It's this whole thing of leadership and, and the delicate balance of
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there
are decisions that need to be made,
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and yet the leader is a servant.
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So how does that all
how does that all work?
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And and how do you step out and, and say,
this is where we're headed.
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This is what we're going to do.
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And at the same time
be a servant to the group.
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Merle Burkholder,
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welcome back to the Anabaptist
Perspectives podcast.
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It's,
it's really good to have you on again.
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We've done a number of episodes
with you over the years, and
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this is a topic which I, to my knowledge,
we've never touched on on this podcast,
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or at least not directly.
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And that's the topic of leadership,
which is a obviously a very large topic.
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And we won't cover,
nearly everything we could.
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But there are some high points, to hit
that you have developed over, over the
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years, you served in ministry for many,
many years, often in leadership positions.
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You've been in church leadership.
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you are one of the mentors, I guess
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you call it, or instructors at the Servant
Institute with Faith builders.
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Been doing that since it started
six years, six, seven years ago.
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so, yeah, I feel like this is formed
not just out of you sat in a classroom
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and learned this.
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You know,
you've had quite a bit of experience
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with these things,
and I'm really looking forward
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to what you have to share on this episode
on this really important topic.
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on leadership.
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So with that introduction, I say we
just, jump in.
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Where would you like to start, on this?
This is a big topic.
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So where would you like to begin?
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It is. And leadership is basically influence.
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So it's, influencing people to do,
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what's right and to work
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together to accomplish important things.
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And a group of people
can accomplish things that
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people individually couldn't do.
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And so then when you have a group
of people you need, you need leadership.
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And someone serves the group
by being the leader.
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And it's not like
sometimes we think of leadership as well.
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We all have to do what they say,
and they just get to do what they want to
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do, and the rest of us have to follow,
and that's not it at all.
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The leader actually puts more energy in than anybody else and is serving the group.
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And sometimes leaders say, well,
I wish I would be out there actually
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doing the, the work or the activities,
but there's so much work
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and organizational things and stuff
that, that I'm not able to do.
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Some of the things that I see people doing
that I'd love to be involved in.
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But by that leader
being willing to serve the group
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by doing the organizational things
and, and, taking care of all
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the things that need to be taken care of
for a group to function effectively,
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they make a lot more happen than if
they were just kind of out by themselves,
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doing the thing
that they have a passion for.
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And so leadership
is really an act of service,
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and it takes a servant's
heart to really be an effective leader.
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And leadership
effectiveness is based on two things.
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It's based on character
and it's based on competence.
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And so people will follow somebody,
they will engage with somebody
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that they know has integrity,
that they know they can trust,
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and somebody
that has a track record of competence
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that when they're organizing something,
it happens.
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They can actually complete it and get it
done.
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There are visionary people
that don't have the ability
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to actually carry something out.
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They have lots of great ideas, but
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not the ability to actually make it work.
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And so
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and then there are people
that have the ability to do things,
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but their character,
they have character flaws
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that detract from their effectiveness.
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So it's that combination of character
and competence that creates trust,
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which then gives you influence,
gives a leader influence with the people.
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But that doesn't come quickly.
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It doesn't come by accident.
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It's part of just stages
of of development.
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And I'd like to just talk about
some of those stages of a leader
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developing through, the stages of life
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to mature leadership, development.
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And the first one
is Sovereign Foundations.
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And they're the things that God chooses
for us, that we don't choose ourselves
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like God chooses the era into which
we're born.
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He chose the century,
the decade of our birth.
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he chose a family we're born into.
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He chose a spiritual environment,
the religious environment we're born into.
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He chose our ethnicity.
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He he gave us, he he forms
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our personality
and gives us some natural inclinations and
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and skills that, or interests
at least that that we develop
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and so God puts those things together
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and brings us onto the stage of history
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at just the moment
when he that he's prepared us for.
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and we don't choose those things,
we're there.
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We didn't have anything to do with it.
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but they're part of our identity
and part of of who we are.
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And you think about somebody like Moses,
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you know,
he was born into a Hebrew family.
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but probably at the
one of the worst times to be born
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a Hebrew man, a Hebrew male child.
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And when all the babies, male babies
were supposed to be killed.
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And so if you would have been a neighbor
to Amram and Jochebed,
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and you would have come home
from your brick making job, and,
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your spouse would have told you
that Amram and Jochebed had a baby.
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Your first question probably would have
been, is it a boy or a girl?
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And when you found out it was a boy,
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you would have thought his life
expectancy was pretty short.
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But God preserved his life.
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But he had that.
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So he was the only Hebrew man his age.
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We don't know how long that went on,
but there wasn't any other male
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Hebrew men
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that were had birthdays anywhere
close to to Moses.
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And he was with his parents long enough
that he was able to form a faith in God
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and a, a Jewish worldview.
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And he was able to he went the language
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and the belief in God and he.
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And then he goes to the palace.
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Now he's trained
in all the wisdom of the Egyptians,
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and he learns the Egyptian language,
and he's in the palace
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and he learns to know
all the people in government
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and how the system works
and how do you get things done. And.
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then he tries to rescue the Jewish people
and then winds up in the wilderness,
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and now he's in his third culture
and third language, and
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and there he is being a shepherd.
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And I just think there were some days
when Moses was out there
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tending sheep where he thinks, you know,
I have no clue what my life is about.
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Like, this is crazy.
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Like none of these pieces.
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I mean, they're all intriguing pieces, but
they don't make any sense put together.
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And then one day,
God shows up in the burning
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bush and says, hey,
I've seen the affliction of the people.
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I've heard their cry,
and I've come down to deliver them.
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And Moses, just like, great idea.
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I thought that should have been done
20 years ago and or 40 years ago.
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And, and, so I'm glad you're here.
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And then God says, so I'm sending you.
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And suddenly the picture changes,
and and Moses asks the question,
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who am I that I should go
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and deliver the people, out of Egypt?
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And you would think that God would turn to
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Moses and say, well,
what do you think this is about?
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Like you're the only Hebrew man your age.
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You know, all the people in the palace,
you know, the royal family.
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You know how the government works.
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you have wilderness experience.
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Like, what else do you need?
Who else would I ask?
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But it's kind of like God
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just sort of ignores all that and says,
oh, yeah, well, I'll be with you.
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And so we have these foundations,
and God prepares us and,
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and at
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the events of our lives
are not without purpose,
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like God brings us on a journey
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with pieces
that maybe we don't understand,
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but it's going somewhere
and there's a purpose to it.
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And so we look.
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Sometimes we look at our
spiritual foundations and we look at our,
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our sovereign foundations,
the things that God chose for us.
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And we're like, why like and we want to
reject it and, and or be frustrated by it.
