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Jen: Welcome to the So That's
Why podcast, where we unpack the

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science behind everyday questions.

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I'm Jen.

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Chris: I'm Chris.

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Jamie: And I'm Jamie.

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Jen: Okay.

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So picture two people lying on the same
beach, the same hour, under the same sun.

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One gets up golden brown.

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The other one gets rough- gets up, and
they are roughly the color of a tomato.

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So why do some people
tan while others don't?

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Jamie: I'll be up front.

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I'm one of the annoying ones.

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I go brown just by walking out of the car.

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Chris, though, I think you're a
tomato in this scenario, aren't you?

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Chris: Well, I've been called
worse, let's be honest.

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But no, you- you're
absolutely right, yeah.

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Two minutes of weak British
sunshine, and I'm lightly poached.

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And here's the part that most
people don't understand enough.

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So whether you can tan at all is
really not about the sun or how hard

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you try, it's down to your genes, and
it's settled before you were even born

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Jen: Yeah, and that's the bit that
surprised me the most because we

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treat tanning like a skill that
you build up over a summer, but

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you either can do it or you can't,
and trying harder changes nothing.

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But we'll get to how that works later.

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Jamie: Before we do,
can I check something?

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I've heard people s- something
that I've heard people swear by for

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years, the idea of a base tan, the
idea being that some people go on

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a sunbed before they go on holiday-

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Jen: Mm

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… 
Jamie: so that they don't burn
when they're out on their holiday.

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Is, is there anything in that?

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Jen: Well, it's worth being, you
know, fair to it because it isn't a

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total myth, but it might as well be.

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So a tan, it does add a
little bit of protection.

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It's just nowhere near as
much as people imagine.

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Chris: Yeah, you're absolutely right,
and in sun protection we talk about

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SPF, which is the sun protection factor.

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So a tan is worth an SPF of two to four.

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Jen: Mm.

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Chris: So a tanned you therefore,
um, being two to four times better

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protected than an untanned you.

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But let's be honest, the lowest SPF that
anyone would ever sensibly recommend as

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meaningful is about 15 or, or higher.

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So SPF two to four is pointless.

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It's like holding a single sheet
of paper over your head in a

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downpour and hoping for the best.

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Jamie: So you'll still get soaked,
but you feel like you've tried.

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Jen: Yeah.

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Absolutely.

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Pretty much.

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I remember growing up in the '80s and they
sold factor two and factor four in shops.

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Do you remember that?

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I

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Chris: do.

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It was like in carrot oil or olive oil-

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Jen: Yeah

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… 
Chris: so people literally kind of- Yeah
Fried … frying themselves in the sun.

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It's, you know-

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Jen: Yeah, don't see that now … it's

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Chris: scary.

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Jen: So the real question is
why some of us make a decent

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tan and others just go red.

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That

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Chris: is the question, and this
all comes down to pigmentation.

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So to start things off for the fact fans
out there- … did you know that whatever

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your skin tone, so, um, you have roughly
the same density of pigment making

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cells in your skin, and it's about 1,200
cells per square millimeter of skin?

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So that's whether your skin
is very fair or very dark.

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Jamie: So hang on.

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The same number for everyone.

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So it isn't that darker skin simply
has more of these pigment cells.

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Chris: That's right.

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Jen: Yeah, and that's an assumption
that, you know, almost everybody would

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make, but it actually, it's wrong
because the same number, we all have

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the same number of pigment factories.

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Mm. The difference is what
those factories are making.

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Chris: Exactly, and the pigment
we're talking about here is melanin.

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So melanin is the skin's own
sunscreen, but here's the important

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bit, that skin doesn't make more
melanin because sunshine is healthy.

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It's making more melanin because the
ultraviolet light has triggered a, a

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protective response after the event.

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Jamie: So the tan isn't
the protection itself.

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It's the skin putting more protection
in place after it's been exposed.

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Offering only very
marginal extra protection.

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Chris: Mm-hmm.

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Jen: Yeah, and that's
essentially what a tan is.

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So the UV damages the skin, and the
tan is like the skin toughening up

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in response, which is why a tan, as
it, you know, as nice as it might

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look, is never a sign of health.

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It's a sign that the
skin's already taken a hit.

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Chris: And it's so important, isn't
it, because that's the fundamental

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point that gets misunderstood.

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A tan is a repair job.

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It's not a glow of good health.

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Jamie: So every holiday photo where
somebody says, "Look how healthy I look-

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"… is technically a close-up of skin damage.

