Samuel 0:00

So I suggested and I didn't think she would entertain the idea. I said, Well, why don't come online, do karaoke, have a karaoke night, have a few drinks, and she was keen for the idea, and I just couldn't believe it. And that was my chance.

Alex Melia 0:16

Welcome to stories of men beneath the surface. I'm Alex Amelia. Join me as we discover what it means to be a man in the modern era.

Today's episode is about the power games we play in relationships. Coming out of the pandemic was a particularly unstable time for Samuel. He just moved to a new place, change jobs and ended a four year relationship. One day, an old friend came to visit him and they decided to have a night out.

Samuel 0:54

We had a few drinks at mine and we went to this bar in town to really cold night, because it was coming towards Christmas. It was one of those outside Alpine lodge bars, quite a busy vibe and was stood outside and drinking and in quite a good spirits. There was music playing, but most people stood outside by the heaters. And just by chance stood at this table next to these two girls. And one of these girls particularly really took my attention. Small blonde girl, which is my type generally beanie hat on quite a bit Cokes. It was cold. And I think blue jeans really easy to talk to you straight away very open, really warm, open people that can just take a joke and have a laugh. That was Elise and I was just drawn to her. And one of the first things we spoke about was my friend Carrie has got quite a lot of tattoos. And she said, Oh, I've got some tattoos I regret. She actually had a lyric from a Smith song on her foot. And I kind of looked at my friend Kevin, I was like, This is so strange, because we were literally talking before we left to go to that bar about the Smiths and what our favorite Swift song was. And I chose the song that she had tattooed on her foot. I was hooked in straightaway, pretty much. So I went to the bar. And I think we got we had a drink together at the bar. And we were just chatting and friend Kev was like, can we go because I'm so cold. He actually said to me, we'll get her number. Then I asked her if she gave it to me. And we said we were going to meet up later in the night maybe when they were going to get some food at the German market. We wanted to go to another bar. Knowingly I went, we went to this bar and there was no signal, go out of the bar and had like Miss call offer and a text. And by the time I got the message, and I rang her, she was like, Oh, we're on the way home now because we didn't hear back from you didn't know what you were doing. So I was like, just my luck. Like that's that's that might not see her again. We were texting quite a bit after that. The similarities was so crazy. There was so many coincidences. The Godfather, it was one of her favorite films. And it's my favorite film. And she had a photo of it on a wall and I've got a photo of a godfather on my wall. We were born on the same day. So we both got exactly the same date of birth, we would talk for hours and it would just be so easy and comfortable. I knew I had to see this girl and see if what I thought potentially was there. So I suggested and I didn't think she would entertain the idea. I said well, why don't come around mine do karaoke, have a karaoke night with few drinks. And she was keen for the idea and I just couldn't believe it. And that was my chance

Alex Melia 3:45

I'm really excited to hear what happened next. So she said yes, she wants to come to your place for karaoke. Tell us more.

