the science of all of that and that's coming up in just a short bit.

Before I get to that though, I did want to just give a brief opinion and a brief sort of thought on this past weekend's race that took place in St.

George, because the aforementioned Lionel Sanders really took that race by the neck and throttled it the way he did in Oceanside.

It was really impressive.

Lionel came out of the water only about 2 1/2 minutes back of the leaders.

And I was watching remotely on my tracker.

And when I saw Lionel coming out as close as he was to the front of the pack, I figured it was probably going to be his day.

And I was not wrong.

He went out there and just obliterated the bike, catching many of the 20 or so.

I think it was even more than that.

I think it was about 25 people who had come out of the water ahead of him.

And by the time he got to the run and laid down the absolute astonishing 111 run split on really, really just a super challenging course, the race was never in doubt.

He handily defeated Sam Long, who had his typical type of swim, came from behind, but then was able to lay down a very strong bike and run to finish.

Magnus Dytlov did not have the kind of day that we had thought he might, thinking that he would have rounded out the podium of the Big Three, but a flat tire beset him.

And after a conversation I had with my friend and colleague Matt Sharp, who raced in St.

George as well, but a conversation I had with him on our sister podcast, Tempo Talks, where we were discussing Christian Blumenfeld's problems with the flat tire in Oceanside, I had wondered whether or not pro triathletes would start carrying their own flat.

Karen.

Unfortunately, Magnus did not, and he was left at the side of the road waiting for neutral bike support that cost him any chance of getting into the top five or so.

@ any rate, this is the final time we will see that race run in St.

George.

And before I get to my thoughts on that, I should mention on the women's side, Paula Finlay also taking this race similar to how she did in Oceanside, winning it with really even less doubt than Oceanside, where she was challenged by Jackie Herring.

Jackie Herring finished third in this one, but Paul Findlay really took the lead early in the run and was never really in doubt.

She had a sensational bike, had her usual very strong swim, and again, just like on the men's side, it was not much of a race at the front where the two Canadians just really dominated all day long.

But St.

George is a race that now recedes into the history and the lore of Ironman racing.

And I, for one, am a little bit sad for that When Rock Fry was the designer of this race many years ago when it first came out, his idea was to have a really difficult race that challenged triathletes and made them have to earn their medals for finishing a 70.3.

And this course over the years has proven time and time again to be exactly that.

One of the hardest races on the circuit.

And I for one am going to miss it.

I did that race twice as just a regular 70.3 and twice when it was a world championship.

Both times those world championship courses were really diabolical.

It's already a difficult course.

It's just a regular race.

But for the world championships they even made the course even more difficult, if that is even possible.

But they somehow managed to.

And it's really sad that this course and this race is disappearing off the calendar because it was one of the gems.

I think just a beautiful setting, magnificent bike course, very challenging run, but in a beautiful place and I think it's going to be missed.

I also wonder if it's not kind of a harbinger of things to come.

As races have become more and more successful, the communities have grown up around them and become less tolerant of having the disruption that these races bring, even if it is just for one weekend a year.

We've seen like Placid make a lot of noise about not wanting the race to there, even though it is one of the original Ironman races on the circuit.

And Kona of course, infamously not particularly thrilled about having Ironman there, even if it is again a huge boon to their local economy.

So you have to wonder if the.

Disappearance of successful popular and races that bring a lot of money to a local economy can't succeed then what does that mean for other races that are maybe a little bit more on the bubble?

We'll have to see.

A race like Oral Oregon takes place in Salem, which is a really kind of a mid to moderate city.

It's been extraordinarily popular, sells out very, very quickly, clearly brings a lot of revenue to the city.

But will it go the same way?

Will the citizens also there be less than tolerant after a few years?

I don't know.

I'd hate to see other great races disappear as well.

Hopefully there will be a way for Ironman to figure out a way to keep these races viable over time.

Maybe they take a holiday and maybe move the race to a different locale for a few years and then bring it back.

I don't know.

I don't know what the answer is.

I just wish that we could have more welcoming environments, welcoming communities, and then be able to find a way to be long lasting there.

Anyways.

RIP St.

George it was a great send off in terms of the pro race.

I understand the age group races went off as well in their usual spectacular fashion and like I said, I for one will miss it.

What do you think?

I'd love to hear your opinions.

Were you there?

Did you partake?

I do want to give a quick shout out to a couple of longtime Tridarc podcast listeners who were both at the race and did very well, Both having top 10 finishes in their age group, Rebecca Adamson and Brian Dunn.

But I'd love to hear from others who might have been there as well.

Send me a line, send me a note tridocloud.com or of course you can put your comments in the Tridoc Podcast Facebook group.

If you're not a member, just search for Tridock Podcast on that platform, answer the three easy questions you can, and get admittance into the group.

I'd love to see your comments and of course hear any questions that you might have for consideration for the Medical Mailbag on an upcoming episode.

Speaking of the Medical Mailbag, why don't we get to that right now as I am joined by my friend, my colleague, Juliet Hockman.

After this very short break.

It'S time once again for the Medical Mailbag, that segment of the program when I'm joined by my friend and colleague Juliette Hockman.

Juliet, how are you?

I am really well, and you?

I am doing terrific.

You're out on the east coast visiting with your folks.

How's that going?

I am on the East Coast.

I family sprinkled from Maine down to D.C.

and so every time I come out it's a full sweep to make sure I see them all.

So yes, I'm happy to do this with you even though I'm in a.

Different time zone and I think that most of our listeners know.

But Juliet, a former Olympic rower, did your college rowing at Harvard and you're there there as part of this swing.

You're going to be doing something at Harvard.

So what's coming up this weekend?

That's right.

That's right.

So this weekend is the formal reopening of a five year restoration of these two century old boathouses.

One on the Cambridge side of the river, one on the Boston side of the river.

One is the women's boathouse, one is the men's boathouse.

So after years of delay because of the pandemic and a whole lot of monies they're reopening these two beautiful buildings, and they've decided to make a huge event out of it.

So there'll be 800 male and female Harvard alumni rowers there for dinner on Saturday night and a whole bunch of events for 24 hours beforehand, including some reunion rows.

So I'll be getting back into the boat for the first time in probably 10 years.

There's been a lot of really funny banter about this across the generations because all of the women will be boating up and getting out there.

So I'm really looking forward to it.

It's a great group of people.

There will be a lot of food consumed because rowers eat a lot.

Even when we get old, it'll be a really.

It's a really solid family of athletes.

So I'm really looking forward.

All right, now we're gonna go off.

We're gonna go off on a tangent a little bit, but it's a rowing tangent, so you'll be happy.

