Hey, Jeremy, I love

that we are going for a

walk with you right now.

I just find this so

incredibly appropriate that

we're talking to you while

you're going for a walk

in nature up in Olinda.

It's beautiful.

uh, thanks Amish.

a nice thing to do.

I do have the joy of

being able to work from

home one day a week.

And that's,

today, Wednesdays.

And um, I generally walk

up and down the mountain

as I'm taking meetings.

I usually do like a,

110 flights of stairs.

It's good.

So Jeremy, tell us who you

are, because you're quite

well known in the industry.

name's Jeremy McLeod.

I'm a co founder of Breed

Architecture, a co founder

of Nightingale Housing.

I'd also say I'm a co

founder of Goodbye Gas.

It was Ben's idea, but

I helped him raise the

capital to get it started.

I like doing

important things.

And, as I trained as an

architect, I started to

realize that wasn't just

Waiting for the phone

to call and to draw what

people told me, that they'd

seen on Grand Designs.

Perhaps there's a,

there's a different

way to do things.

So do you still refer to

yourself as an architect?

Like when people go,

what do you do, do you

say I'm an architect?

yeah, I do.

I think, like anything,

we're all kind of, you

know, we'll get tangled up

in our past and, the legacy

issues of how long it's

taken us to get somewhere

and, our identity gets

tied up with, what we do

rather than who we are.

So, yeah, I do, Matt.

I think, I work so hard.

I am attached

to that title.

I look forward to

spending some more

time with the Buddhist

monk and not needing to

refer to myself as an

architect at some point.

I'll let you know

when I get there.

may call yourself an

architect, but from

my side, like I call

you an inspiration.

And I think you and I

have connected over a

few things over the last

year or so, and, I feel

quite privileged, you

know, that you and I have

connected and, you know,

you've jumped on some

sustainable bills, Alliance

stuff and, you know, we've

connected through Ben.

and I don't necessarily

just wanna sit on one

thing today, whether that's

Breathe or Nightingale

or Goodbye gas, you know,

and I really wanna hear

your thoughts around how

are we gonna solve this?

Housing problem that we've

got because Matt and I

have had a chat about it

before and just slapping up

stuff and satellite suburbs

is not the solution.

And I'd like to hear your

side from, you know, this

Nightingale model and

maybe if you can talk

to the listeners about

what that actually is,

you know, and then how

you're trying to also

solve that problem with

your practice of breathe.

You know, you're also

solving a problem with

electrifying homes as well,

whether that's through

your, your practice or

Nightingale or go by gas.

seems to be lots of

problems out there that

you seem to be trying

to solve a lot of them.

But so, so could you

maybe help our listeners

to try to understand how

you're trying to solve

some of these problems

and where you see the

future of housing?

Yeah, sure.

firstly HamIsh, 20 percent

of my time at Braid is

spent on what, you know,

we call at Braid advocacy.

We started the design

practice with the idea

that we could use design

as a weapon for good.

To kind of, you know,

deliver on issues around

kind of humanity or equity,

but also on sustainability

and climate change.

So I'm, I'm here today,

guys, because, Hamish,

I have been lucky

enough to meet you on

a number of occasions.

And I see what you and

Matt are doing, you know,

in the building industry.

And I see that you, like

me, are fellow travellers.

Not just prepared to sit

there and be directed

by a runaway market

or the status quo, but

you're actually trying

to change things.

So I'm a big supporter

of other people trying to

do big, hard, important

things, like I'm a big

supporter of Yoast Backer,

for example, you know.

He's so idealistic, you

know, it's incredible what

he does, so I just lean

in behind whenever I can.

that's why I'm here

today, because you are the

people doing great things.

And I think that I arrived

at Breathe as a human first

and as an architect second.

