Greetings, friends. My name is Jess McLean, and I'm here to provide you with some blueprints

of disruption. This weekly podcast is dedicated to amplifying the work of activists, examining

power structures, and sharing the success stories from the grassroots. Through these discussions,

we hope to provide folks with the tools and the inspiration they need to start to dismantle

capitalism, decolonize our spaces, and bring about the political revolution that we know

we need. that the history of the fossil fuel divestment movement exists in a longer history

of resistance to colonialism, a longer history of resistance to state violence. Like we exist

in a lineage of people that have fought and have won. The world-ending scenarios that we

experience now are not new to many communities, to many people, but there's always been resistance

to that. And I think sharing that with students and giving them that knowing that we can win

what we need to win. because history proves that we are able to win. And then also living

in like the belly of the beast per se, our responsibility is to ensure that we are doing what needs to

be done to reduce the harm that's being inflicted abroad. That was Celine from the Organization

Change Course. In a moment, she will introduce herself as will her two comrades. And as they

do, we learn a lot because as they... each describe how they personally got to this point of organizing,

we also get a brief history of the divestment movement itself. We hear about its benefits,

its complexities, as well as the theory of change that drives change courses work with post-secondary

students. And it wouldn't be a discussion about campus organizing if we didn't talk about the

increased

hard to normalize violent police responses to deal with student demonstrations of all kinds,

not just encampments. How does this impact students determined to push back or organizations like

this who have tasked themselves with going after the pillars of power? Let's listen in and find

out. My name is Celine, I use she-ha pronouns. I am a climate organizer, climate justice organizer,

who started off within African organizing, because I grew up in Cape Town, South Africa, and so

that's a big part of why it is that I organize within the climate movement and then also movement

spaces more broadly. I am currently the co-campus organizing lead at Changecourse, one of the

more recent hires. And I work to support the recruitment pipeline disruption strategy that

we have. So supporting student organizers on various campuses, training, mentoring, and

skill building young organizers on campuses, who are doing climate justice work, and then

also various divestment campaigns on the campus, and in particular, the strategy looks to disrupt

the recruitment pipeline of big banks on the campus, because we know that big banks like

RBC are interested in students in youth. future customers and then also the future workforce.

And so in the support, we're just really trying to say that if big banks like RBC don't stop

the investments in these destructive industries, students will stop their labor at these big

banks. So really just supporting young organizers and skill building, because that's necessary,

not just within the work we do, but broadly, necessary skills in just general life, yeah.

Did I hear you correctly? A recruitment and disruption pipeline? What was that phrase?

Recruitment pipeline disruption. I like that. I feel like that's the episode title. Anyway,

sorry, I had to make sure I heard you correctly there. These are definitely my kind of people.

Evelyn, can you please introduce yourself? Yeah, so my name is Evelyn. I use she and her pronouns.

And I work with ChangeCourse. I've been here since we founded in 2021. So I was formerly

a student at U of T studying. math which has nothing to do with what I do now. And got was

kind of like on the periphery of my campus' divestment campaign. So U of T kind of has

a history like many Canadian schools where there was like a really strong divestment campaign.

It was brought forward to the board of governors. There was going to be a vote on whether or

not to move forward. Everybody was recommending like divest from fossil fuels. That's the way

to go. And then the president said actually no we're not going to do that and crack down

and... So that kind of fell apart and then this new campus group called Leap U of T emerged,

founded by somebody named Julia. And I knew her and was kind of on the periphery and not

super involved. And then sort of towards the end of my, I guess third year, got a lot more

involved with the campus U of T divestment work. So looking at trying to pressure U of T to

end their investments in fossil fuels. And from there got involved with what was called the

Divest Canada Coalition. So coming out of the pandemic, we were all kind of forced online

and in this very new context of campus organizing, trying to figure out like, what do we do? How

do we keep up the momentum on our universities knowing that we can't actually be on the physical

space where they kind of hold all this power and emphasis. And so that became a coalition

of student groups across Canada who just kind of got together during the pandemic and we're

like, we have. all this time and we have to be on Zoom anyway so we can talk to each other

sort of across provinces and share strategy. And that was really helpful to me and sort

of building up my understanding of like why we do this, why we target schools because I

think I like had this understanding of like our schools are involved with or are invested

in fossil fuels and that's bad but I think really being able to kind of engage with other organizers

across the country really deepened my analysis. And from there, a group of us got really interested

in banks and the roles that banks have to play. So universities are sort of one pillar of power

of the fossil fuel industry, but banks are like a huge other beast. And so that pivoted some

of us to start thinking about, well, what is the role that banks play in this? How could

we target banks as student organizers? And we got together with some climate strikers from

the West Coast and all kind of started having conversations, which led me to change course.