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Chris: Yeah.

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Jen: Yeah, it is, but let's talk
about the damage itself, 'cause

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it's quite specific, isn't it?

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And Chris, we know that this
is your speciality area.

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Chris: It is.

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I've done a lot in the area of sun
protection over the years, and,

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uh, I do feel passionate about
it because of misinformation and

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just poor campaigns out there.

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Mm-hmm.

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So if we start with the what's
going on chemistry-wise.

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So ultraviolet rays within sunlight
have different wavelengths.

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The longer wavelengths are
known as UVA, with the more

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medium wavelengths known as UVB.

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So UVA penetrates deep into the skin,
with UVB penetrating into the outermost

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layers of the skin and triggering most
of the burning and tanning that we see.

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Jamie: So the same light that burns
Chris is the light that tans me.

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It just lands differently
depending on who's underneath it.

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Jen: Yeah, and that's the
key to the whole thing.

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So what UVB does is it causes damage
inside your skin cells, and the cell

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notices, and then there's a protect-
there's a protein called p53, which

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is also nicknamed the guardian of the
genome, which I think is such a cool name.

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Spots it, and then that raises the alarm.

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Chris: Yeah, Matt'd be naming
a new TV show The Guardian

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of the Genome, wouldn't he?

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Jen: Yeah, yeah.

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Chris: Volume three.

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Um, and that alarm that you mentioned
is the signal that tells the pigment

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cells to start making more melanin,
uh, to try and fend off that UV damage.

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But however, as we said earlier,
the damage always comes first,

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so it's after the event.

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Jen: Mm-hmm.

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Jamie: So the tan literally can't happen
unless the DNA gets damaged first.

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The damage is the thing that
places the order for new melanin.

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Jen: And here's the precise
bit because people muddle it.

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So tanning and burning aren't
one thing at different strengths.

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They're two completely
different processes.

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So a burn is your skin being
injured and inflamed, while a tan

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is something active and protective.

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Your skin's manufacturing pigment,
albeit in response to damage.

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So whether you can pull off that
second one at all comes down to your

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genes, not to how much sun you get.

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Chris: That's right, and here's the catch,
even for those who can do it and can tan.

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Mm. So a proper protective tan takes
a couple of days to come in, uh, and

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come up fully, so it does nothing
for the sun you're getting today.

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And whatever your, uh, you build in
terms of that tan, you don't keep.

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Uh, plus it's only offering that
very small amount of protection

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anyways we've already covered.

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Jen: Mm.

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Jamie: So it's protection that
turns up late and leaves early.

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Classic.

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Yeah.

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Jen: Pretty much.

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Yeah.

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And your skin replaces itself
anyway, doesn't it, every four weeks.

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So those pigmented cells that tan, those
cells get pushed up, shed, and swapped for

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fresh pale ones, which is why a tan fades
and why it's never lasting protection.

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Jamie: Okay, but here's
what I still don't get.

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I go brown just by standing near a window.

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Chris goes the color of a London bus.

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Same number of cells, same
alarm, so why the difference?

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Chris: Yeah, I really do go the
color of a London bus, actually.

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It's quite, quite depressing really.

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But anyway, um, so this comes down
to the most critical point when

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it comes to melanin, that there
isn't one melanin, there are two.

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There is eumelanin and pheomelanin.

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So eumelanin is the darker one,
uh, it's darker in color, whereas

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pheomelanin is more reddish to yellow.

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So they behave completely differently,
and if you imagine your, um, pigment

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cells as kind of little printing shops,
the question isn't how many you've got,

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it's which melanin cartridges there are.

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Jamie: Eumelanin and pheomelanin.

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One, one might almost say Jamie
melanin and Chris melanin.

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Catchy.

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Yeah.

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The dark one and the red one.

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Chris: That's so harsh, isn't it?

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But fair.

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Jen: It's nice that I'm escaping this all.

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So yeah, eumelanin is the dense, dark
pigment, and it's the more protective

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of the two, and that absorbs and safely
dissipates more UV than pheomelanin.

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Jamie: So eumelanin is the form of melanin
that gives you the bronze tone and does

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actually contribute some protection, the
one I'm evidently running in my body.

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Chris: That's it, and the kinda
red-yellow corner is pheomelanin, and

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that's the one I'm more loaded with.

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But there's a, a thing here to take into
account that not only is pheomelanin much

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less effective at dealing with UV light,
um, but when sunlight hits pheomelanin,

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it can actually trigger oxidative
stress, contribute to further damage.

