There are so many things you are doing right in terms of your wisdom, in terms

of your learning, in terms of how you live your life and lead your families.

I think that the gap is, is, there.

Because there's so many things that you're doing right.

on your own.

so many things that you're doing right without showing the

next generation how to do that

Um, uh,

How can young leaders harness their potential and overcome the

unique challenges they face today?

On today's episode of Seek, Go Create the Leadership Journey, we're joined by

Joseph Pepper, a pastor from Littleton, Colorado, who is not only passionate about

nurturing the next generation of leaders.

But also an aficionado of coffee and health.

Joey has poured his extensive experience into his first book for the young people,

aiming to guide young leaders through the complexities of their development

within a faith driven approach.

Joseph or Joey, right?

Welcome to Seek Go Create.

I am so excited to be here.

So I started off with Joseph, but we can call you Joey.

Is that what you told me when we got going?

that Saul Paul thing.

Some people call me Joe, but really Joseph's only reserved for

when I'm in trouble when I was a kid and my parents got mad at me.

So Joey is fine for this podcast.

And I think, you said you've just recently moved from Littleton

and now you're in Nashville.

Is that a permanent thing?

Are you in Nashville permanent?

So I'm in Nashville, at least for the next two years.

Uh, there's actually a church out here is planting, um, and so I'm part of that

launch Moving, uh, I did student before.

I've last five years and then moving that to be kind of the, uh, The pastoral

a church plant and, hopefully make that more of, a thing, uh, who, who knows.

But so for right now, I did just recently move from Denver to Nashville

for the church planting world.

Excellent.

So, Joey, the first question I usually ask, we got a little

ahead of ourselves here, is the icebreaker, which is if we just met.

And I, I do the question of, well, so tell me, what do you do?

How do you answer when people ask you that question?

Yeah.

Um, it depends on the setting I am.

I'm a big line dancer.

Uh, and so there's a lot of people that will be in the line dancing

bar and they'll ask me, well, what do you, what do you do?

And for them, I don't want to shut down the conversation

immediately by saying, Oh, I.

I'm a pastor because then they'll be like looking at their drink in their

hand and they'll be like, Oh gosh, I can't, I can't talk to you anymore.

Um, and so in that situation, I'll just be like, Oh, you know what I do?

I help people solve their, their issues.

I kind of some, I consult people, I counsel people.

Um, and so it depends on my setting, most times when I'm talking to somebody

in a coffee shop or something, I'll just say, uh, I'm in student ministry

and I work for the church that's down the road, um, and use that as

a gateway to kind of invite them.

So, it depends on the setting that I'm at for sure.

But when people ask what I actually do, I am a pastor, I'm a pastor to

pastors, a leadership guru, if you will,

Well, good.

the more intriguing thing, truthfully, is the whole line dancer thing,

it usually is.

because

depending on how people grew up in their Christian denomination,

et cetera, many people would think that that is of the devil.

So we might need to address that right up front here, Joey.

You got to tell me now is, is, is our people that dance going to hell or not?

a part of a Baptist church through and through, but I

don't think, I don't think so.

you know, it's just good old fashioned country, Southern fun.

Uh, which is why I moved to Nashville, so can't say that,

it's not where my passion lies.

I just love line dancing and almost as much as I

love coffee.

Yeah.

the, the weird

thing about that, this is going to lead into leadership

and maybe we can dissect this.

I love dancing, even from the kind of my origins of Baptist upbringing in the

deep South, because you know, there was this old joke that they would say that,

you know, sex led to dancing, which was even worse than, you know, having sex

before marriage and all of that, but I love dancing and all that kind of stuff.

I hate, I loathe line dancing.

And my wife tells me it's because I'm not a good follower.

Just to kind of get deep here, right, right out of the gate, man.

What are your thoughts?

I mean, is leadership and line dancing, are they co mingled?

Is there some link between the two?

And, uh, you mentioned in my book for the, for young people And, actually

in one of those chapters, talk about that, my line dancing experience.

Um, and so I was in South Florida at the time I was working in construction

project management and, uh, you know, use line dancing as a way to kind of

blow off some steam and, uh, I was the shyest kid, you, you would have ever

seen growing up and did not go out in public and make a scene, do anything.

I was the guy.

Who would go to the bar and stand on the side of the outside of

the dance, uh, the dance, floor.

And so I did that for the first 3 weeks and, uh, eventually one of

the regulars came and, they saw me and they're like, do you ever plan

on getting into the dance floor?

And I was like, no, actually, I don't plan on it.

I just like, watching y'all do your thing.

uh, what she ended up doing was teaching me the next song

from outside the dance floor.

And so what ended up happening was I learned to follow her as she like taught

me the moves even go to the music.

And then eventually I went onto the floor and I started line dancing,

but they kept moving in different directions, you know, as they do.

And so I just stopped dancing and.

Just started trying to face the right direction that they were facing.

then eventually I learned to follow as they, as they went.

And then, you know, a few weeks went by, uh, Tim.

And then after that, I was even following them.

I was following the music.

I was enjoying it.

And then eventually I actually taught line dancing lessons.

And so I was the one pulling people from the side, learning to teach them.

To follow other people.

and so, yes, I think there is a principle there, but here's the other

principle with that that you're always following something, because if I I

got to the place where I could teach somebody else how to line dance.

But if I stopped following the person in front of me, I would step on their

heel with my boot and that would cause a lot of pain for the other person.

And so you're always following something.

But, uh, I think in leadership, if we go away from this line dancing

metaphor, as a, as a pastor and student ministry, believe that the Lord

has said that we follow two things.

we follow God or we follow ourselves.

We follow our passions.

We follow our desires.

We follow.

What the world says, um, is better.

And so are we following something in leadership?

Are we following the principles that the Lord has laid out for us?

Or are we following the principles that the world has laid out for us?

Regarding leadership.

So to your point, yeah, I think that line dancing in general, followership

in general, you cannot be a good leader if you're not a good follower.

Right.

There's a famous quote out there.

I don't, don't remember who said they said, if you show me how you follow, I

will show you how you'll be as a leader.

