Hi, and welcome to the Animal Welfare Junction. This is your host, Dr. G, and our music is written and produced by Mike Sullivan. Today, we have a very special guest from Colorado, Dr. Jeff Young, founder of Planned Parenthood International. Welcome, Dr. Jeff. Thank you so much for being here.

Thank you for having me and hopefully we can have some good discussions today.

I think so. I think we're very like minded individuals. but before we get started, how about you let our listeners know about you? Where you started and what brought you to where you are today?

Yeah, I've made a lot of major changes in my life. When I went to vet school, I was a hunter and fisherman and, um, and I, you know, my idea of a, of a, of a vegetable would be a tomato and a triple hamburger. Uh, in vet school taught me a lot about animals that I didn't know. And in the end, I also worked animal control and it really changed my perspective on animals and, and the planet in general. Um. I think work in animal control gave me a real perspective on cruelty and neglect. So from the beginning at that time when I graduated 1989 from Colorado State University, we were killing something like 24 to 26 million dogs and cats a year in this country. Now we're down to anywhere from 1 million to 4 to 6 million depending on who you want to believe. And I think a lot of animals are euthanized at veterinary hospitals that aren't counted because of economic euthanasia. But No question society's become more sophisticated. We are aware of spay neuter. Uh, but in the end, I think the number one issue with overpopulation comes back to finances more than anything else. So I think that's what's always driven me. Um, I ran a for profit for years. We always made money, but we always were lower than everybody else. And because of the TV show, Dr. Jeff Rocky Mountain Vet. We started getting just inundated with people from all over. So at that, at that point, it was like three years ago, we became a hundred percent nonprofit, um, and it's been harder as a nonprofit, quite frankly, as, as a for profit, in all honesty, because everybody begs you all the time, you know, and you want to try to, and I'm kind of a bleeding heart liberal, be honest, and I, you know, it's really hard to say no to people, you know. Um, but we do our best and, uh, we've moved up to Conifer, Colorado. We have, I have associated with clinics all around the world. I've been to 46 countries, lectured or done surgery in 46 countries. Um, so, and I, and I still think teaching is the most important thing. This new facility we're in is a, is basically a teaching hospital for vet students. Right now we have, uh, We've worked I think with seven universities so far. They've sent us kids. Uh, Ohio State's going to be, I just got a young lady coming up from Ohio State, um, next month I believe. That's my first Ohio State, uh, person. So, but, uh, I think if I can pass on some kind of basic Hands on knowledge and get them to do some basic surgery. Cause surgery is surgery. I mean, you know, to get good, everybody, I get people come in and want to be a great surgeon while it takes time, you just don't become a good surgeon overnight. You know, some people have more talent than others, but in the end, it's about handling tissue and it can be repetitious as spay and neuter. At some point you just realize you're a decent surgeon. And I really do believe that, you know, and I don't know where it was for me, but at this point in my career. I'm not afraid of any soft tissue surgery. When I do, you know, PDAs and persistent right aortic arches, uh, take lung lobes out, things like that. I mean, there's virtually nothing soft tissue wise that scares me. Um, and that, but that just comes from years of practice and doing surgery, you know, uh, so I feel very lucky and, uh, animal planet was one of those two edged swords, you know, cause it, it brought all this national attention, but, you know, the traditional vets don't necessarily like what I do. Uh, and having said that. All these people came in from all over and we really got inundated. It was hard to keep up, but, uh, uh, in the end, I've always loved what I do. And my goal has always been to try to help, especially like retired individuals, single moms, you know, the people in society that really need the most help. And, uh, And that's what we're open for and hopefully we can train some more vet students and get them interested in the same thing, you know, and I will say I think there's been a shift, I think, kind of, before COVID and kind of during COVID, most of the students were not that interested in doing low cost or nonprofit stuff and I'm just in the last year or so I'm having more and more students. You seem to be interested in that, and we need that. We're short, as you know, we're shorthanded, uh, so and really helping out people, I think we can make a real difference.

I 100 percent agree, and I'm so glad that you're doing the education bit, because we have been doing a lot of mentorships and externships as well, because you have to give these students like they're hungry for education, right? Like they just got into vet school. It's the perfect time to get them in and to get them excited when they, when there's really still in the exciting phase. And, and yeah, teaching them what's available and what's out there. I think one of the things that, you know, I too love what I do. I love my job. There isn't one day that I I wish I was something else. And I think part of that is that I am doing something that benefits the community and everything, but also makes me feel better about what I'm doing. Right. And, and I think that a lot of the problems that we're having right now with compassion fatigue and such. Come about from people say no, that they can't afford something, having to euthanize their animals because they don't have any, any money, uh, just there's not that, that excitement in general practice as it has kind of become, right? So I think that that if we can get these students motivated and, and empower them to do community service, basically, that it's going to make them feel better and potentially decrease that compassion fatigue that they're feeling. No,

