Hello, everyone, and welcome to another episode of respecting the beer. My name is Gary aren't with me again is the brewer himself. Bobby Fleshman. How are you doing, sir?

Doing well. Thanks, Gary.

And once again, we have Joel Hermansen and we're going to be talking more about beer history. We talked about the ancient origins of beer. A lot of that we speculate it's based on archeology. It's based on what we can piece together you know, from, from what they've found, and it's always kind of changing. We always find something different, a bit older. Today we're going to be coming a little bit closer in history. We're going to be talking about the history of beer as it pertains to Europe, because when we think of beer, we really think of it as at least the modern variant that we drink as having come from Europe and in particular, Northern Europe. Why don't we start with maybe, I don't know, the collapse of the Western Roman Empire? Because that was really kind of the change and it was, if, if that, if it was to be like a Star Wars episode, it would be the rise of the Germans.

And this, I was going to kind of lead into it a little bit by saying, why did we land on barley? It could have been any one of these sources of cereal grain and I think that's part of the story here.

Yeah. No, absolutely. Thanks for having me back, by the way. So, one of the, the major turning points in brewing occurs, as you were saying, after the fall of the Roman Empire. And I think it really has to do with the fact that, Rome had been the gluten that had kept Europe together. And when that collapsed one of the things that began to fill that void was you know, obviously the early Christian church, and one of the things that stands out about that was the establishment of, the Benedictine monasteries throughout Europe. And one of the key, so significant elements of that monastic movement was the fact that they placed such a great emphasis on hospitality. So if somebody would travel to a region and need a place to stay, you know, that they would be able to go to a monastery or an abbey and they might be able to rest and whatnot. And the expectation of That monastic order was that you provided them with a meal and, and, and oftentimes beer. So the monks at these monastic orders brewed and they brewed quite a bit and still do, and over time they got really, really good at it.

Why don't we have a nonprofit like that, right? In Appleton? Yes. That you just show up and they feed you and give you beer.

Right. It's time to start a new religion. Or just start a chapter.

So I, to me, that's kind of where this, when I think about the story of European beer, I don't think you can tell it without that as the context. And this isn't something that's, you know, just isolated to one area. This becomes kind of a, a, a continental movement, you know, where there's these monasteries all throughout Europe. Germany, Belgium, there were monasteries in France that did this as well. you know, the, the geographic fact is that Northern Europe is far more effective in producing cereal grains than Southern Europe, which we touched on in the ninth episode. And you know, when you kind of put these two forces together, it's pretty easy to see, you know, if this was a Star Wars crawl and, and we're talking about the origins of beer, That's, that's the first thing that's going to be rolling down that, that crawl is that, you know, the, these monasteries were places that produced beer for the extension of hospitality.

In, in a previous episode, we started talking about the different types of beer. You know, loggers, builders, things like that. These monasteries were spread out all over. How much did they have to do with the creation of the different types of beers that arose?

Well, for that, I think we can actually, thank the Vikings. The Vikings, in many respects, are responsible for the, the Dark Ages, if you will, that period of time in which Europeans had, you know, if you had traveled 10 miles from your home as a European, you were a, you were the Gary Arndt of your day, you were a global traveler. Because everybody was so terrified of the Vikings and the havoc that they were wreaking throughout Northern Europe. So people would cluster into those feudal estates. Well, each feudal estate had its own brewery. Each feudal estate had its own brewing system, its own brewers. They had grain production. They used their own recipes. They used their own, what was called gruit, which was kind of that, that bag of aromatics that they would use to

Before hopping was, the preferred.

Right. So I think every region of Europe was kind of forced to develop independently. And again, I, to me, that's always one of the cool stories of, of beer is that you have two, two B, you know, two regions adjacent to each other producing, you know, different, totally different beers. You know, the story, and this is getting way ahead of ourselves, but the story of, of Kulsh beers and Alt beers. You know, produce. Just a short distance away And they have

fantastically different opinions about each other or yes the same, but it opposite yeah.