So that's how I'd answer that question.

Yeah.

And that, again, that might be my issues here that I struggle with.

the line dancing is that I'm just maybe, maybe I need to work on that.

Maybe I need to meditate on that a little bit more.

before we leave this, I do like this analogy.

And I think I, remember reading that, but I'm going to go a little bit farther with

it because when I heard you talking about, you were drawn to it, I'm going to, I'm

going to really work this analogy, you're drawn to it because there was something

there, there was a, an entertaining, you enjoyed watching it, probably there was

something with the crowd, the people, whatever, there was an attractiveness

to it, but you weren't a participant.

You were there, you were on the fringes, you were around the wall, and someone

reached out to you, and I'll use this word, discipled you and drew you in.

You drew in and you became a participant, and you were probably

awkward, uncomfortable initially, and then you started rocking it, and

then you started probably wanting to show off some your own moves, but

you stayed within the boundaries of the group and, what was going on.

And then you began discipling other people.

Now, the reason I bring it up and I use that word is it's all throughout

reading your book and all throughout my church world history, I believe

that discipling and discipleship is a word we struggle with.

I think we, we struggle.

So was the example that I use playing off the line dancing,

would you say it was good?

Bad?

Maybe?

Not maybe?

What would you like to say or respond to that example?

Yes, I would love to add on to that too, if I could.

I think that discipling not the only thing that we struggle with.

I think following is something that we struggle with.

I think following humility.

Uh, it requires a certain level of, I am not the best.

Um, and there is somebody ahead of me, uh, who needs to pour into me,

but then recognizing that there's somebody with, with less experience

than that is going to be following me.

So followership is, is everywhere.

As I said always following something.

You never, you never make it.

You're always going to follow.

The next thing.

Um, and so I think when it comes to discipleship, and I I think to tie

into, add on to to this, um, what the church and what men and what leaders

have failed in recently, in the recent years, they have stopped calling out.

people are gifted, who are called, but who have no where or

way of finding their next step.

Um, and so when it comes to leadership, I always say as a leader,

your job is to connect personally to challenge them spiritually to

take their next step with Jesus.

I had 50 adult volunteers and that was their one goal.

They had to connect personally and they had to challenge.

You can call that discipleship.

You can call that whatever you want to, but that's the

mission of followers of Jesus.

And I think that what we have failed that as leaders in the church is

recognizing staying within the line dancing metaphor, the volunteers,

the people, the congregation who is standing outside the dance floor.

Just observing and calling them out and say, Hey, when are you

going to get in the field and play?

That's what a coach does, right?

They, they call out something that looks beyond the means of someone else

that they even think for themselves and then teaching them how to get there.

Um, because the process of me stepping foot the first time on that dance

floor to then teaching the line dances.

I didn't even know it was really happening until I just began.

I just began getting good at it.

Um, and so when, when they say, Hey, I need you to serve in this ministry.

The first time they do that to when they're recruiting their own leaders.

That process that is discipleship and that happens through natural relationships,

but what the leader is supposed to do, and we learned this through the

process of following what the leader is supposed to do is to be the one

to call them out in the first place.

Um, and so I think that that it might not be discipleship is

what we struggle with the most.

I think the initiating of discipleship is something that that all leaders struggle

because you put yourself out there.

That's a risk to, to go and call someone out to do something that they

probably don't see themselves doing.

Um, so yeah, I think you're absolutely spot on with, uh, with that metaphor.

Yeah,

related to an example that might not be as threatening for some people,

is there's a couple of things.

One, you were in the room, you were in the bar or the wherever it was that

I doubt it was in the basement of the Baptist church that y'all were doing

line dancing if it was, then we're going to have a fun conversation there

too, but I mean, you were somewhere, you were there, it wasn't as if.

This sounds like a young lady, and there may have been some other things

going on if it was a lady involved, but there was a lady that it wasn't as if

she walked off the dance floor, walked out the doors, went walking up and down

the streets and speared you, you know, sitting while you were playing, you know,

Minecraft on a video game and said, Hey, I'm going to disciple you to come out.

It's like, no, that, that's not a match.

That's not, I don't even know if that would be even in an evangelism,

you know, space, some people would say maybe it is, but you were there,

there was a drawing in, there was, there was some kind of, an attraction.

I keep using that word.

And, and I like.

I like that analogy because it basically says there's a

two way thing going on here.

You mentioned followership.

She had to have a willingness to teach.

She had to feel some degree of at least confidence in her ability to show you.

So she had to be at least, pun intended here, a few steps

ahead of you in that process.

Many times, I think in our church world, we'll attempt to disciple people

that aren't even near the dance floor.

we'll try to hammer them with stuff and use what I use, like the language

Jesus used with the Pharisees, we'll use the language Jesus used

with the Pharisees instead of the language he used with the woman at

the well, he spoke to two different.

Audiences there.

I want to ask a question when someone is speaking to a younger group of

people, I think it allows me to ask what I consider to be a pretty rude

question, which is how old are you?

am in the very age of being the mid twenties.

The most overlooked age group the face of the earth.

Yeah.

So like 25 ish, is that, are you okay?

Cause mid twenties could be 23 to 27.

All right.

So 25.

All right.

I'd love to know at what point you first recognized an interest in this topic, this

bigger topic, which we call leadership.

Was there a period of time?

I think you actually did talk about it in the book, but I'm going to ask it here.

When did you say, huh, you know what, I'm intrigued or interested

or maybe gifted in this area.

I think there's been several times in my life where I've, I've realized

that this is something that I enjoy.

Um, and I will say that that two that come to mind, um, and they

started when I was, years old.

um, and I so my dad, I had the privilege of him being an entrepreneur.

Uh, he's just that kind of mind.

so he instilled that in me.

Um, And so when I was four, I would go over to a couple of his businesses

and just start picking up trash, uh, for as much as he would pay me.

Um, never had an allowance growing up, but I did work for a paycheck

from the edge of four on.

And so I think that that really instilled just not only leadership

within me, but just a work ethic, um, to just go above and beyond.

