Welcome to the Yappy Hour, powered by Yappily, the podcast for dog lovers who want to better understand and connect with their canine companions. I'm your host, Nathan Dunleavy, and today we are diving back into a topic close to my heart, separation anxiety. This time I'm joined by Rosee Riggs. A certified separation anxiety, pro behaviour consultant and myth busting powerhouse who's on a mission to clear up all the confusion and guilt that often surrounds the emotional disorder. If you've ever been told your dog's just spoiled or that there gets over it, if you ignore them, this is the episode you need to hear. So grab a cup of tea, settle in, and let's get started.

Welcome back to The Yappy Hour, powered by Yappily. I'm your host, Nathan Dunleavy, and I'm so excited to bring you another episode of The Yappy Hour Today. Joining me today is Rosee Riggs. Welcome Rosee to the Yappy Hour. How are you doing?

Yeah, I so much for the invitation, Nathan. It's so nice to be here.

You are most welcome. And I just asked you before we hit record, how I pronounced your, like your name, because I can't pronounce my Rs. And then as, as I said it, I don't think it came out right. 'cause I can't pronounce my Rs. It's Rosee

Riggs. Yes. Rosee Riggs. Exactly.

Well, we'll just gonna, we're gonna stick with Rosee anyway so that's fine. So I'm really looking forward to this one. 'Cause even though essay separation anxiety is a topic I know, wow. I still hear a lot of myths popping up again and again. And it's just really great to get someone else's perspective on it and to, you know, bust some of those myths, which we're going to be doing today. What made you decide to focus much of your work on tackling misinformation? Rosee,

Well I've been a canine consultant for like. 12 years, and I've become more and more specialized in anxious and fearful dogs and dogs from a deprivation background. So in various different contexts, people come to me, incredibly dedicated, people who have spent a lot of money and a lot of time trying to help their dog. and not only on the internet, but also unfortunately from trainers who don't have training in this, been advised all sorts of stuff which they, they can see is making it worse. You know, recently I have now a very successful client whose dog is chilled at a couple of hours, but they spent five years

Wow.

to do the, and so. Misinformation is a huge problem in our world anyway at the moment. But misinformation about this subject means that you've got a dog with a severe welfare issue. You know, it's, causes such distress and the distress of seeing their dog like this, and then they're being given information, which makes things worse. So why I'm quite passionate about trying to cut to the chase, really, because the good news is that we can very reliably help dogs

Mm-hmm.

isn't always the

Yeah.

right? 'cause I had a, a greyhound, I a Greyhound 12 years ago now Stevie,

Mm-hmm.

he could only stay alone with me. He had true separation anxiety in the sense that he even, he loved people. He was very open with with people. But having come from what I think is a deprivation background, just living in kennels and

Mm

not having much human contact, he that I was the person who was going to keep him safe. 'cause that's what

Oh,

about, Nathan. It's

yes.

the dog, feeling safe.

Yeah.

Yeah. So at that time there wasn't a, a method really, that anybody seemed to know about.

Mm.

yeah, so I know what it's like firsthand. do as well to.

Yes. You and me both. Yeah. Our, our viewers will know. They've got my own essay dog, and I love talking about it, so it's great to get your perspective on things, Rosee. So why do you think the SA is so widely misunderstood, even in 2025?

Well, that is a big question, but when I adopted was 2012 and nobody was talking about it at all. If you said, I was actually in the middle of doing my training a, a, a canine behaviour consultant at that time, and it was always a bit sort of like, oh, your dog can't stay on. That's tough. Yeah, that was it. But you know, I mean, Greyhound is not a chihuahua. He was a big greyhound and he had never lived in a house before, so, and he didn't know what a door was. So if he wanted to try and get out, he would try and get out the windows and he would be bringing down the curtains and there would be devastation.

Wow.

And my, I had two whip, its at the same time. And when I, you know, came home, this only happened a couple of times 'cause I, you know, cotton doung pretty quickly. But yeah, so they were looking like this. So at that time there was really nothing out there except that there was one book by someone quite famous who said to practice with keys picking up your keys

Oh yes.

of day putting on your jacket and giving your dog Kong and leaving them to, well, Stevie didn't know what a con was. So, and when he was excited which was often at that stage because he'd just come from the racetrack.

Oh,

You know, they're either like very tired and or very, very hyper. But I picked up my keys and put them down once, exactly once. And I figured out that that is not gonna help us at all, because he was frantic.

oh.

figured the fear that I was leaving. So I thought, well, I don't think that's gonna work for us. Yeah, I know what a con was. Anyway, so I at that stage that, that if, for example, I had a child that was afraid of the dog. I wasn't gonna leave his child in the dog. And so I thought, well, I, I can't leave him alone. Right?

Mm

I, I managed absences. I got him used to and comfortable and feel safe with other people. And then I went to look so John Bradshaw, you know the wonderful canine scientists in Bristol, he had just published a book in 2011 called Dog Sense, or In Defense of Dogs, I think it's called.

mm.

He was the first person to draw attention to the fact that it's a very, difficult, very severe welfare issue, but it still wasn't a method. So one of the reasons I think, that knowing how to deal with it is relatively recent or developing a very effective method is relatively recent. of course, in the meantime, many people have tried all sorts of stuff, and that is all over the internet. the internet has a very long memory, and so when people. Googling you know, how do I help my dog or stay at home alone, or whatever they're Googling. They're coming up with a lot of stuff. I think that's probably the main reason. Also in, social media groups that I look, I've, I've left a lot of them now because it's difficult to watch. But unless they have moderated an admin well, so that it's clear who is an owner and who is actually a qualified behaviourist.

