1 00:00:03,239 --> 00:00:07,609 Timothy: Creates arts podcast interview. 2 00:00:08,270 --> 00:00:09,450 Amy Bernstein. 3 00:00:15,659 --> 00:00:16,350 Hello friend. 4 00:00:16,380 --> 00:00:17,529 This is Timothy Kimo. 5 00:00:17,530 --> 00:00:22,389 Brian, your head instigator for create art podcast, where I bring 6 00:00:22,410 --> 00:00:25,630 my over 30 years of experience in the arts and educational world. 7 00:00:25,860 --> 00:00:34,890 Today, I get the privilege of talking with Amy Bernstein, who is a book coach, 8 00:00:34,919 --> 00:00:36,390 which I had never heard of before. 9 00:00:37,060 --> 00:00:41,849 And I met her through pod match, which is a service that allows 10 00:00:41,849 --> 00:00:43,989 guests and hosts to connect together. 11 00:00:44,489 --> 00:00:47,030 And if you are interested. 12 00:00:47,340 --> 00:00:50,590 In being part of that, you can use my affiliate link. 13 00:00:51,069 --> 00:00:52,440 That's podmatch. 14 00:00:52,480 --> 00:00:55,879 com slash create art podcast. 15 00:00:56,500 --> 00:01:01,089 And that's if you would like to, you know, be a, be a host or be 16 00:01:01,120 --> 00:01:07,980 a guest or even an agency that is looking for guests for their podcast. 17 00:01:08,905 --> 00:01:09,865 But back to Amy. 18 00:01:10,175 --> 00:01:14,705 Now, she writes stories that let readers feel while making them think. 19 00:01:15,145 --> 00:01:19,455 Now, her novels include the Patero Complex, the award winning The 20 00:01:19,475 --> 00:01:25,054 Nighthawkers, Dreams of Songtimes, and Fran, the second time around. 21 00:01:25,494 --> 00:01:26,709 Her non fiction book, The Nighthawkers. 22 00:01:26,899 --> 00:01:30,919 Wrangling the doubt monster fighting fears and finding inspiration will 23 00:01:30,919 --> 00:01:36,960 be published in the fall of 2024 about in September and pre orders 24 00:01:36,980 --> 00:01:39,189 will be going on sale very soon. 25 00:01:40,299 --> 00:01:44,470 Now, Amy is an award winning journalist, speechwriter, playwright, 26 00:01:44,509 --> 00:01:47,239 and certified nonfiction book coach. 27 00:01:47,799 --> 00:01:51,489 She also teaches workshops on various aspects of the craft of writing, and 28 00:01:51,489 --> 00:01:56,015 she loves inspiring others to unlock their inner artist and explore all All 29 00:01:56,015 --> 00:02:00,995 aspects of writing, publishing, and taking creative risks each and every day. 30 00:02:01,675 --> 00:02:05,725 Now she reached out to me through pod match, and I'm so glad that she did. 31 00:02:05,735 --> 00:02:08,715 And the way that she reached out to me is she said, Hey, Tim, I'm 32 00:02:08,715 --> 00:02:10,734 not here to, you know, sell a book. 33 00:02:10,764 --> 00:02:12,325 I'm here to help out your audience. 34 00:02:12,355 --> 00:02:13,954 I really enjoy what you're doing. 35 00:02:14,375 --> 00:02:18,405 And so that's why I thought she would be the perfect guests to 36 00:02:18,405 --> 00:02:21,725 talk to us about something that we may not have heard of before. 37 00:02:21,725 --> 00:02:23,665 I know I haven't heard of a book coach before. 38 00:02:24,140 --> 00:02:28,429 But let's get on with that conversation that I had with Amy just recently. 39 00:02:28,570 --> 00:02:29,100 All right. 40 00:02:29,100 --> 00:02:31,820 So thank you everyone for joining us here today. 41 00:02:32,209 --> 00:02:36,269 I have the privilege of having Amy on here with us. 42 00:02:36,539 --> 00:02:39,749 Famous book coach, Amy, how is it where you're at right now? 43 00:02:40,579 --> 00:02:45,910 Amy: It is an absolutely beautiful clear evening and cool and I'm watching the 44 00:02:45,939 --> 00:02:47,309 lights twinkling out over the city. 45 00:02:48,230 --> 00:02:48,840 Timothy: Excellent. 46 00:02:48,900 --> 00:02:49,540 Excellent. 47 00:02:49,670 --> 00:02:51,440 Well, let's jump right on into this. 48 00:02:51,480 --> 00:02:54,960 As I said, before we started hitting record, I've never talked to a, an 49 00:02:54,970 --> 00:02:56,730 author coach or a book coach before. 50 00:02:56,730 --> 00:03:00,939 So from the get go, let's, let's hit it hard. 51 00:03:01,020 --> 00:03:05,420 What does a author coach or a book coach bring to the game versus just 52 00:03:05,429 --> 00:03:07,940 like having an editor or a beta reader? 53 00:03:08,310 --> 00:03:08,780 Amy: Right. 54 00:03:08,790 --> 00:03:13,030 So that, that is a really good question and people are often confused about the 55 00:03:13,030 --> 00:03:16,639 difference among those kinds of folks who were there to support writers. 56 00:03:17,649 --> 00:03:23,490 A book coach is someone who is really there to help the writer, uh, with the 57 00:03:23,490 --> 00:03:29,160 totality of their journey, often from an idea through to structuring a book. 58 00:03:29,170 --> 00:03:35,035 It could be nonfiction, fiction, memoir, and Helping that person, uh, as an 59 00:03:35,035 --> 00:03:40,424 accountability partner by helping to help them, helping them meet deadlines, by 60 00:03:40,435 --> 00:03:44,534 encouraging them to really stick with a particular project, by helping them to 61 00:03:44,534 --> 00:03:49,114 problem solve in creative ways when the writer gets stuck, and many book coaches 62 00:03:49,125 --> 00:03:54,490 also help on the, The end of helping folks find an agent or identify a publisher. 63 00:03:54,890 --> 00:03:59,260 But I think the really most important thing that a book coach does is to 64 00:03:59,269 --> 00:04:05,440 be that a person who walks sort of alongside the author writing is a very, 65 00:04:05,470 --> 00:04:08,060 very difficult, lonely thing to do. 66 00:04:08,399 --> 00:04:12,570 And when you have a book coach by your side, you really get some support 67 00:04:12,770 --> 00:04:14,599 and structure and tools to help you. 68 00:04:14,600 --> 00:04:17,450 To help you really find success on your writing journey. 69 00:04:17,450 --> 00:04:20,269 So it's a, it's a very special and wonderful relationship. 