So.

So educate me at.

In college, are there the various boats, or is it all eights in college?

So in the United States, everybody rows eights.

And so at a large university, you'll have a one V, which is an eight.

One first varsity, first varsity eight, second varsity eight.

And then you may have a third varsity eight, or you may have a couple of fours.

They may split it into two fours.

And so the premier boat is the Varsity 8.

Eight people.

And then it goes down from there, depending on the depth of the program.

And at some universities in the United States, we also have lightweights, and you have heavyweights.

And that is a weight classification which also exists at the Olympics.

Not all universities have that, but certainly the.

The older east coast universities do.

And that's very funny because it's the only time that you're actually legally allowed to call women heavyweight weights.

Now.

Now, I would imagine that the heavyweights are the bigger, stronger rowers, but lightweights would have a lesser draft in the water.

So who's faster?

Yeah.

No.

Oh, heavyweights by a long shot.

Heavyweight.

So lightweight men are about.

It's done in kilograms, but it's about 160 for the boat.

Average.

And lightweight women, again, it's done in kilograms, but it's about 128 pounds for the average of the boat.

And you can have a little people a little bit bigger and a little bit smaller, but you have to average the boat at a certain weight, and you weigh in that morning.

It's a big thing.

Everybody takes off all their clothes and starts to spit and the whole thing.

And they all weigh in but the heavyweights, Those guys are 200 pounds.

They are big, strong men.

And the women are pretty big and strong too.

And so there's no question that the heavyweights will always be faster than the lightweights.

The drag element is in the hull.

It's not in the bodies of the people.

Okay.

And that's interesting about the weighing because my wife and I in high school, pole vault, the girls have to weigh in because of.

Yeah, because in high.

So polls are rated based on weight.

In college, they don't.

They don't adhere to it.

Women can jump on a pole that they.

Their weight exceeds the poll rating, but most don't.

Most of the time.

Most of the time, if you're good enough to be jumping in college, you're jumping on a pole that's actually higher than your weight rating.

Because a higher weight rating is a stiffer pole.

It tends to give you more height.

But in high school, a lot of the girls, more novice, they want a softer pole.

They want a pole that will be rated for a lower weight.

And so they have this whole thing where they weigh all the.

They weigh all the girls and the boys and they are very strict about if you weigh 120, you're to use a pole that's rated for a lower weight.

And it's a purportedly a safety thing.

But my wife and I are always appalled that they're doing this in public because with girls, especially at that age, it is a big thing.

And so all these girls have to watch their weights and everybody else is watching and it's always a little bit awkward.

Was it ever an issue for these college girls?

It's.

I think it's part of the deal, right?

I mean, for pole vaulting, it's a safety issue.

For rowing a lightweight guy or lightweight woman, particularly the guys, if you're 155 or 160 pound guy, you're never going to make the heavyweight team.

Those guys are so much bigger and stronger.

So this is actually an opportunity for you to be able to still compete in a very high level, even though you're a smaller individual.

I think that they're probably pretty discreet and probably pretty careful when the women weigh in.

It is a boat average.

So it's a collective effort.

Right.

Which might be feel a little bit different.

I do remember that the Olympic team summer when we were all training, we had to weigh in the heavyweight.

Cause of course, rowing, we were heavyweight, but had to weigh in every single morning.

And we had to write it up on a chart right above the scale.

And so that was a little bit of a mind mess.

Right.

Moving back, whatever, Three, four decades ago, because you watched everybody else's weight and your weight, and that was a little bit weird, but that was also a totally different generation and whatever.

And did the coxswains fit into this?

Did they have to weigh.

Yeah.

So the coxswain weight, you cannot weigh less than 99 pounds.

So the coxswains try to get as close to 99 as they can without going under.

Because if you go under, you have to carry sand.

Oh, wow.

Okay.

Yeah.

But you can put the sand anywhere you want in the boat.

You can put it in the middle, you can put it in the bow, you can put wherever.

And so the coxes tend to get pretty darn close to 99.

And.

Yeah, and that's why you have.

In the collegiate level, you have females coxing men's boats.

Wow.

Okay.

They can be lighter.

Interesting.

Anyway, huge tangent.

We're talking about sugar.

Let's talk about sugar.

We are, but it's not so, you see, it's not that far off because we're talking about sugar, we're talking about weight, we're talking about all these things.

Juliet, I know you're not a huge follower of the professional triathlon circuit, but I know that you've heard of the one Lionel Sanders.

One guy.

No, I'm not that bad.

I actually follow pretty well.

I just don't watch every single person's YouTube and everything like that.

Well, Lionel.

Lionel puts out a pretty regular vlog, and recently it's going back, I guess, probably a few weeks.

Eight weeks.

Yeah.

Let's go now.

He was talking about how he went to see his doctor, he had some blood tests.

I don't know why he had these blood tests done, but whatever.

He had some blood tests done.

And he was particularly surprised by his hemoglobin A1C.

And we'll get to what that is in a second.

But his hemoglobin A1C was above the normal cutoff.

And he was not happy about this.

He was told or he had read.

I wasn't sure where he got his information from, but he felt that he.

This was an indication that he was pre diabetic.

And he was opining in his vlog that all of the carbohydrate gels, all of the high carbohydrate mixes that we're taking in as triathletes and as endurance athletes was contributing to his high hemoglobin A1C and was potentially setting us up to be diabetics later in life.

I was not surprised that after this came out, I had several people write to me.

Inquiries.

Right.

Yeah.

And so I wanted to address this.

And so Cosette Rhodes, one of the interns, she took a deep dive into what evidence there is on this topic.

And not surprisingly, there is quite a bit.

So, first of all, we should talk about hemoglobin A1c, because that was the lab result that kind of started all of this.

Hemoglobin A1C is short for acetylated hemoglobin.

Acetylated hemoglobin, basically, as glucose, is broken down, it produces all kinds of byproducts.

And if there is very high amounts of glucose in the blood over periods of time, then a little acetyl group gets added to our hemoglobin.

And if you have high amounts of glucose, then the.

The amount of acetylated hemoglobin goes up.

So you can measure your acetylated hemoglobin.

And the acetyl group gets plopped down on a certain place in the hemoglobin, which is basically the sort of number one carbon.

I can't remember exactly where, but.

So if you look at the concentration of hemoglobin A1C or 1 acetylated hemoglobin, hemoglobin, and look at that concentration, it gives you a pretty good measure of how your glucose is controlled.

So it's followed in diabetics specifically, because for people who are not diabetics, their hemoglobin A1C is always gonna be in a normal range.

It's generally less.

I think.