I think part of the problem is, and it's been a gradual thing, but veterinarians have never been necessarily rich per se, but we've always had made a good living and we were very well respected in the community. And I've seen that just go down the tubes in that, you know, most people say, well, just in it for the money, you know, um, and part of that is to say Wall Street and I'm, I'm a red, white and blue American. I believe in competition, but when you get Wall Street involved. You know, and, and basically something like 70 percent of private practices now are, is owned by big companies, you know, and the problem with that is the moment you do that, well, your, your shareholders want money, you know, and you have a tier system of bureaucrats when you said the vets, they're working. So all of a sudden you have to double, triple, quadruple your price to be able to make those profit margins, you know, and, and, you know, just assume for a second they're in it for the money. And I understand that there's nothing wrong with making money. But at the same time, we've just gone so far overboard with it. You know what I mean? Once, once wall street figured out that vets are great investments and there's always going to be money there. Um, the question is, will there always be money there? Because we're basically pricing ourselves right out of the market, you know, and we're really catering, if you look at the last. three decades, we actually serve a smaller percentage of animals in America. There's more animals in America. Don't get me wrong. And that's, that's our busy, but we actually serve a smaller percentage than we ever have, you know, which makes no sense to me. Um, because this is the richest nation on earth and we have all these talented people out there, but yet we're turning people away because they just can't afford things, you know, and it just seems to me to be criminal.

Yeah, I have seen that as well. And it's kind of that idea of, well, we can raise the price and we're going to lose some clients, but the ones that stay are going to be able to make us money. And that's kind of a bad mentality to have. We want to help the many rather than the few. At least I know that I do. And I am sure that you do as well. Like we, we have this, this gift of being able to help animals. So why not help as many as we can rather than limiting ourselves to six patients a day?

I don't want to be so jaded to where I believe students don't care, people, the graduates or people that are out there in practice don't care, necessarily care about animals. But you know, that's not a requirement to get in vet school. And the reality of it is, you know, we're, we're selected because we're kind of science oriented and I kind of get that. Uh, I think the one thing that's driven compassion into, a little bit of compassion that's in the veterinary industry is, is when 89, my class was the first class to have more, Or females and males. And as we have more and more females come into the profession or more compassion has come into the profession. Um, but as you say, you know, like if, if so many of the main, the big facilities are owned by men or corporations, as the young women come in. They're having to send animals away, or they're having to euthanize animals, and that's, you know, that just drives you, I mean, if they have any compassion at all, well, think what that does to the soul, you know, uh, and I understand why people get burned out, or commit suicide, or, you know, go turn to drugs, or drinking, you know, uh, because this, this is, this is a hard profession right now, and, uh, I don't know, it's kept me sane, quite frankly, for the last 34 years, other than I just, I've always believed in what I'm doing, you know, and I think that's the key, you have to find something you truly believe in, and like you say, you're connecting with your community, um, you know, and you're connecting with people, and, and the animals, and, and I don't, I don't, I don't know, I just can't imagine a better life, in all honesty, there's a lot of sadness in it too, don't get me wrong, but, you know, I feel like we do our part to try to make as much happiness as we can. Thank you. Yeah,

it, and, and it's also about surrounding ourselves by like-minded individuals, right? 'cause I have technicians that have been with me for a really long time because this is not a job, right? A job, right? They can get a job anywhere. But this is more like a, a mission and everybody, we're all so tired at the end of every day. And we're doing, you know, we, we go out on our trucks, we drive about an hour and a half, two hours to these locations, do 30 to 50 surgeries, and then have the same drive back. So we are physically exhausted, but mentally feeling so great about it. Right? So I think that that, that makes all the difference in the world, you know, and, and then we also have to pay our, our employees properly because we cannot expect people to do this much work for free. I mean, there has to be, there has to be compensation for people that are, that are doing so well and doing so much. Um, you know, and, and also like technician utilization, I would like to get your, your thoughts on it because I utilize my technicians to the top of their license, like they, without them, I could only do maybe 10 or 15 surgeries, but with them, I can do so much. So what are your thoughts on, on the kind of like the, the, the technicians that are leaving the field because they're just not utilized or compensated as well as they should.

They're not compensated and they're burned out. Once again, they see it too. I've had a couple of technician people, uh, leave and come back because, you know, they made me make a little bit more money somewhere else, but they realized that there's no satisfaction in their job there. You know, it's just, it's, you know, it's. Bring an animal in, make as much money as you can and send it out. And that's it, you know, and there's no purpose. Um, and I, I do think it's important to pay a livable wage. I've always said that. And, um, you know, I've always been associated with humane groups and stuff. And I've always complained about, you know, like, well, you, the people come in and clean these cages and do all this work and you're paying them 1. 95 an hour, you know, and you can't figure out why you can't keep them or, you know, why they get, they get frustrated, you know? So I think paying a livable wage is really important. Um, and I think letting your techs reached out to the very end of their abilities in terms of what's legal for them in any given state. I think every state is different. In some states allow techs to do more, some less. But you know, I, I believe, I personally think we should have spay and neuter techs. You know, I think we should be able to train them. We don't have that here in Colorado. But, you know, they actually, I think they were talking about doing something like that and something like over 60 percent of vets thought it was a good idea, but then they voted it down because they were afraid of the competition, you know, but if it's still under, you know, under a vet's supervision, you know, as a vet student, as a freshman in vet school, you can come in pretty much do any surgery if I'm on the premise. You know, but if you're a tech that's worked with me for 20 years, you can't, you know, um, and I don't know, you know, does that make any sense to you? Well, you don't open that whole door, but if it's just spay neuter, you limit to certain things. You can make a real difference with society and make a difference in those people's lives. And I just think it's it's it's better for for our profession overall, you know, but uh, Yeah, the powers that be would