So, everything, the way

that I've grown up with

my family is kind of,

you know, Political and

environmental activists,

people who cared about,

their fellow humans, you

know, my dad worked in,

homeless shelters, you

know, he, he took me on

a bus to Canberra with

a whole bunch of social

housing tenants from,

uh, from Footscray To

kind of decry the closing

down of public housing

in Victoria and to lobby

for more public funding.

My parents taught me that

if you want to change

something, then you

need to have a voice.

You need to find

a way to do that.

So, that's the way

that I was brought up.

Do something, or

don't complain.

And then I think secondly

I thought that architecture

for working in the built

environment, given that

that's the biggest emission

sector in the world, so

you know, 37 39 percent

of all carbon comes from

the built environment.

And so that's the

easiest place to win.

And so that's why, I guess

it made sense to me to be

a human trying to do good

at a company called Braid.

I think interestingly

working as an architect,

can sit there and wait

for someone to give

you a brief, or you can

try and help determine

a different outcome.

Interestingly, as an

architect, I felt like

we didn't have enough

agency to be able to

drive different outcomes.

So, then kind of built

a prototype building and

opened up for public tours.

It was called the Commons.

Uh, it was about, this

idea that you could

build sustainability.

community and affordability

simultaneously through

thoughtful holistic

approach of sustainability

of reductionism.

We then went, used that

as a springboard to build

Nightingale One and write

a manifesto about, what

could a different housing

solution look like if

it was based on housing

for people, not profit?

What if you took the

profit motive out?

What would that lead to?

And funnily enough,

it enables you to

build great housing

for people and great

housing for the planet.

But it needs to still

be able to operate in

a capitalist democracy.

So you need it to be

financially robust enough

to be able to pay the

equity and capital partners

and the debt on the bank

and all of those things.

and then Nightingale's kind

of, grown exponentially,

you know, from, you

know, the first building,

Nightingale 1, to, you

know, about 15 completed

buildings over know, 700

apartments, you know,

either, completed or under

construction, another

400 in the pipeline, you

know, and this kind of

growing waiting list of

people that would want

to be involved in that.

So I think that

Nightingale's

been incredible.

And then, we came back to

Breathe, and, You know,

my involvement in Goodbye

Gas really was, you know,

meeting Ben Russell, we

lived together at the

commons, with another

guy called Pete Steele.

Pete Steele was ex Morland

Energy Foundation, Ben

Russell was, you know,

getting into solar and

battery storage, great

sparky, cared about the

planet and just really,

really incredible kind

of attention to detail.

He wanted to start Goodbye

Gas, and I think that,

you know, Pete and I

lent in behind him to

kind of help him do that.

And we're really proud of

that, I think, because,

as an architect, it's

really interesting when we

talk to people constantly

about what's the biggest

impact that anyone can

have, like on a, on a

renovation of their home.

And it's, you know, one is,

Electrifying everything,

and two, is where you

buy your electrons from.

So just educating people

on buying green power.

But interestingly a lot of

people aren't doing that.

And so Goodbye Gas tries

to understand why they are,

what are their barriers

to entry, and how do we

smooth out those barriers.

So, That's, you know,

Goodbye Gas, and again,

, Ben and Marcella, who,

who used to work with me

at Brave, was sick of not

having enough agency as an

architect, believe it or

not, went to go and work

at Goodbye Gas with Ben,

and so, those two are kind

of like the powerhouse

at Goodbye Gas, trying

to electrify everything.

So, that's kind of, three,

I've been, working on

historically, you know,

the question about housing,

my God, in the 50s,

Menzies said it would be

great if every Australian

could own a home.

and so we were built off

this, Helping make that

possible and then I think

in 2000, you know, we saw

changes to capital gains

tax exemptions and Negative

gearing through the Howard

government housing in

this country now, it's

all about an asset and

investment And it's not

about, you know, housing

as a basic human right.

So, I think we need

to ask ourselves as

a society, what do we

want housing to be?

Because if it's just

a tradable I think,

you know, we've got

to, try and fix that.

that's generations

of change and there's

so much that unpack.

