1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:03,666 This is Conservation and Science podcast, where we take a deep dive 2 00:00:03,666 --> 00:00:08,400 into topics of ecology, conservation and human wildlife interactions. 3 00:00:08,500 --> 00:00:09,733 I'm Tommy Serafinski 4 00:00:09,733 --> 00:00:14,566 and I always strive to bring you diverse perspectives on topics we discuss here 5 00:00:14,566 --> 00:00:18,933 and examine their ecological, social, and political dimensions. 6 00:00:18,966 --> 00:00:20,833 And today is one of those episodes where we are 7 00:00:20,833 --> 00:00:24,700 particularly going to focus on social and political dimensions, 8 00:00:24,700 --> 00:00:28,800 because we are going to discuss European environmental policy. 9 00:00:29,100 --> 00:00:32,100 And our guest is Faustine Bas-Defossez, 10 00:00:32,233 --> 00:00:37,333 who is the director for nature, Health and Environment at the European 11 00:00:37,333 --> 00:00:42,933 Environmental Bureau, ECB and what is European Environmental Bureau? 12 00:00:43,000 --> 00:00:46,200 You will learn in the first minutes of this podcast. 13 00:00:46,500 --> 00:00:50,100 We we're going to talk about the complex relation between farming 14 00:00:50,266 --> 00:00:53,266 and nature and nature conservation. 15 00:00:53,266 --> 00:00:56,266 We're going to talk about CAP of course. 16 00:00:56,266 --> 00:00:59,933 And we also going to talk about how agricultural policies 17 00:00:59,933 --> 00:01:03,333 shape the landscape and biodiversity in Europe. 18 00:01:03,866 --> 00:01:07,033 Obviously, we going to talk about the controversial decision 19 00:01:07,033 --> 00:01:10,366 to lower the protection status of wolves in Europe 20 00:01:10,366 --> 00:01:15,300 and how this my, shape or influence is human wildlife coexistence. 21 00:01:15,666 --> 00:01:19,466 And we also going to look at the newly adopted 22 00:01:19,500 --> 00:01:23,600 nature restoration law and what is or is 23 00:01:23,700 --> 00:01:28,633 what is going to be potential impact on, Europe's ecosystems and everything. 24 00:01:28,633 --> 00:01:30,933 This is all my turn. A little bit depressing. 25 00:01:30,933 --> 00:01:35,600 Then stick till the end, because Faustine shares with us a success story 26 00:01:35,600 --> 00:01:38,600 about bringing diverse, interested parties. 27 00:01:38,633 --> 00:01:39,300 I'm going to follow 28 00:01:39,300 --> 00:01:43,133 Rob York's advice and say interested parties rather than stakeholders. 29 00:01:43,200 --> 00:01:47,166 So how we managed to bring all the interested parties 30 00:01:47,433 --> 00:01:52,966 and forge a meaningful consensus about the future of European agriculture. 31 00:01:53,000 --> 00:01:54,266 Very positive news. 32 00:01:54,266 --> 00:01:58,733 So you have a pretty good idea now what this episode is going to be about. 33 00:01:58,800 --> 00:02:03,700 So without any further delay, enjoy the show. 34 00:02:04,100 --> 00:02:05,966 Faustine, welcome to the show. 35 00:02:05,966 --> 00:02:07,833 Thank you. It's a pleasure to have you. 36 00:02:07,833 --> 00:02:13,233 I look forward to our conversation because we are going to talk the, 37 00:02:13,233 --> 00:02:17,866 you know, subjects of Europe and European nature and nature conservation. 38 00:02:17,866 --> 00:02:20,866 This is always interesting for me and my listeners, 39 00:02:21,300 --> 00:02:25,266 but just to set the context for anyone who's listening to that. 40 00:02:25,433 --> 00:02:28,100 You are currently the director for nature, Health 41 00:02:28,100 --> 00:02:31,533 and Environment at the European Environmental Bureau 42 00:02:31,866 --> 00:02:36,600 and could you give us and our listeners an abbreviated version? 43 00:02:37,000 --> 00:02:39,033 What is Eeb? 44 00:02:39,033 --> 00:02:42,200 What do you do and what is your background, how it came 45 00:02:42,200 --> 00:02:46,233 to be that you are in the positions you are in, in that organization? 46 00:02:46,233 --> 00:02:52,033 Yes. So the EEB is the largest federation of environment and NGOs in Europe. 47 00:02:53,066 --> 00:02:54,500 We have 48 00:02:54,500 --> 00:02:57,633 around 185 members, 49 00:02:59,033 --> 00:02:59,866 organization. 50 00:02:59,866 --> 00:03:02,866 So when I say members, I mean organizations, 51 00:03:03,500 --> 00:03:07,266 in around 40, 41 countries. 52 00:03:07,266 --> 00:03:11,966 So it's in the EU, but also in Europe in the geographical sense. 53 00:03:12,333 --> 00:03:15,766 And we've been around for 15 years now. 54 00:03:15,766 --> 00:03:20,900 Actually, this year we are celebrating our 50th anniversary, in December. 55 00:03:20,900 --> 00:03:23,900 So, pretty soon, 56 00:03:24,100 --> 00:03:27,000 what makes us quite unique, 57 00:03:27,000 --> 00:03:30,533 is that we are the largest, first and foremost, 58 00:03:30,933 --> 00:03:33,900 but also we cover a broad range of, 59 00:03:33,900 --> 00:03:36,900 topics, and policies. 60 00:03:36,966 --> 00:03:41,266 Often you have NGOs that, are very focused 61 00:03:41,266 --> 00:03:45,933 on one, you know, like peat biodiversity or climate 62 00:03:45,966 --> 00:03:51,333 or circular economy or health or we cover all of that. 63 00:03:51,666 --> 00:03:55,533 So we're quite systemic, if I can say so. 64 00:03:55,800 --> 00:04:00,833 We work on agriculture, biodiversity, soil, water, but also pollution, air, 65 00:04:01,166 --> 00:04:04,333 pollution, noise pollution, but also global 66 00:04:04,333 --> 00:04:07,900 and regional policy, circular economy, climate, energy. 67 00:04:08,566 --> 00:04:11,366 So we are, covering 68 00:04:11,366 --> 00:04:14,466 everything that's, you know, the so-called, 69 00:04:15,400 --> 00:04:19,300 European Green Deal, which was this project you know, from the EU to, 70 00:04:20,166 --> 00:04:23,900 make, the creature greener that falls under the green view. 71 00:04:23,900 --> 00:04:27,000 So, we are quite broad in terms of coverage 72 00:04:27,566 --> 00:04:30,666 now, we have, around 73 00:04:30,733 --> 00:04:34,466 more than 80 people, working here in the secretariat in Brussels. 74 00:04:34,466 --> 00:04:37,266 So we're also quite large, in terms of staff, 75 00:04:38,233 --> 00:04:40,433 and capacity here in Brussels. 76 00:04:40,433 --> 00:04:44,433 And what we do in our daily job is what I would call, I mean, so 77 00:04:44,433 --> 00:04:47,733 we call it lobbying, but, I mean, I don't have any problem with that word. 78 00:04:47,733 --> 00:04:51,933 Actually, I think that lobbying can also, be, you know, for, 79 00:04:52,600 --> 00:04:55,600 general interest, for public interest, which is what we are, 80 00:04:56,500 --> 00:04:59,066 you know, calling for and what we're doing. 81 00:04:59,066 --> 00:05:02,933 So we're doing, lobbying or advocacy to make, 82 00:05:03,366 --> 00:05:06,366 EU policies, greener. 83 00:05:06,466 --> 00:05:09,200 And we do that, with meetings, 84 00:05:09,200 --> 00:05:12,966 of course, but with reports that we, draft, 85 00:05:12,966 --> 00:05:16,533 you know, on the basis of scientific data that, we collect, 86 00:05:16,533 --> 00:05:19,533 we are science based, science based organization. 87 00:05:20,533 --> 00:05:23,433 We do partnership with other, NGOs. 88 00:05:23,433 --> 00:05:26,800 So, for instance, we work under what we call the green ten, 89 00:05:26,800 --> 00:05:31,633 which is a platform of the ten largest, on badminton NGOs here in Brussels. 90 00:05:31,966 --> 00:05:35,600 So it includes WWF, but also BirdLife, 91 00:05:35,966 --> 00:05:39,433 can Climate Action Network and Greenpeace, for instance. 92 00:05:39,800 --> 00:05:42,800 And, we coordinate, all voice 93 00:05:43,266 --> 00:05:46,300 towards decision makers, together. 94 00:05:46,833 --> 00:05:50,033 And we are also, members of expert groups 95 00:05:50,033 --> 00:05:53,233 that the currently the European Commission, you know, organizes. 96 00:05:53,233 --> 00:05:55,733 We respond to public consultation. 97 00:05:55,733 --> 00:05:59,266 We also run campaigns like during the elections, 98 00:05:59,266 --> 00:06:02,966 you know, this year, the European Parliament election, we try to mobilize 99 00:06:02,966 --> 00:06:08,433 voters with, scientific data and, science based information, 100 00:06:08,800 --> 00:06:12,233 but also factual information about the role of the EU and of 101 00:06:12,433 --> 00:06:14,666 fundamental policy in their daily life. 102 00:06:15,633 --> 00:06:16,600 So that's, 103 00:06:16,600 --> 00:06:19,466 you know, in a nutshell, what we are doing. 104 00:06:19,466 --> 00:06:23,500 And as of my role as the director for nature, Health and Environment, 105 00:06:24,766 --> 00:06:27,766 I am responsible for quite a big chunk of the, 106 00:06:28,433 --> 00:06:31,133 area policies that we are working on 107 00:06:31,133 --> 00:06:36,000 in the organization from agriculture to, so on water, 108 00:06:36,233 --> 00:06:40,033 but also pollution, chemicals, pollution as well, that we are, 109 00:06:40,933 --> 00:06:45,566 working on or tackling or trying to, to stop and prevent 110 00:06:46,100 --> 00:06:49,233 and as of my background, how I came, 111 00:06:50,000 --> 00:06:52,233 how I arrived there. 112 00:06:52,233 --> 00:06:55,233 Well, as you can say from my accent in French, 113 00:06:56,366 --> 00:06:59,366 I, actually I'm not, 114 00:07:00,766 --> 00:07:02,433 I haven't studied 115 00:07:02,433 --> 00:07:06,600 biology or, you know, I'm not a conservation is per se. 116 00:07:06,833 --> 00:07:09,833 I'm actually a lawyer by training. 117 00:07:10,766 --> 00:07:14,600 And that is how I ended up working for, 118 00:07:15,700 --> 00:07:18,833 You know, within the EU, for I, let's say, 119 00:07:18,833 --> 00:07:22,866 because I quickly, understood how important, 120 00:07:24,033 --> 00:07:26,400 the EU is for environmental policy 121 00:07:26,400 --> 00:07:29,766 because this is where you actually get the bulk of environmental policy 122 00:07:29,766 --> 00:07:34,466 that then member states have to, implement, and have to translate 123 00:07:34,466 --> 00:07:40,833 into their national laws and, I quickly decided to work, in Brussels. 124 00:07:40,833 --> 00:07:43,833 I started working in the European Commission, 125 00:07:43,833 --> 00:07:46,833 for two years, focusing on agriculture, actually. 126 00:07:47,133 --> 00:07:49,166 And then I joined the ECB. 127 00:07:49,166 --> 00:07:52,233 So I've been around the ECB for, for quite a number of years. 128 00:07:52,933 --> 00:07:57,733 And my first topic was actually agriculture, but, 129 00:07:58,400 --> 00:08:03,266 there was also reason because, agriculture indeed impacts, our environment. 130 00:08:03,633 --> 00:08:05,266 Quite a lot. 131 00:08:05,266 --> 00:08:08,533 It can be in a negative way, as we see from science. 132 00:08:09,033 --> 00:08:10,400 Biodiversity, etc. 133 00:08:10,400 --> 00:08:14,133 but some practices can also, be extremely important for, 134 00:08:14,666 --> 00:08:17,666 some form of biodiversity conservation. 