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Jen: Which is, it's
almost unfair, isn't it?

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I know.

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So for some people, the pigment
isn't even neutral, it just works

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against them even without much sun.

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Jamie: So Chris's skin isn't
just failing him, it's quietly

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making things a bit worse.

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No wonder you go off like a warning light

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Chris: Yes, thanks, Jamie.

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The man who stands near
a window and tans anyway.

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You know, we're all delighted for you.

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Jen: Love it.

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So Chris, what actually
determines the type and the

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amount of melanin in your skin?

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Chris: Yeah, so this is
largely down to your genes.

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So certain genes influence whether
your pigment cells produce more

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eumelanin or more pheomelanin.

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So people with more pheomelanin
have, uh, fair skin, freckles.

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They're often red or blonde-haired, and
are much more likely to burn than tan.

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Jamie: So somewhere in Chris's
genetics, there's a switch firmly in

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the pheomelanin on position, but the
eumelanin switch is pretty much off.

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Chris: Yeah, that's pretty accurate,
Jamie, and it's the ultimate

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answer here, uh, to the question
of why you tan and why I don't.

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So when sun hits, your skin can crank
out the darker eumelanin pigment.

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You go that kinda nice bronze color
and have a bit of protection, whereas

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mine is predominantly pheomelanin,
so I won't go particularly brown,

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but I most definitely will burn.

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Jamie: So it was never
that I tan harder than you.

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Your skin's just got nothing to tan with.

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Jen: Yeah, that's the heart of it, and the
extreme version is the classic redhead.

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So around 1 in 20 make almost
entirely pheomelanin, the reddish

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pigment, and barely any of the
protective eumelanin, so they burn

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and freckle however careful they are.

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So it's not willpower failing, it's
just the melanin that they were handed.

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Chris: That's it.

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I mean, I always used to joke that I've
got so many freckles and they, I get

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millions more when I go in the sun.

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The only way I'd actually ever
get a tan is if they all join up-

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Yeah … I've got one big freckle.

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Yeah.

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Um, but dermatologists often
describe skin using what's

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known as the Fitzpatrick scale.

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So this grades your skin from one to
six based on how readily it burns and

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tans- Mm … in response to sunlight.

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So, um, a Fitzpatrick type one is very
fair skin, uh, that almost always burns

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and rarely tans, while type six at
the other end of the scale is deeply

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pigmented skin that rarely burns.

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Mm. And this Fitzpatrick scale was,
um, originally developed in the '70s

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to help doctors choose safe doses
for certain light-based treatments.

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Jamie: So where do the three
of us land on this scale?

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Chris: Yeah, so on the Fitzpatrick
scale, I'm a one, probably

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unsurprisingly, maybe borderline two.

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There are some people a, a little
bit paler than me, believe it or not.

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Um, so I've got … There's very
little of the dark eumelanin pigment,

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so I've got no real tanning ability,
almost no built-in protection.

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So my bare skin is about an SPF
of two maximum, so pointless.

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Jen: Oh, it's not that bad, Chris.

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I'm a, I'm probably a two, so I'm
not quite as fair-skinned as Chris.

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And Jamie, I'd put you somewhere around
about a three or maybe a four with more

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eumelanin and the greater ability to tan
and more natural protection from the UV.

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Um, and I think in very dark skin around,
they're around a Fitzpatrick type six,

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I think researchers have estimated
the natural protection may be roughly

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equivalent to an SPF of around 10 to 13,
but that's only, like, a rough comparison.

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Jamie: Which still isn't much
compared to a bottle of factor 50.

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Jen: Mm.

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Chris: It's so true, and that's why some
people get caught out by this because

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people can assume that they've got darker
skin tones, that they're protected.

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But as I say, SPF 13 at a
max, it's not a lot, is it?

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Jamie: No.

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Chris: Uh, so even the best built-in
protection sits way below the lowest

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sun protection factor that we would ever
recommend, which is, I'd say 15, but

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it's probably more likely 25 these days.

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Mm. So no skin type, wherever you sit on
the Fitzpatrick scale, does the job alone.

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Jen: And it's important to point
out, isn't it, that every one of

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those skin types can still burn,
and every one can be damaged.

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So the old version of the scale claimed
that the darker skin never burns or

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gets damaged, which simply isn't true.

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Chris: It's not, and that myth
does real harm, doesn't it?

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Mm. Because people with darker
skin are often led to believe

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they, they don't need to worry.

