[00:00:00] Hannah: Okay, so you're in for a real treat today. Today's conversation is with someone I admire for so many reasons. The brand marketer in me is in awe of her 20 plus years of experience in the world of brand strategy and branding. Introvert me is so, so impressed with her ease of connecting with her audience, drawing people in, building meaningful connections.

[00:00:27] In this episode, I get to sit down with Anneli Hansson, Swedish award winning brand strategist and online educator. She helps creatives get paid for their thinking. Now, if that's not the most introvert friendly approach ever, I don't know what is. You'll find so many gold nuggets in what Anneli has to share about her personality.

[00:00:51] The way she works a room and makes random strangers, genuine friends and business partners. We talk about how introverts are excellent meeting and workshop facilitators and how we can proactively avoid being misconstrued as awfully quiet and instead double down on our strength of listening, observing, reflecting, and then asking really good questions.

[00:01:19] If you ever listened to an episode twice. Make it this one. There is so much wisdom in how Annalie thinks, connects, and is curious about the world around her. So without further ado, let's jump into the interview. All right. Well, Annalie, welcome to the awfully quiet podcast. It's exciting to have you.

[00:01:42] Anneli: Thank you so much. I'm excited to be here.

[00:01:45] Hannah: Well, I, like I just said, it's so nice to see someone in person or in a virtual setting after, consuming so much of their content, which I certainly have a few, there's so many different, ways or perspective I want to, I want to tackle today and where I could take the interview, you're a brand strategist, you work with creatives, I consider myself a creative, you have some exciting things going on that I really resonate with, but where I want to start.

[00:02:12] Because we're on the awfully quiet podcast is do you consider yourself introverted or extroverted?

[00:02:19] Anneli: What would be your guess?

[00:02:22] Hannah: I would have said extroverted just because I see you so often. I know that that doesn't necessarily mean, you're an extrovert. You may as well take your energy from, you know, spending time by yourself. But just from my perception online, I would have thought extroverted.

[00:02:39] Anneli: Yeah, I think I actually scored 95 percent extrovert. I'm extremely extrovert,

[00:02:46] Hannah: I love that.

[00:02:48] Anneli: I will say that maybe it changed, I don't know, with the years. I don't, but actually, okay, so this is my take on it. I don't know if I'm right or not, but I don't think we change. I just think we change our behavior and how we show up.

[00:03:04] But I think we are who we are. And I think I'm born as an extrovert. Meaning if I have a five hour workshop, I'm totally animated and so excited. And I just want to do another one. That's being an extrovert. While my friends who are introverts, like, just let me sleep for a day or at least like three hours.

[00:03:27] So. I consider that's like the difference where I get my energy from, but with that said, I mean, the older also I get. The more important for me, it is to recharge and to be with myself. Like I really like being when it's quiet. I like being out in nature. I need to ground myself, like preferably like barefoot out in the grass.

[00:03:52] I need to walk in the forest. I need to see the ocean. All these things recharge me. So I can't be around people all the time. I don't think that's being extroverted. You see some, I feel like I'm. a very extroverted person, but I also need that time for, for myself and quiet time.

[00:04:14] Hannah: I love that. And I think, introversion and extroversion always exist on the spectrum. Nobody is a hundred percent of anything. Although you score, very high on the extroverted scale. And, you mentioned very important point there in terms of like you take energy out of. Being around people and being surrounded by people, whereas some of the introverts may, may take as much energy out of that interaction out of a really good workshop.

[00:04:39] But indeed, they refuel differently. They wouldn't want to go into the next one. they would want to spend some time by themselves.

[00:04:45] Anneli: Yeah, and I do think when you do those tests, I'm not so sure that it's just about energy because I actually think they ask a little bit sneaky questions around other things that might do that my score is higher because I also love being around people I never met. So like one of my favorite things are just throw me into a room with people I never met and I will become friends with them in like five minutes.

[00:05:10] I love networking. I love meeting people. I love talking in front of people. So all these things, you know, they probably score me even higher as an extrovert. Yeah.

[00:05:22] Hannah: I would be terrified of that. throw me in a room full of strangers and it'd be like, you say, I'll make friends within the first 5 minutes. It takes me a lot longer to, like, get, get to that space. Talk to me about that because I'm interested to understand, you know, what's going on inside of you when you enter a room like that.

[00:05:41] Is it like, you know, a room full of strangers? opportunities and you kind of like talk your way through or do you find the people that you want to act with right away? How do you do that,

[00:05:52] Anneli: Okay. I want, I want to answer as honest as possible and I don't want to sound like I try to be like the good girl because that's not my intention, but I'm being super honest. I don't ever have any agenda. Like, I know that people go in and like, Oh, so who can I network with to win a deal? Or, you know, like they just want things.

[00:06:16] And for me, I don't know. I'm just like a little bit like a curious kid. You know, sometimes I actually feel a little bit like a kid, but I'm turning 50 this year, but I feel like a kid because I'm extremely curious. I just want to get to know people. I want to know what they do, what they do. I want to hear more about it.

[00:06:35] I'm, I'm interested in people, not so much exactly just what they do. And I don't judge people from a title. I'm more interested in who they are, you know? So, and that's the, that's the truth. I think that's why I love meeting people.

[00:06:55] Hannah: yeah. This, I think the magic is in the genuine interest. And that's actually something that, us introverts, we get taught because it doesn't come as natural to somebody like me, in terms of like, okay, what can I ask them? do you have a go to questions that you like ask people outside of. You know, because you say you're not so interested in titles.

[00:07:18] Is there anything that you would ask somebody just naturally?

[00:07:21] Anneli: I would never like, ask do

[00:07:24] Hannah: do you do?

[00:07:24] Anneli: or things like that. I'm more interested like, oh, but you know, have you been here the entire day? If we're going to something, for example, like, what was your favorite thing today? Or. I like asking more about those things. Not like, who are you and what do you work with?

[00:07:41] It feels so, that feels a little bit like you have an agenda and you just want to see, are you interested or not? If not, I just go talk to someone else. I don't like that approach. You know, I'm more interested in like, what was the best thing for you? And I feel like in three seconds, if you are shy, Or like outgoing or then I can adjust who I talk to.

[00:08:06] So if I feel like, oh, here we have a really introverted person, then I will be a little bit different. Like, I'll try to like, take a deep breath, be a little bit more present. I talk fast, I'm fast in my head. You know, I, I, I'm really good at taking up space and that's my biggest challenge. So I need to think about that, like shut the F up, give people space.

[00:08:32] You know, breathe, so they feel comfortable, and try to find something that you can feel that they're probably interested in, and ask them a couple of questions so they can relax. That's how I do it.

[00:08:45] Hannah: And that's what works so well for me is being around somebody like you, because I don't feel like I have to, take up more room. I can almost go with the flow. The other person asked the questions and I always think to myself, oh, that's a really good question because it, it does feel like somebody is genuinely interested.

[00:09:04] In who you are. and then it feels like there's less pressure on myself. So I would always really enjoy going out with my extroverted friends because they would do some of that job for me. So, when you go to events like that. And you are in a networking situation, would you say that you, do you feel ease around speaking to many different kinds of people?

[00:09:31] Do you, does it all just come natural to you? It just come from one person to the other.

[00:09:37] Anneli: Yeah. I mean, I just like, like meeting as many people as possible. I mean, I do like really deep conversations. So maybe that's why I have a lot of introverted friends.

[00:09:50] Hannah: Yeah.

[00:09:51] Anneli: Cause I like one on one conversation and go really deep into conversation. So it's like, it's kind of ironic that I'm an extrovert that way, because I'm self aware.

