# ep 119. Colorism in the Workplace: Understanding Its Impact with Dr. Patrice LeGoy

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## [00:00:00] Introduction to the Topic of Colorism

[00:00:00] A Black Executive Perspective. Whether you're aware of it or not, it's a topic that is often avoided. We'll discuss race and how it plays a factor. And how we didn't even talk about this topic. Because we were afraid. A black executive perspective. I have, I have a friend who's Peruvian and she was the darkest girl in her family.

[00:00:22] And she said that she was told from the time she was young, you better marry someone European or someone white. Like that's your only chance for a good life. Hopefully your, your children have lighter skin or that, you know, they're, they're a mixed race because that's going to be their way out. That's going to be like that huge benefit to them.

[00:00:38] So just imagine like getting those messages over and over. It's. It's telling you who you are is not enough. Welcome to a Black Executive Perspective Podcast, a safe space where we discuss all matters related to race, especially race in corporate America. I'm your host, Tony Tidbit.

## [00:00:58] Personal Experiences with Colorism

[00:00:58] So I remember when I was a [00:01:00] kid, I was probably eight, nine, me and my sister got into a big fight and I forget what we're fighting about.

[00:01:07] We were talking years ago, right? And then I remember she got mad at me and she said, you black. And I can't remember exactly what that was. Right. Um, and the reason she said that, um, my skin was darker than my siblings because we had different fathers. And that's not the first time I had that type of insult.

[00:01:29] Or somebody called me a black, whatever. And although I didn't, it was tough. I, you know, it was a big thing for me. It was my first foray into the phenomenon of colorism. I didn't know what colorism was at that timeframe. But it was something that bothered me for a long period of time.

## [00:01:52] Understanding the Impact of Colorism

[00:01:52] Colorism can have that type of psychological and emotional impact on individuals who are targeted.

[00:01:59] It can lead to low [00:02:00] self esteem, depression, and anxiety. Individuals may internalize negative stereotypes and experience a sense of inadequacy or shame due to their skin color. Often reinforced by media representation that favor lighter skin tone. This can perpetuate harmful beauty standards and contribute to a marginalization of individuals with darker skin.

## [00:02:27] Guest Introduction and Background

[00:02:27] Our guest today, Dr. Patrice LeGoy, will discuss the background of colorism, its role in family, society, corporate, and professional world. And the opportunities, the healing, Dr. Lagoy, welcome to a Black Executive Perspective Podcast. Thank you so much, Tony. Happy to be back here again. And being back is very important.

[00:02:50] I mean, we're so blessed that you did come back. And for those. who probably have not heard, you know, the episode of being mindful of your mental health. Dr. [00:03:00] Lagoi came on and talked about, you know, the importance of mental health and mindfulness. And she blew it away. We got nothing but major accolades from that episode.

[00:03:11] And so for us to have you come back and really focus on an area. Um, well, we, uh, what I spoke about in the beginning, colorism is a blessing. So thank you because I, obviously you have a really busy schedule and, um, for you to be here, we really, really appreciate it. Um, so just for a little bit of background for the listeners, um, I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist in California.

[00:03:39] I also, um, am an international psychologist, and that means that I. focus on looking at mental health, mental well being through a cultural kind of stance. Um, that puts the individual as the center and the expert, um, rather than a lot of the kind of Western [00:04:00] psychology that just isn't applicable for so many of us, maybe even most of us.

[00:04:04] Um, and so, so that's really my focus. So everything that I do is through that lens. Um, through that culturally sensitive and knowledgeable lens. Um, so that's, so that's my, my background, um, in terms of my work, um, I work in private practice. I'm also an adjunct professor at the Chicago School of Professional Psychology.

[00:04:25] Um, and I'm on the board of a community mental health center, Open Paths. Um, and that center really focuses on serving low income people of color from marginalized communities. Um, just by making sure that their services are available to people who usually would not be able to take advantage of those services.

[00:04:43] Again, thank you because you're, like I said, very well accomplished and, um, you know, very, uh, Is this is an important topic that you know, we want to discuss and the only way we can get to the deeper understanding Solutions the effects is by [00:05:00] having this conversation. So are you ready to have this conversation?

[00:05:02] Dr. LeGoy? I'm ready All right.

## [00:05:04] Exploring the Global Prevalence of Colorism

[00:05:04] Let's get let's talk about it then so can you know, let's start off at the beginning Um, just so everybody's on the same page because some people may be hearing the word colorism for the first time and really don't Understand what that mean. So can you talk about what is colorism and then and then dive into a little bit how common it is in in various different type of cultures?

[00:05:28] Absolutely. So colorism, it's, it's something that I think we're all aware of, or most of us are aware of, but we don't really discuss it. And so even when I tell people that's what I research, I'm like, what exactly does that mean? Um, so colorism is discrimination based on skin tone, um, and also facial features, right?

[00:05:46] Um, that's, that's the, the background. The interesting thing about colorism is that. It happens within your group, your cultural group, and outside of your cultural group as well. Um, and we can go into that a little bit more. Um, part of the reason that [00:06:00] I wanted to study colorism is because I felt that we talk about racism, you know, we talk about that we've gotten better, you know, about talking about racism and people have tools and to understand and that kind of thing.

[00:06:13] But I think colorism seems to be something that's kept more, um, internal. So, if it's. To me, if it's your family, for instance, like the story you were telling, who is, who is discriminating against you, right? Because of the way that you look, there's, there's no safe in group for you. If I, as a black woman, in um, getting a hard time and I feel like it's due to my race, I can talk to other Black people, right?

[00:06:40] And they'll probably get support. They'll probably share their stories. But if I'm talking to my own, I'm considering my group, my cultural group, or my family, and they're the ones who are, you know, often calling me names or saying things about the way that I look, I, I think that you, you lose that, that feeling of safety and community in a way.