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But but God chose those things for us
and and and so we
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we and during that time we can have
bitterness over hurts and losses and,
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and we can kind of
have maybe, a lack of confidence
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or we can feel intimidated because
of our family or our church or whatever.
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And, or it could be arrogance and
and pride and, and
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and those things can hinder where, where
God wants to, to take us.
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But then
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often there's an event that comes
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that is a moment where we realize
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what God is doing in the world
and we want to be part of it.
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And we're like,
I want to make a difference in the world.
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I want to be involved
in the kingdom of God.
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I want to see that kingdom
grow and advance, and
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there are just problems in the world
that somebody needs to do something about,
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and I can do something.
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And so I'm going to
I'm going to get involved
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and I'm going to do stuff for God.
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but then we realize, but I'm not ready.
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I need knowledge,
I need skills, there's things I have to
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to develop.
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And at that point,
we move into the second stage of,
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where we're just developing our
own inner life and growth.
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So you've
talked about the sovereign foundations.
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Those are the things that God chose
for us.
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So we got through that transit, through
that section using Moses as an example.
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So you're saying stage two what's,
what's your second stage then.
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Yeah.
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Stage two is inner life growth
where we we begin to develop the knowledge
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base, the skills,
that we need in order to,
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follow the calling
that God brings into our life.
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It might be academic training,
it might be apprenticeship.
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It it might just be finding a mentor
model,
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role model that we look at
and say, there's somebody who's doing
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something that I'd like to do
and how can I learn that? And,
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and so we may experiment with different
things and say, well, I'd like to,
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I'd like
to teach English as a second language.
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I'd like to do medical work.
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I'd, whatever it is.
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And, and we, we begin to look at, okay,
what do I need to learn
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and how do I get into that?
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And what's what's the path
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for me to take that role in,
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in what God's doing?
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And then during this stage, God begins
to mold
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our character through
meaningful relationships with people.
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And we
we develop a relationship with people
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that can give us knowledge,
give us wisdom.
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And then God also starts
checking our character.
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And, you think about Joseph and Daniel,
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both men that God check like
there was an integrity check there.
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And and
and they pass it, like Joseph chose
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God over, over
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Potiphar's wife
and his relationship with her.
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And he he just said,
I can't do this thing against God.
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And so God checked his his,
his integrity, his character.
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And Daniel went to Babylon and,
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but chose to be true to who he was
and and ask for a different diet and,
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and and God gave him that,
that integrity check.
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so it's kind of checking.
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Do we live by our convictions or do we,
do we compromise?
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And do we find a way of kind of
justifying.
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Well, you know, I'm
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in a different situation here, and I can
I need to do something different.
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and so then there's also,
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God takes us through checks of, Of,
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obedience.
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Like, do we, do we follow God's voice
like if he prompts us to do something?
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Will I do it?
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And, you know,
there's those things where you just feel,
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God wants me to talk to that person
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and you're like, no, I don't even know
them, like, why would I talk to them?
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And and but then if we do,
then we find out, oh, there was
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it leads to an encounter
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that God had designed for us
and an opportunity that he gave us.
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And then if we are faithful and do that,
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then God gives us increasingly important
opportunities
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because he knows if he prompts us to do
something, we're actually going to do it.
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We're actually going
to we're actually going to act on it.
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And he checks our willingness to obey
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the, the spirit.
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00:13:10,831 --> 00:13:14,585
And, and then there's the whole matter of
237
00:13:15,252 --> 00:13:18,839
of forgiveness
and think about Joseph again
238
00:13:18,839 --> 00:13:24,220
and his brothers like the way they
treated him and, and, and,
239
00:13:25,304 --> 00:13:28,015
but his ability to forgive them and say,
you meant it for evil,
240
00:13:28,015 --> 00:13:33,103
but God meant it for good
and and to be able to forgive the wrongs,
241
00:13:34,688 --> 00:13:38,317
against us, and also to recognize
that I need people's forgiveness.
242
00:13:38,317 --> 00:13:42,196
And and I do things that are hurtful
to other people.
243
00:13:42,196 --> 00:13:46,617
And I need to be willing to confess
when I'm wrong and ask for forgiveness.
244
00:13:46,617 --> 00:13:50,079
And it becomes, a two way street,
245
00:13:50,079 --> 00:13:54,667
because relationships don't work
unless there's forgiveness,
246
00:13:54,667 --> 00:13:58,963
unless there's grace and the closer
the relationship,
247
00:13:59,296 --> 00:14:03,717
the more there's a need for forgiveness
and and grace.
248
00:14:03,717 --> 00:14:07,847
And we kind of have a natural tendency
to want mercy
249
00:14:07,847 --> 00:14:11,559
and forgiveness for ourselves,
but justice for everybody else.
250
00:14:11,559 --> 00:14:13,310
So you think about it.
251
00:14:13,310 --> 00:14:16,313
If you're going down the highway
and the speed limit is 55
252
00:14:16,772 --> 00:14:20,776
and somebody passes
you doing about 70 or 75, and two miles
253
00:14:20,776 --> 00:14:24,655
down the road, you see them pulled over
with the lights flashing behind them.
254
00:14:24,655 --> 00:14:27,616
You're like, yes, nail
that guy like he deserves it.
255
00:14:27,616 --> 00:14:31,787
And but then if you're the person
who's in a hurry and you're passing
256
00:14:31,996 --> 00:14:35,583
somebody doing 70 and you get pulled over,
you're thinking, oh,
257
00:14:35,583 --> 00:14:39,670
please don't give me a ticket,
just a warning or nothing, you know? And
258
00:14:40,754 --> 00:14:43,382
but in in relationships, we
259
00:14:43,382 --> 00:14:47,845
need to be able to have grace and mercy
and forgiveness go both ways.
260
00:14:48,512 --> 00:14:51,515
because we we all need it.
261
00:14:51,891 --> 00:14:54,852
And then there's word checks where,
262
00:14:56,103 --> 00:14:58,731
God checks to see
263
00:14:58,731 --> 00:15:00,274
if we read something in Scripture.
264
00:15:00,274 --> 00:15:03,277
Are we going to do it or not?
265
00:15:03,319 --> 00:15:08,616
And are we obedient to what we read
in, in the word.
266
00:15:08,866 --> 00:15:12,620
And then the there's ministry checks were
267
00:15:14,371 --> 00:15:17,791
coming in like,
we all kind of come into this stage of
268
00:15:17,791 --> 00:15:20,794
we want to do the big things like, and,
269
00:15:21,170 --> 00:15:24,340
and you know, we're going to I'm
going to be the next
270
00:15:25,007 --> 00:15:28,218
whoever, and I'm just going to, you know,
I want to change the world,
271
00:15:28,218 --> 00:15:31,221
and I'm going to do all these
amazing things. And
272
00:15:32,056 --> 00:15:33,349
and then.