But I think when I really knew that leadership was for me, was when I

was I was about seven years old and I wanted to do a lemonade stand.

Uh, you know, you, you throw some lemonade out there, throw some

brownies, but this was not for any just generic lemonade stand.

There was a Darth Vader helmet that you could put on yourself.

That's when you talked, you were Darth Vader.

so as a seven year old boy growing up, you know, early 2000s, I had to have

that, but my parents said, Joey, no, we're not going to buy that for you.

Which.

so they forced me to think outside the box.

Um, and so what I did I was like, you know what?

The only way I know how to make money is by selling this lemonade.

And so I forced some neighbors to gather together a little lemonade stand

and it was just in our neighborhood.

But Tim, we raised 50 out of 50 cent cups of lemonade.

And the only way we did that was because I would sprint all the way

down the block from a car that drove past us without buying a cup of

lemonade and make them come back and buy a cup of lemonade, sharing the

vision of why I had to have their 50 cents to get this Darth Vader helmet.

and so looking back, you know, all these years later, that was the, the

personality that, man, a leader is going to face obstacles and it doesn't matter

what obstacle you face, there's a way under, around, through, or over, and a

leader is the one who solves the problem.

see the vision, they know how to get there and nothing will stop them.

And so I think that I knew that in my heart just growing up, but I think

that I've realized some of these principles to put words with that.

But I think being a leader has just been within my DNA for as long as

I've, I've been on this earth for sure.

So your dad or your family was, they were in business for themselves.

So they would have been entrepreneurs and business people.

were you also church people?

Did you grow up in and around the church, church world?

So I actually didn't.

Um, I'm the youngest of six half siblings.

And so, Um, I had the privilege of watching my half siblings grow up.

um, and they did not make the best life decisions.

I can say that on the air.

They'd say that for themselves.

Um, and so I, I watched what they did and wanted to do the opposite.

And so I think that that is also where part of my.

My drive, my leadership DNA comes from is, is taking ownership

and not only for myself, but, but for really my whole family.

And, uh, so I came to know the Lord when I was 15 And, my oldest brother passed away.

And so that was the same day that I came to know the Lord.

And, uh, I immediately got into a Christian high school where I

was an intern and discipled there.

And then ever since I've kind of been in the ministry world.

Um, so my, my story was very a turn shift, complete passion, for

the Lord, uh, about the age of 15.

So high school age uh, young adult.

So at that age of 15, I, I'm often interested in like spiritual journeys

and also how the Lord will, sometimes reach out and grab, sometimes

gently draw people in, but it sounds like there was an appointment.

A pretty abrupt or we'll call it a catalytic event maybe in your family,

but did you have some clues before that?

I mean, did y'all ever, you know, pop in on, you know, Easter Sunday or did

you say y'all are church going or?

Yeah.

So we weren't church going, uh, as a whole.

I mean, we went some Christmases and Easter's, but, uh, growing up,

I played baseball my whole life and, uh, one of my best friends, he and

I would hang out all the time and so I'd spend the night on Saturdays.

And his mom would wake us up on Sunday morning and say,

Joey, you are coming to church.

and uh, her name was Carol.

I love Carol to this day.

But Carol was the scariest human being I've ever seen in my entire life.

And when Carol said, you're going to church, by all

means, you're going to church.

Um, and so I had even gone to some summer camps growing up.

I'd gone to some, some church, you know, things with, with that family.

so, All of that was compared to my, my siblings, right?

So I had mentioned that they weren't making the best decisions.

And so my entire childhood, I said, well, okay, y'all have this prayer

life, whatever that is glad for you guys, but look at my family and how

well I'm doing compared to them.

I don't need the savior.

I don't need Jesus.

so what, what shifted this catalytic event, um, it's not that my brother died

and I just immediately looked up and was like, I've, I have this revelation.

Um, it was the culmination of all of the things that this family had walked

with me for, for about 11 years.

Uh, so talk about discipleship.

I mean, they were discipling me.

I didn't even know it for 11 years.

I'm talking about a natural process, right?

And so for all of that time, I had gained some, some information about Jesus.

And so when he passed away, that was the first day in my life

where all of my discipline, all of my drive, all of my ability.

Was meaningless I was small and I Was helpless, uh, and

I was broken quite honestly.

And so the only way to turn was from the information that I

knew about this guy named Jesus.

Um, and so from then on, I mean, he, he was the only answer and he still

is the only answer and he ever was.

Um, and so I've, I've taken that discipline and drive and the Lord

has really shifted that more so away from the selfish ambition.

More towards, uh, a kingdom ambition to bring other people to know that in

the moment that you are helpless, which is very accurate, you are, uh, the

Lord is not, and he will be your help.

Um, and so he he really met me there.

Uh, but he, so he met me there.

But Carol Lewis met me when I was four years old and he's been walking with

her, uh, for way longer than been alive.

And so I praise God for that family for sure.

I think often, and again, there are a lot of different ways that

people are drawn into the kingdom of God, but there is often a carol.

Or a grandmother or a somebody that's there that's probably praying, probably

nudging could be scary at times, like you said, Carol was, but that they are,

they are Christianity to people that are out there doing whatever in the world.

One of the things that's interesting, Joey, is that it.

It appears to me, let's just look at pre 15 and post 15, pre 15, you were

developing talent, skills, abilities.

Probably you had them at the foundation.

you were developing them just with your environment, environment and

atmosphere that you were around, but you had some, we'll call them

Translate to being, and I'm doing air quotes for those that are listening

to success in the world system.

And, and I think I did too growing up and I, I was, I popped in and out of church

some growing up, but it wasn't my thing.

I was never impressed with what I saw in church world.

One of the things.

That I have observed, and I'll pose this in the form of a question, is that many

times the skills that we've talked about leadership, decisiveness, aggressiveness,

wanting that Darth Vader helmet,

they don't, they're not as accepted, they're not as embraced.

When one all of a sudden begins stepping into the more, spiritual, more church

environment, what was it like as you started stepping into that world with all

of that background that you had pre 15?