70 00:04:21,420 --> 00:04:25,800 Timothy: I, I wish I would've met you about, I don't know, I started writing in 71 00:04:25,800 --> 00:04:31,830 1988, so , I wish I would've met you back then because I know for me as, because 72 00:04:31,835 --> 00:04:36,810 I'm a writer, I do mainly poetry, but for the past couple of years I've been 73 00:04:36,810 --> 00:04:38,700 doing the national novel Writing Month. 74 00:04:39,270 --> 00:04:39,770 Amy: Sure. 75 00:04:39,830 --> 00:04:40,190 Mm hmm. 76 00:04:40,730 --> 00:04:43,970 Timothy: I have three unfinished novels, as I'm sure everybody does. 77 00:04:44,400 --> 00:04:46,870 Amy: Well, and you know, and Tim, that's such a typical thing. 78 00:04:46,870 --> 00:04:51,470 And so very often someone in your position will, will start a relationship 79 00:04:51,480 --> 00:04:54,799 with a book coach and say, Hey, look, can you read 50 pages of this for me 80 00:04:54,799 --> 00:04:56,639 or, or read this manuscript for me? 81 00:04:56,640 --> 00:04:57,004 Um. 82 00:04:57,005 --> 00:04:59,205 You know, I just can't figure out where to go from here. 83 00:04:59,205 --> 00:05:00,505 I just can't finish the thing. 84 00:05:00,505 --> 00:05:01,695 I can't see my way through. 85 00:05:01,955 --> 00:05:08,085 And a book coach can really help you kind of excavate what's going on in that book 86 00:05:08,085 --> 00:05:11,914 or in that project and whether you really can develop that vision to finish it. 87 00:05:12,165 --> 00:05:16,650 The other thing I wanted to add about this is, you know, Many editors 88 00:05:16,650 --> 00:05:19,580 work primarily with text, right? 89 00:05:19,580 --> 00:05:21,510 They're really concerned with what's on the page. 90 00:05:22,059 --> 00:05:26,049 Many book coaches do work with text, but a book po book coach, first and 91 00:05:26,049 --> 00:05:28,159 foremost, is working with the writer. 92 00:05:28,289 --> 00:05:30,409 They're working holistically with that person. 93 00:05:30,669 --> 00:05:33,639 And we often joke in the book coaching community that we sometimes we're 94 00:05:33,639 --> 00:05:35,439 doing a little therapy there as well. 95 00:05:35,749 --> 00:05:38,400 And, you know, it's all sort of, it's all part of the job when, when 96 00:05:38,400 --> 00:05:41,800 the writer gets distur discouraged and they lack confidence that book 97 00:05:41,810 --> 00:05:44,800 coach is there to sort of help them see, see the path forward. 98 00:05:45,065 --> 00:05:48,485 Timothy: That leads right on into, you know, what type of training 99 00:05:48,725 --> 00:05:53,385 should, as an author for myself, what kind of training should I be 100 00:05:53,385 --> 00:05:54,945 looking for in a good book coach? 101 00:05:55,545 --> 00:05:58,905 Amy: Oh, that is a wonderful question because from the author's perspective, 102 00:05:59,045 --> 00:06:00,615 what do you look for in a book coach? 103 00:06:00,955 --> 00:06:04,135 Well, I think first and foremost, you want to find someone that you feel 104 00:06:04,135 --> 00:06:07,555 really comfortable with and you can develop a trusting relationship with. 105 00:06:07,775 --> 00:06:11,594 Trust is so key to this relationship because writing is a sensitive. 106 00:06:11,870 --> 00:06:12,240 business. 107 00:06:12,240 --> 00:06:15,420 We're sensitive about our work and you want to know that you're 108 00:06:15,420 --> 00:06:18,340 working with someone who's going to respect and value what you're doing. 109 00:06:18,810 --> 00:06:21,620 You want someone who's a really good listener, but 110 00:06:21,620 --> 00:06:23,310 coaches do have to listen well. 111 00:06:23,680 --> 00:06:26,519 And you want someone who's going to be empathetic, meet you where 112 00:06:26,519 --> 00:06:32,249 you are as a writer and really help you to realize your vision and 113 00:06:32,259 --> 00:06:33,729 be able to share in that vision. 114 00:06:34,039 --> 00:06:37,389 So there's a lot of careful listening and you of course want 115 00:06:37,439 --> 00:06:38,969 a book coach who's going to. 116 00:06:39,380 --> 00:06:42,760 Really respect and value and pay close attention to, to your work. 117 00:06:43,060 --> 00:06:46,980 Timothy: As far as a professional book coach, are there any 118 00:06:47,020 --> 00:06:50,659 kind of certifications that I should be looking out for? 119 00:06:50,659 --> 00:06:53,489 Like, you know, I would, if I'm looking for a tax attorney, I'm looking for 120 00:06:53,489 --> 00:06:55,559 a CPA or certified financial planner. 121 00:06:56,240 --> 00:06:59,060 Amy: I could have planted that question with you, but I didn't. 122 00:06:59,060 --> 00:07:00,060 It's amazing. 123 00:07:00,380 --> 00:07:04,780 I am, I am a certified book coach through a marvelous program 124 00:07:05,000 --> 00:07:07,000 called Author Accelerator. 125 00:07:07,805 --> 00:07:11,615 And Author Accelerator has, at this point, trained roughly, or maybe just 126 00:07:11,625 --> 00:07:16,955 over, 200 book coach, book coaches in fiction, memoir, and non fiction. 127 00:07:17,405 --> 00:07:22,624 And it is a very rigorous program for people who love to read, who love 128 00:07:22,624 --> 00:07:24,474 books, who love the writing community. 129 00:07:24,745 --> 00:07:29,965 And we are, we get a tremendous foundation with very specific kinds of 130 00:07:29,965 --> 00:07:31,914 tools that we can use with our authors. 131 00:07:32,315 --> 00:07:35,315 And we really are well trained in really best. 132 00:07:35,575 --> 00:07:36,984 Best coaching practices. 133 00:07:37,294 --> 00:07:40,094 And we work ourselves with a community of coaches who are 134 00:07:40,094 --> 00:07:41,505 always keeping us on our toes. 135 00:07:41,815 --> 00:07:43,175 And so it's a marvelous way. 136 00:07:43,175 --> 00:07:46,525 If someone loves to read books and is looking to potentially make 137 00:07:46,525 --> 00:07:50,354 this a side gig or a career, I can certainly recommend this path. 138 00:07:50,865 --> 00:07:53,755 Timothy: Well, I'm definitely going to talk to my wife about that. 139 00:07:53,755 --> 00:07:56,695 Cause she is a huge, a voracious book reader. 