Yes, I know.

there is so much terrible advice. You, has it. Yes. We'll just put them in a crate or just,

Oh gosh.

go out for five minutes and then the next day go out for 10 minutes. Well, that's a lot. If you are terrified of something, isn't it?

Mm mm mm

Sort of answers your question a little bit.

No, no, that's great. Brilliant. Alright, we're gonna be moving on to our next section, which is all about the top myths we need to let go of. So Rosee, what would you say are the most common myths you hear about SA that still do the rounds online?

Alright. Yeah. So we're getting into, into the, these groups and what's going around? I think probably the, one of the, depending on where you are, one of the main things is to that a crate, somehow putting your dog in a crate will somehow make them feel safe and,

Mm.

or, you know, just stop the behaviour. I think those are people who. Often don't look beyond the behaviour

Yeah.

a, a dog has, given up a crate or something that, that solved the problem. But we know that most, most, most clients who've ever come to me who've had that advice try also just tried it once because they saw that this extra level of helplessness and, isolation the dog just, just made it worse. I mean, it just frantic. So as it happens I live in Austria, it is illegal to keep your dog in a crate at home.

Oh, interesting. I never knew that.

For welfare reasons. It, it, it is. okay to use a, a crate for travel purposes travel safety or recovery from Med Medical. But who come to me off usually actually have said, we may have tried it once, but we didn't think that was a good idea either. So putting your dog in a crate is not gonna help. It's, yeah. And it is that it is. Let your dog cry it out. So

Oh gosh.

sadly, this would, this also used to be practice with children,

It did. Yeah.

Yeah. And when they said, you know, if you pick a baby up who's crying, they, they'll be spoiled or something like that. In fact, I experienced it that when I had my daughter, people were telling me not to. Not to to that, but we know now that the distress that that causes can be so extreme. That can even cause neurological damage

Hmm.

it goes strong enough.

Yeah.

And if it happens once or more, it's traumatizing.

Hmm.

How could it not be if, if you are crying for help? I

Yeah.

somebody stuck me in a room with, with poisonous vipers I was just screaming and screaming. Some dogs have actually, for example, they lost their voice. They can't their voice is damaged from trying to Yeah. Or they hurt

Oh God.

Escape, yeah.

Yeah.

dogs cried out. That's another thing that least, actually, what did I put out in here? Using food is a big one. That's what I had also with my dog. Stevie is said, give him a Kong or something. With that is had a client who tried that because they were advised to do that and they give him, so before they left, they would come with a treat or a chew or something and took exactly two days and they could no longer feed their dog. dog was terrified of the food.

Oh God. They poisoned the food. Yeah. Yeah. That cue.

the cue.

Hmm.

the dog immediately realized, I mean, it's classical Pavlov, isn't it? This conditioning that. He is, it's the same with us. If somebody, if somebody gave me some amisu and then gave me an electric shock or something, I would be very wary about. I. And every time I looked at a tumor masu, I would think about that pain. And it's no different for our dogs two days and she could no longer feed her dog. The dog was

Wow.

Yeah. When she

Gosh.

The

Yeah.

is of dogs are interested in the food and they're chewing or they may be interested in the Kong and they're then they will at some point suddenly realize they're alone and go from being presumably calm to a panic attack and immediately, which we

Mm.

I mean, that serves nobody and your dog is not going to teach them anything,

No. Yeah. Brilliant.

sorry. Did you want to say something?

no. Go on.

So allied to that, which is is, is the idea that people have been told, to distract their dog, give them, maybe get them something to eat or whatever, but to leave without them noticing.

Yeah.

So what does the dog learn from that? They learn, they've been tRiggsed

Yeah.

learn, they're losing trust

Mm

And the worst of it is, is that they become hypervigilant. You can see dogs who are very, very, very on every movement that

mm.

caregiver, because they are having to rhyme together the, intention to what's what's. What's this person going to do? They got up off of the sofa? Are they leaving? Are they not leaving? If they're leaving, are they taking me with them?

Mm.

is of the dog and they're in permanent suspense. Yeah.

Yeah.

I used to theater director. Right. And they, the the definition of suspense is that, you know, something's gonna happen, but you don't know when

Mm-hmm.

this is the situation the dog is in. at some point when your person is moving, they're leaving,

Mm-hmm.

know what So you alert permanent tension. Yeah. So that's, that's predictability is so important. So I'm

Yeah.

Man of using a signal, a safe signal so that your dog knows that when I say this, when I show you I use this a lot and it's been a game changer for a lot of dogs. It's really predictable. Makes your moves predictable when you're doing that. So, so another myth is to make things unpredictable. I've had a client who came to me from a very famous franchise and they were told to make things as unpredictable for their dog as possible. That means leaving through different doors if you happen to have different doors, front doors, back doors, side doors, any kind of door, but don't make it the same. And and to go for arbitrary lengths of climb. So that didn't work either because the dog has nothing to get a on. Whereas we. our training, we are building up very in very tiny increments of very safe ritual,

Mm-hmm.

actually the dogs after a while though it is to find quite boring, right? So that, oh, we're doing that again. Okay. So half an hour of just you walking backwards and forwards and but they learn when I give this predictable signal, it's going to be boring and it is boring. And I know that most trainers very proud brightly of motivating a dog to do something.

Yeah.

am very proud that I can very effectively bore a dog. That's, yeah. So, yeah. What else have we got on the there's so many, unfortunately.

That's okay.