135 00:08:17,800 --> 00:08:20,800 So, so, yeah, that's, 136 00:08:20,866 --> 00:08:25,200 that is, about the organization, and a bit of me as well. 137 00:08:25,200 --> 00:08:28,566 And maybe last, but I mean, that's also important in how, 138 00:08:29,100 --> 00:08:33,433 of course, why I keep fighting and and why I despite, 139 00:08:34,333 --> 00:08:39,200 the numerous challenges and and that sometimes, you know, the feeling 140 00:08:39,200 --> 00:08:44,600 that, we are minds away from where we should be, if we look at science, 141 00:08:45,666 --> 00:08:45,966 I'm a 142 00:08:45,966 --> 00:08:49,166 mother of, two kids that are still quite young. 143 00:08:49,166 --> 00:08:51,733 And, if I keep fighting, it's also for them. 144 00:08:51,733 --> 00:08:52,466 Absolutely. 145 00:08:52,466 --> 00:08:54,933 And thank you for for that introduction for thing. 146 00:08:54,933 --> 00:08:58,466 And you know, this this is a theme 147 00:08:58,666 --> 00:09:02,700 that is even in the recently published episode, 148 00:09:03,433 --> 00:09:06,533 which probably not going to be recently published by the time this one airs. 149 00:09:07,233 --> 00:09:11,400 I was speaking with a lady who wrote a book about climate anxiety, 150 00:09:11,400 --> 00:09:14,400 and she said, like, I'm doing that for my grandchildren. 151 00:09:14,766 --> 00:09:18,333 And then earlier I had the gentleman who again wrote a kids book. 152 00:09:18,766 --> 00:09:21,600 So saying, like, I don't think that my great grandchildren 153 00:09:21,600 --> 00:09:26,133 are getting enough of the knowledge and exposure to nature from their parents. 154 00:09:26,800 --> 00:09:29,133 He's, he's, son in this case. 155 00:09:29,133 --> 00:09:31,366 So this is kind of like a repeatedly repeating theme. 156 00:09:31,366 --> 00:09:33,333 And thank you for for bringing that up. 157 00:09:34,300 --> 00:09:38,233 Obviously agriculture, I'm sure we going to talk a lot about ugly culture. 158 00:09:38,233 --> 00:09:43,466 But first you have obviously a lot of experience in EU environmental policy. 159 00:09:43,833 --> 00:09:46,866 What is the biggest challenge in general in general 160 00:09:47,500 --> 00:09:52,633 in in balancing human activities with wildlife conservation? 161 00:09:52,633 --> 00:09:56,333 Because I think that that would be the core of the problems 162 00:09:56,333 --> 00:09:59,666 with wildlife and biodiversity that we have all. 163 00:09:59,900 --> 00:10:02,900 What a, 164 00:10:04,266 --> 00:10:07,266 as I've said, you know, I mean, where my, 165 00:10:07,333 --> 00:10:11,633 my strongest expertise is, is, is on agriculture and, 166 00:10:12,333 --> 00:10:15,333 maybe I can take that as an example because, 167 00:10:15,400 --> 00:10:19,566 I think that, you know, this is where, obviously, we do see, 168 00:10:19,566 --> 00:10:23,700 I mean, it's it's it's a sector, an activity that does impact a lot. 169 00:10:24,666 --> 00:10:25,066 You know, I'm 170 00:10:25,066 --> 00:10:28,633 not sure our resources, our development in general, in biodiversity in particular. 171 00:10:29,266 --> 00:10:30,666 Why is it so difficult? 172 00:10:30,666 --> 00:10:35,466 I mean, we have been, farming and, let's say consuming 173 00:10:35,466 --> 00:10:40,066 or so agriculture projects in a certain way for, for decades. 174 00:10:40,066 --> 00:10:46,633 And, while it is clear from science that if we continue as we do, 175 00:10:47,066 --> 00:10:50,433 we won't be able to stay within planetary boundaries. 176 00:10:50,433 --> 00:10:54,166 And, eventually, we will hit the goal. 177 00:10:54,166 --> 00:10:58,200 I mean, to put it bluntly and simply, and it's not just, you know, 178 00:10:59,433 --> 00:11:00,800 something that will have 179 00:11:00,800 --> 00:11:03,700 impacts people outside of the, of the sector, 180 00:11:03,700 --> 00:11:08,233 but the sector itself, you know, farming will be among the first victims. 181 00:11:08,233 --> 00:11:09,366 I mean, we see that already 182 00:11:09,366 --> 00:11:12,933 with climate change and, the loss of what nature is, etc.. 183 00:11:13,333 --> 00:11:17,866 So why, despite not just the knowledge that what is happening 184 00:11:17,900 --> 00:11:21,333 in front of our very eyes, things are not changing. 185 00:11:21,800 --> 00:11:23,566 And and why? 186 00:11:23,566 --> 00:11:25,333 Because we do have policies in place. 187 00:11:25,333 --> 00:11:28,333 And I think this is also important to, to stress. 188 00:11:28,400 --> 00:11:31,533 You know, there are several environmental policy 189 00:11:31,533 --> 00:11:35,600 that have been adopted, you know, in the past decades that are out there 190 00:11:35,600 --> 00:11:39,933 on, on water, the water directive on biodiversity and Habitats Directive. 191 00:11:39,933 --> 00:11:43,600 And the problem does not lie with the policies themselves. 192 00:11:43,766 --> 00:11:45,633 It lies with the implementation 193 00:11:45,633 --> 00:11:49,700 and the fact that Member States are not implementing them as they shoot. 194 00:11:50,033 --> 00:11:51,933 So why are we there? 195 00:11:51,933 --> 00:11:54,500 The problem is, is systemic. 196 00:11:54,500 --> 00:11:57,500 This is why it's so difficult to tackle it. 197 00:11:57,566 --> 00:12:01,466 And I take the example of agriculture because it is quite obvious 198 00:12:01,733 --> 00:12:06,166 we're not going to manage to change our agricultural practices 199 00:12:06,333 --> 00:12:09,433 if we are not changing the food system as a whole. 200 00:12:09,933 --> 00:12:13,466 It's, it's it's in regional to think that we will 201 00:12:13,466 --> 00:12:19,800 make of farming practices more sustainable without changing practices 202 00:12:20,066 --> 00:12:23,433 all the way, you know, through the change and all the way to, 203 00:12:23,433 --> 00:12:26,733 to our, to a plate, basically, because, 204 00:12:27,933 --> 00:12:31,133 production and consumption are interestingly linked 205 00:12:31,333 --> 00:12:35,300 and not just as within the EU, but at the global level, of course, 206 00:12:35,300 --> 00:12:38,933 because we are also trading with partners, countries, etc.. 207 00:12:38,933 --> 00:12:41,866 So we need to look at it in a systemic way. 208 00:12:41,866 --> 00:12:44,766 And of course it is challenging. Of course it is difficult. 209 00:12:44,766 --> 00:12:48,933 And when you are faced with with such a challenge, sometimes, 210 00:12:48,933 --> 00:12:53,500 you know, it seems so complicated that the easiest, reaction 211 00:12:53,733 --> 00:12:57,300 is either to, to freeze and, you know, you're not doing anything. 212 00:12:57,300 --> 00:13:00,300 I statue quo because it seems impossible. 213 00:13:00,400 --> 00:13:03,833 Or you tend to to go for what you're saying, you know, 214 00:13:03,833 --> 00:13:05,100 it would work, but it doesn't. 215 00:13:05,100 --> 00:13:08,133 And we've seen it like quick fixes, technological fixes. 216 00:13:08,133 --> 00:13:12,333 And, but given that it's a systemic problem, we need to, to, 217 00:13:12,633 --> 00:13:17,200 to tackle it system, you know, systematically like, at a broader scale. 218 00:13:17,500 --> 00:13:19,533 But that doesn't mean that it's impossible. 219 00:13:19,533 --> 00:13:23,833 But of course, it requires a set of different things from policy. 220 00:13:24,100 --> 00:13:25,133 I mean, of course, 221 00:13:25,133 --> 00:13:29,533 new policies, more coherent policies, because we have also incoherence 222 00:13:29,533 --> 00:13:33,300 in, in policies, better implementation and better enforcement. 223 00:13:33,700 --> 00:13:38,333 But also we need the private actors to, to be part of that change. 224 00:13:38,333 --> 00:13:42,866 You know, we need to change market to we need to, consumers behavior, 225 00:13:42,866 --> 00:13:46,833 but without falling in the trap of this responsibility of consumers 226 00:13:46,833 --> 00:13:50,400 because whether we like it or not, consumers, actually, 227 00:13:51,566 --> 00:13:52,233 you know, 228 00:13:52,233 --> 00:13:56,133 not necessarily consciously making their food choices. 229 00:13:56,133 --> 00:13:59,466 You know, there are a number of factors that are influencing their choices, 230 00:13:59,900 --> 00:14:02,866 from the price to socio economic factors, 231 00:14:02,866 --> 00:14:06,633 cultural education and and marketing, etc., etc. 232 00:14:06,966 --> 00:14:09,500 and if we're not taking the law, then, you know, 233 00:14:09,500 --> 00:14:11,600 we're not changing what we call the food environment 234 00:14:11,600 --> 00:14:15,966 and we won't make the sustainable choice, the choice by default, which today is 235 00:14:16,233 --> 00:14:20,000 the opposite of unsustainable choices or standard choice by default. 236 00:14:20,433 --> 00:14:23,166 So, yeah, I mean, I think they are. 237 00:14:23,166 --> 00:14:25,533 Agriculture illustrates very well you know, like the, the, 238 00:14:25,533 --> 00:14:28,366 the magnitude, let's say, of the challenge that would face risk. 239 00:14:28,366 --> 00:14:30,333 But it's not because the challenges 240 00:14:30,333 --> 00:14:34,166 speak that we should not, you know, tackle it because, you know, 241 00:14:34,166 --> 00:14:37,766 the more we wait, the more difficult it becomes to actually tackle it. 242 00:14:38,233 --> 00:14:41,933 And the cost of inaction is huge and for the sector itself. 243 00:14:41,933 --> 00:14:45,700 But first and foremost, you're right about the systemic, 244 00:14:45,700 --> 00:14:48,766 the need for the systemic change in tackle the entire system 245 00:14:48,766 --> 00:14:52,933 rather than one point of a system, because that will never work over the years. 246 00:14:52,933 --> 00:14:57,000 Do you see any evolution in the relation between farmers 247 00:14:57,000 --> 00:15:02,066 and the farming sector and, you know, conservation, let's say, 248 00:15:02,100 --> 00:15:06,200 or, you know, environmentalists, let's, let's use those umbrella terms. 249 00:15:06,200 --> 00:15:09,933 Do you see any changes in that relation over the years? 250 00:15:10,266 --> 00:15:14,033 I mean, we work with farmers when I say we environmentalists 251 00:15:14,033 --> 00:15:17,033 in general, in my organization and our members, 252 00:15:17,433 --> 00:15:22,066 at national level, at local level, we engage in, in many, 253 00:15:23,200 --> 00:15:26,200 you know, partnerships and 254 00:15:26,300 --> 00:15:31,700 and their EU policies, but not only so, we do work with many farmers. 255 00:15:31,700 --> 00:15:37,100 You know, how important, it is to actually protect the natural resources 256 00:15:37,100 --> 00:15:40,100 they rely upon for their, for their activity. 257 00:15:40,233 --> 00:15:44,033 So, whether I mean, this has improved, 258 00:15:44,533 --> 00:15:48,266 over the years, I, I believe it has, 259 00:15:49,466 --> 00:15:52,466 and also because, you know, environmentalist, 260 00:15:53,000 --> 00:15:56,000 like, decades ago, they were completely absent, 261 00:15:56,100 --> 00:15:58,933 on the Common Agricultural Policy, for instance, discussion. 262 00:15:58,933 --> 00:16:01,933 So the Common Agricultural Policy is, 263 00:16:01,933 --> 00:16:04,933 some subsidies, policy, let's say. 264 00:16:04,933 --> 00:16:07,066 So it's a third of the EU budget. 265 00:16:07,066 --> 00:16:09,933 So it's quite a big chunk of the EU budget. 266 00:16:09,933 --> 00:16:11,700 Its impacts us all. 267 00:16:11,700 --> 00:16:17,133 But for a long time, you know, citizens, civil society, environmentalist 268 00:16:17,133 --> 00:16:20,400 were not so much part of the discussions on the Common Agricultural Policy. 