140 00:07:56,695 --> 00:07:59,165 As you can see behind me, I've got a bookshelf there. 141 00:07:59,665 --> 00:08:01,915 She's got about 20 of those bookshelves. 142 00:08:02,075 --> 00:08:05,644 So, and, and she encourages me every day. 143 00:08:05,644 --> 00:08:10,955 So that's probably why we're married kind of stepping a little 144 00:08:10,955 --> 00:08:13,675 outside of book coaching here. 145 00:08:13,690 --> 00:08:16,690 I want to talk for a second about imposter syndrome. 146 00:08:16,690 --> 00:08:19,680 That's something we talk a lot about here at create our podcast. 147 00:08:20,180 --> 00:08:23,049 I'm always telling people to, you know, tame that inner critic. 148 00:08:23,049 --> 00:08:26,979 I think having a critic inside your head is a good thing as long as it 149 00:08:26,989 --> 00:08:32,019 doesn't stop you from doing what you need to do, doing the actual work. 150 00:08:32,519 --> 00:08:36,470 But for you in, in your personal writing or when you're coaching 151 00:08:36,470 --> 00:08:40,330 somebody, how do you coach somebody to deal with that inner critic? 152 00:08:41,260 --> 00:08:41,809 Amy: Yes. 153 00:08:41,870 --> 00:08:45,839 And that is truly one of the things that everyone in every creative 154 00:08:45,839 --> 00:08:47,710 field wrestles with at some point. 155 00:08:48,680 --> 00:08:51,649 Let me just stop and say that I draw a distinction between 156 00:08:51,649 --> 00:08:54,099 imposter syndrome and self doubt. 157 00:08:54,780 --> 00:08:58,680 For me, imposter syndrome is often what arises when you're someone 158 00:08:58,680 --> 00:09:00,770 who has had some, some success. 159 00:09:01,209 --> 00:09:05,109 You've been viewed by the world as someone who's made a mark or been successful. 160 00:09:05,520 --> 00:09:09,830 And then you take a look at that, that successful version of you and you say, 161 00:09:10,329 --> 00:09:12,640 Oh my gosh, this, this can't be me. 162 00:09:12,719 --> 00:09:15,400 This, they're, they're, they're complimenting the wrong person here. 163 00:09:15,420 --> 00:09:18,339 I don't deserve this money or these accolades or these awards. 164 00:09:18,629 --> 00:09:21,829 This isn't that I, I'm not worthy. 165 00:09:21,839 --> 00:09:22,169 Right? 166 00:09:22,439 --> 00:09:25,709 So imposter syndrome is almost where you've kind of climbed the mountain 167 00:09:25,709 --> 00:09:28,609 or you're, you're well on your way up and then you kind of panic. 168 00:09:28,680 --> 00:09:32,520 It's like, no, no, no, no, you all made a mistake now. 169 00:09:33,435 --> 00:09:38,444 Whereas, something like self doubt, sort of deep inner self doubt that can 170 00:09:38,444 --> 00:09:42,444 keep us awake at night, that can create, you know, anxiety and panic attacks, 171 00:09:42,444 --> 00:09:47,114 that can really keep us from doing things we otherwise really want to do. 172 00:09:47,584 --> 00:09:51,324 That really comes from, you know, a place, a couple different places. 173 00:09:51,324 --> 00:09:54,055 One is, you know, a place of fear and vulnerability. 174 00:09:54,344 --> 00:09:56,064 We, we, we are truly. 175 00:09:56,845 --> 00:10:00,025 We truly care what other people think about us, and if we put up, 176 00:10:00,064 --> 00:10:04,365 say, some piece of, of art or, or some creative endeavor out in the 177 00:10:04,365 --> 00:10:06,265 world, people are going to judge it. 178 00:10:06,334 --> 00:10:07,845 And what if they don't like it? 179 00:10:07,885 --> 00:10:09,045 That means they don't like us. 180 00:10:09,095 --> 00:10:10,095 It means we're not good. 181 00:10:10,105 --> 00:10:11,185 It means we're not good enough. 182 00:10:11,185 --> 00:10:13,365 And so you can go into this deep spiral. 183 00:10:13,900 --> 00:10:17,979 And for me, I think part of what this is all tied into, particularly in the 184 00:10:17,979 --> 00:10:23,959 United States, is a culture that really celebrates certain ways of succeeding. 185 00:10:24,290 --> 00:10:28,729 And it doesn't really kind of let you experiment and fail too much. 186 00:10:28,990 --> 00:10:32,770 And when, as creative people, whether we're writing, painting, making 187 00:10:32,770 --> 00:10:37,564 textiles, baking, or even starting a new company, failure kind of is. 188 00:10:37,744 --> 00:10:42,645 Part of the bargain and we need to be, we need to allow ourselves to fail 189 00:10:42,645 --> 00:10:45,485 because that's one of the ways that we, you know, also address our doubts. 190 00:10:46,015 --> 00:10:51,135 Timothy: Something I've always wondered is because I've worked with an editor 191 00:10:51,144 --> 00:10:53,594 before, it was a great experience. 192 00:10:54,325 --> 00:10:59,305 How do writers or how can writers balance the constructive criticism 193 00:10:59,314 --> 00:11:03,725 that you're giving them, but yet it's still their voice? 194 00:11:03,735 --> 00:11:04,505 You know, how do we. 195 00:11:04,520 --> 00:11:05,520 Balance that 196 00:11:06,360 --> 00:11:09,640 Amy: that is that is really a good question, a really good question. 197 00:11:09,660 --> 00:11:14,739 And, you know, I've had experiences with editors who didn't do a very 198 00:11:14,739 --> 00:11:19,640 good job of that on my work, which is to say I felt sort of put down 199 00:11:19,680 --> 00:11:24,179 and made to feel dumb, which is not a constructive way to work with a writer. 200 00:11:24,459 --> 00:11:28,475 So, A really great way to approach a writer as a book coach or as an 201 00:11:28,475 --> 00:11:31,855 editor, let's say, so whether you're working holistically with the person 202 00:11:31,865 --> 00:11:37,615 or primarily with the text, is to raise questions, is to ask the author about 203 00:11:37,645 --> 00:11:43,184 intentions, ask, share perspective as a reader of their material of, 204 00:11:43,184 --> 00:11:44,915 gee, here's how this made me feel. 205 00:11:44,945 --> 00:11:46,315 Is this what you intended? 