[00:10:04] In a way that I know that I have to stop myself all the time. It's not that I want to interrupt someone. That's the worst thing I know. Sometimes I just can't help myself. I'm like, I'm so animated and interested sometimes of someone and curious. So I can't like stop myself from like asking a lot of questions and going in with a lot of energy.

[00:10:28] And I'm like, hold your, you know. be quiet, like take it easy. You will scare that person, give them space. So I really need to think about that because I want people to feel relaxed around me, but I'm good at going into a conversation, leaving the conversation very

[00:10:47] Hannah: what I was gonna ask. So how do you do that? Because that's one of my biggest fears, starting a conversation with somebody that I don't know is what am I, what if happens if I'm going to be stuck in that situation? Like,

[00:10:59] Anneli: and you know, the thing, this is so funny because I have a few friends who don't love networking, so I didn't realize this. And so I, I was like, I'm really good also at like introducing people. So I'm talking to someone, I know someone wants to talk to someone else that I know. So I'm like, Oh, here's this person.

[00:11:18] And then I introduce, and then I leave them there. Then I would continue to do my thing. And then after like 30 minutes, I'm like, Oh my God, that person is still talking to that

[00:11:28] Hannah: that's what I'm saying.

[00:11:29] Anneli: maybe they're stuck. And I didn't think about it. So that's something that I need to learn to that.

[00:11:35] Oh, okay. So this is like the interesting part when you're, when you're doing something that comes really natural for you, you don't analyze it. Like you don't think about it. So I don't know when you're like, Oh, what is a good question? I'm like, I don't know. I never thought about it. I just feel what feels right in that moment, you know, but if I start thinking about it, it's the same.

[00:11:59] If we do a podcast or being on stage in general, I was nervous, you know, and then I started to think about it and then it ended up so weird every time I'm on stage because I've tried to be a person that I'm not even not totally subconscious. But I want to be really good at asking questions and give space and be a smart person, have all the answers and just end up super weird.

[00:12:29] I just tried to stop that and just be,

[00:12:34] Hannah: it.

[00:12:34] Anneli: yeah.

[00:12:35] Hannah: Yeah, yeah.

[00:12:37] Anneli: So, so, okay. Sorry to, sorry. I didn't even ask you to answer a question. To leave. I think it's just, you can just say like, Oh, I see a person. I see a person over there that I, that I really wanted to talk to, or that I promised to talk to. It was so nice meeting you.

[00:12:55] See you later. And then I go, it doesn't have to be more complicated.

[00:13:02] Hannah: I feel like it's a lot about the mindset of, you know, if you go enter into a conversation, it doesn't have to become as deep. I think that's what, we, we tend to strive for. It's like, oh, I want to have a really good conversation, but it can all just also stay on the surface. If you feel like. Okay, let's move on.

[00:13:19] Everything has its place. That's how I think about it. A networking event or meeting at a conference or at a party is not a place to have a deep conversation. So a lot of people will be like, Oh, but let's, you know, move over there and talk a little bit. That's probably more comfortable for some people, but I'm like, but I'm here to meet people.

[00:13:42] Anneli: I would love to talk to you for five minutes, 10 minutes, and then I'm off to another person. And if you know, if we want to meet, then we can just schedule a call you and I and have a coffee over Zoom or meet in person. Then we can have a deeper conversation, but I don't want to be stuck with one person for 45 minutes when I'm, when I want to meet a lot of people.

[00:14:02] Yeah.

[00:14:04] Hannah: yeah, it's a, it's a lot about intention. What's the expectation of what's going to happen? I feel like. I feel like we can learn so much from, from other personalities and that in terms of like, oh, how can I, how can I create more ease around interacting with others? What can I take away from some of the extrovert personalities?

[00:14:25] And likewise, the extrovert personalities, how can I leave more space? How can I make sure that people don't feel offended, et cetera? So I love that.

[00:14:35] Anneli: I think to be, to reflect on things like that have been really important for my growth. And I really don't say, if you would ask a few of my very introverted friends, you would say that I'm way too. I talk so much and I'm interrupting sometimes and I'm a verbal processor, but that's just me. I'm doing my best, you know, so I think what your introverts are really good at that.

[00:15:01] I really admire why we want to talk to you is because you're often really interesting people like. You're really good at listening. You're really good at being present. You ask really good questions. And if we can just be quiet for a while, even when you, when you answer a question, this is what I learned.

[00:15:24] If I interview someone, for example, I need to be quiet when you stop talking, and then you will start talking again, and that will be even more interesting. But if I ask another question or go deeper, I might go in the wrong direction. So giving that space is like the most, it's like in sales. You need to be quiet after you say the price.

[00:15:47] It's the same thing. You need to be quiet after you ask an introverted question.

[00:15:53] Hannah: I love that. and it touches on something that I reflected prior to going into this interview because, I often hear you reference that you, work with creatives, and you help them get paid for their thinking. And I get chills just saying that because that just sounds to me like the most amazing thing in the world, you know, because often it feels like.

[00:16:16] We get paid for speaking, for being somebody who, you know, expresses themselves well, articulates themselves well, sells themselves well. Now, getting paid for your thinking sounds to me like such an, such an introvert dream. what I want to talk to you about this because you work a lot with creatives.

[00:16:35] Anneli: Why do you like to work with creatives? like putting myself or people in boxes. I am a designer. I'm a creative soul. I'm not a graphic designer, but I have an education in design strategy and design thinking. I'm also a marketing strategist. That's the extroverted part of me. So I know branding and I know marketing.

[00:17:01] So I have one, like one foot in each. So for me, it's always been about solving creative problems. So, when all my extroverted marketing people, they, we studied in school together and then they started to work just with marketing. And I started, I started to talk with industrial designers and UX designers.

[00:17:27] I went back to school after a couple of years to study, design strategy, innovation, design thinking, and it was me and 29 designers in the class. And they were like, what are you doing here? I'm like, Why not? Like you're not a designer because, you know, in design or illustrator, I'm a designer because I think like a designer.

[00:17:48] I solve problems. So for me, it's always been that. I'm one of you. It's just that I'm not the maker. I'm the thinker. And all of you are also the thinker, but you're put in a box for a lot of clients. So they call you and ask you to do something instead of thinking and solving a problem. So sometimes you do that.

[00:18:11] Yeah. But not getting paid. And that just frustrated me. Like that made me kind of mad. So when I, even when I was on the client side, why don't I see any designers on this C suite level? Like were, you know, just strategists and marketing strategy people. And then when it comes to execution, then the designer came in.

[00:18:34] I'm like, something is wrong. We're not using the entire brain here. No, it's just a lot of left brainers. So we need right brain thinkers. So that's why I feel so passionate about it. I'm like, if we work together, we can solve much bigger problems. And then we can solve things in a world that needs to be solved too.

[00:18:56] And you can't solve problems the way you created the problem. And I'm pretty sure it wasn't designer who created all the problems out there. It's mostly white men with power. So, and they like Excel often and business. So I think we need more creative souls to actually solve the big problems in the world.

[00:19:17] Hannah: Oh, I love that. I consider myself a creative soul as well. what do you think holds them back from getting paid for their thinking? What are some of the blockers? Why are they not, why are they not where they need to be?

[00:19:32] Anneli: most, and it's difficult to just, I need to, you know, it's difficult when you talk to a big group of people because people can come from so different places. But if I talk about designers, it's easiest, because designers often have a design background and a design education. So when you study design, you're not often studying marketing strategy. And you're not studying business. So what happens is that you don't have that language. You don't know how to talk to people who actually have the big budgets and take the big decisions. So you end up a little bit lower. If you work with a corporate, for example, you end up a little bit lower than I would do if I go in.