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Um, but it's really serious, so skin
cancers can end up getting spotted later.

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Yeah.

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Um, so the added protection is real, but
in the scheme of things, the uplift versus

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paler skin types is not that big a deal.

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Jamie: So I never burn quietly turns
into I never check, and that's the

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bit that actually carries a risk.

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Jen: Yeah, it is, and it
works the other way, too.

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So I'm pretty sure even Jamie would
burn if you overdo it, um, but you

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just get less of a warning sign.

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Jamie: Yes, that's true.

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I definitely do.

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So given some of us, namely no Chrises,
are preset to burn, what actually works?

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Because never go outside is rather
a boring, um, way to live your life.

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Jen: Yeah.

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Chris: Yeah, and I am unashamedly
Captain Sensible when it

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comes to safety in the sun.

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I know you call me that anyway, but
this is definitely a pet topic for me.

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Jen: You are

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owning it today.

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Chris: Absolutely.

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I, yeah, I do… I genuinely feel very
passionately about this- Mm … um, 'cause

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I've done a lot of work in this area,
and sadly I've seen the, the impact of

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sun damage, and it's, it's catastrophic.

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00:13:49,179 --> 00:13:50,739
Um, so back to your question, Jamie.

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00:13:50,759 --> 00:13:55,149
The first point to reinforce is that the
tan itself isn't doing the protecting.

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00:13:55,549 --> 00:13:58,499
So if you are spending time in
the sun, you need something that

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genuinely is doing that protecting.

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00:13:59,769 --> 00:14:03,499
So I'd recommend a, a good broad
spectrum sunscreen, meaning it

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00:14:03,499 --> 00:14:08,799
protects against both UVA and UVB,
at an SPF I would say of at least 25.

292
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Some people say 15, but
I'd go for 25 minimum.

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And really importantly is
reapply it during the day.

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So if you're on holiday and you've
been swimming, you must reapply.

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00:14:18,369 --> 00:14:19,069
It's gonna come off.

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00:14:19,099 --> 00:14:21,699
Even if it says it's water-resistant-
Mm … they're not really.

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00:14:21,719 --> 00:14:22,399
They're not that good.

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00:14:22,919 --> 00:14:25,899
And if you're sweating a lot, I dunno
about you, I always tend to burn on

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the forehead- Yeah … 'cause you-
I just sweat it off the- Yeah, yeah

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00:14:28,649 --> 00:14:29,979
the kind of receding hairline I've got.

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00:14:30,259 --> 00:14:30,279
Um-

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00:14:30,749 --> 00:14:33,649
Jen: Yeah, plus that you can do,
like, the obvious things, can't you?

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00:14:33,649 --> 00:14:39,109
Like wearing extra clothing, um, sitting
in the shade, which do even more.

304
00:14:39,339 --> 00:14:43,559
And consider the timing when you're
sitting out because the midday sun,

305
00:14:43,569 --> 00:14:45,529
that is strong stuff, isn't it?

306
00:14:45,859 --> 00:14:51,299
And, you know, it's safe to say, isn't it,
that, um, the best version of all of these

307
00:14:51,339 --> 00:14:53,089
tips are the ones you'll actually do.

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00:14:53,089 --> 00:14:56,689
There's no point in buying
a fancy sunscreen that you

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00:14:56,689 --> 00:14:58,129
leave in the bathroom drawer-

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00:14:58,209 --> 00:14:58,459
Chris: Absolutely

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00:14:58,479 --> 00:15:00,959
… Jen: and don't use because- Yeah
… obviously that protects nobody.

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00:15:01,199 --> 00:15:03,909
Jamie: Now, I mentioned them before,
but I'd like us to talk about sunbeds.

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00:15:03,909 --> 00:15:04,869
Jen: Mm-hmm.

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00:15:05,279 --> 00:15:08,219
Chris: Yeah, and this is another thing,
I'm getting on my soapbox today, but I'm,

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00:15:08,229 --> 00:15:10,269
I'm gonna be unashamedly blunt about.

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00:15:10,319 --> 00:15:14,329
Contrary to what some people believe,
sunbeds are not a gentler option.

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00:15:14,619 --> 00:15:19,789
They're very concentrated UV, and the real
danger is the damage is mostly invisible.

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00:15:19,809 --> 00:15:22,899
You don't get that kind of
sunburn, uh, trigger to show

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00:15:22,899 --> 00:15:23,839
you that something's happening.

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00:15:24,159 --> 00:15:25,409
The harm is happening underneath.