Samuel 3:51

So a few months had passed a couple months passed since I saw her matter originally. And even though we had so much in common when you haven't seen someone for a couple of months I was I was like am I going to be still physically attractive because I only seen her once and you know when you haven't seen you only seen someone once although the the the talk and everything was great. But I remember she from Abell opened the door and like straight away I was like Yeah, yeah, the physical attraction is still definitely there. And it was such a great great feeling I guess because I knew I thought that would be the case but there was still a bit of doubt. So she came in we had we had pizza actually we got to take takeaway and then we had a few drinks just chat we were chatting and again, conversation flowed it was it was great was so comfortable. straightaway we were both really at ease which is great on a day and yeah after a few drinks I was like okay, we're going to do karaoke then it actually be fair, we were talking for a good couple of hours like we were it was getting quite late into the night and I didn't think we were maybe actually would do the carry Yeah, okay in the end after all the tour, but then we got it, we got it out and I mean I'm fairly confident person but even singing in front of people you don't really know it can be a bit bit daunting and a bit bit nerve wracking and it's a bit weird just being one on one but we had a few drinks so obviously like ease the nerves a little bit. But it was great. We both we sang so many songs, we did duets together. It was just a great, a great day. That was not your typical day. It might sound weird to a lot of people, but it was just fun. Like we didn't, we just had a lot of fun with it. And we were just so there was just this chemistry that straight away. I mean, when you sing with someone as well, like do duets and stuff, they were like funny songs we were doing and stuff as well. I remember she was she did a Whitney Houston song. I want to dance with someone. She's got a great voice. And I remember she sang that and I pretended to be a like hype man. And we'd like Come come up and go like dance when she was singing and stuff. And she like loved that. And it was little things like that little interactions we had throughout the night. Before we knew it was 4am. Obviously, the old cliche Time flies when you're having fun. It was like next year I was like God is four o'clock. We've been here for hours. By this point I hadn't kissed or anything like that. It was just like getting to know her and having fun with her. Anyway, I offered my spare room because I'm a gentleman. And I'll start from the from the get go to put her at ease. And she took it. And but just before we went to bed, I did lean in for a kiss. So we had a kiss and it was great. And that was it. She went to bed I went to bed. I remember I woke up the next morning. And I remember thinking that was a great night. And my own like self doubts like does she have a great night? Anyway, she walked to the bathroom while I was in bed. I was like, oh, did you sleep? Okay. And she's like, oh, yeah, fine. Thanks. I was like, I'm just about I've got I got up early to watch the Australian Open Tennis final. She was walking past and said, You're welcome to join in my bed if you want to watch it. Really didn't know what she was going to say at this point. And she's like, Yeah, okay, then she got into bed with me. And it was great. Again, we were just talking about anything and everything. We were obviously I was watching the tennis she was asking questions about getting involved in it just felt so like natural. And then we did like KEARSON we kiss we kissed a lot in the morning. Nothing more than that. Really. It was just yeah, a lot of kissing. And it was great. It was like I was like, wow, this is this. This has gone. Well. This has gone well as I kind of hoped really?

Alex Melia 7:43

What actually happened with Elise in the end? Are you together now? How is the relationship with you? And

Samuel 7:50

so after all, that initial greatness, I guess you can say no, we were not together. And it was it was actually very short lived. After that date. We were both basically saying how surprised you were how well we got on and how great it was. And I was really taken aback by that because I knew I felt that. But I wasn't sure what how she felt. So we kind of got a bit intense quite soon in terms of like, she was telling me, she told her mom how great I was and all this and that and we even it was very it was in jest but we joked about our her moving to my town because she obviously slipped out. And this was after that first day. And I was like wow. And I know it sounds cliche again, but I've people have always said or when you know, you know, and I've never had that never in my life. And I thought oh maybe this is it. Obviously it wasn't because we're not together but maybe I thought maybe that was it and I got all swept up in it. I was like wow, I'm really into this girl. She's really cool. She takes so many boxes. And so she's really into me as well and this is great. But after like a few weeks, it kind of just unraveled a bit. She got a bit flaky when it came to meeting up again. I got a bit agitated with it. I was like why we that I'm really into you really into me I didn't say to her but why it's almost like she was fighting it. It was like she didn't want it to progress and maybe I was coming on too strong but I was getting the signals off of that she was as well at the start so maybe I just got too carried away. And it was almost like yeah, she was fighting this. Like to make it go any further. It kind of all came to a heads when she basically canceled when we were raised again and then she just went a bit quiet on the text which is very unlike and I knew something was up and I kind of preempted it and just said Look you're obviously looking for this to kind of end like looking back on how I was stupid. I was lovestruck I guess you call it I was so I just wanted it To like, I was a bit of an impulsive person, I want it, I want it now I knew how I felt I knew how I thought I knew how she felt. And I didn't want to waste any time again, it maybe it comes back to the age aspect, I'm getting a bit older, I don't want to waste time, like that's, and I thought she was on the same page. And maybe she was at the start, and she'd got a bit scared. And that's what she kind of basically said in the end she, she gets a bit scared, and it's a bit full on. And in my head, I thought, okay, I get that. But the same time, you're not getting any younger. You're the same age as me like and if you feel you really believe what you've told me. Because she was. I know, it's kind of sounds like it's maybe a one way thing where I was really into her. But I had to like look back through messages. I was like, Oh, is this in my head? But I was like, No, like she's told me all this stuff. For me, I am kind of a bit of an all or nothing. If I like someone who I'm in someone, I'm like, Yeah, let's let's go for it. I'm just that's just kind of my personality. But it just doesn't happen very often for me that kind of thing. So I can understand it from her point, if that's not her thing. And it was a bit. Whoa, this is like a bit too, too too much where we're talking about things that we shouldn't probably be talking about. And it's getting a bit too intense, basically. And I was in a real rush to. And again, it probably goes back to the instability I had before and the maybe a bit of self doubt. And I was just like, I want to really get her get her to know me and basically fall in love with me kind of thing. And I was just sure. I don't meet girls like that all the time. I just don't I just don't have that connection. And that attraction, and all the coincidences and everything and so much in common, the fun we had and everything. But it was just cut so sure. Since then, we still talk. I know, she has this feeling were like me where it could have been should have been explored a bit more. But she's just his her personality. She's so again, I don't know, I don't know, as well. And I might be speaking out of turn, but for my opinion, a personality is so she wants to fight that feeling almost. She doesn't want to go along with it. She does want to maybe make yourself vulnerable. I don't know, maybe that's it. If it was explored and didn't work out fine. We could walk away and say, well, we gave it a go after such a strong start. But for me the overriding feeling is we didn't really give it a go. And maybe I'd take some blame for that for rushing it a bit maybe. And I think she would maybe take some blame for it. I would like to think