[00:20:20] So I think that's one of the challenges, like if you can't talk about it from a. Business perspective, then it ends up in something that looks nice, or it's a very fluffy the hand, you know, you need to talk about it. How is this going to move the business forward? So that's one thing to have the language.

[00:20:41] I think the other thing is also that. When you don't, when you don't study like positioning, for example, in school, or you're not studying any marketing strategy and marketing is not advertising. A lot of people confuse those things. Advertising is one part of marketing and marketing and basically like understanding the market, who you talk to and how you want to position yourself towards the competitors.

[00:21:07] and have a plan for that. But if you don't know the skills, how to do it, then it's actually really difficult to be included in the discussions and strategies around how to develop a brand. So if you, if you really are a brand identity designer, it's really important for me. I mean, I think it's really important to actually know how to develop a brand. Because the visual part is one part, but you have so much more that you need to do before you even get started. So that's why I feel so passionate about it. I know if you have the skills, if you have the language, if you have the processes, how to do it. If you know how to facilitate and to guide a client and lead a meeting, then you will never, ever be an order taker and you will be that person who guides and that person gets a lot more paid and can also make a really positive impact in the world.

[00:22:05] So that's why I feel so passionate about it. Yeah.

[00:22:09] Hannah: resonate with that because in my corporate job, I'm the other side. I'm often the client. I'm the, the brand strategist and the person who, who would work with creatives and, I always felt that. The clearer you are on the context of your brand, on the identity, the more you take people on a journey of like, here's where we come from, here is the problem that we have, and here's our initial thinking of how to solve it, but then leave enough creative space for the other person to come in and, contribute not only with the skills that they have, but also with the thinking.

[00:22:45] I'm always like, Well, there is a, there is a ceiling to what I know and understand about, specific skills. So I want to leave that room and I want to ask for, you know, what, what would you recommend I do? Because I literally don't know. I'm thinking it can become a beautiful collaboration, but it has to almost come from both from both sides.

[00:23:06] Yeah.

[00:23:08] Anneli: my first branding studio 2005 with a graphic designer. She's specialized in brand identity design. So she'd here in Sweden, at least, I don't know how it is in other countries, but for the most like prestigious schools. So we have. You either study, you know, graphic design or you study advert advertising.

[00:23:29] It's two different things. So either you become an art director or a copywriter or you become a graphic designer. Graphic designer is a little bit more like the skills of the making and the design skills, while the art director is more concept development and advertising kind of. So Linda, who I had the agency with, she was a graphic designer.

[00:23:50] And we, I think we worked in a way that Most people want to work when you work with a strategist and a designer. She was with, for the, from the first meeting, she was always there. But what happens if you work with someone, especially if you, I don't want to say that most designers are shy introverts, but I know from having so many people in my classes and my community, and it's not so many people like me, most people are kind of scared of facilitation.

[00:24:22] So what I do when I bring in someone. I tell the client up front why we're two. It's important to have a designer from the first meeting. My role as a strategist is to facilitate the conversations with you. This person is going to be a little bit more quiet, so you don't have to think that it's weird or strange.

[00:24:45] I will tell you why, because she's a really good observer and she needs to be in the meetings from start to really like pick up on all those small details and things that you will say and do. Thank you. While I'm facilitating, I might miss something out of that. So she takes notes and kind of supports me in the exercises.

[00:25:08] And then when we come to a certain point, after the strategy is done, then we shift. So then she takes over and start the creative work and take lead on that because that also makes people, and if you're very quiet as a person, and you think it's scary to facilitate, it's important that this person like us makes really clear for the client who's who and what we're doing there, because otherwise it can become like, Oh, you're so quiet.

[00:25:39] And that's like the worst thing to say to someone who's quiet. So like, why are you

[00:25:43] Hannah: awfully quiet.

[00:25:46] Anneli: talking about that. So, you know, we don't want to even have that situation. So that person can really relax and like, I know why I'm here because I'm going to get so good clues. So you already start thinking about how this will look like in the next step.

[00:26:01] Yes.

[00:26:04] Hannah: is leadership at its best, just because you're setting the other person up for success. You're managing expectations with the client in terms of like saying. This person is going to observe and, and therefore what you, what you do is you make the quiet something that's, that becomes active.

[00:26:22] It always looks really passive. And in observing, what tends to happen to me is I look really reserved when I just kind of take things in. I, I focus less on my facial expressions, I focus less on my body language and that often it tends to look like reserved, not interested. So, in the way you're setting it up it's almost like so this person is really good at observing at this stage of the project and then she's going to take over.

[00:26:49] And then. You almost set her up to lead naturally. And it's not something where she feels like, Oh, I really got to say something in order to show presence, or I really got to, you know, speak up in a way so that I'm going to be seen. No, she doesn't need to do it because you managed those expectations. So that is beautiful.

[00:27:09] Anneli: Oh, I think it's just important because I think sometimes that we forget about that thing. And I do that in teaching too. I always give people two different roles like just because you're not talking now and you're not the one facilitating. So if I have four people doing a real client thing, for example, then two people help each other, facilitate, and the other two are observers. It's their role. They're going to observe everything because I want people to learn how to do that. Listen to every cue. Take notes. What's happening. Look at the client and see the energy shift. Like what's going on there. But why did that person react on that word or. You know, take notes about that. So, so you can give feedback to the, your other two friends after the session.

[00:28:01] So you're as important as the people actually leading the conversation. I think that's so important. So I tell people when I have a big glass, like a workshop, I'm like, you better not sleep now because I will call on you. And like, I don't, I just call your name. And if you don't want to speak, because I do respect people who get too shy.

[00:28:22] So, I'd have this rules. I'm just to show your hand. This means no. So if you do this, that means that I will just leave and go to another person. No questions asked nothing because it could be that you don't feel good today. It could be like you have a barking dog, a screaming kid. I don't really care what it is.

[00:28:41] Just maybe you don't want to talk. It's totally fine, but I will not let people raise their hand because the most extroverted people will take over the class. So all of you are in here. All of you are important. And I call on you instead of you raising your hand. So stay awake, you know, and observe. Yeah.

[00:29:02] Hannah: is another great tool to facilitate and to make sure that everyone's voice is heard. it also helps them so that they don't have to speak up by themselves. You know, especially when it comes to big workshop settings, sometimes it's hard to get a word in and you really want to say something, but you don't want to, you don't want to push into somebody else speaking.

[00:29:21] You don't want to you know, grab too much, you know, that can feel really unnatural for somebody who's introverted. So, I'm almost thinking for introverts in the workplace or for introverts who find themselves in situations like that, it's always good to communicate. You know what? This is how I, you set me up for success.

[00:29:44] If we're about to, you know, do a meeting together, if you're in a workshop together, I am somebody who's naturally more quiet, who takes things in. I'd love to say something about X, Y, or Z. if you, you know, Invite me in it. I think it's absolutely fair to say those things and to manage expectations and say, look, this is how I am in a meeting in a workshop.

[00:30:06] I'm there. I'm listening. I'm observing, ask me for my opinion and I'll give it. but I'm not going to be the 1 who speaks all the time, or who's the most vocal.

[00:30:17] Anneli: I mean, how beautiful is that? If you can come to a place where you feel that that is okay to express something like that, that's self leadership. It's really. You need to be self aware, lead yourself. I promise you, no person will think that is a strange thing to say or judge that. The opposite people be like, Oh my God, this person really want to contribute, but also tell people, this is how I operate.