So that's kind of like a bio slash how I got here. Um, and currently I work as the executive

director of Change Course. There's a team of about 4.5 of us. Who's that 0.5? We won't tell

them. Yeah. It's like, we've got like a part-time, part-time person. Her name is Alyssa. She's

lovely. She does a lot of social media for us. She's a student at Trent. She's great. She

is a whole person. Yes. Yeah. We're a very small team. Um, but I work as the, the EOD, um, which

sometimes feels a little bit silly because we're so small, but yeah. I'll pass to Levi. Hi,

my name's Levi Clarkson. I use they, them pronouns. And I've been organizing in the student movement

for almost eight years now. I'm one of the campus organizing co-leads at Change Course. And I

started organizing for free education and support for survivors of gender-based violence on campuses,

which led me to join the fight for indigenous land rights and climate justice, just seeing.

how those issues are so interwoven and intersect, and they really are all the same fight. So

that led me here. And in my role as campus organizing co-lead, I get to support student organizers

on campuses across the country through training, mentoring, and skill development. It's a pleasure

to work with Celine on that. And in particular, I support students who are organizing for their

student union or university administration to cut ties with RBC as student unions and university

administration are the groups that are entering into contracts with RBC that allow them to

have on-campus branches and sponsorship deals, which they then use to greenwash their image

amongst young people. So that's kind of the difference between Celine and I's role is just

supporting groups with different strategy and different targets. Let's talk a little bit

more about ChangeCourse as an organization. It's interesting how you all got here from

different places, but that totally reads when you look at the website. It's a very eclectic

approach, it seems like. So let's unpack them maybe one at a time, but they're going to blend

into one another. But I'd like to talk about divestment. First, let's talk about the benefits,

but also some of the drawbacks. There's maybe two, there's like one distinction here that

I'll just make and maybe come back to. So there's divestment in the context of like fossil fuel

divestment, for example, where students are asking for their university to pull their university's

endowments investments from the fossil fuel industry. And then there's the work around

banks, which has is not technically about divestment and is more to do with asking major banks,

not so much asking, demanding that major banks stop financing fossil fuel projects and fossil

fuel expansion projects and projects that violate the rights of indigenous people. And so the

difference there is that one is about equity holding, and so how many shares you have in

a company, and one is about we are not going to give a loan to build this project. And so

there's kind of a difference there in terms of how much material impact is made. But I

think coming back to the question of like, divestment is a tool. I think it's a complicated one and

it's one like we don't pretend as like the be all end all, like it's not the ultimate solution.

And I think the benefits of it though, I would say is that ultimately it's about social license

and stigmatization. And so I think this is kind of rooted in our theory of change, but particularly

with university campuses. And I think one of the reasons that like BDS and the South African

apartheid divestment movement. and the Diocesan Tobacco Movement have all emerged on university

campuses is because they're such unique sites of power within the sort of like Western society

and Western paradigm that we live in and that they're like research centers, they're where

like our politicians come from and there's just a lot of deep ties between private corporations

and universities and like really high-ranking public officials and universities and for that

reason. there's kind of like this critical lens on universities at all times looking at like,

well, what's happening there? And so I think divestment emerged in the fossil fuel context

out of the early 2010s. And I think there's like a distinction in that like, I think a

story that often gets overlooked is that the first divestment movement came out of Swarthmore's

campus in the States. And it was because a group of students traveled to Appalachia and came

back and saw the impacts that communities were facing from mountaintop. coal removal there

and sort of wondered, well, what can we do as students at this kind of elite university who

are pretty removed from this? And the solution they came up with was, well, we can run this

fossil fuel divestment campaign and advocate for our university to divest from coal. And

so that our university is not implicitly like profiting off of what's happening there. And

that really snowballed in the early 2010s following the UN Copenhagen climate crisis or climate

convention. when I think the general kind of feeling walking away from that conference was

that it was a total failure, nothing was really agreed on. And the reason that was pointed

to is that up until that point, politicians and companies and civil society were trying

to sit down with fossil fuel companies and like ask them to be reasonable and ask them to sort

of rethink what they're doing, which they're not going to do at the end of the day. Their

bottom line is to extract and make profit. And so sort of an attempt to say, okay, like they're

not going to work with us. So we have to stigmatize this industry. We have to make it like we have

to build this negative connotation with being involved with this industry. The reality is,

is that when a university pulls their investments from fossil fuels, um, that doesn't make a

lot of material impact on the industry itself. Like those shares will go up to market. They'll

be bought by somebody else. Everything will continue, but it does have a really powerful

say in that, like the way that money moves and the way that money is spent and invested is

very, um, We're taught it's very not political and that like you invest your money here and

here and here, you diversify your portfolio, you increase your returns, and that's just

the way that it goes. We don't question it. And so by kind of putting this critical lens

on that and really questioning what that means and why we do that, there is a pretty powerful,

I think, social impact that has kind of snowballed into this bigger movement that has ultimately

led us to be like, well, now that we've kind of built that foundation for what it means

to take away. like material capital support from an industry, how do we then apply that

to major debt financing institutions that are providing the loans that are actually needed

to make these projects move forward? That stigma is important, right? That stigma is important

because we're seeing a lot of people who realize things aren't all right, right? Maybe not climate

related, but just in general. And they're not pointed in the right direction. They don't

know who their enemy is, right? And again, a lot of people maybe realize where the problem

is, but they are stuck trying to sit at those tables still, plead, build relationships with

capital as though they can convince them. And that's a lot of wasted energy. So I'm starting

to understand the benefits of divestment beyond any kind of material hits that the bank might

take. Yeah. And I would also say like, when it comes to the universities, another angle

was like, I think there had been this I was not super around at that time, I was pretty

young, but I think kind of early 2000s up to the early 2010s, there was a lot of emphasis

of like, make the company, make the decision to change. And so the divestment movement on

campuses at least was an attempt to step back and say, well, they're not going to change,

but like, what are the pillars that sit under them that we can change that will kind of offset

their power or take away some of that power and universities is a big one. As I said before,

I was like a site of. just like a lot of social power, a lot of social influence. And so I

think those kind of come from, those are like the benefits of what I would say divestment

is. I think in terms of like your question around limitations, it definitely, yeah, like I said,

like in terms of the university level divestment, it doesn't make a huge material impact necessarily.