206 00:11:46,795 --> 00:11:49,685 Or, you know, and asking questions like, I wonder whether, you know, 207 00:11:49,685 --> 00:11:54,645 did you think about whether this character is also X or Y or G, I'm 208 00:11:54,645 --> 00:11:59,404 curious as to why your protagonist did this thing at this time in the story. 209 00:11:59,615 --> 00:12:03,304 So it's a lot about questioning and gentle and sensitive probing. 210 00:12:03,704 --> 00:12:06,445 It's very much about suspending judgment. 211 00:12:06,675 --> 00:12:08,314 We are not here to judge. 212 00:12:08,605 --> 00:12:10,005 We're here to. 213 00:12:10,624 --> 00:12:14,294 Prod and prompt and get that writer to think as deeply as 214 00:12:14,294 --> 00:12:15,824 possible about their own work. 215 00:12:16,124 --> 00:12:19,794 So the more that we, whether we're book coaches or, or editors, the 216 00:12:19,794 --> 00:12:23,665 more that we can bring that respect to, to the writer and the writer's 217 00:12:23,665 --> 00:12:25,734 intentions, the more we can really. 218 00:12:26,210 --> 00:12:30,460 Build on trust with them and, and help them when they get stuck or when they 219 00:12:30,460 --> 00:12:34,230 may not be doing something as effectively in their work as they might, you've 220 00:12:34,230 --> 00:12:38,020 got that, you're in that position where you're coming from a place of 221 00:12:38,020 --> 00:12:42,000 sort of respecting their integrity and helping them to, to move forward as 222 00:12:42,000 --> 00:12:45,750 opposed to being critical and judgmental and, and making snap judgments. 223 00:12:45,979 --> 00:12:46,739 Timothy: Absolutely. 224 00:12:47,170 --> 00:12:53,315 Yeah, I, I, I was in a, uh, Writer's workshop little thing back when I lived 225 00:12:53,315 --> 00:13:01,085 in Chicago and it just seemed like we had an English professor there and he was all 226 00:13:01,085 --> 00:13:06,734 about just tearing us apart and I, you know, that's why I stayed away from an 227 00:13:06,734 --> 00:13:11,944 editor for decades and that, that really turned me off to it for a long time. 228 00:13:11,944 --> 00:13:14,571 But I, I'm loving your approach to this. 229 00:13:14,571 --> 00:13:16,241 I'm, you know, it's, well, 230 00:13:16,241 --> 00:13:19,034 Amy: you know, there's, there's this famous thing called the feedback sandwich. 231 00:13:19,044 --> 00:13:19,064 Yeah. 232 00:13:19,065 --> 00:13:19,167 Yeah. 233 00:13:19,167 --> 00:13:19,269 Yeah. 234 00:13:19,420 --> 00:13:23,460 And so the feedback sandwich is say something really positive about 235 00:13:23,460 --> 00:13:28,119 the author's work, then offer a constructive criticism, and then 236 00:13:28,159 --> 00:13:29,729 end again on a positive note. 237 00:13:29,779 --> 00:13:31,109 And so that's the sandwich. 238 00:13:31,479 --> 00:13:35,579 And, you know, we, we're not going to write our best if we feel attacked. 239 00:13:35,630 --> 00:13:37,869 We're just, we're not going to do anything our best if we feel attacked. 240 00:13:37,869 --> 00:13:41,140 It's not just writing, but writing is a particularly vulnerable endeavor. 241 00:13:41,580 --> 00:13:47,045 And, you know, As a book coach, I'm always looking to support and encourage 242 00:13:47,075 --> 00:13:48,995 my writers often in their darkest hours. 243 00:13:48,995 --> 00:13:50,295 And they do have dark hours. 244 00:13:50,575 --> 00:13:54,345 Remind them why they're doing this work and why they're so passionate about it. 245 00:13:54,725 --> 00:13:58,304 And the other thing I just want to add quickly about this and book coaching 246 00:13:58,314 --> 00:14:02,185 is at the same time, you want to be a truth teller to that writer. 247 00:14:03,325 --> 00:14:07,615 But in the most positive and constructive way that you can, where you're really 248 00:14:07,615 --> 00:14:11,025 seeing, you're sharing with them insights about perhaps what's not 249 00:14:11,025 --> 00:14:14,965 working, because you know they have the capacity to, to, to revise something 250 00:14:14,995 --> 00:14:16,495 and find the way that does work. 251 00:14:16,834 --> 00:14:18,574 So it's that combination of things. 252 00:14:18,879 --> 00:14:23,819 Timothy: After my years and years of writing, I have really and doing 253 00:14:23,849 --> 00:14:28,399 podcasting, we're always trying to find that target audience for our 254 00:14:28,399 --> 00:14:33,869 readership, you know, and finding that and defining that and especially new 255 00:14:33,869 --> 00:14:39,040 authors, because, you know, I know my poetry books are not for everybody. 256 00:14:39,335 --> 00:14:44,045 I, I know that I know who my audience is, but how do you help that author 257 00:14:44,545 --> 00:14:47,185 kind of find that target audience? 258 00:14:47,234 --> 00:14:50,885 Obviously we want to make, you know, millions and millions of dollars. 259 00:14:51,064 --> 00:14:51,494 Yeah. 260 00:14:51,915 --> 00:14:53,914 Be Joe Rogan on the podcast world. 261 00:14:54,364 --> 00:14:56,744 But how do we, you know, help. 262 00:14:56,970 --> 00:15:01,349 Define that target audience and for a wide audience that can 263 00:15:01,349 --> 00:15:03,280 actually support us as writers, 264 00:15:03,730 --> 00:15:04,150 Amy: right? 265 00:15:04,460 --> 00:15:06,230 Again, such a key question. 266 00:15:06,500 --> 00:15:09,180 One of the things that we always start with early in a relationship 267 00:15:09,180 --> 00:15:12,240 when we're working with an author is the the author's why? 268 00:15:12,860 --> 00:15:15,164 Why are you writing this? 269 00:15:15,665 --> 00:15:17,985 Why are you writing this now? 270 00:15:18,685 --> 00:15:20,235 And who needs to read it? 271 00:15:20,265 --> 00:15:22,175 Who needs to hear what you're writing about? 272 00:15:22,555 --> 00:15:25,505 I coach a lot of non fiction, and this is, it's very true 273 00:15:25,505 --> 00:15:27,275 in fiction as well, for sure. 274 00:15:27,575 --> 00:15:30,185 But in non fiction, it's also essential. 