Stephen De Silva: Purpose is not the top floor or the key to a life well

lived There's one layer above it.

And that's identity.

We need to know who we are.

And there's only two choices.

You're either.

adopted or you're orphaned.

You're either comfortable in your own skin or you're not.

You either belong or you don't.

And once we fundamentally understand that in context of God, then our

purpose, vision, and strategies and tactics flow from that.

In a world where financial challenges often lead to spiritual

and emotional strain, how can we navigate our finances in a way that

aligns with both our values And our aspirations today on seat, go create.

We're diving deep into the intersection of faith and finances with Steven

De Silva, the visionary founder of Prosperous Soul with a rich background

in accounting and a transformative career shift from traditional CPA.

To the chief financial officer at Bethel in Redding, California,

Stephen has experienced firsthand the dynamics between spontaneous

fate and practical financial demands.

We'll probably have fun with those conversations.

Stephen's journey has led him to create prosperous soul ministries.

A unique financial program inspired by biblical principles aimed

at eradicating poverty, greed, confusion, and fear surrounding money.

Through tools like Financial Sozo, Purpose Train, and Prosper Soul, he empowers

individuals, families, and organizations to transition from financial disease to

health, ensuring their monetary decisions enhance their spiritual well being.

Stephen, welcome to SeatGoCreate.

Stephen De Silva: Thank you so much for having me, Tim.

It's great to be here.

I'm

I'm glad you're here, and this is a bit of a reconnection for us

because we have spoken before, and I've been through one of your Zozo sessions.

We'll talk about that later, but let's do this first.

If someone just meets you, you're on a plane or something, and they ask you

what you do, what do you tell them?

Stephen De Silva: Well, in my mind, I tell them I try to do as little as

possible, but on the outside, I tell them I am a recovering accountant who

helps people heal their financial wounds.

Why would a count it need to recover?

What would a count it need to recover from?

Stephen De Silva: Well, I I often went to training.

It's funny.

I get this picture of walking into some, you know, income tax training

or some auditing training event.

And there's two or 300 people like me in there.

And I realized, Oh, my gosh, this is not my tribe.

I'm surrounded by accounting nerds.

And although I was one, I think it was an adapted lifestyle.

I picked up, I picked up this career to make ends meet and I, I enjoy it, enjoyed

accounting and being an accountant and a CPA, but, I'm a much more creative

individual, so accountants tend not to be creative or have much of a personality.

So I like to tease that that part of my brain had to grow back after the career.

So then, so, so, so this is the curiosity in me that

I'm always fascinated by, why did you go into it in the first place?

Was it, that's where you thought some money was, this is going

to, this is probably going to get our money conversation started.

Did you think

that's what you needed to do to bring in money into the account?

Did, did, were you groomed to be an accountant?

Why, why did you become an accountant in the first place?

Stephen De Silva: Oh, that, wow.

That's a great question.

I.

I can remember I was, actually I was on a, mechanic track in those days.

So I was probably, I worked in a Honda motorcycle shop from

maybe age 15 until probably 17.

And I planned to go on with my career in mechanics.

And, what happened is I met this beautiful woman who I'm still married to.

And she was on a education path.

She's brilliant.

I'm not sure how she succumbed to marry me, but I'm so glad that happened.

And, she was on her way to college.

So I thought, well, I guess I could try college.

So to my surprise in the basic classes, I took a basic accounting

class and I really liked it.

I thought.

Oh, my gosh.

I didn't think I had enough brains to do this.

And, it was so exciting for me to realize I might actually be able to be

a professional more than, a blue collar.

Maybe I could be a an expert in something.

Anyway, I was so, I had a real poverty mindset in those days.

Just, I could never imagine being anything more than a mechanic.

And so this was a real journey that stretched me and that's how I ended

up in accounting and I went on and.

Kept taking classes and kept doing well.

And, the rest is history.

Yeah.

It's interesting.

There's so many great stories that start with something like, I met a

girl, there was this woman and, and you know, especially people in the

spiritual arena where we like to say, Oh God did this and all that.

I'm pretty sure, gosh, I hope this isn't blasphemous, pretty sure

God says, all right, for Steven and Tim and probably, you know,

80 percent of the guys out there.

I am going to send a woman into his path to get him going where he needs to go.