disagree. I 100 percent agree with that as well. And I talk about that with my technicians because I have at least two technicians that would be very willing to learn how to do spays and neuters. And I know that they're very intelligent people. It's not like they went into tech school because they're they're not smart enough to go to vet school. They went into tech school because that's what they wanted to do. And yeah, it would be amazing if, yeah, under my supervision under my care while I'm there. If they were allowed to do some minor procedures, some spays and neuters, that way I am there. So if they get into a bind, just like a vet student, I have to be present for them to do surgeries. Same, same kind of thing. And you know, I hear a lot about this competition stuff, but The number of animals that need to see a vet and need to be sterilized, that right there tells you that there's not going to be any competition for a really long time. Like we need to get our minds out of the whole competition idea and focus on what's important, which is the animals.

Well, I think we talk about competition all the time, but we're, as a profession, we're the first to try to squash it, you know, and make it go away because we don't really want competition. You know, we want to have our cake and eat it too. And as they're out today, they try to pass a bill in Colorado that said, Dogs and cats are a special type of personal property. And if you malpractice, you could be, you could, you could have to pay up to 10, 000. I, I, you know, that's a good idea. It seems fair enough. And if I screw up, it's my legitimate mistake. And the people can, you know, they have that connection. If I have to pay some money, so be it, you know, um, man, the vet profession came out, they squished that so fast, you know, at the same time, the same people. I had a cat come in that was quoted 20, 000 for an Explorer. Um, you know, I had a, it was, I did an anal gland removal that was quoted 8, 000 for an anal gland removal. I mean, just crazy. You know, so like if we're that worth that much, if you screw up, why shouldn't you have to pay that much? Or at least some of that, you know, but once again, we don't, we want our cake and eat it too. You know, I just personal property. They have no value, you know, because they're just personal property, like a TV, which is what the law says across America, pretty much, you know. Um, And it's like, well, they're really not just personal property, they're kind of special personal property, if anything, you know, so,

yeah, no, yeah, I'm, I'm currently studying animal law at Lewis and Clark, a master's in animal law for non law students. And the concept of animals as living property comes up, right? Because there's a lot of, a lot of, uh, issues between animal welfare and animal rights and what's correct and what's not, but yeah, it comes back to animals are just considered property. In the eyes of the law, just like a TV or a microwave, yet veterinarians and technicians are very tied up into what we can and cannot do at times. And, uh, and there were precautions for doing something wrong. So there's a huge disconnect there as well, as far as what's allowed and what's not allowed.

Yeah, yeah, I'm pretty sure I could, I can work on my own TV and my own toaster if I want to. Now I might electrocute myself and die, but that's on me, right? And I have to say, technically in Colorado, you know, you can do surgery on your own animal, you know, and that's not illegal. Now, you may not have the drugs for it, things like that, but if you had the drugs and access to it, you could legally do it, whether you knew what you're doing or not, that would be legal for you to do. And that comes over from the large animal side as much as anything, because, you know, let's face it, vets aren't doing a lot of dehorning and castrations out there on the farms anymore, you know. They have technicians and other people, just the ranchers, the owners, you know, and it's not rocket science in the end, let's face it, you know. A lot of things we do, I get pretty much to each monkey to do in all honesty.

Now, speaking of that, we have standards of care. And one of the issues that I have with my vet students is that everything that they want to do is gold standard of care. So what are you know, and we try to explain to them about, yeah, gold standard is we should be able to offer clients, everything, all their options, because we should never assume what they can and cannot do or what they can and cannot afford. But this, this idea of gold standard of care, uh, I think that it's actually creating more of a problem in animals not getting any, any care or any treatment. And making owners feel bad because they're not doing what they, what they're being told is right for their

pets. We're trying to, we try to guilt them into it, you know, and you're right. It's just, it's the gold standard. And, and, uh, as you say, the problem is, look, you can take a Volkswagen or you can take a Mercedes Benz to the prom, but they both get you to the prom and that's the point, you know, uh, I do, I do believe in informed consent, you know, when people bring an animal to me to do, you know, like my first heart surgery, I said, look, I'm not a specialist. I've never done this before. You know, it's a good chance your animal's going to die. Yeah. Uh, there was a single mom with a puppy that, uh, actually had a persistent aortic right, uh, aortic arch. Um, and I did it right before Christmas. It was successful. I got a nice Christmas card from the little boy it was attached to, you know, and I got a hundred dollars for surgery, you know. So,

you know, and that's what it's all about right

there. Well, that's the point. Nothing could, you know, I mean, I would, I would, I would have paid them to do it quite frankly, you know, but yeah, that's informed consent. But if it would have died, you know, and it didn't knock on would have been pretty lucky that way. I mean, I do some pretty crazy surgeries and I pull them out. I've had, I've actually had. Animal come out from Ohio State that was kicked in the head and had some bone pieces and they'd done CTs and everything else. And I just went in and pulled all the bone pieces, put a mesh in and it was done fine ever since, you know, they recorded, you know, tens of thousands of dollars to do the same thing, essentially. So I, you know, I don't know, you know, like I'm going to give it my best shot. You have to understand that that's what I'm doing. Give it my best shot. I've never done this before. And that's informed consent. And I think, you know, our profession, they kind of lean that way towards informed consent, but they really want to make that standard so high that, you know, I mean, the alternative is to put the animal to sleep. And I don't understand that. How's that an

alternative? Or poor quality of care, right? For them to just go on suffering, depending on what they have.