I've actually got I've

written like 30 things

down here on my diary

about questions you've

you've things about you've

raised but you make a very

interesting point about

how view our house as an

asset which the hard issue

to remove your thinking

from that is most people

have spent more money

than they're ever going

to have on that house.

Like how do we not

treat it like an asset?

Because everyone wants to

protect their own wealth

at the end of the day.

interestingly, Australia

has very interesting tax

settings internationally.

So, our primary place

of residence, isn't

subject to taxation.

the problem with making,

uh, your primary place

of residence a tax haven,

Is that, whole bunch of

financial planners will

tell you to spend too

much money on a house,

um, to buy a house bigger

than what you need.

In order to get capital

growth, because that's

where you're going

to get your money.

And if you buy a house

for a million dollars

this year and you sell it

for two million dollars

in ten years time, you

don't pay any tax on that.

Whereas if you don't

have a house, and you're

paying rent every day,

and you work at McDonald's

flipping burgers, you

know, you pay tax on every

cent that you earn over

the tax free threshold.

So, it's very interesting

that we're incentivised

to buy bigger houses, but

at the same time, taxation

rules say that, if you rent

out your second bedroom,

so you've been encouraged

to buy a house that's too

big, because you, you get

tax concessions, but if

you rent out your second

bedroom or your third

bedroom or your fourth

bedroom to, a nursing

student as an idea.

You trigger a capital

gains tax problem, which

then dis incentivises

you from using all the

spare rooms in your house.

So, we've got taxation

settings which I think

take the idea of safe

and secure housing to

another level, right?

Where else can you

invest somewhere and

never pay tax on the

profit that you make?

And the issue as well,

it doesn't, like, so

older people, so we'll

use my parents for

example, like they've got

a huge house now that all

the kids have moved out.

Then they're not

incentivized to downsize

because they've got

to go pay stamp duty

on the next property.

so, there's also the double

whammy that people don't

want to move because,

going to pay another tax.

just because one, they

might've earned some money

and they can now move to a

suburb they've started out

and they want to move in

somewhere or vice versa,

but they kind of get

you from all directions.

in, uh, in Vienna, in

Austria, about 70 percent

of housing is owned by the

state, by the city state.

And people rent that, and

that's kind of beautiful,

you know, Four and five

story apartments with great

hydronic heating panels

and parquetry floors.

And so because everyone

can live there for as long

as they want to in great

housing owned by the state.

There's no scarcity model

there, which means people

can live well for as

long as they want to in

secure housing, and they

can invest their money

in impact investment,

in the share market,

in, productive ventures.

in Australia, about 71

percent of people own

homes, and about 30

percent of people don't,

or 29 percent don't.

As long as more people

own homes than don't, the

government is going to

be incentivized to keep

house prices rising, right?

, and so the problem with

everyone owning a home, in

a capitalist marketplace

that would then mean

that there's no scarcity.

So, if it was a, if

we were in a socialist

democracy, we'd say housing

everyone, like in Finland,

a housing first policy.

It's exactly what

we should do.

But here we're at got

these competing interests,

like one is, yes, we want

everyone to be housed, the

other thing is, but I want

my house value to go up.

Do you think that changes

here in Australia or it's

just too ingrained in

us?

No, No, I think we can

definitely change, but I

think that we've got to

actually acknowledge it,

accept it's the truth,

, and then I think the

change takes time, right?

So Alan Kohler has

written a big piece about

this, like it's, going

to take 20 years of non

residential price growth

to actually try to repair

the kind of inflationary

status of house pricing

in Australia, but anyway.

Nightingale, , no

car parking.

massive resistance

from, the property

developer next door.

the interesting thing

is that, what do I

think the resistance

is about car parking?

And I think Matt, it's

just a change, a challenge

to the status quo.

If you want to do anything

that's different from

the past, people will

feel threatened by that

and they can't imagine

a different future.