Your dog sleep on your bed, that causes separate No, it doesn't. End off, it does not. People come up with these things though, isn't it

I know people just suddenly think they're an expert, so Yeah.

and then a lot of peoples think that their dog has, has separation fears when they follow them around in the house all the time. But I read recently somewhere that I think 64% of dogs who follow you around in the house don't have separation issues. A tool,

Yeah. I've got some that do that to me. Yeah.

but

Yeah,

and they, it's either they just want to be with us,

they do.

which.

just wanna be with you,

I just wanna be with you. It'd be awful if they didn't really. And sometimes I have found that people have it,

right?

by mistake. Yeah. So that couldn't be something that maybe people got into habit of going kitchen, making some food, just sort of dropping bits of food or just reinforcing it. You know, which

Yeah.

good the dog, because they're always sort of looking whether something's gonna happen and they don't get a lot of rest. But yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, this was a story. People are told that if your dog greets you calmly when you come home, or they assume that if your dog greets you calmly when you get home, they had no problems while you were out.

Oh,

awesome.

okay.

Yeah. That, that's quite a per pernicious I have to tell you a story. This is a sad story, but a trainer colleague of mine had a dog who had came, come to her for many, many years for sort of nose work and fun stuff. And, you know, there wasn't really a problem and she knew the family really well. one day the family put up a camera in the house for a reason, which had nothing to do with the dog. And they discovered that when they were at work during the day, the dog was pacing around the sitting room, up the stairs, around the landing, down the stairs, around the sitting room up the stairs and around the landing all day.

Looking for them.

No, it, they, the dog had developed an obsessive behaviour to deal with the fear. 'Cause you

Okay.

have ability to cope. And in that time, the dog didn't sleep, the dog didn't drink anything.

Oh

and when the family came home, the dog greeted them totally. Normally.

yeah. Hmm.

So

Interesting.

then, I said, don't make any assumptions until you put up a camera in

Yeah.

house. Yeah. Because you, you really don't know. Some dogs greet people calmly. Some are a bit more, more full on as we, as we know, but that we can't, we can't know how they were doing when we

Yeah.

from, from that. Yeah.

Yeah.

We've, yeah. We talked about keys and jackets and shoes and. That is actually taught a lot of trainers. It has been taught over many, many years. And it seems logical because chronologically, that's the first thing we're doing. And

Mm

thing that dog may get upset about. Say, you know, oh, you're getting your keys. But actually, if we think about it logically from the dog's point of view, they're not actually afraid usually of the keys or the jacket or the shoes. They're afraid of you leaving.

mm.

So if we, if we solve that problem first

Yeah.

'cause what's the point? First of all, what's the point of practicing something which is unnecessary?

Mm.

'cause you may find when your dog is happy with you being away of a while, that they're not too bothered. About the keys or something, because it's just a signal for something that terrible is gonna happen at the moment.

Mm

but the worst thing is that we're actually making it worse, because if we do that, we're just triggering the fear.

mm

triggering a fear response over and over and over again. The dog is going, you know, are you leaving? Oh, you're not leaving? Okay, are you leaving?

Yeah.

Imagine?

Oh, it's Tim. Yeah. You're kind of getting them, you know, you're getting 'em worked out, but then you're not, then you are, then you're, they're just in a constant state of franticness and over arousal,

Yeah. I mean,

not.

is that? In actual fact, thinking about it that way, if you wanted to torment a dog, that would be a

Oh, God.

of doing it, you know, which is so

I mean, I can see the point, but obviously, yeah, I can see the, what you're saying. You've gotta work with a dog in front of you every time.

Yeah. I mean some people say they have success with that, then, but I always think, well if, your dog's problem is the leaving, if you solve that first,

Mm-hmm.

may not do all that

Yeah.

with

Yeah,

And I'm a great fan of not having to do training. You don't have to do, you know, what's the, point in spending all that time really?

Yeah. All right.

yeah. So there are only two more I think I had on my little list.

Okay.

One more. It is just arbitrary times. It is like okay. Well the way to deal with this, you get this on Facebook a lot, is go out five minutes today and go out 10 minutes tomorrow. And I have a friend who is terrified of traveling in a lift. And if I said to her, well, don't worry, we'll sort this out. We're gonna put you in a lift today for five minutes. I'm gonna put you in a lift tomorrow for 10 minutes. Yeah. She'd probably have a nervous breakdown of

Yeah.

of it.

Yeah,

So, yeah, these are things that, you know, they sound good in a way, but if you look at them closer Yeah. so many of them aren't there? They're,

it's, yeah, it's ridiculous.

they're probably many more. Have you got,

Yeah, I'm, no, I'm sure. I think you've covered some that I wouldn't have even thought of. So there was some that. You know, I did think of, but moving on to our next question then we have sort of touched on it a little bit. But why is tough love in inverted commas, why is the tough love approach so harmful in these cases?

Well if you mean the tough love is like letting them cry it out, let's,

think so, yeah.

It sort of close the door behind you and they will get used to it, you know? Well, we are talking about a serious fear here. Yeah.

mm.

so if you close the door on your dog and let them just cry it out, or it may not take that form, they might try to escape. They might plant frantically or things or get Frantic in, in any sort of way. That is traumatizing. It, it actually, it really needs to happen once if it's extreme. But you do that a couple of times and you have a traumatized dog. I don't know what else to say about it really. There, there's another myth actually that I haven't got on my list, but I should put it on afterwards, is, and trainers teach people, teach people this. I think it's really sad. If your dog is barking in the house, don't come in until they've stopped. So dog is having a panic attack how can they possibly understand they're not gonna help them?

Yeah.

they're totally dependent on us, aren't they?

Yeah.

I always think of myself being in a room with vipers or something. If I was screaming for help and somebody was standing, I knew somebody was standing outside the door and they're waiting for.

It's not gonna happen.

would I dunno whether this is the same, but not only would would I not understand that, I'd be so, so angry and upset

Mm

afraid.

Mm

So no. So in, in training our home alone training, we don't even want to get to that stage, do we?