Yeah, people take their animals home and they have to suffer slow, miserable deaths or have horrible mouth infections and stuff like, I don't know, like how I know as an owner, I don't know how you live with that. But then as a veterinarian sending them out the door, I don't know how you live with that either. Yeah.

And again, then that comes back to that. You know, compassion fatigue of, you know, the dog is suffering and you're sending it out the door with this rotted mouth, you know, that it can't eat, or you euthanize an animal for something that's completely treatable just because the person cannot. And sometimes we have to euthanize and it doesn't mean that we can fix everything. But, but just making it so that euthanasia is not an option due to cost. It's an option because it is an option. It's on the table. But, you know, taken

away. I've always said there's many things worse than death and there are, you know, so I, I don't believe in euthanizing animals that I can fix and have a good quality of life for, and I won't do it. That's what shelters are for. If they, you know, they want to take it to a kill shelter or something, but I won't, I won't do it. I just think it's unethical, you know, and I'll do my best. I mean, I'd rather have them sign the animal over to me if they want to put no money in it. Fix it and find it a new home. And that's what we offer people, you know, that, that are like that. And it's not everybody, not everybody likes their animals as much as I like mine or you like yours. And that's, you know, and it's not just finances there. That's just, you know, the difference in human beings. And, and, and I don't, I can't say I respect it, but I don't, you know, I don't necessarily. Look down on those people. I just think there's something wrong with them. You know, they're they're somewhere they got along in life. They got bent a little bit and uh, I feel sorry. My dog Fred means the world to me, you know, and I have to say with seven grandchildren, if they're all hanging on the cliff and Fred was there, I'm not sure who I'd grab first. I always wonder sometimes. I might just step on their fingers and let them go. That's another story.

So, um, one of the things that we were discussing before we started recording was as far as income requirements. Like, I don't have income requirements and you don't either. So can you explain to our listeners what your thoughts are on that and why you don't have income requirements? Yeah. I've taken

a lot of flak from the veterinary profession for not having an income requirement, but in the end, the people that come to me, in one sense, they've put a certain value on, many times they put a certain value on their animals. It doesn't matter how much money you have. If you're only going to spend 1. 95, you can be a millionaire or billionaire. But I also, more than anything, when you do have truly poor people whose animals, an integral part of say their children's life or their life, you know, to make them fill out forms, uh, to prove that they're poor. To me, it's just degrading and make, and it's, I don't, I just don't think it's right. I think it's immoral and I think it's degrading and I don't think you make people like that. The people like poor people make poor decisions and they get stepped on all the time in our society and they're blamed for so many ridiculous things. Um, I just don't want to be one of those people and I'll have great compassion for. For poor people and I've never been poor per se in my life, but I've, you know, other than, I mean, when you go to school and things like that, but you've chosen that life, you know, so, um, but I've been around poverty a lot, you know, and, um, you know, I, I don't know. I just, uh, I don't, I don't want to be that person to be that judgmental and, and, and it goes back to just to religious. point of view to some degree, too. You know what I mean? I'm a big fan of the Sermon on the Mount, you know, and I just don't think it's my place to be judging people. My place is here to help, help the animal, which helps the people. It's all combined together to me.

Yeah, I have, you know, I believe in the human, the importance of the human animal bond and the importance that animals have as emotional support. And I think that underserved communities, homeless individuals, just people experiencing struggles need those animals probably even more than those people who are better off. Like, those animals are truly a source of support and companionship. And who are we to tell them, no, you're too poor, so you can't have that animal, first of all. Second of all, The shelters are overcrowded. There's animal overpopulation is ridiculous. So how about having them be in a home that is that where they're loved and then helping support those individuals so they're giving animals a good quality of life in a loving home.

I've had the luxury of working with Dogs Trust which is a great website. You should look at Dogs Trust out of the UK and Cat Protection out of the UK. Cat Protection is definitely the world's leaders in cats when it comes down to it. But you know they In their facilities in the UK. Now, once again, they're probably worth a billion dollars on paper. So, you know, they're not like it's a cheap organization, but they have 19, 20 facilities, but they all have a vet, they all have a trainer, uh, they all have a behaviorist, you know, and, and, you know, like some of our biggest humane societies in the States don't have a behavior or trainer in, you know, 50, something like 50 percent of the animals end up in shelters for behavior issues, you know? Uh, so why don't we, you know, we're just like. Barbarians that we were just behind the times, you know, if we can correct the problem, get the animal back in the same household that came out of, why would we take it in potentially have to euthanize it or even go through the process of finding a new home? Makes no sense to me. Uh, you know, we keep building bigger and bigger, nicer, nicer shelters. Um, but for what? You know, it's like the goal is to put yourself out of business, you know, not become. I've become a revolving door, you know, and that's why I've always looked at, you know, what I've done, you know, it's like, you know, uh, people say, well, why don't you just pay neutral to all the animals? There'll be no animals, you know, like that's never going to happen. You

know, it's not going to happen.