Yes, and they're and they're both excellent and fabulous. Yeah, so I think all all around Europe They develop their own brewing persona Based on what they could do locally and for some people that was, you know, using blueberries and raspberries and the beer as, as a, a sweetening agent and some parts it, maybe was, was using early hops. We're going to talk more about our favorite Benedictine Abbess Hildy, I would imagine in a few minutes, but everybody had developed their own persona.

I should say on that. I was in Cologne once and saw on the wall a cartoon. I couldn't read it, but I could understand what it was saying. And it was a cartoon of someone having drank an alt beer and pissing it out into a latrine. And that, that would have been the, or maybe I had this in reverse it. Yeah. I've seen the graphic. It's a Dortmund. Yeah. It was, it was a Dortmund. It was, that's right. Yeah. Yeah. In any case, they were 10 miles away, and they had this attitude about their neighbor's beer.

Yeah, and I think that attitude starts in feudalistic Europe, where people developed very localized identities in a variety of ways. I mean, and Gary, you would know more about this than any of the, the three of us would, but even in languages, In very short distances around Europe. There's

In England, you go 20 miles down the road, people speak a different accent. Whereas in the United States, our accents have become largely homogenized. Even the Southern accent is kind of dying out in a lot of places, or it's not as strong because we've had so much. Movement of people. We, a lot of the country grow in an era of rapid communications, which didn't exist in medieval Europe. You know, things were very cordoned off from each other. So yeah, so it's not a surprise that you would see different, you know, brewing traditions develop as well as different linguistic traditions. A lot of, I mean, my question back to you guys would be. There's kind of a beer, this, this, we mentioned it before the Reinscheidt Kubot, this is the purity laws. And so there are these things which are kind of considered to be a pure real beer. But as you noted. Traditionally, every place had their own thing that they put in their beer. So like, I know you make some beers that basically are the, you know, malt yeast, hops. It's very straight forward. But then like I was here yesterday, you had a watermelon gosa, which is probably not something that would, would, would, you know, meet the purity laws. You wouldn't find those ingredients in the same place, but yeah. You know, assuming they did grow watermelons, you know, if we go back far enough, it is probably something they might put in, you know, a beer. Do we have any recorded recipes from that period for any of these?

Yeah. The monks were really good at, at record keeping. They are still. And, and, and if you fast forward to Germany and England, In fact, maybe we should give some context. What era are we talking about when we're talking about these monasteries?

These are really starting in about the 7th century.

Okay, so we're looking at pretty much a thousand years of this before we get into this industrial age of brewing. Right. But bookkeeping was still extremely important in those times and Joel says they're not, they're not cross fertilizing, pollinating, and they're not, they're not getting outside of their lane so much for so many hundreds of years. Right. yeah, that, I don't, I haven't laid my, my own eyes on them, but these books exist. The monks keep them for hundreds and hundreds and

One of the reasons they would have to, these, these monasteries are brewing some, you know, significant amounts of beer. And if you are, are, and I don't want to call this industrializing beer, but if you're amping up your production to this level, just for the ease of doing it, you, you have to write things down. And they, and they were making. And you have to be systematic about it.

Yeah, exactly. And they were making beer for the communities, 3 percent beers, two and a half percent beer. They're called table beers. They, they have certain gravity to them and that, and that constituted a pretty good amount of their, of their volume still, still does today, but definitely back then.

And Charlemagne, I mean, Charlemagne made a, there was a law in Germany, Karl Der Charlemagne had a law that every estate had to have a brewery. You know, just to kind of speak to the volume of beer that's, that's being produced and undoubtedly the record keeping and the taxation, that was happening across this, this really unique network of, of beer. It's, it's kind of exciting to, to talk about and think about.

Yeah. And in France, you had Saison, an agrarian culture there, farmhouse ales.