275 00:15:30,405 --> 00:15:31,825 You know, why this message? 276 00:15:32,000 --> 00:15:32,760 Why now? 277 00:15:32,780 --> 00:15:33,780 And why you? 278 00:15:33,790 --> 00:15:35,520 Why are you the person to write it? 279 00:15:35,859 --> 00:15:38,849 And I think you could, you could certainly apply this in the podcast world. 280 00:15:38,849 --> 00:15:42,300 You know, what are you passionate about discussing in your podcast? 281 00:15:42,639 --> 00:15:44,619 Who really needs to hear that message? 282 00:15:44,939 --> 00:15:48,509 And in the nonfiction world, I talk, we talk a lot about making sure we 283 00:15:48,509 --> 00:15:52,189 understand the reader's pain points, because a nonfiction book will help 284 00:15:52,189 --> 00:15:53,939 a reader to generalize for a moment. 285 00:15:54,250 --> 00:15:58,530 to address a point of pain or a need that they have. 286 00:15:58,530 --> 00:16:01,700 And you're helping them to sort of problem solve or find answers, right? 287 00:16:02,050 --> 00:16:06,279 In fiction, we're looking to scratch that itch of someone who just absolutely 288 00:16:06,310 --> 00:16:10,829 loves, you know, to, to read, to watch the detect, read how the detective is 289 00:16:10,829 --> 00:16:15,790 going to solve, solve the crime, or they love romance and they just can't wait 290 00:16:15,790 --> 00:16:19,089 to see how the lovers are pulled apart and then find each other in the end. 291 00:16:19,280 --> 00:16:22,730 And so you do have to be really clear about what your why is for writing it. 292 00:16:23,860 --> 00:16:26,550 And be clear about who your reader really is. 293 00:16:26,840 --> 00:16:30,050 And a lot of that also in the book world, you have to do a lot of research. 294 00:16:30,050 --> 00:16:32,180 You have to read a lot in your genre, a lot. 295 00:16:32,620 --> 00:16:35,140 And you have to, you should be going, every writer should be going to the 296 00:16:35,140 --> 00:16:39,350 bookstore and staring at the shelves and figuring out what is shelved where. 297 00:16:39,825 --> 00:16:43,385 You know, what, what books are together and getting a sense of 298 00:16:43,405 --> 00:16:44,665 what readers are looking for. 299 00:16:45,195 --> 00:16:49,944 Timothy: So we've kind of hit that first point of, you know, before we even write 300 00:16:49,945 --> 00:16:54,085 that book, we want to know why we're doing it, what's our target audience 301 00:16:54,885 --> 00:16:56,665 as we're going through that book. 302 00:16:56,865 --> 00:17:01,025 And there's a lot of people that have a lot of misconceptions about, you know, 303 00:17:01,025 --> 00:17:03,025 the life of being a writer and all that. 304 00:17:03,525 --> 00:17:06,325 Can you talk about some of the misconceptions about 305 00:17:06,325 --> 00:17:07,834 the writing process that. 306 00:17:08,385 --> 00:17:11,365 that, that people run into and how do you help the writer 307 00:17:11,365 --> 00:17:13,045 address those misconceptions? 308 00:17:14,345 --> 00:17:18,645 Amy: Well, I think it's funny because you could say that if you've met 309 00:17:18,655 --> 00:17:20,585 one writer, you've met one writer. 310 00:17:20,905 --> 00:17:23,754 Writers work so differently from one another. 311 00:17:24,125 --> 00:17:28,834 And I just watched something recently I know it was the, the film American 312 00:17:28,834 --> 00:17:31,554 fiction, which I, I recommend so strongly. 313 00:17:31,555 --> 00:17:31,804 Is it? 314 00:17:31,894 --> 00:17:36,324 Absolutely brilliant movie, but I I was yelling and screaming a bit 315 00:17:36,324 --> 00:17:39,024 when I came out of the theater not because I didn't like it I loved it. 316 00:17:39,304 --> 00:17:41,824 But because the main character is an author and he writes a 317 00:17:41,824 --> 00:17:43,404 bestseller in like three seconds. 318 00:17:44,124 --> 00:17:48,684 So He's on screen thinking about his story and then and just like the next thing 319 00:17:48,685 --> 00:17:54,055 there it is So I think a misconception is that Books happen quickly. 320 00:17:54,145 --> 00:17:57,955 They don't, by and large, good books do not happen quickly. 321 00:17:58,105 --> 00:18:00,095 They take many months, often years. 322 00:18:00,415 --> 00:18:01,815 It's a really slow process. 323 00:18:02,095 --> 00:18:05,594 And another huge misconception is that by the time you're reading a 324 00:18:05,594 --> 00:18:10,084 book that, that you say purchased, you think you're reading exactly 325 00:18:10,104 --> 00:18:11,604 what came out of the writer's head. 326 00:18:11,905 --> 00:18:16,524 And writers go through so many drafts and revisions, and then editors ask 327 00:18:16,524 --> 00:18:18,804 for more changes and more changes. 328 00:18:18,854 --> 00:18:24,100 So you are rarely reading The words on the page, the way they came out 329 00:18:24,100 --> 00:18:28,470 of the author's head, you're reading a much later version of that, a 330 00:18:28,470 --> 00:18:30,900 much more realized version of that. 331 00:18:30,940 --> 00:18:32,180 And so that is a big misconception. 332 00:18:32,580 --> 00:18:35,949 People write fast, the book, they just dash it off and this is, they 333 00:18:35,950 --> 00:18:37,459 just write it once and it's done. 334 00:18:37,470 --> 00:18:38,429 That is not true. 335 00:18:40,770 --> 00:18:42,899 Timothy: Totally knocked out my misconceptions. 336 00:18:42,899 --> 00:18:43,290 Absolutely. 337 00:18:45,430 --> 00:18:48,770 Well, and, and cause as I said earlier, I take part in the 338 00:18:48,780 --> 00:18:50,210 National Novel Writing Month. 339 00:18:50,230 --> 00:18:50,920 Yes. 340 00:18:50,969 --> 00:19:00,740 Thousand words in 30 days and even doing that, that those days go 341 00:19:00,930 --> 00:19:04,834 slow because you're trying to hit a word count, which, you know, I 342 00:19:04,834 --> 00:19:08,514 don't recommend it for everybody, but I think it's a good practice 343 00:19:09,014 --> 00:19:11,144 to flex those muscles and all that. 344 00:19:11,205 --> 00:19:18,205 Amy: I think that on the one hand, writing to a word count is very good for training 345 00:19:18,205 --> 00:19:20,864 yourself to develop a writing habit. 