Just give me whatever comes to mind when I bring that up.

Yeah.

I think there's a phrase that I find hilarious, uh, and

it's called the cage stage.

and so, uh, for me, I was a very passionate person.

And so when I, Came to know the Lord, I became really passionate about theology,

uh, especially growing up in a family that knew nothing about the Lord.

Uh, I wanted to prove all of their beliefs wrong.

And I was right because I had this new, this new identity in Christ.

Um, and so for my high school years, even post 15, um, I, I began formulating this,

this view of theology that I was right.

Um, and so.

What that did.

was very similarly taking my passion and then just using it to prove myself

that I have made this right decision.

Um, And that even came in the form of, I mentioned earlier, I

transferred to a Christian high school.

And so I had to write my dad a 10 page essay to convince him to pay the bill

that this high school would, would cost above, uh, above a public school.

And, and so like, even in that, I was like, man, I'm so fresh,

but I still know enough to know that this is where I need to be.

and so it really didn't come until after I graduated high school.

Um, I graduated high school and I was gonna go play golf, uh, for this college.

got a golf, scholarship and so I played for a semester.

Um, and so my parents at that point had moved to Florida and I was from Chicago.

so I grew up in Illinois.

and I don't know if you've been to both of those states, but Florida is

significantly nicer than Illinois.

And so what I did was I actually schools to Florida.

and it was a small Christian college in West Palm beach.

and I ended up getting, I was there for a couple of weeks, uh, only, and I

went to a career fair and I was hired as a construction project manager.

so now I drop out of college, I'm 19 and I'm overseeing millions of dollars.

In construction management.

And, uh, at that time it was In Boca Raton, which is the

nicest, fanciest, houses that I had ever seen up to that point.

And so I'm working with these multi millionaires as clients,

and they're pouring into me with their business knowledge.

I'm pouring into subcontractors to fix their homes and I'm managing

about 30, 30 ish projects, time.

uh, here's the kicker.

I don't know anything about construction.

They just hired me because I was a people person, uh, and I could oversee a budget.

And so I did.

and what that did for me was over the, over the period of a year and a half,

not only did that humble me really fast, cause I didn't know anything

about the world of what I was doing.

but I began to learn that world.

And I began to learn the culture of, uh, Simultaneously having a team

of, subcontractors who didn't speak English, who were like paycheck to

paycheck at best or struggling at worst.

these multi million dollar people who I was dealing with on a daily basis,

who had these urgent needs, and I was scheduling with assistants and

it was these two distinct cultures.

And I remember loving them both.

Uh, And I remember also not enjoying the process of construction.

Um, and so what that did is it, is it broke me down really, Um,

to the point of just saying, okay, who am I really, and what matters?

Because I was making way too much money that I knew what to do with, which is the

whole reason I had dropped out of college anyways for my whole 19 year career at

that point had been striving for money.

And I found it.

I found the success that you had mentioned earlier.

You're absolutely right.

Some of those traits do lead to some worldly success.

I probably could have at one point, if I stayed with that company, built one of

those houses in Boca Raton for myself.

but I woke up a year and a half later.

And I just said, I am not making an impact or a difference in

any single human being's life.

And I'm not connected to a church.

happened between going from an intern, uh, under a campus pastor and

seeking ministry, having thousands of hours of ministry experience

to this construction manager.

goes home after work and does nothing and sees no one and really is only

out to make money for himself.

I said, where is this making me any happier?

Um, and so I think the process of having these skills, because I would

still say, I would say that I still do.

I'm still very driven, very goal oriented, very disciplined.

Um, you mentioned in the intro that I love.

coffee and health.

I still very much do.

but also this sense of empathy and cultural, um, and wanting to

just be at the heart of a person.

because that broke me down.

I think the death of my brother broke me down.

I think the Lord has used significant events in my life or processes, know,

over the span of weeks or years.

Um, and then some of my ministry experience too, we can get into,

uh, in a few minutes, I think these, these uh, have driven in me the

other end of the spectrum, right?

Because most people, type three on the Enneagram for you

listeners who are Enneagram fans, achiever, high achieving person.

I think most people will look at someone like me.

think he's not going to be able to relate to me.

Uh, he's not going to be able to understand where I'm at because he just

wants to get things done and he's got the energy to do it, you know, young 20s.

Um, and what changed for me really between that and learning empathy,

Is the ability to ask questions.

Um, and so I think that the, difference between having these life skills that

some people would be intimidated in with a church scene and having the

ability to use them with empathy.

Is a really good question.

and so we can talk more about questions.

I don't know if you have follow up questions, but I think one of

the greatest passions that I have developed through this is teaching

other people to ask questions.

And I've kind of coined the term, the investigative leader.

Um, Um, which is something that I'm kind of working through right now, which

is how do we, as a, as a church, how do we, as a leader, how do we see the

people who to go back to our original metaphor are, are on the outside of

the dance floor and not, not teach them with the lessons we know, but coach

them to the questions that we ask.

So that's what

I love, I mean, obviously someone who hosts a podcast loves asking questions.

So I love the thought of that, but just a little bit more

on what I was asking there.

I guess something that I have perceived could be incorrect.

It could just be my paradigm is that often, and it, and it, I'm reading

between the lines here, you could tell me if I am or not, that often

someone who is high energy, often who's someone who is very task oriented and

leadership oriented and things like that.

If they step into what we'll call an established church culture,

they're initially excited.

Until after a while they go now, hold on a second, Joey, you need to pay your dues.

You need to just sit back and be quiet or, or we'll use this word we used earlier.

Disciple.

You need to be discipled.

We need somebody to disciple you.

So this is, I'm exaggerating slightly, but you need to sit back, shut up, you

know, keep that energy, or you could use that energy in the parking lot.

We'd rather it not be around things that are important.

I guess what I'm trying to ask is, did you experience any of that, and

if so, did it squelch you at all?

And I know that it impacts the young leaders that are, here's the opposite

of it, if they Don't, if they aren't appreciated in that environment, they're

going to go take it somewhere else.

