1 00:00:01,035 --> 00:00:02,905 Jason: There's this rush that comes. 2 00:00:03,820 --> 00:00:09,970 Just by the act of learning it, that makes the effort to learn the thing worth it. 3 00:00:10,507 --> 00:00:12,777 I used to joke that my role at Gatsby was human duct tape. 4 00:00:12,777 --> 00:00:15,477 I think I got hired because I could do a little bit of everything 5 00:00:16,927 --> 00:00:20,317 Eddie: Welcome to Episode 1 of the WebJoy podcast. 6 00:00:20,647 --> 00:00:21,637 I'm your host Eddie. 7 00:00:21,967 --> 00:00:25,747 In this podcast, we interview guests about their origin story and what 8 00:00:25,747 --> 00:00:29,467 makes them excited and joyful to be part of the tech community. 9 00:00:29,827 --> 00:00:31,807 I hope you enjoy today's episode. 10 00:00:32,497 --> 00:00:35,457 "Play Until it Pays" with Jason Lengstorf 11 00:00:35,830 --> 00:00:37,600 Thanks for joining us today, Jason. 12 00:00:37,660 --> 00:00:39,520 I'm really excited to have you on 13 00:00:40,750 --> 00:00:41,560 Jason: Thanks for inviting me. 14 00:00:42,410 --> 00:00:45,270 Eddie: To start off, let's just talk about, who you are, what 15 00:00:45,270 --> 00:00:48,900 you do, where you work, you know, brief introduction about yourself. 16 00:00:49,005 --> 00:00:49,455 Jason: Sure. 17 00:00:49,555 --> 00:00:50,835 I'm Jason Lengstorf. 18 00:00:51,315 --> 00:00:55,525 I'm the VP of Developer Experience at Netlify and the host of Learn with Jason. 19 00:00:55,955 --> 00:01:00,305 At Netlify Developer Experience is kind of how we interact with everything 20 00:01:00,305 --> 00:01:05,750 around the product, across engineering, sales, marketing, community, uh, just 21 00:01:05,750 --> 00:01:07,390 anywhere you might end up, we help. 22 00:01:07,440 --> 00:01:10,500 Then on learn with Jason, I do pair programming with somebody from the 23 00:01:10,500 --> 00:01:13,410 community a couple of times a week to, help people learn something new 24 00:01:13,410 --> 00:01:16,330 in 90 minutes and they can kind of follow along as I build it live. 25 00:01:16,914 --> 00:01:17,274 Eddie: Awesome. 26 00:01:17,454 --> 00:01:18,954 That sounds really fun. 27 00:01:19,014 --> 00:01:19,554 Um, yeah. 28 00:01:19,554 --> 00:01:22,944 I guess developer experience is pretty different in a company that 29 00:01:22,944 --> 00:01:25,254 literally exists for developers. 30 00:01:25,494 --> 00:01:27,534 Jason: Yeah, I think when you're talking about developer tooling, 31 00:01:27,534 --> 00:01:31,824 there's definitely more space for, the whole company is trying to 32 00:01:31,824 --> 00:01:33,594 build a great developer experience. 33 00:01:33,624 --> 00:01:35,064 That's the core value prop. 34 00:01:35,574 --> 00:01:41,414 So the scope of what developer experience does I think expands or contracts based on 35 00:01:41,414 --> 00:01:44,054 how much of your audience are developers. 36 00:01:44,274 --> 00:01:47,964 I think we're seeing more and more of that at companies around the industry. 37 00:01:47,964 --> 00:01:50,714 You know, hotels need developer experience teams because they have 38 00:01:51,004 --> 00:01:53,924 APIs and, places that you would never expect it are actually in 39 00:01:53,924 --> 00:01:55,874 need of a developer experience. 40 00:01:55,874 --> 00:01:58,144 It's a very interesting industry to be part of right now. 41 00:01:58,984 --> 00:01:59,554 Eddie: That's awesome. 42 00:01:59,614 --> 00:02:02,134 That's really encouraging because I think for a long time 43 00:02:02,174 --> 00:02:03,644 that wasn't as much in focus. 44 00:02:03,644 --> 00:02:07,634 As developers, like great, there are people thinking about our needs 45 00:02:07,634 --> 00:02:11,594 and for those who enjoy focusing on developer experience, it just means 46 00:02:11,594 --> 00:02:13,399 there's that much more opportunity. 47 00:02:14,209 --> 00:02:14,779 Jason: Absolutely. 48 00:02:14,779 --> 00:02:14,989 Yeah. 49 00:02:14,989 --> 00:02:18,629 I think, we've seen the world shift from, being online was a choice 50 00:02:18,659 --> 00:02:20,339 to being online as a necessity. 51 00:02:20,339 --> 00:02:23,699 I think, especially with the pandemic, we accelerated to the point where any 52 00:02:23,699 --> 00:02:28,319 company in the world at this point needs to have some form of online presence. 53 00:02:28,379 --> 00:02:32,579 And that means that there's a lot of work out there for developers, because 54 00:02:32,609 --> 00:02:36,239 just about everybody who wants to make money needs to do some portion of that 55 00:02:36,239 --> 00:02:40,869 online and that requires some help from developers, whether you're building 56 00:02:40,869 --> 00:02:45,129 the tools that would let somebody build something without a developer, 57 00:02:45,129 --> 00:02:49,499 like Wix or Squarespace, or these apps that are kind of like WYSIWYG builders 58 00:02:49,499 --> 00:02:53,069 for folks, they need developers to work on those tools and then anybody 59 00:02:53,069 --> 00:02:54,479 else who's building something custom. 60 00:02:54,839 --> 00:02:57,419 They're going to have to either hire a contractor or hire 61 00:02:57,419 --> 00:02:58,979 in-house developers to work on it. 62 00:02:59,029 --> 00:03:01,739 A lot of opportunity out there for folks in the development space. 