[00:06:58] And so that's why I found it really [00:07:00] interesting to study. Um, my research has been focused on colorism and skin lightening and, um, in Ghana, um, because, uh, skin bleaching is of course a big issue. And, you know, you mentioned. You know, different communities. I probably could have gone almost anywhere in the world that has people who have darker skin and study colorism.

[00:07:18] It really was difficult nearing it down because things like skin lightening, skin bleaching are common in Asia. They're common in Latin America. They're common in Africa. Um, and it all has to do with this. It's this view of lighter, being better, closer to white that you are, the more attractive you are, the more benefits that you have, the better you are in terms of being a good person.

[00:07:43] And it's, it's just completely covered the way that we look at the world, the way that we experience the world, depending on your appearance. So, um, so that's kind of my background in studying colorism, um, in terms of the history of it. It's really difficult to go back [00:08:00] to a time when it wasn't an issue, um, and in different cultures for different reasons.

[00:08:04] I think here in the U. S. We look at it tied to slavery, right, that the people who, um, had the lighter skin or the, the whiter features, um, that they would be able to, um, have more benefits, right, you know, house versus field, that kind of thing. Um, of course, we all know that how people got the lighter skin is, is a traumatic event in, you know, our history in and of itself, um, but it's still, you know, has connected us with.

[00:08:34] Lighter being better, right? And that colorism, and even, you know, now today, like you're telling a story from your childhood, it happens every day. Um, those kinds of things that were perpetuated. Now, outside of the US, you know, it's a little bit different, right? So if we look at, um, in Asia, for example, it's not because of slavery, right?

[00:08:52] But having lighter skin meant that you probably Did not have to work outside. And so there's a class [00:09:00] hierarchy, right? If you were able to be inside and maintain lighter skin, that that probably meant that you had more privilege, right? And so even now, today, you know, we were talking about how in Asia, there's so many skin lightening products, you know, it's really It's really seen as a point of pride, you know, the lighter your skin is, the closer to white that your skin is.

[00:09:18] Um, and it perpetuates from there. So it's different, you know, in different parts of the world, but it still exists. Right. So, I mean, and listen, that is, so number one, thank you for sharing that, you know. And I have a ton of questions I want to ask you, even just based on what you just got finished saying.

[00:09:35] Um, so let me ask you this. And again, when I'm a kid in Detroit, Michigan, and I'm going through what I'm going through, I'm not thinking global, right? I'm not thinking this is happening all over the world. I'm hearing this is happening in my house, um, and like you said, there's no safety because it's happening within the group.

[00:09:55] These are not white people saying this to me. These are my, this is my [00:10:00] family. So my question, the first question that I have, I was nine years old. My sister was seven. How would she know that dark was bad or dark and light was better? Where did that come from in terms of, you know, just her thinking that I was, you know, because I'm dark skin that, you know, I gotta be this black thing versus she's lighter skin because nobody in my family taught her that.

[00:10:31] So where would that come from? Yeah, that's so interesting, right? You know, it's not always the family. Sometimes some families go out of their way not to make it an issue, right? But we're also people living in the world. So even if your family says nothing about skin color, you watch TV shows, your sister watch TV shows, you know, do you see movies?

[00:10:51] Who, how are people represented based on how they look? Right? We, we, Children are smart. They, they know these kinds of things. There's a famous, [00:11:00] um, doll test that was done, um, with kids where, you know, you're, you're familiar with it, where kids, black kids are being shown dolls, white dolls, black dolls, which one's good, which one's nice, which one's bad, you know, which one's naughty.

[00:11:12] And that doesn't mean that someone told them this is what it is. It means that the world showed them. That this is what it is. Right. And so, you know, I think, I think that is important because some of us might say, well, my family didn't do that. So I'm sure I don't experience it or I don't, I don't discriminate against people based on skin tone, but you know, you can't really separate yourself from all of those outside influences, um, that just really like permeate our culture.

[00:11:37] And that's so powerful, right, Dr. Legault? Think about that for a second. Um, and I saw the Dow test thing, right? Which will, if anybody hasn't seen that, you want to watch that, right? Because it's, it blows you away because nobody told them, uh, these kids that these Dows represent anything. This is what they came up with by just the look of that.

[00:11:57] However, the thing is, is this, you [00:12:00] know, growing up and dealing with that, you know, that made me feel My self esteem was real low because if somebody said, you know, you're, you know, you're wearing bummy clothes, you can change that. We can, my mother could have go out and bought me some new clothes and next thing you know, I look better.

[00:12:18] Okay. If somebody says, Oh, your, your hair is out of shape or you need a new haircut, you could fix that. Okay. But you can't, and I guess some people are with the bleaching and stuff to that nature, but nine times out of 10, your skin tone is your skin tone. And how can you feel good about yourself? It's when you look in the mirror and the world and again, even within the family is saying that because you're dark skin, you're bad.

[00:12:47] You're not as handsome. You're not as adequate. Um, and because this person is light skin, they're better. Talk a little and I want to dive in a little bit.

## [00:12:57] The Psychological Impact of Colorism

[00:12:57] I want to get into the cultural from because each [00:13:00] you know, you know, Uh, um, you know different cultures around the world from india to hispanics, you know, this is something that's global but talk a little bit in terms of the, the, the negativity of the self esteem and the trauma that can be, that can come out of this for, for the people who are affected.

[00:13:22] Yes. I mean, when you, when you say that, Tony, too, that this is something that you can't change, there's things about Europeans you can, like it's, if we just sit a moment with that, it's, it's pretty absurd, right? That someone. Often people who made you, right, if you're a parent who were saying, Oh, you're too dark.