273
00:15:33,349 --> 00:15:37,394
Somebody needs to mop the floor,
or somebody needs to change the
274
00:15:37,394 --> 00:15:39,188
oil in the vehicle. And, and
275
00:15:40,230 --> 00:15:42,733
and it's
our willingness to do those little things,
276
00:15:42,733 --> 00:15:48,530
those things that seem insignificant,
but make the whole thing work, that, God
277
00:15:48,530 --> 00:15:52,409
checks to see if, if we're willing to do
the the small stuff.
278
00:15:52,534 --> 00:15:56,538
And I remember a staff person
that came on staff,
279
00:15:56,914 --> 00:16:01,251
with northern youth
and, a young single man.
280
00:16:01,251 --> 00:16:05,798
And when he was coming, his dad told me
there's one thing I want my son to learn.
281
00:16:06,256 --> 00:16:11,136
I want him to learn that missionaries need
to wash their car and cut their grass.
282
00:16:11,762 --> 00:16:12,846
And because he was saying
283
00:16:12,846 --> 00:16:16,809
he has this image of missionaries
doing all these amazing things, but.
284
00:16:17,226 --> 00:16:18,852
but you guys have lives to live.
285
00:16:18,852 --> 00:16:24,483
And and there's a lot of everyday ordinary
things that need to be done.
286
00:16:24,483 --> 00:16:28,070
And I think God checks
if we're willing to, to do those.
287
00:16:28,821 --> 00:16:30,489
And the challenges can be
288
00:16:31,907 --> 00:16:32,866
at this stage, it's just a
289
00:16:32,866 --> 00:16:36,328
lack of role models or a lack of of,
290
00:16:36,829 --> 00:16:41,458
mentors and,
maybe an unwillingness to be a, a learner.
291
00:16:41,875 --> 00:16:46,964
And, and then our character flaws
start to become obvious.
292
00:16:47,131 --> 00:16:51,218
And there's things that we need to,
to correct and, and lessons
293
00:16:51,218 --> 00:16:55,305
that we need to learn
just in forming our, our character.
294
00:16:55,848 --> 00:16:59,810
So we're talking about
the sovereign foundations
295
00:16:59,810 --> 00:17:01,353
and then the inner life growth.
296
00:17:01,353 --> 00:17:03,022
So those two stages.
297
00:17:03,022 --> 00:17:06,025
So let's say
we've gotten through that part.
298
00:17:06,233 --> 00:17:08,610
What's the next stage. What’s stage three?
299
00:17:08,610 --> 00:17:10,946
Yeah. Stage
three is the ministry maturing.
300
00:17:10,946 --> 00:17:14,992
And where a person gets into ministry,
there's entry in the ministry.
301
00:17:14,992 --> 00:17:18,579
And and maybe even into leadership.
302
00:17:18,579 --> 00:17:21,957
And you begin to, to get engaged in,
303
00:17:22,374 --> 00:17:26,045
in, in leadership
and there's, there's leadership skills,
304
00:17:26,045 --> 00:17:30,007
there's leadership, training,
and there's a discovery of gifts.
305
00:17:30,007 --> 00:17:31,341
What do I do well?
306
00:17:31,341 --> 00:17:35,220
And where what's my what's my sweet spot
307
00:17:35,220 --> 00:17:38,974
as far as as responsibilities
and where do I function?
308
00:17:39,683 --> 00:17:41,435
Where do I function the best?
309
00:17:41,435 --> 00:17:46,815
and just that discovery of,
of, of leadership skills and abilities.
310
00:17:46,815 --> 00:17:53,280
And we begin to get involved
in, in leadership and influence
311
00:17:53,280 --> 00:17:56,283
with, with people and,
312
00:17:56,450 --> 00:17:59,286
and begin to build, build skills.
313
00:17:59,286 --> 00:18:01,705
But then there's relational learning.
314
00:18:01,705 --> 00:18:06,376
Understanding authority.
315
00:18:06,376 --> 00:18:07,628
And, and and it's this whole thing of leadership and, and the delicate balance of
316
00:18:07,628 --> 00:18:12,341
And, and and it's this whole thing of leadership and, and the delicate balance of
317
00:18:13,300 --> 00:18:16,345
yes, there
are decisions that need to be made,
318
00:18:17,471 --> 00:18:19,098
and yet the leader is a servant.
319
00:18:19,098 --> 00:18:22,101
So how does that all
how does that all work?
320
00:18:22,392 --> 00:18:27,106
And and how do you step out and, and say,
this is where we're headed.
321
00:18:27,106 --> 00:18:28,232
This is what we're going to do.
322
00:18:28,232 --> 00:18:31,693
And at the same time
be a servant to the group.
323
00:18:31,693 --> 00:18:32,820
And so learning about authority
and learning about,
324
00:18:32,820 --> 00:18:36,323
And so learning about authority
and learning about,
325
00:18:36,698 --> 00:18:39,993
how to, how to actually do leadership
326
00:18:39,993 --> 00:18:42,996
and how to actually,
327
00:18:43,497 --> 00:18:44,581
group dynamics
328
00:18:44,581 --> 00:18:47,584
and how that how does that work?
329
00:18:48,210 --> 00:18:51,171
and there's different styles
of leadership.
330
00:18:51,171 --> 00:18:55,509
And a good leader is able to provide
the style that's needed at the moment.
331
00:18:55,509 --> 00:18:58,637
Like there are moments
when a leader just needs to say,
332
00:18:58,637 --> 00:19:01,765
this is what we need to do,
and this is, this is and there's moments
333
00:19:01,765 --> 00:19:04,017
where a leader needs to say,
what do you all think?
334
00:19:04,017 --> 00:19:09,231
And and can we,
arrive at a, at a consensus
335
00:19:10,440 --> 00:19:11,024
here?
336
00:19:11,024 --> 00:19:16,655
And, and so we get insights
on, on relationships and how do the,
337
00:19:16,822 --> 00:19:20,868
how does
how do the leadership relationships work?
338
00:19:21,201 --> 00:19:25,956
but along with that,
then there's, there's conflicts
339
00:19:25,956 --> 00:19:30,878
and dealing with conflicts,
dealing with when people don't agree
340
00:19:31,128 --> 00:19:34,131
and when there's different ideas
341
00:19:34,214 --> 00:19:37,342
and sometimes there's very strong
feelings.
