PART ONE

[00:00:00] Ross Mc: hi there and a very warm welcome to Season 6, Episode 4 of PeopleSoup. It's Ross McIntosh here.

[00:00:06] Ross White: the focus of the work that I do now working in high performance environments where people can be very self critical and they can be very perfectionistic. traits that allow them to persevere and persist, traits that can draw attention to detail and getting things right. And these are attributes that can be rewarded by the environment around people.

[00:00:33] Perfectionistic striving

[00:00:33] Ross White: If you're in an organization and you have perfectionistic striving, That's something that can be reinforced and encouraged because look, it delivers results for the organization. But I've also seen how detrimental that can be for people's wellbeing. And yeah, I speak from personal experience around that, that there have been struggles in my own life around perfectionism.

[00:00:59] Ross Mc: Peasoopers, you've just heard Ross White, who's back on the show to talk about his brilliant book, The Tree That Bends. The ingredients Ross brings to PeopleSoup are his love of sport and his values of equity, creativity, courage, and a willingness to move towards what's difficult.

[00:01:17] You'll hear how he brings these values to life in his work in high performance environments. It's an episode filled with wisdom.

[00:01:24] For those of you who are new to PeopleSoup, welcome! It's great to have you here. We aim to provide you with the ingredients for a better work life, from behavioural science and beyond. For those of you who are regular PSUPers, thanks for tuning in. We love it that you're part of our community. A quick scoot over to the news desk. My collaboration with Dr Richard McKinnon continues.

[00:01:55] I'm delighted to be joining him for the delivery of an Open Access Blended Learning course [00:02:00] in November. It's called Thriving with Psychological Flexibility and it's open to all. And it's just the ticket to support you in landing well in 2025. You'll find all the details in the link in the show notes.

[00:02:13] So let's crack on. For now, get a brew on and have a listen to part one of my chat with Ross White.

[00:02:26] Ross White, welcome to people soup.

[00:02:29] Ross White: Thanks, Ross. Great to be on again and thank you for the invite.

[00:02:33] Ross Mc: Yeah, yeah, you're one of the rare species that has now been on twice, so I'm delighted about that. Now, Ross, you'll be familiar with my research department, and they've had another look at your, your presence in the world and online, and they've Presented me with some summary, facts about you, so I just thought I'd share them with you.

[00:02:53] Ross White: mhm,

[00:02:54] Ross Mc: It says here, Ross White is a clinical psychologist and professor of psychology at Queen's University Belfast, where he is the research director of the Doctorate in Clinical Psychology program.

[00:03:04] He's mental health, and has an active research And has active research collaborations with the World Health Organization and the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees. He also leads the team at Strive to Thrive, which is a clinical psychology consultation service that offers a range of tailored solutions to help people, businesses, sporting organizations, and communities optimize their performance and achieve their potential.

[00:03:28] And P Supers, as you'll know if you've listened to the previous episode with Ross, he's an author, which is why this is his second appearance on the show. This time he's here to talk about his book, The Tree That Bends, How a Flexible Mind Can Help You Thrive. And Ross, I just wanted to add a bit about the type of people you work with in high performance environments.

[00:03:49] Because that includes elite level athletes, such as international rugby players, Olympic and Commonwealth athletes, and players at English Premier League football [00:04:00] academies. And he also works with people in the world of music, acting, and business. and has provided mental health and well being support to a variety of business executives working in Fortune 500 companies.

[00:04:11] And they've come up with one other nugget, which is new to me, so I thought I'd just check this out and see if it's true, because it sounds, sounds a bit exhausting, quite frankly. But it says you're an endurance cyclist, which is something I didn't know about you, so I wonder if that's true. Is, is that true?

[00:04:27] Is that a thing?

[00:04:29] Ross White: That is a thing, both you and I share a name. Ross. And we also share a love of bicycles and cycling and I know that you like to get out on your bike as well. But yes, indeed, I enjoy getting out for long cycles and we're blessed in Ireland to have opportunities to do these, um, sportives as they're called, uh, which can be anything from 90 miles. to 100 miles to potentially 160 miles depending on the event. So yes, this year in May, I did the Tour de Connemara, which was 90 miles around the beautiful countryside in Galway. So yeah, I enjoy getting out, stretching the legs and doing that with other friends who also share the passion for cycling too.