Don't wanna.

Please don't quote me, but I think it's less than 5 is the amount.

And I can't even remember what the units are, but less.

I'm just making this up right now, but I think.

I believe it's less than 5.

And if you're a diabetic, you want that number to be less than, I think, 6 or 7.

Because if it's less than 6 and 7, it suggests that you're doing a good job with your insulin.

You're doing a good job with whatever medication you're taking to control your glucose.

It means your glucose is not running particularly high.

Everything is good.

And in fact, a measure of how well your doctor is controlling your diabetes is to measure hemoglobin A1C.

So if your hemoglobin A1C is elevated, it suggests that you're running high levels of blood glucose.

Routinely and that is not a good thing for diabetics.

What if you're not a diabetic like Lionel?

What if you have a sort of above normal hemoglobin A1C as he did?

Now, I want to be very clear.

Lionel Sanders does not have diabetes.

His hemoglobin A1C was not in the level that an uncontrolled diabetic would have.

It just had a higher than if the cutoff is 4 or 5, his was like 5.5 or 6.

So it was higher than the normal sort of threshold, but it wasn't as high as you would see in a diabetic.

This notion that somebody is pre diabetic is a little bit of hand waving.

There's no.

It's like I used to see people in the emergency department.

They would come in and say, I think I had pre seizures.

And I'm like, pre seizures?

Yeah, we all have pre seizures.

We're either pre seasoning or we're having a seizure or we're post seizing.

But diabetes is the same thing, diabetes.

Or we're in a state where we don't, but maybe we will at some point.

So we're pre diabetes.

But pre diabetes is a hand wave.

There's no clinical diagnosis of prediabetes.

So if your hemoglobin A1C is a little bit elevated, you're technically not really pre diabetic.

You just have an elevated hemoglobin A1C.

So what does that mean?

Is it clinically relevant?

Is it clinically significant?

All of the literature, all of the evidence that we could find suggests that no, it doesn't really mean anything, especially for athletes.

We also don't know what the test before this one was.

So we don't know if this is a trend where it's going right or going down.

So we have no standard, we have no yardstick.

That is an excellent point.

Thank you.

Something I should have brought up myself, so thank you for holding me accountable.

Now, so let's just talk about type 2.

So diabetes comes in two flavors.

There's two.

Type 1 diabetes used to be called juvenile diabetes.

It most commonly it actually occurs in two ages.

Peaks in children between the ages of 10 and or 8 and 12, and then again in adults between the ages of 20 and 25, I believe.

And it is often an autoimmune problem where the beta islet cells of the pancreas, which are responsible for making insulin, get attacked by our immune system, get wiped out and we are no longer able to produce insulin.

Without insulin, we Cannot get glucose into our cells.

A whole bunch of hormonal things then occur, but the end result is that we have very high blood glucose, and that is diabetes.

Diabetes actually means sweet urine.

Oh, that's charming.

And the reason for that is because sugar is spilled when it gets above a certain amount.

Sugar is spilled into our urine.

And all of the problems that occur with diabetes, at least initially when it occurs long term stuff with diabetes is related to cardiovascular problems, eye problems, immune problems.

But when a person is first diagnosed with diabetes, they can get in something called diabetic ketoacidosis.

And one of the major issues is related to significant dehydration, because glucose, as it's spilled into the urine, it pulls a lot of water with it.

Sure.

You get very profoundly dehydrated.

Anyways, the urine with all of its glucose in it is very sweet.

And diabetes.

Sweet urine.

You can imagine how diabetes was initially diagnosed.

Diagnosed, yes.

Nice.

Good.

All right, let's bring it back.

Bring in the urine taster.

So that was type 1 diabetes.

Type 2 diabetes occurs in people who still produce insulin but have a resistance to the effects of insulin.

And this is seen in older people, usually in their 40s and above.

And it's almost invariably seen in people who are overweight.

Yes.

And there are a variety of acute and chronic mechanisms by which this comes about.

But most of the theories are that people who are overweight are chronically eating foods that are very high in sugar.

They're chronically secreting very high levels of insulin, and as a result, their cells just become more and more inured to this high level of insulin.

And eventually they developed this kind of resistance to the fact that insulin is around.

And they don't take up as much glucose as they should.

Glucose ends up sitting in their bloodstream.

And so they end up with high levels of blood glucose, and they end.

Up with type 2 diabetes.

Type 2 diabetes was not a disease that was even known until the latter part of the last century because didn't see this abundance of food and this abundance of process obesity.

And so it is really a disease of the industrialized world.

Exactly.

So this idea that Lionel and another athlete, an endurance runner, Ultra endurance runner by the name of Peter Attia, who has written a book.

Oh, yeah.

About his own experience.

I didn't know about his name because that brought it to my attention.

Oh, I'm thinking of a different Atiya.

Okay.

I think.

Anyway, go ahead.

Sorry.

And so Peter Attia was a ultra runner.

He also had an elevated hemoglobin, A1C and wrote a book about how he felt that his issues and the issues of athletes in general could be related to all of this carbohydrate fueling.

And it just.

On the surface it makes sense, right?

We're eating a lot of glucose.

It totally makes sense.

We take such good care of our diet on a day to day basis.

We cut out all the bad stuff and we're eating really well.

And then we this super sweet stuff in our water bottles and especially when we're getting ready for racing and all the gels and is disgusting, but it is efficient.

Yeah, yeah.

So what is the science?

The science is this.

Being overweight, taking in huge amounts of sugar definitely leads to type 2 diabetes.

No question, being athletic, regardless of your weight type, but being athletic has a very huge protective effect against type 2 diabetes.

Like just gigantic.

To the point that.

But to the point that very large studies done across decades now, going back as far as like 1992, have shown that athletes secrete higher amounts of insulin because they are continuously active and taking in sugar to fuel their activity.

And yet they don't develop the insulin resistance because something to do with being active and then the need for that sugar in your cells as fuel overcomes whatever it is that leads to type 2 diabetes in the sedentary and overweight type of people.

So athleticism and being active overcomes a lot of these other things that we see that are associated with diabetes.

So that is hugely important.

The other thing we know is that carbohydrate availability is incredibly important in athletics.

And for those people who continue to use the glucose monitors, there are still a few out there.

They will see that when they take in gels, when they take in some of this stuff, their glucose will spike.

There's no question.

It gets into a above normal kind of comes down very quickly because you have a functioning pancreas that secretes insulin and you know very quickly that sugar is taken up by your cells where it's needed and it's used as metabolic fuel.

So that transient hyperglyce, hyperglycemia, while theoretically could be detrimental to health.