63 00:03:03,359 --> 00:03:03,899 Eddie: That's awesome. 64 00:03:04,654 --> 00:03:08,184 So how did you get involved in Developer Experience? 65 00:03:08,184 --> 00:03:12,694 What's the short version of your story, how you got involved in tech and how this 66 00:03:12,694 --> 00:03:14,224 is the area that you kind of ended up. 67 00:03:15,739 --> 00:03:18,999 Jason: So I, have this, phrase that I repeat a lot, which is play until 68 00:03:18,999 --> 00:03:22,209 it pays and the reason I say that is because that's been my whole career. 69 00:03:22,359 --> 00:03:28,029 I started out as a musician and as I was making music, my band needed 70 00:03:28,449 --> 00:03:30,263 t-shirts and we needed posters. 71 00:03:30,263 --> 00:03:33,623 So I got into design and then we wanted to put those on our MySpace page. 72 00:03:33,623 --> 00:03:37,563 So I figured out enough development to put the designs up on MySpace 73 00:03:37,583 --> 00:03:38,903 and then I wanted to do more. 74 00:03:38,903 --> 00:03:41,753 So I learned a little bit of a JavaScript, a little bit of flash 75 00:03:41,783 --> 00:03:43,733 and started building websites. 76 00:03:43,733 --> 00:03:47,233 And then, over the course of the band's tenure, I learned enough that 77 00:03:47,233 --> 00:03:51,463 I was effectively running a small single client agency from my band. 78 00:03:51,463 --> 00:03:54,643 I was just doing everything they needed online to function. 79 00:03:55,163 --> 00:03:59,583 So when the band broke up, I decided I didn't want to start another band. 80 00:03:59,583 --> 00:04:01,503 And instead I started a web development agency. 81 00:04:01,503 --> 00:04:05,273 I went and found a few clients, built projects for them, found out what I 82 00:04:05,273 --> 00:04:08,783 liked and what I didn't like ended up working in just about every role in there. 83 00:04:08,783 --> 00:04:09,893 I was the sales person. 84 00:04:09,893 --> 00:04:11,093 I was the manager. 85 00:04:11,093 --> 00:04:13,433 I was the lead developer. 86 00:04:13,433 --> 00:04:14,933 I was the designer, sometimes. 87 00:04:14,933 --> 00:04:16,728 In all of those roles. 88 00:04:16,728 --> 00:04:19,998 I got to learn a lot about what the things were that I enjoyed the most. 89 00:04:19,998 --> 00:04:23,638 So when I sold the agency, I decided that I would pursue the 90 00:04:23,638 --> 00:04:26,548 things that I had the most fun, doing, such a couple of contracts. 91 00:04:26,548 --> 00:04:29,968 Then I went to IBM, worked as a front end architect, and then you know, 92 00:04:30,028 --> 00:04:33,088 I liked a lot about the front-end architecture part and started 93 00:04:33,088 --> 00:04:36,703 doing a lot of internal education there because that was fun for me. 94 00:04:36,703 --> 00:04:37,633 We built some tools. 95 00:04:37,633 --> 00:04:40,393 I wanted the other developers at IBM to learn how they worked and get 96 00:04:40,393 --> 00:04:41,713 excited so that they would use them. 97 00:04:42,073 --> 00:04:45,223 So I was doing internal developer advocacy without realizing 98 00:04:45,223 --> 00:04:46,123 that was what I was doing. 99 00:04:46,583 --> 00:04:51,293 Then saw an opportunity to do that externally and joined Gatsby as sort of, 100 00:04:51,293 --> 00:04:53,363 as an engineer and sort of, I don't know. 101 00:04:53,373 --> 00:04:55,643 I used to joke that my role at Gatsby was human duct tape. 102 00:04:55,643 --> 00:04:57,803 I think I got hired because I could do a little bit of 103 00:04:57,803 --> 00:04:59,273 everything and they would just. 104 00:05:00,228 --> 00:05:01,338 You know, say, oh, there's a problem. 105 00:05:01,338 --> 00:05:02,568 And I was like, I'll figure it out. 106 00:05:04,858 --> 00:05:08,328 And then when I left Gatsby, I went to Netlify explicitly 107 00:05:08,328 --> 00:05:09,468 in developer experience. 108 00:05:09,888 --> 00:05:12,648 And uh, that's, you know, that's where I still am today. 109 00:05:13,073 --> 00:05:13,493 Eddie: Awesome. 110 00:05:13,573 --> 00:05:15,686 That's a fun, interesting journey. 111 00:05:15,766 --> 00:05:18,160 I have to ask what kind of music did your band do?. 112 00:05:18,266 --> 00:05:23,696 Jason: Just the most cliche, emo screamy, sad music. 113 00:05:23,726 --> 00:05:27,086 Uh, this was in 2005. 114 00:05:27,146 --> 00:05:29,906 We were a heavily touring screamo band. 115 00:05:29,906 --> 00:05:34,546 And so we played shows with like, if, you know, from first to last, which is the 116 00:05:34,546 --> 00:05:36,586 band that the lead singer became Scrillex. 117 00:05:37,016 --> 00:05:41,636 We played a warp tour with Scrillex and we would open for 118 00:05:41,636 --> 00:05:44,666 like the band that became 3 0 3. 119 00:05:44,666 --> 00:05:47,756 Some of those guys were in a metal band called Gray Scale. 120 00:05:47,756 --> 00:05:49,556 And we played shows with Gray Scale. 121 00:05:49,796 --> 00:05:51,466 So I, you know, weird stuff like that. 122 00:05:51,466 --> 00:05:53,746 There's like mainstream, like top 40. 123 00:05:53,746 --> 00:05:56,266 And then there's the bands that like support the top 40. 