And then I think ultimately it's like, it's not the be all end all. We can pull our investments

from fossil fuels, but wherever they end up going are likely going to be extractive. harmful

profit-driven industries. And so there is this kind of like constant, it doesn't dismantle

capitalism by any means. It just kind of uses what we can as a tool to leverage our power.

And so I think then kind of coming back to the distinction between, when it comes to the banks

work, ultimately what we're trying to do is apply pressure via campuses and all these campus

connections because these companies are competing. to get attention on campus because they know

that these are really unique kind of spaces where they're competing for customers, they're

competing for like top talent as they say, they're in this like talent war with each other to

try to recruit the best folks to come and work for them and so on and so forth. So they really

care about their image on campuses and they really care about taking up space on campuses.

And so we know that that's something that can be leveraged and similar tactics can be used

to kind of... focus in on those sort of strategic points of intervention to ultimately move these

big financial institutions to say, okay, like we're not gonna finance these new projects.

And that would have more of a material impact on the way that these projects would move forward.

It would make them slower. It would make them more expensive. It would make it harder for

them to find the needed capital that they need to keep expanding. Well, any thorn in their

side is a good thing, right? Any thorn in their side. Do either Levi or Celine want to touch

on the choice of divestment as a tactic before we kind of branch off into campus organizing?

Yeah, Levi. Yeah, just on the stigma piece and kind of reputational damage, I think our movement

poses a really big reputational risk to the banks and the work that we do, particularly

on campuses like Evelyn mentioned. RBC and the Big Five Banks pour millions of dollars into

having these on-campus branches and on-campus presence for a reason. And it's definitely

not the benefit of students or promoting financial literacy, which is what they love to say, that

they're there to like support students with their financial literacy. Meanwhile, if you're

on the ground on campus, you can see there's like never anyone in these branches a lot of

the time. It's really just taking up that space. And RBC really uses this as like a branding

thing, a promotional thing. We see the same thing happening with like, uh, RBC pouring

so much money into sponsoring certain things on campuses, whether that's a food bank or,

um, uh, yes, it's disgusting, right? Yeah. Super cringe of RBC to try to. sponsor food banks

or, you know, women's and sports initiatives or sustainability centers on campus. And, you

know, they're doing that to greenwash their image. They're doing that to say, look, students,

we're your ally. We want to, you know, provide these things for you. But we know that what

they really want is to manipulate students into coming to work for them, to bank with them.

And so... by calling out RBC's presence on campus and protesting that presence and taking steps

to kick RBC off campus, that presents a really big reputational risk to them. So I think that

is what is most impactful about our strategy. Yeah, that reminds me of, I spoke to the writers

against the war on Gaza about their disruption of the Giller Prize, but their target there

is Scotiabank and- through their tactics, they were able to make it so that Scotiabank spent

all of this marketing money to look really bad, right? So let RBC try to spend all that money

to get on campus. That just gives you folks a nice target, a nice spot for red paint, perhaps,

just suggestions. But, yeah, a way to really turn their dollars against them. When we're

talking about students, it's... it's assumed, but I'm just going to articulate it like they're

our future, right? So if they are learning this in school along with their majors in math and

all these other things, this is a good thing. If they see banks as the enemy and not as their

benefactor, that is a step in itself. Like that is raising class consciousness baseline, right?

And to do that at university, which is grounds for things beyond social movements that like

revolutionary even, right? Salim, you're doing a lot of the organizing on the campus. Is this

an easy entry point for students? You know, the divestment movement? Because in university,

maybe, maybe not. Things change since I've been there. I'm a little bit older, but people generally

become a little more politically aware and active in their university years. Although high school

students are, are we allowed to say woke anymore? I mean, they are already in it now when that

wasn't. when I was the case, but do you find like this is a receptive stream to recruit

campus students into the climate justice fight? So Liva and I both support the campus organizing,

the underground organizing, and I would say that there are multitudes to the ways that

students come into the fight. I think a lot of there are a lot of students that come into

the fight from the point of climate justice more broadly. I know for myself. That's how

I then started thinking about divestment and like someone who believes in anti-capitalism

and that it's necessary for a climate just future was like, oh, okay, how do I understand the

flow of capital and how do we disrupt capital? And so I think people come into this movement

more broadly through a climate justice lens. And I think that over the last at least five

years, there's been increased focus. and a boom in young people questioning systems and questioning

why things are the way they are. I think that divestment within climate justice is sort of

like, you start off within climate justice, you start off within an issue space within

climate justice again, whether it's looking at environmental racism, looking at the impact

of, what is it? whether in your particular community and how that's constantly changing, whether

it's looking at food systems, whatever it is in your locale or the areas that students are

coming from, they start off at that position because the person is political, they're thinking

and questioning about their daily life. And then afterwards, students come into climate

justice. And then divestment, I think, and fossil fuel divestment feels like once you're in the

broad category of climate justice, you're going in a little deeper, like you're focusing in

a little bit more How do we then enact, what do we need to do to get a climate just future?