Is that, I don't know, we're not gonna make a doctrine out of

that, but does that make sense?

Stephen De Silva: Oh, it totally does.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I, I, ended up realizing later I married a really powerful

woman and, that called me up.

I, I, I spoke a message years ago.

I don't remember the title exactly, but it was about being married

to a woman who is like a kite.

And I'm holding the string, and she's burning my hands.

The string whipping through my fingers is burning my hands, and I'm

asking God, Do I let go or do I hold?

And his answer was, you need to grow.

Oh, I can't hold her back.

So, you know, I have, I, I have many positive things I would say about my wife.

She's, she's obviously not perfect, but she is perfect for me.

And I give great gratitude to God for that.

It's, it is a gift in our lives.

Our wives.

Yeah.

Yeah, I I totally agree.

And, you brought up that you.

Had a poverty mindset, which leads into really our big topic.

We've got some big topics and then I've got some more micro topics

that I want us to discuss today.

If we are able to stay on track and, you know, let the Holy Spirit take us all over

the place, which we're open to that truth truthfully, by the way, but I believe,

I believe, we're going to be guided.

And you mentioned poverty mindset and you know, I do want to say

that being a mechanic, you know, my, my grandfather was a mechanic.

My dad was a mechanic.

I didn't get that type skill, but I, I've always considered there to

be an art and a creativeness to that ability, but our culture and our society

doesn't really put them in high regard.

I just, I think I saw a headline recently where plumbers are like the

new, you know, Wealth creation because we're in such shortage of people that

are doing things with their hands.

But back up

and tell me about how in this, I don't think this will be like a, you know,

bash our parents or anything like that.

But how, how did you develop the poverty mindset?

Where were you at spiritually and all that kind of stuff?

Maybe when you got to that collegiate level and the Lord started working with

you on things, because I, you and I were talking right before we hit, Hit

record about just people now and some of the struggles they may be going

through just with practical finance.

Just the Babylonian go ahead and throw it out here.

You know, the Babylonian system financial structure is really challenged right now.

So.

Anyway, that's a big question, but go back and tell me what was going

on with that poverty mindset with Stephen, you know, back the early years.

Stephen De Silva: Wow.

Well, I, I have to say the mechanics is an art.

So my, my context was.

Growing up on as a boy on a ranch, and I worked with my uncle who ran the ranch.

And when you're an independent rancher, you have to solve every problem possible.

I remember as I got old enough to realize how brilliant my uncle was

from how much seed to sow in the ground to what's wrong with this garden.

You know, this cow and what vaccination to use and how to administer it.

I mean, it was staggering to me to realize how much he knew.

And, the, to the, to the poverty question.

In that environment, there was constant limitations.

So I grew up in an environment of the answer was likely no.

There was never, you know, if, if positive things happened, praise

the Lord, an accident just happened.

You know, our beef prices were good the day we went to auction or, the

rains didn't come when we had the tractor in the field or, you know,

whatever the circumstance, it was, accidental if something good happened.

So my, my paradigm, and I don't need to put my family under the,

under the bus for this because it, it really wasn't their fault.

I took ideas, and I think we all do this.

We, we experience the world and we sort.

I've decided it's the soul part of us.

body, soul, spirit.

It's the soul's function to sort through all the noise coming at us constantly,

especially when we're tiny and young, sort through and find something

that's true and, and place that in our heart as a treasure item for us

to hold onto because those treasures are how we make sense of the world.

And when you're constantly facing now, this is back to me as a child, when it's

constantly, it's basically no, you know, is there, you know, can I go to town?

No.

Can I have that comic book?

No.

can I, you know, whatever.

with limitations, my answers was, were no.

So my truth became, let's not disappoint myself.

Let's just expect lack.

and so that, that was a idea that landed, that I planted in my heart.

I believed it to be true, and it actually helped me.

It protected me from something, disappointment.

Of course, the nature of that idea operates like a seed and

grows, and then you later see Oh, that was a thorn bush I planted.

I thought this idea was good and rich and going to protect me.

It turned out to be actually a very prickly problem.

And that's, that's where some of my other tools come in is sorting what

we believe between what's really true.

I call it capital T truth.

And what's experiential and sometimes just not sufficient to carry responsibility

or burden or wealth or dreams or, you know, all the things that we carry

as adults, they have a burden or a weight and little t truths like my

idea I just gave is it's insufficient to carry the burden of responsibility.