269 00:16:20,400 --> 00:16:21,700 But this has changed. 270 00:16:21,700 --> 00:16:25,900 Now we are among the stakeholders, discussing it. 271 00:16:26,066 --> 00:16:31,566 We don't have the same, influence and influence power than some others. 272 00:16:31,866 --> 00:16:35,900 But we are around the table in many fora, not in own, but in many. 273 00:16:36,333 --> 00:16:39,866 So things have been and also the narrative has changed. 274 00:16:40,166 --> 00:16:44,166 I think that being said, recently, 275 00:16:44,900 --> 00:16:50,000 what I have noticed is, a very worrying push back and, 276 00:16:51,666 --> 00:16:54,366 somehow rollback, which I think is 277 00:16:54,366 --> 00:16:58,300 extremely concerning given the magnitude of the challenges that we're faced with. 278 00:16:58,300 --> 00:17:01,900 And again, the fact that's the sector itself is the first victim of it. 279 00:17:02,400 --> 00:17:05,666 And indeed, you know, as we were getting close to the 280 00:17:06,566 --> 00:17:09,966 European Parliament elections, in July 281 00:17:09,966 --> 00:17:14,166 this year, we've seen that there was a strong polarization. 282 00:17:14,166 --> 00:17:17,966 And, and this a very dangerous, 283 00:17:18,400 --> 00:17:23,033 I find, tactic of, using the environmental legislation 284 00:17:23,033 --> 00:17:28,266 as the scapegoat, basically, and saying that, it's the, the, the, 285 00:17:28,300 --> 00:17:33,633 the, the source of all of, the problems that the farmers are, faced with. 286 00:17:33,633 --> 00:17:36,366 Well, actually, it's their best friend, you know, 287 00:17:36,366 --> 00:17:39,366 I mean, if they were to be implemented correctly 288 00:17:39,433 --> 00:17:42,433 because there is no farming without natural resources. 289 00:17:42,433 --> 00:17:46,700 So and the environmental legislation is there to protect natural resources. 290 00:17:47,366 --> 00:17:50,133 Now, of course, we can discuss about how how we should be. 291 00:17:50,133 --> 00:17:51,933 I mean, you know, like about implementation, 292 00:17:51,933 --> 00:17:54,166 whether there are certain things that should be done better, etc. 293 00:17:54,166 --> 00:17:57,166 but per se, you know, we should not scrap environmental legislation. 294 00:17:57,166 --> 00:18:00,166 I mean, it's, it's it's it's it's a suicide. 295 00:18:00,833 --> 00:18:03,833 Yet in times of crisis, of course, you know, 296 00:18:04,200 --> 00:18:07,533 this sort of, wrong narrative tends to work because it's, 297 00:18:07,533 --> 00:18:10,900 you know, you have like, one enemy is the I mean, 298 00:18:11,433 --> 00:18:14,200 the government and policy, the, bomb and tennis, etc. 299 00:18:14,200 --> 00:18:18,000 and, you know, you're all, against, against those. 300 00:18:18,000 --> 00:18:21,400 And as I said, it is extremely, extremely dangerous. 301 00:18:21,400 --> 00:18:25,233 Yet we've seen that it has worked that, also 302 00:18:25,233 --> 00:18:29,566 some politicians have used that that tactic also for their reelection. 303 00:18:29,566 --> 00:18:33,633 And, and, and we see now after the elections that, 304 00:18:34,066 --> 00:18:37,066 yes, there is, a push for, 305 00:18:37,300 --> 00:18:41,533 what I would call de-regulation and, I must say that, 306 00:18:42,333 --> 00:18:45,366 this I would be, again, I mean, I'm 307 00:18:45,366 --> 00:18:49,833 using the term, suicide here, but it would be suicidal to, to do that. 308 00:18:49,833 --> 00:18:52,000 I mean, that's that's certainly not true. 309 00:18:52,000 --> 00:18:55,000 I mean, has never been the way to go, but especially in 310 00:18:55,066 --> 00:18:58,066 how when science is clear about, 311 00:18:58,233 --> 00:19:02,466 where we stand and, what we need to do and the fact that's, 312 00:19:03,100 --> 00:19:06,033 in in the fight against climate change, nature 313 00:19:06,033 --> 00:19:09,433 is essential and nature restoration is our best allies. 314 00:19:09,433 --> 00:19:10,666 So, Yeah. 315 00:19:11,900 --> 00:19:13,033 So, so to to. 316 00:19:13,033 --> 00:19:13,333 Yeah. 317 00:19:13,333 --> 00:19:16,966 Just to summarize, I mean, to answer your question, in the past decade. Yes. 318 00:19:16,966 --> 00:19:18,233 I mean, we are working with farmers. 319 00:19:18,233 --> 00:19:21,466 We think we we I mean, things have evolved, you know, 320 00:19:21,466 --> 00:19:24,633 slowly, not fast enough for sure, in the right direction. 321 00:19:25,533 --> 00:19:28,500 But now we're seeing these, these, you know, things going backwards. 322 00:19:28,500 --> 00:19:30,766 And that is extremely, extremely concerning. 323 00:19:30,766 --> 00:19:35,300 I, I agree with what you said, that this shouldn't be politicized 324 00:19:35,533 --> 00:19:39,900 because it's not about politics, about it's about the, just evidence. 325 00:19:40,400 --> 00:19:44,533 And I totally agree and understand I saw that myself. 326 00:19:44,533 --> 00:19:48,033 This this thing of like, oh, this is the the common enemy. 327 00:19:48,333 --> 00:19:51,333 I was like, recently I was called eco terrorist. 328 00:19:51,633 --> 00:19:53,000 Yeah, yeah. 329 00:19:53,000 --> 00:19:56,100 But then from the other hand, some, you know, I was talking about hunting and 330 00:19:56,100 --> 00:20:00,700 I was called the, animal abuse account, so you can't. 331 00:20:01,266 --> 00:20:02,933 Yeah, but this is like. 332 00:20:02,933 --> 00:20:06,500 Yeah, I mean, some politicians are using polarization for, 333 00:20:06,500 --> 00:20:10,466 for their own sake, and that is extremely, extremely toxic and dangerous. 334 00:20:10,833 --> 00:20:12,233 Yes. For sure. 335 00:20:12,233 --> 00:20:15,133 For that you mentioned Common Agricultural Policy. 336 00:20:15,133 --> 00:20:19,433 Could you give us a lay down where it is at the moment? 337 00:20:19,433 --> 00:20:24,333 Because there were like a recent changes to, Common Agricultural Policy? 338 00:20:24,533 --> 00:20:27,966 The comments I heard was like, oh, the globs of of 339 00:20:27,966 --> 00:20:32,366 this is now officially to support, you know, big industrial farmers. 340 00:20:32,366 --> 00:20:36,700 And they don't care about individual farmers at all. 341 00:20:37,233 --> 00:20:40,800 And so I was just curious, like, from where you where you said like, 342 00:20:40,800 --> 00:20:45,500 what is the current status of carp and what role it plays 343 00:20:45,500 --> 00:20:51,400 or should play in supporting farmers on one side, but also supporting 344 00:20:51,400 --> 00:20:56,966 wildlife conservation and supporting, you know, biodiversity and nature? 345 00:20:57,333 --> 00:21:02,633 Yes. So, indeed, as you say, there was a recent 346 00:21:02,633 --> 00:21:06,033 I would call it a reform because it was a reform in express 347 00:21:06,033 --> 00:21:09,033 one, let's say, a very fast one that's, happened, 348 00:21:09,466 --> 00:21:12,300 in spring this year, last spring. 349 00:21:12,300 --> 00:21:14,200 And why that happens, 350 00:21:15,166 --> 00:21:16,133 it was triggered 351 00:21:16,133 --> 00:21:20,033 by the demonstrations of farmers across Europe. 352 00:21:20,033 --> 00:21:23,233 And that's what I mean by, you know, when I said polarization. 353 00:21:23,233 --> 00:21:27,900 And so why did we have the farmers demonstrations in the first place? 354 00:21:27,900 --> 00:21:30,633 And that's where it is quite interesting. 355 00:21:30,633 --> 00:21:34,933 Farmers started to, to, to demonstrate in some parts of Europe, 356 00:21:34,933 --> 00:21:39,333 not because they were fed up with environmental legislation, not at all. 357 00:21:39,333 --> 00:21:41,433 And that was not their main claim. 358 00:21:41,433 --> 00:21:44,066 And this is important to stress here. 359 00:21:44,066 --> 00:21:46,833 It was because they are 360 00:21:46,833 --> 00:21:49,833 the first victims of the system. 361 00:21:49,833 --> 00:21:53,966 As I was saying earlier on, which is wrong and unsustainable. 362 00:21:53,966 --> 00:21:57,866 And if it isn't sustainable for us, it is also unsustainable for farmers. 363 00:21:58,333 --> 00:22:02,833 They are indeed, faced with, of course, more and more challenges 364 00:22:02,833 --> 00:22:06,033 when it comes to climate change and drought and, and floods 365 00:22:06,033 --> 00:22:09,066 that they have to I mean, they, they have not yet 366 00:22:09,633 --> 00:22:12,633 followed, you know, the practices that they should have, 367 00:22:12,800 --> 00:22:17,166 in order to adapt, to those so they are struggling with it. 368 00:22:17,666 --> 00:22:18,500 And, and the question is 369 00:22:18,500 --> 00:22:21,500 why they have not for and that's where the policy, of course, 370 00:22:21,666 --> 00:22:24,933 plays an important role, but they are also struggling, 371 00:22:25,533 --> 00:22:28,333 on the market because, you know, they are quite 372 00:22:28,333 --> 00:22:31,900 so somehow squeezed, you know, and they are not able to, 373 00:22:32,600 --> 00:22:36,000 put a price that covers, I mean, not all of them, of course. 374 00:22:36,000 --> 00:22:38,166 And I will say a few words about that. 375 00:22:38,166 --> 00:22:41,800 They are not able to put a price that covers the production costs. 376 00:22:41,800 --> 00:22:44,800 So basically they are selling some times, 377 00:22:45,333 --> 00:22:49,366 at loss, you know, their projects as an economic operator. 378 00:22:49,366 --> 00:22:52,500 The first thing to you learn is that in theory, you know, it's the ones 379 00:22:52,500 --> 00:22:55,500 you produce that set the price, not the ones who buys. 380 00:22:55,500 --> 00:22:58,633 But I mean, with agriculture, it's the other way around. 381 00:22:59,500 --> 00:23:03,333 They don't have room for negotiation, for maneuver. 382 00:23:03,333 --> 00:23:06,133 So this I mean, you know, they struggle. 383 00:23:06,133 --> 00:23:08,733 They can't make a living of their own activity. 384 00:23:09,766 --> 00:23:12,333 And they are faced with more and more, 385 00:23:12,333 --> 00:23:16,133 external programs coming from climate change, biodiversity loss, etc.. 386 00:23:16,366 --> 00:23:20,300 So this was the first reason why they were in the, in the streets. 387 00:23:21,100 --> 00:23:23,666 But very quickly, 388 00:23:23,666 --> 00:23:25,533 the mainstream, from 389 00:23:25,533 --> 00:23:28,533 unions, the large farm unions, you know, 390 00:23:28,933 --> 00:23:31,800 because of course, if you have 391 00:23:31,800 --> 00:23:34,533 not necessarily splits, but different voices, you know, 392 00:23:34,533 --> 00:23:39,000 like farming etc., for then, you know, they are losing control, over 393 00:23:39,000 --> 00:23:42,966 what's being said and the messages that are being, you know, like, spread. 394 00:23:43,300 --> 00:23:47,633 So very quickly they managed to turn the whole thing 395 00:23:47,633 --> 00:23:52,000 against environmental legislation and, came out 396 00:23:52,000 --> 00:23:55,233 with the claim that all of their problems were emanating from, 397 00:23:56,233 --> 00:23:59,833 legislation, which, again, you know, was completely wrong. 398 00:23:59,833 --> 00:24:03,400 As I've said before, all of that, led to, 399 00:24:04,000 --> 00:24:07,833 the European Commission making a decision to reform, 400 00:24:08,400 --> 00:24:11,233 the policy that had been adopted, just, you know, and, 401 00:24:11,233 --> 00:24:13,833 and started to be implemented just a year before. 