[00:30:46] I know. And you can say that, like you said, this kind of meetings, like a brainstorming session, I just want to let you know that for me and my personality. Okay. This is not where I'm my best. Because this is made kind of for people who just jump in and talk before they think, and I like to think before I talk.

[00:31:10] So I would like to ask you to give me a little space when I feel like I have something to say. And if I don't have anything to say right now, don't think that I'm not. Interested? I reflect all the time. I will take notes and maybe I will come back a little bit later. So I want to inform you about this is how I work.

[00:31:30] And if you feel like I'm a little bit quiet for a while, ask if I want that space, if, if you want that. So, because informing people like that, and if that feels difficult to do, try to identify who's like me in the group. Like a friendly

[00:31:48] Hannah: find that extroverted person on the call.

[00:31:51] Anneli: and grab that person before meetings or when you work together and say, I noticed that you talk more than me and you don't have a problem taking up space. Would you mind like be my champion me a little bit and be my friend and help me and I love doing that. People don't even have to ask me. I do it naturally anyway in meeting. I'm like, I think we heard you enough right now. Can you, you know, I'm like, I'm just facilitating so everyone gets. Time and sometimes people raise their hand again, again, I'm like, yeah, but you had your question now.

[00:32:30] So let's leave space for them for other people now. And then I call on some people. What do you, is you, do you have anything that you want to bring up? You know, I really like invite people, but not in a way like, oh, you're so quiet because I know that hurts.

[00:32:46] yeah, yeah, it's never a good thing to say. I, you know, let's just stop calling people awfully quiet or make it something that is positive. So, so yeah, so, so try, try to find your friend or just tell people, like you said, how it is. It's totally fine. That's why brainstorming really sucks. Like that's not a good way of working together because it benefits extroverted people who talk before they think.

[00:33:16] Hannah: Yeah, yeah, I feel like leaning into others. Is an overlooked tool because we tend to feel like, you know, we've got to be able to do that ourselves. We've got to be able to contribute naturally. But to some of us, it's, it's just isn't natural. So honoring the different personalities on a call and also embracing that everybody has a role to play and we don't only need a room full of extroverts to be talking to each other.

[00:33:46] We need that diversity and personality. And we need to find ways to do that. And it's absolutely okay to lean on some of our extroverted colleagues, some of our extroverted partners, and to have those conversations beforehand. I feel like managing those expectations is a, is something that, a lot of people don't do. And so like, kind of like having the conversation beforehand and saying, look. Here is who I am. This is my natural state. please help me a little bit. Please, ensure that, you know,

[00:34:17] Anneli: Hmm.

[00:34:18] Hannah: I get the time to think, but I also get some space to say something.

[00:34:22] Anneli: And that's why I love, working a lot when I work with groups, I like the kind of sprint, like more design thinking methods, because I work a lot with you work on your own first, and then we share and reflect together. Then we had discussion because that helps people need a little bit more time to process, like.

[00:34:43] Do the work first and think and write something down, then everyone have a little bit more fair chance to actually get their voice heard. Sometimes even write down something on a post it note and then you go up to the whiteboard. I mean, if we're in person, put it there, tell people what you write, because then everyone get to participate without having to take up space.

[00:35:06] It's like, it's just natural. Everyone is invited.

[00:35:12] Hannah: Everyone's invited. That feels very introvert friendly.

[00:35:18] Anneli: But you know, introvert some days, most days, I wish I was like you, because I need to talk to formulate my thinking. And it's really difficult sometimes because I wish I could spend time with myself and think and analyze and have this great things to say. And often I don't. I just have to ramble on until I get to something, which is really annoying, especially for some introvert, more logical people.

[00:35:52] They're like, Oh my God, I don't know what you're doing. I'm like, that's just who I am. So I also need help with that. So sometimes I help. I ask for help. The other way around. I'm like, I just need to ramble a little bit right now. Can you help me structure my thinking?

[00:36:10] Hannah: Yeah. This concept of thinking out loud. And, yeah. And you can do that very easily with an introvert. In terms of, can you help me structure my thinking? I'm sure. Yeah.

[00:36:22] Anneli: Yeah. So we all need help with different things.

[00:36:25] Hannah: Yeah. And I love the sentiment of an extrovert wishing to have some introspective, approaches and capabilities because it's usually is the other way around. So I love that you

[00:36:37] Anneli: it is. But are you sure? Because I'm thinking sometimes that we always want what we don't have. You know, if you have, if you have straight hair, you want curly hair. If you have blonde hair, you want dark hair. Like it's, we always want what we have. So I think a lot of extroverts are really tired of themselves and also kind of judging themselves really hard.

[00:36:56] Like, Oh my God, I was talking too much. While maybe someone else is like, Oh, my God, I was so quiet is basically the same thing. It's just the opposites.

[00:37:06] Hannah: Yeah. I feel like there is a job to be done in terms of embracing who you are and what you were naturally gifted with. and to a certain extent. Be able to stretch out of your comfort zone here and there and, like, improve where it makes sense and be, self aware of what you're saying that that aspect of self leadership in terms of like, yeah, I, you know, I lean into what I'm naturally good at, but I can also improve here and there in order to enhance the experience.

[00:37:36] Anneli: I mean, I can, I can share with you. I, all these things that we talk about now comes very natural for me because that's just the way I'm I was born.

[00:37:45] Hannah: Yeah.

[00:37:47] Anneli: But there are a lot of other things that I really, when I need to improve, I need that more. Help of deconstruct something, analyze something and having, having being mentored or whatever you call, like having a lot of help from Chris though, during these three, four years have really changed my life.

[00:38:11] He and I are very similar in a lot of ways, but extremely different in a lot of ways too. And, but he helped me around things that are really difficult for me, like observing Without too much emotions, this emotional rollercoaster, I react like a kid without thinking first, that could hurt people, I could say stupid things, you know, I really have a difficulty time to, to detach from things.

[00:38:47] I'm very attached. To most things. So he taught me so many things. So now I can actually, and I'm so proud of that. I can go back. I can watch a recording. I can take notes. I can like observe. I can separate different things. I'm like, I'm not observing my body language now and I'm detaching myself from it's even me.

[00:39:08] It's like an experiment. And I take notes and then I can improve. And then do the same with how I talk or how I show up. So his super logical brain and way of thinking have helped me so much because it's my opposite,

[00:39:27] Hannah: Mm hmm.

[00:39:28] Anneli: you know, so it's still work to be done. I will probably have to work on it the rest of my life.

[00:39:33] It doesn't come natural. I'm just going to tell you that is I am, I can just see how annoying I must be to be around. If you're like him, but I do my best, but I'm improving so much. So, and Chris is very introverted to have an introverted friend who's very rational and logical way he is and process and think the way he's thinking has so much improved my life, helped me in my relationships, even private relationships, and just made me a better.

[00:40:06] Person actually, extremely grateful for knowing him. So that's the friendship, an introvert and an extrovert.

[00:40:16] Hannah: I really resonate with that. And I feel like it's something that we tend to overlook this because, you know, that the best partnerships, the best teams will always have. One of both, right? We'll always have introverts, extroverts, ambiverts, the whole spectrum. And, it's because you can, you can learn from each other.

[00:40:39] You also see, you just get different perspectives from somebody who, who is different, who thinks a little different and who is just a different personality. So, I feel like that amplifies your experience and also the ability to look. To look on yourself from the outside, it's not easy because if I were to look at a recording like this, there's so much going on, like, just from a, on a personal level, it's like, Oh, what do I look like?

[00:41:07] Why did I say that? You know, the first couple of podcast episodes I recorded, I was like, why do I keep saying the same thing? Why, you know, but it's so important to do it. Regardless of what it feels like it's so important to look at yourself from the outside, and that's the only way you can improve and to get that reflection back of like, here's how this comes across.