So talk about, you could take anything that I just said there and go with it.

Yeah, um, I think all of that jolts me for sure.

um, I think so here's, here's what I'm passionate about.

You asked me what, what I do.

Um, I think my official title is, that of a minister.

I think my unofficial title, um, through the heart of asking questions is helping

people feel seen, known, and loved.

And the two people groups on this earth that I have seen that are the

least seen and the least known those between the ages of 18 and 30 and

those who are in pastoral leadership or ministry leadership in general,

those who work full time for a church.

Um, those two groups of people, oftentimes they are the same, right?

Oftentimes people that are full time in a church are between the ages of 18 and 30.

two groups of people are not only the current leaders who are rising, but

they are the most impactful group of people that we have, we're missing it.

I'm in that group and I'm, I feel missed.

And so yes, to answer your question, this is something I've experienced.

And so, uh, one of my ministry, appointments, uh, that I've had

in my life is to be a full time associate high school pastor.

In Fort Worth, Texas.

And so I did some time there, in Fort Worth where we had, um, you know, we had

a student, a thriving student ministry.

There's about, uh, I don't know, anywhere from 350 to 400 middle school students,

anywhere from 200 to 300 high school students as part of the high school team.

we had a thriving group system with.

Parents, families, young kids, our children's ministry was bursting out

the seams, and this was not in Fort Worth directives about 20 miles west.

So a little bit more suburb get hired.

I moved there.

And, you know, at this point, I'm 22 and I say, hey, I need some community.

What do you got for me?

Like, where's where's the young adults?

And they said.

We have none.

Like there is no, there are, you are the young adults in Aledo, Texas.

Um, and I said, I I don't believe that true.

I said, you know what?

I've been, I've been in the grocery store.

I've been at the coffee shops, all the people serving me, there

are young adults and this is the biggest church in the area.

So where are they?

They said, Oh, you know, we've tried starting that.

You know, six or seven times.

And I that.

the most, You didn't ask this, but I'm going to bring it in there anyways,

the most, detrimental statement to a leadership is we've already tried that.

so I got that.

and they said, you know what, like your job is high school

ministry, um, and you do that.

But if you want to do something, it can't be during your hours.

It can't be on church property.

Um, and there won't be a church budget.

Um, so.

We've tried it six times, but like, you know, you're a young buck.

Go try it again.

If you really want

That's a,

kind of

that's the nice way of saying we're not going to pay you anything for that.

exactly.

And so, um, like that was point number one where it felt like you're

just, you're just young you think, you know, better and go do it.

Um, and so had kind of the green light, whether or not it was, uh,

you know, granted to me fully, but so what I did was I just made a solution.

I was like, you know what, we're just, we have three of us.

We're going to start meeting.

And then, uh, eventually I got connected to the owner of a coffee shop And we

were meeting from this coffee shop All of the baristas started coming.

And so now we're up to about 15 and, and the Lord just really grew that.

So we outgrew the coffee shop.

We started meeting on Tuesday nights.

We outgrew the coffee shop.

Eventually I built up a leadership team, handed it off to them.

And so then at that point, the church was like, okay, we'll

let you use our buildings.

You can have an Instagram.

Here's a little budget.

Um, today it's been two and a half years since then, and the

group is still growing strong.

We've seen probably over different faces come come through that,

which for a church that had zero young adults is pretty substantial.

And so, um, I think that the point is that they may not explicitly

say that they don't believe in the next generation of leaders.

Um.

But they're not empowering them or trusting them do the things that God has

put on their heart and gifted them to do.

Um, nor did I receive any development along the way kind of for that.

And so I think that the purpose is, uh, I was talking to a pastor

in Denver, not too long ago, and I was like, Hey man, just it going?

You know, who's checking in on you.

he said, man, are the first person check in on me in a year.

And he, he worked for a church with 200 plus person staff.

And I met him randomly in a coffee shop and somehow found out he's a pastor.

And I just asked, Hey, how are you doing?

Um, and so like pastors are overseen, 18 to 30 are overseen, And just for

my final example of this, there was a.

A guy who's in sales, he's 18 to 30 and he served in the middle school ministry

where I used to be a middle school pastor.

And, uh, my first week on the job, I moved from Texas to Denver.

I take him out for coffee and, uh, we're sitting there at coffee

who exchanged pleasantries.

and, I just say, uh, like, Hey man, like, I would love to hear your story.

And he looked at me dead in the eyes.

And he said, before that, I have one question.

And this is the first question I have his mouth for me.

he said, am I in trouble?

And I said, Are you, are you in trouble?

What do you mean?

Uh, like it's literally my first week.

And he said, I've been here for three years.

I've been serving in student ministry this whole time.

I have never been asked to get coffee.

any student pastor.

And I thought that I was doing something wrong.

That's what he added.

I said, no, man, I'm just trying to get to know your story.

and I think that the, issue is not only are we experiencing people say, you're

too young, sit down, shut up, bide your time, but we've gone beyond that.

we don't even acknowledge them anymore.

like, they aren't even there.

just, there's a break.

You graduate high school and then you either get married and you have kids

and you're welcomed back there's no place for you and they go and they find

their place somewhere else where the world is going to offer them a place

to feel seen, known and cared for.

And so I think the spectrum is both ways.

Yes, people experience that all the time.

You're too young.

You need to bide your time.

And I would suggest that like, that's just not necessarily true.

You can have a mature 19 year old, you can have an immature 40 year

old and they can do the same job.

but at this point I would say we've even gone beyond that too.

just not even here.

They're somewhere else.

Um, and no one's going to find them.

just a big problem.

I think there's so many things with that.

Oh, that's very good, Joey.

the first thing I observed is that maybe we need to stop doing

all of, or a good portion of our church work in church buildings.

We need to do it in coffee shops.

That's the first thing I heard from what you were saying is that coffee

shop seems to be like where the action might be that, I actually

am sort of joking, but not totally.

Second thing that I want to say, and then this will lead into a comment and

a question, is that I think that we often forget that the 12, or we'll say

13 individuals that rocked the world.