[00:05:21] Ross Mc: Wonderful. I love the way they put tour de

[00:05:24] Ross White: Mm

[00:05:24] Ross Mc: Connemara. I love that in cycling.

[00:05:26] Ross White: Yeah, I don't know where they drew the inspiration for that from, huh?

[00:05:31] Ross Mc: I can't imagine.

[00:05:32] you're right, I love cycling, but mine is not yet endurance.

[00:05:36] Ross White: Yeah.

[00:05:37] Yeah. I like that.

[00:05:39] Ross Mc: you just, you describe some of your experience in endurance cycling in, in your book, which we'll come back to a bit later on.

[00:05:47] Ross White: hmm.

[00:05:47] Ross Mc: But before we do that, I'd like to get to know a bit more about you, a bit more about the author of this latest book.

[00:05:54] Now we heard bits about you in your previous interview. I wonder if there's any more you could tell us about your [00:06:00] journey to where you are today. Perhaps any pivotal moments in your life and your career.

[00:06:06] Ross White: Mm hmm. Yeah. I think there was a dawning realization whenever I was working at the University of Glasgow in my work around global mental health, which is about addressing inequities and mental health provision across the world with a particular focus on being innovative around low resource settings. And how we can make the care for people experiencing mental health difficulties better in areas where money may be an issue and investment can't be guaranteed.

[00:06:36] Passion for Sport

[00:06:36] Ross White: When I was working in that role, I was also aware that I did have this passion for sport. And it was something that I've had all through life.

[00:06:46] I've been a frustrated athlete and I, when I was younger, I think I frustrated my father who did actually sit me down at one point and say, Ross, why don't you stick with one particular sport and give yourself a chance to actually develop and get better at that? Because I think I wanted to be good before I was average, right?

[00:07:08] And there was this restlessness and hunger, To be really good at something before I was prepared to actually invest the time and effort engaging in processes that would help me get better. And, um, yeah, at that time working in Glasgow, I realized, well, this work on global mental health is a real passion for me and building international collaborations in particular. And there will be opportunities potentially to be true to this other passion that I have around sports. And supporting others who might have challenges related to their psychology in the sporting environments. So it was at that point, it was working in Glasgow that I committed to starting strive to thrive as a consultancy business. And it's been wonderful to continue to develop that over the years that have [00:08:00] have come in between. And that's ultimately what led to The Tree That Bends. Which we have here, being published this month, and it's been a culmination of many years of working in this area Trying to understand it, applying it to my own psychology and how I approach my endurance cycles and Yeah, it's been literally road tested

[00:08:24] I like what I'm doing there, road tested with myself and the various other people that I've supported over this last number of years.

[00:08:33] Pursuit of Passion

[00:08:33] Ross White: So I really do hope it will help people to thrive in their pursuit of their passion, being able to perform well. but also to continue to feel well. And that's a key focus of the book that we'll maybe come to that too often people sacrifice their wellbeing in pursuit of what they're passionate about.

[00:08:52] And this is really a call to highlight that, well, we can be true to what matters to us and also take care of ourselves because if we don't take care of ourselves, we can't continue to take care of business, whether that be a business executive, an athlete, or a musician.

[00:09:08] Ross Mc: yeah, thank you. It's great to hear about the origin story of, Strive to thrive and your love of sport. What sports were you interested in when your dad set you down?

[00:09:19] Ross White: So, I played football originally. That was my, my first love in sport. so football as in soccer, because, uh, on the island of Ireland, we also have, the Gaelic football too, but soccer was, um, my, my first love in sport. Went to a grammar school in Northern Ireland. And of course, football is not something that is endorsed and supported. by grammar schools in, um, the North of Ireland here in Northern Ireland. Um, and we were encouraged, let's say encouraged to play rugby. So got into rugby and find myself splits between rugby and football, both being played on a [00:10:00] Saturday morning and, um, yeah, compromises had to be made. So I chopped and changed a little between the two. and then at university, I got more into rowing. Which was after the conversation that my father had with me, and I applied myself a bit more fully to that, but, um, I also got into martial arts as well, and, um, Jiu Jitsu, in particular, the Japanese martial art, which I enjoyed doing for many years, but I've also done weight training, I now do get out and about on my bike as well. Um, no one to, uh, frequent the occasional yoga class as well, right? So psychological flexibility is a key interest of mine, but I think increasingly I'm recognizing the importance of keeping my body flexible too.