402 00:24:13,833 --> 00:24:15,800 So, you know, I mean, that was completely, 403 00:24:17,233 --> 00:24:18,500 insane as well, 404 00:24:18,500 --> 00:24:22,733 because there was no evidence that, you know, there was big problems 405 00:24:22,733 --> 00:24:26,966 or not, or because, you know, it was literally just started to be implemented. 406 00:24:27,533 --> 00:24:31,433 And what they did was to basically, I mean, in a nutshell, scrap 407 00:24:31,433 --> 00:24:36,933 all the last greens crumbs from the policy that we're reminded remaining. 408 00:24:36,933 --> 00:24:39,933 And why do I say large green crumbs? 409 00:24:39,933 --> 00:24:44,600 Because what was adopted was far from being enough, for, 410 00:24:45,466 --> 00:24:48,466 helping the farmers with the necessary, transition 411 00:24:48,933 --> 00:24:53,366 that they have to, enact, enact, basically in order to, 412 00:24:53,833 --> 00:24:57,633 to church to be more resilient, to, to the challenges. 413 00:24:57,933 --> 00:25:01,166 So, so, yeah, did this happen? 414 00:25:01,800 --> 00:25:06,200 What was quite shocking with this reform was that there was no public consultation. 415 00:25:06,900 --> 00:25:09,133 There was no impact assessment. 416 00:25:09,133 --> 00:25:12,133 While in theory, you know, I mean, the European Commission, 417 00:25:12,133 --> 00:25:13,766 when they reformed policies, 418 00:25:13,766 --> 00:25:16,233 they should conduct the public consultation 419 00:25:16,233 --> 00:25:18,600 and they should conduct an impact assessment. 420 00:25:18,600 --> 00:25:22,433 They're the only license to a few farm unions. 421 00:25:22,866 --> 00:25:27,700 And, actually, you know, asked some questions to them and, 422 00:25:28,266 --> 00:25:31,600 some of them sent a letter afterwards to say 423 00:25:31,666 --> 00:25:34,800 we've been consulted but not heard. 424 00:25:35,133 --> 00:25:39,000 And this where the Viacom business, the small farmers organization. 425 00:25:39,000 --> 00:25:43,633 So basically they were the ones saying don't cut the environmental part. 426 00:25:43,633 --> 00:25:45,300 You know, that's not the problem. 427 00:25:45,300 --> 00:25:48,933 The problem comes with, you know, no, like the market is more systemic. 428 00:25:48,933 --> 00:25:50,933 We need to tackle the systemic etc.. 429 00:25:50,933 --> 00:25:53,266 But they were not they were not hurt. 430 00:25:53,266 --> 00:25:56,933 So what can I say about the Common Agricultural Policy? 431 00:25:57,633 --> 00:26:01,000 To summarize, I mean, the Common Agricultural Policy 432 00:26:01,000 --> 00:26:02,866 is a policy tool, right? 433 00:26:02,866 --> 00:26:05,466 I mean, it's, it's a political decision. 434 00:26:05,466 --> 00:26:09,666 At the end of the day, it's a pot of money, and politicians can decide 435 00:26:09,700 --> 00:26:11,533 how to use it. 436 00:26:11,533 --> 00:26:16,666 Unfortunately, now, the way I mean, the decisions that are made are not, 437 00:26:17,633 --> 00:26:20,433 you know, for for more sustainable farming, 438 00:26:20,433 --> 00:26:23,433 the way the Common Agricultural Works now 439 00:26:23,833 --> 00:26:26,566 is that it is favoring intensification. 440 00:26:26,566 --> 00:26:30,966 It is pushing for, you know, more larger, larger scale farms 441 00:26:30,966 --> 00:26:35,733 with public money against, you know, natural resources protection. 442 00:26:35,733 --> 00:26:39,900 So, the way the tool per se is not necessarily the right or the wrong 443 00:26:39,900 --> 00:26:43,433 one is what we do with the tool in what we do with the tool today is wrong. 444 00:26:43,666 --> 00:26:46,400 Yes. Thank you for that. 445 00:26:46,400 --> 00:26:50,733 I see farmers in farming potentially being the biggest ally 446 00:26:51,200 --> 00:26:56,400 in restoring nature and, and, and more sustainable practices. 447 00:26:56,400 --> 00:26:59,400 And like you said, this is this is my observation as well, that 448 00:26:59,766 --> 00:27:05,533 there are individual farmers who are doing absolutely fantastic job 449 00:27:05,533 --> 00:27:09,933 in restoring nature and, and in the way of their thinking. 450 00:27:09,933 --> 00:27:13,533 But the problem is they're few far in between these small operation. 451 00:27:14,033 --> 00:27:17,033 And then you have a massive industrial scale operations, 452 00:27:17,500 --> 00:27:19,900 which are basically corporations. 453 00:27:19,900 --> 00:27:22,666 This is not like an environmental. 454 00:27:22,666 --> 00:27:25,900 And they were, with the nature, with the land. 455 00:27:25,933 --> 00:27:28,633 This is this is just a corporate. 456 00:27:28,633 --> 00:27:31,433 Listen, I want to switch gears for a second and, 457 00:27:31,433 --> 00:27:34,333 talk about another the recent issue, 458 00:27:34,333 --> 00:27:38,533 which is lowering the protection status of wolves in Europe 459 00:27:38,833 --> 00:27:41,866 and in fact, for for people like this is this is how we, 460 00:27:42,833 --> 00:27:43,600 get in touch 461 00:27:43,600 --> 00:27:46,800 because I attended eeb conference 462 00:27:46,800 --> 00:27:49,800 or symposium on on that subject. 463 00:27:49,933 --> 00:27:51,833 What is your take? 464 00:27:51,833 --> 00:27:56,633 Because everything is seems to be revolving about human wildlife conflict. 465 00:27:56,633 --> 00:27:57,433 And human wildlife 466 00:27:57,433 --> 00:28:02,333 conflict is one of the big pillars that I'm covering here on the podcast. 467 00:28:02,333 --> 00:28:05,666 So maybe I'm going to ask like a two part question, 468 00:28:06,166 --> 00:28:10,066 and you can pick out whichever part you want to tackle first, in which order. 469 00:28:10,066 --> 00:28:13,133 So the first one is lowering protection 470 00:28:13,133 --> 00:28:16,133 status of wolves in Europe as good as done. 471 00:28:16,466 --> 00:28:19,866 It's just a matter of, you know, cogs turning 472 00:28:19,866 --> 00:28:24,800 and we in fact, going to move them to annex five. 473 00:28:25,233 --> 00:28:30,433 And secondly, what is your perspective on improving this 474 00:28:30,433 --> 00:28:34,333 and better manage human wildlife conflict in Europe? 475 00:28:34,566 --> 00:28:36,033 Yeah. Good questions. 476 00:28:37,500 --> 00:28:38,233 First, 477 00:28:38,233 --> 00:28:41,366 I think it's important to stress and to highlight 478 00:28:41,366 --> 00:28:44,400 that there is no scientific basis 479 00:28:44,700 --> 00:28:47,700 to support the modification of, 480 00:28:48,300 --> 00:28:50,933 the existing legislation and protection 481 00:28:50,933 --> 00:28:53,933 protection statutes of, wolves 482 00:28:54,066 --> 00:28:57,500 and, actually, based on the data 483 00:28:57,533 --> 00:29:00,866 that, are available and which, by the way, and 484 00:29:01,900 --> 00:29:05,733 see maybe a few words about how, how this happened and, yeah. 485 00:29:05,733 --> 00:29:08,733 No, how come that we are close to, 486 00:29:09,000 --> 00:29:13,366 changing the protection statutes of the of the wolves, despite that actually 487 00:29:13,600 --> 00:29:19,466 on it, on the basis of the existing data, the population of force in the EU 488 00:29:19,466 --> 00:29:24,033 are in unfavorable or, inadequate conservation 489 00:29:24,033 --> 00:29:28,833 statutes in six out of seven biotic bio geographical regions. 490 00:29:29,300 --> 00:29:31,666 So this is the data as they are today. 491 00:29:31,666 --> 00:29:33,566 This is what science tells us. 492 00:29:33,566 --> 00:29:37,533 So there is no science reason for changing it. Now. 493 00:29:37,733 --> 00:29:42,433 The motivation that the EU used for, 494 00:29:43,033 --> 00:29:46,400 changing the protection statutes first, that international level. 495 00:29:46,400 --> 00:29:48,200 So that would be through the Berne Convention. 496 00:29:48,200 --> 00:29:51,266 And then the next step would be at EU level, 497 00:29:51,266 --> 00:29:56,766 because the Berne Conventions was what led to the birds and Habitats Directive. 498 00:29:57,033 --> 00:29:57,833 In the EU. 499 00:29:57,833 --> 00:30:01,266 You know, it was a way to basically comply with the international, 500 00:30:02,233 --> 00:30:04,100 rules. 501 00:30:04,100 --> 00:30:07,200 So of course, if should change the Bern convention, then you're likely 502 00:30:07,200 --> 00:30:10,200 to have to change the EU legislation as well. 503 00:30:11,800 --> 00:30:13,366 The reason why the EU 504 00:30:13,366 --> 00:30:18,766 went ahead proposing to change, the protection statues of the wars 505 00:30:18,766 --> 00:30:22,400 under the Berne Convention was because of predation 506 00:30:22,766 --> 00:30:25,766 and the threats to livestock. 507 00:30:26,033 --> 00:30:30,566 As the as the right it so that's that was the main motivation. 508 00:30:30,733 --> 00:30:34,100 But there was another one, which I must say, 509 00:30:35,433 --> 00:30:40,066 can sounds like a joke, but, I'm afraid it is not. 510 00:30:40,066 --> 00:30:43,766 And indeed, the presidents of the European 511 00:30:43,766 --> 00:30:46,766 Commission also have, the lion goddess. 512 00:30:46,766 --> 00:30:50,266 I mean, had her, pony court dolly. 513 00:30:50,300 --> 00:30:53,000 I mean, everybody knows about her. The name of her pony. 514 00:30:53,000 --> 00:30:57,133 Now, it has become a famous pony that got killed, 515 00:30:57,833 --> 00:31:00,300 by a wolf in Germany. 516 00:31:00,300 --> 00:31:01,800 And apparently. 517 00:31:01,800 --> 00:31:03,766 And I'm saying apparently, because, of course, you know, 518 00:31:03,766 --> 00:31:08,433 we are a science based organization and I don't have any proof 519 00:31:08,433 --> 00:31:13,366 or data apart from the news articles and what we've heard, etcetera. 520 00:31:13,800 --> 00:31:17,700 But apparently this was among the motivations 521 00:31:18,033 --> 00:31:22,133 for the president of the European Commission to call for, 522 00:31:22,633 --> 00:31:27,033 modification of the Berne Convention, which would be quite disturbing. 523 00:31:27,033 --> 00:31:27,933 I mean, this is the purse. 524 00:31:27,933 --> 00:31:31,266 I mean, this is, beyond political motivation. 525 00:31:31,266 --> 00:31:35,333 I mean, it's like a personal motivation for someone at such a top level. 526 00:31:35,666 --> 00:31:37,466 This is quite disturbing and messy. 527 00:31:38,533 --> 00:31:41,066 But the way it was framed then, 528 00:31:41,066 --> 00:31:45,200 you know, when the proposal came out, was really talking about the predation. 529 00:31:45,200 --> 00:31:49,066 It even said, which, again, is not scientifically based at all, 530 00:31:49,066 --> 00:31:53,933 that it is becoming a threat to humans as well. Why? 531 00:31:53,933 --> 00:31:56,766 There is no such, you know, evidence out there. 532 00:31:56,766 --> 00:31:59,766 I mean, you know, it's not reported or anything like that. 533 00:32:00,366 --> 00:32:04,833 So it started with the commission making that proposal on the table, 534 00:32:04,833 --> 00:32:09,300 and then it was for the member states to decide whether or not 535 00:32:09,300 --> 00:32:13,733 to support the proposal from the Commission and to put it, 536 00:32:14,233 --> 00:32:17,733 for the Berne Convention, standing committee meeting 537 00:32:17,733 --> 00:32:20,733 that will happen in December, early December. 