I'm wondering for you, when you've been in these sorts of situations, particularly with this girl, at least what you're talking about really wanted something to happen. And you had this self doubt. Do you think you were justified in having this self doubt because of the way that she was with her avoidant tendencies? Or do you just think that that's that was your self esteem issue at the time? Or is it a combination of the two?

I think it's a combination. I think it ordinarily years gone by when especially I was younger and stuff I would have wouldn't have the self doubt to start with. I don't think I was coming out of a relationship. You do carry a bit of doubt, don't you? But I think looking back on it, the way she interacted with me it did. It did definitely play into that. So I think it's a common combination of both who's probably not not her to blame, but it's her personality and the way yeah, the way she kind of gave me that self is really harsh to put that onto her. But yeah, it's just maybe the different personalities but again, it was part of me as well if I always think as well if I met her at any other time in my life if I met her now, if I met her eight Well, obviously before I met my ex I'm so sure it would have been different because I was a bit different then I probably was more stable place and everything like that. I I'm convinced and I think I've told her this as well when we've been chatting since since it happened I was I just met you're the completely wrong time really. But But having said that it she did play a part in that as well. So it wasn't just I can I can confidently say it wasn't just me. It's like like you were saying with avoidant personality is you all miss second guessing some times and maybe something happened in previous lives for like I didn't I knew her but I was scratching the surface. I didn't know know her know her. So I don't know, what's led it to be like that. And that's maybe just the way she is or maybe that's just the way she was with me. You just don't know. You just don't know.

I can relate to how frustrating it must be for you because you think to yourself, well, when am I going to meet someone like this? Again, these women don't grow on trees in terms of the fact that she is so in tune with everything that you do in your life, the approach that you have to live. You think to yourself, well, the pool of women is getting smaller and smaller as I develop personally in terms of knowing myself better knowing what I want in a woman, you know, you told me when we were traveling that you want to have kids, you want to get married. But these women, they're not they're not easy to find are there so I can see why you, you, I can see why you were quite full on. Because you just don't know when you're going to see someone like that, again, you want to show and signal your interest.

Exactly that. So I had the feeling at the time I remember I was almost like, I've been on a couple of dates since my ex but they were like one or two dates, and there was nothing there. Really, it was just just you know what dating is like. And I remember thinking, like, I can't see where my next relationship is coming from. But I had that feeling. And then someone like that came along. I was like, Okay, wow. And like you say you want to show you're interested. And it's psychology as well, you know, when you're not that interested, and you don't show it, and then the girl is so much more into you. Like if I played it like that, I think it would have gone different as well. But I just couldn't, couldn't help it. I just it was just couldn't help it. And it made me actually think as well. Oh, maybe I have done this to girls in the past. And like maybe that's something I need to reflect on. I always like to never lead someone on. But maybe I've been been a bit like avoidant or like, kept them guessing. And that's got them more into me. And I've kind of reflected on that since then, as well that maybe, maybe I shouldn't do that as much. As much as I wanted to tell her like, I liked her and wanted to speak to every day. Maybe if I just told myself and I remember a time telling myself, don't text her like, don't don't like be so keen. Like, keep a bit back. Again, but the flip side is you want to be yourself. You want to follow your your emotions, don't you? You want to be true to yourself. So it's this dating, though, isn't it? It's just it's just a it's just like one of those things. But yeah, I remember thinking, Where is my next relationship? I can't see anything on the horizon. And then that came along. And I was like, Okay, wow, that didn't work out. And you think