So I said, I got a lot, I got really good job security. I'm pretty sure that. You know, but an underserved area is something like 77 percent of animals never make it to a veterinary and never see a veterinarian in their life. And up to 87 percent are never fixed, you know, where we live in a society where something like what, 90 percent of dogs are fixed over 90 percent of dogs and over 80 percent of cats are fixed in America that are owned, which is really high number. But yet many of those have a litter before they're fixed and things like that. So education and the biggest reason people don't get animals fixed is price. It's price points, plain and simple, comes back to money. Yeah,

and and it's kind of a combination of like affordability and then accessibility because there are people that live in secluded areas in rural areas, right? And they just don't have they may be able to afford it But they just can't get to the vet and we think about you know having to to drive two hours to get to a vet Not many people are able to to do that. So we have to think about you know, people are not always Not taking proper care of their animals because they don't want to sometimes they they literally can't. We have we think about like individuals that are maybe handicapped elderly that physically can't can't take them out and just being able to being able to assist them.

No, that's a big issue and and I think of the number of vet schools throughout the nation like CSU, which I think is one of the best schools, you know, in the world but they send their students to Montana on the reservations or they go down to Mexico. So, like, why not. Just go over on the poor side of Colorado, you know, there's all kinds of people over there small community I go on the Eastern Plains and these small towns and set up and do 50 to 100 animals a day Yeah, you know and there's a demand for that all the time So like, you know, but everybody it comes back to state boards and everybody being afraid of being sued, you know And and it's like look You guys should be in charge. You're leaders in this field. So instead of, you know, they have a, right now they're connected with one of the big humane organizations. And I think it's an all hospital hospital there, but they don't do anything, you know, like they're not open on weekends at five o'clock, all the parvo animals, they kick out, they have to find places to go. If they didn't explore, they send it out. I've had three explorers go out that I know of that have died from that place because they were not, you know, followed up on it, taken care of properly, you know, and that's considered you. a standard of care, you know, but they get away with it because they have the connections. I, I don't get it at all. And it's really disturbing to me, you know, that we should, we could do so much more in our own backyard. Uh, and we just don't.

Yeah, I think that teaching this, again, it comes back to the students. I, I don't know how much we can change the minds of people that are already out there and practicing that have gotten used to certain ways of living and practicing and stuff. But that's where I feel that, you know, helping the students learn and, and engage in community service so that they, they want to give back. Because we, we look as well as, as far as back to the concept of accessibility. The rural areas don't have veterinarians, but I don't feel like the vet schools are getting kids that are in rural areas. And it's, and to me, it's really simple math. It's you have a kid that, that grows up in a rural area. What do they grow up to be? They grow up to be what they see. Well, there's no veterinarians around. They don't grow up working in veterinary clinics or, you know, helping with animals and doing that kind of stuff. So they don't have a role model to look up to. So those kids, I don't feel that they're necessarily applying to vet school. So the kids that are applying to vet school, do they want to graduate and then go work in rural Ohio? For making less than what they can make in a corporate clinic with bonuses and everything else. The answer is no, right? So I think that we have to, we have to figure out ways, like, think outside the box to look for ways to engage the students and hopefully other veterinarians that are getting tired of general practice, corporate veterinary medicine to practice in these areas. And part of it is we have to figure out how to properly compensate them so that they can go to, to those places. Um, because yeah, I mean, the, the need is great. And I just think that, you know, we, there are ways of helping the veterinary shortage, you know, we have to increase the number of veterinarians and hopefully the, the ability of the technicians to do more stuff. But we also have to figure out ways to rework our current structure.

No, and you're right, you do have to target, you know, find the bad areas and target those areas, you know, uh, Dr. Bushby with the Mississippi State, they go out and they go to the rural environment, but, you know, that's one bus or, you know, a group of kids and you can only do so much, you know, when you're training and stuff, and that's reality, we need people that are like you, like me, that can do the numbers and get out and try to make a difference in areas, but, you know, like, there's only so many hours in a day, it's just, it seems overwhelming at times. Thank you. Um, but it's not. I mean, you know, the mere fact we're not, we're, there's probably 20 million animals a year we're not killing right now, which is a real positive thing. But, you know, you look at the top, say, 10 humane societies in America, and they're worth well over a billion dollars all combined. But how many spay neuter clinics are they opening? You know, the, the pet industry is a 60 billion industry, and it goes up a couple billion every year. I saw obviously probably a little dip during COVID. I don't know. Um, but in the end, there's plenty of money out there. So it's not a lack of funds, you know, it's a lack of desire and lack of, you know, thinking outside the box and wanting to make a difference, you know, um, they really are trying to teach the students to come out and follow the party line. And, um, you know, make you make your millions, I guess. I don't know. Money is a short term motivator. Now, I feel sorry for the kids coming out that have two or three hundred thousand dollars in debt. Um, and that has to be dealt with without a doubt. But, you know, that, that's, uh, that's not just a veterinary thing. That's across the America thing. You know, college just got out of control. Um, but in the end, you know, I just feel like we can do so much more than what we're doing.