So how does that impact your relationship with

God, with your heavenly father?

If you are constantly, if if there's lack, if, if you're avoiding disappointment, my

wife and I've had this discussion recently and we realized she probably was raised

because of some things in her family.

She had a sibling that died when she was eight.

She had her family divorce and, and, and we've kind of discussed this.

We've been together 35 years and she still somewhat works with this aspect of

She's afraid she may be disappointed and she's realizing that has relationship

with her heavenly father's relationship.

How did, how did

that manifest or what, what did that do for you?

Stephen De Silva: wow.

I, I think the answer probably is best explained.

I had a, an old version and a newer version.

my older version, my first version was, a, a paradigm about God.

Now, when I was a child, I wasn't raised.

with any theology or, or reference to God, except, Oh God help.

Or, you know, some certain phrase I would not want to repeat here, but it wasn't,

I wasn't in a Christian environment or any faith environment at all.

and so as I later became, I became a Christian when I was 16

because of a crisis in my life.

And so I worked through that scenario.

and began a life of faith as a young adult.

And until that time, and probably into my, to be honest, I'd say probably into

my thirties, maybe my early thirties.

I, my reference from that lack is I, I protected myself from disappointment.

I look back now and I realized there was a gap.

I perceived a gap between myself, And God, I could worship God.

I could understand that God is, is good and is love.

And I can, you know, intellectually agree to all of those things.

But he wasn't safe.

There was, there was this gap of like a bumper of protection.

And so to your question, that's one of the outcomes of my little tea

truth is I assembled a theology that just isn't biblically accurate, but

it was functionally powerful for me.

It kept me safe.

And, of course there are some problems when you have that gap that

we can talk about if you care to.

But.

I, I would say that's when I learned the transition.

I realized, Oh, that is actually not working for me.

And that's when I began to understand more about adoption and identity and purpose

and some of the things that we may get to,

Yeah, absolutely.

Is it, is, is what happened at 16 something you can share?

We don't, we, we, we, we go deep here pretty quickly.

Is it something that's shareable or, or what happened at 16?

Stephen De Silva: you know, I can share.

Um, so I was the, I was with some boys we were, so I was not a bad kid, but I was.

a bit wild.

Um, and, and consequently me and some friends were out just

being friends and goofing off.

And I was, 16 at the time, a late 15, late age 15.

And, we, we were goofing around and I ended up finding a handgun

and showing off with the handgun.

And I ended up shooting one of the two boys.

So, the boy that was shot was a beautiful person.

Just, you know, just thinking it recently, I've been thinking about him.

I really regret now in my lifetime.

Of course, then it was an absolute terrible crisis, the worst hell I've ever

gone through because that boy perished.

He died from that.

And, I was responsible, you know, there's, I mean, I didn't, obviously it

was an accident, a gross, gross error.

And I, I have a lot of stories about how God, I didn't even know God at the time,

but he walked me through that horror.

And I believe and pray that God walked the family through the horror.

So that's, that was the terror.

I, went through this by the time I was, had had my birthday and was early age 16.

I, learned that the boy that was killed.

Had just given his heart to Christ and I was like, what what is that?

What does that mean?

The person that told me her name's Patty.

She's a to this day.

It's just a dear dear friend of mine and Childhood friend and so yeah, she

she taught me about the gospel in I'm sure her young And in my crisis, I

gobbled that up with the hope that I get to see this friend again in heaven.

so that there's a Psalm of David, I think it's Psalm 32 where he, he says that

a contrite heart God will not despise.

And.

Unfortunately, I learned the lessons of a contrite heart early in my life.

I guess It was good for me.

It was terrible in circumstances, you know, I

Yeah,

those are, those are the situations I appreciate you sharing that.

And, and I, I think, We become a product.

I think it impacts our soul.

I mean, something you just brought up, you know, we're talking

about the prosperous soul here.

And, and I'm sure that's something that was damaging to your soul in many

ways, but yet it also was part of the.

The process that we're going through.

I mean, and, and so your, your, your process continued on.

And so if I'm understanding correctly, so from there you decided later to, you

know, not become a mechanic, you went to accounting and you went into what

many would Say, I guess, traditional accounting world after that it, and here's

what I'd love for you to, if you want to say anything about that, but at some

point, Steven ended up in the spiritual environment that is, that is Bethel.