124 00:05:56,266 --> 00:05:58,006 And then there's the bands of the open for those bands. 125 00:05:58,006 --> 00:05:58,906 We were that tier. 126 00:06:01,350 --> 00:06:01,980 Eddie: Nice. 127 00:06:02,130 --> 00:06:03,690 Hey, you gotta be somewhere right. 128 00:06:03,690 --> 00:06:05,780 As long as you're doing something you're passionate about. 129 00:06:06,510 --> 00:06:09,150 Jason: I mean, there's a reason I got into web dev and not into music. 130 00:06:12,220 --> 00:06:13,090 Eddie: Fair enough. 131 00:06:13,420 --> 00:06:17,860 Well, what kind of keeps you excited and interested in tech, right? 132 00:06:17,860 --> 00:06:20,830 You've got into it, you've gone all this way, but why do you stay there 133 00:06:20,830 --> 00:06:24,140 rather than transitioning on to something else that interests you? 134 00:06:25,005 --> 00:06:28,635 Jason: The short answer is that I've somehow managed to make my job into 135 00:06:28,635 --> 00:06:33,755 tinkering as a profession, through the expertise and experience the 136 00:06:33,775 --> 00:06:35,335 network that I've been able to build. 137 00:06:36,085 --> 00:06:40,925 My job is stuff like Learn with Jason and if you watch the show, I 138 00:06:41,035 --> 00:06:44,005 pair with somebody in the community who is an expert on something. 139 00:06:44,395 --> 00:06:48,205 I go in completely unprepared, ask all the beginner questions. 140 00:06:48,205 --> 00:06:53,275 They walk me through building an app from scratch and I get to see how a tool works. 141 00:06:53,950 --> 00:06:56,470 And there's a live chat that watches it. 142 00:06:56,470 --> 00:06:59,500 They ask questions, we all joke around and laugh together. 143 00:06:59,920 --> 00:07:03,280 And at the end of it, we've learned how to use a new tool. 144 00:07:03,370 --> 00:07:06,790 We've introduced ourselves to another expert in the community, and we 145 00:07:06,790 --> 00:07:07,950 had a really good time doing it. 146 00:07:08,515 --> 00:07:11,605 Somehow I collect a paycheck from this, right? 147 00:07:11,655 --> 00:07:17,095 It's very much that kind of experience of, I screwed around in this job and 148 00:07:17,095 --> 00:07:22,495 just did whatever was fun for me for my whole career and at some point 149 00:07:22,495 --> 00:07:26,725 I was able to get rid of all of the parts of the job that weren't fun. 150 00:07:27,295 --> 00:07:33,880 And now I just get to be silly and tinker and play and that's the whole career. 151 00:07:33,910 --> 00:07:35,320 So that's kind of what keeps me here. 152 00:07:35,320 --> 00:07:35,500 Right? 153 00:07:35,550 --> 00:07:38,970 If I were to leave maybe I'd go to culinary school cause I love to cook or 154 00:07:38,970 --> 00:07:43,110 maybe I would try to be a writer because I like to write, but in all those places, 155 00:07:43,160 --> 00:07:47,130 I'm not able to play because I have a lot of skills that I need to build. 156 00:07:47,640 --> 00:07:50,850 So I wanna to do that stuff with no stakes. 157 00:07:50,850 --> 00:07:52,110 I don't want to make that my job. 158 00:07:53,010 --> 00:07:55,770 Because I have this very fun and playful job now. 159 00:07:56,170 --> 00:07:59,330 Also my friends in the in the food industry they're not making tech salaries, 160 00:07:59,330 --> 00:08:03,180 you know, writers aren't making tech salaries and I would be remiss not to say 161 00:08:03,210 --> 00:08:05,180 like I'm in this industry for the money. 162 00:08:06,525 --> 00:08:09,735 If I could make as much money doing other things, as I make in tech, I'd 163 00:08:09,735 --> 00:08:13,875 probably have a harder decision to make, it's very rare that you can just 164 00:08:13,875 --> 00:08:18,405 make the pile of money that a lot of people make in tech, in other places. 165 00:08:18,658 --> 00:08:19,258 Eddie: No, for sure. 166 00:08:19,268 --> 00:08:25,163 We are so fortunate to be, the vast majority of us doing things 167 00:08:25,163 --> 00:08:29,363 that we find are fun and as you said, most of it is playing. 168 00:08:29,373 --> 00:08:32,073 Of course you have bugs and different things that people 169 00:08:32,073 --> 00:08:34,053 encounter that aren't fun. 170 00:08:34,053 --> 00:08:37,593 But the vast majority is thinking of interesting things and figuring 171 00:08:37,593 --> 00:08:41,213 out how to do it and problem solving and stuff that makes us tick. 172 00:08:41,333 --> 00:08:41,813 We get paid. 173 00:08:42,593 --> 00:08:43,793 Pretty handsomely to do it. 174 00:08:43,893 --> 00:08:47,313 Compared to other industries, we make an amazing amount of money. 175 00:08:47,313 --> 00:08:48,743 So it's a huge blessing. 176 00:08:49,313 --> 00:08:49,613 Jason: Yeah. 177 00:08:49,633 --> 00:08:54,203 I think this industry, like every industry I think has its challenges. 178 00:08:54,203 --> 00:08:56,873 And I think there are a lot of things about tech that, that just drive me 179 00:08:56,873 --> 00:09:00,633 up a wall and that I feel like why do we get in our own way so much? 180 00:09:00,663 --> 00:09:05,673 But, I try to balance that against the fact that, the people who are able to work 181 00:09:05,673 --> 00:09:10,918 in this industry just have mobility like this feels like the industry that when 182 00:09:10,918 --> 00:09:15,878 we look back on, how did upward mobility work in the 2000s it's software, you got 183 00:09:15,878 --> 00:09:20,658 into tech, and that was a way for you to go from nothing to wealthy, right? 