No.

nothing to be said for tough love at all.

Yeah.

now even in, in, well, not even, but in human relations, we know that love shouldn't hurt.

Mm.

Should it,

No.

it should not.

Yeah.

so for me, there's not, there's no such thing as tough love.

Mm

be tough, but then it's not love. We need compassion and knowledge,

mm

so. To say it again, I've said it again, but I'll probably repeat it every 10 minutes. We can help these dogs so effectively, so why torment them

Yeah.

make things worse?

Yeah. And I,

No,

yeah, and I think we said with the tough love, the quiet out method you mentioned about the neurological effects it could have, so that's how it could be quite harmful, couldn't it?

Yeah. Yeah. Well, of course

Yeah.

a neurological thing. Any anyway. But yes, I mean, it can really, really serious cause physical damage as well as,

Mm-hmm.

as psychological damage. You can't really separate them at that

Mm. All right, so our next question is, what are the dangers of trying to shortcut essay recovery with gadgets or gimmicks? Rosee I,

yeah, well, the first danger is that it's not going to be a shortcut. It's gonna make everything much worse and much longer.

that's what I thought. Yeah.

at that point of view you know, don't do it to yourself, nevermind you're a dog, yeah, we just touched on the, on the food thing, but if you have a fear being given something nice to eat is not gonna help. Because fear is, comes from a lack of safety, doesn't it? If, if you don't feel safe, then you're not interested in food. So if, I think what you mean by gadgets is some of these automatic treat machines or

yes. Yeah. Like treat and feed and or something, or what's it called? Yeah, the automatic ones. Yeah.

dunno what I, I've never used one, so I, I don't know whether they kind of, they just throw out treats, regular intervals or whether you kind of operate it from afar. But basically the one thing has nothing to do with the other. If, your dog has a fear, then we need to help them recover from that fear, that means analog to the way that humans, I believe, are treated for fear issues. In human psychology, we call it gradual exposure therapy, I think. in dog training, we, we tend to call it desensitization. I think one of the most difficult things for a caregiver to get the head round at first is that. In order to, to get over a fear, you've gotta do things. You've gotta break down the process of leaving into such tiny, tiny amount so you're not triggering the fear. And instead, because it is a neurological as you, the dog is sort of and it's can say, I can do that, that's not a problem. I can do that. And so the training is really setting up situation where your dog is able to say or to think or to feel, I can do that over and over and over again. If you think about it, and I have a little poster actually on my social media about this. It's a bit counterintuitive, but we have to practice what the dog can do and not what they can't do. Right. If you are practicing, they can't do, they're gonna be practicing. I can't do this, I can't do this, I can't cope. And that's not gonna help anybody. Whether they're getting treats thrown at them outta the machine or are there any other kind of gadgets people use? Apart from rates, of course that's, could, you could say that's a gadget.

Yeah, I guess like maybe like the cameras, they speak to him through the camera and stuff like that.

Oh yeah. Okay. Yeah. Well, as far as I know, doctors are spread that confusing and it's not the same as social support, is

mm-hmm.

I mean, dogs are incredibly emotionally wise, aren't they? They have

Mm

emotional intelligence.

mm

I. I don't think that a sort of a voice coming from many, gonna have it much of an effect on, far as I know, people who have tried it say their dogs are just confused.

mm

not teaching them a skill we have to remember, what we need to do is not to just stop behaviours that we can

mm

because dogs are trying to relieve themselves from fear. That's what the behaviours are that we're seeing, aren't they? You know, if dogs are, are barking, whining, drooling panting or whatever they're doing, they're trying to, their body is trying to relieve them from this

mm. Mm-hmm. What's your thought? Go on.

no. I mean, that's, that's not gonna happen by by giving them which have not, not to do with us. They need our support and.

Mm. Yeah, they need that connection. What's your thoughts on white noise then, or playing Alexa of relaxing, calming dog music.

Well there, there is separation anxiety is often accompanied as a comorbidity thing with a sound sensitivity.

Mm.

And,

I.

we, we can help a dog with noise. Or a sound music or something. recommend using I dunno much about Alexa to be honest, but I don't recommend using sort of the, the TV or radio because you can't, you don't know what they're gonna play. You dunno whether they're gonna suddenly fireworks or a a report from a war where there are shots and stuff like that. Amazing how often also sort of like radio drama and stuff play in dog barking as a sound effect. Right. I, I think the idea behind that is, is trying to keep your dog company,

mm

I don't think that it's the same as the treat machines or the voices or anything. I think that a dog knows whether, whether it is true connection. I love that word that you use. That's really what we're looking for is connection, or whether it is just, you know something automated.

Okay. Okay. I've got another question for you, another myth, I dunno if we're gonna cover it, but I'm just gonna throw it out there now that getting another dog will help your SA dog. Mm-hmm.

well, I'm, I know people who have done that. They have got a and it has helped. I have however.

The other dog could end up with it. He got two then.

Yeah, I'm getting to that. The thing is, it doesn't work very, it doesn't usually work, right? So it is not something that we recommend. You can definitely then have two dogs with separation problems. But even if it does, if it does work, it's often a dog maybe who has lost a companion another dog in the family has died or something. And of course that sort of relief is, is great and no, that helps 'em. But the fact is that they haven't really learned a new skill they using the other dog is as a helper, which is fine. I mean, obviously any kind of relief in this situation is fine, but you

Mm

taught your dog anything through, most of the time it doesn't work, so we don't recommend it. If

Yeah.

a second dog, then get a second dog, but I would only do that if you. If you yeah, if you want a second dog. And it's also good, really good for your, your family situation and for the dog that you already have.

Yeah. Brilliant. Just thought I'd throw that one out there. So let's move on to our next section, which is all about social media influencers and well-meaning advice.