538 00:32:21,600 --> 00:32:25,000 And there is well, I must say, that's what happened was quite, 539 00:32:25,566 --> 00:32:29,033 disturbing again, politically motivated, etc. 540 00:32:29,033 --> 00:32:32,033 but until the very last moment, there was, 541 00:32:32,433 --> 00:32:35,433 no majority in favor of the, 542 00:32:36,100 --> 00:32:39,933 the commission's proposal, but Germany. 543 00:32:40,833 --> 00:32:43,933 So you wonder again, you know, where the pressure comes from. 544 00:32:43,933 --> 00:32:45,933 Again, you know, I don't have any evidence, 545 00:32:45,933 --> 00:32:48,600 so I don't want to make any claim or anything like that. 546 00:32:48,600 --> 00:32:50,066 I'm just stating the facts here. 547 00:32:50,066 --> 00:32:54,233 It was actually Germany that changed its position. 548 00:32:54,466 --> 00:32:57,900 And after that, because at the beginning, 549 00:32:57,900 --> 00:33:00,900 Germany was not going to support the commission's proposal. 550 00:33:01,033 --> 00:33:04,500 And after that, we so many other countries that, you know, were abstaining 551 00:33:04,533 --> 00:33:07,533 or, you know, which decided to actually to support it, and therefore 552 00:33:07,533 --> 00:33:12,533 we ended up with quite a strong majority in favor of the Commission's proposal. 553 00:33:12,933 --> 00:33:14,866 So that was in September. 554 00:33:14,866 --> 00:33:19,633 And now, given that the EU has, quite a strong voice 555 00:33:19,633 --> 00:33:23,766 in the Berne Convention, it is likely that it will go through in December. 556 00:33:23,766 --> 00:33:28,466 And, now to your question about, you know, like a coexistence 557 00:33:28,466 --> 00:33:31,900 between humans and wildlife being this, 558 00:33:32,133 --> 00:33:37,366 I mean, beyond, this personal stories about, the president's, 559 00:33:37,766 --> 00:33:42,033 poniendo, and and and the wolves, per se. 560 00:33:42,033 --> 00:33:46,633 You know, for me, this is a much bigger problem, 561 00:33:46,633 --> 00:33:51,666 because what that could mean if we then end up reopening, 562 00:33:52,700 --> 00:33:54,033 the EU legislation. 563 00:33:54,033 --> 00:33:57,033 So the so-called birds and habitats Directive, 564 00:33:57,200 --> 00:33:59,866 we do run a high 565 00:33:59,866 --> 00:34:02,866 risk of having other species 566 00:34:03,200 --> 00:34:08,866 that are going to be downgraded without any scientific motivation, given. 567 00:34:08,866 --> 00:34:10,466 That's what's being done. 568 00:34:10,466 --> 00:34:12,966 Now, for the wolf is not based on science. 569 00:34:12,966 --> 00:34:16,300 It's purely politically motivated. 570 00:34:16,833 --> 00:34:19,733 There was there was, as I said, you know, there is this data 571 00:34:19,733 --> 00:34:23,033 plus not just with this data, but the commission when the 572 00:34:23,300 --> 00:34:25,800 when the when the president came with your proposal, 573 00:34:25,800 --> 00:34:29,833 she also asked for services to write a short report, you know, on the 574 00:34:30,066 --> 00:34:31,766 conservation statutes of wolves. 575 00:34:31,766 --> 00:34:35,566 And, and there was no recommendation in that document to actually know 576 00:34:35,566 --> 00:34:38,900 where the, the conservation, statute of the protection 577 00:34:38,900 --> 00:34:41,900 statutes of, of oh, so 578 00:34:42,033 --> 00:34:45,400 it's a very, very bad precedent at a moment 579 00:34:45,400 --> 00:34:48,033 where we need nature more than ever. 580 00:34:48,033 --> 00:34:53,433 We have to emit we have to learn to coexist better with nature. 581 00:34:53,600 --> 00:34:58,266 We need to I mean, we have to restore nature wherever we can. 582 00:34:59,166 --> 00:35:03,033 And we are going, you know, like, backwards on, on, on on that. 583 00:35:03,033 --> 00:35:05,933 I mean, this is extremely, extremely, extremely dangerous. 584 00:35:05,933 --> 00:35:08,733 And it is also extremely dangerous because, 585 00:35:08,733 --> 00:35:12,800 the political context is different than, in the last mandate. 586 00:35:12,800 --> 00:35:14,966 I mean, I talked about the European elections, 587 00:35:14,966 --> 00:35:17,233 the European Parliament elections, and what we're faced 588 00:35:17,233 --> 00:35:22,533 with is a very conservative parliament with also, you know, a large 589 00:35:22,533 --> 00:35:25,533 I mean, a group that, is formed from, from the 590 00:35:25,533 --> 00:35:28,833 the third group is from the far right, you know, in the European Parliament. 591 00:35:30,466 --> 00:35:32,500 That's, you know, 592 00:35:32,500 --> 00:35:36,866 is very using branding, polarization, populist tactics, etc. 593 00:35:36,866 --> 00:35:38,866 and, there is a high likeliness 594 00:35:38,866 --> 00:35:42,033 that, yes, of course, they see a great opportunity with this, 595 00:35:42,766 --> 00:35:45,766 with this reopening of the Birds and Habitats Directive, again, 596 00:35:46,000 --> 00:35:48,933 for political reasons, more than anything. 597 00:35:48,933 --> 00:35:54,033 But this is extremely dangerous because, we cannot afford going backwards on that. 598 00:35:54,033 --> 00:35:57,500 We have to implement better, you know, this piece of legislation 599 00:35:57,500 --> 00:36:00,500 and not to, to dismantle it. 600 00:36:00,800 --> 00:36:06,666 But there is a high risk that, we will and and last point here, all of that. 601 00:36:06,666 --> 00:36:09,333 I mean, because it's not scientifically, motivated. 602 00:36:09,333 --> 00:36:10,766 Far from it. 603 00:36:10,766 --> 00:36:14,900 What we've seen and also, this is what has led to, I think, 604 00:36:15,933 --> 00:36:18,500 the results of the European Parliament elections 605 00:36:18,500 --> 00:36:21,700 and what we see also, I mean, this deregulation threat, etc., 606 00:36:22,233 --> 00:36:25,933 is this flow of disinformation on social media 607 00:36:26,366 --> 00:36:30,933 and of course, on topics like, you know, white lie, force, etc. 608 00:36:31,300 --> 00:36:34,766 you see many of that, and that is extremely dangerous. Yes. 609 00:36:35,433 --> 00:36:37,866 Especially that misinformation aspect of it is, 610 00:36:37,866 --> 00:36:41,966 is really something I consider that the most important to tackle. 611 00:36:43,166 --> 00:36:44,400 So, folks, for you 612 00:36:44,400 --> 00:36:47,366 listening to this, if you're if you're interested in 613 00:36:47,366 --> 00:36:51,633 diving deeper into the issue of the lower lowering wealth protection 614 00:36:51,633 --> 00:36:56,433 status, it's the episode 163 where I had the five experts 615 00:36:56,433 --> 00:36:59,800 on on one episode, presenting different points of view. 616 00:37:00,400 --> 00:37:04,400 And Faustine, if I may, I will I will push back a little bit 617 00:37:04,400 --> 00:37:07,833 or maybe challenge you a little bit on, on this statement, 618 00:37:07,833 --> 00:37:10,833 because on the scientific side of the 619 00:37:11,133 --> 00:37:14,833 what I heard right, I'm not a scientist, but what I heard is 620 00:37:15,466 --> 00:37:18,866 that wolves are incredible 621 00:37:18,866 --> 00:37:21,866 success story in terms of conservation in Europe. 622 00:37:22,233 --> 00:37:26,133 Their their numbers are much higher than they used to be. 623 00:37:27,066 --> 00:37:31,233 And there is opinion that at this point, 624 00:37:31,533 --> 00:37:33,900 because how they're mixing, how they're traveling 625 00:37:33,900 --> 00:37:37,733 between the countries, we should really look at one 626 00:37:37,733 --> 00:37:41,733 European wolf population rather than on those small populations. 627 00:37:42,400 --> 00:37:45,966 And the argument I heard from the scientists was, 628 00:37:46,766 --> 00:37:49,566 why do we have a system of annexes 629 00:37:49,566 --> 00:37:53,033 if they are hijacked into political 630 00:37:53,366 --> 00:37:56,133 fight, wolves recovered. 631 00:37:56,133 --> 00:38:00,033 Therefore there should be move to, annex 632 00:38:00,033 --> 00:38:04,333 five to reflect their recovery, because that's what it is. 633 00:38:04,633 --> 00:38:07,766 While at the moment it is very it's much considerably easier 634 00:38:07,766 --> 00:38:11,766 to uplift the species and to down the species. 635 00:38:11,766 --> 00:38:16,933 There's this this whole procedure, voting and everything else to down list them. 636 00:38:16,933 --> 00:38:22,800 And the argument I heard was like, if we could keep that purely scientific 637 00:38:22,866 --> 00:38:29,166 and make it easier to move the animal up and down in that list, that would take 638 00:38:29,166 --> 00:38:34,500 all that mechanism away from the science, from the political fight. 639 00:38:34,933 --> 00:38:39,166 That's like because right now it is being weaponized for everything that you said. 640 00:38:39,500 --> 00:38:39,833 Right? 641 00:38:39,833 --> 00:38:44,166 The, you know, of all the greenies want to, you know, get this out of business 642 00:38:44,166 --> 00:38:45,333 and all that stuff. 643 00:38:45,333 --> 00:38:50,433 So that would and similar mechanism I notice is in the North America 644 00:38:50,433 --> 00:38:53,666 where again, there are some recovery criteria 645 00:38:53,666 --> 00:38:56,000 where the species should be uplifted and down listed, 646 00:38:56,000 --> 00:38:58,066 and those criteria are met for a number of years. 647 00:38:58,066 --> 00:39:02,433 And let the species is not down listed because of all of their concerns. 648 00:39:02,433 --> 00:39:05,733 And I'm not dismissing the concerns here. 649 00:39:06,033 --> 00:39:08,533 By the way, because obviously, 650 00:39:08,533 --> 00:39:11,533 for all the reasons that you listed, those concerns are there. 651 00:39:11,633 --> 00:39:16,466 And the common theme is like, I had a lady from Estonia who, 652 00:39:16,466 --> 00:39:21,633 as you know, Wolf, is Estonian national animal, and they have 653 00:39:22,800 --> 00:39:23,400 a wolf 654 00:39:23,400 --> 00:39:26,966 management program where they allowing wolf horns and so on. 655 00:39:26,966 --> 00:39:29,733 And she said something like, 656 00:39:29,733 --> 00:39:34,400 I am a wolf lover and I am not happy about those wolves being killed. 657 00:39:34,933 --> 00:39:38,800 But if that's the price for coexistence, I'm willing to pay that. 658 00:39:39,466 --> 00:39:45,100 So I'm just curious of your view on, on on this. 659 00:39:45,100 --> 00:39:49,566 Like on the one hand, why not take the Habitats directive 660 00:39:49,566 --> 00:39:53,833 and all that out of this political struggle and say like, 661 00:39:53,833 --> 00:39:58,633 hey, here are the criteria and the animals are moving up and down as we see 662 00:39:58,633 --> 00:40:02,333 their recovery and the wolf recovered, therefore we should list them down. 663 00:40:02,933 --> 00:40:06,300 And yes, for sure, some wolves will be killed 664 00:40:06,300 --> 00:40:08,300 like they are right now in Switzerland. 665 00:40:08,300 --> 00:40:11,300 I think I think Switzerland is not in the EU, but that's a 666 00:40:11,766 --> 00:40:14,766 but that would be the price for coexistence. 