And so it's been very

interesting for us to see.

People in their 60s and 70s

in Brunswick, for example,

you know, with a really

nice, you know, big house,

uh, with a couple of cars,

Living very comfortably,

they might have bought it

in the 80s for, 50, 000.

Their house is now

worth, you know, 2.

2 million.

And the things that

they get upset about is,

us building a building

next to a train station,

next to a bike path,

next to a bus line,

next to the tram stop.

And not putting cars in it.

Because for them, the

way that they see the

world is the way that

they live, right?

Which is that they

drive everywhere.

And they can't imagine,

the life that my

daughters might lead.

So, Tam and I have

four daughters.

Two of them don't

have a license, never

have, don't drive.

, it's cheaper and more

convenient for them to

use public transport.

Ride, walk, or take an

Uber, or a DD, you know,

so, just live differently.

But, it's a change to the

status quo, and everyone

talks about what are

we going to do, like

everyone wrings their hands

about this one building

without cars, when in 99.

9 percent of all other

buildings have car

parks in them, and

a study by, um, Dr.

Elizabeth Taylor at RMIT,

Uh, which would have been,

what, 2015, showed that

the city of Melbourne had

33, 000, over 33, 000 empty

car spaces in existing

buildings in the city.

So lots of people had paid

for car spaces in their

build, all the carbon went

in to build those things,

but there's been no market

matching between people

who actually have cars and

people buying apartments.

So that was a

bit of a checkmate.

That was like checkmate.

exactly.

And so, and so

since that time.

There's been a

number of apps

or web

platforms that have

been released like, uh,

ParkHound and Spacer that,

match that market, right?

So, someone who's got an

empty car space and someone

who needs a car space, but

doesn't want to buy one in

their apartment or doesn't

have one in the apartment

they're renting in, So then

they can go and rent that.

So it starts to

match the market.

Instead of building more

of something, we use

a sharing economy and

technology to actually

meet people's demands

more evenly and flatten

out the demand curve.

Jeremy, I just want to

circle back to a statistic

you, talked about just

before, which I, on the

outset, thought it was

quite surprisingly high and

that 71 percent of people

in Australia own homes

let's fact check that

in the notes, but

that's my understanding

that 71 percent of

Australians own the

homes that they live in.

that seems

surprisingly high to

me, but I guess I

haven't really ever

thought about it.

Well, well also

that's demographic,

that's demographically

shifted, right?

So, baby boomers, you

know, older people.

Have a much higher

proportion of home

ownership and then people

aged between 25 and 35 have

a much lower percentage

of home ownership.

So

you're pretty much

bang, you're bang,

you're bang on.

With a

statistic.

It's, it's, it's, yeah.

62 point 66.2%.

That, that was actually

gonna be what I was gonna

say next because I feel

as, our baby boomers move

on from this life and,

um, you know, there's

a greater, proportion

of the population.

It is that 30 to 45 sort of

mark that don't own homes.

I wonder if we're

gonna see that bigger

drastically fall.

It has.

So here's the statistics

for you already.

So I'll quickly go for you.

So 30% of households

own outright their home.

So no mortgage, 37%

of households own

it with a

mortgage.

Now, if we compare,

I'm gonna remove Gen Z

for the minute because

they're 1997 to 2012.

They're a

bit younger.

They're probably just

starting to work.

Some of them.

so if we compare

baby boomer, baby

boomers, so 78.

5 percent of them.

Um, and then we'll go

down to Millennials.

They're 65.

7%.

So there's a, there's

a good 13 percent

different

generation.

Gen Z is 24.

3.

I think that's probably a

little bit skewed because

they're probably not old

enough to work

some of them.

you can see that

trend occurring, right?

Because as the cost

of housing increases.

And as the value of

existing housing stock

increases due to scarcity,

that people trying to

enter the housing market,

it becomes increasingly

more difficult for them to

actually access housing.