Let's talk about Hildegard of Bingen. You mentioned her. She was the Abbess, she, she did a whole bunch of things beyond just beer. But one of the things she did, it was the first mention, I think recorded mention of the use of hops in beer. How did that revolutionize beer making? I mean, obviously we're still doing it today, so.

I think one of her things, she, she was really big on the medical side of hops. Like, she thought it was an antibacterial. And this is still a point in which Europe is wrestling with outbreaks of disease periodically. This is the pre black death period, but they're still being afflicted by a number of different, you know, disease vectors and, and to, to put this out there as an antibacterial or, you know, a remedy. for things was, was absolutely vital, but then it also has preservative qualities.

Right. All of these, these, we, we brought up boiling, we brought up alcohol, and now we're talking about hops. And really the hops come into play because they keep your beer from going sour. So if it, largely because the bacteria that caused that could not survive that level of bitterness, the, the acids that are associated with that. But yeah, she would have recognized that there's a flavor stability component here. Apart from the, the, the other factors that makes beer so potable.

Hildegard lived in the 12th century. And so you talked about the early monastic orders. There was a period of time for several centuries where women were largely involved in beer production, many places. I don't know if you've heard the story, but they would often like sell their wares at a market. And to get people's attention, they would wear pointed hats. And supposedly, I think there's some been some debate about this. This is where the idea of a witch came from, you know, sitting over a cauldron. That was actually be, you know, a brewing vat. The hats were something they wore basically to kind of like a wacky waveable, you know, thing that you'd see today in front of a car dealership. That's what they were to get people's attention. when did that change take place? I should say, monastic orders always kept brewing beer. I mean, they're still doing it today, but it became women's work in a lot of villages, I think. And then it kind of went away from that. Was there an economic reason for it or was there some sort of change that happened? I think it was around the Renaissance where it kind of stopped doing that.

I think that actually might go back even farther to the Crusades. You know, where you're seeing a lot of men leaving villages going on crusade and a lot of women started to step into, roles that had maybe previously been reserved for men. I, cause I shared with both of you guys a, a strange fact from a book that I had that cited that 5 percent of women in, in one 12th century European, or English village rather died in making a beer. They would fall into the vats and, you know, they'd be affected by the steam or what, I don't know, whatever. Maybe they were sampling.

The insurance companies of those days would have stalled at insuring that.

Yeah. So I, I think it probably has to do with maybe the militarization that European states were going through at that point because that's around the, the time in which you really start to see, you know, in the 1170s is, is when the bio tapestry and all the unique things are going on between England and France and William the Conqueror. So I think men maybe were joining these national forces. Perhaps leaving women behind to occupy that role, to answer your question. That, that to me is maybe where that started

it might've cycled a couple of times in history, which is a long stretch of time. It might've been something that women, it was part of their daily duties. And then it may have gone back to being, I wouldn't say industrial, but more heavy lifting. So it may have oscillated between men's and women's work until we arrive at the industrial era where we're talking about the ability to, to brew really large batches. You know, 300 years ago, 300 batches that were hundreds of homes worth of beer in one spot, the efficiencies and the cost make that more favorable. And so you see less and less of home brewing at the time.

Which is where again, I think we circle back to maybe the second chapter of the story with European monks. They were responsible for the production of beer for their community as part of basically fundraising for their order. They had to do it. And then obviously along the way, these different orders, the Trappists perhaps in modern beer lore foremost amongst them started to, you know, You know, maybe brew the finest beer in the world.

And cheese. We don't, this isn't a cheese podcast, but you have chocolate, cheese, and various breads and so on.

Cheese has, just to go off, you know, track for about a minute, cheese has kind of a similar origin to beer in that it was largely made by accident. Right. It was made by storing milk in the stomach of an animal that had casein and emzyme and they wound up with cheese. And from there it became, you know, its own thing. But very, I mean, obviously it's different, but the origins of it kind of being accidental thing that was stumbled upon and then, improved over time is very similar.

Yeah. And the monks association with it is similar even today.