184 00:09:20,658 --> 00:09:23,448 I feel like we're going to have stories like that when we look at the history 185 00:09:23,448 --> 00:09:27,438 books and just about everybody in this era is going to be involved in tech somehow. 186 00:09:27,693 --> 00:09:29,443 Eddie: Yeah, that makes complete sense. 187 00:09:30,083 --> 00:09:30,953 It's interesting, right? 188 00:09:30,953 --> 00:09:34,933 Cause you've kind of made learning your job and that really sticks out 189 00:09:34,933 --> 00:09:39,103 because as we were talking to prepare for this, we landed on the main thing 190 00:09:39,103 --> 00:09:43,483 we wanted to talk about was lifelong learning and continuous improvement. 191 00:09:43,583 --> 00:09:48,043 Of course you've made it a job, but, I guess for you, what does that mean? 192 00:09:48,043 --> 00:09:51,763 To be a lifelong learner and to continually improve yourself. 193 00:09:52,116 --> 00:09:52,596 Jason: Yeah. 194 00:09:52,596 --> 00:09:56,276 So this is a good question and kind of a nuanced one. 195 00:09:56,276 --> 00:10:00,366 So I'm going to start by, I guess, telling a story: when I was a 196 00:10:00,366 --> 00:10:09,421 kid, I remember I had chores as a kid and I hated doing my chores. 197 00:10:09,481 --> 00:10:14,981 And so I would always try to get out of doing them and, my dad 198 00:10:16,331 --> 00:10:19,281 would just like, not let me slide. 199 00:10:19,961 --> 00:10:21,911 (Laughing) He'd say go clean the garage. 200 00:10:21,911 --> 00:10:26,471 And so I'd go up there and I would see if I could just wave the broom around the 201 00:10:26,471 --> 00:10:29,261 garage and then he'd let me say I did it. 202 00:10:29,261 --> 00:10:30,491 And he didn't let that slide. 203 00:10:30,491 --> 00:10:31,841 So he'd go out and he'd look at the garage. 204 00:10:31,841 --> 00:10:32,501 So he didn't do it. 205 00:10:32,501 --> 00:10:33,761 Get back out there sweep the garage. 206 00:10:34,331 --> 00:10:37,601 So I'd get back out there and I would see if maybe I can hide the dirt. 207 00:10:37,601 --> 00:10:37,841 Right. 208 00:10:37,841 --> 00:10:39,951 maybe I can put this dirt somewhere where he won't see 209 00:10:39,971 --> 00:10:42,011 it and then he'd come back out. 210 00:10:42,011 --> 00:10:43,241 And he said, no, look the dirt's over there. 211 00:10:43,241 --> 00:10:44,921 You got to get the dirt out of the garage, you know? 212 00:10:45,701 --> 00:10:47,951 And by this time I'm furious, I'm crying. 213 00:10:47,951 --> 00:10:49,831 I'm like, I don't want to, I don't want, want to do this. 214 00:10:49,861 --> 00:10:51,071 I just want to play my video game. 215 00:10:51,611 --> 00:10:57,246 And he came out and he goes, look, you're going to have jobs like this, that 216 00:10:57,246 --> 00:10:59,226 you have to get done your whole life. 217 00:10:59,256 --> 00:11:01,386 And there are two ways that you can approach this. 218 00:11:01,386 --> 00:11:08,106 You can be mad and be frustrated and be stuck, or you can learn how to do it well, 219 00:11:08,346 --> 00:11:12,516 and you can do it right the first time, and then it's over and you can go back 220 00:11:12,516 --> 00:11:13,926 and do the stuff that you wanted to do. 221 00:11:14,256 --> 00:11:18,496 And this kind of stuck in my head, because what I realized was 222 00:11:18,496 --> 00:11:21,441 that A work, doesn't go away. 223 00:11:21,491 --> 00:11:25,701 You can either frustrate somebody into doing your work for you, or 224 00:11:25,701 --> 00:11:27,171 you can do that work yourself. 225 00:11:27,591 --> 00:11:30,931 And I think that, I have been the person who frustrates 226 00:11:30,931 --> 00:11:32,491 somebody into doing work for me. 227 00:11:32,521 --> 00:11:36,336 While it's nice to not do that work, it ends up making the 228 00:11:36,336 --> 00:11:37,716 relationship hard over time. 229 00:11:37,716 --> 00:11:42,036 So I don't want to be that person and I also don't like being bad at things. 230 00:11:42,036 --> 00:11:47,046 So when I am learning a new skill, I started paying attention as a kid. 231 00:11:47,851 --> 00:11:50,431 To what was it that helped me learn? 232 00:11:50,431 --> 00:11:56,401 So not just the thing I was learning, but really trying to learn how to learn and 233 00:11:56,701 --> 00:12:01,261 because I would think about, okay, so I learned this now, what made that click? 234 00:12:01,261 --> 00:12:01,501 Okay. 235 00:12:01,501 --> 00:12:03,541 So the next time I'm learning something, maybe I try it 236 00:12:03,541 --> 00:12:05,381 like this and I taught myself. 237 00:12:05,916 --> 00:12:10,296 How I learn personally, like what it is that makes things sticking in my 238 00:12:10,296 --> 00:12:14,886 brain and or what makes a pattern work so that I can do it from muscle memory 239 00:12:14,886 --> 00:12:19,656 or whatever that thing is so that I can learn quickly because then I am maybe 240 00:12:19,656 --> 00:12:24,966 not great at a thing, but I'm at least not incapable of doing it, you know? 241 00:12:24,966 --> 00:12:27,606 I can muddle my way through and do an okay job. 242 00:12:28,116 --> 00:12:33,396 And because I spent a bunch of time learning how to learn. 