to yourself, as well, like the way that you said, the way I played it. So, you know, in your head, it's like a game or people call it the relationship game. And it's this sort of back and forth. And a lot of men, they're thinking about power and and thinking of control when they're thinking about interactions and the way that they are in relationships. And it's difficult, like you say, because you're really into this girl, but you don't want to show too much interest to the work to the point where she backs off. Because when I speak to women about the number one reason that they're turned off by men is when they are when men are needy or possessive or too full on or too intense that they really do pull back. I mean, this is some women because some women really like it, because it shows that you're into them. But then you get to the point that you know, I'm 36 You're 36 We're at that point in life where you don't want to play games anymore. You just want to be a man who is attracted to a woman and you want the natural order of things to play out not to have this okay. Well, I'll message her back two hours later, because she messaged me about two hours later. And you're kind of having this back and forth is like, well, it's just become a game now.

Exactly what I was thinking I I'm sorry, I'm, I'm old, too old playing games. I don't I don't want to do that. But one of texts, I'll tell you, I'm not going to wait a few hours and then like play it cool. But you're right, the firt the full on the full on does put a put a lot of people off, but I just thought at the start, she was a bit full on as well as some of the stuff she was saying. So I thought we were kind of on the same page. And then obviously, I maybe went that little bit further with it, I guess I don't know. And then she started pulling back. But yeah, you're you're right. It's like, I don't want to play these games anymore. I've done it. Okay, when you're in 20s In that year, you kind of expect it. But now you're like, No. And she actually said as well. She said look, loads of girls would would love that. But I'm just like, like you just said I'm just put off by a bit kind of thing. And also, the other thing was because we lived apart, it was a bit of a long distance wasn't even a relationship really with us. But there's a long distance interaction. So again, you want I wanted to give her a bit of reassurance as well that I'm not out dating other girls and stuff. I can invest it in, like just you like, and that's for me being single. That's quite a big thing. And we actually had a conversation again after thing after the first day. She was like, Well, I'm pausing my dating apps and stuff. I was okay, cool. Yeah, I'll do that as well. I'm not interested in speaking to anyone out so it was stuff like that. And I was like, wow, like girls sometimes get this impression me that I'm a bit of a like a player or something like that. And I didn't want her to think because we were living apart. I was doing that. So I was awesome. I'm trying to show her by being keen. I'm still into you, I'm into, you know, but backfired.

When you were telling me the story, initially, and I was taking the piss go and she's played you like an absolute fiddle me and we both had a laugh about it. But when we're talking about power and control, she is the one who is in the power position because she's calling the shots. And we've all been in that position where we've been in the power position. And this is, you know, you're not showing as much interest in your the person, you might not be replying or bringing them as much as you can feel the energy and generally are fine, maybe it's not always the case in reality, but there's always kind of one person who is not showing as much interest and they are kind of in more of the power position. So she was deciding when she was going to meet you. And it just meant that you were always in a very tough situation there where you don't want to be playing power games with people. And it's just a really tough one to swallow. Because like I said, I've been in that position myself previously. And you, you don't just forget these women, immediately, you're still thinking about them. You know, you might have a situation remember in being in the train station in Hong Kong years ago, when I was teaching out there. And I remember walking up the steps of this train station, and smelling the perfume of the girl that I wasn't seeing anymore. And it just created this sort of wistful nostalgia of this. She was amazing. And it could be anything, it could be listening to the there is a light that never goes out the Smiths again. Or it could be you see someone with a music lyric on their on their ankle, and it reminds you of her and you think ah just if only this would have worked out. So it's a really tough one because you can't just forget that person straight away because they've left an indelible mark on you.

