Welcome to the Hot Young Designers Club podcast. I'm Rebecca Plum, your big sister. And I'm Sean Serha, your GBF. We're not that hot or that young. But we believe it's a state of mind that helps us build adaptable and profitable businesses. We rely on the support of our design besties to get through each day. So let's explore the emotional, practical, and humorous sides of being interior designers. Welcome to the club. Hey, Sean. What's up, Rebecca? It is a pretty good day so far. I mean, I woke up, I'm here. I'm going to come across your head. Live in the dream. We won't say when we're recording this, but we did record where we did have a hottie hangout to this morning before we were before right now, which we do on Fridays once a month. And I don't know, anytime we have them, I just feel like it's like a good way to weekend and, and the week. I know it feels like a little download session with each other. It has the feeling of like, if you were to be able to create like a monthly coffee session with industry friends that you can kind of talk a little shit. Gossip a little bit. Yeah. Like get different like apps that we like. We always exchange different ideas like that. And it's like that. I don't know much about this, but like I saw this kind of stuff that you're like, I don't want to spend forever. Like, I'm not going to make a public call out for this somewhere, but I do want to just like ask a few people, have they heard about this stuff or like, do they know anything about a certain company? Like just feel, you know, put the feelers out a little bit. Yes. And our friend Claire recently in one of our Marco Polos was talking about how on some of the larger. Like Facebook groups, there's not a real sense of community necessarily. People are very helpful on those, but sometimes they don't always feel super safe. I've personally gotten into issues. With people that like are kind of cuckoo and you just feel like you don't want to be vulnerable on there because you don't, I don't know, not there to get hassled, like different parts of our journey. And like the whole, I just don't respond to the, like the, I'm calling it like naggy mom type of behavior sometimes where you're just like, hold on girl. Like you don't know me, you don't know my lived experiences. You don't know, you don't even know how long I've been in business. You don't know what I've done, but you're already jumping right to like. You should be doing this instead type of behavior, which is just like, I'm not in this Facebook group for you to like be providing me coaching. I'm you spell design with a Z. Not her, but yes, but yeah, like we talk about that, but we also talk about other like on topic conversations about solving problems in our businesses and process. And like. Sometimes looking for you to like, yeah, but like looking for you to be pushed. Like sometimes I want to be pushed into the, I think this is the way you could try something that would actually help you. And I'm here to tell you it actually works or it does help. So I like when it's a true other person that I known and the loyal hotties, we've now kind of developed that over the last year where it's like. I trust these designers so much now because we spend so much time talking with each other and messaging each other questions and like there's really like a sense that there is no judgment when we're bringing up a topic or something we're struggling with. And if there was an asshole that made their way in, like we would put a stop to that and that has not happened. No. So yeah, it's. It's been awesome. So anyway, that's our little push about Patreon. It's only 10 a month. We do those sessions once a month, like we said, but we also record them. So we have people internationally that aren't ever able to line up time zones. Oh yeah. Shout out Switzerland. Yeah, and they, like, we get good, like, notes and comments and stuff and people weigh in. And it has other exclusive episodes that we record that are, like, we're usually screen sharing in those Patreon episodes so we can, like, really show you, like, the stuff we're doing or, like, systems we're using and what we like or don't like, so. It's, I've, I've loved having the Patreon community and our loyal hotties. Like it's been really fun. And Sean just started secretly a Facebook group for Loyal Hotties only. It's, so, I guess that's now part of it. I am still at this juncture disabled from Facebook, so yes, it's Sean and his friends, Sean's Hotties. I, I was like, okay, I, we were gonna beta test this, so right now it is. It is just a group for loyal hotties. It is a closed group. So you have to be a member of the Patreon, but we're in there starting discussions and getting things moving. So yeah, there's, I've heard. It's great. One day Rebecca will have to like, Sean has been put. So this is like, maybe you were the one that hacked me. Cause Sean has been pushing for this Facebook group and I'm like, we cannot take on one more thing right now. And I don't think I can either, but I did it anyway, which is very, It's very on brand that I'm like, well, but the, you guys have like all been wanting to do it. So that's great. I know mom, we all wanted to go to Legoland and you're the only one who wants to just go to SeaWorld. Just go by yourself. We just want to go to, we're just going to Legoland. Dad's taking us to Legoland. Seriously, like this is actually my life now. So maybe I'll be there eventually, hopefully by the time you're hearing this. Yeah. Yeah. So, and then of course we have our shop. huntingdesignersclub. com that we spent months toiling over and are really excited about. So if you wanted. Check out any of the tools we've created. We've made them affordable and approachable. I know they're really, it's designed for various levels. Like I'm always excited when I read about designers who like message us and talk about some of them. And I'm like, fuck, this is like, this is a big shit designer. As far as I'm concerned, and