Yeah.

What role, Rosee, do you think social media plays in keeping these myths alive?

Well, unfortunately, I think, I think it has quite an, an effect. It does because it reaches so many people and

Hmm.

it taps into something which is absolutely understandable. Understandable. That has to be said. If you, if you have a, a dog with these problems, then. Then it is very distressing. It's an enormous burden. You can't leave your house. You're seeing your dog in distress. Your entire life is probably governed by this for, for a while. So I think on social media can tap into the wish to deal with this as quickly as possible. And if I'm, which I have been, you know, into groups saying I am a specialist in this, can help your dog. It's not a quick, it will take a few months, but then you have a dog who's truly chilled and not just tolerating me, which I actually think is not a very long time to get over, you know, such a fear. But then you maybe have somebody else that they say, well, we put our dog in a crate. And that sorted that out. So, or we got a dog and that sorted that out. And so understand that people think, okay, well we'll try that first. 'cause that seems like the easiest option, but they may not recognize the implications of all that.

Mm.

but yeah, it, it's, it's something that, it's really very difficult. You see this going on all the time and, and people are very unwilling to accept however nicely one puts, well, I wouldn't do this, you know, because this people probably, we have this confirmation bias, don't we? We, if we believe or hope enough that something really simple and easy is gonna deal with it, and it's sometimes difficult to. Get outta that and or however, the tragic thing is that if you actually do this, if you do get professional guidance and you know how to do it, you know, just for several weeks, so you know how to do this without making all the mistakes then you actually really do have a dog who is chilled at home and oh, is in the, in the long run, quicker than anything, than doing it wrong. Is it?

I think with SA though, unlike other behaviour modification, that it isn't, there isn't a quick fix. It does take time, and I don't think, you know, right, or rightly or wrongly, people really understand that it can take time and they want quick fixes, but it, you know, you have to invest that time in order to get to the end goal.

Yeah, but half an hour a day, five days a week seems to be the sweet spot. And,

Mm.

and I have you know, some dog dogs, it's a bit more complex. Sometimes it, it takes a bit longer for various reasons, but usually, actually that is because there are other stressors in the so, you know, getting a professional, for example, has a holistic training. Right? I, I don't mean kind of woo woo. I mean, looking at the whole doc, we can sometimes magic for that dog just by very simple changes. Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

A dog who, if for example a dog who does better with a, with another door or a dog who, I know a dog who was incredibly hyper and rushing around like a maniac and not sleeping at all. realized that they were doing much, much, this is tiny dog going like a Yorkie mix, I think was kind of bashing about the dog park for four hours a day and completely all over the place. And when, when we sort of switched, just switched to kind of sniffy walks instead and that sort of stuff, dog started sleeping a lot better, which means they're self-regulating better. And it's quite interesting actually because back to what you were sort of saying about s sound sensitivity, was a dog. We actually also did use some music for it because they were incredibly sounds. They, this dog would bark at everything. The neighbors outside the, the interesting thing was. And I have discovered this with a lot of dogs that during the training, the home alone training, one of the lovely side effects of it is, is that the dog learns to self-regulate better. And this dog, by the time that they got up to an hour and a half or something, would, you could see the, the dog sort of saying, oh, there's something I used to bark at. I don't have to be bothered with that anymore. and this dog literally stopped barking at anything for one rock, Viola who used to come by garden in the evening once day. Nobody knows how he knew this dog was coming, but he would bark at him, but then he could get himself out of it and recover really quickly. And that's a huge shift, you know? So we said, okay, he can bark at the rot viol. He was, but he didn't bark at anything else. How amazing is that? Right?

Yeah.

Yeah, so it's quite interesting when you sort of think about the, the white noise side of things and all that. This can be really helpful. But the most helpful thing is, is helping the dog learn to think and self-regulate. And that's

Hmm.

lovely side effect of this training I found, I found sort of just by observation in the last years.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Good. How can guardians spot the difference between good advice and unqualified opinion online? Rosee.

I dunno, you're gonna help me with this.

Well, I just think everyone thinks they're an experts just because like they've had dogs for 30 years. It doesn't mean, you know, that's what I think, you know, I'd, I'd go, I'd be thinking along the lines.

I know you have to. Well, I think we have

Avoid all these, avoid all these myths that we've mentioned.

Avoid all the myths. I think the most important thing really to capture to the chase is if you, if your dog has this problem, you need to get professional help. You need somebody

Yes.

a specialist in this. You really do, because somebody called this this issue is Fears a behavioural emergency. It is a behavioural emergency because of the amount of distress it causes your dog. If your dog has a broken leg, you're not going to say, oh, I'll deal with it sometime, you know, maybe

To the,

week. Yeah. And you are also not going to go to your neighbor and say, or somebody on Facebook say, can you tell me how to mend my dog's leg? Right. I mean, nobody would think about that. That is an emergency. You need to go to the clinic as fast as you can,

yeah.

any other kind of emergency. And so treat this as a behavioural emergency, which means urgent and you need somebody who knows what they're doing. then it really doesn't always take that long. Yes, it takes a little bit of patience and precision,

Mm.

it's not gonna take as long as if you don't do it. And it's not gonna take as long if you do it wrong. Yeah.

Yeah.

As far as the internet and bad information that we, we are all confronted with it in so many different spheres.

Mm.

Figure out a way. And I think also being fair and open is one of them. I did, I don't do this very often, but I did venture recently in a group, actually it was a, a German language group. And somebody came up with whatever they came, one of these myths, I can't really remember what it was now, but I think it was putting a dog in a crate or something. And I said, I am a specialist in separation anxiety. And you need a, a well executed process of desensitization. It's the only thing will help. And then somebody came back with, well, you are a specialist. That's amazing. It's amazing what what you can be a specialist for these days.