Yeah. And I think that's where, again, like mentorship, uh, Mentorship opportunities and teaching, like what you're doing, what we're doing, just so that these students can graduate and be practice ready. Because a lot of these veterinary students graduate and they're licensed to do surgery, but they have no idea what they're doing because their experience with surgery is like one spay that they spend three and a half hours doing, right? So they, they're. Uh, their abilities, you know, we have to, to do better as far as teaching them so that they can, they can graduate confident and efficient. I tell all these students doing 50 surgeries in a day is not rushing through the surgeries. Doing a lot of surgeries in a day is about being efficient and being efficient is so good because the animals under anesthesia less amount of time. So they don't have as much risk with that. Their temperatures don't go down as much. Their incisions are not as big. They're not uncomfortable. And then the client comes in and picks up a pet with a one centimeter incision. And they're so happy to see it as opposed to, you know, you come in and like, actually the other day was, yes, was talking about the 10 centimeter incision in the 15 centimeter dog. So being able to learn to do that, because then what we're seeing here, and I don't know if you're experiencing that as well, is that people are finding it easier to get small animals and cats and small animals. Fixed, but not the large dogs, especially the large female dogs, because there's not the, the ability to do that. But then we have some veterinarians that are teaching people to wait until their large breed dogs are 150 pounds before they fix it, because if not, they're going to have orthopedic problems. So then we're telling people, let your dog get to be over 100 pounds. So you can fix it, but then when it gets that big, well, we can't fix it anymore.

Yeah, yeah, not are they're too old. You know, I like that one is a six year old dog. That's too old to fix. It's like, no, it's not too old to fix. And then I'm a power meet you right now. And I probably will next year. You know, it's like, I don't. So some of the stuff I've seen just curls my hair. But I also get. You know, when I watched some of these students, like, you know, if it's going to take you three or four hours to do a surgery and you got to do IVs and all that kind of stuff for a routine, what I would consider routine space should take more than 20 minutes, you know, on a bad day for a big dog, then like, I get it why they got to charge so much, you know, they're losing their ass.

Right. No, and that's what I try to explain to people because, you know, because of how low we charge, a lot of people say, well, how are you charging this low? And my regular bed is charging a lot more. And I tell them, it's all about efficiency. It's all, it's about overhead as well. I have less overhead as a mobile practice than a stationary practice. But if I can do 30 surgeries, I can clearly Charge less than somebody who is only doing five or six surgeries in a day, right? And, and they may not be doing only five surgeries because they don't want to do more than that is because physically they're unable to do it. So that's why I think that the, the additional training for, for students, you know, if more veterinarians would take in students and teach them rather than just having them come in and, you know, go do vaccines because that's all you know how to do. And never really train them and empower them, then we're not gonna. Move ahead, right? What, what is your... Now you

can do vaccines and anal glands.

Right, yeah, and the occasional ear infection. Yeah, exactly. So, what are, what are your thoughts as far as age of sterilization? Like, what are your requirements for age of sterilization at your clinic? I

gotta have a heartbeat. That's pretty much my requirement. Now, I, you know, obviously, I'm fixed by five months. Esther Mechler is like a second mom to me. She's an amazing human being. And, you know, she does the fixed by five. They got the AVMAs on board with that. So that's for cats, alright? So that's by five months. Um, I say fixed by five, I mean five weeks in my mind. So I go down to five, if I'm traveling to reservations, places like that, we go down to five weeks, you know, uh, pretty readily. Obviously, if you have an owned animal and dealing with a client, well, it makes more sense to go through and get all the vaccines, have the last one at 16 weeks and get them before they get to be five months, you know. Um, I'm going to be doing a lecture real soon. I've done it in the past, but it's basically on, you know, uh, Why we spay neuter, when to spay neuter, and the controversy of spay neuter, you know, and then a lot of stuff's come out of UC Davis, as you may have read about different things, but they're really, it's very bad science. And there's a real difference between correlation versus causation. But you know, if you look like the Banfield study of 2013, where they did 460, 000 cats and what was it 2. 2 million dogs. In the end, the conclusion was fixed animals live longer. Okay, fixed animals get more cancer. Well, they live longer. Humans live longer. They get more cancer, too. You know, if you're living two or three years longer, and when you consider it's supposed to be seven years for one, that's like 20 years longer than you're living. If you're 60 to 80, well, you're probably going to get cancer in there, you know? So, uh, I mean, a lot of the, a lot of the literature is not good science is what it boils down to. And there's probably some things that may be somewhat realistic, you know, hip dysplasia, maybe more of a problem with giant breed dogs. But if you look at all the specific things they name, most of it has to do with breed, you know, like, if you think osteosarcoma, what's the first breed that comes to mind? A Rottweiler, you know, well, you know, so. Have we bred that gene into them to make them more susceptible to that? So instead of maybe not spaying it till it's a certain age, maybe we should figure out and breed that gene back out of it. So it doesn't ever get osteosarc, you know, or make it a lot less likely. So, but you know, we don't, we don't spend our time energy on that, you know, so I don't know, you know, it's, uh, I, I'm still a believer in spay, neuter, every longevity study that's ever been done says that fixed animals live longer, you know, three to five years longer for cats, one to three on dogs. I'll take that every time with my dog. So, and if I have to do a knee surgery, I'm "so what?", I'd rather do the knee surgery for three years and I'll, I'm okay with that.