We're all under 30.

I think we all believe that Jesus, maybe Peter was old ish, but he wasn't that old.

And I mean, some say that they could have been as young as 15,

16, some of them, depending on who you ask and who you talk to.

And so I think we need to remind ourselves of that.

I do wonder at times if we'll just say people, but especially people that

get into a groove in their career, either in church business or whatever.

And in today's culture, if we're leading such distracted lives, if we

have so much going on, we have not allowed any white space or any time.

To do what you talked about, which is go have coffee with

people or do what I'm doing here.

This is one of the reasons I do this.

I love having one hour conversations with people like you.

but we have built so much into our lives that we are so

focused on self and ourselves.

So having said that There's two categories of people I want us to

talk about in the time we've got left.

And I'm going to ask you point blank to talk to people in my age bracket.

I'm going to ask you to talk to us about what's going on.

What are we missing?

You went through a few things there.

I kind of mentioned a couple things too, but I want to bridge.

I want to bridge some gaps if possible.

I'm in my 60s, so we are definitely not of the same generation.

So that's the first group we're going to talk about.

And then we're going to finish up by having you talk to the group that are

in that age bracket that you wrote the book for, for the young people.

And we're going to give them some practical steps to finish up that they can

deal with people that might be in my age bracket or just deal with their situation.

So follow me.

First question, Joey, you know, look in the camera, talk right in the

mic and I'm going to give you time.

I will try not to interrupt you, but tell me what you would love to tell me that me

and my generation are messing up with when it comes to dealing with your generation.

Yeah.

I mean, I love telling people what they're doing wrong.

Uh, so I love this question.

man, I think that to establish that is to first establish that there are

so many things you are doing, right.

There are so many things you are doing right in terms of your career.

There are so many things you are doing right in terms of your wisdom, in terms

of your learning, in terms of how you live your life and lead your families.

I think that the gap is, is, there.

Because there's so many things that you're doing right.

on your own.

so many things that you're doing right without showing the

next generation how to do that.

Um, I think the classic example is taxes.

Taxes are not learned in schools.

Uh, everybody who still does taxes doesn't even know how to do them and they just

sent, they got a guy, they got a guy.

Um, and so I, I would say for your, your generation, I think, and I'll speak to

this a little bit more when I talk to my generation, there is a generational

gap of how people receive leadership.

and so for the more seasoned ones that are listening to this podcast, I would

suggest this, I would suggest that you are at the place now where your

life has not passed you by God has equipped you and use you in whatever

your story may be in such a subtle way.

bring your story to a purpose, and your purpose is to pour

into the next generation.

but I said earlier, and I'll say it again, we are always following something.

And so, as a leader, don't stop following people.

following the Lord in the way that you have.

Keep leading your family in the way that you have.

Recognizing that someone is following you.

And the way in which to reach them is not going to be the way you were reached.

There is a generational shift that has gone on.

And I think the gap is getting bigger because younger people are realizing that.

And, and the more seasoned people are questioning why there's a bigger gap.

because it worked for them.

They've reached their success and they know the way, but the world has

changed and the way, it's changed.

Uh, the way to heaven hasn't changed.

Jesus is the only way.

But, The way in which you're going to be able to connect to the younger

generation is significantly different.

It is with the introduction of technology.

Sure.

But I think it's more so what you touched on earlier.

It is the introduction of the busy culture.

And I think instead of fighting the busy culture, um, which we could

do, uh, but we'll take one step forward and three steps back with a

busy culture, we work into the busy culture, and we, we meet those people

where we are a very natural way.

so, yes, we are called to disciple.

But we are also called to seek, go and create.

I love the title of this podcast, right?

And so for your generation, what's really massively important is

that they, they never stopped doing that for themselves, right?

Your time is not done.

Your time is beginning.

You have learned, you have wisdom and, and, and that needs to connect personally.

And challenge someone spiritually.

And if you are not doing that with what you have learned, that

is why the gap is getting bigger.

you brought up something I think that is, uh, my wife and I

discussed this quite often that.

We are still in a very high seeking mode, growth, you know, Dwight talks

about fixed mindset or growth mindset.

And I think what we observe is that there are many people in our age

bracket that they're, they're done.

They're still here, but they're done and they've been done for

a long time and they're cynical.

They're crotchety.

I could throw a lot of words out here and they kind of get ticked

off at your generation because they don't know why you don't come to

them and ask how to do your taxes.

Or whatever, even though truth, truthfully, not many people know

how to do taxes nowadays with the way the government's done that.

Maybe not a good example.

Maybe line dancing should be what we should be really learning how to do.

I do think one should have honor and respect for elders,

but I don't think it's just.

You give it just because you're 30 years older than me.

I don't think that's why I think it needs to be that.

Joey says, you know, Tim, I always hear you talking about some book you're

reading, or you just, you said you just went through six months of studying.

Eschatology and revelation at whatever age you're at so that you can learn

different things that, you know, I mean, I'm in a deeper spiritual study right

now than I've ever been in my life.

and I think if I'm kind of piling on talking to people in my age bracket

is that when you're stagnant, no one wants to know what you have to say.

and then when you do tell people something, it comes out stinky, smelly,

not attractive in any form or fashion.

But having said that, either respond to that or go into now communicating

with Your age bracket or younger or in that range And I know you've got

a lot of great things in the book as you know for the young people

It's i've got it here on my kindle.

I've read like I said around 80 of it.

I think it's such a great Basics of leadership book in many ways I think so.

all right, so respond to me or and or go into Giving some instructions

or speaking directly to people in your age bracket about leadership

I kind of bridge the gap from what you were saying to the younger

people and also including the older generation in there as well.

the younger generation, they, they want to receive leadership in a way that is

completely different than what the older generation has received before before.

And, Gen X.

Uh, received leadership as more military style.

You had, you had one guy, very clear leader.

Here's the order go execute the mission.

and that's how you guys enjoy leadership and leading in general.

when you, you come to the millennial.

Uh, the millennial was kind of more of I'm going to enjoy an

ambiguous kind of leadership.