We know that hypoglycemia, not having adequate carbohydrates, not having adequate sugar is significantly worse that if you go into a glucose deficit because you're not fueling with carbohydrates, you cannot perform at the same levels.

You become keto.

Sure.

And we've talked about this a lot on your podcast.

Yeah.

And so over and over again we've seen in literature, in our, in science and through our own experience, we know that carbohydrates are very much.

Now, there has never been a study that actually followed athletes for very long times, looked at their hemoglobin A1Cs, looked to see if they eventually went on to develop diabetes.

That just has not been done.

It would be fascinating to actually do that.

But there is so much evidence that shows that being active is protective against diabetes.

Against diabetes.

Yeah.

Peter Attia himself writing the, talking about his own experience with hemoglobin A1C, throwing out all of these warnings, saying, hey, we have to be careful, he did not develop a diabetes.

And Lionel Sanders, I feel very confident in saying he too will not go on to develop diabetes.

I think this is just one more example of sometimes you can get these kinds of markers, you can get these kinds of tests and it gives you information that in context is not helpful, it's helpful and it leads you to potentially do other tests or it leads you that are unnecessary.

I want everybody who heard Lionel and who might be listening now to, number one, not worry for Lionel's going to be fine.

And number two, not worry for yourself.

Yeah, don't go get a CBC just to.

Because you're worried about this marker.

Yeah, don't go get this marker done.

And number two, don't change the way you're fueling for your workouts and for your exercise.

Yes, you should keep your body weight under control.

Yes, you should keep yourself active.

And yes, you can continue to fuel with gels, carbohydrates, as long as it's not excessive.

You want to make sure that it's in balance.

That's a take home here.

Yeah.

As you know, when you, it's like when you go and you think your kid has a peanut allergy, which is super dangerous.

Right.

So you go and you test them for peanut.

But the allergist does all the other scratch tests as well.

Right.

And a whole bunch of them have a tiny little reaction and all of.

A sudden you're allergic to everything.

Exactly.

So don't go looking for something that's not there.

And I've talked about things like the, ah, shoot.

What was it called?

There's just, oh, now I'm going to forget.

But there, there's this service that you can like send your blood in and they'll do 80 different markers and tell you, oh, your, this is low and your, that is high.

And now you need to do.

And this is a problem.

Right.

This is why in medicine we, we have to be careful with what tests we do because there's always false positives, there's all negatives.

And the false positives can really be a problem because if you get a false positive on a test, it leads you to do more testing.

It leads you to make changes that necessary.

Have been necessary.

Right.

Because every test has parameters that in terms of how to read it, but also the context that the test is coming back in.

And in hemoglobin A1C that's borderline elevated for somebody like Lionel is just.

But also it can depend a little bit on what you ate that morning too.

And a bunch of other things I.

Believe, isn't that hemoglobin A1C is not so much affected.

Yeah.

Hemoglobin A1C is something that measures over a fairly long period of time.

You're absolutely right.

Like when you get a fasting, you need that for things like cholesterol, ldl, whatever you ate will definitely impact that.

But for a hemoglobin A1C, it's.

That one is more of a.

It's showing you chronic.

Yeah.

So I mean, I also think, as we mentioned a few minutes ago, it's really helpful as you are your own.

You have to be your own doctor.

Right.

You have to be your own health advocate to understand where things are over time.

There was about a four or five year period where I was really tracking my ferritin closely because it had gone very dangerously low.

And then it was okay, I'm going to go every three months or so and I'm going to see if what I'm doing is making a difference, et cetera, et cetera.

But that was a particular marker and we're looking at over time and there was a good reason for it.

And so I think again, it's, as you said, what's the context, what's the trend?

What behaviors should I be changing, if any, and why?

Understanding that.

And I think, you know, that that's a great example, Julia.

There was an indication to do the test and then there was an indication to make a change and then to follow the sequential tests.

And that's hugely important.

I think that is.

I think that's a pretty good high level overview of this question.

And I think we have, I feel like a pretty concrete answer here.

Electrolyte solutions, all of the things we're taking for fueling, they're not going to cause diabetes.

And so we're comfortable with that.

And so what you're doing.

Awesome fuel, people.

Yeah, yeah.

That's the answer to this question that came from several different people.

If you have a question that you'd like for us to consider answering on the program.

I hope that you'll send it in.

You could email it@tridocloud.com or you could drop it in on the Facebook group.

Look for Tridoc podcast on that platform.

Answer the three easy questions and we will grant you admittance.

You can join the conversation, leave your comments about the show, but anything you'd like us to discuss or submit a question for answering there.

Juliet, always a pleasure.

I look forward to chatting with you again on the next episode.

Look forward to it.

My guests on the podcast today are a father and son duo, Gerard and Jordy Donnelly, who run a triathlon coaching podcast and program dedicated to help you improve as an athlete.

If you're a triathlete competing in Ironman Ironman 70.3 or Olympic triathlon, it's very much for you.

Trivelo is the coaching company and Train Smarter, Race Faster is their podcast.

Gerard Donnelly is also a former Australian Ironman champion himself.

Together with his son, they help beginner age groupers all the way through to pro athletes perform at their best.

Before I introduce them formally and just bring them in here, I just want to read a few of Gerard's palm arrays because they're quite impressive.

Australian Ironman champion, 1988 Australian duathlon champion, 1988 Australian Ironman runner up in 89 Australian Commonwealth Games team, Auckland, New Zealand triathlon, 1990 and then the Australian Masters champion in all of 2014, 15 and 17.

That is quite a phenomenal resume.

Gerard, Jordy, welcome to the tridog podcast.

It's a real pleasure to have you both here.

Thank you for having us.

Yeah, so I am really excited to talk to you both because you both run a very successful coaching company, a coaching AI podcast, and I really like what you do on the podcast with open with your moment of gratitude, which I think is awesome.

I should probably steal that and just make it a part of mine.

But for now, since you're both here, I'd love to know if you have a moment of gratitude you'd like to share to open up this segment.

Why don't we start with you, Jordi?

That's a really great one.

And the best thing about us forcing ourselves to do it on the podcast each week is you really are almost held accountable to gratitude and looking for things throughout the week.

And dad and I always joke because we're looking for things to say on the podcast, which is just a great reminder and I'll put one just then.

I just came Back from a bike session.

And I live in Indonesia, and actually over the weekend there was a religious day where the whole country shuts down and you're not allowed to leave the house.

And it's a really nice kind of practice to just slow down and not leave the house.

And you don't hear any noise.

There's no lights for a whole day.

And then since then, the air has been so clear because it can be a little bit polluted here.