[00:10:48] Ross Mc: Yeah, and I think that demonstrates how linked they are as well.

[00:10:51] Ross White: Absolutely.

[00:10:52] Ross Mc: I know that when I've been out for a bike ride, I come back a better man. it does wonders for my mental health, being out there, exerting myself physically, but also that connection with nature, I found really important.

[00:11:08] Ross White: Yep. Absolutely. And you know, whether that's a, an attention restoration effect where, yeah, there are lots of what are called soft fascinations

[00:11:17] out in nature that allow our minds to wander and less focused ways. Then perhaps our attention is whenever we're dedicating ourselves to a particular project or a task. So I think there is something about, yeah, endorphin hit

[00:11:33] from the exertion and the physicality of that and the impact that can have on our mood. But yeah, I think it is also healthy for our attention to let it wander a little whilst we're maybe out on a bike and enjoy those soft fascinations that nature provides.

[00:11:49] Ross Mc: mmm, I love that phrase. Soft fascinations.

[00:11:54] Ross White: Yeah, not mine, unfortunately. I didn't, I didn't coin that one, but, uh, yeah, I love it too. [00:12:00] I think it captures that. It's all fascination.

[00:12:02] Ross Mc: Ross, what I see in your work is this, you know, This real focus on what matters to you, that equality, I see equality as a foundation of who you are and what you do, and willingness to move towards what's difficult, like how can we address global mental health or the mental health for refugees, and also creativity, finding different ways to do things that will still have an impact.

[00:12:29] How did they land with you, those, sort of, observations?

[00:12:32] Ross White: Well, it's lovely to kind of hear what other people observe and notice in your work. So thank you. Thank you, A, for reflecting on it and B, your willingness to share it. And I think too often we might think these things and notice these things and we not share them. And

[00:12:48] that's the wonder of being a writer.

[00:12:49] Podcast host that, um, you and your role get that opportunity. And may I say you're very good at doing that. So yeah, those, those qualities do matter to me and personal values are clearly an important element of the work that I do with my clients. And it's something that I have reflected a lot on myself. And yeah, equality,

[00:13:14] Equity

[00:13:14] Ross White: for me, a more interesting and potentially important concept is equity, right, which is speaking more to the notion of fairness, right? Equality, if we think about it, from um, a more instrumental kind of perspective would be about making the same amount of resource available to all parties. And in reality, we need to recognize that actually resource is distributed, inequitably. That it's about recognizing that some sections of our communities may require additional support relative to others, right? So it's not everything being equal in that sense. It's recognizing that to redress the imbalance, we may need to. allocate [00:14:00] more resource in particular directions at particular times. So that's more about fairness, if you like, as

[00:14:06] opposed to equality. So equity is absolutely an important part of that work. I loved that you were picking up on the creativity piece. And yeah, I think whenever I was younger, I enjoyed letting my mind wander and dreaming big and as good as education systems can be for encouraging us to focus and get clarity on the direction of travel and pursue particular topics and subjects.

[00:14:37] You know, I look back at my A level choices, biology, chemistry and physics. What was I thinking? Interesting as they were, I don't think there was that intrinsic motivation, the hunger for learning in those particular subject areas. Maybe more so for me actually in history and in literature, where you do get an opportunity to learn about characters, and you do get an opportunity to shape and be creative.

[00:15:07] And, um, To put your own stamp, potentially, and interpreting how things have gone historically, both in terms of events, but also works of literature, works of art, music, etc. yeah, so creativity is something increasingly that has come into my, my life more and more, I think, um, since that time on leaving school. So much so that I've started to learn the guitar as well. Yeah. Emphasis on learn

[00:15:34] here, um, but, uh, I'm prepared to be clunky and not to, uh, rush off following my father's advice, stick at it, right.

[00:15:43] And keep going. And we were talking off air just before, I hope you don't mind me saying, but your acquisition of the Spanish language, right.