667 00:40:14,833 --> 00:40:18,700 That is curious on your on your view on this 668 00:40:19,166 --> 00:40:23,966 maybe on your point about, splitting the, the, the, the, science, I mean. 669 00:40:24,133 --> 00:40:26,966 Yeah, trying not to politicize that too much. 670 00:40:26,966 --> 00:40:28,566 I mean, I would I would agree with you. 671 00:40:28,566 --> 00:40:32,633 I think it's important to be especially given the context where, you know, and, 672 00:40:33,300 --> 00:40:36,333 I mean, the threat that we see with the European Parliament, 673 00:40:37,766 --> 00:40:38,033 I mean, 674 00:40:38,033 --> 00:40:41,933 composition today and, with this big part of it being, 675 00:40:41,933 --> 00:40:46,833 you know, from populist parties and seeing that as an opportunity to polarize and, 676 00:40:47,400 --> 00:40:50,400 think that this is quite toxic and very dangerous. 677 00:40:50,833 --> 00:40:53,733 And as I said, it's not just about the problems here. 678 00:40:53,733 --> 00:40:57,900 And, and, and this is what I try to point I tried to make is not just 679 00:40:58,266 --> 00:41:02,233 wars is what that would mean in the European context 680 00:41:02,233 --> 00:41:06,333 and the fact that we are going to have a political decision 681 00:41:06,633 --> 00:41:11,166 on something that should be indeed scientifically, motivated 682 00:41:11,366 --> 00:41:15,700 about all the species, you know, in the, in the Birds and Habitats Directive. 683 00:41:15,700 --> 00:41:18,266 And that's not, you know, I mean, that is extremely, 684 00:41:18,266 --> 00:41:20,466 extremely dangerous in the context that we're in. 685 00:41:20,466 --> 00:41:24,133 So, splitting that, you know, would be indeed, 686 00:41:24,233 --> 00:41:27,733 at least, you know, for this Parliament for this term would be the way forward. 687 00:41:27,733 --> 00:41:29,733 I fully, fully agree. 688 00:41:29,733 --> 00:41:32,133 Now on, on, on, canning 689 00:41:32,133 --> 00:41:35,333 and, and, you know, like, besides, 690 00:41:36,633 --> 00:41:39,000 lowering it from strict protection to protection 691 00:41:39,000 --> 00:41:42,033 because, I mean, at the end of the day, the woods will remain protected, right? 692 00:41:42,033 --> 00:41:43,766 I mean, it's from strictly to protect. 693 00:41:43,766 --> 00:41:46,766 So that's also important for people to understand. 694 00:41:47,433 --> 00:41:50,866 That's what we say. 695 00:41:50,866 --> 00:41:52,400 And we haven't found the evidence. 696 00:41:52,400 --> 00:41:55,433 I mean, like, maybe you've heard someone in your podcast 697 00:41:55,433 --> 00:41:59,066 saying otherwise, but there is no scientific evidence that, 698 00:41:59,766 --> 00:42:03,066 culling is the most efficient way to actually, 699 00:42:03,933 --> 00:42:07,500 you know, achieve, a reduction in terms of predation 700 00:42:07,833 --> 00:42:11,133 and actioning what we have read 701 00:42:11,133 --> 00:42:15,033 and what we have been told is that it could even be counterproductive. 702 00:42:15,500 --> 00:42:19,600 So that's also what we we are saying that might not 703 00:42:19,600 --> 00:42:21,433 I mean, you know, this blunt decision 704 00:42:21,433 --> 00:42:25,233 to lower the protection statute might not be the way forward. 705 00:42:25,233 --> 00:42:28,266 And yes, you're right in terms of the numbers overall, etc.. 706 00:42:28,533 --> 00:42:32,733 But again, I mean, it depends maybe like which scientist you are talking to. 707 00:42:32,766 --> 00:42:37,233 I don't know about the scientific evidence as, as we see it is that, 708 00:42:37,833 --> 00:42:42,133 you know, there is no strong justification and even from the Commission services 709 00:42:42,333 --> 00:42:44,666 to go for that option, 710 00:42:44,666 --> 00:42:47,000 especially if we're trying to, to, 711 00:42:47,000 --> 00:42:50,733 to tackle here is the risk of a predation or livestock 712 00:42:51,133 --> 00:42:55,100 coexistence for us should remain, you know, I mean, the way forward. 713 00:42:55,100 --> 00:42:56,500 And again, you know, 714 00:42:56,500 --> 00:42:59,933 as you were saying as well, from from the person that you talk to 715 00:43:00,233 --> 00:43:03,566 and as I said, you know, we're going to move from strictly protected to protected. 716 00:43:03,566 --> 00:43:07,233 So what will stay, you know, and we will have to coexist anyway. 717 00:43:08,733 --> 00:43:11,633 So what we have to do is to double our efforts 718 00:43:11,633 --> 00:43:14,766 in coexistence, efforts, not through 719 00:43:14,766 --> 00:43:18,566 culling, but, you know, through, guardian dogs, 720 00:43:18,566 --> 00:43:21,866 through fences, through, you know, we have programs out there. 721 00:43:21,866 --> 00:43:24,966 You know, in the knife, program, for instance, in Europe 722 00:43:24,966 --> 00:43:27,966 where you have, some money, maybe we need to put more money. 723 00:43:28,233 --> 00:43:31,533 We need to better use the Common Agricultural Policy for now. 724 00:43:31,533 --> 00:43:34,666 You know, it's just a small part of the Common Agricultural Policy 725 00:43:34,666 --> 00:43:38,466 that is useful that because, of course, the bulk of it goes to serious farmers 726 00:43:38,466 --> 00:43:41,566 who do not necessarily need the money, you know, but actually 727 00:43:41,566 --> 00:43:44,900 the shepherds might need the money more, you know, for coexistence. 728 00:43:44,900 --> 00:43:47,300 And and, you know, I'm not sure. 729 00:43:47,300 --> 00:43:49,500 Of course, again, this is maybe personal here, 730 00:43:49,500 --> 00:43:53,700 but I'm not sure that an it when, when the, the the large farming unions 731 00:43:53,700 --> 00:43:58,300 are actually going against, you know, the wars and, and, in favor 732 00:43:58,300 --> 00:44:01,500 of lowering the protection statutes that they really care 733 00:44:01,500 --> 00:44:04,533 so much about it because most of it, you know, are serious farmers 734 00:44:04,533 --> 00:44:08,333 and it's not really a problem for them, but it's more about the money issue. 735 00:44:08,333 --> 00:44:12,533 And they don't they don't necessarily want the money to be used for coexistence 736 00:44:12,533 --> 00:44:17,233 measures, you know, and taken away from, their direct payments or, you know, so, 737 00:44:18,333 --> 00:44:21,100 I think, you know, maybe some people should think twice about that. 738 00:44:21,100 --> 00:44:23,233 And also something that, 739 00:44:23,233 --> 00:44:27,200 I've been thinking about, if you do, you know where I mean to be seen. 740 00:44:27,200 --> 00:44:30,200 But, the protection statutes of wars. 741 00:44:30,966 --> 00:44:34,533 What does that mean for this coexistence measures and this money? 742 00:44:34,533 --> 00:44:39,366 I mean, are we going to keep, spending or will it still be available? 743 00:44:39,800 --> 00:44:43,400 I mean, that pot of money for coexistence or not? 744 00:44:43,400 --> 00:44:46,233 Because, I mean, in theory, you will have alternatives like culling. 745 00:44:46,233 --> 00:44:48,766 So there will be less justification 746 00:44:48,766 --> 00:44:52,200 for using public money for fences, for guardian dogs, etc.. 747 00:44:52,200 --> 00:44:57,033 So I think that this should also, you know, like be part of the discussion and, 748 00:44:57,033 --> 00:45:01,366 and people should think, I mean, shepherds and, should think about that as well. 749 00:45:01,866 --> 00:45:04,666 I'm, I'm not 100% sure about what that would mean, 750 00:45:04,666 --> 00:45:07,700 but that would have consequences for sure, because there will be alternatives, 751 00:45:07,700 --> 00:45:08,933 because today 752 00:45:08,933 --> 00:45:12,366 you had that money, you had this program because you're not allowed. 753 00:45:12,500 --> 00:45:14,466 Yeah. No, to, to kill them. 754 00:45:14,466 --> 00:45:18,000 So, yeah, that's a that's an excellent point for seed. And, 755 00:45:18,966 --> 00:45:20,066 you know, I know good and 756 00:45:20,066 --> 00:45:23,266 well that on the wolves we could do like a three hour straight discussion. 757 00:45:23,266 --> 00:45:26,266 And, and for anyone who is interested to just go to my website, 758 00:45:26,266 --> 00:45:29,666 Tommy souders.com and type Wolf or Wolf's 759 00:45:29,666 --> 00:45:32,666 into the search box and you'll find a lot of materials in there. 760 00:45:32,833 --> 00:45:36,300 And by the way, I think the important point that you made 761 00:45:36,333 --> 00:45:41,400 is that calling is not I actually I think right. 762 00:45:41,400 --> 00:45:42,133 That's my opinion. 763 00:45:42,133 --> 00:45:46,133 It's not meant to fix the problem with depredation. 764 00:45:47,233 --> 00:45:51,233 Or, you know, coexistence in, in the matter of like, 765 00:45:51,300 --> 00:45:56,033 in the biological sense, it is more of a, in a social sciences 766 00:45:56,733 --> 00:46:00,800 realm of, you know, people giving agency to people 767 00:46:00,800 --> 00:46:04,433 to do something, whether that's correct or not, that's a different discussion. 768 00:46:04,433 --> 00:46:06,900 And and like I said, we had these discussions 769 00:46:06,900 --> 00:46:10,066 on, on many times on the podcast for scene. 770 00:46:10,100 --> 00:46:14,600 I just want to switch gears again to final big item, 771 00:46:14,933 --> 00:46:20,266 current item, nature restoration law, where it is at the moment. 772 00:46:20,266 --> 00:46:23,966 Again, that's something that we covered on the podcast a few times with farmers 773 00:46:23,966 --> 00:46:28,066 and with, you know, green politicians. 774 00:46:28,433 --> 00:46:30,133 Let's come up that way. 775 00:46:30,133 --> 00:46:32,433 Different points of view were presented already. 776 00:46:32,433 --> 00:46:38,200 I am more interested now where we're at with nature restoration law. 777 00:46:38,866 --> 00:46:42,266 How much it was stripped from the original ambitious plans. 778 00:46:42,266 --> 00:46:44,900 Is it still fit for purpose, or is it? 779 00:46:44,900 --> 00:46:46,233 Yeah. Where are we? 780 00:46:46,233 --> 00:46:48,433 So, good news is that, 781 00:46:49,533 --> 00:46:52,533 it went for it got adopted. So. 782 00:46:52,700 --> 00:46:55,700 And that was not a given. 783 00:46:55,933 --> 00:46:59,433 Because again, you know, it was heavily politicized. 784 00:47:00,100 --> 00:47:02,833 It was, happening, 785 00:47:02,833 --> 00:47:06,266 before the European, Parliament election and, 786 00:47:07,366 --> 00:47:12,200 it was instrumentalized quite a lot, for the sake of polarization and, 787 00:47:12,366 --> 00:47:16,200 you know, old tactics, of course, but that can be extremely damaging. 788 00:47:16,200 --> 00:47:19,933 So, and I must say there, the hero, really 789 00:47:20,133 --> 00:47:22,933 a hero, is, 790 00:47:22,933 --> 00:47:25,933 the Austrian, environment minister. 791 00:47:27,066 --> 00:47:29,133 She's my hero. 792 00:47:29,133 --> 00:47:31,000 But and also 793 00:47:31,000 --> 00:47:34,000 because she put her, I mean, her own, 794 00:47:34,433 --> 00:47:39,900 political career, in, in doing that, she did stand, 795 00:47:40,800 --> 00:47:44,733 for the, for the, for the nature restoration law in the council. 796 00:47:45,866 --> 00:47:48,100 And wonder what she was under pressure. 797 00:47:48,100 --> 00:47:48,766 Of course. 