I'm like, wait, so it always makes me excited. But there's also, I love knowing that there's designers who are starting out like how we were seven years ago or whatever. And like, Truly wish I had had some of this stuff when I first started and like, had to, we had to beta test it ourselves and create what was missing. Yeah, cause we couldn't find it. We couldn't find it or it existed, but it was. Your firstborn child to, to get it, which when you're first starting your business is insane. We had a quote from somebody once who said, if I could afford to buy that, then I wouldn't need it. Which I felt like really sums it up. Yes. Like, so that's where we're sort of like building from that with resources that will actually be helpful to you and quick to implement and. We're always open to, we've always been open to questions from designers. Like we get some DMs sometimes where they're like, this is what I'm struggling with. Is this the thing that will help with that? So we can't promise that like, we're not chat GPT, like an AI powered chat bot. But whenever we've had hotties reach out to us and say, is this the thing that will help me with that struggle? There have been times where I've said, actually, this is really meant for a different scale than where you're at. So we have been able to reply to hotties and email or in our DMS about some of the tools in our shop and the templates of like. The thing that you're saying isn't how this tool will help you sometimes, and then many times it does and it's great, but we're not shy to tell you, hey, that's not exactly this thing. That won't solve all your problems. Or what you want would take magic and witchcraft, which unfortunately, I'm still looking for. Bring me four sticks from a bog in Scotland and some eclipsed water. Solve my problems, please. I need that. And now for the show. Without further ado. Okay. So what are we talking about? I mean, the, the like bullet is people who are interested in switching one industry or career hopping into. Interior design and I feel like there was we get in our day to day lives and we've each had different conversations. I've done a couple of consultations over zoom with people. And I don't know where it feels hard right now to make it sunshine and rainbows for people. So we just wanted to not be poopooing it because we're obviously all still doing it. But there are some realities when, especially if you're like at a level of success in another industry. Yeah. Cause so kind of the background for this is that I just recently with it, like this week had a conversation with someone who, again, I love this person's really great. They're very smart. They're a really like well established in their industry. You said they were smart like five times. I honestly am so impressed by like the business acumen and the thoughtfulness of some people. Cause she's, yeah, like she's truly being very considerate of what she's doing. She's trying to develop a plan. I appreciate all of that, but also like her business mindset was just so sharp. And I have no doubt that. She could be successful moving into our industry. It's the, how do you do this? Because she's so well established and she was referred by. A really great past manager and friend of mine who was in the banking industry with me and I 100 like if this person said, I need you to talk to this person today, I would immediately say like, yes, every time because she'll she's very thoughtful about who she would ask me something or asking for favors. And I know there's a great intent behind it. When that past manager asked me, she works in executive coaching, like she's hired by. Corporations to be a private coach for their CEOs and CEOs and like they're not employed. She's not working for those companies and, you know, themselves. She's hired to just be almost like the corporate coach and therapist for their C suite people. So I trust her recommendation and. This person that I met with, she has been in her industry for so long, but knows that she's not passionate about it. And I think that's a common thread you and I both hear from people because we were in a similar space too. So I think there's a few things like you want to jump in the industry. Um, so we both did this. You know, mid career, like we weren't, you know, living in our parents basement, still like willing to work for peanuts, like we couldn't totally do that, but we both also had a level of safety net from partners, which I think is irresponsible when some designers say they just went out and did this without, you know, Admitting some of those resources. A hundred percent. Yeah. I think it's unfair and it's giving this like faux look at how easy it is to just hustle and bootstrap it. Like that is not bootstrapping it. No. Cause you have a fallback. I mean, I'm not saying that it was easy. Like it was stressful. It's still stressful to be honest, but I couldn't, I don't think I could have done what I did without him. Although I did do it in my first job. But I was able to do a side hustle. So in that instance, I'm on a first job when I went from corporate to my own company, freelance in graphic design, I wasn't partnered at all. I was totally single, had no savings or. Cushion and, but I side hustled it. So I basically work double and I was young and energetic. And you were like child free mortgage free. Yeah. So that like, I totally, I'm not saying that's a bad thing. I'm just saying like, no, my brain changes. You're a little bit like, okay, I could move in with my parents. I'm 30 years old, but I could do that. If you had to start over. Yeah. Yeah. I feel that. Yeah. But there are, I think a lot of designers who I see out in the world that are successful and like no shade to them, but they are living in a level of luxury already. It looked like to me a lot of times and are associated with a higher social, economical community, which I think helps tremendously. I, I agree. So if you don't, I couldn't do it. I couldn't have