342
00:19:37,342 --> 00:19:40,804
And a leader needs to be able to negotiate
343
00:19:40,804 --> 00:19:43,849
those conversations and help people
to be able to talk to each other
344
00:19:43,849 --> 00:19:47,769
and be able to work toward a consensus
and toward arriving at a,
345
00:19:48,228 --> 00:19:50,981
at a decision.
346
00:19:50,981 --> 00:19:53,984
and, and that's challenging to,
347
00:19:54,109 --> 00:19:57,112
to deal with, with conflicts and,
348
00:19:57,779 --> 00:20:00,699
sometimes those conflicts are actually,
349
00:20:00,699 --> 00:20:03,702
the animosity is directed
toward the leader.
350
00:20:04,536 --> 00:20:06,622
And it's like the backlash of,
351
00:20:06,622 --> 00:20:10,876
well, you did this and, and,
and that was hurtful.
352
00:20:10,876 --> 00:20:14,713
And, and the challenging thing
is that sometimes
353
00:20:14,713 --> 00:20:17,674
there are decisions that need to be made.
354
00:20:17,674 --> 00:20:21,970
And because of all the dynamics
of the decision,
355
00:20:22,721 --> 00:20:27,309
it's not appropriate to tell everybody
all the all the things
356
00:20:27,309 --> 00:20:31,355
that are going into making the decision
because some of it is confidential.
357
00:20:33,190 --> 00:20:36,401
So you're making a decision
358
00:20:36,860 --> 00:20:40,530
that affects everybody, but everybody
doesn't have all the information.
359
00:20:40,530 --> 00:20:43,533
They don't know what
you know. As a leader.
360
00:20:43,784 --> 00:20:47,955
And sometimes you're even in a situation
where a decision has to be made
361
00:20:48,914 --> 00:20:52,834
and it's going to be good for some people
and not good for other people,
362
00:20:53,835 --> 00:20:57,673
and you don't have a choice
that's going to be good for everybody.
363
00:20:57,673 --> 00:21:00,676
You don't have a choice
where everybody is going to be happy,
364
00:21:00,717 --> 00:21:05,305
and those are really hard
decisions to make.
365
00:21:06,848 --> 00:21:09,935
but and so sometimes at this point,
366
00:21:10,477 --> 00:21:15,107
leaders, people who are in leadership
will drop out and say, I'm done.
367
00:21:15,274 --> 00:21:18,277
it's too difficult.
368
00:21:18,485 --> 00:21:22,531
I can't handle the the backlash I don't
like I can't deal with the conflicts.
369
00:21:22,531 --> 00:21:24,283
And somebody else can do this.
370
00:21:24,283 --> 00:21:27,661
I I'm not going to I'm not going to do it.
371
00:21:27,911 --> 00:21:32,833
and they drop out
because of of the conflicts
372
00:21:32,833 --> 00:21:36,962
or the backlash against their,
their leadership.
373
00:21:37,296 --> 00:21:41,633
so, And maybe that's
a common misunderstanding
374
00:21:41,633 --> 00:21:45,721
with leadership,
where it's not like a drill sergeant.
375
00:21:45,721 --> 00:21:46,513
I'm going to tell you what to do,
376
00:21:46,513 --> 00:21:48,724
and you just need to do it because I'm
the leader.
377
00:21:48,724 --> 00:21:50,183
Leadership is so relational,
378
00:21:51,268 --> 00:21:52,769
and those relationships can,
379
00:21:52,769 --> 00:21:55,689
as you're saying, it's very,
it can be very stressful depending
380
00:21:55,689 --> 00:21:58,942
like humans are complicated
and getting a team to all work together.
381
00:21:58,942 --> 00:22:00,402
There's all kinds of different dynamics.
382
00:22:00,402 --> 00:22:03,405
And yeah, it's stressful.
383
00:22:04,364 --> 00:22:07,367
So anyways continuing on there though
with,
384
00:22:07,659 --> 00:22:09,286
with so we're still in stage three.
385
00:22:09,286 --> 00:22:12,080
maturing into ministry.
386
00:22:12,080 --> 00:22:13,915
yeah.
387
00:22:13,915 --> 00:22:16,168
Is there more there on that?
388
00:22:16,168 --> 00:22:16,793
Yeah.
389
00:22:16,793 --> 00:22:22,549
Basically what God's doing at that stage
is he's, taking us from doing leadership
390
00:22:22,549 --> 00:22:27,596
to actually being a leader and where
we're like, we develop leadership skills
391
00:22:27,596 --> 00:22:31,350
and we're we're working
at, leadership skills.
392
00:22:31,350 --> 00:22:32,726
But then there actually comes a point
393
00:22:32,726 --> 00:22:36,521
where we're recognized
as you are a leader, like people.
394
00:22:36,772 --> 00:22:39,775
People follow you and you have influence.
395
00:22:40,317 --> 00:22:43,987
And it comes from those things
of character and competence
396
00:22:43,987 --> 00:22:45,572
that have been displayed.
397
00:22:45,572 --> 00:22:48,283
And you start to build a track record.
398
00:22:48,283 --> 00:22:52,537
You start to build a history and
and you actually move to being,
399
00:22:54,414 --> 00:22:55,665
a leader and moving
400
00:22:55,665 --> 00:22:59,336
toward maturity in, in leadership.
401
00:23:00,337 --> 00:23:04,466
One of the dangers is at this stage
is that you can plateau
402
00:23:05,050 --> 00:23:07,511
and you kind of can function as a leader,
403
00:23:07,511 --> 00:23:10,430
and you just sort of,
404
00:23:10,430 --> 00:23:12,391
you don’t go on to develop
405
00:23:12,391 --> 00:23:14,810
greater leadership skills.
406
00:23:14,810 --> 00:23:16,228
you just kind of you can do it.
407
00:23:16,228 --> 00:23:19,689
And it's just you sort of flatline
and just kind of go on without,
408
00:23:20,482 --> 00:23:25,153
moving to a, a greater level.
409
00:23:25,153 --> 00:23:28,240
And, when we plateau
410
00:23:28,240 --> 00:23:31,243
spiritually and we don't,
411
00:23:31,410 --> 00:23:34,287
increase our ability
412
00:23:34,287 --> 00:23:37,416
to draw from God's resources
or level of maturity,
413
00:23:38,041 --> 00:23:40,710
then you have that whole Peter principle
414
00:23:40,710 --> 00:23:43,839
where people get promoted
to their level of incompetence.
415
00:23:43,839 --> 00:23:47,968
And and that can happen
to where you're functioning
416
00:23:47,968 --> 00:23:49,886
good at this level,
and then you get promoted.