The other big change that happened in Europe was the Reformation. So we're talking about the religious aspect of beer monasteries. The Reformation takes place and suddenly there are massive You know, religious changes that happen in Europe, there's massive political upheaval that happens. How does that affect beer?

That's a fabulous question and a difficult one to answer, I think, in a short time, but we'll, we'll do our best. Well, one of the, one of the ways that, that I think beer was affected by the Reformation is the Catholic Church began to tax the aromatics, the berries, those, the, the dried gruits that they would use in brewing. So the Protestants then, thanks to Hildy started to use more hops. as a way of, you know, kind of thumbing their nose at the, at the Catholics who are looking to, you know, profiteer on the production of beer, which, frankly, if you look at the geography of Europe, the, the Catholic world at that point is going to be bordering the Mediterranean, so it's going to be more of a wine producing area, whereas Northern Europe is obviously more, you know, generating and producing far more beer. So they viewed this as kind of a personal affront to, you know, their religious way of life, because beer was used ceremoniously in the Protestant world. So this was viewed as kind of an effort to interrupt Protestant faithful practices. So the Protestants said, okay, fine, we're not going to use the things that you're going to tax.

Some of those things were dangerous to their health, right? We're talking about bog myrtle. And, and I can't remember, there are these names that I don't have any association with, but I, but I've heard of, and I think that arsenic was also involved in, if you go further later in history. So they, they were saving lives by switching to hops. Right.

And obviously is me probably being the biggest hop head sitting around this table right now because I love hops and the flavor of them. We're certainly glad that they did, but that that's really when brewing, I think, took a huge step forward as they began to focus on hops as that bittering agent. As that aromatic and as, as Bobby, I'm sure we'll talk about, or maybe has already talked about, you know, you can layer aromas and, and bittering agents within your beer so that they come out at different times as they cross your, your taste buds. And that's where this happens.

And that's the, definitely the modern echelon or the modern era, the most modern era is the, that manipulation of hops for sure.

And we, we wouldn't have that without that, the policy of, of taxation, and again, I think this is where Northern Europe tends to split apart from Southern Europe, and this is clearly accelerated by the Thirty Years War which, unlike almost any of the other numbered years wars, You know, the seven years war actually lasted closer to nine. The a hundred years war was 116, but the 30 years war was actually 30. You know, millions of people died in that war and it was catastrophic, but it also had some really detrimental effects to brewing. So brewing kind of goes into a dark age during that time period. That's probably not fully woken up from until they get to the industrial.

And for people that don't know 30 years war was arguably the worst war in human history up until the first world war, right? Like there were parts of Europe where 50 percent of the population died.

Right.

I mean it was devastating and I think a lot of people, especially a lot of Americans are just not aware of how impactful that was. Yeah.

You said 30 million. The entire population probably wasn't more than a hundred million. I mean, we're talking...

Yeah, it was catastrophic and you know, you also have to layer on top of that. You also have a plague outbreak that that's happening at the same time infrastructure is being destroyed. Monasteries are being destroyed. The mechanisms by which the brewing world had developed is, is largely being compromised. So this, this was like. Cause beer, I mean, beer still flourished during the dark ages. Maybe there wasn't the cross, you know, pollination is to, to borrow a phrase from you, Bobby. But, this was like the, the, this was the dark ages of beer was really that 30 years war period.

We've mentioned it many, many times. So let's explicitly talk about the Reinscheitgebot, the German beer. What was the reason for it? Why was it necessary to pass such a law? Which I think still exists today, doesn't it?

Yeah, 1516. They, they amended it in 18

We tried, I should say, we tried to open in, in, in, 2016. We didn't make it. We wanted to. On the anniversary. Yeah, we wanted to say that we opened 500 years, but And we made it end a year. 501.

They've, they've had to amend it. They amended it in 1857, I think?

When they added yeast. Yeah, they've also sort of put a variation on it where they added wheat. Wheat was allowed for one family that was friends of, of the king and they were But what was, what was the reason for it?