243 00:12:34,331 --> 00:12:37,001 At some point, learning became really fun for me. 244 00:12:37,211 --> 00:12:42,461 So now if I walk into a painting class, like I can't paint, but if you show me how 245 00:12:42,461 --> 00:12:46,621 to hold the brush and some of the strokes, I'm not going to make a masterpiece, 246 00:12:46,621 --> 00:12:49,081 but I'm going to make something that at least looks like a painting. 247 00:12:49,501 --> 00:12:52,401 And if you show me how to do yard work, I'm not gonna get 248 00:12:52,401 --> 00:12:53,746 it a hundred percent right. 249 00:12:53,806 --> 00:12:56,346 But I can figure out how to work those tools or how to plant 250 00:12:56,346 --> 00:12:57,726 something or how to prune a bush. 251 00:12:58,176 --> 00:13:00,706 I don't want to, but I can figure it out. 252 00:13:00,956 --> 00:13:05,396 I like the experience of being able to walk into a situation and 253 00:13:05,396 --> 00:13:08,876 learn a new recipe, learn how to use a new tool, learn a new piece 254 00:13:08,876 --> 00:13:10,796 of tech, whatever that thing is. 255 00:13:10,896 --> 00:13:12,766 There's this rush that comes. 256 00:13:13,681 --> 00:13:19,831 Just by the act of learning it, that makes the effort to learn the thing worth it. 257 00:13:19,861 --> 00:13:25,001 And what I've found for me at least is that effort of learning, being 258 00:13:25,001 --> 00:13:29,571 something that is rewarding in itself helps me push through that 259 00:13:29,601 --> 00:13:33,021 initial frustration of not being good at the thing I'm trying to learn. 260 00:13:33,501 --> 00:13:38,671 So when I see that I'm breaking down a new skill into a list of steps and 261 00:13:38,671 --> 00:13:42,401 processes and heuristics and things that I can use to help me learn more 262 00:13:42,401 --> 00:13:47,311 quickly, I am focused on the skill of learning that I feel like I'm good at. 263 00:13:47,976 --> 00:13:52,536 And that helps me offset the skill that I'm attempting to learn that I'm bad 264 00:13:52,536 --> 00:13:56,706 at, because I feel like I'm doing a good job of progressing as a learner. 265 00:13:57,186 --> 00:14:01,406 So it fills that initial gap that I feel like people have to get through 266 00:14:01,406 --> 00:14:04,626 where you learn that there's a skill and then you try it and you're bad at it. 267 00:14:04,626 --> 00:14:07,356 And you're like, I don't want to put the work in to get good at this. 268 00:14:07,826 --> 00:14:10,556 But if I'm doing the thing that I feel like I'm good at, which is learning, then 269 00:14:10,556 --> 00:14:11,906 I'm like, okay, how can I break this down? 270 00:14:11,906 --> 00:14:13,226 How can I make this make sense to me? 271 00:14:13,586 --> 00:14:17,306 And by the time I've gotten past that point, I'm at least 272 00:14:17,366 --> 00:14:19,466 able to like complete the task. 273 00:14:19,466 --> 00:14:22,766 You try to learn something like how to do origami or something and you get it 274 00:14:22,766 --> 00:14:24,866 for you to just crumple up the paper and you will, you're like, ah, this 275 00:14:24,866 --> 00:14:26,336 is, I'm never going to be good at this. 276 00:14:26,336 --> 00:14:26,516 Right. 277 00:14:27,746 --> 00:14:29,576 But if you can get to the point where, okay, I can make the 278 00:14:29,576 --> 00:14:31,646 swan, like I can do the Swan. 279 00:14:32,486 --> 00:14:32,816 Yeah. 280 00:14:32,846 --> 00:14:34,826 And if I can do that, then I can do anything. 281 00:14:34,826 --> 00:14:35,156 Right. 282 00:14:35,156 --> 00:14:38,666 So the learning to learn polyfills that initial part. 283 00:14:38,666 --> 00:14:43,916 It gets me to the: what's the 101 outcome of somebody who's gone through this skill 284 00:14:44,166 --> 00:14:45,826 then it's fun then you're making progress. 285 00:14:45,826 --> 00:14:47,236 You're not trying to get over the initial hump. 286 00:14:48,169 --> 00:14:52,949 Eddie: I know this term is overused, but kind of the gamification of learning 287 00:14:52,949 --> 00:14:56,699 in a way, and not a gimmicky way, but a lot of times you play game and there is 288 00:14:56,699 --> 00:14:58,349 no ultimate value in that game, right? 289 00:14:58,379 --> 00:15:03,039 The enjoyment, like I would play RPGs and a lot of times you need a certain 290 00:15:03,039 --> 00:15:05,219 amount of levels to beat the boss. 291 00:15:05,289 --> 00:15:08,949 So you'd literally go in circles and fight the same monsters over and over again. 292 00:15:08,949 --> 00:15:13,029 And that isn't actually progression and it's like, there's something about 293 00:15:13,189 --> 00:15:17,809 learning what to do, learning what not to do and finding the process. 294 00:15:17,809 --> 00:15:20,389 I think the enjoyment rather than. 295 00:15:20,949 --> 00:15:24,319 Hoping of course you'll get to a destination, but, enjoying 296 00:15:24,319 --> 00:15:27,909 the process I guess, is really how you get to that end point. 297 00:15:27,909 --> 00:15:29,209 Is that kind of accurate? 