Like what do we need to do to ensure that people are able to live and thrive and get everything

that they need and then some. And then fossil fuel divestment I think is like, if you're

trying to focus in on what you're doing. And so I think I wouldn't say that students necessarily

immediately come into divestment and I'm. doing this long-winded way of answering, because

as someone who is a black environmental organizer, divestment wasn't necessarily something that

I was immediately drawn to. And I don't think members of my community at large, en masse,

are also immediately drawn to, because there are other things that we are focusing on. There

are other things that are front of mind. But then climate justice creates the space where

we get to think a little more critically. We get to think a little more strategy-focused.

And then we're saying... on these various campuses, people are doing climate justice work. And

then there's this bank's campaign on the campus, but it's not the only thing that students are

doing within their work. They are also including calling the students at their universities

to divest. They are also trying to see how do we better politically educate students about

what's happening, how we make climate political, how do we, for example, support actions on

campus beyond just. divestment actions on campus. So I'm saying this to say that's all encompassing.

Divestment, as we were talking earlier, is just a tool within the broader fight for climate

justice. And then I think people also just, again, come in from different locales. And

then afterwards we're like, okay, you have this energy, you have this hunger, you have this

appetite to do something. Here's a place that you as a student are able to enact change within

your campus environment that... in the longer strategy, like longer term, has reverberating

effects. So if one campus is doing a divestment campaign, multiple campuses can join in and

collectively across the country, you've got people doing that nationwide impact on these

big banks, on the fossil fuel industry, that stigmatization, that removal of the social

license, socializing language of divestment, and socializing the fact that... using our

dollar or using our position as youth, as future workers, to then say, we don't want this and

you're going to listen to us. And then they, and with increased pressure, they do, or they

try to like change their ways and be through the organizing we do on campus, through the

mentoring, through the training, creating a legacy of students that are able to spot the

lies and reading between the lines so that once they leave... university campuses in the workplaces

that they are in. They are then able to use those necessary skills to work within their

workplaces within the communities beyond just the campus environment. I can't tell you how

heartwarming it is for me to hear you say that there has been a shift in the last few years

in terms of class consciousness. I think I've said it like three times, but that is sometimes

the biggest battle. When Levi said it's all the same fight, it is all the same fight and

like that sometimes is the barrier. Folks will not understand or not have the skills to do

what they know they need to do. So let's talk a little bit about building those skills on

campus and what it looks like. What could more people use to leverage their power? Whether

it be students, tenants, workers. disabled people en masse, you know, people power, right? We

have people power, but not unless we can leverage it well. So can you give us an idea on what

you're giving to students collectively learning together? I know like giving sounds so paternalistic,

but what are they learning that's going to turn them into the revolutionaries we need tomorrow?

What I was gonna say for the previous question is exactly what you just talked about, Jessa.

So yeah, I can start us off on this. Yeah, I think what we've heard from students about

this campaign, which warms my heart, is that this campaign, the RBC Off Campus campaign,

is really like kind of like an organizing incubator in a way where it really allows folks to gain

skills that can be transferred to literally any movement, any other issue that they wanna

work on. And like Celine said, we have students that are working across multiple issues. that

maybe don't necessarily come to our space with climate being the first thing on their mind

as well. Sometimes it's other things like the cost of living, indigenous rights, all of these

pieces that relate back to what the banks are doing as well. But we have amazing student

groups that are making those connections on their campuses. Students are really concerned

about where their money is going, right? And where their institution is spending that money,

how they're spending it. And so I think it's super cool that This generation of students

is really interested in the financial aspect of where their money is going. And in terms

of skills that I think students who come through our campaign and are part of our campaign,

it's wide ranging. I think this campaign, because it is so targeted against like RBC and the

Big Five banks, like students are able to engage in a really direct way with like a specific

target, which is amazing. it allows them to really build out specific strategy around like

mapping how power works on their campuses, gain a better understanding of how the board of

governors works and senate and all these pieces that they're able to learn through this campaign,

how their university's financing works, as well as their student union. They're able to gain

a lot of canvassing skills, talking to people, talking to people about what issues matter

to them and tying it back to the campaign and what students want to see on campus, really

building power with their peers. A lot of our student groups are building coalitions on their

campuses and doing coalition building work, which is super amazing. A lot of media skills,

storytelling skills, direct action skills. I think something unique about our campaign is

that, you know, we're not just doing advocacy. We're doing organizing work. We're doing direct

action.

building students' confidence, being able to do actions on campus and feel what it feels

like in your body to take some risks and start to build that risk tolerance for future actions,

whether that's on campus or in community. Similar to Levi, it's really exciting to be with a

student group and to see them from like start to maybe graduation if we are lucky enough.

or see them like from start of the term to end of the term. And it's really one-on-one relationship

building that we do. I think that what's beautiful about Change Course, because I was a student

like on the receiving end of a lot of the trainings that were given to a group that I was organizing

with at the University of Waterloo, for example, and what I really enjoyed as a student was

that responsiveness to what students need on their various campus. So yes, we are. targeting

a big bank and yes we're doing this bank's work right but then there are also particular issue

points on various campuses that are unique to that location that also need action right and

so it's really fun to be able to see and really like fulfilling to be able to see students

make the necessary connections the necessary coalitions to be able to build that student

power on their campus because they get to understand that we are stronger together than we are apart.