And we've got great views to the volcanoes.

And so on my ride this morning, I was looking at the two major volcanoes on the island, and I was just feeling really grateful for that.

I have to say my little moment of gratitude here.

Now we're recording this early in April.

You won't hear this until I get back from my trip to Indonesia.

And it turns out that Jordy lives in Bali, exactly where I'm going.

So he and I are going to get a chance to meet up in person, which is pretty cool.

Can't wait.

Gerard, how about you?

Do you have a moment something Gratitude?

Yeah.

I love this component of our podcast and it really makes you think a lot about what am I grateful for?

And it makes you stop and think.

And that's actually one of the good things about doing it.

And just this meeting here that we're having this opportunity to talk to someone on the other side of the world about the passionate things that we love doing.

And I'm just grateful for these opportunities.

That's as simple as mine is today.

Ah, that's great.

I'm grateful to have you both here as well, and I look forward to this conversation.

So recently, Juliet and I, my colleague and friend, a coach at LifeSport, we had a chance to share our coaching philosophies with the listeners, and they really enjoyed hearing that.

And.

And I think my listeners would also just love to hear what are some of the foundational principles that you bring to coaching?

And I think there'll probably be a lot of similarities, but I'm really interested if being in Australia, going through a different kind of foundation in terms of the training that you do for coaching.

What are some of the things that you prioritize when you work with athletes, be they beginners or be they someone who's more versed in the sport?

And I'll begin with you, Jordi, and then we'll move to Gerard.

It.

Yeah, it's a great point.

We actually, we, because we coach online, we.

We do get a range of actually athletes internationally, and so we do get to see some Differences in culture.

And really we don't believe that there's many differences in terms of what the training needs or how we've brought up in terms of the triathlon sport.

Especially now that nowadays with everything online, all the secrets are being shared.

We get so such great access to what the pros are doing.

All the pros share their secrets on YouTube.

Probably the only main difference we see is the weather.

In the Southern hemisphere, especially in Australia, we can just train outside most of the year round.

There's only a select periods throughout the year where the weather actually stops us.

Whereas we find for a lot of our Northern hemisphere athletes, winter, you just completely shut down.

And it's a different style of training.

But our ethos is really simple and we just talk about two key words and it's improvement and enjoyment.

And I think the second part is what a lot of age groupers can tend to forget a little bit.

And we really, our whole podcast and our whole coaching group is about improvement.

But if you're not enjoying that journey, then you're going to burn out really quickly.

And we're seeing a lot of that with this drive to always be better.

And we're constantly reminding athletes to celebrate their wins.

And we track all our athletes data very specifically from their very first FTP test with us.

And we have athletes who've been with us for six, eight years plus.

And we look back at their first FTP test where they are now, and we have to always remind them that they might have only improved 2 watts on their last FTP test now.

Cause they're reaching that ceiling or it might have stayed the same.

But we go, you remember you're 120 watts lower four years ago and this has been a big journey to get here.

So.

So that enjoyment process is really important for us.

I think that is such a valuable kind of lesson, a point.

And we see that a lot even in youth sports.

I know my kids both, I talk about them a lot on the show, but they're both athletes at a pretty high level in their high school sports.

And my daughter especially, she's very competitive in pole vault.

And if she had us a bad meet, she thinks she's a failure.

And I had to remind her the other day, I was like, you came home from a really good meet and you felt so good about yourself.

Did that one meat define you?

And she said no.

And I said, then why does this bad meat define you any more than the good meat did?

And she just, all of a sudden her head almost exploded.

I could See how her head almost exploded because she realized, wow.

And I said, okay, so now let's think about the win that you took from this meet.

Because there was definitely something positive we could take from this meet and we're going to take that, we're going to move forward.

And I think your point that there's always a win that we can find in every workout, in every race, and finding that enjoyment is so key to making sure that we have longevity in the sport.

I really like what you said there, Gerard.

How about you?

Do you think there are some kind of foundational principles that you bring to your coaching?

Yeah, I think a lot of coaching businesses do a reasonable job at what they do.

But I think the thing that I've found over the long period, really since I started coaching back in the 80s, is the one aspect and component a lot of them are missing is the care factor.

And you need to be on a journey with your athletes and it has to be a team and you have to have trust and the athlete has to have trust in you and what you're giving them, what you're setting them.

The program's not everything.

The program's super important to be doing the right sessions, but it's that accountable feedback that you're getting and the teaching from the coach about what you could be doing better and the celebration of that improvement.

I think that's the bit that I and Jordan enjoy the most about our coaching, is that that the interaction with improvement and the enjoyment factor you get from that improvement.

We always talk about you need to enjoy your, whatever you do, your passion, of course you need to enjoy it.

You're not enjoying the everyday training sessions as much.

We're talking about enjoying the successes, the improvement that you see.

And I think that's where the coach can come in and show perspective.

Jordan was talking on earlier show perspective of where you were and highlighting to the athlete, don't be too, too disappointed in the here and now.

Think about where you've come and this could be just poor period of training due to injury or sickness or travel or work.

But remember that you're on a journey and it's not a short term thing, it's not an instant gratification thing.

It's something that you should be actually thinking about where am I heading down the track in six months and in two years.

And I think that journey with the athlete is the thing that we get the most buzz out of and, and that communication of feedback about improvement in performance.

I think that's what the athlete is really looking for.

I love the word journey.

I use it as well.

I always tell my athletes that I'm honored to be on the journey with them.

You mentioned trust.

I think that's a really fascinating idea because we are in a kind of relationship.

It's a working relationship in a lot of ways, but it's very personal at the same time.

How do you establish trust?

Or how, like, how do you get an athlete to trust in you?

Because I know I'm always telling my athletes, athletes trust in the process.

Sometimes it takes time for them to recognize that not just that I have their best interests at heart, but also that what I'm doing is going to work for them.

So how do you work to establish trust early with an athlete?

I'll let you go.

I'll leave it open to.

Yeah, I'll leave it open to whoever wants to take that.

That's a great question.

There's a whole lot of factors that come into it and it's never one thing.

And we say that a lot on our podcast.

There is never one answer to any question.

It's always a combination of things.

And trust can be created by many ways.

And your history as a coach is going to give the athlete some trust value straight away.

Your athletes performances that you have taken ownership of, they'll be looking at that.

And if they see other athletes improving, and we're not talking about podiums, we're talking about athletes that we use this on our podcast a lot.

We talk about everyday athletes, maybe beginners, maybe intermediate, they may even be pros.

But we talk about their journey and the improvement that they have on their journey.

And that's where trust is really the foundation of trust is seeing other people do something well.