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00:15:25,479 --> 00:15:25,849
Jen: Mm.

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00:15:26,189 --> 00:15:29,679
Chris: Um, and so many young people
u- are using sunbeds too now.

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00:15:29,689 --> 00:15:31,959
W- it's back in fashion worryingly.

324
00:15:32,359 --> 00:15:35,769
But actually starting young
sharply raises the risk of

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00:15:35,769 --> 00:15:37,419
serious skin cancer as you age.

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00:15:37,489 --> 00:15:39,999
Mm. So in my personal opinion,
sunbeds should be banned.

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00:15:40,279 --> 00:15:40,429
Jen: Mm.

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00:15:40,439 --> 00:15:43,449
Jamie: So when it comes to sunbeds, that
single sheet of newspaper in the rainstorm

329
00:15:43,449 --> 00:15:47,029
we referred to earlier is now actually
a sheet of newspaper soaked in petrol.

330
00:15:47,039 --> 00:15:47,059
Yeah.

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00:15:47,549 --> 00:15:48,169
Good to know.

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00:15:48,549 --> 00:15:49,039
Jen: Yeah.

333
00:15:49,779 --> 00:15:53,209
And there's another myth that some
of, you know, some people might have

334
00:15:53,209 --> 00:15:58,669
heard, which is, you know, someone pale
moves somewhere, like sunny, like Spain

335
00:15:58,669 --> 00:16:03,479
or Australia, and a few years later
they look, like, permanently tanned.

336
00:16:03,939 --> 00:16:07,489
Surely that proves you can
build up a tan over time.

337
00:16:07,809 --> 00:16:09,989
Chris: Well, you think so, and it is
the most convincing one, isn't it?

338
00:16:09,989 --> 00:16:10,769
Mm. But it is a myth.

339
00:16:10,809 --> 00:16:11,919
It's actually almost back to
what I was saying about getting

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00:16:11,919 --> 00:16:14,289
one freckle and it joining up-

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00:16:14,389 --> 00:16:14,669
Jen: Yeah

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00:16:14,669 --> 00:16:15,529
… 
Chris: to produce the tan.

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00:16:15,539 --> 00:16:21,119
Because if those people are a, a type I
or a II on the Fitzpatrick scale, they

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00:16:21,119 --> 00:16:25,429
haven't built a tan or trained their
skin to somehow tan because they can't.

345
00:16:25,429 --> 00:16:27,179
Y- the, our biol-
biology doesn't allow it.

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00:16:27,179 --> 00:16:30,019
So what you're actually seeing on
those people who are lucky enough to

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00:16:30,019 --> 00:16:34,739
go and emigrate to the sun- … is
years of accumulated UV injury.

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00:16:34,969 --> 00:16:38,379
So the skin is going darker in, in more
and more patches and patchy places.

349
00:16:38,499 --> 00:16:38,849
Jen: Mm.

350
00:16:38,919 --> 00:16:40,829
Jamie: And I suppose those
patches don't come alone.

351
00:16:41,589 --> 00:16:41,919
Chris: No.

352
00:16:41,989 --> 00:16:42,499
Jen: No.

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00:16:42,549 --> 00:16:47,849
They come with rough, leathery
skin, wrinkles, age spots,

354
00:16:48,149 --> 00:16:49,839
a patchy, uneven color.

355
00:16:50,029 --> 00:16:54,489
It isn't that your skin is learning to
cope, it's the skin being worn down,

356
00:16:54,549 --> 00:16:57,999
and unlike a real tan, it doesn't fade.

357
00:16:58,289 --> 00:16:58,819
Chris: That's right.

358
00:16:58,819 --> 00:17:02,109
I mean, you've, you've basically
worn down its resilience to the sun.

359
00:17:02,339 --> 00:17:02,359
Yeah.

360
00:17:02,459 --> 00:17:04,849
Um, and it's, it's effectively
a record of damage.

361
00:17:04,879 --> 00:17:06,249
It's not a healthy bronze.

362
00:17:06,739 --> 00:17:10,099
And the thing is, it carries a real
risk of skin cancer down the line.

363
00:17:10,219 --> 00:17:10,379
Jen: Mm.

364
00:17:10,399 --> 00:17:14,069
Jamie: So you generally genuinely
can't train your skin into it.

365
00:17:14,469 --> 00:17:17,719
It's the one thing where trying
harder actively makes things worse.

366
00:17:18,149 --> 00:17:18,449
Jen: Yeah.