Yeah, and I'll tell you what, that Whitney Houston so when I after that, I heard it all the time. And it was quite a popular song. But I heard it all the time. That always reminded me of her. And she sent me it when like a few months later, she was on in a club or somewhere and she was like, Oh, this song just come on. And we will do the same. Now there are aspects to it is and as much as I hate it is social media, like with we like obviously we follow each other on Instagram. And it's a real. I mean, as much as I hate it, I'm a hypocrite. So I'm on it, and she'll interact with stuff I post and then doesn't help. Doesn't help. But then like, she'll post something. I'm like, Oh, that's so cool. And like, we still kind of got that connection. And I know it's not good, because it's almost torture like, isn't it? It's just prolong, like, prolonging the agony. But anyway, it's good. So we can still have that little thing. And but yeah, this modern world, like you're talking about the perfume you're smelling. But if you want to get reminded by someone, you just got their bloody Instagram, social media, it's like right bang on your face. And like, it's gotten to the point where I think, god this is like this. So this is like a year now since that day. Since that karaoke date, so it's getting to the point now it's like, just just cut like I've deleted Instagram or delete her or something, you know, you don't want to I'm over it to the, to the extent where I'm obviously dating other girls and stuff. And I mean, I was do that straight away. But I mean, I'm, but I still think about her. Until I meet someone that has that impact. I think that's natural. It's like, it's like when you break up with your ex and you're not 100% sure until you meet that next person. And then you're like, right, yeah, that's sure. Like that's why it didn't work, you know. And I guess until I do get in a serious relationship with someone, which I haven't since they're not serious one then probably still at that doubt that that feet feelings still gonna linger a bit.

Samuel, my last question for you today is how have you changed as a man? And how do you view relationships moving forward from that experience?

I reflected a lot on that. And it's probably goes against a lot of what should be good and progressive, but I actually felt the way I was in that let's call it relationship wasn't relationship let's call it that. That I wasn't a man. Like what you would classify a man as in she had all the power like you said, I was I was opening my feelings, which years ago probably wouldn't have been and probably not quintessential what you would call a traditional masculine way of doing it. So I almost like when I was vulnerable, I was vulnerable. And so but then have I learned from that would I do anything different? I think obviously I would like to think I would do things different but that I'm that's who I am kind of thing and like we said some girls will like that. I like to think myself as well. Quite a lot. Now for me, I hate that term, but a confident man who usually is in control, I would say. But in that instance, I didn't have it, and I was vulnerable. And it kind of backfired. And that's probably the only time I've really felt like that.

Before I get started on my thoughts on today's episode with Samuel, I just want to say that Samuel isn't his real name. And I suppose it's reflective of men not wanting to reveal their vulnerability. When it comes to unrequited love. It must be so frustrating to wait your whole life for someone who literally ticks all the boxes you could have ever hoped for. And they don't want to proceed further. Is the ticking boxes thing, something that we're paying far too much attention to, which ultimately works against us. I've met people that say that their partner doesn't actually take as many boxes as they'd hoped. But they're still madly in love with each other. And the opposite has occurred as well, where someone literally ticks every box you could have hoped for. But there's just no chemistry, there's nothing that has no connection. I suppose as much as you want it to work. If the other person isn't willing to come some of the way. You have to let it go. At some point. We're often told in movies or TV, our friends telling us this, don't be so keen. But are we too focused on these games? I think I did this quite a lot in my early 20s. But after a while, it just felt like a massive waste of time and energy. After a while I just started to think to myself, well, if the other person likes you, they like you. And if they don't, they don't and you have to be able to accept that. This episode made me think that we've put far too much emphasis on superficial things that bonders whether it's film, TV, we love the same kinds of songs. We'd like the same kinds of sports, whatever it is. I've got mates who've said to me that if the girl is into the office, Alan Partridge peep show that they're a keeper. They're obviously nice things to share with loved ones, but are they a basis for a strong long term relationship? Is there such a thing as the one that we're constantly told in the media? For myself? I just don't think I paid too much attention to this. I believe that there's one of many and you just haven't met those people yet. It's a situational thing as well. Right Place Right Time. Will Samuel ever meet the one while the guy I know and have spent a lot of time with surely will