298 00:15:29,719 --> 00:15:33,199 Jason: Yeah, I think there's definitely the enjoying the process. 299 00:15:33,199 --> 00:15:38,059 And then I think there's also the other part of it is what makes 300 00:15:38,059 --> 00:15:41,929 a skill fun is the flow state. 301 00:15:42,379 --> 00:15:46,819 Being able to do something that you're competent at and it's like 302 00:15:46,819 --> 00:15:51,289 when you're learning to play guitar, you pick up a guitar and you have to 303 00:15:51,289 --> 00:15:55,399 think really hard about where your left hand is, where your fingers. 304 00:15:55,399 --> 00:15:58,219 And then you have to think about where your right hand is and 305 00:15:58,219 --> 00:15:59,539 which string am I going to push? 306 00:15:59,839 --> 00:16:04,244 And then you like, plunk plunk plunk, and it kind of works, but now you don't have 307 00:16:04,304 --> 00:16:05,984 mental capacity to think about rhythm. 308 00:16:05,984 --> 00:16:08,084 You don't have mental capacity to think about feel. 309 00:16:08,294 --> 00:16:10,034 You're just trying to make it make a sound. 310 00:16:10,484 --> 00:16:13,934 And when you're really good, you just sit down and play. 311 00:16:13,934 --> 00:16:15,524 You don't have to think about where your hands are. 312 00:16:15,524 --> 00:16:17,114 You just know to make some noise. 313 00:16:17,114 --> 00:16:17,414 Right. 314 00:16:17,834 --> 00:16:21,374 When I code because I've been doing it for so long, I don't have to 315 00:16:21,374 --> 00:16:22,934 think about what the syntax is. 316 00:16:22,934 --> 00:16:25,184 I don't have to think about how a for-loop is structured. 317 00:16:25,184 --> 00:16:30,284 I can just play and that is due to a ton of practice. 318 00:16:30,854 --> 00:16:33,744 But when you get to a new skill, you can't get into that flow state. 319 00:16:33,744 --> 00:16:34,854 You can't just sit down and play. 320 00:16:36,179 --> 00:16:39,149 But because I I've learned how to learn. 321 00:16:39,149 --> 00:16:41,009 And the process of learning is fun. 322 00:16:41,339 --> 00:16:45,989 There's kind of a flow state in breaking down the thing I don't understand. 323 00:16:46,409 --> 00:16:49,049 And that makes it fun enough that I'll push through. 324 00:16:49,914 --> 00:16:52,284 Something that otherwise would be a complete slog. 325 00:16:52,744 --> 00:16:56,704 I think the other part too is it's one of those things where you enjoy the process, 326 00:16:56,704 --> 00:16:59,704 but you also can enjoy new processes more. 327 00:17:00,364 --> 00:17:08,074 If you have adjacent relevant experience, like playing a piano is 328 00:17:08,554 --> 00:17:11,284 not the same as playing a guitar. 329 00:17:12,184 --> 00:17:16,474 But the experience of knowing what music notes are going to come 330 00:17:16,474 --> 00:17:20,424 out in, what generally scales are and what generally chords are. 331 00:17:20,934 --> 00:17:23,364 You can transfer a lot of that knowledge, even though you don't 332 00:17:23,364 --> 00:17:24,804 have any of the mechanical skill. 333 00:17:25,284 --> 00:17:27,334 And suddenly the gap is a little bit shorter. 334 00:17:27,334 --> 00:17:32,104 And so one of the huge benefits of this, like learning as a hobby, just picking 335 00:17:32,104 --> 00:17:36,819 things up for whatever reason is that it also means I'm inadvertently shortening 336 00:17:36,819 --> 00:17:41,259 the gap on a lot of things that I want to learn, which again, I'm not good at 337 00:17:41,259 --> 00:17:43,329 anything, but I can do a lot of things. 338 00:17:43,959 --> 00:17:48,029 And it's really fun for me that if I walk into a thing you know, an 339 00:17:48,029 --> 00:17:51,929 escape room or I'm playing a new board game or, somebody who's got a 340 00:17:51,979 --> 00:17:54,279 challenging, word puzzle or whatever. 341 00:17:54,279 --> 00:17:55,299 It is a logic game. 342 00:17:55,599 --> 00:17:58,449 I've done enough things that are kind of similar to those things 343 00:17:58,449 --> 00:17:59,669 that I'm not going to be fast. 344 00:17:59,669 --> 00:18:00,899 I'm not going to set world records. 345 00:18:00,899 --> 00:18:05,179 I'm not going to be the best at it, but I can at least pick it up and Kind of do it. 346 00:18:05,229 --> 00:18:05,799 Then it's fun. 347 00:18:05,859 --> 00:18:07,409 And then you're actually playing. 348 00:18:07,409 --> 00:18:11,749 So I think there's this, sort of chain of wins, that gives you confidence and that 349 00:18:11,749 --> 00:18:13,159 makes you willing to do the next thing. 350 00:18:13,159 --> 00:18:18,649 Like every single skill you learn is somewhat transferable. 351 00:18:18,919 --> 00:18:22,459 Because as soon as you've learned a thing, there are adjacent things that 352 00:18:22,459 --> 00:18:25,999 you can now learn that would have been that much more challenging before. 353 00:18:26,469 --> 00:18:28,869 You get the confidence of having learned a thing, the more things 354 00:18:28,869 --> 00:18:31,059 you learn, how to do the less likely you are to look at something and 355 00:18:31,059 --> 00:18:32,169 go, oh, well, I can never do that. 356 00:18:32,899 --> 00:18:36,079 There's nothing that I look at and think, oh, well, I could never do that. 357 00:18:36,079 --> 00:18:37,669 There's stuff that I'm not willing to do. 358 00:18:37,789 --> 00:18:41,299 I'm not willing to get into like excellent physical condition 359 00:18:41,299 --> 00:18:42,859 to take on a lot of skillsets. 