I feel like Millennials at

the moment are having it

harder than anyone else.

like, we're paying for

all this issue with the

interest rate rises, like,

the thing is, like, so baby

boomers, they're born in,

say, 1946 or 1964, that's

78 percent of

them, own a home.

With all these interest

rate rises, it doesn't

affect them.

they paid off

their 150, 000

house they bought.

it's good for them, right?

Because they've got money

in their term deposits.

So as interest rates go

up, they make more money.

then they spend more money,

leading to inflation.

And the only mechanism

the government has to

try and trim inflation

is to push up interest

rates, which puts more

money in the pocket

of those who own their

houses, and less money in

the pocket of those who

don't own their houses.

Or hit employment.

So therefore, the

people that need to earn

the money, like, the

millennials, and,

like, they're the

ones to get hurt.

it is, a conundrum.

Anyway, we're

not, we're not,

we're a bit off track.

Hamish and I can go down

a rabbit hole very quickly

and just go completely

off track.

don't know what the

solution is, but I

do know that there's

a bit of a problem.

but we know the

solution with housing.

I think it's fair to

say that you've got

a very good idea on

how we can solve it.

that was going to lead to

my, to my next question.

So like, if housing is

a basic human right, for

those that don't know

what the Nightingale model

is, and we've briefly

touched on it, how does

the Nightingale model,

because correct me if

I'm wrong, Jeremy, it's

not just a building, the

Nightingale is a model.

Could you maybe just tell

the listeners like, you

know, very high level,

because I really want

to get someone from

the Nightingale on this

podcast too, to like have

a whole podcast episode

dedicated to it.

But could you just

give the listeners a

bit of a high level

idea of, what

Nightingale is?

It's relatively

straightforward.

It's a triple bottom

line housing model.

So, fundamentally what that

means is that it needs to

be sustainable, and

what does that mean,

how do you measure that?

It's got to be seven

and a half star NatHerz

minimum not five stars.

It's got to be 100

percent electric, and

the building has to buy

100 percent renewables

through an embedded

energy network, which

then saves the residents,

because it bulk buys that

power, and passes on the

wholesale rates of that

power to the residents.

So you get cheaper,

greener power.

In a more efficient

apartment, using

less carbon, costing

you less money.

so the first pillar

is, sustainability.

You know, this triple

bottom line model.

The second model

is about community.

So how do you

deliver on community?

And um, the sustainability

and the community

kind of work together.

So, if you think about

the sustainability of

reductionism, We take

out all the laundries

for example, individual

laundries in every

apartment, and then we

build killer rooftop

laundries, beautiful

rooftop gardens.

And so in an apartment

of you know 25, or a

building of 25 apartments,

there might only be

7 washing machines on

the roof instead of 25.

Everyone gets extra

space in their

apartment, everyone's

apartment costs less.

Everyone doesn't have to

buy their washing machine

so they get to share that,

so the price of their

apartment comes down.

But their amenity increases

because they've got a

killer rooftop laundry,

they've got the choice

of six washing machines

The Miss V, the non toxic

cleaner that works through

the apartments puts in,

e water sanitizer, e

water cleanser in those,

, Laundry, she puts in

bulk by, washing liquid

without phosphates in

it and fabric softener.

So all the residents

get to use that, so

solving sustainability

but also saving

costs simultaneously.

But importantly from a

community perspective

think about it like a well

in an Italian village.

Historically the people

would come together to

do simple tasks, so the

simple act of utility

of doing your laundry.

It brings people together

and a similar goal.

And so what we find is

that people who live

in our buildings, they

kind of, they build

communities faster because

we generally build smaller

buildings like 20, 25,

maybe 40 apartments.

and the people with the

dogs meet each other first,

people with the kids meet

each other second, and

the people who wash their

clothes at the same time

meet each other third.

And then there's other

kind of shared amenities

like a bathhouse.