Oh gosh.

Well, a against that kind of stubbornness and stupidity if you like, you know, it's quite difficult to, yeah, it is quite difficult. But also there are really good organizations now who who are certifying. We, we belong to organizations which certify that we are force free. And I know it's difficult 'cause it's an unregulated industry and, and every anybody can claim to be force free and do all sorts of stuff. we do now have our certified separation anxiety pro behaviour consultant, which is what you and I both are. And,

Yeah.

we. For that. I mean, that, that, that was a, a really intensive and comprehensive training and

it was,

Yeah.

yeah. So, so seek out a professional is what I took from that. And I like behavioural emergencies, so seek out a professional. Don't go on to the local Facebook community Queens. Which actually might answer our next question because it's, what do you wish people knew before searching for advice on Google or Instagram?

Well, they need to know that this is a behavioural emergency and it's not just I had a wonderful client actually, and she was trained to be a dog trainer, and she was, she was really lovely person, but even she, when her dog started doing this or she adopted her dog, she thought that her dog just didn't like being at home. On her own. She didn't realize until she came to me the depth of this distress and the fear. So I think the really important thing is to take it seriously, isn't it? And you

Yeah.

take this seriously and find a professional and you know,

Brilliant.

then

Right?

it's the quickest way, isn't it?

Yeah. Alright, so moving on to our next section, which is the truth. What actually helps, so what actually helps dogs with sa, especially those that seem stuck in panic mode?

Okay. Well the first thing, the first challenge that antibody has when they recognize that their dog is distressed on their own, is doing what we call managing absences.

Mm.

that means effectively getting yourself a support network people that your dog feels comfortable with and investing a bit of time. You know, you can't just hand the lead to someone and say, okay, my dog feels comfortable. They may, you know, some dogs cope very well with being with other people, but you might have to build that up. Just like some children struggle a bit to be left at kindergarten and they need to be to be left at kindergarten and they need a bit of time to get used to it. Really good dog sitter or a dog walker will also be quite empathetic about how they take the dog. You know, some dogs are really helped by. If they go around the block together and the caregiver leaves maybe in the car and says goodbye and go, and dog setter goes in with a dog and spares the dogs the, the business of their caregiver actually leaving. That helps a lot of those times. She's changing, changing the ritual as you

Mm

looking for, you know, how, what can I do to make this as easy as possible for my dog?

Yeah.

managing absences is the first thing because obviously the more often you put your dog through a fear episode, the worse you're going to make the whole situation. And in the end it's traumatizing. You'll have a traumatized dog. Also fear generalizes really quickly. You can start with one fear. And then you find that your dog is becoming increasingly anxious and wary and even fearful in other situations. So we really don't wanna go there. So once

Hmm.

if your own sanity you need a support network because otherwise you really are a prisoner in your own home.

Yeah.

then, and then we start the process of desensitization. It's really breaking down the process of leaving through the door then outside the door into tiny increments. And I find that the long work is often the door. And once got outside the door and the dog is truly chilled, you know, we can't push them beyond what they can do, then we start building up the time and yeah, that's thrilling. And we celebrate that, don't we? We celebrate. Every step of the way, because that is one more step towards your dog being able to live without fear.

Yeah, yeah,

yeah, so that's basically it, isn't it? I mean, if you

yeah.

which takes a little bit of organization perhaps, but it doesn't also have to be very expensive if you are creative with maybe swapping dog sitting or whatever, and then starting a process of desensitization under the guidance of a professional until you know how to do it and you're not making mistakes,

Mm.

worse.

For brilliant.

Yeah.

No, no worries. So we should always celebrate the small wins along the way no matter how small. But why is consistency more powerful than intensity when it comes to SA recovery? Rosee a z.

Well, do you, if you mean intensity, do you mean do you mean doing things quickly

Yeah, just like in like really intensifying and like, you know, throwing the kitchen, sink it or whatever, and just hoping for the best. I think you have to do, you have to be more consistent with it and just break it down into small bite-sized chunks. Like you said, like five days a week, half an hour a day, but rather than going too mad, you need to take it back a bit and be more consistent.

Yeah. we've talked about pre predictability,

Yeah.

important for the dogs. So something that happens sort of five times a week or every, every day. Well, this, we do all sorts of weird things and that our dogs sort of. Put up with that. So we just kind of start this, what I call a safe ritual. What we're actually really doing with our training is establishing in your dog's life a safe ritual where they say, oh, we're doing that boring thing again today. Okay, I know about that I can do that. And so we are doing that we are thinking about leaving. But our dog I think experiences it as our coming back. What we're actually practicing is when I move, even if it's just standing up and sitting down and so forth. I'm coming back, I'm coming back, I'm coming back. There's also something go back to. John Bradshaw, I read his book on defensive dogs all that time ago when I was trying to help my Greyhound, and he said that we need to help our dogs understand that we are coming back. We are always thinking about leaving, but they need to know what comes back,

That's a good point.