done it. Yeah. If you don't have that, I definitely think it's trickier, but not impossible. You just really have to be a hustler. Yeah. So like in this case, it's like someone leaving like an executive level role. I have to be honest, like, and I talked with her about this. I don't feel bad about saying it now, but I, I had to explain how there were there. It's very unlikely that she would be coming into. Any type of job in our industry, making anywhere comparable to what we are, what she's doing, especially if you don't want to operate a business, which kind of hurts. Angle, right? Yeah. And I think part of that is just part of what drove her decision to say that was the fact that she knows that she cannot go without an income. She's a single mom. Like she cannot not have an income. She has to have an income and there isn't the option to just make the leap. And I completely understand that. Like you don't have, there's when you are your own safety net, there is no way to handle that. Other than I've got to start somewhere with a significant salary that can support where I'm all, what I'm already having to do. Yeah. So I think there's two sides of this. If like getting into the industry, I think is one thing to get a job in the industry. I think we can touch on that, but then like getting into entrepreneurship in a new industry, like most designers have done it. Like we like almost every designer I know has done this. So I. For sure. I'm not saying it's not possible. And I think somebody who comes from an executive level, like it sounds like she exudes a lot of confidence and professionalism and the confidence, especially, I think you are somebody who can feel good about putting big numbers out right away. You can write, grow faster, way faster than I did. Yeah. So we're not all created equal in, And I think like the drawback is that many, many design firms who can afford to sort of like take a risk on someone with no experience in the industry or whatever they, I feel like it's hard in a very small firm to not be bringing as much experience. That's my perception. So to try to get a job, if you're somebody who's like, I don't want to start with my own business, I want to work for another designer. Yeah, like I would not as a small firm for me to be taking the risk to bringing on someone, they have to immediately start bringing skills to the table. Unfortunately, they can't be like, Learning they can't, I can't be teaching their CAD course to them in my, I can't be training that, or like, I can't teach customer service that you, that you've got to be bringing me stuff that you start running day one, like. I know we were having an internal chat about this and this happens a lot where people are hungry, they're willing to learn and they approach, I've gotten these emails, I'm willing to learn. And it's like, okay, but who's going to. Teach you and like I have to pay you to teach you. It's like a double dip on me because of your time, attention, expertise, intellect, all of that, plus money, plus money. So it's really a big. Ask if you're like a one man show, like if like I'm a one woman show and it's also not really fair because I mean, I tried to do this and it wasn't really fair to that person because I, I have too many hats to be that helpful. So I think there is a way to do it, but really you kind of have to be willing to literally do anything. Like your body is what you are giving up. Like you are the schlepper. You are the. Aaron runner, you are maybe the coffee getter and that sounds shitty, but like, that would be helpful to me. But me teaching you how to use chief architect is not helpful to me when I'm teaching. But like someone saying someone proactively saying, Rebecca, do you have lunch? Let you need to be fed. Like that would help you a lot as a business. Like Ainsley did when she was working with us. Like, yeah, like I'm ordering you. I'm ordering you a sandwich, like, let me take care of you a little bit. For sure. Let me make sure that you're, or like, Hey, I noticed in the email that client didn't get replied to yet. What can I, do you want me to call them? Can I schedule that phone call with you? Like, what do you want me to do? And I feel like that the, for me, people that I've talked to are often missing that when they say like, what can I do for you? Yeah. Like the what? And also what's in it for me is. Like I need to get something out of it for that exchange. That's just how it works. Like I don't sell my services for free to my clients. I can't offer. A design education for free to a potential employee or someone who's switching industries, although I'm willing to acknowledge that you have transferable skills, but I think that a lot of people haven't really inventoried their transferable skills. You really need to outline that, I think, and understand what they could possibly be. And so when I got my first. Internship. I was not getting paid and I was able to though convince them to let me shadow a couple of designers. And in exchange, my transferable skills were marketing and social media. And that was totally helpful to them. So, yeah, because it was something that they couldn't do or weren't doing on their own, and then you could help them with it. And then that became like a place where I was able to grow and learn for a bit, but then when, okay, I don't, I need to move past doing the marketing side of it. So, and then, and it was never supposed to be a long term thing. So that's one, a huge way to look at it. I think I've really like dig into what your skills are. I think maybe it's tricky, like ex banker. Like, I don't want to show you my finances, but you're the, if you're the new guy on the team, but you know what I mean? Yeah. But finding other, like there would be other skills that you would have that maybe I didn't, especially like around technology or like spreadsheets and presentations. Like there's a lot of things you might not realize are super helpful that a lot of people