798 00:47:48,766 --> 00:47:53,966 And, and and she did it not for political reasons, but because she 799 00:47:54,300 --> 00:47:58,600 does believe that, you know, that's the only way forward, for our survival. 800 00:47:58,600 --> 00:47:59,966 And the one of her children. 801 00:48:01,300 --> 00:48:04,666 So, Pavel, really and, 802 00:48:05,533 --> 00:48:09,233 and it so it went through in the council defender until the last minute. 803 00:48:09,233 --> 00:48:09,500 Really? 804 00:48:09,500 --> 00:48:12,366 We thought that the council would kill it basically. 805 00:48:12,366 --> 00:48:13,800 Then the we had a big battle. 806 00:48:13,800 --> 00:48:15,866 And in the countries where you have the member states 807 00:48:15,866 --> 00:48:18,433 and we already had a big battle in the European Parliament 808 00:48:18,433 --> 00:48:20,000 where you have the members of the Parliament 809 00:48:20,000 --> 00:48:23,133 who are directly elected by by citizens of the EU. 810 00:48:23,766 --> 00:48:28,133 And there as well, we had to fight really, really hard to, to, to, 811 00:48:28,166 --> 00:48:29,033 to get it through. 812 00:48:29,033 --> 00:48:32,166 But we managed, eventually. 813 00:48:33,000 --> 00:48:35,333 Now about what's left from it. 814 00:48:35,333 --> 00:48:41,000 Of course, it's not as ambitious as what the commission, initially put on the table 815 00:48:41,000 --> 00:48:44,300 that the targets are there, when it comes to, 816 00:48:46,033 --> 00:48:48,266 you know, restoration, 817 00:48:48,266 --> 00:48:51,266 farmland and, it's not as, 818 00:48:51,266 --> 00:48:56,433 ambitious as, it was proposed, but, it ended up being slightly better 819 00:48:56,433 --> 00:49:00,933 than what the parliament, you know, tried to, to, to, to, to, to get to. 820 00:49:01,300 --> 00:49:03,133 So overall, it's great. 821 00:49:03,133 --> 00:49:04,933 It has been adopted. 822 00:49:04,933 --> 00:49:08,733 Now it's all about implementation and it's where it's 823 00:49:08,733 --> 00:49:12,333 difficult because, you know, I've said at the beginning of our chat that, 824 00:49:12,866 --> 00:49:17,333 we do have, several pieces of environmental legislations out there. 825 00:49:17,333 --> 00:49:19,200 Some of them have been there for decades. 826 00:49:20,433 --> 00:49:22,400 The problem often lies with 827 00:49:22,400 --> 00:49:26,266 implementation and the lack of implementation from member states. 828 00:49:26,266 --> 00:49:29,633 There are many cases, you know, we call them infringement case 829 00:49:29,633 --> 00:49:33,066 IT procedures, you know, that are ongoing, 830 00:49:33,800 --> 00:49:36,800 the EU against the member states because they are not implementing the law. 831 00:49:37,366 --> 00:49:39,933 Now, what the member states will have to do for the nature 832 00:49:39,933 --> 00:49:43,133 restoration law is to set their, national plans. 833 00:49:43,133 --> 00:49:48,366 How, how this is going to go, of course, is, of paramount importance. 834 00:49:48,366 --> 00:49:50,766 I mean, it has to be transparent. 835 00:49:50,766 --> 00:49:54,666 They need to involve, stakeholders, civil society, conservationists, 836 00:49:54,666 --> 00:49:57,666 you know, of course, farmers, etc., etc., etc. 837 00:49:57,866 --> 00:50:00,700 it has to go fast because there is no time to, 838 00:50:00,700 --> 00:50:05,300 to lose the problem I see, is that again, 839 00:50:05,500 --> 00:50:10,500 the commission sets quite a bad precedent, which was happening around the walls 840 00:50:10,500 --> 00:50:13,533 and the Birds and Habitats Directive potentially because, you know, 841 00:50:13,533 --> 00:50:16,533 the nature restoration rule and the Birds and Habitats Directive. 842 00:50:16,766 --> 00:50:20,133 I mean, there is a reference to each of them in, in, in both. 843 00:50:20,133 --> 00:50:21,133 Right. 844 00:50:21,133 --> 00:50:24,133 So one can then argue that, 845 00:50:24,133 --> 00:50:28,733 if we do, amend the Birds and Habitats Directive that things should be put on 846 00:50:28,733 --> 00:50:32,900 hold for the nature restoration, and also I see a political risk of that, 847 00:50:33,300 --> 00:50:36,033 and I would not be surprised that in a future podcast, 848 00:50:36,033 --> 00:50:40,466 you know, you start talking about that because I see that some politicians 849 00:50:40,466 --> 00:50:44,466 have seen, you know, the breach and, will use that. 850 00:50:44,500 --> 00:50:45,600 They have a plan. 851 00:50:45,600 --> 00:50:47,966 Yeah, I would, I mean, I would not be surprised. 852 00:50:47,966 --> 00:50:49,933 So that's that's one. 853 00:50:49,933 --> 00:50:53,533 And the other one is you might have heard I don't know whether that's something 854 00:50:53,533 --> 00:50:57,600 you also covered in your podcast, but on the EU deforestation, 855 00:50:58,666 --> 00:50:59,266 law, you 856 00:50:59,266 --> 00:51:02,700 know, which was also a, a big achievement, under the, 857 00:51:03,033 --> 00:51:07,000 the from the last mandate and the, the so-called Green Deal 858 00:51:07,366 --> 00:51:11,166 that, the commission decided to postpone its implementation. 859 00:51:11,533 --> 00:51:16,300 And, of course, when you start doing that, then you open a Pandora's 860 00:51:16,300 --> 00:51:21,633 box for other pieces of laws to be postponed, in their implementation. 861 00:51:21,633 --> 00:51:27,366 So I haven't seen strong pushes yet, but I would not be surprised that, 862 00:51:28,166 --> 00:51:30,700 there will be pushes for delays, 863 00:51:30,700 --> 00:51:33,666 in the implementation of the nature restoration. 864 00:51:33,666 --> 00:51:36,666 So this is where organizations like mine, 865 00:51:37,500 --> 00:51:40,600 matters a lot because our members at national level, 866 00:51:40,600 --> 00:51:44,266 you know, have a strong role to play, making sure that 867 00:51:44,900 --> 00:51:47,566 the member states are working on their plans, 868 00:51:47,566 --> 00:51:52,900 that they are doing so in a, a transparent manner, that they are, 869 00:51:53,133 --> 00:51:58,200 consulting with the relevant stakeholders, of course, using, science as the basis. 870 00:51:58,566 --> 00:52:01,566 And we will put pressure, of course, here on the commission, 871 00:52:02,266 --> 00:52:03,933 to push the member states and, 872 00:52:04,900 --> 00:52:06,700 push back if, you know, there 873 00:52:06,700 --> 00:52:09,700 is any, sign that, 874 00:52:09,900 --> 00:52:12,633 there would be delays or things like that. 875 00:52:12,633 --> 00:52:15,966 But all of that to say that, nature restoration law has that no 876 00:52:15,966 --> 00:52:20,300 has gone through, but now it's all about implementation and it's as important 877 00:52:20,300 --> 00:52:23,933 as all the battles that we had for the road to actually get adopted. 878 00:52:24,400 --> 00:52:28,900 Because what matters eventually is the pronunciation or how to speak 879 00:52:29,433 --> 00:52:33,500 to policymakers to ensure 880 00:52:33,500 --> 00:52:37,166 that the scientific evidence is properly taken to account. 881 00:52:37,533 --> 00:52:40,300 You know, and that is a question that I can personalize. 882 00:52:40,300 --> 00:52:42,133 For you and for the listeners. 883 00:52:42,133 --> 00:52:45,366 That was on the on the one of the environmental conferences. 884 00:52:45,433 --> 00:52:47,633 I'm going to tell us quite often. 885 00:52:47,633 --> 00:52:52,533 And there was a dinner after that, and I happened to sit next to a gentleman 886 00:52:52,533 --> 00:52:56,800 who was a director in some organizations that are he is essentially policymaker. 887 00:52:57,333 --> 00:53:00,633 And after a few glasses of wine or beer, 888 00:53:01,366 --> 00:53:06,500 as I oh, you know, those scientists, they have no idea about writing policy 889 00:53:06,900 --> 00:53:10,833 because this and I was listening, you know, everything was like friendly 890 00:53:10,833 --> 00:53:12,200 and professional. 891 00:53:12,200 --> 00:53:14,166 But I was like thinking like, man, 892 00:53:14,166 --> 00:53:17,200 it's not like scientists doesn't know about policy writing. 893 00:53:17,200 --> 00:53:20,200 Like they talk, they reporting on the facts. 894 00:53:20,666 --> 00:53:25,533 And so, it was clear to me that on the one hand, the job of a policymaker 895 00:53:25,533 --> 00:53:30,533 is ensure that their boss is electable in the next election cycle. 896 00:53:31,200 --> 00:53:35,633 But then, on the other hand, this is what this is what it boils down 897 00:53:35,633 --> 00:53:40,700 to hard decisions like we not making right decisions because they're hard. 898 00:53:41,900 --> 00:53:44,533 How to I was wondering 899 00:53:44,533 --> 00:53:47,900 I'm wondering to that point like how should I talk to this gentleman, 900 00:53:48,666 --> 00:53:52,233 which I'm trying to make it like a more general question to you. 901 00:53:52,233 --> 00:53:55,533 They know how to speak with policymakers 902 00:53:56,433 --> 00:54:01,033 to, yeah, ensure that they're taking the scientific evidence 903 00:54:01,400 --> 00:54:06,466 into account with more then, you know, the the pressures of their job 904 00:54:06,466 --> 00:54:09,466 and to do the good job for their organization. 905 00:54:09,633 --> 00:54:13,166 I think and the problem is that the political mandates are often short, 906 00:54:13,766 --> 00:54:14,433 short term. 907 00:54:14,433 --> 00:54:18,166 And, therefore, you know, I mean, all the scientific evidence that they get, 908 00:54:18,933 --> 00:54:22,833 they don't really care because it's longer term than their political mandate. 909 00:54:22,833 --> 00:54:26,966 And they know that by favoring, you know, like parts, in certain sectors, 910 00:54:26,966 --> 00:54:29,433 you know, by giving them gifts or something like that, 911 00:54:29,433 --> 00:54:31,100 they will actually get reelected, won 912 00:54:31,100 --> 00:54:33,566 by doing something that is for the public interest. 913 00:54:33,566 --> 00:54:34,333 The overall, 914 00:54:34,333 --> 00:54:37,400 you know, it will take ten years for the thing to actually materialize and, 915 00:54:37,633 --> 00:54:38,400 they won't get, 916 00:54:39,466 --> 00:54:41,633 ratified, you know, or, for that. 917 00:54:41,633 --> 00:54:43,300 So, that's that's the prime. 918 00:54:43,300 --> 00:54:47,500 So that's why you need heroes like, the vest, Larry, you know that, minister 919 00:54:47,500 --> 00:54:51,333 who, listened to science and did it for all survivor. 920 00:54:52,166 --> 00:54:54,400 But I think what's what can help is really 921 00:54:54,400 --> 00:54:57,533 to frame it in terms of the cost of inaction more and more. 922 00:54:57,533 --> 00:55:00,533 And I think this should be actually part of, 923 00:55:00,866 --> 00:55:04,066 impact assessments, because it is not so much now. 924 00:55:04,066 --> 00:55:08,033 And that's quite, shocking because what you will hear from 925 00:55:08,033 --> 00:55:11,700 a specific sector that would be impacted by any sort of transition, 926 00:55:12,133 --> 00:55:12,966 and, and, 927 00:55:12,966 --> 00:55:16,866 very, you know, I mean, I understand and, yes, there are costs to the transition 928 00:55:16,866 --> 00:55:20,166 and some are more affected than others, especially, you know, the ones that, 929 00:55:20,733 --> 00:55:22,666 now benefit from this, that you quote. 