And so you want to be a part of that as an athlete.

You want to be associated with people who provide improvement.

And that's a big thing that we've got because people, I've seen our athletes improve and so they trust the process that other athletes have done it.

So why can't that happen to me?

And the other thing that creates trust is that they see the improvement in themselves right from the outset.

And we've had many examples of athletes joining us who have stagnated for two or three seasons in triathlon or marathon running or cycling events or whatever the event they've chosen.

They've stagnated and instantly they join a program where they feel this is going to be a difference, a point of difference.

And remarkably.

But it's not really.

It's because we're Giving them a different stimulus.

And so obviously they're going to improve.

And so instantly when they see it happening in themselves, there's incredible trust.

After that first four to six weeks.

Oh, far out.

I've been stagnating on this running pace or this power number, and Now I've improved 2 or 3% already in four to six weeks.

And that is the biggest turning point.

We find the athletes now done a one block of training.

We've tested them right at the start, and we've tested them after four or six weeks and they've seen immediate improvement.

And that goes a long way to.

To them believing in the process.

Yeah, yeah.

I just want to add to that as well.

It's the flip side of that coin, is that you can't treat it like a dictatorship and ask the athlete to blindly trust you.

They're fair to question the process.

And.

And we're really grateful when an athlete signs up and we say, if you sign up, you do have to trust us here and you're allowed to question whatever you want because we have to give you the answers.

And when you explain why we're doing something, that just gives them more confidence.

And so, yeah, you tread this fine line with the relationship with the athlete where you, you do need to explain why you're doing something so that they have confidence that it's going to get them the outcome they want.

You can't just say, do this session, no questions, because they could be sitting there going, I really don't think this is for me.

And so if they want to express that doubt to you, that's fine time.

But then if the athlete pushes back too much, and this happens a lot where they say, we're doing the wrong thing, I need to change it, and you need to talk them out of it.

It's this back and forth a little bit, and that's the coach, athlete relationship.

But, yeah, if you can really explain why you're doing something, then they'll start to believe it.

And then if you can test it, and as dad just said, and they get that improvement in terms of the actual results, then they go, oh, you were right, this is good.

One of the things.

Yeah, sorry, I was going to add.

Just on that point, information is everything.

And the more informed your athletes are about why they're doing certain sessions and, and why the program looks like it is for them, then they're on board.

They're invested because they understand the reason in life.

Geoff, if you don't tell your kids the why they're going to push back.

As long as they understand that there's a method in what you're doing and there's reasons behind it, then they're on board with it.

But if you just say do this as a dictatorship, as Jordan said, they're more than likely to either be 50, 50.

They might have that real confidence in, if I just follow blindly, I'll get the result I want.

But we don't want that athlete.

We want the athlete who wants to be investigative and.

And wants to know the why they're doing it.

They will perform the session so much better if they understand why they're doing it.

And I think that creates a lot of trust when they are on board with what the purpose of each day's training is.

And sometimes with my kids anyway, Even if you do explain the why me push back.

I don't know what Jordy was like, but mine.

A model child, Jeff.

Absolute model.

I was rebelling internally.

Yeah.

Now, I know that you've spoken a lot on the show about just the veritable cornucopia of metrics out there and how that sometimes can overwhelm athletes and sometimes even coaches.

How do you cut through the noise?

What do you prioritize in terms of what are the important metrics that you actually think are valuable?

And how do you talk athletes off the edge, off the ledge, of getting too far into the weeds of what's available?

I'll start by saying we won't coach anyone unless they're willing to get a power meter.

And we will figuratively die on that hill.

Yeah.

Because we just know that the value, especially for beginner athletes, which is counterintuitive because you would think that beginner athletes don't need to be confused by something like power.

And it's an added investment as well in an already relatively expensive sport.

But we just know the value that you would get for.

In cycling, especially for using the power meter, is just far outweighs the attempt to train without it.

And so that's the starting point.

And also we find all metrics really helpful.

But yeah, dad, I'll let you explain specifically why we're so on board with power and why we start with that and how we use that in conjunction.

With everything else, I suppose, tracking for us to performance.

And without you having a perspective of where you are at any given point in your training year, without the metrics, you're at best guessing.

And a lot of the interviews I do with prospective athletes who want to join our program.

Program.

I'm quite horrified that they haven't tested themselves in any swim, bike or run situation other than a race day.

And so when they're training, I'm asking them, what are you training to?

What numbers?

How on the bike, how are you measuring the performance on that day's training session?

And they'll give really good answers.

I know my body quite well, I'll train to feel.

I know when I'm training hard, I know when I'm not training hard.

And that's true, true.

There's nothing wrong with that.

But it's not that specific, is it?

You're not actually getting exact feedback like you would as a runner, when most runners are quite familiar with.

I look down at my watch and I can see that I'm running 4:30 pace and that's instant feedback.

But when you look down at your bike computer, what are you actually looking for?

Are you looking at your heart rate that might have a lag period?

There's no measurement of your breathing rate, there's really no measurement of the stress you're under.

There's no lactate information session.

So the power is really a great tool to train to, It's a great tool to race to, but it's really going to measure your training so exactly a runner does with his running watch.

And so without that, we can't actually talk to the athlete about their performance on Tuesday's bike session.

If we open up their session, we can see that their heart rate is going up at a steady rate.

We don't know what they've done to do that.

So it's a kind of blind method of coaching.

Whereas this is an incredible tool, power is an incredible tool to be accurately training to.

So that's the basis of.

We need to be able to measure your progress and we want to know if you're not actually improving and we want to know what we need to change.

Yeah, I think it's the, the profligration or the.

Just the amount of people now who have trainers has changed the perception, I think, of power.

I think for a while there, there was a resistance to getting power because I think a lot of athletes felt it might be a bit confusing or it was just something they didn't need.

But as more and more people have trainers, as more and more people are using Zwift or whatever platform they're using, I think every single athlete knows their FTP, they know how to use power and they know what those power numbers mean.

And when they leave the trainer and they go outside, I think they, they feel like something's missing.

They don't have that feedback that they were used to.

Now the flip side to that is I had a coach who was very big on power and we did all our work cuts according to power and everything else.

We always used to caution when you're racing you have to be a little bit careful about being a slave to that power meter.

So I'm curious is you're nodding your head.

So.

So do you want to expand on that?

We just had this discussion yesterday because is we give, we definitely give different advice to different level of athlete and it depends how knowledgeable they are on power when they come in.

And beginner athletes where we get really power focused because we just need them to understand their execution and because they're they even if they are using power on the trainer, when once they come in, we show them what their power graph looks like and how erratic they are in the evenness of pushing power.