[00:41:31] Anneli: Yeah, it's, it's not about that. We need to change who we are. It, this is more about how we, to be aware of things we do. So for example, I do something, you probably hear it in this podcast because you are recording on zoom. So you can't separate the audio probably. So you will hear it in this podcast, what I'm doing and I'm aware, but I keep doing it and I, I know it.

[00:41:59] Okay. So, when you talk, my natural way of showing that I'm interested in what you're saying is like nodding and smiling. But I'm also making sounds like sound effects. So this is really annoying. So when people talk, I'm like, Oh, yeah, I have this sounds. And in a podcast, that could be kind of difficult. So I started to record everything on Riverside because then you can remove my audio. So if I

[00:42:32] Hannah: can do that on zoom too. You can separate the audio, but I don't mind. Yeah, I don't. Yeah.

[00:42:38] Anneli: so what happens when you, so it's just good to think about things like this, because it could be that it works really well in one setting. But for example, if you and I are on LinkedIn or Twitter and we will record it, like on my road coaster, I don't know if you have something like that, but if we record it and it's just one audio channel in, so what happens is if you talk and I do my sound effects.

[00:43:04] I don't want to interrupt you, but it interrupts in the audio recording, which is really annoying for, could be annoying for the other person, but especially for the audience. So things like that is things that I need to go back and look at like filler words, sound effects. So it's not that I'm wanting to change personality.

[00:43:26] It's more being very aware of and not like, Oh, people hate me more like, Oh, that was interesting. Why do I do that? I need to stop doing that. I want to stop doing that. So I think that's what I mean. And it takes a lot to not be like super self critic because we hate our voice. We hate how we look like we're like so judgmental to everything about us.

[00:43:52] But I just realized no one judged me as hard as I judge myself. And the more I judge myself, the more I judge other people, even though I hate admitting it, but I do. So the more I work on myself and my self development, my self awareness, and the more I love myself, I could like accept myself. I'm like, you're not that bad.

[00:44:15] You know, you're doing your best. Then I start to feel the same way about other people. I'm like, they're pretty weird sometimes, but they're actually doing their best.

[00:44:24] And we love the weird ones, don't we? weird ones. Because we are so weird. Like I speak for myself, but I identify as a weirdo. Yeah,

[00:44:35] Hannah: I mean, we, I always think of myself as, as awkward and social settings. I had a conversation with Chris about that. It feels like it's good to have a little bit of an edge. but what you said, what I wanted to build with is. It also, it also honors the fact that some of this is a skill, right?

[00:44:54] It's a skill to speak. Into a microphone with video going on at the same time, it's a skill to be in a live setting on Instagram and then to figure out, you know, how to best interact with each other because there's so many different things that you've got to think about. you say, but the other person says how to keep up the conversation, how the tech works.

[00:45:17] I feel like very similarly when it. It comes to meetings and, and workshops. It's all skills that we learn it's, you know, facilitation is a skill observing and listening as a skill. And it's honoring that none of that is something that we're given at birth. And we are naturally good at, we improve over time and we, we look at ourselves from the outside and then we leave what we like and we improve what we, what we can improve on.

[00:45:45] So I think that's important to take away.

[00:45:48] Anneli: yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. And I think that we come in with, if we say that, say we, we just say for example, that 50% would be our natural way of being, and then 50% is a skill. For example, we just going in with different. the natural thing we're going in with, it's just different, so it's not better to be an extroverted outgoing person as a facilitator, for example, as it's not better to be that than a more shy, quiet, introverted person, because we're just going in with different things and the rest is things that we need to learn.

[00:46:29] So if you're. I'm very extroverted person, like super, like outgoing entertainer kind of person. You can use that part, but then you need to be very aware of you're probably not that good at listening. When I see people facilitate who are very extroverted, I'm like, Oh my God, you're not listening. Like. You're just like talking and have your own ideas. You don't even see what's going on around this table. That's their challenges or me included, our challenges. But then the more quiet maybe person doesn't have to be so animated and running around like a crazy person in front of the whiteboard. You can facilitate in different ways.

[00:47:15] But that person will pick up on all the small details and listen much better. Ask better questions. So, and feel probably more like people feel seen and heard because they make it more about the other people in the room, which is really important. If you're a facilitator, then about yourself, you're not there to entertain people.

[00:47:38] You're not a performer. So I think we're just going in with different things. So when we learn how to facilitate the skills. Then we just add to the natural things we already have, and we don't have to show up the same way all of us. We can still be really good. So for me, it's like, it's just about finding a way that works for you and a way to facilitate a way to sell.

[00:48:07] Everything can be done in a way that you feel comfortable. That is your way of doing it. And I just happen to see that most people I teach who are the best facilitators are actually introverts. Yeah. I

[00:48:25] Hannah: you're inspiring a lot of introverts in my audience to facilitate now. I certainly feel like, Ooh, when's the next workshop coming up? it's such a fresh perspective though. because if, if we were to go out and poll people on, you know, who's the better facilitator for our work for a big workshop, is it an introvert Introverted or an extrovert personality.

[00:48:44] I think naturally a lot of people would tend to go with the extroverts just because they feel like they're, they, they feel easier to, to speak up and to, you know, be the center of attention. But you're not supposed to be the center of attention as a facilitator. You're supposed to facilitate other people speaking.

[00:49:01] So I love that perspective and I'm sure everybody's like. Very keen to facilitate now and, take some of those, some of those, pieces of wisdom away.

[00:49:12] Anneli: mean, if you want proof, I mean, I've been in this industry for like almost 30 years. And I started in 98 and 93, I started with sales and media. So it's been a couple of years and I'm not saying this to be nice or that I know him, but I have never met anyone who's as good as facility on facilitation and facilitating a room running a workshop like that than Chris.

[00:49:42] And Chris is very much an introvert. He just learn. He's just really good at being an acting like an extrovert. That doesn't mean that he is an extrovert. I was, I would say, according to me, that he's very much an introvert. But so that's true what you're saying. We can be who we are and embrace all of that, but we can learn skills.

[00:50:11] And show up in a way, and then we, then we become complete. So, I think if people don't believe introverts can do it, just look at Chris.

[00:50:21] Hannah: Yeah, 100%. And then there's 1 other thing that I really wanted to talk with you about. and it's actually the reason why, I reached out to you in the 1st place and it was this piece around attention and you posted about, you know, that you obviously help other people get attention. And you also shared about some of the struggles that you feel internally around, you know, is it okay to want to have attention to a certain point?

[00:50:51] You know, is attention a bad thing? Is it bad if I want attention for, for some things? And I always feel like this is something that my audience struggles with

[00:51:00] Anneli: to the extent where they would say, don't love, I don't love to be in the spotlight, but I want my work to be seen. I want my work to be acknowledged.

[00:51:09] Hannah: I want attention. For my work, talk to me about, how you feel about attention

[00:51:15] Anneli: how might introverts get attention in a way that is not, you know, to in your face to outgoing to, you know, awkward.

[00:51:25] Yeah. Okay. I guess. Okay. So let me start with how I see attention first, because I, many countries in the world, we have a culture when it's not socially accepted. To want to be seen or to want to stand out. If you want to be really good, or if you want to be exceptional at what you're doing, or if you actually want to, to have a really high goals and want something, then you need to be seen.

[00:52:01] So that often the effect of that will often be that. In, especially in Sweden, we have this law of Jante, and I think it's called tall poppy syndrome or something like that in the UK is this just different version of it, like in the, in kind of the entire world, except us,

[00:52:20] Hannah: It does sound German, too.