417
00:23:49,886 --> 00:23:51,138
But if you don't increase
418
00:23:52,264 --> 00:23:55,183
your maturity and your
419
00:23:55,183 --> 00:23:58,937
ability to draw resources from God and
420
00:23:59,104 --> 00:24:02,107
and develop more skills,
421
00:24:03,275 --> 00:24:05,485
then it leads to like burnout
422
00:24:05,485 --> 00:24:09,781
and overload and, and
and then you're ineffective at that level.
423
00:24:09,781 --> 00:24:14,536
And so we want to keep growing
and keep learning
424
00:24:14,870 --> 00:24:18,165
and keep drawing
from God's resources in deeper ways
425
00:24:18,165 --> 00:24:21,209
so that we get to new levels of,
426
00:24:21,543 --> 00:24:24,337
of, of leadership and,
427
00:24:24,337 --> 00:24:25,297
and effectiveness.
428
00:24:25,297 --> 00:24:29,885
And so we can, we can, limit ourselves
429
00:24:30,343 --> 00:24:33,472
by, by not growing and,
430
00:24:34,514 --> 00:24:38,894
and also at this stage, some people make
mistakes that disqualify them and they,
431
00:24:39,311 --> 00:24:43,315
they get disqualified from,
from leadership as well.
432
00:24:43,565 --> 00:24:48,320
And so you can,
you can, drop out because of conflicts.
433
00:24:48,487 --> 00:24:52,199
You can be disqualified
because of mistakes or you can plateau.
434
00:24:52,824 --> 00:24:55,827
But the alternative is to keep growing
and keep maturing
435
00:24:55,994 --> 00:25:00,081
and working toward greater
levels of influence and effectiveness.
436
00:25:02,834 --> 00:25:05,837
and that I can see that
that's one of the things with leadership
437
00:25:05,879 --> 00:25:08,715
it could be pretty easy to be like,
okay, we've arrived here,
438
00:25:08,715 --> 00:25:12,969
we're good, we’re
just kind of plateau and settle for
439
00:25:14,012 --> 00:25:16,389
wherever you know this in, in
440
00:25:16,389 --> 00:25:19,226
we're at stage three,
so settle right there.
441
00:25:19,226 --> 00:25:20,101
This is good enough.
442
00:25:20,101 --> 00:25:23,104
and you're saying, you know,
you have to be careful with that
443
00:25:23,104 --> 00:25:26,107
and continually
be calling ourselves to higher.
444
00:25:27,150 --> 00:25:29,110
what does that look like
that continue to grow?
445
00:25:29,110 --> 00:25:32,113
So what’s stage four then at that point.
446
00:25:32,322 --> 00:25:36,201
Well, stage four is where you have
had the character development
447
00:25:36,660 --> 00:25:40,288
and development of competence to the point
where people recognize
448
00:25:40,747 --> 00:25:44,376
this is a person who has
who is a leader who
449
00:25:44,918 --> 00:25:47,921
who is worth following and that the
450
00:25:47,921 --> 00:25:51,466
the level of influence really grows.
451
00:25:51,758 --> 00:25:55,470
And there's, you know, someone
said, well,
452
00:25:55,470 --> 00:25:59,558
you know, how do you be an effective,
how do you keep from making mistakes?
453
00:25:59,558 --> 00:26:01,560
Well, you learn from experience.
454
00:26:01,560 --> 00:26:02,769
What do you get to experience?
455
00:26:02,769 --> 00:26:04,688
How do you get experience,
well you make mistakes?
456
00:26:04,688 --> 00:26:07,983
And so you get to the point
where you've made enough of mistakes
457
00:26:08,275 --> 00:26:10,944
that people realize,
oh, here's a person who has experience
458
00:26:12,445 --> 00:26:15,156
and. I think you're not wrong on that.
459
00:26:15,156 --> 00:26:16,741
Yeah.
460
00:26:16,741 --> 00:26:19,744
And then when you get there to that level
461
00:26:19,744 --> 00:26:22,831
then you have a sphere of influence that
462
00:26:23,873 --> 00:26:29,921
has increased because of character
and because of competence and just,
463
00:26:30,213 --> 00:26:33,216
just the experience that you've had
and the number of things
464
00:26:34,384 --> 00:26:37,387
that you've done, like in Servant
Institute,
465
00:26:38,221 --> 00:26:43,935
as I'm 70 years old and, and
466
00:26:43,935 --> 00:26:47,939
so a lot of the men in Servant
Institute are in their 30s, 40s
467
00:26:47,939 --> 00:26:51,901
and, you know, sometimes they'll say like,
what do you do when this happens?
468
00:26:51,901 --> 00:26:54,904
I'm like, oh, yeah, that does happen.
469
00:26:54,904 --> 00:26:56,573
I remember that.
470
00:26:56,573 --> 00:27:00,118
And and I can at my age,
I can tend to forget,
471
00:27:01,328 --> 00:27:03,955
some of the experience
472
00:27:03,955 --> 00:27:06,916
that I've had,
some of the things that have happened
473
00:27:06,916 --> 00:27:10,170
over the decades of leadership,
but then talking to younger
474
00:27:10,170 --> 00:27:12,589
leaders, it's like, oh, yeah.
475
00:27:12,589 --> 00:27:15,091
I do remember that happens. And
476
00:27:16,259 --> 00:27:17,719
and so there's
477
00:27:17,719 --> 00:27:21,598
that experience then allows us to well,
478
00:27:21,598 --> 00:27:24,934
you just learn
how to how to deal with with things.
479
00:27:26,227 --> 00:27:28,104
and you know, we shouldn't be surprised
480
00:27:28,104 --> 00:27:32,984
when there are challenges
and, and conflicts.
481
00:27:33,068 --> 00:27:39,074
and I was, there was a Bible camp
that asked me to they were having
482
00:27:39,074 --> 00:27:42,452
some conflicts with their staff,
and they asked me to come and help them to
483
00:27:43,620 --> 00:27:46,164
work through some of their staff
conflicts.
484
00:27:46,164 --> 00:27:50,669
And, the director there was saying, oh,
he just
485
00:27:50,669 --> 00:27:54,047
doesn't know why people don't get along
and why things don't work.
486
00:27:54,047 --> 00:27:57,092
And, and I was telling him,
487
00:27:57,092 --> 00:28:00,095
you know,
you have to realize in leadership
488
00:28:00,470 --> 00:28:04,391
that if everybody got up every morning
489
00:28:04,808 --> 00:28:09,646
and knew what to do and how to do it,
and they all got along with each other,
490
00:28:10,355 --> 00:28:12,732
you wouldn't have a job as a leader.
491
00:28:12,732 --> 00:28:14,317
They wouldn't be anything for you to do.
492
00:28:14,317 --> 00:28:17,320
So your staff conflicts
493
00:28:17,362 --> 00:28:21,491
and the need for leadership
in your organization is your job security.