Oh yeah. And I interviewed Dr. Bushby for the podcast because I wanted to break down all the research, all that UC Davis research. Because that's what everybody is always like citing. And we went over all the biases and everything else. And I told him, you know, yeah, I had a Great Dane and I spayed her about five months because I wanted to do a pexy as well. So I waited until she was five months old, spayed her and had a pexy. And she did die of an osteosarcoma. However, she was 13 years old. So you know

what? Exactly. That's a, that's an old great Dane. Yes.

Exactly. And it's like, you know, animals have to pass away from something. So whether they're, they're dying at eight or they're dying at 15, there's something there. So yeah, we have to take into consideration the correlation and causation. The other thing is that people say, Oh, well, I don't want to spay or neuter my dog because it's going to get fat. You know how many fat dogs. That are five plus years old. I spay regularly. Oh yeah. It's not just, you know, being intact doesn't mean that your dog's not going to

get fat. I hate to say it. We live in a country. I had people come in. They're grossly obese with a grossly obese dog. They clearly feed all the time. And they say, yeah, I don't want to spay her because you're going to get fat. And I think, God, are you fixed? So you got spayed? You know, cause I mean, like. You know, I mean, because in the end, there's, there's, it's real, it's real plain. It's how much exercise you get, how much food you eat. Those, I mean, we want the magic pill and all that. And I understand some people are more genetically prone, but I, I've coached distance running and I've had kids that come in high school that are just obese and they've worked out with me and they've lost 80 to a hundred pounds in high school. And I know one kid has been out for like almost 10 years. He's still running and you, you know, like he's, he's not thin by any means, but he's not obese anymore either. He's fit, you know, and you can be. Thick and still be fit. You know, you don't have to be obese. It's the same thing with our animals. They don't have to be obese. You know, they can be a little bit thicker. Rottweiler is going to be a little thicker than a Chihuahua, you know, but you know, I mean, we basically have Ottomans that come in here like, you know, like all they are just square tables. And I mean, that's just overfeeding and no exercise, plain and simple. And that has nothing to do with being fixed. Not, you know, in those studies that look at being fixed. Okay. What? They don't do background. Okay, there's a difference with intact male. It's on a chain and outside that may get fed once a day. It may not. And a dog is sleeping on your bed, you know, it's getting extra food and table scraps, you know? So, uh, a lot of it, it's our own doing, let's face it. You know, we, we like to share our food.

Right. Exactly. And I mean, I, I always, I'll tell people we have an option, right? If we are overweight, we have an option to go to the fridge and feed ourselves. But for our animals to be overweight, we do that to them. It's the whole killing them with, with love, you know, because yeah, this morning I was eating and my cat is like right in my face asking me for, for food and sadly for my cats. I have a very, like, I, I don't give in, so they just, uh, you know, they don't get, they don't get table scraps, so my cats were, uh, spayed, neutered, I have a boy and a girl, and they were done very, very early on, and they're not overweight, they're not obese, because their weight is, is managed, but I also, you know, they get, they exercise within the house and that kind of stuff, like we have to, you know. We have to do, do better by them rather than looking for the, for the easy fix or the, or the easy quick pill, right? I've always

had fixed animals and none of my animals are overweight. My, you know, you can look at my golden Fred and he goes out for two, three, four hour hikes with, with Petra, Dr. Petra all the time. I mean, you know, and he gets fed really well, but we just don't overfeed him, you know, and we make sure he gets the proper exercise. And it's, it's not rocket science, you know, um, but everybody wants the easy fix and there's no easy fix. Well, at least not yet that I'm aware of. Right.

So, what are going to be the, the most common things that you see at your practice that, that come in?