And a guest house

that, you know, your

friends and family

can come and stay in.

So that you don't need

to buy an apartment

bigger than what

you actually need.

But the community piece

is really kind of,

shared facilities that

everyone can benefit from.

So a great rooftop dining

space, yeah, this shared,

you know, beautiful bath

house and a shared guest

house, which everyone

gets the benefit of.

And then lastly, it's the

sustainable finance, you

know, so how do we source

equity for for the project?

So we source capital

from impact investors.

to take a risk adjusted

return, so a lesser return

on their money, because

it's sustainable and

it's community focused.

And then we deal with

banks that lend money

in to this project that

want to do good as well.

So basically, and then we

sell it without profit.

So whatever the project

costs, that's what we

sell it for and then we

sell it through a ballot.

So rather than just selling

it through an auction

and charging as much as

we can, We set all the

prices to pay back all

of our costs and then we

sell it at that number.

So it doesn't seem to be

rocket science, but um, as

a result, our waiting list

has grown from kind of,

you know, 42 people for the

first building to not even

one, there's now over 29,

000 people on a database.

I'm not saying they all

want to, you know, move

in tomorrow, but you

know, our last ballot

had 25 apartments.

Wow.

So, so you said the

keyword profit there.

How do we then get

other developers

taking on this model?

So it's a win win

situation because to

solve these issues, we

actually need developers.

We need to build houses.

So how do we actually

bring them along for the

ride and be like, Hey,

there's an alternative that

we can still do that.

They make

some money that people get

houses at a lower rate.

Like,

how do we sort of

solve that issue?

Well, I think that,

property development

and construction, it's

all big and hard and

scary and there's risk

associated with it.

So my view on developers

has softened drastically

over the last seven

years as we've tried to

deliver more and more

of these buildings.

So, Matt, I don't think

we necessarily need other

people to do a not for

profit or a charitable

housing organisation.

But I think that

Nightingale can be

used as an opportunity

for evolution in

the housing market.

So, if we can show everyone

that you can do apartments

that are minimum 7.

5 stars, 100 percent

electric, this is how an

embedded energy network

goes, and then we can open

that up for tours, and

share that information

openly, then, ideally, then

we start to see for profit

developers, like Amelieu,

Delivering apartment

buildings that are 7.

5 stars, 100 percent

electric, powered by

100 percent renewables.

You know, they're B Corp

certified now, so they're

for profit, they're doing

great work, they're at

a different place in the

market, but they meet, you

know, all of Niningale's

environmental credentials.

We see Neo Metro, doing 7.

5 stars, 100 percent

electric, 100 percent

renewables now and if you

look at how do you do it

at scale, I mean the work

that Assemble have done

in the last five years has

been incredible, right?

So they, they deliver the

same environmental outcomes

as Nightingale and they're

doing it at scale, largely

as build to rent, using

billions of dollars of

superannuation capital, and

then they win on pricing,

by, doing it at scale.

So they've got about

10, 000 apartments, you

know, in the pipeline.

So that's what looks good

to me, Matt, that the

future, isn't necessarily

not for profit or

charitable, but it's a

bunch of other people

doing interesting things

to try and break the mold.

So the issue we have with

scale is also heights that

from what I understand

the barriers around

councils being like, you

can't build that high.

It's too high where if

you look at model saying,

for example, in Canada.

They will allow you to

build higher if you do

better and bigger things.

So they'll incentivize

you to do more if you

meet a certain criteria.

So for example, that they

might allow you to build

another 5 percent if you

build a passive house.

So we turn this to

certification and

another 5 percent if you

add another section of

social housing.

Is that something that

we, can adopt or is there

other things from other

countries that you've seen

that You

think we just need

to bring here and

bring it here fast?

Well, I think

that what we need from

our planning and planning

rules is certainty.

you know, I think

that there's so much

uncertainty in planning.

So it's a.