494
00:28:21,491 --> 00:28:24,536
So, so, so don't resent it.
495
00:28:24,536 --> 00:28:26,454
It's why you're there.
496
00:28:26,454 --> 00:28:28,832
And, I know when I was
497
00:28:28,832 --> 00:28:32,335
when I was just when I was just getting
started in leadership,
498
00:28:33,294 --> 00:28:34,629
there was a,
499
00:28:34,629 --> 00:28:38,800
a man that was older than I was,
that was that I was responsible to.
500
00:28:38,800 --> 00:28:41,803
And I think I was kind of complaining
about
501
00:28:42,846 --> 00:28:44,889
some staff conflicts or something.
502
00:28:44,889 --> 00:28:47,976
I was complaining about something
that a problem that I was facing and
503
00:28:48,977 --> 00:28:50,979
and he told me, Merle,
504
00:28:50,979 --> 00:28:54,441
if you're going to be successful
in leadership, you need to learn
505
00:28:54,441 --> 00:28:59,529
to eat problems for breakfast, for lunch
and for dinner and enjoy it every day.
506
00:28:59,779 --> 00:29:02,490
Because if you don't,
you're not going to make it.
507
00:29:02,490 --> 00:29:05,493
if you resent problems,
508
00:29:05,702 --> 00:29:07,704
you're
just not going to survive in leadership.
509
00:29:07,704 --> 00:29:09,748
And there's some truth to that.
510
00:29:09,748 --> 00:29:12,709
It's it's just part of
it comes with the territory.
511
00:29:12,709 --> 00:29:15,712
But when we move into mature leadership,
we're able to
512
00:29:16,546 --> 00:29:18,757
say, okay, this is why I'm here.
513
00:29:18,757 --> 00:29:20,592
we'll work through this stuff.
514
00:29:20,592 --> 00:29:25,096
And, and we, we,
we enjoy seeing people grow
515
00:29:25,638 --> 00:29:29,851
and seeing people be led to, to maturity.
516
00:29:30,101 --> 00:29:34,230
And so I've had men that I worked with
517
00:29:34,230 --> 00:29:37,233
that taught me about, well,
518
00:29:37,400 --> 00:29:40,653
the man who told me about eating problems
for breakfast, lunch and dinner.
519
00:29:40,820 --> 00:29:43,156
From him, I learned about maturity
520
00:29:43,156 --> 00:29:46,576
and how a mature person responds
to disappointments and the conflicts.
521
00:29:46,868 --> 00:29:49,913
I had another person that I learned
a lot about faith and how to trust
522
00:29:49,913 --> 00:29:52,999
God and and that
I don't have to make everything happen.
523
00:29:52,999 --> 00:29:55,210
I can rest and just see what God does.
524
00:29:55,210 --> 00:29:56,878
And and there.
525
00:29:56,878 --> 00:30:01,382
So there's just people that God brings
into our lives that helps us to develop
526
00:30:01,382 --> 00:30:05,011
some of the character qualities
that we need in order to be effective
527
00:30:05,595 --> 00:30:08,348
in, in leadership.
528
00:30:08,389 --> 00:30:14,562
part of the problems we can have
in the mature leadership stage is just,
529
00:30:16,815 --> 00:30:20,735
the isolation
that comes with, with leadership.
530
00:30:20,735 --> 00:30:24,030
And, and we need to seek out other leaders
that we can
531
00:30:24,531 --> 00:30:27,826
we can talk to and, and dialog with
532
00:30:27,826 --> 00:30:30,829
and get some encouragement from and, and
533
00:30:32,455 --> 00:30:33,998
and also you can just get weary
534
00:30:33,998 --> 00:30:37,001
of, of the conflict and,
535
00:30:38,044 --> 00:30:41,506
you know, and, and that's
one of the reasons why I think for men
536
00:30:41,506 --> 00:30:45,677
my age, it's
good to, for us to move into roles of,
537
00:30:46,010 --> 00:30:48,763
being coaches and advisors
538
00:30:48,763 --> 00:30:52,267
rather than carrying the responsibility,
because there are things that
539
00:30:53,351 --> 00:30:55,687
if they would have happened when I was
540
00:30:55,687 --> 00:30:59,023
35, 40,
I would have said, okay, we'll fix this.
541
00:30:59,023 --> 00:31:00,316
This is, you know, great.
542
00:31:00,316 --> 00:31:02,986
We'll jump in and we can fix this.
543
00:31:02,986 --> 00:31:05,738
But at 65 or
544
00:31:05,738 --> 00:31:10,201
between 65 and 70 if some of those things
happened, I'd be like, oh, not again.
545
00:31:10,201 --> 00:31:13,204
You know, like, why can't people just
546
00:31:13,872 --> 00:31:16,749
do what they need to do and,
and get along with each other?
547
00:31:16,749 --> 00:31:19,836
And so there's a little lack of energy
548
00:31:20,211 --> 00:31:23,590
and, and just a kind of a weariness
that can set in.
549
00:31:23,590 --> 00:31:24,549
And I think that,
550
00:31:26,509 --> 00:31:29,178
to just endure and to be able to,
551
00:31:29,178 --> 00:31:33,224
when we're in that stage to,
to do the things that that need to be
552
00:31:34,601 --> 00:31:36,436
be done, and then there can be crises
553
00:31:36,436 --> 00:31:39,439
that really big things that come along
554
00:31:39,480 --> 00:31:43,026
that, take a lot of energy, a lot of time
555
00:31:43,276 --> 00:31:47,864
and that are out of the ordinary and,
556
00:31:49,657 --> 00:31:52,660
and there can be failures, things
that that just don't work.
557
00:31:52,660 --> 00:31:57,665
And, and being able to deal with
those is, is important.
558
00:31:57,665 --> 00:32:00,668
But this is a really great stage
because it's one of the
559
00:32:01,586 --> 00:32:06,299
times in life where we have
the most impact and the most influence,
560
00:32:06,633 --> 00:32:09,636
because we were proven to be
561
00:32:09,844 --> 00:32:12,847
to have good character and be competent.
562
00:32:13,264 --> 00:32:17,060
And we can really get,
a lot of things accomplished.
563
00:32:18,311 --> 00:32:21,314
in, in this stage.
564
00:32:21,814 --> 00:32:25,360
So that's stage
4, the life maturing stage.
565
00:32:25,818 --> 00:32:28,821
So what comes after that.
566
00:32:28,905 --> 00:32:29,322
Like that.
567
00:32:29,322 --> 00:32:31,157
Seems like we're getting ourselves to a
568
00:32:31,157 --> 00:32:35,411
to a level
that's Yeah, not not entirely normal.