[00:15:51] And

[00:15:51] persevering and, persisting amidst the struggle I think is, and yeah, great to hear that that's developing for you.

[00:15:59] Ross Mc: [00:16:00] yeah, thanks, Ross. Wow, there's a few things there that I didn't know. I did exactly the same biology, chemistry, physics, at A level,

[00:16:08] Ross White: and

[00:16:08] you survived

[00:16:09] too.

[00:16:11] Ross Mc: I survived,

[00:16:13] Ross White: Yeah.

[00:16:13] Ross Mc: but I'm not sure I thrived,

[00:16:15] Ross White: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:16:16] Ross Mc: And looking back, I too think, why did I not do English literature?

[00:16:21] Ross White: Yeah.

[00:16:22] Ross Mc: Why did I not do music? Because I was a, keen musician.

[00:16:25] I played, I went from, I graduated from recorder, the traditional instrument of all school aged

[00:16:32] children, certainly where I was, and then moved on to the oboe and became pretty good at that.

[00:16:38] Ross White: hmm.

[00:16:39] Ross Mc: Yet, no, no, even thought of doing that in A Level. It was very much, oh, sciences are good.

[00:16:45] Ross White: Mm hmm. Do you know what I just had? I had this powerful flash of insight and empathy. Just sympathizing as well for primary school teachers. Being the one teaching the class to play the recorder. 30, 30 students

[00:17:04] picking up a recorder, potentially for the first time, playing those notes. Right. Oh my goodness.

[00:17:09] What a cacophony. What a racket that must

[00:17:12] Ross Mc: yeah, what a bloody

[00:17:13] Ross White: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:17:16] Ross Mc: and Tell Aunt Nancy.

[00:17:18] Must be like, it must be quite traumatizing I would think.

[00:17:23] And yes, I often say to my Spanish teacher, because we meet once a week, and online, and I often say to him, words to the effect that some days I just need to keep showing up, when I feel like I can't remember things, or I can't remember the preterite tense, or something like

[00:17:43] that, I just say to him and myself, it's showing up, it's being here.

[00:17:48] And being willing to, to make those mistakes that will help me grow.

[00:17:53] Ross White: Yep. I think that's great learning and lovely to share with listeners, because if you're going to wait for that [00:18:00] moment of motivation to arrive, to fully, fully engage with it, you could be waiting a long time. And I think there's something unmotivated when you recognize that actually this is important enough.

[00:18:11] That this connects with an important sense of purpose that you have, right? Communicating in your new locale and being able to meet people in an equitable way, right? Meet them and

[00:18:23] share their mother tongue. I think that's such a lovely thing.

[00:18:27] The pursuit of our purpose isn't diminished by challenges

[00:18:27] Ross White: and there are going to be challenges along the way and the pursuit of our purpose isn't diminished by challenges. Often we, we think that our pursuit of purpose generates challenges. generates, right? It's not diminished by them. It actually generates them. If, if you're going to pursue that something, something that truly matters to you, inevitably, there are going to be difficulties, stresses, strains, challenges along the way. That's an inevitable part of pursuing your purpose. So yeah, our pursuit of purpose isn't diminished. By challenges, it actually will generate them because that's part and parcel of what it is to grow, what it is to transform.

[00:19:11] Ross Mc: Ah, Ross P. Supers, you need to listen to this guy, because this is, this is wisdom. there in plain sight, but we can often be put off by challenges. I think it's from the, the Stoics, or definitely a writer on the Stoics who said, the obstacle is the way.

[00:19:26] Ross White: Yeah. Mm

[00:19:27] Ross Mc: And that struck me earlier this year when, when I was thinking those books I occasionally buy on Spanish grammar are there to be read and the exercises are there to be done, not just to sit on my shelf looking pretty.

[00:19:42] It's like you won't learn and improve your guitar playing by listening to recordings of other guitar players.

[00:19:49] Ross White: Mm hmm.

[00:19:50] Ross Mc: That, that immersion might be important, it might give you some sort of motivation and ambition.

[00:19:56] Ross White: Mm hmm.

[00:19:56] Ross Mc: But it's not going to substitute for the, for the practice.

[00:19:59] Ross White: [00:20:00] Right.