and universities thrive, just like the system itself, thrives on divide and conquer. But

students are like breaking down the barrier, breaking down silos. And through the skill

building and through the training, Levi mentioned a couple of things that we help support in

terms of training, power mapping, power analysis, direct action. many different things that are

needed to build out a campaign, campaigns 101, canvassing, relational organizing, how to talk

to people that are outside of your sphere about a particular issue point. These are necessary

skills, not just for climate organizing, but for life in general. If we are going to win

the things we need to win, we need to be able to talk to our neighbor. We need to be able

to talk to people in our communities. And so seeing students actually do that and seeing

students get excited to host events. get excited to engage in action and raise that risk tolerance

and being excited to say that we have a bigger enemy and I want to be building with my fellow

student to target that enemy is really exciting to be able to witness as someone that is engaging

with students one-on-one and also just talking to students and then also outside of the heartwarmingness

of being able to see the way students take the trainings that we give and the mentorship that

we give into action. Also, there's that personal connection. I think the beauty of Changecourse

also is that one-to-one relationship that we have with organizers. Instead of just, we need

this one mainstream blanket campaign that can be applied in every context. We really are

engaging in a relationship with people. And again, as someone who was on the receiving

end of this, I got to know Changecourse team members one-on-one. And now I'm working with

them, which is beautiful. But I got to know people one-on-one so that if something was

happening, that I couldn't engage in the way I wanted to in a campaign, there were material

supports for me or for group members, or if our group was just burnt out and was unable

to do a particular thing, there were people would ask, okay, so what do you need? And how

can we do, how can we within our scope and with what we have support you in what you need?

And I think that is not often the like sexy work, the things that might get headlines,

the flashy work, but I think it's the necessary work. because it really still instills values

of care, of community, of relationship, and really like struggling with each other. Knowing

that people, students as a whole don't have one ideological frame. Like sometimes we blanket

youth or young people and students under like this one ideological frame, not understanding

the difference in class, in race, immigration status, in the various things that students

individually are facing. And so being able to train students to be able to speak to each

other allows for people to be able to struggle with each other and that struggle through conflict

or understanding how do we actually navigate conflict. We still don't have an answer to

that, but we're struggling to find that answer with each other because we're both invested

in each other and also in the wider movement. I'm just feeling so nostalgic right now because

I think for a moment I forgot what it felt like to organize on campus. I was a mature student,

so I was probably like 15 years older than most of my colleagues, my comrades on campus, and

I got involved with Amnesty International because, you know, that was my ideal of human rights.

And I won't share all of that experience because it's not relative to your story, except for

that. Being older, I was already in the workforce, going up against power. That's why I left,

you know, to go take political science. So I could be an anti-capitalist with skills. You

know, I thought I would learn it in the classroom and I learned some skills in the classroom,

but the bulk of the tools that I still use today were learned organizing with my fellow students

and going up against university admin and building coalitions around divestment. It was weapons

divestment, it was a BDS movement, but my biggest thing that I cherish from that time is watching

freshmen, first year students come in and how they transformed after four years of organizing.

They were fearless by the end of it. They understood there was no sense in making friends with the

top dogs. You know, they had to learn some really hard lessons. We all learn them side by side,

but the growth that happens at that stage and kind of when you understand the levers of power,

right, they weren't all political science students. A lot of them are art students or English students

or history students. And so learning the praxis of power there was it was better done in a

group, right? Because it can be disheartening. I'm going back. I don't know if we were recording

when Evelyn told the story of Yes, it was part of your introduction on U of T. And that had

been our experience at York, where everyone, everyone was behind it. Every petition had

been signed, every student group had been on board, every union had passed it, the board

of governors had created a committee. And we checked every box we were supposed to check.

We won every meeting, every election that needed to be done. And in the end, the head of the

university just... dismantled the group that was in charge of the investments or would have

been the divestment and all of that work seemingly in that moment felt like for nothing until

I remind myself or Celine reminded me of like all the growth that we had and all of the awakening

that had happened despite the fact that they never did actually divest from weapons manufacturers.

But the seeds that were planted that I never even see I don't know what those flowers look

like right now, but I bet you they are fierce as fuck, right? Like some of them I know, I've

kept in touch with them and I know I learned so much. So like to think that folks are replicating

this like over and over again and coalitions are being built ahead of time is just, I hope

this warms the heart of all, especially the old timers listening right now where everyone's

feeling like it sucks right now, right? Like everyone is not great. Um. And there's so many

struggles going on, but I think reminding ourselves of the work that's being done with youth here

has got to be uplifting for folks. Can we talk, though, kind of shift a little bit to the resistance

you're facing on campus? So now we know students are on board. We know what you're trying to

do, but. surely there's resistance from administrators to divest or to even cede power to students,

right? That is half the battle. Even if they agree themselves, they should be divesting

from this, that, and the other thing. They surely can't let students win. That would set a precedent

they don't want. So what is that resistance looking like and has it shifted over the last