I need vision and I need direction, but I also want this space to kind of do

my own thing and figure out who I am.

Um, so like, give me the vision and direction, but don't give me

the, the task by task line item.

and Gen Z is similar, but also different in the way of which, uh, like, Hey, I

almost, I, it's going to come across when, and this is probably to your point, why.

Gen X older, older millennials are feeling frustrated with Gen Z, um,

because they're at the point where their way of receiving leadership

is almost, uh, abrasive to that.

it's going to come across like, I don't need you.

Um, And that's really not what it is.

What it is.

is they want to work together as a team, and they want the leader to be on the

outside saying, Hey, here's the vision.

Here's the direction.

Now you have all of this open lane to run.

But what that does that much space and open lane that a Gen Z needs to run.

That's going to cause the leader.

To feel a little bit on the outside.

And I think that that is where some of this tension comes in.

And it's not even a, uh, abrasive thing from Gen Z, but they just

want to identify with themselves in how they accomplish the mission.

And so I think that that is a huge tension between the way that Gen X, uh, older

millennials have received leadership how Gen Z has received leadership Uh, because

Gen Z has been told their whole life.

Hey, sit down, stop talking.

Let me do the leading.

And now they're like just stallions that have been caged and domesticated and they

want to be unleashed and they want to run.

And I think that that is where some of the tension comes in, but then

you see gen alphas on the rise.

And for those of you with middle school kids, I was a middle school pastor.

And so I'm just big nerdy into, you know, all these generations.

But, uh, so I've dealt with all the generations.

at the same time, you know, adults, leading middle schoolers.

Gen alpha is not Gen Z.

Gen Z wants the leader to be kind of on the outside and give me a space to run.

Gen Alpha wants the leader to be almost next to you as like, Hey, I'm going

to, here's yes, I, I am the leader.

There's a vision here, but like, you're, you're right there with me.

Come, come go see, right.

It's, it's almost a come and see, let's do this together.

and I think that Gen X is more Hey, here's the task here

are every line item you need.

I'll be in my office, you go do your thing.

But Gen F is like, no, no, no, I want to sit next to you in the cubicle.

I want to do this together.

and so I think that there's just some tension there with

generational learning in general.

what I would say to the younger generation explicitly that rarely have I seen

mentors ask to mentor someone else.

Rarely, I would say every mentor relationship that I've had,

both formal and informal have come from me seeking it out.

I'm a firm belief.

Every conversation you have is a mentor conversation.

I can learn from anyone.

I've learned from this conversation, from your insights.

Um, and it doesn't take a formal relationship to learn from an older

individual, but what does take intentionality is for you, young

person to go to the older generation, who, by the way, although we agree

with it or don't agree with it, they have done a lot of things, right?

And they do have a lot more wisdom than we do.

We absolutely must respect them on every level.

Um, as we would respect any person or should at least, but what we need

to do is we need to take the 1st step I think young, young professionals

have looked, have been overlooked for so long that that's their identity.

And now they're not, they're not even seeking to take the next step.

Um, and so what I would say to the younger person is what I

would say to the older person.

personally with them and challenge them spiritually to

take their next step with Jesus.

When you go up to an older generational person and you say, Hey,

I need you to meet with me weekly.

And I'm here's 15 questions that over the next three months I want

answers to in dialogue about that will challenge them spiritually too.

And so it's a two way street, but I would say mentoring has stopped because

it's never been about the mentor asking, To men to mentor someone.

It's always been about the mentee seeking that relationship, but because

These generational differences we are now no longer receiving a task

list and asking what's next We're not asking for the next mentor.

I think that that's where we've gone wrong I will also just mention that there's

a lot more about The younger person in the book for the young people for more

practical advice of how to do that.

Yeah, i'll ask I'll ask more about the book in just a moment But one of the

things that came to mind since we're really talking about Trying to bridge

some of the gaps here between generations.

I remember our son was at a church out in, he was in Los Angeles

and he kind of called us up.

He said, man, I'm, you know, Los Angeles is a tough town.

He was actually doing some volunteer work at the church and trying to make

ends meet and doing other things.

And we kind of mentioned to him to do what you said, go.

To someone in the church and say, Hey, listen, and the response he got, this

is going to lead to a question, but I'm going to get people's attention.

The response he got from someone who was on staff at that church

was my time is not my own.

I do not have time to meet with you regularly and things like that,

which , this is not even father talk.

This is just leader talk.

I would love to either.

Physically or whatever, smack somebody who says something like

that, especially someone who is in a church world leadership role.

I believe that our generation is probably repelled and kind of sent out

signals that says, don't ask questions.

I'm authoritative.

This is my way or the highway type thing as a follow up.

What do we need to do to be more open or to put out signals that

make it a little more friendly?

what are some things that you need to say to my generation that we need to

do to allow for more of that openness?

Yeah, that's a great question.

and I don't know if there's any other answer besides just doing it.

there's so many theories of how to generate a conversation,

you have the conversation.

There's a story that I can share about this.

Actually, There's a guy that came through this.

young adult ministry.

I mentioned earlier, his name was Levi.

And, uh, he looked, he expressed to me on the first time of, of meeting him that

he had not been to a church in, in years.

and I was like, man, you've got to come with me on Sunday.

and he, he came, he came and met me in the lobby.

I was obviously working.

and so, you know, as a, as a, That's my super bowl.

So I didn't have a ton of time to hang out with him.

But, um, I said, Hey, let me, grab this guy over here.

Uh, he's going to be a great guy for you to know.

And he happened to be just an older gentleman who was on our host

team and they start talking and and, and I said, Uh, Levi, like we

gotta go, we gotta go into service.

And, and the older gentleman was like, Hey, like I'll bring him in

there in five minutes, but he'll we'll just come sit together.

and it was great.

And I, uh, saw Levi after the service.

I didn't even sit with him and he sat with the with this gentleman and Levi

said, man, that the best day I've had and the most seen I felt in a year.

And then the following Tuesday, I said, Levi, how are you doing man?