346 00:19:21,685 --> 00:19:28,405 It is not good for training yourself to write quality prose. 347 00:19:29,895 --> 00:19:32,475 Those things don't usually go together. 348 00:19:33,955 --> 00:19:34,825 I understand. 349 00:19:34,835 --> 00:19:39,004 I mean, you know, NaNoWriMo is, is, is a, is a great exercise for getting 350 00:19:39,004 --> 00:19:41,615 people to tell themselves, I am a writer. 351 00:19:41,635 --> 00:19:43,205 I'm sitting every day and I'm writing. 352 00:19:43,254 --> 00:19:44,004 I am a writer. 353 00:19:44,215 --> 00:19:45,475 And that's really powerful. 354 00:19:45,494 --> 00:19:48,545 That's emotionally and psychologically powerful, but that 355 00:19:48,545 --> 00:19:50,105 doesn't make you a good writer. 356 00:19:50,610 --> 00:19:51,590 That comes later. 357 00:19:53,480 --> 00:19:55,270 Timothy: And let's talk about that later part. 358 00:19:55,270 --> 00:19:56,900 Thank you for leading me into that. 359 00:19:57,409 --> 00:20:01,840 I was just interviewing a, another author, uh, a couple of days ago. 360 00:20:01,899 --> 00:20:04,600 And I asked him, I said, what's, you know, the worst thing about 361 00:20:04,600 --> 00:20:07,080 writing and he said, marketing. 362 00:20:08,079 --> 00:20:12,090 And so this kind of ties in with, you know, what do you need to do first? 363 00:20:12,100 --> 00:20:16,030 Think about the audience, you know, and, and think about who this book is for and 364 00:20:16,070 --> 00:20:21,259 what your why is, but then marketing, how do we, how do we survive marketing? 365 00:20:21,570 --> 00:20:28,919 Amy: This has become the bane of every author's existence, including high end 366 00:20:28,919 --> 00:20:33,759 authors who have big publishing deals with big pub, big five publishers, even 367 00:20:33,759 --> 00:20:39,875 in this, even those elite authors are being asked to To do marketing activities, 368 00:20:41,265 --> 00:20:46,595 most of us who are below that tippy part of the pyramid, even if we're published 369 00:20:46,595 --> 00:20:49,985 by a traditional publisher, which is to say, just to make the distinction, 370 00:20:50,264 --> 00:20:54,544 if you self publish, you're completely in control of the process and you do 371 00:20:54,545 --> 00:20:57,535 everything you get, you get the book between the covers, you get the cover 372 00:20:57,535 --> 00:21:01,895 design, you get your ISBN number, you get the thing manufactured somehow, 373 00:21:02,225 --> 00:21:03,575 you decide where to distribute it. 374 00:21:03,595 --> 00:21:04,765 You're in charge of everything, right? 375 00:21:04,765 --> 00:21:05,755 Including the marketing. 376 00:21:05,945 --> 00:21:07,414 If you're traditionally published. 377 00:21:07,845 --> 00:21:12,855 A company is taking on a lot of those tasks for you at, with or without giving 378 00:21:12,855 --> 00:21:16,955 you an advance as an author, and you still have to do a lot of marketing. 379 00:21:17,924 --> 00:21:20,679 It's Incredibly difficult. 380 00:21:21,030 --> 00:21:23,550 It's very painful for many authors to do. 381 00:21:23,630 --> 00:21:24,990 It's overwhelming. 382 00:21:25,270 --> 00:21:26,470 It's discouraging. 383 00:21:26,790 --> 00:21:30,160 I've had countless conversations about this with people, and this 384 00:21:30,160 --> 00:21:31,750 is how I'm going to boil it down. 385 00:21:32,739 --> 00:21:37,139 At the end of the day, represent yourself. 386 00:21:37,430 --> 00:21:42,350 And your book only in the ways that give you some sense of joy 387 00:21:42,370 --> 00:21:44,200 and satisfaction and competence. 388 00:21:45,040 --> 00:21:47,820 If you're not the kind of person who's ever going to go 389 00:21:47,820 --> 00:21:49,680 on Tik Tok, don't go on Tik Tok. 390 00:21:50,630 --> 00:21:55,050 If you're not the kind of, if you're the kind of person who has a lot of trouble 391 00:21:55,069 --> 00:21:59,930 with speaking, speaking in, in, in public or like giving a reading in a bookstore, 392 00:21:59,930 --> 00:22:01,980 maybe that's incredibly difficult for you. 393 00:22:02,600 --> 00:22:03,860 You don't have to do that. 394 00:22:04,475 --> 00:22:08,135 So you really, as an author, you really need to find what fits 395 00:22:08,135 --> 00:22:10,245 you, what fits your personality. 396 00:22:10,495 --> 00:22:14,274 Because if you do the things you're comfortable with and that give you some 397 00:22:14,274 --> 00:22:18,245 measure of joy, you'll be representing yourself in your book nicely. 398 00:22:18,664 --> 00:22:22,435 If you feel somehow compelled because the pressure is out there that 399 00:22:22,435 --> 00:22:26,284 you're supposed to do everything, find umpteen bookstores that you 400 00:22:26,284 --> 00:22:27,764 get your somehow get yourself to do. 401 00:22:27,764 --> 00:22:32,194 And this, that's hard enough that you're supposed to be on Tik Tok and Instagram. 402 00:22:32,505 --> 00:22:37,375 And Facebook and LinkedIn and threads and Oh, by the way, have 403 00:22:37,375 --> 00:22:38,555 you done your blog this week? 404 00:22:38,565 --> 00:22:39,725 And where's your newsletter? 405 00:22:40,504 --> 00:22:42,485 This is driving authors crazy. 406 00:22:42,845 --> 00:22:48,534 So you really have to curate, find the thing that you like to do and do that. 407 00:22:48,575 --> 00:22:50,174 And if it's 1 thing, do 1 thing. 408 00:22:50,184 --> 00:22:51,599 Maybe you'll add another thing later. 409 00:22:51,940 --> 00:22:54,120 I think that's the only way to do this sanely. 410 00:22:54,710 --> 00:22:55,550 Timothy: Amen to that. 411 00:22:55,580 --> 00:23:00,540 You know, that goes for podcasting, that goes for painting, dance, all 412 00:23:00,540 --> 00:23:05,570 of that because you're not going to be everything to everybody because 413 00:23:05,570 --> 00:23:07,989 there's nothing to everybody. 414 00:23:08,265 --> 00:23:08,465 Right. 