year? Because we're talking about climate justice here, but we do talk a lot about Palestine

on the show and- campus groups have been extremely active in that regard. And the response has

not, from administrators, has been violent. So you're now encouraging people to take risks,

right? Learning how to take risks. What is that coming with though? I think what you flagged

before was like, yeah, this experience of like, you build all this power, you go to who the

decision maker is and they say no. And where that comes from is this, like how universities

are increasingly. corporatized, they're increasingly in the pockets of corporate elites and are

really pandering to their donors and to their board members and to the folks who they talk

to at dinner parties. And so I think this comes back to the power mapping question. We really

work hard with students to think through this is the reality, these are the people they care

about, and so how do we influence those people? How do we think through who are your allies

on campus who have some influence over that, that you're able to move? to then put pressure

on those people. And so I think like, in terms of the resistance that we're seeing, I think

there's like two things happening. I think, so through our banks work, a lot of it has

meant we've been working with students to engage with their student unions. And part of that

comes from a place of like, student unions are historically bodies, like organizing bodies,

and they have the potential to like leverage a lot of power on campus. But I think through

the years, a lot of that has been sort of diminished and a little bit things that become a little

bit more apolitical, a little bit more bureaucratic. And so trying to put pressure on students to

reengage with these structures and kind of rebuild these structures in a way that can act as political

structures and that can be used to wield power on campus has been one of our key strategies.

Make student unions again. Exactly. Yes. Yeah. I think I've been reading and I feel like I

say this a lot. So Celine and Levi are probably tired of hearing about this, but just like

this, the history of of campuses existed as, and this was like, you know, in the context

of like Britain in like the 1700s and like very problematic and elitist, but it was a group

of students who got together and decided like as a base, as a united collective base, they

could make certain demands. So they could demand like lower rent in their communities or like

student discounts on things. And if they didn't get what they want, they had the power to like

up and leave that community and sort of exert an economic power over that community. and

kind of existed as student unions at that time. And so kind of thinking through like, as universities

have kind of developed this campus structure and really localized in on certain areas that

are not movable, some of that power has shifted really into the hands of administrators and

into these like corporate donors and the people that they're sort of in the pocket of. And

so working to kind of like re-indigrize some of that campus space building has been really,

I think, important to our work. And then when you're talking about resistance, I imagine

you're asking some about police. some of the police pushback, I would say. I'm always curious

what they're up to. Yeah, I think Levi, did you want to speak to this? Levi wants to speak.

Yeah, I definitely. The nodding that there are over there. I do. Levi's excited. I'm a chronic

nodder. Like, you can tell when I'm into something. I'm just like my head's bobbing up and down

like a bobblehead. The listeners won't be able to see that, but I want you to picture my head

bobbing up and down like a bobblehead during this conversation. Yeah, I think to your. point,

Jessa, around like, how have we seen the repression and like response on campus shift since the

encampments for Palestine this summer? Like, this campaign has always faced like a certain

amount of like police response to what we do targeting a corporation. Of course, RBC is

in the pocket of like, you know, or RCMP and police are in the pocket of these big corporations.

Of course, there's always gonna be a level of these folks are working together, but I think

definitely this fall, we've seen an increase in both university response to student protesters

more broadly, as well as escalation in police response to our campaign as well. So more broadly

speaking, we're seeing universities like Western attempt to quietly pass policies that suppress

students' rights to freedom of expression and freedom of assembly on campus. We're seeing

universities more and more willing to call in the police and RCMP to remove students from

campus by force. This started with the encampments this summer. We've seen this happen at some

of the campuses like York, like University of Alberta. Students are actively being. heavily

surveilled and followed on campus simply for like handing out flyers or having silent study-ins,

right? Which is a pretty dramatic escalation. Just last week, a student group that we support

at the University of Ottawa held a two-day sit-in at the RBC branch on their campus. This is

not the first time that they've held a sit-in. It's not the first time that police were called

by RBC, but it is the first time that police responded with threats of arrest to these students

for. being on their campus and occupying the branch. So the first day students drummed and

chanted for two hours before they were forced to actually be completely silent or face arrest

by police. On their own campus, they were said, you need to be completely silent or we're going

to arrest all of you. And so the next day, the students so beautifully and creatively pivoted

to hold a silent study in. And this time they were met with an immediate. threat of arrest

by police, despite it being a completely silent protest. And I think this represents an extreme

escalation of police response on the UOttawa campus specifically, and it really shows that

University of Ottawa administration cares more about protecting corporate interest and they

care about their own students. It shows that RBC is silencing student voices and university

administration is backing them up. But I think at the same time, students are more determined

than ever to kick RBC off campus and definitely won't be backing down anytime soon. And I think

for us, that means just having these deep conversations about how risk is changing and how we shift

to support students through that. And I'll pass it to Evelyn to maybe speak more on that. Yeah,

I think just to build on that, I think what's most noticeable about this is like when we

started. We founded three years ago and really honed in on sort of this campus RBC branch

strategy about two years ago. And when we started that, a lot of it was the sort of, yeah, taking

students through the process of like a lot of engagement and building on tactics and increasing

pressure through tactics. And when the concept of sit-ins first came up amongst student groups.