[00:52:22] Anneli: Yeah, exactly.

[00:52:23] But in the U S they love themselves and they're kind of, they got to hear from, they grow up, you are something special. You're supposed to stand out. And here it's the opposite. It's like. Don't think you're more special than someone else that's being humble. It's like, not that I'm not good, it's but, but don't think you're more than someone else.

[00:52:46] Meaning, don't be so much. Be quiet. Don't be so loud. Don't be on stage. Don't take up so much space. So I got to hear that my entire childhood. I love being on stage. Love, love, love. I love being in the center of attention. So when you get to hear that, then something is wrong with you. So I just started to try to adjust way I could, because it was a lot of shame around wanting recognition or wanting to be seen.

[00:53:19] So with that said, my struggles have been around that because I can honestly say, I know this is not. What I look, it doesn't make me look good, but I don't care if this is honest that I want my work to be seen to, I also love being in the spotlight. Like, I actually love being on the stage. You know, I get a lot of energy when people see me and listen to me.

[00:53:49] I love that. But I also love helping other people do it. Like, I want to see other people shine. That makes me so happy. So if I know how to get attention, maybe I can help other people do it too. It's just important that this attention, that this want or motivation, this ego. This is a big ego that I have wanting to be the center of attention.

[00:54:16] It can take over because that will kind of break me. And that's why my two word brand Chris came up with is Attention Broker. Because it's actually did break me, but it can also break me if I don't pay attention of doing it for the right reason. So I want to help creative shine and get attention. So we just need to think about how can I make you shine in a way.

[00:54:46] Where you feel comfortable around it and have a conversation. So, I think everyone is different. So, if I would work with you, then I would ask you, how would you, like, what's holding you back? Is it because sometimes it might not even be that you're shy, it might be something else that you don't believe in your ability or what you're doing, or can be a lot of different things.

[00:55:12] So we can't just assume that you don't want to be in the spotlight want to be seen because a lot of people actually get over that. And then they do amazing things. So I think we just need to have that conversation. How can I help you the best way? You know, I've been in podcasts. I've been on stage with people where I just said, I'm here with you.

[00:55:38] I'm beside you. I don't want to talk, but I'm here. Something happens. I will jump in and help you. So feel like you can relax. I'm just here for you. Because that's what Chris did for me when we started to be on stage. And I didn't want to speak English in front of people. And I was terrified. I needed to script it, everything.

[00:56:00] I was like a mess, but I had someone who said, you just speak when you're ready. And to have someone like that just means the world, you know, that's what I want to pay back and do that for other people. So that's how we can help. And you can help yourself as an introvert. Like, what is the, what is the reason why I don't want it? Is it really because I just want to show my work or is it because I don't think I'm worthy or that I'm not good enough? Like, what is the reason? Because I have another friend, Heather Crank, she's an amazing creative soul, artist, motion graphic designer. She is very introverted. And she talks about it all the time, but now she's doing like podcasts, she's interviewing people.

[00:56:54] She's in the spotlight. You know, I loved seeing her since she's so good.

[00:56:59] Hannah: you'll have to give me her name.

[00:57:01] Anneli: Yeah, Heather Crank. No, she's amazing. So she would definitely be, your guess would be perfect. So that's what I'm saying. I don't think she didn't want to do it. We're just different challenges to start. To get to that place. So I don't like when people take assumptions that just because maybe you're a little bit more shy or quiet, means that you don't want to do it.

[00:57:27] Why not actually give people a chance and listen, and like how can I support you? Is this something you want to do? Because if it is, I know you can do it, and I'm here to support you. We just need to figure out a way.

[00:57:43] Hannah: And it starts by asking yourself, what's holding me back? Why, what, you know, what do I feel? Yeah. That makes a lot of sense for me. I think there's this misconception that introverts. Don't want to be in the spotlight, don't want to, progress their careers, are not interested. And that's one of the biggest myths out there, because there are a lot of introverts like me who are very ambitious.

[00:58:09] I don't mind the spotlight. And for me, it's often the sentiment of, and you know, very culturally true to what you said is, who does she think she is? That's almost like the voice inside myself, you know, how are people going to judge me? Especially those, you know, you've known in all your life and suddenly you're on Instagram and you're sharing career content and you're doing a podcast and who does she think she is?

[00:58:34] Have something to say. And that's a bit. A bit, a big piece of mindset to work through and to, to actually change that. And I always take a lot of comfort out of having conversations with someone like you who feels the same way and who is also out there and expressing themselves and articulating themselves and being seen and it's okay.

[00:58:59] And although we are in Europe, it's okay for us to do that too.

[00:59:04] Anneli: And, you know, I think that it's difficult to share with people that you struggle with different things, but it's just human. I mean, I think we all do that. We all have our, our own like internal things that we struggle with. I think it's easier to relate to people and kind of connect with people. If you're honest talking about those things, we just have different struggles.

[00:59:33] It's often grounded in some kind of fear, you know, and what do we really know because this is also something I've been have to work with so much. Like, is this really true what I'm saying right now? Or is it my brain creating self stories? Well, how people actually perceive me, what I think, how people judge me, what they say, is this really true?

[01:00:01] Or is it just in my own head? And very, very often it's in my own head. So when I, when I'm practicing, taking a little bit step back, try to not be so emotional. So often I need to go on a walk or something, calm down a little bit. And it's like, Do I really have proof for this? So if you say, for example, all people would say this, you know, who does she think she is and so on.

[01:00:29] Do you really know that? What if they're so proud of you? What if they're like so impressed? You're such a role model. Like I can't believe she's doing that. That's so cool. Maybe that is the case.

[01:00:42] Hannah: Yeah, that warms my heart just hearing it. And it's probably the truth. Yeah. Yeah.

[01:00:48] Anneli: You know, this is a little bit like parents sometimes. A little bit like my dad, he wouldn't say to me, but you know, when you often hear like, Oh, your dad always talk about you and your sister when that's when we're not there, you know, they could be like that with people, you know? Yeah.

[01:01:09] Hannah: So, reframing the thought, asking yourself, Is this really true? Do I have facts for this? Yeah. Makes a hell of a difference.

[01:01:20] Anneli: Yeah. Because that's, this is something, it's a lot of self work, you know, this year or last two years around things like this, because I think we're in our own way. It's not really, most people can do whatever we want in life. There's no limits. Except from ourselves.

[01:01:45] Hannah: Yeah. Yeah. We're, we're standing in our own way. and. Yeah, the self talk is really important in terms of, you know, what we tell ourselves, how we think about ourselves, how we talk about ourselves. that's a big piece of what I'm taking away from having this conversation with you is how can I look at myself from the outside?

[01:02:08] How can I start to appreciate all that I have to give and who I am? then I can always find ways to better myself, to improve myself, but starting with. I embrace who I am. I'm going to leverage the skills that I've been given and then I can improve over time. And most importantly, I can do whatever it is that I want to do.

[01:02:31] And that's really

[01:02:32] Anneli: you want. And but lean in for me, it's about leaning into your strength too, because I think that's where that's where the superpower is. But it's also that strength could also be hidden a little bit sometimes. Even could be connected to that shadow side of ourselves. So if you have that side that comes really natural for you when you said like, Oh, how do you think when you go into a room?

[01:03:03] Like, what do you ask that part is maybe to connect with people and talk to people is maybe the easiest thing for me, like that comes most natural. And then it's like, how can I use that? in my work because that's what I'm good at. But also, how can I help other people to do that? So I can give that gift to someone else.