[00:13:40] I'm of you. I didn't have anything to do with this. Right. So you don't have anything. You can't do anything about it. It's how you were born. Right. And the things that you can do to change it are really detrimental to your health. Right. And we can talk about that as well. So It's, it's a, I think it leaves people with, [00:14:00] yes, the trauma, but also a feeling of helplessness, because what am I, what am I to do with that?

[00:14:04] You just, you just put this, all of our, you know, collective cultural trauma on sometimes a child, and I, I just have to live with it and try to make it make sense because it doesn't, right? Um, and so I think that's, I think that's a large part of it is that it, there's nothing that you can do about it. And Um, really keep yourself safe, you know, and so, um, I think that, that, that definitely adds to the trauma, um, the helplessness of it, um, the absurdity of it, of someone judging you based on that, you know, that is not under your control, um, and family judging you when it could have been anyone.

[00:14:40] It could have been it, and it would have made a little sense if somebody white said it, okay, right. It's still bad. It's still a negativity. But it's your own family. And I remember when, when it happened, my mother heard it and she jumped in immediately. And said, what did you call your brother? You don't ever say that to your brother.

[00:14:58] So she, but [00:15:00] just for my sister, who was two years younger to say that nobody taught her that right. But you just talked about how, you know, is what you see even at a young, as a young person. And does she have an understanding of the effect that, uh, it would have on me? No, she didn't. And to be fair. It wasn't just her.

[00:15:21] When I went to school, you know, uh, I was the joke of the class and not just me, but anybody that was dark skinned. I was blackie love. I was tar baby. I was all these things. And at the end of the day, you can let people laugh and, you know, kids are cruel. Um, however, all that being said, the way that makes you feel.

[00:15:43] About yourself. It wasn't I wasn't smart. It wasn't all these other things. It wasn't that I was a good person I didn't have a good character anything like that It was because I was dark skinned and then think about it in terms of you know, I wanted to date Girls, right or I like a girl, [00:16:00] right? My first thing is they're not gonna like me because I'm dark skinned Okay, so and it was a it's a big issue.

[00:16:07] So, you know and into your point let's sit here again because there's Millions of people around the planet that's dealing with this on a daily basis.

## [00:16:18] Colorism in Different Cultures

[00:16:18] And I remember when I went into the army, and I was talking to one of my friends who's Hispanic, and I thought this was just a, a, a me issue, okay? And then he broke it down.

[00:16:29] I was like, Tony, are you kidding me? You know, you got dark skinned Cubans, you got light skinned Cubans, you got dark skinned Puerto Ricans, you got light skinned Puerto Ricans, and you know, my family, he was Puerto Rican, within my family, if you were really dark skinned, which he kind of was, but not as dark as I am, but, you know, they didn't even want to associate with you, you know, so, you Talk a little bit about that as well, because that is something that's permanent through out the different cultures around the globe.

[00:16:56] Yeah, it's so true. Um, when I tell people what I [00:17:00] study, almost everyone has a story. Um, so, you know, I have, I have a friend who's Peruvian and she was the darkest girl in her family. And she said, if she was told from the time she was young, you better marry someone European or someone white. Like that's your only chance for a good life.

[00:17:15] Hopefully you're. Your children have lighter skin or that, you know, they're, they're mixed race because that's going to be their way out. That's going to be like that huge benefit to them. So just imagine like getting those messages over and over. It's, it's telling you who you are is not enough. And so either you need to do something about it and marry someone and hopefully your kids are, you know, more attractive or, you know, have better opportunities than you do.

[00:17:37] Or, you know, this is just the life that you're going to have and, you know, too bad. Like there's nothing that can be done about it. Um, and, you know, you, it's, it's definitely something that is in so many cultures earlier you'd mentioned in India. And same thing with like the different, you know, skin Lightning products, um, and how closely they related they are to, um, not specifically cast, but [00:18:00] definitely in terms of privilege and hierarchy, more likely to have lighter skin.

[00:18:04] Um, the advertisements that are in. Across, you know, different, different countries, um, you know, are pretty unabashed in, in advertising, you know, lighter, brighter skin, um, and, and people really will, will try right to, to do whatever they can to get ahead. And I think, I think this is, you know, something that is really important in this message is I think that we can get lost.

[00:18:31] In saying, okay, well, that's just a vanity issue. I need to have lighter skin. You just, you know, you want to be prettier. You, you know, you think that'll make you more attractive. Right. And it's, it's not because it permeates our culture so much. There are real societal benefits to having lighter skin to have having more Caucasian like features.

[00:18:51] Right. And so, you know, whether that's in terms of. The lighter your skin is, the more likely you are to finish higher education, the less likely you are to [00:19:00] go to jail or, you know, all of these more likely to get married. There's several different factors that really are connected to it. So it's not, it's not like, okay, it's just a aesthetic issue.

[00:19:11] It's just a beauty issue or a vanity issue. It is that, okay. People who may feel like there's not a lot of other opportunities for them to advance, um, to socially or economically advance, may look at that and say, I'm willing to take the chance because it could improve my life a little bit and that might be worth it.

[00:19:29] And so I think just like, when we talk about colorism, um, it's important to talk about it as something that's. So very present, very current, and also something that is not just about vanity, right? It is something that, you know, people are making sometimes calculated decisions. Um, so I think that it's important for us to, to recognize that.

[00:19:54] Colorism or using skin products to try to lighten your [00:20:00] skin, for example, um, that it's not about vanity because I think that allows people to be dismissive and say, Oh, that's so stupid. Like who does that? Why would you do that? It because. Colorism, um, and discrimination based on features and skin tone because it's so permeates our culture, there are real benefits to having lighter skin that show it the lighter your skin is, the more likely you are to, you know, finish higher education, the more likely you are to get married, the less likely you are to go to prison, or if you're in prison, less likely you are to get the death penalty.