360 00:18:44,189 --> 00:18:48,059 I know that there's a very, very high probability that I will never 361 00:18:48,059 --> 00:18:51,979 dunk a basketball, you know, it's stuff like hard skills or technical 362 00:18:51,979 --> 00:18:57,399 skills or mental things like trying to solve puzzles or do technical work. 363 00:18:57,449 --> 00:18:58,439 I know when I can figure out. 364 00:18:59,244 --> 00:19:01,124 And that's not because I'm cocky. 365 00:19:01,124 --> 00:19:05,024 It's because I have a chain of wins of having figured out other things 366 00:19:05,024 --> 00:19:06,374 that are sort of in that space. 367 00:19:06,764 --> 00:19:08,744 And over the course of my career, you know, you get a 368 00:19:08,744 --> 00:19:09,794 chance to play a little bit. 369 00:19:09,824 --> 00:19:10,124 Oh, okay. 370 00:19:10,124 --> 00:19:12,164 I got to do a spreadsheet on this. 371 00:19:12,164 --> 00:19:12,374 Okay. 372 00:19:12,374 --> 00:19:12,794 I can. 373 00:19:13,044 --> 00:19:15,024 The formula and that was hard, but I got to work. 374 00:19:15,074 --> 00:19:15,914 I can make a spreadsheet. 375 00:19:16,294 --> 00:19:17,944 Then later you're in databases like, oh, great. 376 00:19:17,944 --> 00:19:19,774 Databases are kind of just complicated spreadsheets. 377 00:19:19,774 --> 00:19:20,794 I can probably figure this out. 378 00:19:21,014 --> 00:19:24,124 Then you get your working database it's a chain of wins and that gives 379 00:19:24,124 --> 00:19:27,934 you confidence and makes it a little more fun and a little less likely to 380 00:19:27,934 --> 00:19:29,314 be something that you just get stuck. 381 00:19:29,834 --> 00:19:34,014 Eddie: So I think that's really useful because if someone, doesn't really 382 00:19:34,014 --> 00:19:38,204 consider themselves to be a learner or they're intimidated by expanding or 383 00:19:38,234 --> 00:19:40,634 continuing to learn in different things. 384 00:19:41,074 --> 00:19:44,774 That means if they start with something really small and maybe something that's 385 00:19:44,774 --> 00:19:49,484 close to, things that they already know, then that's like an easy stepping stone to 386 00:19:49,484 --> 00:19:51,864 help spinning up those gears of learning. 387 00:19:53,034 --> 00:19:56,844 Jason: Yeah and maybe another way to look at it too, is that it reframes 388 00:19:56,844 --> 00:20:01,484 failure in a way that I think is for me, at least very empowering. 389 00:20:01,534 --> 00:20:05,704 I look at anything that doesn't work, not as a failure or a limitation, but as 390 00:20:05,704 --> 00:20:07,774 information on how to change it next time. 391 00:20:08,434 --> 00:20:11,344 Well, I am annoyingly optimistic people. 392 00:20:11,344 --> 00:20:16,204 Don't I think people think that I am like a character. 393 00:20:16,204 --> 00:20:16,534 Right. 394 00:20:16,534 --> 00:20:19,744 And they see me on my stream or they see me on Twitter and 395 00:20:19,744 --> 00:20:20,934 they go, nobody's that positive. 396 00:20:20,984 --> 00:20:22,294 But I really am. 397 00:20:22,294 --> 00:20:25,894 And this is like, my partner finds this infuriating because whenever 398 00:20:25,894 --> 00:20:28,384 stuff gets challenging, I'm like, okay, well, let's look at what's working. 399 00:20:28,414 --> 00:20:29,434 And then this isn't that bad. 400 00:20:29,454 --> 00:20:30,274 We can work this out. 401 00:20:30,274 --> 00:20:30,934 We can make this work. 402 00:20:30,934 --> 00:20:31,084 All right. 403 00:20:31,114 --> 00:20:32,164 Here's what we're going to do differently. 404 00:20:32,434 --> 00:20:33,374 And she's like, oh my God. 405 00:20:33,374 --> 00:20:34,634 Do you ever just get mad? 406 00:20:35,114 --> 00:20:41,189 (Laughing) and they're like I do, but when I get mad, I just get, I'm 407 00:20:41,189 --> 00:20:43,229 like, okay, how can we fix it though? 408 00:20:43,229 --> 00:20:45,149 And fixing it means doing a productive thing. 409 00:20:45,149 --> 00:20:46,949 So let's think about next steps. 410 00:20:46,949 --> 00:20:49,289 And here's what we know, and here's what we don't, how do we learn what we 411 00:20:49,289 --> 00:20:52,979 don't so that we can get to the end and it becomes this process of learning. 412 00:20:52,979 --> 00:20:55,109 And again, for me, that's, it's fun. 413 00:20:55,109 --> 00:20:56,219 It turns it into a puzzle. 414 00:20:56,519 --> 00:20:59,139 And so failure is just information. 415 00:20:59,609 --> 00:21:00,869 All failure is temporary. 416 00:21:00,869 --> 00:21:02,519 Now it's part of the learning loop. 417 00:21:02,519 --> 00:21:07,499 And so the goal is to try something and see whether it works so that you can then 418 00:21:07,499 --> 00:21:09,719 make a better informed decision next time. 419 00:21:09,989 --> 00:21:13,749 Instead of what I think a trap that a lot of people fall into as well. 420 00:21:13,959 --> 00:21:14,829 I got to learn enough. 