[01:03:28] And what, so what is your gift and how can you help someone else do that? Because then I really think that we can grow so much because we're all good at different things.

[01:03:40] Hannah: Yeah, and the gifts can often be overlooked, as you say. It's, they, they may not be as apparent to you as they are to everyone else. So I always feel like it's a good exercise to ask other people who know you really well. What do you think?

[01:03:55] Anneli: Yes.

[01:03:55] Hannah: really well. What comes natural to me? what would you come to me for?

[01:04:00] It's uncomfortable questions to begin with and especially asking a friend, but. I've worked with people and they've had so many insights back from those conversations in terms of like, well, yeah, it's true. That comes natural to me. I wouldn't know how to explain how I do it in the first place, but yeah, maybe it's a strength that I have that I hadn't considered yet.

[01:04:20] So it's like you mentioned about the networking and ease of speaking to strangers. so yeah.

[01:04:28] Anneli: You know, I think also that I did, I started to do some work with around personal branding, 2015, when I got help actually to interview 12 people. So that was called like my professional reputation, which is basically your personal brand. So, but it's like two different parts, according to how I see a personal brand.

[01:04:52] One part is your true identity. To do that self discovery work and to go really deep, this is the work that I am very grateful that I got guidance from Chris, but that's the work I've been doing for a couple of years now. That is the difficult part because knowing who you are is the foundation for everything.

[01:05:14] If you don't know that, you will not be able to totally fully show up as yourself. And I think that's work for the rest of my life, but that's one part to know yourself. But then, for me, for personal branding, I also think it's important that the thing you said about what do people actually say about you?

[01:05:34] How does they perceive you? So my advice around that is actually not to ask people yourself is to ask. It doesn't have to be a coach or consultant. It could be a friend of yours and then that person. So you can just do the introduction, like to 12 people, for example. Who knows you well, but also who've been working with you, maybe some manager you had, people working under you, different people.

[01:06:02] And then the person ask the same question to you as they ask to this group of people, the 12 people and interview them, interview you.

[01:06:16] Hannah: Hmm.

[01:06:16] Anneli: when that person do that and you just introduce, Hey, I want to do this for my personal brand. I have someone with the reach out. Are you okay of answering questions?

[01:06:26] It will not be, it will be anonymous. So that person will not tell that

[01:06:32] Hannah: I want to hold

[01:06:32] Anneli: saying things. Yeah. So you can say whatever

[01:06:36] Hannah: It's important to be honest and open. So what happened is that you will get good things, not so good things, but you will get the truth.

[01:06:45] Like, almost like that 360 interview, feedback thing.

[01:06:48] Anneli: Yeah. So you get that from this person, people and from you, and then you can see the gap.

[01:06:54] And that gap is the gap between for me, what you, what I call the brand identity, who you are and the brand image, how people actually perceive you.

[01:07:08] Hannah: yeah,

[01:07:08] Anneli: if you don't want that gap, so if you see that, Oh, people perceive me this way and you know, this is not me, then we need to think about. What may, what am I, what am I doing for people to perceive me this way?

[01:07:23] Maybe it's my look. Maybe it's the way I talk. Maybe it's the way I behave. And I don't, I wasn't even aware that people perceive me this way. And it's not true. It's not me. Then we can actually make something to shape and change that perception. For me, that is branding. Yeah. Yeah.

[01:07:42] Hannah: It ties back to what, you know, what branding is. Like, when we talk about big brands, it works the same for your personal brand, doesn't it? In terms of that. Everybody does have a personal brand, whether or not they are intentional about it. Everybody is known for something and they'll always be, you know, you'll always have a certain reputation in the setting that you're in, whether it be the workplace, whether it be with your friends, you're always known for something.

[01:08:08] And I feel like the more intentional we become with understanding who we are, as you say, that's where you start. But then also, what are the elements that I want other people to remember about me? How can I become more intentional? And is there a mismatch, at the moment that I can tackle? I feel like that's so powerful.

[01:08:27] It often, personal branding often sounds like something not everyone needs, but I do really feel like it's, it's powerful, especially for introverts.

[01:08:39] Anneli: I think it's important for everyone because even if you work for a company. I mean, it's important for everyone because you have a professional reputation and that is your personal brand for me. And the difference between a personal brand and a company brand, the way I see it, or a corporate brand is that, like, I, I used to be a CMO and a CBO for like a multi billion dollar, company.

[01:09:08] And then when you work with so many people, like, you know, we were about 15, 000 employees in like 15 countries. And maybe we're like, I don't know exactly, but say that we were 500 or something and they had caught at the headquarter, there's a lot of people, a lot of departments that brand can not be the same way as a personal brand.

[01:09:33] Because it's the essence of everything. It's the essence in why the brand even starts from the beginning. In this case, it was like a hundred. Year old, like really, really old, like, why did they even start the brand? There's a story there. It's an identity there. It's values that sets the whole company culture.

[01:09:53] It's really important to know that. So you recruit the right people with values that aligns with this. So they can live the brand. And be that brand ambassadors, everyone who works at the company. So today people talk about employer branding more as how do we marketing the company for, you know, for talents or potential people they want to hire.

[01:10:19] For me, that's not really employer branding is actually that everyone who works at the company. Knows what the brand identity, like what the brand stands for. That is the true identity. It's not just visual. The true identity, who we are, what we believe in, why we exist. Why does it even matter why I should go to work every day?

[01:10:43] My little part in what I'm doing is part of a much bigger thing. What is that? And what's expected from me? What is it okay for me to do and express? And not so like, because we need to align all these and it starts with the company culture and the values and everything comes from that. So that's how we build a brand, like in a really big organization.

[01:11:08] So it is a little bit different because you need. That kind of people who keep everything together is not just the marketing department or the branding people. It's like every department needs to live and breathe the brand. And that takes a lot of work and a lot of structure and processes while your personal brand is very easy because it's just

[01:11:34] Hannah: Well, you say that.

[01:11:35] Anneli: you know, when you know who you are. And you know who you want to show, show up for, then you, then you can just be yourself and be very intentional what you do and make sure that that gap is not so misaligned, but you just manage yourself. You're not managing 500 people or 5, 000, 15, 000.

[01:11:56] Hannah: Yeah. Yeah. I do like how well the concepts compare though, in terms of branding, what it is. It starts with the identity. It starts with really knowing yourself. And once you have that element, and once you know what you want to stand for, then you can work on bringing it to life with others.

[01:12:15] Anneli: you know, the other day it's like a little bit sidetracked, but I do think it's relevant because the other day I was so happy about this. I don't like when people talk about that. It's just like about the users, just ask people, ask the market what they want and then we create it. What? No, don't do that.

[01:12:37] Start from the inside and know who you are. And then you need to find a group of people, a target that aligns with the value and the ambitions you have, the mission you have in life. You need to find a group of people who align with that. Then we can pause and think, okay, great. We're in alignment. We like each other.

[01:12:57] It's like a date. Now we can start figuring out how we can solve their problems. So that's just a little bit different approach. And then I listened to, there's a really, I love YouTube. It's like a YouTube university. You know, you can, I, I look at something called, Harvard innovation lab. And it's like, Oh my God, it feels like I'm going to Harvard.

[01:13:19] I don't even have a university. I'm like, I feel like a smart kid right now. I can watch all these Harvard innovation lab things. And that guy, they talk about the importance of starting with a clear vision and a mission and know your values and everything starts from there because people don't want to work with you unless you have that.

[01:13:43] And then you can talk about your value proposition and out of position. I'm just love that those business people at Harvard, people I'm scared of basically, that they actually say

[01:13:54] Hannah: They say the same thing.