'cause he had expressed to me the previous, to Tuesday today how he was.

Struggling with drugs and alcohol and, and sex and all of these things.

And I said, man, how are you doing?

Like, how do you feel about all this church stuff?

I know you've been kind of, you were seeking community, you found it.

And, and that Tuesday night, he actually gave his life to the Lord.

Not anything, I did, Not anything this older gentleman did, but

what the Lord was doing in him.

And, and I asked him like, what was the catalyst?

And he said, that older man.

Asked me such good questions.

I think that what you can do is, is, is really that there are

old, there are younger people who have just simply gone unnoticed.

so for your generation to remember a name, take advantage of the opportunity

to see someone and connect with them, uh, both naturally with warning.

without warning, uh, whatever the situation I think wherever you're

at in work, it's not just, Hey, I'm going to teach this younger person how

to do this Excel spreadsheet better.

It is, Hey, I'm going to teach this person how to do the job.

And then I'm connect, I'm going to connect with them about how

they're settling into the role.

Uh, that is the missing link.

Um, and so really just taking advantage of.

Of any opportunity that comes your way, but to do that, you

have to be open to seeing the opportunities that are in your way.

I think that's good.

And as you were talking, I was just thinking of our ultimate

example, which is Jesus Christ.

And he had a pretty important mission over the course of the three, three

and a half years that he ministered.

And Joey, I've studied this.

I can't find a time.

That he seemed rushed and hurried where he told his disciples,

I don't have time for y'all.

Oh, no, I don't have time to sit here at the well.

I can't think of it.

So my pointed statement to anyone going, yeah, I don't

have time and all that is it.

So, so you are, your stuff's more important than being savior of the world.

So, hey, Joey, somewhere along the way, you decided to write a

book for the young people starting out in life and leadership.

Tell me about that.

Tell us who it's for and any little nugget or anything about

it that you want to mention.

And then I've got another question or two before we wrap up.

for the young people starting out in life and leadership by, I like the name here,

Joseph Pepper, not Joey, Joseph Pepper.

Yes.

Full name for sure.

But it'll be easier for me to tell you who it's not for.

The only person this book is not for is for the person who doesn't want

to grow in their own life and faith.

The person that it is for is people in your generations to understand

how the younger people think and how the younger people are entering

into their own leadership positions.

Now, I think the age group that it applies to the most are those high school.

And young adults and college students who are forming those leadership habits.

James Clear has a great book, Atomic Habits, that inspired a lot of a

chapter of the book, Chapter six, Healthy Habits that I have in there.

Um, and one of these things, my passion for fitness and health has come through

a lot of medical issues in my life.

Um, so I've navigated just a lot hard situations and what I've come

to realize is that everybody has.

We all have our hard situations.

And so this book is really for those people who need that breakthrough

encouragement of how to break the wall of, uh, of complacency of I don't

know what I'm doing with my life.

I feel like identity is one of the biggest issues right now.

And so that's really the main drive, uh, of who it's to.

The reason I wrote it was I was doing ministry in Denver and there was that

one pastor in the coffee shop that I mentioned, but I didn't mention, Were the

dozens of other pastors in that coffee shop and others who had experienced

similar church hurt, similar leadership failure, and similar lack of development.

I think when you look at the business world and when you look at the

military, ability to develop people is.

above and beyond what we are doing as a church to develop our staff.

and it broke my heart.

Cause I'm a big leadership guy, but I'm also just, I care about

ministry leaders and I want them to be in it for the long haul.

I want to be in it for the long haul.

Um, And so what, what really drove that book was to collectively just

see pastors and say like, Hey man, I see the struggle you're going through.

and so that was a lot of the reason that I began typing on my

computer, the words that I did.

Very good.

Well, like I said, it's an excellent read.

Where can, if someone just wants to reach out to you, you know,

where can they find the book?

I'm guessing Amazon, all that kind of stuff, but where can they find the book?

And if someone just wants to connect with you, go ahead and give that verbally here.

We'll include it down in notes and all, but where can people find you?

they can, uh, they can find me, Instagram.

uh, Joey underscore pepper 12, Uh, that can find the book on Amazon, or

if they want to listen to this some more, I unpack a lot more of this, uh,

on a podcast called ministry cohort, uh, which is just, uh, similar to this.

We interview a lot of guest speakers about leadership, faith.

of this thing.

So those three platforms are a way to connect with me.

Good.

We'll include that.

Joey, we're Seek, Go Create.

Three words.

Gonna allow you to choose one of those.

Resonates more with you than the other two.

Seek, go, or create.

And why?

I think I'm going to choose to but, uh, this podcast tells me that it's about

seeking, uh, was my, my go to word, but I'm really passionate about go.

Acts chapter one, verse eight, uh, says you will receive power and

the Holy spirit comes upon you.

You'll be my witnesses in Jerusalem, Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.

And we see this in Acts unfold, because at that point, Rome

was the ends of the earth.

So we see the church expand from Jerusalem, Judea and Samaria, to Rome.

And so now the world's bigger, so our mission is bigger, but until we go, if we

stay in our tight knit circles, we will get phrases like we've tried it that way.

We've already done it before.

We'll look at young people and say, sit down.

Your time's not now.

talking.

That's when we stay.

But when we go, we experience so much more and we allow so much more

freedom for leadership development.

Um, so not only is go a discipleship term and an evangelism tool, it's

also a leadership tool and going will allow us to see a lot more

than what we see when we stay.

So I would say go is the 1 that I resonate with a lot more.

Very good.

Thanks.

What a great conversation this has been.

Line dancing, Darth Vader, leadership.

I think we have almost covered it all.

I do recommend people get the book.

Excellent book for the young people starting out in life and leadership.

And I do agree.

It's really good for people.

We'll call them mature.

We won't call them old.

That just want a perspective of some of the challenges and maybe it

just helps softening our hearts so that we can become more humble and

communicate better with that generation.

So I appreciate everybody listening in.

We have new episodes here at Seek Go Create every Monday.

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Keep sharing, keep commenting, keep listening And until next time.

continue being all that you were created to be.