It was very much like this is a low-risk action. Like universities will not arrest you on your

campus. Like they're not going to do that. If you talk to old school organizers, they're

like, yeah, we, we did sit-ins all the time. We did whatever we wanted because the university

just wanted us to graduate, be done, and not see a scandal. And I think that that's really

shifted in the last few months with the way that like through the encampments of summer,

police were just coming onto campuses and in cases like Alberta being incredibly violent,

like night one of some of these encampments. And that's just, I think, really emboldened

and pushed the line for like what is acceptable and what's not in terms of engaging with student

protesters on their own campuses. And I think in a lot of the cases, these universities have

their own bylaws that limit how law enforcement can even be on campus. And some of that is

just kind of like getting swept under the rug. And yeah, we're seeing universities really

say like, you have to tell us how you're gonna protest and where and when, and then we're

gonna tell you if that's okay, and then you can, and if you can hold the protest or not.

Like that's kind of the attitude that they're taking. Like I think Levi mentioned Western,

and I think what was really telling there was they put out this statement saying, no picketing

without approval in the middle of an active strike. And it was just, it was, it's just

like a wild attempt to really, yeah, push back on some of this. work that's happening. And

I think also what we're thinking about is like, there's likely going to be a change in government

in the next several months, and that will likely come with even more like emboldening of police

suppression of this kind of work. And so just really thinking through for ourselves, like

how do we, I think we're really trying to answer this question right now because it feels very

new after the summer of like, how do we navigate this? What does this mean? And where do we

go from here? We all are. Evelyn, like we all are just sitting here and all the rules have

gone out the window, all of them. Like we used to understand that a certain amount of public

pressure under a politician would force them to move. We used to think a certain amount

of number of people in the streets over and over again would be enough to maybe sway. Cause

I, long ago, I think many of us have given up on just presenting facts to people, right?

It's like about demonstrating our people power and Although it's disheartening, you know,

to hear that all these bylaws that were put into place to give you to secure rights as

a student are going out the window and all of these other mechanisms that we've had aren't

even working. It also allows it frees people up to not waste their time in certain avenues.

when you know there's no point in checking those boxes because the rules have changed, right?

It ups, I think, your ability to convince people to risk more. And that's scary, but Evelyn,

when you spoke of training people, okay, here, you could, because you gotta walk people in.

Some people coming into university, at least this was my experience, they would definitely

not do anything without approval. And the first thing that we could do, the most valuable thing

was to never ask for permission, you worry about asking for forgiveness, maybe. All right, like

just don't ask for permission because if you get permission, then it's what they wanted.

That's an avenue they can confine you within, right? That's why they let you in because they

know that they can, there's no door out. Go on in, no problem. That's legitimate. That

is not legitimate. And so anytime they point you away from something, you know that's actually

where you're supposed to be going. Because these are not your teammates in any sort, like not

admin, not the cops, not the government. Like they're not, they are there to thwart your

efforts. So you always have to imagine like whatever they're trying to get you to do, you

should probably be doing the opposite. And like to just get people past that barrier of seeking

approval from administrators is a mental hurdle, but it's easier to do when the administrators

are not fair. when they have so blatantly taken their mask off and says, fuck you, rules are

for you, not for me. Students are like, no, they're not. No, no, the rules are for nobody

then. So, but that like, that is a shift all these organizers everywhere are trying to make

right now. Like how do we go forward? Because the rules have changed. As an accelerationist

sometimes, I feel like that I am that I have been accused of that and I will own that to

a degree. There's a bit of relief though that people are seeing the mask off. I hope not

every university has to go through the experience of the University of Alberta or McGill to see

what's in store for you. Like we can look to South Korea trying to declare martial law and

everyone was like, no the fuck you're not. Like that has got to be your response. Like, no,

nope, not an inch. Because you know, if Western gets inches and U of T has done similar bylaw

changes on where and when, you know, from the encampment, people can congregate and all these

new rules, they're all watching each other too, right? Like you guys watch each other, but

you still have to build capacity. You can't just be like, oh, well, they did it at McGill,

so we're gonna do it. Like you've got to get to that point. But administrators don't. They're

gonna be like, oh, Western called the cops? And there was like no backlash then I'm gonna

call the cops right like if that's just if that's what we do now Then that's what we do right

unless there's such blowback That that is not worth it right and I imagine that's where we're

all looking now right to push back against Not just climate change, but the fascism that we're

facing You have any advice for other student organizers on how I know you're just trying

to explore it, but like maybe if anybody's got advice or you want to comment on the fact that,

you know, fascism is now one of our biggest barriers to a free Palestine, to climate justice,

to free education, to African liberation. It's, it's, um, it's a tightening, tightening rope

there. We are definitely seeing, and I had this conversation maybe with Levi and our other

team member, um, Chloe about like, are we closer to winning? Um, do we think that we're closer

to winning? And I, that's twofold. I think that we are, I feel that we are closer to winning

because of empires response or the state's response to the things that we do. Like we see them

tightening the noose around society. We see them like increasingly militarizing police

forces, invading student spaces. There's this, definitely this heightened response the little

things, quote unquote, that we do. So there's definitely, I think you can see it in a way

that this heightened response is a response to the fact that people are gaining power collectively

and gaining consciousness. People are seeing who the real enemy is. And I think for students

in particular, personally what's given me and some things that I've shared to students one-on-one