[00:20:36] I mean, it's, it really is so important, even from the time that children are little. If kids get in trouble in school, all black classroom, black teacher, there's a, uh, attractiveness. Halo. And so the child with the lighter skin or the more Caucasians like features is generally assumed to be better behaved and a child who.

[00:20:59] It does not [00:21:00] have those features may be considered to be bad. Right? And so that kind of thing follows kids more likely to get suspended in school means more likely to drop out of school means maybe more likely to end up in some kind of like criminal activity. All it just goes on and on. Right? And it's it's these little day to day kinds of discriminations that people don't even realize they're doing, you know, but it happens.

[00:21:22] And so I just I think that when we talk about it, like, you know, it's we want to frame it as Something that is current going on today. It's not something in the past that we overcame. Right? Um, it's something that we can talk about today and people have experiences today. And it's also something that. is much larger than, than appearances.

[00:21:42] Right. You know, and, and so a bunch of things are flashing in my head, right? So number one, who, and, and, but I want to go in and I want to dive into this a little bit deeper. But first, who said that black wasn't beautiful?

## [00:21:56] Colorism in Media and Society

[00:21:56] Where did that start? Okay. Number two, who said that [00:22:00] light was better and all these type things?

[00:22:02] Because, you know, And then while I was thinking this, while you were talking about, it's not just a vanity issue. I remember as a kid, when I'm watching television, okay, and I'll give you some real examples here. You know, I used to watch Tarzan, okay, with Johnny Weisman that was made in the 1930s. Okay, and you know, if anybody, I'm pretty sure everybody know what Tarzan is.

[00:22:28] Maybe you don't, right? White dude that was left in Africa, baby grows up in the jungle. Next thing you know, he's, he's the king of the jungle. Okay? And all the natives, all the Africans were dark skinned. They looked it, they looked like they were, you know, um, um, um, creatures. All right. I think about Uh, gone with the wind when all the slaves were dark skinned, they wasn't, they were not predict, it wasn't projected as [00:23:00] being smart.

[00:23:01] I think about all the crime, the police series on television where you had Columbo and you had Barnaby Jones and you had, you know, all, if it was anybody that was on the show that was black. They were a criminal and they were dark skinned, right? And so, you know, I think Shirley Temple, again, I'm, I'm dating myself here, right?

[00:23:23] But, you know, uh, uh, uh, Bill Robinson, who used to dance with Shirley Temple. He was really dark skinned, so he was a dancer. So, if I'm hearing you correctly, a lot of these images that we see Unconsciously makes us think or say, and then, and not only that, just our regular society of having, finding a hard time to get a job, or the people that you see get jobs, and stuff to that nature, they're lighter skinned, so all these things basically without being told what colorism is, all these things go into our psyche, and basically [00:24:00] says, dark is bad, and light is light.

[00:24:03] Is that what I'm hearing here? Yes, absolutely. You know, and I mean, we talked a little bit about, you know, where that comes from. And, you know, in the U. S. you're dating back to, to slavery and receiving, you know, different kind of benefits, you know, of course, at a cost, um, for having, you know, children, you know, who were from like the slave master.

[00:24:24] Right? Um, and, you know, it's, it's a pretty effective tactic of dividing, right? Um, dividing people and, and therefore exerting more control. It's, It really works, um, and it continues to work. Right. And, you know, it's, I think it's really interesting that you are talking about shows that were made a long time ago, but I don't know if you remember Tony, but maybe like, I mean, 4 or 5 years ago, um, there was a casting call that was leaked, um, and, um, and it.

[00:24:55] It said that there were, I think it separated people, the women who were, who [00:25:00] were being, um, they were being cast for a movie into different tiers. And so the top tier, let's say A, that would be a woman with light skin, long hair, no extensions, no weaves, right? And then the lower end, which were the ones who were like, you know, not worthy of being a girlfriend, you know, definitely portrayed very negatively.

[00:25:21] You know, I think it said, you know, this person would be kind of like ghetto, you know, and they had dark skin, you know, um, short natural hair or, you know, no extensions. It just, it was, it was just laid out there so clearly without shame that this tier a person. Is going to be portrayed this way in this more positive way.

[00:25:41] And this tier F person couldn't be anything other than, you know, ghetto and like an unattractive and, you know, just, you didn't, you understand. That's, that's recent. That's in 2020, right? Yeah. 2020. Yeah. It's, it's just, it's, it's still there. [00:26:00] And people have in their minds. What a certain person looks like, you know, if you're describing different people and we have it from all of these, like, if you're talking about from the time that you're a kid, all of the times you've seen, and then it's been, it's been kind of solidified by the other things you see.

[00:26:17] So, even if your own family doesn't talk about it. if you exist in the world, you're probably aware of whether you receive privilege or whether you receive some kind of discrimination based on your appearance, right? You know, I, um, I remember you ever saw the Spike Lee movie School Days? Okay. Where it was, you know, uh, I, they did, it was, it was based on what we're talking about, right?

[00:26:44] It was based on colorism where you had a dark group of kids, you know, uh, college students and a light skin of college students in the. The dark skin, you know, as they did a little dance about good and straight hair and it was, you know, the dark skins were called [00:27:00] gigaboos and the light skin were called, you know, want to be white, right?

[00:27:03] So think about that for a second. That's in our colleges and stuff.

## [00:27:07] Colorism in Education and Corporate America

[00:27:07] Talk a little bit about the effect in terms of going to school, how colorism either, uh, becomes a detriment for people who have darker skin. Yeah. You know, you're making me think of, um, when I was studying this, um, in, in Ghana last year, um, I was talking to college age students and I remember a story that one participant was telling me and she had lighter skin and she said that, you know, there was a time when she straightened her hair and, um, that she received a lot of privilege from that.

[00:27:41] And I think she, it was really important that she shared it. That didn't always feel good either, right? Because, um, there's a really interesting example that she gave when she was running for student office. And she was running against someone else whose skin was much darker and basically the other students told this person who had darker skin to just drop out because [00:28:00] they wanted the person that I was interviewing to represent them.