415 00:23:08,675 --> 00:23:09,405 Nothing to nobody. 416 00:23:09,485 --> 00:23:13,785 So I know that's probably, probably not proper grammar, but that's okay. 417 00:23:13,785 --> 00:23:14,505 It's a podcast. 418 00:23:15,205 --> 00:23:15,445 Amy: Right. 419 00:23:15,495 --> 00:23:16,945 And don't make yourself miserable. 420 00:23:16,945 --> 00:23:17,625 You wrote a book. 421 00:23:17,635 --> 00:23:18,685 How wonderful is that? 422 00:23:18,815 --> 00:23:19,695 Your book is published. 423 00:23:19,724 --> 00:23:20,694 That's amazing. 424 00:23:20,995 --> 00:23:24,384 Now celebrate that in ways that you want to celebrate and don't 425 00:23:24,395 --> 00:23:27,855 let that, that, that sort of marketing monster come crashing 426 00:23:27,855 --> 00:23:29,905 down on you and, and spoil the fun. 427 00:23:29,905 --> 00:23:30,865 Timothy: Exactly. 428 00:23:30,865 --> 00:23:30,875 Exactly. 429 00:23:30,875 --> 00:23:30,884 Exactly. 430 00:23:31,195 --> 00:23:33,125 Yeah, because it's supposed to be fun. 431 00:23:33,235 --> 00:23:35,075 It's supposed to be something enjoyable that we do. 432 00:23:35,175 --> 00:23:35,725 Amy: Exactly. 433 00:23:35,725 --> 00:23:36,345 And here's the thing. 434 00:23:36,385 --> 00:23:37,055 And here's the thing. 435 00:23:37,075 --> 00:23:39,155 People think that, Oh, I'm never going to sell any books. 436 00:23:39,155 --> 00:23:39,884 I've got a market, market, market. 437 00:23:39,885 --> 00:23:40,585 I'm never going to sell any books. 438 00:23:40,875 --> 00:23:43,115 You're not in control of how many books you sell anyway. 439 00:23:43,365 --> 00:23:45,194 This is not in our control as authors. 440 00:23:45,445 --> 00:23:49,414 You've got to let go of this notion that if you spend 15 hours a week 441 00:23:49,415 --> 00:23:51,915 doing something that's called marketing, you're going to sell books. 442 00:23:52,305 --> 00:23:54,235 There's no direct correlation here. 443 00:23:54,235 --> 00:23:55,365 There are no promises. 444 00:23:55,735 --> 00:23:57,455 So therefore I wouldn't sweat that. 445 00:23:58,715 --> 00:24:02,385 It's going to be what it's going to be due to a broad number of factors. 446 00:24:02,385 --> 00:24:04,205 Some in your control, many not in your control. 447 00:24:04,545 --> 00:24:07,205 Timothy: Something you just said about newsletters. 448 00:24:07,685 --> 00:24:09,504 I've just with create our podcast. 449 00:24:09,504 --> 00:24:13,364 I have a newsletter that I do once a month and I give little ideas of what 450 00:24:13,364 --> 00:24:14,644 people can do throughout the month. 451 00:24:15,074 --> 00:24:18,144 And I understand that you have a newsletter on Substack. 452 00:24:18,445 --> 00:24:19,614 Can you talk about that? 453 00:24:19,624 --> 00:24:20,754 And, and. 454 00:24:21,480 --> 00:24:26,000 Is having a newsletter, a marketing strategy, if people enjoy 455 00:24:26,020 --> 00:24:27,820 doing that, that is successful. 456 00:24:27,940 --> 00:24:31,090 Amy: It is a marketing strategy if you enjoy doing, cause I'm getting back to 457 00:24:31,090 --> 00:24:32,629 my point, if you enjoy doing it right. 458 00:24:32,630 --> 00:24:34,710 Some people it's, it's just agony for them. 459 00:24:35,050 --> 00:24:36,580 So let me put this in context. 460 00:24:36,720 --> 00:24:40,240 There's many different ways for an author to do a blog, which would just 461 00:24:40,240 --> 00:24:44,500 be a shorter post or a newsletter, which you can, you can put out in sort 462 00:24:44,500 --> 00:24:47,470 of an email system or, or on subsec. 463 00:24:48,340 --> 00:24:49,170 You can do it. 464 00:24:50,310 --> 00:24:55,050 To talk about your, your, your life as an author to reflect on some people's 465 00:24:55,060 --> 00:24:59,129 newsletters are going to reflect on only their identity as an author, 466 00:24:59,129 --> 00:25:01,629 and they're going to talk about the characters in the books or in the stories. 467 00:25:01,869 --> 00:25:04,030 If they've authored a series, they're going to talk about 468 00:25:04,370 --> 00:25:05,770 things related to all of that. 469 00:25:06,029 --> 00:25:08,354 And their fans are going to be hungry for, for, for that. 470 00:25:08,445 --> 00:25:09,675 book news from that author. 471 00:25:09,685 --> 00:25:11,095 They want to know about the characters. 472 00:25:11,095 --> 00:25:12,355 They want to hear about the process. 473 00:25:12,535 --> 00:25:15,645 How did you, how did you decide that, you know, this was going to happen to her? 474 00:25:15,645 --> 00:25:19,005 They want that kind of an inside, inside the writer's mind. 475 00:25:19,284 --> 00:25:23,334 That's one marvelous type of newsletter that many authors put 476 00:25:23,335 --> 00:25:24,634 out and they're very good at it. 477 00:25:25,475 --> 00:25:27,565 I'm going to just, I just do something very different. 478 00:25:28,105 --> 00:25:34,084 I'm putting out a newsletter on Substack called Doubt Monster, which for me is much 479 00:25:34,084 --> 00:25:39,614 more platform and brand building in a, in a more sort of global long term sense. 480 00:25:40,015 --> 00:25:42,415 And it's because I have a book coming out in the fall called 481 00:25:42,415 --> 00:25:43,765 Wrangling the Doubt Monster. 482 00:25:44,144 --> 00:25:46,825 And I'm fascinated by this topic about doubt and self 483 00:25:46,825 --> 00:25:48,314 doubt among creative people. 484 00:25:48,665 --> 00:25:51,109 And I'm having an absolute blast doing it. 485 00:25:51,560 --> 00:25:55,300 Writing a newsletter every week that's addressing some other facet 486 00:25:55,300 --> 00:26:00,839 or topic of this drawing on basically almost any, any thread that's out 487 00:26:00,839 --> 00:26:03,329 in the culture and I love doing it. 488 00:26:03,330 --> 00:26:04,509 I have a journalism background. 