It is a bit of a sort of sideline, but I think this is very interesting. There's more and more thought about, not necessarily pathologizing, is that the word? separation anxiety, you know, to think it's like some, some kind of massive aberration. But actually if we think about it, we've taken a species into our homes, another species. And this species, the dog is incredibly adaptable, but they delegated their survival to us. And when we close the door, how are they supposed to know that we are ever coming back at all,

Hmm

or if we are coming back

Hmm.

or if

Yeah. Yeah.

with his. Our training, we can teach dogs that we are coming back and they do learn it brilliantly. noticed that there are different kinds of intensities with the clients. I've been doing this now for nearly five years, pretty much exclusively. I do locally at some o other things, but sort of on the and I have noticed that some dogs do in fact really, really have a trauma. Yeah, they have been shut in. I had a client whose dog had been shut in as a puppy and a young dog by a man who used to leave on business trips for several days at a time leaving the dog in the house. Okay, so when the dog was 18 months old, he was confiscated from this person and this dog was traumatized. Okay. So that's one scenario. And

I may.

those sort of dogs, often need to work together with a vet, a little bit of anxiety medication to help to help that dog have some kind of comfort zone. Sort of. are doing the training, but even that dog learned as well. Yeah. But there are other dogs who, and you can't seem to tell this, I can't tell, tell beforehand. You get a dog who's incredibly distressed and, and really upset and all over the place, and you start the training and they take to it like a duck to water. And they're like in, in a few weeks time, the, the caregivers outside the door. I'm like, I thought your dog has separation anxiety that. It can happen or I'm, I'm not saying this happens in five days. Right. But like to get outside the door in say a month or six weeks rock solid. Yeah. Without your dog reacting. The way they did to me that it was simply something the dog needed to learn a skill that we need to prioritize, like toilet training. That is also quite delicate because people have started and that's very praiseworthy to try and prevent it happening. And that means that often, you know, they have a puppy or they've just adopted a dog from a shelter. Like I have, you know, spent six years in, in a shopper and, and then, oh, we need to practice leaving. So we are leaving. And, may be in a phase where your dog needs more support, right? So sometimes you need a little bit of a fine feeling about what, how to go about it with this particular dog, which is another reason for getting professional,

Yeah.

differentiate these scenarios. Yeah, I mean, in, in all the years I've been doing this now, I've never had a dog where the caregivers have done the training, who hasn't learned to feel safe alone at home. I, I know that's

Yeah.

study. It's a study one. but up to now touch wood, is, it's very successful. So why not? not do that for your dog?

Yeah. Brilliant. Moving on to our final section then, which is just about reframing the Guardian's role. How can we help people reframe the emotional rollercoaster of supporting an anxious dog?

I'm glad you mentioned that because sometimes the care, caregiver is, is in a terrible situation. It's, it's a hell of a shock when you realize that your dog can't be on their own. I've been there, I know what it's like. it takes a lot of organization. It's an organizational burden, if you like. This, going back to Stevie, my Greyhound, he couldn't even stay with anybody else at first. luckily he was sort of safe in, he felt safe in the car, and I was very privileged. I, I was teaching at a university so I could organize my teaching time into blocks. I was teaching for two hours and then I would take him for a walk, but it was minus 20. It was a incredibly cold winter here, I had wrapped. This is not something I would actually advise him with. I had had him wrapped in a greyhound fleece and then a deer hound fleece over the top of and he felt safe in the car. So that was, you know, okay, it's not ideal, but it was the only option. But I know what I, I lost a lot of weight rushing around from teaching to the car to homes and taking the dogs out from car, Coming back to that. I mean, it is a huge thing. So we need to have a lot of compassion for the caregivers ze compassion for themselves. It's a really good idea not to bombard them. With myths we're talking about like, you know, it's all your fault you didn't leave your, let your dog sleep on the bed. If you weren't spoiling your dog, if you weren't saying goodbye to your dog, if you weren't ignoring if you would only ignore your dog when you come back and all the, all the we through today and the caregiver knows in instinctively, that's not gonna help. My dog is in terrible the stress. So they, they may feel guilty on top of everything else. Yeah,

Hmm.

definitely not do that. And then I, I do recommend setting up a support network, get yourself support by people who understand, not the people who are saying, just leave them. of, if you could say, I know your dog has a serious fear you are helping them get over it. Well done

mm

Yeah.

mm.

I have a client, I had a client recently just left recently for all the best reasons 'cause they're really successful. They tried for five years. Yeah,

Mm.

mentioned at the beginning. Five, five years. So

Yeah.

incredibly dedicated. And also they're under a lot of pressure. You can be, for example the butt of neighbor's complaints, even court cases. If your dog has

Yeah,

you can be under pressure from the landlord that if you don't sort this problem out, you're going to lose home.

yeah, yeah.

Had that. I've, I've had caregivers come to me who are absolutely distraught. It's so to reframe it, it's not your fault. And

mm

thing is we can reliably help your dog with the right

Yeah.

And I think that's really cool. And that's why I'm so passionate about it. You asked me right at the beginning, so passionate about educating Miss? That's why does Miss make it worse for everybody, for the dog and the caregiver?

Definitely. What would be your advice for someone who feels like they've tried everything in inverted comm?

Well, they've probably been trying all the things that make it worse.

Mm.

I dunno, it's very difficult to say because if, if you mean that they've been to lots of different trainers who have given them the wrong advice, then all I can say is I'm terribly sorry that that has happened to you and that you are experiencing this.

Yeah.

but it's unlikely that they have tried a, a very well done process of desensitization

Mm

if it's done correctly, there is no reason that their dog should be exempt from natural laws. They, their dog can learn this just like every other dog can.

mm

So

Yeah.

I, I would say is that try this, try the way we do

Yeah,

I'm really sorry. They've been through a lot of a, a lot of bad advice, most likely. You know,

yeah, yeah.

the other

All.

takes it, I think it's really, it's really important. I think one of the reasons that I have a lot of success is because I have a lot of experience in general with, with anxious and fearful dogs. Dogs from a deprivation background, traumatized dogs, and so, so on. So one of the things that can be holding your dog back when you think you're, you're doing everything but it's not working, are other stressors, right? So the, so we need to really look at the whole dog all the time.

Mm.

dog is just separation and anxiety on legs. There can be other things playing into this, like pain issues.

Yeah.