930 00:55:22,666 --> 00:55:23,800 Right. 931 00:55:23,800 --> 00:55:28,000 But if you do, then start looking at the cost of inaction and puts it 932 00:55:28,000 --> 00:55:31,733 really, you know, like in your thinking, then you know, this 933 00:55:32,266 --> 00:55:36,766 long term benefits can become more shorts, short term ones in the sense 934 00:55:36,766 --> 00:55:41,033 that you see what are the cost on the short term of not acting and not, 935 00:55:41,733 --> 00:55:47,066 making, you know, not pushing for, for, for the changes that, that are necessary. 936 00:55:47,066 --> 00:55:49,333 So I think that this, this is, this is, 937 00:55:50,633 --> 00:55:53,166 a useful, 938 00:55:53,166 --> 00:55:57,300 narrative and, and a useful thing to, to hunger more and more. 939 00:55:57,300 --> 00:56:00,300 And there are more and more figures which are quite, 940 00:56:01,566 --> 00:56:04,800 shocking on the cost of, of inaction. 941 00:56:04,800 --> 00:56:10,033 And, I think that really politicians, should be made much more aware of that. 942 00:56:10,033 --> 00:56:13,566 And, and maybe then science will really speak to them. 943 00:56:14,366 --> 00:56:15,800 Because it would be quantified 944 00:56:15,800 --> 00:56:19,233 in terms of their economic terms and also look more short term, 945 00:56:20,466 --> 00:56:23,466 in terms of gains, you know, benefits. 946 00:56:23,500 --> 00:56:26,100 Then then it might sound, without 947 00:56:26,100 --> 00:56:29,133 having this cost of inaction, you know, being factored in. 948 00:56:29,500 --> 00:56:33,933 So, but maybe another thing and sorry, here, it's a bit of, the, 949 00:56:34,966 --> 00:56:40,533 definition, which I found has worked, because something I didn't say. 950 00:56:40,533 --> 00:56:45,200 And, I want you to to mention it here because I think it's a success story. 951 00:56:45,200 --> 00:56:48,100 And it's also nice to to have positiveness. 952 00:56:48,100 --> 00:56:50,733 Oh, excellent. Something positive. Yes, yes. 953 00:56:52,300 --> 00:56:53,133 On agriculture 954 00:56:53,133 --> 00:56:56,133 and, it's more process wise than anything. 955 00:56:56,400 --> 00:56:59,866 As for now, but still, I was part personally, 956 00:57:00,333 --> 00:57:02,933 of the so-called strategic 957 00:57:02,933 --> 00:57:05,933 dialog on the future of agriculture, 958 00:57:06,333 --> 00:57:09,633 which was set by the president of the European Commission 959 00:57:09,633 --> 00:57:13,100 as a response also to the demonstrations 960 00:57:13,100 --> 00:57:16,100 and, polarization, etc.. 961 00:57:16,133 --> 00:57:20,100 So she decided to put a number of people around the table for seven months, 962 00:57:20,666 --> 00:57:24,966 and we had to spend hours every months, you know, together 963 00:57:24,966 --> 00:57:28,200 and in between the meetings as when in breakout groups, etc., 964 00:57:28,766 --> 00:57:33,700 and to agree on, some recommendations for the future of, 965 00:57:34,533 --> 00:57:37,266 food systems in general 966 00:57:37,266 --> 00:57:40,466 and around the table there was people like me, 967 00:57:40,466 --> 00:57:45,266 but also from Birdseye, from Greenpeace, but also the president of Copa, 968 00:57:45,266 --> 00:57:48,266 the presence of Gojek, for drawing Europe, 969 00:57:49,233 --> 00:57:51,033 land owners, 970 00:57:51,033 --> 00:57:55,533 small farmers, young farmers, organic farmers, but also the traders, 971 00:57:55,966 --> 00:58:01,133 the retainers, etc., fertilizers Europe and so, as you can 972 00:58:01,133 --> 00:58:04,766 imagine, people that I see often here, but I don't always agree with, 973 00:58:05,766 --> 00:58:06,600 you know what? 974 00:58:06,600 --> 00:58:09,966 That's what a democracy, I guess, in that format. 975 00:58:10,866 --> 00:58:13,866 Which was quite high level and, you know, like, 976 00:58:14,066 --> 00:58:17,600 with a chair who was not at all, from the agriculture sectors. 977 00:58:17,600 --> 00:58:20,600 And he was a philosopher, actually, German philosopher. 978 00:58:21,466 --> 00:58:24,066 The first success is that 979 00:58:24,066 --> 00:58:27,933 we did manage to reach a consensus, and it was consensus based, 980 00:58:27,933 --> 00:58:31,166 and that was the only way to go, actually, to do it via consensus. 981 00:58:31,166 --> 00:58:32,900 Because, you know, like majority, etc.. 982 00:58:32,900 --> 00:58:35,933 I mean, it would not have had no weight, nothing, you know, 983 00:58:36,733 --> 00:58:38,366 so we managed to reach a consensus. 984 00:58:38,366 --> 00:58:40,533 That's the second thing. 985 00:58:40,533 --> 00:58:44,966 And that's what's even more successful is that this consensus is actually full 986 00:58:44,966 --> 00:58:49,533 of meaningful recommendations for the future of agriculture. 987 00:58:50,533 --> 00:58:52,000 Just to list a few. 988 00:58:52,000 --> 00:58:55,033 And again, you have to bear in mind that you had all of these actors 989 00:58:55,033 --> 00:58:57,933 with different backgrounds, different opinions, perception. 990 00:58:57,933 --> 00:59:00,033 And as we know, perception is reality. 991 00:59:00,033 --> 00:59:02,533 You know, in, in, in the room. 992 00:59:02,533 --> 00:59:05,833 So we had this diverse set of, of of people. 993 00:59:06,700 --> 00:59:09,000 We start by saying that statue 994 00:59:09,000 --> 00:59:12,433 is no longer an option and that time for change is now. 995 00:59:12,433 --> 00:59:18,600 And so we do say that we need that system change in, in the food, sector, which 996 00:59:19,533 --> 00:59:20,533 for some 997 00:59:20,533 --> 00:59:24,400 has never been, you know, like set in, in such a strong way. 998 00:59:24,400 --> 00:59:26,800 So that's already something. 999 00:59:26,800 --> 00:59:29,800 And then we go on and say things like, 1000 00:59:30,633 --> 00:59:34,233 I mean, right, things like, we need to implement 1001 00:59:34,233 --> 00:59:37,500 and enforce existing a vibrant energy station. 1002 00:59:37,500 --> 00:59:40,233 And we do refer to the nature restoration. 1003 00:59:40,233 --> 00:59:44,500 So if ever, you know, like somewhere around the table, 1004 00:59:44,733 --> 00:59:49,366 we're now lobbying against, the nature restoration rules, or delaying, 1005 00:59:49,366 --> 00:59:51,633 you know, this nature restoration or that would be against 1006 00:59:51,633 --> 00:59:54,700 the spirit of that consensus that we reached all together. 1007 00:59:55,933 --> 00:59:59,933 But we also called for big change in the Common Agricultural policy, 1008 01:00:00,233 --> 01:00:03,033 like moving away from direct payments 1009 01:00:03,033 --> 01:00:06,566 and, saying that the Common Agricultural Policy 1010 01:00:06,600 --> 01:00:09,600 should target the farmers who are most in need, 1011 01:00:09,766 --> 01:00:13,166 because today, indeed, I mean, as you know, 80% of the money goes 1012 01:00:13,166 --> 01:00:16,466 to 20% of the farmers and not necessarily the ones who really need it, 1013 01:00:17,366 --> 01:00:19,500 and that we should also, and 1014 01:00:20,433 --> 01:00:23,266 improve our, the environmental schemes, 1015 01:00:23,266 --> 01:00:26,133 under the policy and that this should grow, you know, 1016 01:00:26,133 --> 01:00:30,066 like proportionally become like a larger and larger part of the policy. 1017 01:00:30,066 --> 01:00:32,466 And be targeted, 1018 01:00:32,466 --> 01:00:35,700 you know, to results more than practices. 1019 01:00:35,700 --> 01:00:38,633 So that's, that's another thing and another big thing, 1020 01:00:38,633 --> 01:00:42,200 which was not at all the topic of, today's discussion, but, Oh. 1021 01:00:42,200 --> 01:00:46,433 And on the there is also a line which calls for coexistence. 1022 01:00:47,133 --> 01:00:48,333 Excellent. Yes. 1023 01:00:48,333 --> 01:00:53,466 Yeah, yeah, I can send you the I do answer if you want to put it as a note here. 1024 01:00:53,466 --> 01:00:54,733 Oh yes. Yes, we will do it. 1025 01:00:54,733 --> 01:00:55,233 We'll do that. 1026 01:00:55,233 --> 01:00:56,900 I'll do that with links in the description. 1027 01:00:56,900 --> 01:00:57,566 Perfect. Yep. 1028 01:00:57,566 --> 01:00:57,933 Yeah. 1029 01:00:57,933 --> 01:01:00,933 And it also calls for changing consumption. 1030 01:01:00,933 --> 01:01:01,566 Behaviors. 1031 01:01:01,566 --> 01:01:03,033 You know, as I said at the beginning, 1032 01:01:03,033 --> 01:01:06,033 the only way to tackle production is to tackle consumption. 1033 01:01:06,100 --> 01:01:11,333 And it also talk about something that, of course, is heavily, heavily polarized. 1034 01:01:11,333 --> 01:01:16,300 And, where you see that science, is not recognized by some 1035 01:01:16,800 --> 01:01:20,900 is the need to reduce our animal protein consumption. 1036 01:01:21,100 --> 01:01:23,700 And there is a there is a sentence on that, of course. 1037 01:01:23,700 --> 01:01:25,966 It's it's a curve. I mean, you know, it's well balanced. 1038 01:01:25,966 --> 01:01:30,233 It talks about the trend and that the EU should support the trend etc.. 1039 01:01:30,466 --> 01:01:32,866 But it's there. It's there and it refers to the 1040 01:01:32,866 --> 01:01:35,133 to the scientific consensus that there is on that. 1041 01:01:35,133 --> 01:01:36,800 So it was possible. 1042 01:01:36,800 --> 01:01:41,433 I mean what why I refer to that is sometimes, you know, 1043 01:01:41,433 --> 01:01:46,633 and when people around the table are really willing to reach a consensus 1044 01:01:46,833 --> 01:01:51,900 when there was also a scientist around the table from England University 1045 01:01:52,366 --> 01:01:53,400 at the beginning, you know, 1046 01:01:53,400 --> 01:01:57,200 I really thought that we would never reach a consensus because people would stick 1047 01:01:57,433 --> 01:02:00,933 to their position, not listen to the others, not listen to science, etc. 1048 01:02:01,266 --> 01:02:02,600 but it was a process. 1049 01:02:02,600 --> 01:02:06,600 And, eventually we got, a very interesting results. 1050 01:02:06,600 --> 01:02:11,666 And, now it's for the decision makers to, to use that, and, 1051 01:02:12,033 --> 01:02:16,266 to come up with the proposals, you know, based on this, historic consensus. 1052 01:02:16,600 --> 01:02:20,033 Well, I feel like this is a great moment to finish that podcast 1053 01:02:20,033 --> 01:02:21,600 on the good news for Austin. 1054 01:02:21,600 --> 01:02:23,833 You were ahead of me because I want to ask. 1055 01:02:23,833 --> 01:02:27,033 I wanted to ask you about something positive to end with. 1056 01:02:27,033 --> 01:02:29,400 And you were already one step ahead before me. 1057 01:02:29,400 --> 01:02:32,900 Folks, if you enjoying this podcast, if you're interested in topics 1058 01:02:32,900 --> 01:02:36,933 like that, you should definitely subscribe to my newsletter newsletter 1059 01:02:36,933 --> 01:02:38,566 dot Tommy souders.com. 1060 01:02:38,566 --> 01:02:40,466 The link is in the description of the show. 1061 01:02:40,466 --> 01:02:44,100 As long as as well as some other links for Steen. 1062 01:02:44,100 --> 01:02:45,433 Thank you so much for your time. 1063 01:02:45,433 --> 01:02:47,366 Really appreciate it. Great conversation. 1064 01:02:47,366 --> 01:02:48,566 You're welcome. Thank you.