421 00:21:14,829 --> 00:21:17,619 I got to practice enough so that when I try, I don't fail. 422 00:21:17,769 --> 00:21:19,209 Like failure is not an option. 423 00:21:19,629 --> 00:21:23,049 And I don't know, I don't, I wouldn't have gotten very much done in my 424 00:21:23,049 --> 00:21:24,519 career if I wasn't willing to screw up. 425 00:21:24,829 --> 00:21:30,159 I would say my day is any given day is me screwing up 50% of the time 426 00:21:30,219 --> 00:21:32,349 because I'm trying something and somebody's like that didn't work. 427 00:21:32,349 --> 00:21:34,329 And I'm like, okay, well, what can we do instead? 428 00:21:34,609 --> 00:21:37,879 I get so much information so fast and you get to change the 429 00:21:37,879 --> 00:21:39,139 way that you approach things. 430 00:21:39,559 --> 00:21:41,779 Instead of saying well, if I do like this, what could go wrong? 431 00:21:41,779 --> 00:21:43,759 Okay, well, here's a hypothetical thing that could go wrong. 432 00:21:43,759 --> 00:21:46,399 Let me rewrite the plan, but you never get any information. 433 00:21:46,449 --> 00:21:47,709 You never meets reality. 434 00:21:48,069 --> 00:21:50,969 So this is sort of one of the major things for me, I guess, is that 435 00:21:50,979 --> 00:21:52,899 now failure is like part of it. 436 00:21:52,929 --> 00:21:56,529 You just, you go yeah, let's go fail fast so that we can learn what to do 437 00:21:56,529 --> 00:21:57,969 differently so that we can get to the win. 438 00:21:58,839 --> 00:22:01,059 Eddie: Embrace failure as a catalyst for learning. 439 00:22:01,089 --> 00:22:01,719 I love that. 440 00:22:03,064 --> 00:22:04,784 Well, I know we're coming up on time. 441 00:22:04,844 --> 00:22:07,134 As a community, we really love to support each other. 442 00:22:07,284 --> 00:22:09,384 We love to hear what everyone's up to. 443 00:22:09,434 --> 00:22:12,784 So we'd just like to know, is there anything that we can do to support you? 444 00:22:12,784 --> 00:22:15,934 Anything that you're involved in or something you want to 445 00:22:15,934 --> 00:22:17,554 give a shout out to that? 446 00:22:17,654 --> 00:22:18,044 Jason: Yeah. 447 00:22:18,124 --> 00:22:20,284 We're doing a lot of fun stuff over at Netlify. 448 00:22:20,284 --> 00:22:25,324 If you are working in web development, we just launched, edge functions, which 449 00:22:25,324 --> 00:22:31,064 gives you the ability to transform responses right there at the edge with a 450 00:22:31,064 --> 00:22:33,404 surprisingly little amount of JavaScript. 451 00:22:33,474 --> 00:22:35,274 We've got, serverless functions and stuff. 452 00:22:35,274 --> 00:22:38,694 So if you're somebody who considers yourself to be a front-end developer, I 453 00:22:38,694 --> 00:22:42,564 think you could actually pull off what people would call full-stack with just 454 00:22:42,564 --> 00:22:43,974 the JavaScript knowledge you already have. 455 00:22:43,974 --> 00:22:46,894 If you want to go try edge functions, serverless functions. 456 00:22:46,914 --> 00:22:48,864 So I'd highly encourage people to go mess with that. 457 00:22:48,864 --> 00:22:49,674 It's a lot of fun. 458 00:22:50,074 --> 00:22:51,654 Then just come hang out with me on Learn with Jason. 459 00:22:51,764 --> 00:22:53,494 I am always playing around. 460 00:22:53,494 --> 00:22:56,164 We're always pair programming and it's a lot of fun. 461 00:22:56,164 --> 00:22:57,214 so come watch that live. 462 00:22:57,244 --> 00:22:59,844 That's on twitch jlengstorf is the username. 463 00:23:00,674 --> 00:23:01,054 Eddie: Awesome. 464 00:23:01,114 --> 00:23:01,774 That's perfect. 465 00:23:01,834 --> 00:23:03,484 Two great things to check out. 466 00:23:03,514 --> 00:23:08,254 I actually use Netlify for my website, so definitely big thumbs up on that. 467 00:23:08,304 --> 00:23:10,734 If anyone's trying to figure out what they want to do with their 468 00:23:10,734 --> 00:23:13,294 website Netlify is a great option. 469 00:23:13,294 --> 00:23:16,024 And I haven't checked out the edge functions, so I'm going to have to 470 00:23:16,024 --> 00:23:18,144 do that now, cause, that sounds fun. 471 00:23:19,164 --> 00:23:19,824 Jason: Absolutely 472 00:23:20,694 --> 00:23:21,564 Eddie: Thanks for joining. 473 00:23:22,074 --> 00:23:24,144 Really appreciate it and have a great day. 474 00:23:24,714 --> 00:23:24,954 Jason: All right. 475 00:23:24,954 --> 00:23:25,464 Thanks Eddie. 476 00:23:26,953 --> 00:23:30,193 Eddie: Thanks for joining us for Episode 1, "Play Until it 477 00:23:30,193 --> 00:23:32,333 Pays" with Jason Lengstorf. 478 00:23:32,773 --> 00:23:36,743 You can find out more about Jason, either on his website, jason.af 479 00:23:37,483 --> 00:23:40,113 or his Twitter @jlengstorf. 480 00:23:40,573 --> 00:23:44,053 You can find links to everything we talked about in this episode, 481 00:23:44,263 --> 00:23:48,313 as well as links to Jason's website and Twitter in the show notes. 482 00:23:48,793 --> 00:23:51,883 If you enjoyed this episode please consider rating and reviewing it in 483 00:23:51,883 --> 00:23:57,853 your favorite podcast directory and following us on Twitter @WebJoyFM 484 00:23:58,393 --> 00:23:59,983 Thank you and have a great day!