[00:20:00] The CONFORMING Zone

[00:20:00] Ross White: Nor will drifting back to tried and trusted tunes that I can play, play reasonably well, right? If I'm going to stay in what is colloquially called the comfort zone, I'm not going to get the opportunity to acquire new skills to get out beyond that, and I don't really like using the term comfort zone. I prefer using the term conforming zone, We're conforming to rigid. rules and understandings about what I might be capable of or what I think I'm capable of. And I think that leads to us living life small. So I'm really about trying to get beyond that conforming zone into the transforming zone, the opportunity to grow and to acquire new skills, albeit be clunky and Be prepared to kind of struggle in that, but yeah, moving from the conforming zone to the transforming zone.

[00:21:05] Ross Mc: that recasting of the comfort zone. I think the comfort zone has almost become a bit glib as a, as a phrase. It's a bit, it's almost become a little bit meaningless and maybe, maybe an excuse. I guess it does help people notice. where they might be, but I love that taken at the conforming to transforming zones.

[00:21:30] Can you give us another example of when you've moved out of your conforming zone into a transforming zone, Ross?

[00:21:37] Purposeful shift in writing

[00:21:37] Ross White: absolutely. When I've been writing, I've made a very purposeful shift over this last three or four years to pivot towards writing for non academic audiences. Trying to engage the public around understanding of psychological concepts. This knowledge is too [00:22:00] important for people not to learn about. And a frustration for me was that as important as academic writing is, so publishing research papers in academic journals, And, um, also publishing manuals for practitioners to help them develop skills as important as that is.

[00:22:22] And I'm not in any way trying to undermine the importance of that, that, that is really important work, but I wanted to develop my skillset so I could engage the public in a way that would be entertaining, but informative.

[00:22:39] Five to Thrive

[00:22:39] Ross White: And that's really what led to me setting up my newsletter, right?

[00:22:43] Five to thrive. So five concepts intended to help people's performance and well being improve. So you have a quote each month. You've got a focus on a psychological concept. You've got a documentary recommendation, a book recommendation, and then an invitation for the reader to put into practice over the next month. 5 to Thrive was about me setting up this newsletter and we're now in our third year,

[00:23:14] so third years are important. As we were talking offline, right, in terms of you having a third year now in a new location and yeah, Five to Thrive being in its third year too, and I wanted them to write the book, The Tree That Bends. For the public to help them understand more about, uh, thriving as a concept and about yeah, finding ways to be true to your purpose and to take care of yourself as you do so, which is a key element of thriving. So in doing that Ross, I've had to move from the conforming zone into the transforming zone. You know, for too long, I think I had badged myself as someone who wrote for academic audiences. And [00:24:00] it's a confronting experience then to pivot and try to direct your focus, your attention, your energies at this new challenge and to be prepared to fall in doing so. You're not always going to get it right. And being vulnerable enough to seek out mentorship, advice, instruction, encouragement on developing this new writing skill set that I was trying to acquire.

[00:24:30] Vulnerability

[00:24:30] Ross White: But it did mean me showing up to vulnerability. I was out on the skinny branches. Well, what if I feel in this? What if? I just can't acquire those skills.

[00:24:41] What if it's not entertaining? What if it's not engaging? What if the, it's still very jargonistic, you know, and that was a challenge for me to try to cut through some of the, dare I call it, psychobabble, where there's a lot of complex terminology that can be used. So finding ways of expressing with clarity. The key key meanings that I was trying to get across. But for me, when you're moving from the conforming zone into that transforming zone, that sense of vulnerability is possibility, right? So vulnerability is possibility. It's about. Being prepared to recognize that that is the gateway through which the transformation can come. It's only going to be possible if you're prepared to be vulnerable enough to get advice and be open to the possibility. It's not always going to be perfect, but you're going to learn.

[00:25:39] Ross Mc: I see that courage there too, Ross, and a quality I didn't mention before is compassion. Just hearing you talk and thinking about your body of work, I really feel that compassion for others radiating from you in, in, in all your roles. And I wonder, how easy is it to turn that light [00:26:00] of compassion onto yourself?

[00:26:03] Ross White: Yeah, I think that's been a challenge for me and I think that's important for the focus of the work that I do now working in high performance environments where people can be very self critical and they can be very perfectionistic. traits that allow them to persevere and persist, traits that can draw attention to detail and getting things right. And these are attributes that can be rewarded by the environment around people.