[01:13:56] Anneli: You know, they say the same damn things.

[01:13:59] Hannah: Yeah. My marketing, my marketing professor used to say, marketing always starts there. It starts with the identity. It starts with the vision, the mission. It starts with the strategy and it's not going to change. So, you know, obviously the tools and the tactics change. And obviously, you know, we do things differently than we've done 20 years ago.

[01:14:21] But that concept hasn't changed and it won't ever change very likely. So

[01:14:26] Anneli: Yes, and marketing, people who say that marketing are tactics, marketing are just things that drive sales. They don't know what marketing is. They talk about advertising. Marketing is so much more than that. And we need to stop. Actually, now we do talk a lot about like introverts or extroverts, marketing or branding.

[01:14:50] In my future desired world, we don't put labels on things at all. We just like when you build a brand. You need to do marketing and branding. They're intertwined. It needs both. And I basically actually think sometimes that we could just change the name. It's the same thing in my framework for brand strategy.

[01:15:11] I would say it's 80 percent marketing strategy, but that's just. Scares a lot of designers, but it's true. so if we stop label ourselves, we can use labels if it helps us to understand each other. But sometimes I just feel like we're putting ourselves in a box. Like I am like this. And then I never have to work on myself.

[01:15:32] Then I never have to improve or, you know, could limit us a lot.

[01:15:42] Hannah: I love that. And I completely buy into your future of marketing and branding. it, it is all one and. Yeah. And, and we got to have both extroverted personalities, introverted personalities, whatever the spectrum offers to bring that to life beautifully.

[01:16:00] Anneli: And the more we're tired of advertising, the more important it is for all graphic designers and designer who's not doing advertising to realize that is what people want. That is what people need. And you have a place at that table. And if we can help find alternatives Instead of advertising, because when, when you have a big budget, most people who've come from the corporate side, they know that about 70 to 80 percent of your budget will go to media by.

[01:16:41] That's a lot. It's because that's how you create awareness. often. It's because you don't have any better alternative. So why not actually come up with things that could be an alternative? Or to say, this is how we can design the experience in all touch points. This is how we can use design to nudge a behavior so we make more sustainable choices.

[01:17:13] That's the future of designers. So we don't have to limit ourselves, like we're doing a brand identity design and packaging, no design the entire freaking company.

[01:17:26] Hannah: It's that holy grail of creating a poll from the market and not pushing in with like, you know, very loud, reach campaigns and lots of advertising. But it's like, how do I create a poll? How do I become something that everybody wants without me having to shout it from the rooftops?

[01:17:44] Anneli: And be that start, start being like Sherlock Holmes, everything you do when you walk around, be super curious. Think about it, like take notes or make voice memos to yourself. Take pictures and just like observe things, what you're doing so great, all of you observe things. I'm in a line waiting for meatballs at Ikea and I'm like, here's an opportunity to nudge your behavior.

[01:18:17] So we can buy, we can actually choose more vegetarian or vegan food instead. Excellent opportunity. Do they do it? No. So I take a couple of pictures and I'm like, I need to call them. I need to pitch this. That's how I do it. That's why I need to go back to client work because I can't stand seeing all the things everywhere that I want to do and I can't do it.

[01:18:43] So I'm like, no, I don't want to say I can't do it because I'm not doing client work anymore. Maybe I will do client work when I feel it's fun, when I want to do it. And then I document what I'm doing. That's my plan. I share it with people. And then I bring in my students and I bring the clients into the student sessions.

[01:19:03] That's the best way of learning by doing. But that's all of you can do it like because you will see things everywhere when you're observant and then you take pictures and actually then you have something that you can reach out to someone start talking about or maybe even actually show them an idea a sketch.

[01:19:26] That's how I got most of my fun client work, me finding an idea, seeing a problem, getting like an idea how I could solve it. Not like giving away everything, but basically pitching an idea and everyone can do this.

[01:19:45] Hannah: being being genuinely interested. Observing what's going on, taking notes, taking pictures, and then you've got an easy way in.

[01:19:55] Anneli: And then you take lead instead of sitting there and waiting and swearing that people ask about so boring things and don't pay you like, no, it's kind of, don't, don't be that victim. Like lead and see what you want to do instead, because you're amazing. I mean, I admire, I really admire designers so much.

[01:20:18] I admire creative souls. who have that ability to, to think and to solve problems and then to translate that into two words that touches people's hearts or stories or designs. Just beautiful.

[01:20:39] Hannah: I feel like this brings us back to what we've discussed at the beginning is like, you know, why do you work with designers? And it feels so genuine. It feels so warm. Come to, you're so passionate about this Anneliese. So it's, it's amazing to see. I resonate with a lot of what you said. I'm taking a lot of notes today.

[01:20:56] I know my audience does too. So, thank you so much for coming on. Thank you so much for having this conversation with me, for being so open and for dropping so much wisdom about branding and, you know, marketing strategy, I could go on and on, but we've got to stop somewhere, so. Let the audience know how they can find you and potentially work with you.

[01:21:18] Anyone who feels like they want to step into the spotlight and don't know quite yet how to do that. let them know how to contact you and how to work with you.

[01:21:28] Anneli: Okay. So if you're just starting out and you're a little bit curious about brand strategy, what it is, that first introduction, like the fundamentals of, of it, and you don't want to invest so much money. Then I have a course for the future called brand strategy fundamentals. You can find it at the future website.

[01:21:47] I also have a bootcamp. If you want to practice it with a real client and actually be with me live for six weeks and really like practice all the steps. So, you know, a little bit more in depth, how to do it, how to facilitate and how to do it. Then I have my bootcamp and then I have a level up course, which is even more advanced.

[01:22:11] And then you do work with. Smaller groups with clients, and it's going to be a lot of fun things this next time we do it because I bring in another teacher who will teach together with me, which will be amazing, a little bit more focus on behavior, behavior studies and how we can nudge behavior because that's important.

[01:22:31] So that's the difference ways how I teach. And then I do one on one coaching. The only way to book me for one on one coaching right now is from the futures website. so I'm one of their official coaches with Chris and Ben, and so you can book me there if you want to. so I think that's, that's it. I, otherwise I have a community and so my community is very much like, I love, I love introverts.

[01:22:58] I love creative people. So it's like, if you feel like I took the course, I took the fundamentals or your bootcamp, but now I'm sitting here on my own, I feel a little bit alone. I don't know how to price this. I get imposter syndrome. What am I doing? You know. In the community, we support each other and I bring in clients.

[01:23:20] I ask you, I help you in hot seats. I'm just basically being there to support you. So that's, that's my coaching community. And you can find everything that I do on anneliehansen. com. So that's my website. yeah, so it's a lot of different things, but it's courses and it's coaching. And some glide work soon.

[01:23:40] So, yeah, I

[01:23:43] Hannah: links in the show notes, for everyone to access. Annalie, thank you very, very much for joining me today. It was a pleasure having you on and speaking with you. Thank you.

[01:23:54] Anneli: want to say thank you so much for letting me be here. And the last thing I want, I forgot to say that I want to say this is that I also try to give away as much as possible. So, in my content, if you don't have any money, if you don't want to pay for this or to work with me that way on Instagram and LinkedIn, I really try to share it.

[01:24:17] A lot. so my Instagram is basically like teaching for beginners how to get started. So, and, the, the Anneli Hansson is my handle everywhere. So the Anneli Hansson, if you want to find me on Instagram,

[01:24:34] Hannah: Follow Annelie on Instagram. It's, one of the things that lights me up daily in my feed.

[01:24:41] Anneli: thank you so, so much. I'm just going to start doing reels too. So hold me accountable for