And Even in a 5 by 5 minute rep, the first 2 minutes is, is 30 watts higher than the last 3 minutes.

But they don't really realize because they're not actually analyzing it properly.

And so that's kind of that level.

But then as athletes get more and more experienced with the use of power, we then find that yeah, being a lot more relaxed about it and focusing on riding as fast as you can and riding to the speed of the course and the conditions of the course is a much more efficient way to get around the course.

But you can only do that if you know how to execute and if you know you're not going to be blowing yourself up and stuff sections because you're riding too hard.

Does that make sense?

It does make sense.

And I have struggled a little bit as a coach in that I am very careful to give my athletes power plans for their races.

And I emphasize hugely the importance of VI variability index.

I want them to understand the importance of not surging on hills, of maintaining a power output on the downs whenever possible.

Because I try to explain to them that the closer your VI is to one, the fresher your legs are going to be for the run.

Yes.

And getting that across generally takes, I have found probably three or four races before they buy into that.

But once they figure it out, they usually buy in.

I had a couple of people who did Campeche recently, which is a very flat course and their VI's were like 1.1.

And they both struggled on the run and now it was hot and humid, so not surprising.

But at the same time you could watch their runs just fall apart and there's no doubt that a high VI on a full flat course is definitely to blame for that.

So I want my athletes, especially the newer ones, to definitely be probably a little more focused on the power output.

Like you said, you have to alter your advice based on the experience of the athletes.

I know myself having been doing this for as long as I have, I pay attention to it.

But if I'm feeling really good and if I'm in a competitive sort of position, I'm probably gonna be a little more loosey goosey about it.

Vice versa, if I'm not feeling so good, it's interesting.

It's a very good point.

You raise and.

And we have a lot of the beginner athletes ride a wide variety of power because they're just not used to pedaling so efficiently to keep their power.

And anybody who's tried to ride in a range of power outside with the elements, wind, and different changes in terrain will find that a really difficult thing to do.

And I would love to hear anybody who thinks that it's easy because it is the most hardest thing thing to get right in the whole of triathlon.

In swim.

Swim technique is very difficult.

Running seems to be the easiest, most natural thing to do.

But riding and staying within a disciplined range of power is such an incredibly hard thing to do.

When the wind changes, you could have crosswind, you can have tailwind, you can have headwind.

All of a sudden, there's a dip in the road where the pressure's off the pedals.

And for those who've ridden enough, you know that feeling when all of a sudden, okay, it feels easier, but it doesn't look like there's a dip in the road.

And all of a sudden, a sudden that now it feels hard to pedal because there's a slight rise.

And getting athletes to actually understand those key things, that's a bit of feel and power is so important, but it's really not that important when you're actually trying to get the athlete to think about other things as well.

So the guide is power.

Power gives us this range, and then we try to manipulate the range that we're allowed to have, have around the course and where there's hills.

We have to change our strategy to be at a different power range.

Even though we've got this limitation, we need to be at the higher end or the lower end, depending on where we are in the course.

And that is the real true value of using the power meter as a guide.

And Jordan mentions we want to get around the course as quick as we Can.

So using speed as another metrics is just as important.

So that's so advanced for a lot of people.

So as a beginner triathlete, we just try to give them.

Here's your ranges.

See how you go with this first race or your second race.

Try your best to stay in these ranges and point out the more times you're outside above the range means you'll be more time below the range and then you're going to be burning your lactate, your fuel, sorry at a higher rate and your lactate will increase, your heart rate will increase.

These are things you don't want to have.

And our most experienced pro rider, they are within a 10 or 15 watt range.

They're riding beautifully in that range.

And you would think that looks like it's like an erg mode session outdoors.

And you look at your beginner athlete and their power is just, it's just 400 watts and then 100 and there's 200 watt variation and they're just gassing themselves around the course so much more difficultly than they should be where it should be the other way around.

The pros you would think would be trying to push the power when it's needed against the competition, whereas the age group is, should have.

No, no stress about that.

Just ride the guidelines we give you.

But inevitably it's the other way around.

So we want to use that metrics to our, our biggest advantage.

And for the age grouper, which is the most of the people we're talking to on our podcast, they need to stop thinking like pros and try to actually train with the guidelines of the metrics that we give them to start with.

That is, that's a really important point you're making.

Stop thinking like pros.

The problem is, let's face it, all the marketing, the.

Everybody wants to be.

Wants to be Lionel, everybody wants to be Ashley, everybody wants to be Taylor, right?

Those are the heroes of the sport.

Even to someone my age, 58, look at these people.

And I, I aspire to be as good as they are.

Not necessarily to finish a race as quickly as they do, but to execute a race as well as they do.

To feel like my training is as good as theirs.

And I don't necessarily want to take that away from my athletes because I think it's an important component of what motivates them.

But you're so right.

We have to teach them that they can't do those things and they have to stop, they have to stop buying into some of the.

I have talked A lot about this idea of do we chase after antelope or do we chase after mice?

Something I got from one of my previous guests on the show, Chris Bagg, who mentioned that.

And I think it's just a wonderful metaphor.

So many of the pros, they advertise things that are going to result in these tiny little imperceptible gains for us as age groupers, we need to emphasize our own efforts on the things that are going to give us big returns.

More training, more quality, better nutrition, those kinds of things.

The pros who are operating at the 99th percentile of their physiology, they need to focus on those tiny little things because it makes a bigger difference incrementally for them.

So you have these athletes who come because they come to me all the time, my own athletes that I coach and they're like, oh, I saw so and so is using this.

Should I do that?

I'm sure you hear that all the time.

Time.

How do, how do you approach that?

It's a great analogy.

The antelope and the mice one, because so often we'll get an athlete, finish a race and give us their race review and they'll say, not sure what happened on the bike, I blew up on the run.

And they'll list five or six mice things, what you're talking about.

And we'll look at their power and we'll do exactly what you said.

We'll point out the variability index and say you couldn't run because you rode like this.

There's no, we don't need to go into.

I'm sure all these little things might have.

You didn't have a gel at the 45 minute mark or you didn't have this aeroplot.

It's always the gel, the 45.

Exactly.

Yeah.

But we say no, please trust us, that you were gassed on the bike and you couldn't run because of the way you rode the bike and because that variability variability index score was so high, you rode so radically.

That's.

And so yeah, that's the antelope that most athletes need to fix.

But you know what?

We're coming back full circle to this idea of trust I have found, and I'm guessing you guys have found as well, that as much as athletes will trust us on the training, when it comes to a race plan, not so much.

Dad, I know you have a lot of thoughts on that.