[00:28:03] And she said, well, we, I want to have a debate. I want to talk about these issues. And they said, there's no point. We're going to vote for you regardless. And she'd had a few of these kinds of experiences. She said, yes, if you, if I tell you that story, it doesn't feel like, oh, you should be feel bad about that.

[00:28:20] But she said, I, then I feel like people don't see me either, right. They're, they're still deciding who she is based on her appearance and she's, they're not letting the full, you know, her full self to come through. And, and that hurts all of us, right. Exactly. As much as the, you know, discrimination does as well.

[00:28:38] And so I just think. It's a, it's a lose, lose proposition, even if we're talking about the people who receive privilege, that doesn't necessarily make them feel good because they may also feel isolated in a different way, you know, being held at a, at, in a different standard, things assumed about them that are not true.

[00:28:55] Exactly. And, and, you know, I remember when I came to corporate America. [00:29:00] You know, I didn't really, you know, you, you have to dress like the, like everyone, right? Part of the assimilation here, you know, blue suits, white shirts, tie. And I didn't like wearing white shirts because it accentuated how my dark skin.

[00:29:17] And I felt that when I was in corporate America, um, that because I had dark skin, some people were intimidated. When they saw me. So can you, cause I know we talked about school. We talk about family. We talk about school. Tell us a little bit, uh, what's the effect in corporate America. Yeah, it's so interesting.

[00:29:39] I used to work in corporate America as well.

## [00:29:41] Personal Experiences with Colorism

[00:29:41] And when I think about at least my experience. I would just be happy to see another person of color in the same room as me, right? And so I, I couldn't even have time to get into, you know, colorism or any of that. It's like, Oh good. It's not just me, right? Um, and so, so it's, it's interesting, you know, because I think that you mentioned people would [00:30:00] be intimidated.

[00:30:01] And of course, Whether you were told that or not, you feel that they're they made a connection. Your skin is darker, darker. You're more aggressive. There's something scary about you. Right? Um, and I think that that is something that that follows us. Right? Like, I think, you know, when, uh.

## [00:30:19] Colorism and Stereotypes

[00:30:19] I talked to black women about this who are in corporate America that they may say they go out of their way not to be the angry black woman.

[00:30:29] Right? And so that stops people from maybe calling out things that need to be called out because you know what the assumption is about you. And I think that the further your appearance moves away from. What has been established as the status quo or the preference, the more likely you are to have to overcome or at least be aware of all of these kind of stereotypes.

[00:30:52] Right? And so it's really, you kind of have to work very hard to think, okay, I'm going to say this, but I need to say it in a way that doesn't, you know, intimidate people. It [00:31:00] doesn't scare people. It's just too much work, too much emotional heavy lifting to be doing, you know, for other people who, you know, Maybe with a conversation about something like this could be made aware of how their behavior impacts you versus you having to, to dance around how they, how their perception of you.

[00:31:17] Exactly.

## [00:31:18] The Emotional Toll of Colorism

[00:31:18] And you know, and that is a, that's a emotional, that's trauma. Okay. That is stress that a person has to deal with because, you know, you always say being negative. There's no effort. You don't have to do anything extra to be negative. Right. Because we're we're born in a negative world so negative, they ain't gonna hire me.

[00:31:40] You don't even have to, you don't have to think being positive, you gotta take the next thought. Okay, well you know what? It's probably gonna work out. Right.

## [00:31:48] Colorism and Perception

[00:31:48] So back to what you were just saying a minute ago, you know, you know, a person like myself, or like you said, black women or anybody that has darker skin, they have to play chess here.

[00:31:59] And think [00:32:00] things through before they do anything because to your point, they're going to be labeled aggressive and, and, and they're going to be labeled these stereotypes and to be fair, and this is the question I want to ask you. So you hear the black angry man, he's the black angry man or the black angry woman or, uh, he's too aggressive.

[00:32:18] She's too aggressive. When we talk about, I always believe words paint pictures, okay, you know, seeing something from a picture standpoint is, uh, it goes in your mind and then you associate a definition of that. I, has there been pictures of angry black women that are light skinned? Or angry black men that are light skinned?

[00:32:41] Because the reason I'm asking is because it always comes across when you're dark skinned, right? But I would imagine just, you know, the odds tell me that somebody got upset or they were passionate. I mean, and what I mean by angry, that stereotype where they become, you know, they're passionate about a point.

[00:32:57] Hey, I believe we should do this and this and that. [00:33:00] If they're light skinned, do they get labeled that? Yeah, I mean, I think that it's definitely more common that, you know, the darker skin that that's going to be the aggressive, you know, and I think we just have to think about like, who's making the rules and how, how are we all decided to be complicit in this?

[00:33:19] Right. And so I think the more we talk about it, because it, it ha it's not talked about very much, like it's not, it's not discussed. And so. If we don't talk about it, people aren't aware necessarily of why I feel more comfortable with this person than that person. And what is it, why am I quick to, to label this person as something, um, you know, versus another person.

[00:33:43] So, you know, I think that the more we talk about it, the more we can kind of say, Why do I feel, or ask yourselves, why do I feel more comfortable with someone who, who looks a little bit more like me than someone else? You know, why does that person make me think like, [00:34:00] oh, I don't know if I can really trust them or not.

[00:34:02] Um, I think that that's, it's a really important, only way to kind of overcome this is to have these kinds of conversations. Right.

## [00:34:10] Colorism in Hiring Practices

[00:34:10] You know, one of the things I read this not too long ago, Dr. Lagoy, um, you know, and it was about the hiring practices and it was if somebody had a black sounding name and somebody had a white sounding name, you know, the, the, the, the applicant who had a black sounding name probably wouldn't get a call back or the percentages are very, very low versus somebody with a white sounding name.