don't have. Yeah. Honestly, like if you said to me today, who would I think about bringing it? It'd be like, if someone showed up and they had a really awesome personal Instagram or a Tik TOK presence, I would let them handle a lot of stuff for me. The baby, not everything, but like, I'd be happy to let someone who has another skill come in and help me with something like that, that I am missing for my business. Or taking off of your plate. Taking off my plate something. A big thing for me personally, and I know this isn't just about me personally, but I, I need someone to help keep up with things tenaciously. Like, When you see that vendor order, is that going to arrive on time? And I do feel like there is a really big gap for people who are shifting industries of like, you don't, you don't come in with that. I'm going to observe mentality. And I do think a lot of people, when they make a switch, they're like, well, I need to observe first. And unfortunately, I think this is why so many of the job postings. For assistance and otherwise talk about being like being hungry, being what else to say, self, self starter and an ambitious self starter and what that, yeah, like, unfortunately, when I read that, what I'm, what I now understand is like that ambitious self starter is the person who will literally look at the pile of boxes and be like, I got it, I got the box cutter, I'm breaking them down. Like I, they're going in the recycle bin. No one's asking, no one is like waiting for you to, you're just jumping in. And I, I would say like, just, Hey, are these cool to go in the recycle bin? Oh, no, I need those for my vendor. We don't do that, but I don't want to sound like the whole, like. Nobody wants to work sitting on my hands and there's just like a pile of shit around me and that does happen where it's like I'm hustling around and then you're just like, why am I the one sweating? What are you doing? Like there have been stories of people that are like, Hey, can you stay and deal with the end of this? Photo shoot and pack everything up. And the staff member kind of, maybe they didn't say no, but they, their body said, no, Uhhuh, And the the other side of that is, well, then I'm, you want me to do it? That's so I, if you or me, and like, in this hierarchy, it should be you. Yeah. The, the, but I will do it. Like I, yeah, I do it. Like that's the, the like part of this is like the humble pie, unfortunately. Yeah. You have to be ready to do that. And I think, honestly, I, I think if we're being really fair, I don't think that most people are able. To separate themselves from their background and experience and all their extra skills in a multi level company that they have different people to do things like take out the trash, you're not used to doing the admin behaviors again. And you're like, I'm not an admin. It's like, okay, unfortunately here you are again. And I think that a lot of people who even I've talked to and otherwise, like, they're not really being fair with themselves. I'm not going to say to, it's not, it's not this one I just talked to, but some of the people I talked to, you can tell I leave those conversations. I'm like, they can't set their ego aside. Like they are not actually ready to do this. And unfortunately for them, the hard part is that like that, that gets that personality trait of theirs, that's like their pride or their ego or whatever it is, is in the way of them actually having a great learning experience and potentially making it faster for them to reach their own phase of entrepreneurship with a great knowledge and experience, but they let that get in the way of their growth. If their goal is to become an entrepreneur, like newsflash. You're going to do this all anyway, the full vertical, you are doing all of it, unless you are a very efficient, organized person with some amount of capital to start that you immediately can hire assistants and VAs and folks to do a lot of the stuff that you Is not in your pay grade, but I don't know. I don't. So that just feels like entrepreneurship maybe isn't right for that person. And working in a bigger firm where there are very clear roles and you know what your clear role is going into it. Yeah. Like this designer that I was talking to, like if she had entrepreneur or not designer, this woman who wants to get into design industry. I personally think that her biggest attribute and skill that she would be bringing to the industry is almost like a fractional COO for a company or like a business development person. Like the skill set that she can bring with like her sales background and her like, understanding of business acumen. Like that is really valuable to a lot of designers, but you'd have to find a design firm that's of a certain size that they can justify bringing someone in who's sort of. The, you know what she might be good at now that we're just like coaching this one person, I know a rep, I actually, I did bring that up actually, because that's another avenue to get into the industry and have a little bit more of like a systematized kind of, right, there's different types of, and it's sales based, but also relationship based. So I did bring up repping as like, there's reps, there's internal and external reps, but you're kind of locked in and you are having to be really tenacious for the revenue is what you make of it usually. Cause it's really mostly commission based or your market. Yeah. Like you could pop into a job that has just designers that are going to order from you no matter what. Right. Cause it's a good big company. Yeah. And I did bring up to her showroom. Like if you were a showroom rep or sales person, like at A design center or somewhere like she could probably easily handle, like working at a Schumacher or working on a fabric, like about what those roles are. Like, I don't know a lot about them, but like the idea of it being sort of semi retail, but very private retail and very service based and salesman based, like