We do take a lot of care with our pre race conversation with our athletes.

And I think the definition of your ambition and your ability gets confused in this pre race discussion you have with your athlete, which is quite enjoyable to be fair, because Joy and I do have a lot of fun sending each other athletes pre race plans.

And some of them are so incredibly accurate and so detailed.

And we just say, wow, this guy is going to have a great day, this girl.

Yeah, he's going to nail this.

And they invariably do.

And it would only be some mishap like they've dropped all their nutrition or puncture or something.

But invariably the people who come in with this warped idea of about their goals against their current form, and it blows our minds that people actually think that something's going to happen differently than when they've been doing in training on race day.

And that's why the race plan should be emulating what you're doing in training.

And remember, everything we're doing is just a guide.

We're just giving our athletes a guide so that they have the freedom to race however they want.

But they have to wear the consequences of their decision making.

And at the end, we are here to prevent them from making catastrophic decisions.

We're here to try to keep, keep them in disciplined and then think like a pro, where, you know, if I do all the things I'm being told, I will get the result that I want and I will be very happy with my result.

And that is a hard thing to get across to athletes where they're just excited and it's fair enough, but they're, they've engaged you as their coach to help you and this is where they need to trust the process so much more in this particular week for their race.

I've just finished with one conversation literally before we started this podcast with, with one of our guys who's doing Oceanside on the weekend.

And by the time this podcast comes out, Oceanside will be done, but it will be interesting to see.

We had a great conversation.

His, his plan was unbelievably detailed.

And I just said, beach, this is fantastic.

You're going to have the day that you want if you stick with what you say you're going to do.

This is great.

And that's the sort of thing that gives us the fun factor.

And that's again, trusting the process.

But remember, it's just a guide.

Everything we're doing is trying to guide our outcome athletes so they have the freedom to make decisions and have to wear those consequences.

Though I love what you said, I'm not going to be able to say it, but it was something about how somebody goes out and tries to Race differently than how they've trained and then is surprised at the result.

I see that all the time.

It's.

It's really fascinating.

People are.

Yeah, it's.

People really want to believe that they have, I guess, a natural ability or something, but it's hard to.

It's hard to express, hey, this is a hard sport.

This is hard if you can't.

And it's not that people won't.

I don't have a single person who isn't interested in putting in the work.

It's just that they often just don't have the time or they just don't have the ability to put in the necessary work.

And when they go and they find out that, oh, God, I really struggled that.

That 90k bike, I can't figure out why.

And I'm like, I have a few ideas.

I think it's a great point you bring up.

We're trying to emphasize to our athletes the whole time.

Time, what is your current form?

And it might be different to what it was six weeks ago or six months ago.

And we're forever saying, hearing athletes tell us, last year at this race, this is what I did, and I expect to improve on that.

And for us, that's.

No, we have to rethink your mental approach here.

Are you the same athlete exactly as you were last year, or are you better?

So you need to think a little bit higher in your expectations, or have you had the year from hell where you've barely been able to train, yet you still want to beat last year's performance?

So giving athletes that.

That feeling of where is their current form?

And that's what you race to, and don't have the expectation that.

That I'm going to Somehow miraculously race 10 or 15% above what my current form is, that's going to be a recipe for disaster.

And being real with your athletes as a coach is really, really your responsibility is to prevent them from making those mistakes and pointing out why.

Because, Jeff, you haven't done this in the last six weeks.

Why do you think you can ride at 250 watts when none of your numbers tell us that you can do that?

Why are you selecting this number?

Oh, that's what I did a year ago.

Or you're not the athlete you were.

What have you been doing in the last six weeks?

That's what we need to hone in on.

Yeah.

And I guess that takes us back full circle to what you were saying earlier, Jordan, which is trying to find a way to identify the win, wins Right.

For that athlete who wants to improve on their time last year but just is not in a position that they're going to be able to do that.

I know personally I see that athlete and I say let's find a different goal, one that maybe is a little more realistic, is going to make you feel just as fulfilled and isn't going to be necessarily time focused.

Maybe we execute better, maybe we nail our nutrition this time.

Maybe we do something better that we did last time without necessarily having a faster time.

Because there are other ways to define a win and helping that's.

I think that's a huge job for us as coaches is to help our athletes define their wins and help them feel like when they do cross that finish line they did get a victory.

So it doesn't have to be time based.

I could not agree with that anymore.

I think it is a really underrated point in the sport and it's something that's not really taught.

It's not taught in kind of the coaching model of how to help an athlete get the right expectations.

But yeah, celebrate their wins.

And it's just, it's just so important because what you go into the race thinking and the result that you want and sometimes you talk about A goal if all goes to plan or your B goal if it's as good as you're hoping and C goal maybe if it's the lower end of your range of what you could do.

But how you decide what to win for you is so important and you could just incorrectly in your mind set a goal, race the race, don't achieve that and you're really disappointed or you set a slightly different goal that's more accurate.

You race the exact same and you're really happy.

The actual race was the exact same but your mindset around it was different and we're actually happy.

Had just had this experience last weekend where we had one of our athletes have their pro debut which was really exciting and he's in great shape and he last year he was 10th overall in the race.

He was racing age grouper but that was including the pros and this year he raced four minutes quicker than last year.

Pretty similar conditions the race.

He's really improved and it put him 24th in the pro category.

It was a really deep stack Profield at Geelong 70.3 and he was really disappointed at first and we had to say to him you're disappointed based on the placing which is just out of your control.

You've gone four minutes right.

And control who shows up exactly yeah.

Yeah.

I am going to identify my win as having this wonderful conversation with you two because this has been a terrific conversation that I've really very much enjoyed.

So thank you both for being here.

Gerard and Jordi Donnelly.

They are the duo behind Trivello Coaching and the Train Smarter, Race Faster podcast.

I will have links to everywhere you can find them, even though they are across the pond, across the larger pond.

Gerard is in Melbourne, Australia, a fabulous city that I very much enjoyed visiting and Jordy is in Bali and I'm excited that we're going to get to connect in the next few days.

Of course, it'll be in the past by the time you hear this, but thank you again both of you for being here today.

I really enjoyed the conversation and I look forward to future conversations going forward.

Forward.

Thanks for having us.

I really appreciate it.

Jeff.

Yeah, thank you so much.

That was fantastic.

Appreciate it.

Hi, my name is Denise Haslik and I'm a teammate of the Tridock and a proud Patreon supporter of the Tridock Podcast.

The Tridock Podcast is produced and edited by Jeff Sankoff along with his amazing interview interns Cosette Rose, Anita Takashima.

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