Discretionary height limit,

not a maximum height limit.

Which means, what does

that actually mean, right?

So developers are always

going to push against that.

So I think the challenge

with the idea of density

bonuses or height

bonuses is that it starts

to be a game, right?

I think that what we

should actually do is just

provide absolute clarity,

saying, if I'm working

in Sydney as opposed to

Melbourne actually West

Melbourne now has a, has

a structure plan that

includes floor area ratios

or floor space ratios.

So we know exactly what

the floor area ratio is,

so if I'm buying a 1, 000

square metre site with a 3

to 1 ratio, I can build 3,

000 square metres of gross

floor area, that's great, I

know exactly what I can do.

So when I build my

feasibility, I then have to

read the design objectives,

and Matt, if it says the

design objectives are 7.

5 stars, 100 percent

electric, 100 percent

renewables, that's good, I

know what I've got to do.

I can build that into

the feasibility, I can

then go and buy the site.

If it says passive

house, that's great.

I can write that in, and

then that's what I can

go and, that will adjust

out the land value and

the feasibility because

at the moment, land in

Australia is speculative.

And, um, when there's not,

uh, very strict planning

controls, and the people

don't know whether they

can build, uh, six storeys

or ten storeys, Often

the person is prepared

to pay for something that

they assume that they

can get 10 stories for.

They'll pay more

for the land.

So the, the

landholder wins.

They get money for not

providing any housing

and then the person

that's bought it is

then committed to trying

to get 10 stories.

Otherwise, they

lose a lot of money.

And it also saves time

from cancels, that there's

no VCAT cases, there's not

as much back and forth,

it's black and white.

yeah, correct.

Like, doesn't it make

life for everyone

so much easier?

absolutely.

And, and if you're a

neighbor, you know,

and you've read the

local structure plan

that says, ah, in this

activity center, it's

going to be six stories.

If you're not comfortable

with that, don't buy

the house, but if that's

there, then that's fine.

You know that it's going

to be six storeys, and

this is, these are the

requirements under the

structure plan, and

then, you've got a lot of

certainty, and you don't

waste time at VCAT or

at Peel's, and the thing

is that in development,

time, is associated

with cost, right?

Because you've got to

borrow capital to build

these things, so the

longer it takes, the

more expensive it is.

I've got a question.

I've just written it

down as I'm reading

through all my notes here.

And I want to ask

you, are you proud of

what you've achieved?

yes, Hamish, I'm

really proud of it.

I'm really proud of it.

I mean, I, you know,

unfortunately, 2020

hindsight is a real pain.

So, I get to see the

things that we could have

done better, or could

have done differently.

So, I also live with a

lot of regret, but no,

I'm incredibly proud

of what I've done.

And my parents, are

proud of me, which

is important to me.

But you don't get there

without those mistakes

though, like you don't

get to where you are.

I was literally just,

about to say that

without that, that 2020

hindsight, it, I would

argue that it wouldn't

then give you the drives.

To do all the other

things that you've done.

I mean, if you didn't

look back on the work that

you've done with Breathe,

then identify a problem

that you wouldn't have

then started Nightingale,

or if you hadn't have made

mistakes with Nightingale

or Breathe, then,

you know, when Mr.

Hanson, Ben

Russell came up to you and

said, Hey, I've got this

idea, you might not have.

Jumped on that and

said, Hey, that's a

fucking great idea.

It's true.

I think, you know,

like, we're all

just human, right?

So, I think yeah, I think

that, and it's easy to

focus on the things you

got wrong, like, not

the stuff you got right.

And I think that, to be

totally honest, you know,

if I had to put it in a

spreadsheet, Are we 51%?

Did we, did we have

51 percent wins?

Did we have more

wins than losses?

And the answer

is absolutely.

It's been incredible.

And um, I'm proud to

live in Melbourne.