understanding your product and what, what you're doing. Like, I think her ability to solve problems and react in To, to the needs of a client are still there. But if you're going to switch industries, it's real for me. The hard sell is I've never been a designer, but I'm like DIYing my house or I did my own house and now I'm going to be a designer. And whenever I see that, I'm like, that's so cute. But like, The reality of how a working design firm operates is not like how your home remodel project went. There's so much more to it than just what you learned. No, it's just like a small aspect, but it might get, I mean, that's kind of how I started, although I had entrepreneurship of a creative company behind me. But so that gets your like passion, I think, activated, but. And like one check box, right? Yeah. Check, do you care about this? Yeah. Yeah. So it's not saying like, they won't be good designers or business owners, but they're not ready. But just that, yeah, you're not, I can't hand you a whole project right now. Even if you handled your own house, I, I'm not going to be as a principal able to hand that over. I don't think most people are going to want to start over as an assistant. I know that is like, I mean, I think that's really the back to the humble part that you and I both did. And I mean, I did my free fucking internship at 42 years old. Like not for 15 an hour, but that's California minimum. So that's the internship role was like very, like, Okay, we want you to do they basically they had to pay me because some of the stuff I would be doing doesn't fall under the rules for what can be done for a free internship in California under the labor laws. So it was like, well, we want you to do that stuff. So we're paying you that we're paying you 15. I mean, I learned a ton from that and I. I'm totally grateful for the experience. So, but it like the biggest hit was to my ego, like I'm really doing this, but if you're not willing to like try and see, but also again, I had a partner who I could kind of coattail for a bit. Yeah. You had a little bit of a buffer. A little, and I gave myself time, like a tie. We had agreed on a timeframe of. Me figuring some stuff out. So other people I've talked with, I generally, like genuinely, I don't believe anybody is like, I just want to come somewhere and get a paycheck. I've never had that vibe, but where they're missing the salesmanship of it is like, they don't have their elevator pitch ready of like the, this is what I can bring to you. In exchange for just being very hardworking, willing to get dirty. I will get in the trenches with you, but this is the other stuff I'm good at. Do you need those things? Cause I just see a lot of people approaching it as like, this is what I can do, but not. Is this what you need? Because it's about the fit, like the marketing skills. What if that, the place you interned already had a team who was more skilled at that than you? It's like, then, or where they were paying them to do it. Yeah. Why would we hire you stepping on toes? For sure. Yeah. I think, yeah, because it does come down to like, if I am a Small operator, which I am, and I don't always have time to train you on every single thing. What are you going to do in those hours? Like, I'm, I mean, I'll admit, like, I'm not probably the greatest manager because I don't have processes set up for this, but like the what, what should I do next stresses me out to no end. Yeah. And now what can I work on? You're like, well, my eyes are so big. If I can think of something that I don't have to. Tell you about how to do it, then I will tell you, but I don't think you're going to want to do my target returns. I mean, I just think, okay. So if you're practical and I've told this to people, like, honestly, I would, if I were you get some sort of training, at least in some software, like if you take some. Courses. There's plenty of courses on SketchUp or CAD or chief architect, and you can come with some sort of knowledge that you did on your own. That would be really helpful. Yeah. And I, I know some designers are willing to train people and or pay for the training, but I feel like that's more of lateral moves. Like if you started as an admin and I love you and I want to continue to help you. Then maybe I would do that, but like, yeah, I don't know you or your work ethic. Like I am not prepared to invest time and money for you to learn what I had to learn on my own. I don't know. This is my gen X coming out, but Yeah, so I don't mind if I have to train someone on something, if I'm still getting something else, I'd have to do not as much want to train someone on CAD? I personally don't, but that doesn't mean that, I know other firms where the person is like, doesn't know it and they're like, helping them get through it and they get better at it, but like. But they had other things that they brought to the table in the meantime. Totally. If they were, honestly, for me personally, this is just like, what do I look for? I truly want someone. Who need, like, this is my big thing, needs to work. I don't want, like, I need this job. I need my income. I need my revenue. I need my billables. I need this. My life, my life doesn't depend on it, but like my lifestyle and my, for my survival economically depends on this job. And when other people are going into it and it's just like, Oh, this is cute. Like I work at a little boutique one day a week and I sell candles like, and that they don't need it because their husband's rich or whatever, or like what all, who knows what that is. That's not who I personally want to hire because. You, when I really need you, you're like, Oh shoot, I'm at a big soccer camp or big ski week with my kids that week. And it's like, okay, girl, like go get, get out. Like, I'm not gonna, it's not, I'm running a design company, not a prison. So go, but like, also that's not helping my business grow. If you don't need to be here, I kind of don't want you to be here. And I do think there's those people who are like, I want to join your industry, but only when it's convenient. It's like, I'm sorry. That's not here. Like, go work at the I only want to do the cute stuff. Go work at the Newport Beach Amber Lewis store for, for one day a week. But don't be trying to come in, like, help me do my client projects, but yet you won't be here for my presentations, or you won't be here to answer the phone, or Or you won't be here to help clean up the photo shoot, like Yeah, yeah. Or I need you to go to FedEx and grab the packages that they've been leaving the hanger on my door all week. Like, I need that kind of stuff. So, for me, I want people who want and need the work. Like, not an option, not just like a, I'm doing this for funsies. Right. Yeah. I'm going to opt out of that task. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, I'm sorry. I'm busy that day. It's like, oh cute. I wish I could say that. I'm busy doing my job that day. Like, I'm not saying work all day. And don't make, like, I'm not saying don't make a living wage. I'm not saying any of that, but for me, I don't want someone who just wants to dip their toes in it. Well, you need to be like, like if this person's rely, it's basically, are they reliable, are they reliable and why bother training someone if they're not really gonna like help pay back that investment by being there when you need them, like, what's the point then? So for me, I want that. I also, I don't want to teach someone CAD. But I also need people who are 100 percent confident in being able to answer a phone and make a phone call. And they, when I say, call that client and schedule a meeting for this, I want to know that that is, they will pick up the phone, they will be professional, they know how to, like, handle themselves on a call, and I can't teach phone etiquette. Because I've had the, unfortunately I have had the intern who was like on the phone with the vendor. What do they do with this? Oh, they're asking about, no, I don't need to play speakerphone with them. Like you need to have, I can't dial the phone for me. Yeah. Like, yeah. Like, can you hold the phone up to my face while I'm like, no, that's not what I need. I need someone who will do it separately from me. And can write an email professionally and can like, figure it out and if they have questions say, okay, all right, let me write all this down and I'll get back to you exactly and that I can't, I can't. I could teach it. I'm not going to know. I mean, there is like, can you tap dance when you need to? Can you fake it a little bit just to be professional? And like, not everyone's going to have all the answers. And some is like, you have to figure it out. But I agree. I mean, you're definitely like, like, I don't pick up the phone and just call a client out of the blue, unless like I really needed to, because they hadn't responded to stuff on email. But, um, Definitely vendors like I've had people in the office who don't want to like you have to call a freight company like They don't never like, there's just a lot of circumstances where there's some, some types of businesses in our industry that they are old school or they're in a warehouse or not on a computer all the time. Contractors subs, like I talk out to my, to contractors on the phone more than anything else. So, that's hard for you. That's going to be hard. It's gonna, it's only going to get worse. Like, that, that's something for me, like, I would rather outsource CAD if I had to than train someone on CAD or SketchUp or Chief. Like, I'm not going to teach you if you don't know that. I'm not going to, and then I'm not even an expert. So like, I'm not maybe going to teach you right. Like, what? Fair. Fair. What, what I would add to that also is that in general, there's going to be a limit to how much you can be helpful if you don't get those skills that are important to that company, and eventually you might find yourself phased out of something. So if you want to be in an industry and join it, you do have to sort of entrench yourself in it and make sure that you have the security that you're, that you are losing by leaving that other industry. And I don't know that a lot of people are prepared to jump themselves in that deep to something of they're like, I'm going to make myself indispensable, like one way or another, I'm going to be the most useful. And if that means I have to learn my trade, that's what that means. Like, you have to get in deep. Yeah, commit. And I just think, like, overall, just if you're considering this, just like, I'm sure you're asking yourself a lot of questions, but every industry is hard. I don't know. Sometimes I'm just like work is called work because it's work, you know, like there's a level of stress no matter what it is. So we're here like kind of being negative Nellies because. We're in the pain of it, but sometimes it's just like you fantasize about that. Ooh, could I just like cut a nice paycheck and work for an office again? And just like not have anxiety. I don't know. I mean, we're not the only designers asking that question, so I definitely don't want to pretend. I do start a lot of conversations with people. If I'm like, just so you know. This isn't like sunshine and unicorns over here, like it's stressful. The same Texas, it's demanding. This ain't Texas. Yeah, it's demanding. It's tiring. You invest a lot of yourself in it and emotionally there's an exchange that comes with creativity and all of that. Like that is something that can be hard to work through and I don't, I just don't think that a lot of people are ready for what that means, like. How much we as principals, especially invest in our businesses, emotionally and financially, and. It's very hard when you come from another industry when, like, literally I'm like, do I really need to order a whole box of 11 by 17 presentation paper because that's kind of like wasteful of my resources or can I just have two reams of it in the office