[00:26:36] Perfectionistic striving

[00:26:36] Ross White: If you're in an organization and you have perfectionistic striving, That's something that can be reinforced and encouraged because look, it delivers results for the organization. But I've also seen how detrimental that can be for people's wellbeing. And yeah, I speak from personal experience around that, that there have been struggles in my own life around perfectionism. There have been struggles in my life around self criticism. So to answer your question, I think for many of us, it can be easier sometimes to be compassionate to others than it can be to be compassionate to oneself. And there are lots of fears around compassion, right? And indeed there's a fear of compassion scale that can be used to assess the extent to which people might be fearful about the idea of being compassionate to themselves. Things like, Oh, I'm going to let myself off the hook. or that's soft. And I don't want to be soft.

[00:27:38] I need to be tenacious, mentally tough, gritty, right. And persist all the way through. yeah. And then this ultimate concern of my own standards are going to slip

[00:27:49] and then where will I be, you know, my identity is so tethered to what I produce, right. In terms of outputs and outcomes that [00:28:00] gosh, if I'm compassionate to myself and standards slip. Where will I be then? Who will I be then? Is probably the more important question. So yeah, I think lived experience of recognizing the importance of being compassionate to oneself and that informing the work that I do, with clients.

[00:28:20] Ross Mc: and you bring it to life in the book, your own personal examples and your work with others. But I find it quite difficult to land compassion, say, within a, if I'm working with a senior team in an organization, I can see eyebrows being raised and I can see that, just beneath the surface, that perfectionism, that striving, that kind of, oh, here's Ross with his soft skills, his fluffy stuff.

[00:28:50] Ross White: yeah,

[00:28:51] Ross Mc: And how do you counter that? Maybe in your one to one work or group work?

[00:28:56] Ross White: yeah. There's a lovely example of precisely what you've said. Dan Harris, former ABC anchorman in the United States has done a TED talk on precisely that, right? So he, um, did one of these sort of, 360, what do you call them, um, consulting with colleagues

[00:29:17] Ross Mc: Oh, like, uh, 360 feedback.

[00:29:20] Ross White: yes, exactly that. And, um, like he was really interested to see what colleagues were going to feedback about him. And then he got the results and he was mortified. Right. Because it wasn't what he anticipated it was going to be. Sure, there were some positive stuff in there that he did anticipate. But, um, he got in touch with actually how difficult a character he could be in the work environment. And, um, how driven he could be and how that had ripples. On colleagues around him, so that encouraged him to embark on a journey of self discovery and trying to [00:30:00] ultimately be a better person. And part of that work did involve attending a retreat. And some of that retreat was focused on loving kindness meditations, helping him to get in touch with, the compassion that he had within him for others and indeed himself.

[00:30:17] And he, in his own words, and he does this beautifully in the TED talk. I encourage listeners, to, to check it out. And, um, yeah, he talks about that block he had. In his own mind around what compassion meant, and, it's a lovely insight into the journey and how he ultimately did come to embrace, literally embrace himself. and he was able to find language. a way of understanding that ultimately worked for him. And, yeah, he, he really does cite that as a very transformative experience in his life. So there's something about Our past experience of compassion, did we have it modeled to us necessarily that well, and that can't always be guaranteed because we know that people can have, um, stressful upbringings, there's neglect, there's adversity, there's abuse. So it can't always be guaranteed that we have that inner model around the experience of compassion. Um, what are our concerns about compassion? Sometimes it might actually be the language itself, so can we find ways of expressing it? and talking about it that are more palatable. So for some people, it might be talking about, for example, resilient kindness,

[00:31:46] right? Which if you like on the Venn diagram would capture a lot of those elements of compassion. but might land better for some high performance individuals, right? That kind of [00:32:00] resilient kindness. so there, there are issues around language, I think, and terminology and ways of expressing those attributes that could be adapted and adjusted so that, um, people can get better, better on board with it.

[00:32:15] Ross Mc: Well, I haven't heard of that TED Talk, so I'm certainly going to check it out because it could be something useful to share with organizations or refer to for them.