569
00:32:35,411 --> 00:32:40,333
Like this would be beyond
just average, leadership, perhaps, or I.
570
00:32:40,333 --> 00:32:41,042
I'm not even sure
571
00:32:41,042 --> 00:32:43,461
the right terminology to use,
but I think you know what I'm getting at.
572
00:32:43,461 --> 00:32:45,296
But what comes after that?
573
00:32:45,296 --> 00:32:49,175
Well, for some people
it can move into a fifth stage,
574
00:32:49,175 --> 00:32:55,223
which is convergence,
where, your experience and your passions
575
00:32:55,765 --> 00:32:58,351
and your natural skills
576
00:32:58,351 --> 00:33:03,147
all kind of converge
and you are recognized as you are a person
577
00:33:03,147 --> 00:33:07,902
that, like, you have skills in these areas
and you get to do the things
578
00:33:07,902 --> 00:33:12,365
that you're really good at doing,
like in every job, in every leadership
579
00:33:12,365 --> 00:33:15,368
role, there are things you're good at
and things you're not good at.
580
00:33:15,660 --> 00:33:18,663
There are things you enjoy doing
and things you don't enjoy doing.
581
00:33:19,122 --> 00:33:20,123
But.
582
00:33:20,123 --> 00:33:24,627
for some people, you get to a stage
where people recognize your giftings
583
00:33:25,044 --> 00:33:27,672
to a point where they relieve you
584
00:33:27,672 --> 00:33:31,342
of all the things you're not good at,
and all the things you don't like to do.
585
00:33:31,342 --> 00:33:34,012
And you get to just do
the things you enjoy doing.
586
00:33:34,012 --> 00:33:37,140
is it kind of this is almost like,
587
00:33:37,557 --> 00:33:42,186
yeah, the convergence of skills, passion,
the things that that bring you joy
588
00:33:42,186 --> 00:33:45,189
or the things that you know you're good at
or are rejuvenating.
589
00:33:45,565 --> 00:33:46,983
it's those things coming together.
590
00:33:46,983 --> 00:33:49,235
Am I am I tracking correctly?
591
00:33:49,235 --> 00:33:52,238
Okay, I could see what you mean, that
not everybody
592
00:33:52,739 --> 00:33:56,284
gets to that place, and it seems like
that would be hard for me, I'm.
593
00:33:56,534 --> 00:34:00,121
I'm much stronger on the relational side
594
00:34:00,371 --> 00:34:03,374
of leadership
than I am on the paperwork side.
595
00:34:03,750 --> 00:34:07,712
But there's a lot of administrative
paperwork that needs to be done
596
00:34:08,546 --> 00:34:10,923
to be in a leadership role.
597
00:34:10,923 --> 00:34:14,802
But I did administration,
and I tolerated the paperwork
598
00:34:14,802 --> 00:34:18,139
and tried to be good, good enough
at the paperwork to get a passing grade
599
00:34:18,389 --> 00:34:20,808
because it gave me relationships
with people.
600
00:34:20,808 --> 00:34:25,605
And I could I could shepherd people
and I could help them to develop.
601
00:34:25,605 --> 00:34:29,734
And and I just got my joy out
of seeing people grow and seeing people
602
00:34:29,734 --> 00:34:34,614
be become more enthused about Christ and
about what the kingdom of God is doing.
603
00:34:34,614 --> 00:34:37,825
And, and
and to build skills and abilities.
604
00:34:37,825 --> 00:34:42,705
And but I had to do the,
the whole paperwork side of administration
605
00:34:43,164 --> 00:34:46,459
and all the planning
and all all that stuff.
606
00:34:46,459 --> 00:34:49,378
But in some sometimes it
it would almost drive me crazy.
607
00:34:49,378 --> 00:34:51,881
But then I got to
do the relational side of it.
608
00:34:52,840 --> 00:34:54,842
But now I'm
609
00:34:54,842 --> 00:34:58,304
retired from administration and, and
so I just get to do relationships, right?
610
00:34:58,304 --> 00:35:00,223
I just get I get to do Servant Institute.
611
00:35:00,223 --> 00:35:02,391
I get to do mentoring at servant.
612
00:35:02,391 --> 00:35:03,768
I don't have to do any paperwork.
613
00:35:03,768 --> 00:35:06,437
I don't have to do any planning
like they do all the planning.
614
00:35:06,437 --> 00:35:11,442
I just show up and
and I get assigned people and I, I relate.
615
00:35:11,442 --> 00:35:16,906
And so it's it's,
it's just that time of life
616
00:35:17,448 --> 00:35:20,034
where you really get to enjoy
the things you're good at
617
00:35:20,034 --> 00:35:23,121
and that you really enjoy,
and you're freed of all the
618
00:35:24,413 --> 00:35:27,041
all the things that, you're not good.
619
00:35:27,041 --> 00:35:30,503
And I suppose there's people
that just really enjoy the paperwork
620
00:35:30,503 --> 00:35:33,714
and planning side of it
that go down that route.
621
00:35:33,714 --> 00:35:37,969
And they get to help organizations
with planning and strategy and,
622
00:35:38,469 --> 00:35:41,848
and how you do all the reporting
and all those things and,
623
00:35:42,390 --> 00:35:44,392
and and they really thrive in that.
624
00:35:44,392 --> 00:35:48,396
So, but yeah,
the convergence stage is just
625
00:35:48,855 --> 00:35:51,399
where you get to do the things you really
like to do and are good at.
626
00:35:52,900 --> 00:35:53,860
And then probably
627
00:35:53,860 --> 00:35:57,113
to get to something like that
requires a lot of long term faithfulness.
628
00:35:57,738 --> 00:35:58,823
Yeah.
629
00:35:58,823 --> 00:35:59,532
Yeah.
630
00:35:59,532 --> 00:36:01,951
That's really good.
631
00:36:01,951 --> 00:36:05,746
as a rule, we don't talk about leadership
as much as maybe we should,
632
00:36:05,830 --> 00:36:10,209
defining it and trying to grow
and develop ourselves in that area.
633
00:36:11,085 --> 00:36:11,544
Yeah.
634
00:36:11,544 --> 00:36:15,756
So I'm really glad for you
for what you're doing with your part
635
00:36:15,756 --> 00:36:20,261
in helping to mentor
the next group of leaders coming along.
636
00:36:20,261 --> 00:36:25,933
And, as we tie up this very big topic,
which we've only barely started on
637
00:36:25,933 --> 00:36:28,936
because there's just so much to this,
this thing of leadership.
638
00:36:29,270 --> 00:36:30,855
What are some
things you'd say in conclusion?
639
00:36:30,855 --> 00:36:35,234
What's some, some principles
that people can, take from this episode?