and like I look at, like, I'm not going to waste a bunch of my company resources on something. And then you worked in a corporate environment, especially like a big environment and they're just like, oops, I accidentally pushed a hundred instead of 10 and you're, but for me, yeah, like, but for me, no, those things matter at the stage of like where I choose to invest my money. And when you come from that school of thought of like, well, it's just a couple thousand dollars. No, ma'am. It's not just that when you're running a business and looking at your efficiency quotients and looking at every billable hour and your markup. That just came out of my paycheck. Thanks. Yeah. So I do. I know that that makes it hard, but if you're going to leave. Another industry and come here, you gotta, like, you're probably going to need to join something. Like I go to IDS events maybe, or like network more show up at industry stuff. Like go to the stuff and like, try to talk to other designers and maybe do like your market research of, Hey, they might not be hiring, but what do they need and figure out what is the thing that you already have, don't try to sell something you can't do or don't already do. Cause that's going to come out real quick when you start having to do the job. But like, Tailor what you're trying to pitch in a resume or in an informational interview or something to what actually benefits. And kind of like the hit the ground running stuff. Like what can I do? On the first day that will be helpful and does not require extensive training. You're going to get trained. I mean, don't listen to me. Like most people will train you or have like a process document ready to go. Like I'm slowly developing them, but yeah. So there's things that you can, you need to have, I think, something pretty ready. Yeah. Like you're looking at a small micro business. I told this person that I talked to, I'm like, if you could bring a case study about how you. Increased profit margin and it's some, and it's something that could be easily like paralleled to the design industry. I was like, sell that because if you can make me more profit, I'm interested. I want to hear more if you are working for yourself. Yeah. Like tell me how you're going to pay for yourself or. For example, like I was telling her, I'm like, I don't know if you want to keep doing this, but a lot of designers are not great at HR and, and, and team management and process creation. Oh, they're terrible. Many of them. So I was like, if you, if that's something you could do, want to do and would be good at, or have done it. Change management and business development, all that stuff is very valuable for a creative based industry where they don't want to do that. But when we were talking with, I was talking with Claire, our friend Claire about this. She was like, but do they want to do that? And that is probably the final question to wrap this up is if you're leaving the industry, what do you actually want to be doing one day? Right. Because when I did the internship and was doing the marketing and social media, that's the industry I had left. So I used it as a way to kind of get my toe in, but. I had to transition back out of it. So there's going to be different scenarios about that. But yeah, you don't want to be leaving one thing and then be doing it somewhere else. Possibly. So know what your goals really are. Yeah. Like if she was like, I actually hate the HR part of my job. I'm like, okay, then don't pitch that. And also don't apply for jobs where it's like, you're the office manager. All the employees report to you. Sorry. Like that's, you're going to be doing that. You're not going to get into being a designer and you're going to piss that owner off if you try to, and I did relate to that person that I was like, if your goal is to be a senior designer, you're not going to get there by going into it. You're less likely to go into that after being an office manager or a business development officer or COO, like. If you're firmly starting in that place, that designer will have to love the shit out of you to want to train you to be a senior designer and lose you from that other value. If you're really doing that other job well. Okay, so like if that was me and I Um, somebody who tries to be creative, maybe I would be very open with this designer and be like, Hey, if this is a part, this is part of your business that is weak and you don't have established processes in HR, I will spend the next six months getting your systems up. Developing this program for your company in exchange. Can I start training and moving over into the design that I would totally think about it that like, as long as it's like a very open and you're in a trusting situation and you're not going to leave anybody high and dry, I think that could totally work. You just have to find the right fit and And I sell it and part of that to me comes back to like the tenacity of it again is like no one's going to hand that plan to you, you have to develop it and figure out how you're going to do it if that's the thing you really want because I'm the principal, I'm not going to tell you how to make up that transfer plan and I don't know what you can do. Yeah, yeah. Like, I mean, that. Back to my very first transition out of my corporate job into my independent graphic design. I, the way I really did that was I pitched when I quit, I gave notice and said, I know this is going to leave you guys in a lurch. So how about I work as a contractor for six months, part time. So I negotiated my way out of that job as a way to slowly like change to like ratchet it down. Yeah. And that. Totally worked. And you had to do it though. But it was never, I was the only person who would have pulled that off, I think. But it was also a time in the business where that my department was, it was just me and maybe one other person and I had been there for a really long time. So, you know, like you just have to kind of get creative. Yeah. It