Why was it necessary when beer had been brewed for centuries?

Right. I think part of it is, is standardization. The Germans had developed a much stronger taste for hops. And again, just to put this law into context, this happens three years before the Protestant Reformation. So it's, it's kind of right on the edge of that happening in 15, 16, 17. And when they, the, the original one was three ingredients.

They didn't know what yeast was. Right. So it was water, hops, barley. They understood something about the sludge that remained in the tank, needed to remain in the tank. There was no word except God is good, I think it was, and it translates in German, but, they called that ingredient God is good, and they knew that it was part of it, they just didn't know what it was. But you're right, as written, there were only three.

Because there were, I mean, there were 300, and I, I'm gonna butcher the number, but prior to the Reformation, there were, you know, there was one state in Germany that was part of the Holy Roman Empire. Afterwards, it was 380 some. proto principalities and whatnot. So I, you know, leaders are certainly wanting to put their stamp on things. And I think this law in part was an effort to standardize this production, which was important for You know, community life, ceremonial life,

Well, German brewers are nothing if not high quality brewers. And the definition of quality means repeatability. And in order to do that, you need to establish a national law.

These are at their standards, is really what it amounts to.

Yeah, exactly. You can make anything in Germany that doesn't subscribe to those rules, but you can't call it beer, so you can't market it as such. Now So the thing that the biggest thing that I take home with that from the Reinheitzke boat is that there was an identification that if beer were made in the summer months, it would tend to sour. And so they, another piece of this was they were only allowed to make beer in the colder months and store it for consumption in the summer. And in doing so, and I mentioned this previously, they, they started to select out lager yeast. Lager yeast does well in the cold, ale yeast does not. And then we bring about the, the, the most modern, revolution in beer, which is lagers.

Which again, can't happen without refrigeration south of this climate.

Right. If for 12 months out of the year. Right. Yeah.

Which is one of the other reasons jumping to U. S. history, why Milwaukee became such a prolific lagerring area in the early, in the early 1800s, because we have the geography to, to lager.

Before we get to that, let's, let's talk about a transition. As you get into the 16th century, the 17th century, you see European expansion into the Americas, different parts of the world, and they bring with them beer and brewing obviously probably too bulky and difficult to. You know, transport beer across the sea, although sailors did drink. I think they had ale was one of the things that they were often given as part of their daily allotment. It's quite a bit, actually. I think it's like a gallon a day.

And ales probably wasn't hopped. The definition is probably more like a gruit. Something else was using the spice. Yeah.

So were there any changes that happened to beer as they spread?

I think the bigger changes after that Colombian exchange in beer happened on the western side of the Atlantic. I think when you, when you look at the, at the things that migrated, because the Columbian Exchange is the biological migration of plants, animals, and disease across the Atlantic. The migration of barley went from Europe to the Americas. There were wildly grown hops here in the Americas. I think that's probably where, We're going to see the biggest change because European hops, you know, are different from American hops just because hops are so dependent upon the soil in which they're grown and the alpha acids from the, from the area that they're produced. what that, that change is probably a long time, you know, in the making. In fact, I, I don't think Europeans, cause they don't, Europeans are not IPA people. They're not, You know, brewing with a lot of Cascades and Centennials and Simcoes and

Right, right, yeah. Generally, they're sticking with their practices.

But even if you look at early, you know, Mexican beers, everybody talks about like, you know, Corona and Modelo, etc. the Modelo Negro is a Vienna lager. Right. For the most part, it's just using a different grain base. In this case, it's using corn. so I, I think the Atlantic world on the Western side, so the Americas, they're the ones that are being more affected by it. They're being introduced to beer and, you know, this is going to transition us into if we can do another show, we could definitely do one on the American side of things. I'd love to come back and talk with you about that.

All right. I think that's good for now until next time, make sure to join our brand new Facebook group, where you can talk to other beer aficionados, as well as the other guests and hosts of the podcast, and until next time, join us for another episode of Respecting the Beer.