[00:32:24] Ross White: I think so. Very much. And, um, yeah, I'll send you the link for the show notes,

[00:32:30] um, because I think listeners would get a lot from it as well.

[00:32:34] Ross Mc: Just going back for a moment to, let me get this right, Five to Thrive.

[00:32:39] Ross White: Yeah.

[00:32:39] Ross Mc: We'll also put the link to that in the show notes because I'd really recommend you signing up. I think there's a moment in my life where I signed up to loads of these things

[00:32:47] Ross White: Mm hmm.

[00:32:48] Ross Mc: and unfortunately, many of them remain unopened in my inbox, but yours is the one that has endured because it's manageable and It's fun, and there are several books on my shelf as I look round that have been your recommendations.

[00:33:06] Ross White: hmm.

[00:33:07] Ross Mc: I haven't read them all, but the documentaries as well you find,

[00:33:11] it really just gives me a, gives me a nudge to think, oh, I'm going to check that out. So it is really useful.

[00:33:19] Ross White: That's lovely. And on the Strivetothrive. co. uk webpage, which is, um, the psychological consultancy organization that I founded, we have a page and it does have the compilation of the 28 issues of, um, vibe to thrive that have been published as tiles, if you like.

[00:33:42] And I came up with this name for it last week, which, um, give me lots of amusement. And, um, yeah, it's the clickable collage of concepts.

[00:33:54] Ross Mc: oh mate,

[00:33:55] Ross White: Yeah. Alliteration right there. Those three Cs,

[00:33:58] the [00:34:00] clickable collage of concepts, but it's got all of those psychological concepts that were in each of the five to thrive newsletters over the last 28 months listed. And you can click on the concept. It could be perfectionism and it could be the Dunning Kruger effect.

[00:34:15] It could be a rival policy. loads of different psychological concepts and I know that people like to learn about those things because they like to talk to other people about them. They recognize themselves

[00:34:27] and their own experience in them and in sharing that knowledge I think with friends it's enlightening for them because they'll recognize it too. So yeah, I hope that's helpful for people too.

[00:34:38] Ross Mc: Ross, I've been trying to hold myself back, but I think we're gonna shortly move on to talk about the book.

[00:34:44] Ross White: Okay.

[00:34:44] Ross Mc: we've already sneaked some spoilers in,

[00:34:47] but before we do that I want to ask my traditional question. Has song to announce your arrival in a room?

[00:34:53] Ross White: Mm hmm.

[00:34:53] Ross Mc: Whether it, whether it is a virtual room, or a real room, or the supermarket, or arriving home.

[00:35:00] Ross White: Mm hmm.

[00:35:01] Ross Mc: What would your song choice be and why?

[00:35:03] Ross White: Yeah, recently, I've been listening a lot to a guy called Alex Ebert, who was also associated, and maybe still is, with a band called Edward Sharp and the Magnetic Zeros. Great title.

[00:35:16] But Alex, Alex Ebert has a song called To Feel Alive, right, and I think that would be a lovely song to have playing in any room, if I'm present or not. But there's beautiful strings in it as well, and it's just a lovely kind of emotional vibe around it. It's a beautiful, beautiful song. So Alex Ebert, To Feel Alive.

[00:35:45] Ross Mc: That's it folks, part one of my chat with Ross in the bag. Don't miss next week when we chat about his great book, The Tree That Bends.

[00:35:58] Ross: you'll find all the details [00:36:00] for this episode in the show notes at peoplesoup.

[00:36:02] captivate. fm or wherever you get your podcasts. If you like this episode, we'd love it if you told us why. You can help me reach more people with the special people soup ingredients. Stuff that could be really useful for them. So please do share, subscribe, rate and review. Thanks to Andy Glenn for his spoon magic.

[00:36:22] And Alex Engelberg for his vocals. But most of all, dear listener, thanks to you. Look after yourselves, pea soupers, and bye for now.

[00:36:30]

[00:36:30] Ross Mc: oh, I had a great nugget there Ross, and it's just gone.

[00:36:35] Ross White: of your nugget.

[00:36:37] Ross Mc: No, no, what was it?

[00:36:40] Ross White: Guitar. Yeah. We're talking about that.

[00:36:42] Ross Mc: oh and my Spanish, yeah.