[00:34:35] Tell us now, since we're all on LinkedIn, people look you up on LinkedIn. There's a picture that everyone has on LinkedIn. People check you out if they're interested in talking to you about other type of opportunities could be hiring, working together from a business partnership standpoint. Tell us a little bit how colorism plays in that role.

[00:34:54] Yeah, it's so interesting. When I think about hiring, I think about one of [00:35:00] the biggest issues being, uh, people who are looking within their own existing circle. To find new people, right? And so if you are, if you're not exposed and not, you know, in community with a lot of different people, you're going to navigate towards what feels familiar what feels closest to you.

[00:35:21] And I think that. You know, will there be some people who look at someone's image and be like, uh, I don't know if I'm really comfortable with them and they'll skip over. I think, I think that that's, that's a thing and people might not even be able to verbalize that. They are, there probably are a few people who will say, uh, there's something about that person's appearance that makes me uncomfortable.

[00:35:42] So I want to go with someone. Who makes me feel okay, right? Who I, I'm used to being around this kind of person. Um, I think that the, the information that we've learned about different people's names and what people assume about that, I think that's, that's very, it's very important. I think that having your [00:36:00] image out there and having, having to have a picture of yourself out there.

[00:36:04] It's hard to know how many opportunities are being missed because of that. I know people might feel that they, that they are right. And, and they, they could very well be right. I think it does go back to that. Like, who am I comfortable with and why am I only comfortable with people like this? And how come many of the people making the decisions about hiring can, can make a decision based on that.

[00:36:25] Do you know what I mean? I think that I think there's a lot of issues to kind of unpack within within that question and how it impacts us in the environment. But I think I think a lot of it is. Lack of representation, right? And so, you know, if there's one, if there's one black person in a meeting and they have to speak up for all black people, that's exhausting.

[00:36:45] And it's like, it's not sustainable, right? If there's a lot of people of color, a lot of people from marginalized communities, first of all, no one has to be the spokesperson, which is not fun to be. And also everyone gets to see different types [00:37:00] of people, different types of people. Black people, but different types of black executives, different types of, you know, female executives or other people of color, right?

[00:37:07] You get to see, oh, there's, there's differences here. The way that we all have always had to see, right? There's not, if, if, if a white man in a corporate meeting speaks up, no one's saying, oh, he's speaking for all white men. He's speaking for himself, right? But if you're the only one, and usually the only one, then it's like, it takes on a different meaning.

[00:37:28] And I think that goes back to all of that emotional heavy lifting. That we were talking about colorism, you know, racism. It's also so intricately tied in. Um, I think that where the colorism, uh, kind of leads us to is it's just, it's very insidious. You know, you don't have to get a message saying, you don't have to have someone actually telling you this is bad, this is good, because it's everywhere around us, including in our workplaces.

[00:37:57] So based on that, and let's, let's, let's [00:38:00] take this as a tiered approach. Okay.

## [00:38:02] Addressing Colorism in Families

[00:38:02] So based on that, when we're talking about colorism from a family standpoint, because like you said, it's everywhere, it's global, it's in different cultures. What would you recommend that people could do in terms of, you know, solve, I wouldn't say solve, but be able to navigate this and know, number one, that regardless of how dark their skin color is, they're still a valuable human being.

[00:38:30] They're still beautiful. They're all the things. Um, that, that make up beauty of a human being, not just what their skin tone is. So how could we, what would your recommendations be in terms of solving this first from a family situation? I think it's so important to, to think about the words that we use. Um, to think about, you know, what that impact might be and to talk about it.

[00:38:53] Right. I think that if you try to call out someone in your family, they might say like, Oh no, I don't really believe that. But [00:39:00] then you have, I mean, Tony, you remember how old you were, how old your sister was, this has really like been with you, you know, your whole life. Right. And so it's, it's those kinds of things where someone else might say, Oh, I just was a joke, you know, why are you mad about that?

[00:39:15] But it, words. Do you matter? They do make a difference, right? So even things like, for example, people might say, like, oh, that person's fair and that meaning they have light skin, but we also equate fairness with, you know, princesses and beauty and that kind of thing. And so just just like, separating those kinds of things that tell us.

[00:39:35] This is, this is good. This is not. And, and being very aware. And if you make a mistake, we all make mistakes, then owning that, oh, I probably shouldn't have said it like that. You know, let's talk about, let's talk about it. And I think we have to do that with our children. We need to talk about it with our friends, call out these things, right?

[00:39:53] Notice them. I think that, you know, It's not, it's not that we accepted them, but [00:40:00] we're used to it. Everyone's kind of used to it, you know, and cause an eye roll and like, okay, here we go again. But I think that, you know, we have to, we have to acknowledge, you know, our role in it and, and be open about, about the impact that it has.

[00:40:15] Right. Like that's something that we can all do. Would you recommend so these need to be proactive conversations, right? So in other words and again if if this was 20 you know 20 23 2023 and uh family had that type of dynamic where a couple of kids were darker and and and lighter than the other The mother, father need to sit down and have this proactive conversation, um, about colorism and, and, and nipping in the bud immediately versus just letting whatever happens.

[00:40:49] Is that basically what you're saying? I think so. And I know that's not easy to do. But I think if you don't tell your kids the world will right. And so you need to get out [00:41:00] ahead of it and say, look, look at our family. We're all these different shades. No one's any better than anyone else. No one's any worse.

[00:41:05] The world might tell you these messages. So I'm going to give you a different message. I'm going to give you a message that then you can like carry within yourself. Right. Um, and that tells you you are as good as anyone else. You're not better than anyone else. You're as good as anyone else. Right. And yeah.