takes a lot of work. This it's really like, I don't want to say this, like, I don't want everyone, if you're listening to leave and think, Oh my God, I shouldn't do it. I just, the hard part is that. It really does require so much conviction and like, sometimes the passion runs out faster than the conviction. Does that make sense? Well, yeah. Like how much you love interior design that tank sort starts to run dry. I mean, it's the same in a love relationship. If you're trying to have a lifelong relationship based on the feelings you had in the first three months. It's not probably going to work. Yeah. The, the newlywed type of that, like fresh relationship, lust, that will not sustain you for a 60 year relationship. No, you need a lot of other things to make that work. And so I think that's the same in design personally, is that like, if you're looking to switch industries, you're going to need to bring a lot of conviction and really know what your selling points are. And then check those selling points against what designers actually need, because you might think it's something they need, but it doesn't fit with their business at the time or the size of their business. And so you are hunting a little bit of a perfect fit. The fit for sure. And I was going to say, hopefully this just makes you put your, let me put their hat on. Like you should be thinking of what their pain points are. And if you do want to pick someone's brain, you can't a lot of designers. I, I do them. Sean does them. A lot of designers on the expert do them where you can pay to get consulted, take consultative advice because it's. I don't really want to grab coffee with anyone anymore for that. I mean, it sounds shitty, but like, I really just don't have time. Yeah. For me, I would not again, asking my time for benefiting only you like. And we're, no, it's not being rude because like, I barely have time to like, even pick my nephew up early from school from daycare. Some days, like I would love to be able to have more of that. I literally don't eat lunch most days. So it's not cause I'm trying to be hustle mentality. It's just like, it's just doesn't happen. So, and unfortunately these conversations don't lend themselves to quick exchanges. So that's the difference between like. If another working designer reaches out to me and says, I'm looking to do something like this. Do you know an upholsterer who can do it? I can answer that quickly with their knowledge because we're speaking a similar language on something most of the time, but this is a different type. Like you're looking for a career coaching. There's so many dependencies and like intricacies to this that it's not just a 15 minute, truly grab a coffee, 15 minutes, like there where you're looking for an hour or more. I wouldn't, I don't offer that for just anybody. And I have encouraged people to book my own like Rennstead virtual consultations to talk about that stuff more. To me, this is where I get kind of bitchy about it. If you're not willing to pay me for my time to give you that, then you're not really, to me, you're not really serious. Because if it was, if your dream is not worth even a couple hundred bucks, then what are we talking about here? And like, it also is kind of just an indoctrination into what our business is like. I mean, it's very much like service first pay by the hour. I thought, you know what? We're like, we're like those little, no. Oh no. Well, maybe that was that elevated it more. I was imagining those little coin operated horsey carousels at the front of like, Oh, when you said that, I thought you were going to say like motel room beds. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. I'll shake my heart shaped bed for quarters. Like, no, but I bet more like. Okay, here, monkey, here's your 25 cents. And then it's just like starting out with the starting transaction with respect. Like And most designers are going to feel that way. So maybe not. I don't know. Maybe a little more generous or like, I mean, I could see, I think we've talked about this before having like an office hour. If you do feel like you want to mentor and give back in that way, I think there's ways to do it as if you're a working designer and have like one month. One hour a month. I'm going to have an office hours, pen and coffee session with somebody. I think there's ways to be generous with your time for sure. But I, it's just hard right now. I think hard for, I think hard for everybody though. I don't think that's just you and me. I think that's a lot of designers. Probably. I mean, those expert sessions, like, I mean, you could get access to some really great designers on there. They charge for that more than. Yeah. Uh, man, well, okay, so don't ask us any questions if you have any, but this is just this episode, sorry, y'all just kidding. We have also a, for the newbies episode that we did earlier this year, if you're in that realm and all of our old back process party episodes, I think are good to listen to, to kind of give you. A peek into this nitty gritty stuff that we talk about. Yeah. There's a lot. If you want to be an entrepreneur. If you do, I don't know that everybody does. No, some days, maybe not even us. Okay. Well, hope it's helpful. If you're listening to this episode, you're thinking about an industry shift. Get out there, do your research. Really? If you do have a comment or question, send us DMS or post on Instagram. Like we do want to talk to you. I mean, yeah, tell us something at least. But. Yeah, we want to know more. Okay. Ciao. Okay. Do it. No, you do it. Until next time. Stay hot designers. Thanks for listening to the hot young designers club podcast. For more on what we talked about today, check out the show notes. Your support helps us grow. So share with your design besties and subscribe and leave a review on Apple podcasts. Our conversations continue on Instagram and be sure to download our monthly resources on our website and our Patreon.