Uh, we do a lot of knees, a lot of FHOs, but you know, spay neuter, we have our spay neuter day every Wednesday. We do spay neuter pretty much every day, but that's our spay neuter day period. But we do right now, because we're 30 minutes outside of Denver, we're not down, down in Denver anymore. Um, We're getting a lot of Explorers, a lot of Splanectomies, you know, because they're being quoted once again, eight, 10, 12, 000. And, you know, we top out at 2000, a lot of times less we're on a sliding scale. And also, um, so sometimes we do them for nothing, but we don't tell people. But, uh, so, you know, we're, you know, and that's the point you can start out a certain, you can't raise your price, but, you know, we started high income down, you know, but you can't start the bottom and go out. Well, how much can you do afford? You can get another quarter, right? Uh, so a lot of times it is kind of shaking quarters out of people, you know, because as a nonprofit, my goal is for us to make enough money to make our payroll, at least, you know, that's always been my goal to make our payroll. And if we do extra things in terms of going out to a small community and do an extra spay neuter or going to reservations or send a suture overseas, I That comes from the extra money from people that donate to us, you know, uh, and we have great fans that follow us and that give us money. So that, that's always good. Um, you know, but once again, we were around for 30, 30 years as a for profit and a very profitable for profit, I might add, you know, we did really well. Switching over to a nonprofit was kind of a decision I made because of the TV show as much as anything. And then I can't say it's been a great decision, good one way or the other. Uh, just, it is what it is. It seems like we're working just as hard as we ever have. And, uh, money's tight all the time. But part of that was COVID increasing people's pay and those, those kinds of things, you know? So,

as you mentioned, as far as payroll, being able to make payroll, like that's our biggest expense, right? Because we invest in our people. So, we, one of the, one of the issues that we were discussing before we started recording was as far as, you know, technicians and, and assistants from other veterinary clinics that come to see us because they cannot afford care at their place. And my thoughts on that are always, are they not being paid enough? Right? Because then they, they, they should be able to afford whatever the place is, or is the place charging too much, like, or, or is it both? Uh, because I'm, I'm, I would, I'm happy to say that my technicians, all my employees, they would be able to afford, even without a discount, the cost that I charge for their, for their

pets. I've had people that fired and brought their animals to me because they, you know, it was like, can we please see my dog and he's this problem, you know, because they've been quoted because they know we do a good job. They know what we do, you know, so, uh, yeah. And that's a big part of it. I agree. I mean, they, um, plus, I don't know. I just find it weird that. Maybe it's a corporate thing, but again, it's someone that works for you. So do you got to charge them at all? I mean, maybe cover your costs. I get that, you know, like, and we're a nonprofit. So, you know, if I do something, well, you know, like what's the cost of the blood work, you know, if it costs us 20 bucks, can you pay the 20 bucks, you know, right. And we're not going to charge you 40 bucks or whatever, you know, and I would never count my time. If I'm doing a surgery for one of my, one of the people that works for me or a close friend, I never count my time. You know, I just, uh, I don't do it. So. We try to make things reasonable for the people that we care about and that care about us, I guess, is the point.

Yeah, exactly. We want to take care of each other because I see a lot of articles and stuff saying your co workers are not your family. Get that out of your mind. But I do see my co workers as my family, right? I see them as my kids and I got to take care of them and they kind of, in return, they kind of take care of me, right? We're like, we all take care of each other. So I'm not here to, to profit off my staff. I mean, I don't, I don't profit of any one person that I serve, so why would I even profit off my staff?

I understand. I agree with you 110%.

Is there anything that you would tell, you know, either young veterinarians, new graduates or, uh, veterinary students? What kind of words of wisdom would you, would you tell them when we have so many people leaving the profession?

I think more than anything that money is a short term motivator and there's. You're only limited by your imagination. I think so many people are afraid to start up their own business, you know, but, uh, I'm real proud of so many of the vets, almost every vet that's worked for me that's left and started their own practice because they've learned so much while they were here and they feel confident doing it. So, I mean, to me, that's a, that's saying something, cause it's probably a good. You know, 15 people that I can think of and start practice in different states or, you know, a couple in Colorado. Um, so that really means something to me. So I think, you know, I think, uh, reaching out to main organizations, you know, depending on where you're from. Uh, and I think trying to come back to a plan, Peter and actually come out to Colorado. We'll teach you stuff, you know what I mean? Be willing to learn, keep an open mind, and realize you can make a decent living without having to screw over anybody over. You know, uh, enjoy, enjoy what you do. I love working with the animals. I love working with people, you know, and I just, I think there's so much out there that can be done, and uh, you know, once you get in that corporate mode, you don't see it, you can't see the forest for the trees. What did you get in the profession for? You know, if you just want money, I'm okay with that. We'll get a corporate job. If you want to make a difference in people's lives and animals lives, you've got to refocus and broaden your horizons.

And we have to be okay with the people, right? Like so many people say, I want to work with animals because I don't like people. If you don't like people, forget it. Cause the animal doesn't bring itself. Right. Not since the Dr. Doolittle Rex Harrison movie where the animals just brought themselves. Like we have to take care of the people. Um, so yeah, this has been. Amazing. This has probably been the most fun interview that I have done so far since I started this podcast. So I, I just really want to thank you for, for being here. I want to thank you for doing what you do, because I mean, we are on the same wavelength. We are halfway different areas of the Of the country, but kind of doing the same thing. So thank you so very much. All the best of luck. Thank you. And to And to everybody that's listening. I hope that you got some good information about what we discussed here And thank you so much for listening and thank you so much for caring about animals

And if you want to come down to mexico sometime do one of our big spay neuter clinics, you're welcome We got a beautiful place down there and uh, you know, you get down there. We house you and take care of you. So

Fantastic. I may take you up on that Okay

Thank you so much Dr. Jeff. Thank you.