[00:41:19] We, we all just need that foundation within us so that when the world tells us that we're not good enough, we have another voice that says, I don't believe that. That's not real. You know, that's this person's problem. That's this society's problem. It's not mine. Exactly. And, and I, I love what you said too, because you just, you're a hundred percent right.

[00:41:37] If you, if the family don't, don't say anything, the world will. Okay. And when the world say something, you're going to be shocked. And nine times out of ten, we don't go back when we hear something that the world says. We don't go back and say, Mommy, they said this, or Daddy, they say this. We just internalize it and we move forward.

[00:41:58] So they may never even get a [00:42:00] chance to be able to help deal with it. My mother, you know, once this situation happened, I, and then I had another situation. I think I told you when I was at school and everybody was calling me names. And I came home one day and I was crying. And she said, what was, what was wrong?

[00:42:15] And I told her and she, from that moment on, she kept reinforcing my self esteem. She said, Tony, you're a handsome black boy. I mean, sometimes she would just look at me and say, Tony, you're, she just kept saying. Over and over and over again. And sometimes I knew it was my mother, right? Sometimes I, she would just be looking at me.

[00:42:37] I look over, I'm like, mom, why are you looking at me? I just want to tell you how handsome you are. And by her doing that. It helped me, right? It gave me some type of solace, some type of reference point to say, you know what? I'm not, I am handsome. I do, it doesn't matter if my skin is darker. So I, I think [00:43:00] that conversation, having it early as possible is really the key, right?

[00:43:06] Because like you said, you've already, that way you'll, you'll have a force field. So then when the world comes, it's not going to be shocking. Absolutely. And I think that idea of you're handsome. Doesn't matter what the world says, but also you're a good person, right? You have, you have qualities that can not be taken away from you.

[00:43:25] Um, and I think that that's an important thing, like an important message for all. People, and I'm going to say adults as well, like you just need to hear, you know, you are a good person in the world. So when we were talking about the doll test and it's like, okay, what doll is bad, right? Because kids think of things in that way, good, bad, and just knowing not only you're handsome, you're a good person, you're smart, all of these kinds of things that we need to give to each other, children and adults.

[00:43:51] Um, it's just, it's so important to protect us. From the world and also I think not just protect us, but also give us the desire [00:44:00] to then change things because we know that everyone's not going to be as fortunate to receive those messages from their parents or from their friends. Right? And so what can we do in the world to get this message out?

[00:44:11] Like, I'll acknowledge that this is absurd. And yet here it is. Right? And so what are we going to do about it? How are we going to talk about this moving forward? Like, what do what do we need to work? To create in terms of conversations in terms of changes so that we don't keep perpetuating this, this cycle.

[00:44:30] Right. And I think, you know, talking to your family is one of those things, talking to, you know, talking to friends. And I'm not saying don't go up to all your friends of color and be like, let's talk about colorism. I'm not saying that. I'm saying, think about what you can do, right. Um, think about what you can do to notice your behavior and what you can do to change your behavior and change your words.

## [00:44:50] Colorism in Corporate Society

[00:44:50] And speaking of that, taking that to the next step, how do, what solutions would you recommend from, you know, from a corporate society, right, from hiring practices, from [00:45:00] promotions, from even breaking those stereotypes of the angry black or black man or black woman? Yeah, I think that, you know, the way that D I J, you know, for better or for worse, you know, in some ways has become, um, more common within corporate, you know, environments that talking about this as well is really important because I think that someone might say like, Oh, I have.

[00:45:24] Black friends are I hired, you know, this black person and if you're not, if this is not part of your cultures, it's not something you've experienced. You may not be aware of this. You may not be aware of this kind of the biases that people have. Um, and I think that including that in these trainings and these discussions that people have in corporate America.

[00:45:45] It's just, it's really valuable because it gets people talking. I can't not tell you how many people had never heard the term colorism, but then when I explained it, oh, okay, yeah, got it. Or at least with examples, like we were talking about the casting call, you told a story and actually made me [00:46:00] think of something, Tony, that I just want to quickly share.

[00:46:03] When I was in first grade, I was the only black kid in my class and I remember this kid called me burnt toast. And I was like, what? Like, you know, and I thought, I don't, I didn't necessarily equate that to having lighter, darker skin. There was no one else but me and my sister in the school who was black.

[00:46:16] But I went home and told parents were like, that kid doesn't know anything. Like you're fantastic. You're like beautiful, smart with all these, all these things. Right. And so I went back to school the next day and I was like, like, you're dumb. Like, you don't know what you're talking about. What, you know, whatever.

[00:46:30] It was first grade. Um, my insults may not have been that great, but anyway, I was like, Oh, this is not about me. This is this kid's problem. You know? And I think If we would, I felt safe to do that to my parents. If I felt like they were criticizing me because of my appearance, probably not. Right. And so what would that have done to me if I didn't get a chance to have that corrected conversation?

[00:46:54] Um, and that repair with, with my, within my family, within a place where I felt safe. Um, [00:47:00] so I think, I think sharing those kinds of stories like you shared with me and, you know, I'm sharing with you if, if that happens and that happens in a environment, it gives people example work environment, gives people examples of what that can feel like, what those offhand comments can feel like.

[00:47:15] Um, and, and it's not the people of color in your workplace. It's not their job to. Give you, show you their trauma and, you know, help you heal and that kind of thing. Right. So I think we need to be really, really, um, mindful of that, um, because that's more emotional heavy lifting. Right. I'm talking about training by a professional, not, you know, asking someone to share all the vulnerabilities with you.

[00:47:41] I can share that with you now because I feel comfortable with you. And, you know, we're not at work. Right. Um, I don't, I think that. Right. In the corporate environment, we have to just be very, very mindful of how these kind of sensitive subjects are discussed. And someone may say, I don't want to talk about that.