640
00:36:35,651 --> 00:36:37,028
Yeah.
641
00:36:37,028 --> 00:36:39,488
Well, the challenge is to stay engaged
642
00:36:39,488 --> 00:36:43,826
through all the stages
and to let God train us and develop us.
643
00:36:43,826 --> 00:36:47,580
And some parts of it are really painful,
and some parts of
644
00:36:47,580 --> 00:36:50,583
it are really challenging
and really difficult,
645
00:36:50,625 --> 00:36:54,462
and so there are people who drop out,
there are people who plateau.
646
00:36:55,296 --> 00:36:59,342
But hanging in there to the end.
647
00:36:59,342 --> 00:37:02,053
There's a lot of dropouts and
648
00:37:03,221 --> 00:37:04,847
there's a lot of plateaued leaders.
649
00:37:04,847 --> 00:37:06,515
Probably
the majority of leaders are people
650
00:37:06,515 --> 00:37:09,518
that got to a certain stage
and they just plateau.
651
00:37:10,061 --> 00:37:12,647
And there's some
that are focused and disciplined, but
652
00:37:12,647 --> 00:37:18,277
there's a few that really finish
well and and really are able to
653
00:37:18,611 --> 00:37:22,156
to have an impact for more than their own,
their own generation.
654
00:37:22,323 --> 00:37:22,949
And I just encourage us
to think about how we can bless
655
00:37:22,949 --> 00:37:28,246
And I just encourage us
to think about how we can bless
656
00:37:28,788 --> 00:37:32,375
the next generation that follows us. And
657
00:37:33,584 --> 00:37:35,920
and that is like as,
658
00:37:35,920 --> 00:37:39,715
like I have more history behind me
than I have future ahead of me.
659
00:37:40,216 --> 00:37:44,512
But there are men and women
coming into the
660
00:37:45,221 --> 00:37:47,765
flow of history
and God's story of humanity
661
00:37:47,765 --> 00:37:51,102
that have a lot more future
ahead of them than history behind them.
662
00:37:51,102 --> 00:37:54,605
And just as I walk off the stage of
663
00:37:55,481 --> 00:37:58,985
of life to be able to point some direction
664
00:37:58,985 --> 00:38:06,284
to those coming on, and I think that
this is a really I just think we’re
665
00:38:06,284 --> 00:38:11,789
at a really exciting point in history,
like God is doing amazing things
666
00:38:13,082 --> 00:38:16,085
in our world and
667
00:38:16,419 --> 00:38:21,215
your generation has has more resources
668
00:38:21,215 --> 00:38:24,844
than any other generation in our circles
has ever had.
669
00:38:25,261 --> 00:38:28,264
And the technology
670
00:38:28,264 --> 00:38:31,142
that you have, the ability to communicate
671
00:38:31,142 --> 00:38:33,686
is is amazing.
672
00:38:33,686 --> 00:38:37,148
And travel,
the ability to travel is amazing.
673
00:38:37,148 --> 00:38:40,401
Like where I live,
if my grandfather 100 years ago
674
00:38:40,401 --> 00:38:43,654
would have wanted to go from Ephrata,
Pennsylvania to where I live,
675
00:38:44,196 --> 00:38:46,657
it would have taken him
three months to get there
676
00:38:46,657 --> 00:38:51,078
and I can leave my house
in Sioux Lookout at 7:30 in the morning
677
00:38:51,078 --> 00:38:53,289
and be in Philadelphia
at 4:00 in the afternoon.
678
00:38:53,289 --> 00:38:55,583
Like, that's that's amazing.
679
00:38:55,583 --> 00:38:59,879
And we can be almost anywhere in the world
in 24 to 48 hours.
680
00:38:59,879 --> 00:39:02,882
And, and then when we get there,
681
00:39:03,841 --> 00:39:05,676
we can get on some,
682
00:39:06,677 --> 00:39:09,680
social media app and
683
00:39:10,681 --> 00:39:14,226
video our mom and tell her we're here
and show her where we're sleeping.
684
00:39:14,226 --> 00:39:16,604
And she relaxes and
685
00:39:16,604 --> 00:39:19,482
and there's probably more wealth
going to be transferred
686
00:39:19,482 --> 00:39:22,526
from one generation
to another as the baby boomers
687
00:39:22,651 --> 00:39:26,697
die in the next 20 years
than ever before in our circles.
688
00:39:26,697 --> 00:39:31,827
And, so I, I, I'm
kind of jealous of the next generation.
689
00:39:31,827 --> 00:39:34,330
I really think it's a great time
to be alive.
690
00:39:34,330 --> 00:39:35,539
And God is.
691
00:39:35,539 --> 00:39:38,626
I think God's going to do
some amazing things in the next 50 years,
692
00:39:39,335 --> 00:39:42,421
and the people who are a generation
younger than me
693
00:39:42,421 --> 00:39:45,883
are going to get to watch what God does
and and be part of it.
694
00:39:45,883 --> 00:39:48,386
And it's going to take people
who step forward to be leaders,
695
00:39:49,553 --> 00:39:50,513
to make those
696
00:39:50,513 --> 00:39:53,516
to help, to make those things happen.
697
00:39:53,557 --> 00:39:56,811
Using well the gifts and opportunities
that we've been given
698
00:39:57,311 --> 00:40:00,648
and maybe not settling for a lesser level,
699
00:40:01,065 --> 00:40:05,569
but continuing
to, to grow, develop ourselves and help
700
00:40:05,569 --> 00:40:08,781
the people around us essentially isn't,
isn't that what it's ultimately about?
701
00:40:08,948 --> 00:40:14,120
With leadership, you were using
terms like service and serving others.
702
00:40:14,370 --> 00:40:15,246
It's not about us.
703
00:40:15,246 --> 00:40:17,581
It's about how can we serve people better.
704
00:40:17,581 --> 00:40:20,584
And that's true leadership.
705
00:40:20,960 --> 00:40:22,294
Wow. Thank you so much
706
00:40:22,294 --> 00:40:25,381
for coming on today
and and sharing this with us.
707
00:40:25,423 --> 00:40:28,217
This is a lot to think about.
So I appreciate that.
708
00:40:28,217 --> 00:40:28,801
Thank you!
709
00:40:29,635 --> 00:40:32,763
Thanks for listening to this episode
with Merle Burkholder.
710
00:40:32,888 --> 00:40:35,975
In addition to these regular episodes
that we release, we also
711
00:40:35,975 --> 00:40:40,020
publish regular essays over on our website
and in audio form.
712
00:40:40,146 --> 00:40:43,149
You can find that
at anabaptistperspectives.org.
713
00:40:43,315 --> 00:40:44,024
We also publish
714
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