489 00:26:04,509 --> 00:26:08,899 And so I love research and sort of writing and essay writing now for someone else. 490 00:26:08,919 --> 00:26:09,939 That's going to sound like. 491 00:26:10,090 --> 00:26:14,029 Pulling their fingernails out and they shouldn't do that, but I love it. 492 00:26:14,879 --> 00:26:17,299 Timothy: Well, let's talk about this book that's coming out. 493 00:26:17,330 --> 00:26:18,889 So, uh, when is it coming out? 494 00:26:18,899 --> 00:26:21,499 When, uh, can we do pre orders on this? 495 00:26:22,039 --> 00:26:24,960 I'm excited about it because I'm sitting here going, I need 496 00:26:24,960 --> 00:26:26,109 another book for my bookcase. 497 00:26:26,425 --> 00:26:27,395 Amy: I pre you have Craig, right? 498 00:26:27,395 --> 00:26:27,965 Of course you do. 499 00:26:28,145 --> 00:26:29,505 Or 10 or 10. 500 00:26:29,565 --> 00:26:33,185 I think the, I think my publisher will have a pre link ready in 501 00:26:33,185 --> 00:26:35,265 the next, well, certainly in the next, certainly this spring. 502 00:26:35,485 --> 00:26:38,184 The, the, the whole thing is just, just now going to the 503 00:26:38,194 --> 00:26:39,745 advanced review copy stage. 504 00:26:39,995 --> 00:26:44,415 It's called Wrangling the Doubt Monster, Fighting Fears, Finding Inspiration. 505 00:26:44,755 --> 00:26:49,865 And from Bancroft Press in September, this September, I wrote this book. 506 00:26:49,905 --> 00:26:53,895 It's not a how to and it's, it's a short, compact. 507 00:26:54,325 --> 00:26:55,325 illustrated book. 508 00:26:55,395 --> 00:26:58,255 So it's really fun to turn the pages because the illustrations are great. 509 00:26:59,215 --> 00:27:02,974 That's really for anyone who doubts that they are good enough or that 510 00:27:02,974 --> 00:27:06,315 they have the talent or they can, they can make art in any form. 511 00:27:06,665 --> 00:27:11,185 And it really is meant to inspire and let people know that they are really seen. 512 00:27:11,614 --> 00:27:14,925 And it's the idea is that you can dip in and out of this book. 513 00:27:15,065 --> 00:27:17,945 This is not some big tome that you have to devote. 514 00:27:18,280 --> 00:27:20,040 Weeks to, to getting through. 515 00:27:20,429 --> 00:27:24,319 And I think it's also going to be a tremendous gift book for, for creative 516 00:27:24,330 --> 00:27:26,659 people to risk, to give and to receive. 517 00:27:26,939 --> 00:27:28,590 So I'm, I am very excited about it. 518 00:27:29,469 --> 00:27:32,490 Timothy: Well, you know what, as soon as they come up with a pre order, I am, 519 00:27:32,750 --> 00:27:34,359 I'm going to be standing first in line. 520 00:27:34,379 --> 00:27:36,730 Amy: People can get onto my, if you get onto my mailing list 521 00:27:36,750 --> 00:27:39,279 through my website, um, amywrights. 522 00:27:39,310 --> 00:27:43,969 live, you will be, you will be among the first to get the pre order link. 523 00:27:44,754 --> 00:27:47,304 Timothy: You got it here first from create our podcast, folks. 524 00:27:47,754 --> 00:27:52,054 It, you know, it's coming out in September to think about, you know, holiday season 525 00:27:52,054 --> 00:27:54,185 will be coming up before we even know it. 526 00:27:54,215 --> 00:27:56,604 So definitely pick up a copy of this book. 527 00:27:57,264 --> 00:28:00,715 Well, Amy, I want to thank you so much for joining us here and for 528 00:28:01,084 --> 00:28:06,719 really enlightening me on, you know, what a Again, I wish I would've 529 00:28:06,719 --> 00:28:10,330 met you back in 1988, but you know what, I'm glad I met you now. 530 00:28:10,370 --> 00:28:11,219 So thank you so much. 531 00:28:11,219 --> 00:28:11,370 It's not 532 00:28:11,370 --> 00:28:11,830 Amy: too late. 533 00:28:13,429 --> 00:28:17,279 Timothy: And I've got a author just, you know, she's, uh, you know, on 534 00:28:17,279 --> 00:28:19,789 the couch right now, half asleep. 535 00:28:19,809 --> 00:28:20,939 So we're good to go. 536 00:28:22,219 --> 00:28:23,599 Amy: Well, Tim, this has been wonderful. 537 00:28:23,870 --> 00:28:24,970 for a great conversation. 538 00:28:25,385 --> 00:28:26,015 Timothy: Absolutely. 539 00:28:26,025 --> 00:28:27,095 Thank you so much, Amy. 540 00:28:27,605 --> 00:28:30,725 So there you have my conversation with Amy Bernstein. 541 00:28:30,725 --> 00:28:33,614 She has a book coming out in September, so make sure that 542 00:28:33,615 --> 00:28:35,575 you get on her mailing list. 543 00:28:36,165 --> 00:28:40,645 And that way you can get the pre orders as soon as they come out. 544 00:28:41,215 --> 00:28:44,074 Now I have all of the links for Amy. 545 00:28:44,225 --> 00:28:47,575 In the show notes there, her Twitter account, her sub stack account, 546 00:28:47,625 --> 00:28:52,705 Instagram, her website, it's all right there in the show notes for you. 547 00:28:52,705 --> 00:28:57,945 So make sure you check her out and hey, maybe you need a book coach. 548 00:28:58,534 --> 00:29:01,985 I can tell you just the conversation that I had with her. 549 00:29:02,355 --> 00:29:06,195 It's making me think, Hey, I need a book coach for my novels that 550 00:29:06,195 --> 00:29:10,254 are coming out and to have somebody help me finish those novels. 551 00:29:10,745 --> 00:29:11,085 All right. 552 00:29:11,085 --> 00:29:14,045 Well, we've come to that part of the show where we're going to let you go ahead 553 00:29:14,045 --> 00:29:15,655 and get on with the rest of your day. 554 00:29:15,915 --> 00:29:20,105 I want to thank you so much for joining me here for this interview. 555 00:29:20,344 --> 00:29:23,655 And I want to thank Amy again for the knowledge that she 556 00:29:23,655 --> 00:29:25,455 shared with all of us here today. 557 00:29:25,844 --> 00:29:29,215 Go check her out, go to our website and for sure. 558 00:29:29,865 --> 00:29:35,725 You know, hire her on as your book coach, but for right now, I want you to go out 559 00:29:35,725 --> 00:29:43,054 there, tame that inner critic, create more than you consume and go out there and make 560 00:29:43,054 --> 00:29:45,054 some art for somebody you love yourself. 561 00:29:45,725 --> 00:29:46,825 I'll talk to you next time.