is that this fight is not a singular fight that. because we are building coalitions of people,

because we are collectively doing something together on campuses, not just our own campuses,

but campuses across Turtle Island, across the globe, there is an inspiration in the fact

that we aren't alone and also understanding our unique position in so-called Canada, understanding

the role that students at universities and young people. across the settler colony have and

the responsibility we have to each other and then also the responsibility that we have across

colonial borders is necessary because then we also relieve ourselves of the pressure of feeling

like the weight of the world is on our shoulders that leads to burnout that leads to lots of

many like internal rifts within organizing spaces that we feel that we have the weight on our

shoulder. But understanding that we exist in a legacy, in a long lineage of people that

have been, Evelyn shared sort of the history of the fossil fuel divestment movement, that

the history of the fossil fuel divestment movement exists in a longer history of resistance to

colonialism, a longer history of resistance to state violence. Like we exist in a lineage

of people that have fought and have won. Like the world ending scenarios that we experience

now are not new to many communities, to many people. But there's always been resistance

to that. And I think sharing that with students and giving them that, knowing that we can win

what we need to win, because history proves that we are able to win. And then also living

in like the belly of the beast per se, our responsibility is to ensure that we are doing what needs to

be done to reduce the harm that's being inflicted abroad. So for example, sometimes we're like,

I personally need to stop the weapons industry. or I personally need to stop this genocide

or this war. Like there are people on the ground, there's resistance on the ground that's doing

that. Our responsibility here is to ensure that arms are not being sent. Our responsibility

is to ensure that the financial institutions are not investing money into or financing these

destructive industries. Our responsibility here is to ensure that we are doing everything we

possibly can together to ensure that no more harm is being inflicted. And that to me, it

leaves some of that pressure of feeling the world on your shoulder and the leaves some

of the pressure of this needs to be done right now in this timeline because XYZ and that like

feeds into urgency culture, feeds into white supremacy, feeds into capitalism. Yeah, I'm

getting a little off like sidetracked because I like truly, truly am sort of a nerd for like

movement history and knowing that there will be people before us. that have done this, thinking

about Fanon and his quote on like, each generation must out of relative obscurity fulfill or betray

its mission is something that I use as a guiding light, because this is our mission for our

lifetime in this moment. And we need to, wherever we are along the fight, whoever we are with,

building together, because we know that scares them. We seeing that happen, we seeing the

arrest of. pro-Palestinian organizers, we're seeing the increased surveillance, we're seeing

universities being scared shitless and trying to sue its students or taking its students

to court. A university that you pay funds to is taking you to court. That's absolute, trying

to comprehend that is actually, no words. But we're seeing the response to what we're doing

and to me that means it's working. And to me that means we just need to be doing more, educating

ourselves. political education is important, understanding, like, and being anti imperialist

is important, understanding how capital flows, understanding capitalism, understanding how

racial hierarchies are used to gain profit, how racial hierarchies are used to sustain

the system as it is that division, what you mentioned in class consciousness, those are

sort of things that I think students are increasingly being aware of. And in the last year, sadly,

has resulted The last year of genocide, last year in two months of genocide, has created

an opportunity for an accelerated consciousness building, and the masks have fallen off. And

there's just the damage, the brand damage, to these corporations, to these universities,

to these people in power has completely fallen off. And what is left for us to do now is to

pick up that mantle and to be building together. Celine, that was pure fire. When you hear that

back. You were gonna know that it's pure fire and that every student out there needs to hear

that last Well, I marked it when you started talking Five minutes about five minutes. I

was like, oh, I'm gonna grab that I'm gonna make it the intro, but it's a little longer

than that, but I will make sure I repurpose that clip because I Feel better I get to that

place, you know that urgency culture that you're talking about and feeling the weight, even

though I talk to hundreds of people that are doing the work, right? And they're all part

of organizations and coalitions that are doing the work. But you said a lot with that five

minutes, Celine, honestly. Especially the legacy comment. Revolutions are built on the revolutions

before them. And I don't think I've ever viewed the fight for climate justice as that same

mode of resistance. I should have, I could have, but I didn't see it that way. And it's much

more hopeful when it's framed in that way, especially if you have learned of previous struggles and

victories. So we try to share as many victories as we can on the show because I do understand

that value. And I'm glad Celine reminded me of that legacy and that lineage that we have

a duty to and one to create. right, an onus to leave a good one. By the way, I just love

that I logged onto your website and many of you are wearing a keffiyeh in your bio. That's

like a small choice to take a new headshot and put it up, but it meant everything to see that

honestly, because I think you know that. I think that's why you did it. I very, very much appreciate

you taking the time to come on the show, but like I tell most of my guests, I more appreciate

the work that you're doing every single day. Every single seed that you plant, whether it

takes or not, is valuable, and you are definitely doing. the good fight. Please keep it up and

please keep us updated on your work. Yeah, it was a great way to start the day. I'm so happy

now. I'm so energized and hopeful for the work that we're doing. So thanks for having us,

Jessa. Thank you. I think you folks have that effect on people because I am feeling really

good. Celine is smiling ear to ear as well. So yes, we will take that as a win and I'm

sure the audience enjoyed themselves as well. That is a wrap on another episode of Blueprints

of Disruption. Thank you for joining us. If you'd like to help us continue disrupting the

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