You know, like it's been

really tough times, but

just to look at those other

companies like Milieu, Neo

Metro, you know, Assemble,

they're all, they're

all born in Melbourne.

people say to me,

what's, what's

happening in Melbourne?

I'm like, it's a

particular breed that just.

Put their shoulder

to the wheel to

actually do innovation

particularly around

sustainability and housing.

So it's a good

city to be in

totally agree.

Look, I mean, as I said

before, at the start of

episode, you know, I feel

really privileged that,

we've connected and that,

you know, you've said

some nice things about me

and Matt and what we're

doing, because probably

much like yourself, it is

hard to sometimes stop and.

Look at all the things that

you do and be proud of the

things that you've done.

Which is why I asked you

the question, because

I feel Matt and I

probably come from the

same rug as you is that

we're always trying to

innovate and be better,

and we're very happy to

talk about all the times

that we fucked up and learn

from it and then try and be

better, which really is the

genesis of this podcast

is to try and share all

the times that we've fucked

up, get people on that have

also done that, but

I've also done really

amazing things.

And hopefully collectively

we can all move forward

and create a

better life for

our kids and

their kids.

And

Hamish I gotta ask, are you

proud of what you've done?

I struggle with this

question because I'm

one of those people,

it's like, what's next?

I always want to be better.

So, so I, I really

acknowledge and I'm super

proud of where I've got to.

Like, I'm only 35 and I'm

pretty proud that I'm being

able to build myself a

passive house at this age.

Like, I'm

very happy and proud

that me and my wife

have been able to

do that.

But I'm also not

proud the fact

that what we're doing

isn't bigger and better.

it's really interesting

right that it shouldn't

be a hard question for

you too because you two

don't have to be on the

podcast today You don't

need to be worrying about

educating other builders.

You know, you don't need to

be generous with your IP.

You could just go and build

houses that are too big,

houses that are poorly

insulated, or are poor

quality, you know, but have

an air of luxury around it,

make your money, buy some

jet skis, retire early.

And you two have both

chosen not to do that.

So, I think you should

both be super proud.

tell you the thing that

I'm most proud of, I'm

most proud of my ability

to make connections with

people that I feel, sing

the same hymn sheet as.

That's what I'm

most proud of.

Cause if I look around,

uh, even to, to the group

that I train with, which

includes Ben, two or

three times a week and the

connections that we've got

there, the connections I've

got with Matt and my other

quote unquote competitors

in the industry of us

trying to band together

and try and be better

sustainable bills alliance,

the connections that

we've made there and what

we're trying to do there.

Yeah.

That's what I'm

most proud of.

The fact that I can

make a living out of it.

Well, fuckin happy days,

high fives all around.

Yeah,

yeah

Do you sometimes just

wish, Haym, that you

were just a shit builder

though,

and you're just

like, I don't care?

like, you're just like,

aren't there days you're

just like, fuck, I just

wish I didn't care?

no, yeah, but I mean I'm

glad you guys care and

it's so good that you're

generous with your time to

help educate the industry.

I love it.

I'd say you're right

now, Jeremy, that

means that means a

lot coming from you.

That really does genuinely.

I could, I could talk to

you for hours and I can

listen to you for hours.

And I think you've got

such amazing ideas and

you, should be incredibly

proud of what you've done.

And I'm genuinely

excited to.

continue a friendship

with you over the, you

know, the coming years

and I'm super excited to

collaborate on more things

together, whether they be

panels or discussions

like this.

So thank you so much.

And you're so generous

with your time.

And I think thank you

from an industry as well.

Thank you from everyone.

Oh, no, thanks.

Thanks, Matt.

That's something that

you probably like, we can

thank you, but there is

probably other people who

don't know how to

thank you

For example, those

who now live in the

first nightingale,

like that, that they're

very thankful for

their opportunity.

and for the

future generation.

So thank you.

No, thanks heaps, lads.

Take care and, uh,

Hamish, I'll see

you soon, no doubt.