[00:47:56] I don't feel comfortable or safe enough to talk about what [00:48:00] happened to me in this work environment, or I don't want you to be thinking of that story every time you talk to me. And so I don't, I'm not going to share it. And that's, I think it's a completely appropriate response. Right. That's fine too. I think to your point though, I think, and yes, it needs to be with the professional, there needs to be training, but I do think that this topic needs to be a part of the, the D and I, uh, curriculum, because this is, and, and, and again, this is subconscious.

[00:48:31] You know unconscious for the most part. However, there's a real effect here And you know the more like you've been stating throughout our episode here the more that people are aware Right the more that they can be able to say, okay, you know what we always? We always do a tap dance. We're always trying to, you know, navigate and we're always trying to say, okay, I got to be careful because if I say it is, they don't think this.

[00:48:57] So if I come off passionate, they don't think [00:49:00] I'm angry. Well, guess what? We need corporate America to do the same tap dance, right? They need to be aware of things that go on with people of color, and this is one of them. And then they need to be like, Okay, you know what? Let me be careful because if I say this, this could trigger something else, right?

[00:49:16] It should, the shoe should go on both feet here, and I think, but the only way that's going to happen, to your point, they need to be aware. Absolutely. And people need to be held accountable, right, for, for the things that are done or the things that are not done to change the environment, for sure.

## [00:49:33] Final Thoughts and Solutions

[00:49:33] So Dr.

[00:49:33] Legoy. Final thoughts that you want to leave the audience. Yeah. I mean, I think that the most important thing and like the reason I'm so glad we're having this conversation is just, it's just something that we just need to get out from under the shadows because it's hidden, but it's not, if that makes sense, right.

[00:49:50] It's everywhere, but we don't talk about it. And so it's, you were saying, Tony, you thought it was just your family, right. And. Until you talk about it with [00:50:00] other people and they tell you their, their story and their experience, that's when it kind of comes out from under the shadows. And it's, it's not anyone's fault.

[00:50:07] It's everything. It's everything that has been existing in the world. Right? And so I think it's really important that we, uh, receive. Different messages than maybe what we're getting from the media, or, you know, we're getting from from all of these different kind of cultural touch points. We need we need a corrective message about about colorism.

[00:50:31] About racism, all of these things, but also the impact of colorism and being very clear when we talk about it, that this is not something that's in people's heads. It's not something that affects people in this other place. It's something that affects all of us, um, day to day and, and can have really significant impacts on our level of success in life, um, our socioeconomic.

[00:50:55] status, all of these different kinds of things. It's really important to, to lay the [00:51:00] foundation of, of colorism and what it means and how it impacts all of us. Um, and then have the discussion. That is so true. I really appreciate you coming on and sharing this. This is an important topic and look, we can talk about this as you know.

[00:51:16] We can be talking about this the next four or five hours, right? Because there's so, the depth to it is so rich. Um, but I love how you came in and introduced what it is, talked about the effects that it have culturally, societal, family, corporate, and then also provided some great solutions in terms of really just having those conversations, um, to make people aware.

[00:51:39] And then more importantly, from a family standpoint, um, you know, as you, like you said earlier. The world is going to tell you, so it's important that you tell your family first. Dr. LaGoy, anything that a Black executive perspective podcast can do for you. I think you getting the word out about this, which a lot of people go their [00:52:00] whole lives without discussing.

[00:52:01] Uh, I think it's just, it's so valuable, Tony. I think it's, it's really important. I think that you sharing your story, your experience and how it impacted you is, is valuable for other people to hear and, you know, not feel alone and maybe be willing to, to share their story and what they think would help.

[00:52:18] Right. Because I'm not. That's all expert on colorism. Um, I think there's a lot of people who might have ideas about what we can all do as individuals, um, to really, to repair a lot of the damage that has been done. Exactly, exactly. Well, guess what? We're definitely going to keep pushing this out. I hate to be greedy here, but I'd love to have you come back again at some point to talk about, because you're just so knowledgeable and you break things down so simplistic.

[00:52:44] Um, and I think by doing that, that, that opens up people where they can really learn something. They can walk away from, you know, topics to be, to be frank, to be fair. That most people don't know. Right. So really appreciate you coming on. And like [00:53:00] I said, I'm gonna get a little greedy. So I know we've got the holidays, you know, I'm selling, I'm going to send Santa my, my wish, my, my, my wishlist.

[00:53:08] All right. And that's having Dr. Lagoa come back on sometime in 2024. So thanks a lot. Anytime. We're blessed to have you. So.

## [00:53:16] Tony's Tidbit

[00:53:16] It's time now for Tony's tidbit. It's time for Tony's tidbit. And based on what Dr. Legault talked about, we talked about colorism today's tidbit is by Carlos Wallace and the tidbit says skin color is nature's paintbrush, creating a masterpiece of hues that leaves us in.

[00:53:39] All of the beauty that surrounds us. And that is so true. And as Dr. Lagoi, you know, stated earlier about colorism, it's not about the skin tone. It's about who you are as a person and all the other things that bring, uh, our human element together, besides our beauty or our [00:54:00] bad. So I hope you enjoy this episode of colorism by our guest, Dr.

[00:54:05] Patrice Lagoi. If you enjoyed this episode, please go to our website, signed up for updates at a black executive perspective. com. Leave us a rating and review. You can follow a black executive perspective and listen to our podcasts wherever you get your podcasts. You can follow us on all the social platforms, LinkedIn, Twitter.

[00:54:27] Instagram, Facebook, YouTube, YouTube at Tony tidbit BEP for my fabulous guest, Dr. Patrice Legoy for my executive producer, AA. I'm Tony tidbit.

## [00:54:41] Closing Remarks

[00:54:41] We talked about it. We love you, and we're out. Thank you for tuning in to this episode of Tony Tidbit, A Black Executive Perspective, and for joining in today's conversation.

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