367
00:17:19,279 --> 00:17:23,549
And before anyone swears off
daylight forever, a bit of scor-

368
00:17:24,309 --> 00:17:25,599
a bit of sun isn't the enemy.

369
00:17:25,609 --> 00:17:30,049
So your skin uses UV to make
vitamin D. You can, you know, you

370
00:17:30,069 --> 00:17:34,759
can get that, um, more safely from
food or a supplement though, than

371
00:17:34,889 --> 00:17:36,379
actually baking yourself in the sun.

372
00:17:36,619 --> 00:17:37,019
Chris: Yeah.

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00:17:37,059 --> 00:17:39,499
And, and it's so important 'cause
w- we're not anti-sun, are we?

374
00:17:39,499 --> 00:17:39,899
Yeah At all.

375
00:17:39,929 --> 00:17:42,449
So yeah, there, there are loads
of health benefits to the sun.

376
00:17:42,449 --> 00:17:44,079
Mm. It's all about safety.

377
00:17:44,209 --> 00:17:44,329
Mm-hmm.

378
00:17:44,329 --> 00:17:45,549
That, that's what we're
talking about here.

379
00:17:46,009 --> 00:17:50,029
And, um, when it comes to vitamin D,
it's something that we covered in the,

380
00:17:50,039 --> 00:17:54,109
the vitamin D episode of the podcast,
and it's really important for people to

381
00:17:54,109 --> 00:17:58,459
understand this, that you only need a
little bit of UV exposure to stimulate

382
00:17:58,589 --> 00:17:59,809
vitamin D production in the skin.

383
00:17:59,899 --> 00:18:03,949
Mm. So the final myth I'm gonna bust
here is- The concept that applying

384
00:18:03,989 --> 00:18:09,879
a, like a really high SPF sun product
will inhibit the skin's ability to

385
00:18:09,949 --> 00:18:12,279
produce vitamin D, that's not the case.

386
00:18:12,379 --> 00:18:16,799
Mm. You only need a very small amount of
UV exposure to produce that vitamin D.

387
00:18:17,589 --> 00:18:21,859
Um, but as you say, Jen, you know, you can
get vitamin D from foods or supplements

388
00:18:21,859 --> 00:18:26,389
too, meaning you can do it safely without
kind of risking overexposure to the sun

389
00:18:26,869 --> 00:18:29,459
in that quest for good vitamin D levels.

390
00:18:30,499 --> 00:18:34,329
Jen: Okay, so pulling it all together,
we've got the same number of cells,

391
00:18:34,359 --> 00:18:39,999
but the pigment they're set to make,
the eumelanin or pheomelanin, is mostly

392
00:18:39,999 --> 00:18:41,939
fixed by your genes before you were born.

393
00:18:42,459 --> 00:18:44,399
Jamie: And the tan itself
was never the healthy bit.

394
00:18:44,429 --> 00:18:48,039
It's just the skin reacting to
damage that has already been done.

395
00:18:48,139 --> 00:18:51,069
Jen: So here's the clean
answer to where we started.

396
00:18:51,099 --> 00:18:53,849
Why do some people tan while others don't?

397
00:18:54,149 --> 00:18:59,679
Because tanning ability is genetic,
set by how much of the dark

398
00:18:59,679 --> 00:19:01,879
protective pigment your skin can make.

399
00:19:02,339 --> 00:19:08,279
Um, plenty of it and you tan, very little
and the same sun just burns you instead.

400
00:19:08,729 --> 00:19:13,239
There's no such thing as a safe
tan, and you sadly can't train

401
00:19:13,239 --> 00:19:15,369
your skin into making one either.

402
00:19:16,039 --> 00:19:17,709
So that's it for this week.

403
00:19:17,779 --> 00:19:20,059
Make sure you hit that subscribe button.

404
00:19:20,059 --> 00:19:24,209
We're unpacking the science behind
everyday questions each week.

405
00:19:24,509 --> 00:19:27,899
Tell us in the comments what
you'd like us to explore next.

406
00:19:28,239 --> 00:19:29,769
Thanks for geeking out with us.

407
00:19:30,139 --> 00:19:31,669
But for now, that's it from me.

408
00:19:31,999 --> 00:19:32,359
Jamie: That's it

409
00:19:32,359 --> 00:19:32,729
Chris: from me.

410
00:19:33,079 --> 00:19:33,849
Jamie: That's it from me.

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00:19:34,159 --> 00:19:34,859
Jen: Bye for now