Help lots of dogs get help for un undiagnosed pain issues. For example a a client recently had discovered that their dog is barking a lot because it distracts them from the pain.

Yeah. Yeah.

so look at this. I think we mentioned that the dog where we changed the way they were being exercised, so they're not sort of doing this high octane or high arousal exercise for four hours in the dog park. But those of sniffy walks, sometimes very small changes make an enormous difference to, a dog. Looking at dog's, body language.

Definitely.

at the moment who found, you know, tried everything and their dog was incredibly restless. I said, we have to take this. Know this is just something he does. He's sort of this with his face and it's just, and he's doing something strange with his mouth and, it's just something he does. But then I said, I don't think this is just something he does. He's got a reason for this. And we discovered, after much soul searching and going apart from the fact that he did have pain issues, he also had ingrowing eyelashes.

Okay. Yeah,

And which apparently is, is in certain breeds a, a thing

I, I only heard about that the other day actually.

Yeah. Particularly adolescents, right? And this dog is sort of coming up to adolescents and, and it was like, oh, you'll have to operate. And, and they found this brilliant eye specialist who says, no, we, we don't operate on this. I can help you. And that, that is also really, really I important. If you've tried everything, really, everything, either you are following the wrong advice, probably you, you have been given the wrong advice. Or to look more closely also at your dogs, other needs and stresses where we can take away anything that stresses your dog unnecessarily. We are giving them back more resources

Mm

think clearly, to learn, to self-regulate,

mm

to live a more relaxed life, right?

Yeah. Brilliant. Gosh, we've literally sailed through this episode. It literally, it's been jam packed full of information like it is. Oh, my mind's buzzing. So we're just gonna spend the next couple of minutes wrapping up before we bring it to a close. So a final question for you, Rosee. What's the one myth you wish we could wipe off the internet forever?

Well, it is difficult to choose one because if

So many.

Yeah. Well, no, because it, whatever, whatever myth you, you are following, you are damaging your dog, right? So,

Mm

but I think if I had to choose one, it would definitely be not creating your dog. The reason it's illegal in Austria, not, not not only in Austria, by the way, more and more countries are making this illegal, even if you're at home by the way is because it is not no longer considered really adequate welfare.

Mm.

'cause dogs are polyphasic sleepers. So, one of the five free freedoms, I think is the freedom to practice natural behaviour. And dog will sleep in phases and move around. Everybody sees this for their dog. They move around during, you know, between phases. They they do that also for temperature regulation and they can only get into deep restorative. Sleep, this sort of REM sleep, I think when they're to stretch their paws out flat. So, there are various reasons why it's illegal here to keep your dog in a crate it's the purposes of a medical recovering from a medical procedure or for travel safety. But it also, I think this is something that people don't think about very much. I prevents your dog really learning the skills they need to live in your home. Yeah. And if, if you need to, if you have, for example, a puppy and you need to keep them safe for certain times or you haven't got that, your eyes on them all the time, it's really better to use a puppy pan or to puppy proof a room.

Mm,

And yeah, so I think it's, it is probably the crate, but the crate is also allied to everything else. It's allied to the, the idea of letting them cry it out. Just putting them in there and

using it as a punishment.

yeah. Or, or,

Hmm.

just our own convenience. I mean, yes, it may stop the dog taking the flat apart or your sofa apart, just think of what that dog's actually going through. Yeah.

Okay. Brilliant. Alright, so Rosee, where can people connect with you? Join your group or access your training?

Well, they can, the, the best way really is to go to my website. I have a shiny new website.

You do?

Good dog practice come. I said, I can't even remember what I, what the name of my business is now. Good Dog Practice come.

Yeah.

and that is to separation fears. So that's the easiest way because from there you can also find your, your way to me on Facebook or on Instagram and something really exciting. It's just the first person to hear about this. Hot off the press is that

Yes.

been invited Libe Bog Deva, who is the founder and director of the Nordic Center for Ethical Dog Training Lead a forum to host a forum in her care community. There's a care community of trainers and dog owners who can ask questions and support each other. It's an incredibly knowledgeable group, and in there I have like a forum about separation fears where I can answer questions. But we

Yeah.

also really to define that I can only answer very general questions, but people who want to work with me then do get very generous rebates on my programs. So I think we, it'll pop the links below.

yes. Yeah, the links would be in the show notes.

Yeah, a student who did this, who used to be a model actually, and an acting student used to be a model and he would always, he would always say the links below.

Yeah, so, oh yeah, all the links will be in the show notes and they'll be on the Yappy website as well, so we'll make sure they're all included and they'll be on the various platforms. Rosee Riggss, thank you so much for joining me on the Yappy Hour, powered by Yappily. I've absolutely loved our conversation today, and I'm sure our listeners will as well. Thank you for your time.

Thank you so

Thank you so much.

Thank you.

You're most welcome.

so many dogs and people. Thank you

Oh, you're most welcome. Thank you very much. Hot.

so.

That was such a brilliant and empowering chat with Rosee Riggs. Here are some key takeaways from today's episode. Number one, separation anxiety is not your fault and it's not something you can fix with crates, cameras, or quick fixes. Number two, most quick tips online. Don't work and can make things worse. Compassion, patience, and evidence-based training are key. Number three, you don't need to be perfect. You just need to be consistent. Progress over perfection every time. Number four. Qualified support can be a game changer. You don't have to do it alone. Rosee. Thank you for challenging the myths and giving people permission to support their dogs with empathy, not shame. If you'd like to learn more, please check out. Good dog practice.com or find Rosee's community on Facebook and Instagram. And if this episode has helped you, please consider leaving a review, subscribe and share it with someone who's navigating life with an anxious dog. This has been the yappy hour, and I'll see you next time.