Which is supernatural.

It's kind of the opposite of mechanics and, and accounting.

See you.

And so I don't want to spend a lot of time on it because, but I think this

might be part of the prosperous soul, because that does not sound like someone

who's going to teach on the prosperous soul at age 16 or even early on.

So how, what, what happened along the way that you ended up moving

from regular accounting to.

In the Bethel world of supernatural, that's, you know, signs and miracles,

which is not really where an accountant would typically end up.

Stephen De Silva: Well, yeah, that's, that's, you're spanning a lot of years

there, coming out of that tragedy.

my spirit was broken.

I think that would probably be the soul damage that you're referring to.

My spirit was broken and I had to learn, relearn myself.

What is it like to live as a broken spirit?

out of that, obviously my life changed.

I was still in high school.

I navigated those last few years and I graduated from high school thinking,

okay, I'm just going to go be a mechanic, go quietly, do what I can naturally do.

I did think, you know, I'm grateful to God.

I did have a, a aptitude for that.

but I thought I'll just kind of disappear into that space.

Around that time, I met, my wife and, she was college bound and

she had some, academic ambitions.

And so I, I thought, well, that's interesting.

And that part I told you about in the beginning.

So I started through the, through the education process ended up.

I remember I was working for an accountant.

As a bookkeeper.

So funny.

I was in, it was in college and this, this accountant hired me just as a clerk.

And so I'm in there clerking.

And he asked me one day, he was an older man at the time.

He was probably in his, probably late fifties is a beautiful guy named Jim.

He asked me, so what do you want to do in your life?

And I responded, it's so funny.

I said, I want to be a para accountant, a para accountant.

He said, what is a para accountant?

And, what I was.

Assembling was these, was this through the lens of this broken spirit, this,

this poverty mindset, those things that we were talking about, best thing

I could dream of was like, you've heard of a, what do they call it?

An attorney, a legal, like a paralegal.

Okay.

So I come up with, I could never aspire to be an accountant.

Like you, Jim, I'll be a para accountant.

He looks at me like, he didn't say it, but I'm sure he thought, That's gotta

be the dumbest thing I've ever heard.

It reminds me of like, I don't want to be a full accountant.

I want to be almost an accountant.

Or

I

Stephen De Silva: I want to be a half.

I think the all Austin powers thing is like, you know, it's,

you're going to be the diet Coke of accounting, you know, just one calorie.

I'm not, not quite an accountant

Stephen De Silva: That's perfect.

Yeah.

I just want to be the one calorie version, you know?

Oh

aspire to the full accountant.

I just want to be a mini accountant, you know, mini me.

Stephen De Silva: no, no, that's outrageous.

I would never risk my heart to go do that.

So, yeah.

Well, What he did is he, gently said, I think you should be a CPA.

I think you should go for the test.

I think, okay, so I, I did that.

I, went through the academics and I finished my exam and I worked very

hard because remember my, my, fear of success was terrifying to me.

And, so my study habits were ferocious.

I remember I, well, I won't tell the story, but I just studied.

I, I'm sure people have studied harder, but I studied hours and

hours and days and weeks for this test and went in and just nailed it.

So now what do I do?

Well, I guess I'll go apply for a job.

So I ended up with a job.

In accounting and of course, you're just a mill coming out of the

university system as a CPA, candidate.

And so I went in and they, they ground me up and I, I, I survived it and

there's a lot of funny stories there.

But when I got through that, I, during that time, my wife and I had

our first son and, we were in a city.

I won't name that was just not, it was not.

Working for us.

It felt scary and there was some dangers around that we thought

we're going to get out of here.

So we moved back to our hometown to a different accounting firm, which

I, you know, I love this little firm.

But I began to, I was, I was growing in dissatisfaction because the

thing about accounting, is it's all.

it's all rear view mirror view.

You know, you're always fixing last year's, you're auditing last

year, you're preparing a taxes from what has happened behind us.

And I thought, gosh, I'd really like to be involved in the

steering of an organization.

And that, that idea, I'm not sure where it came from.

I hope it was the Holy spirit, but it grew in me to the point

where I was really dissatisfied.

not, not in circumstances.

I had a beautiful job, great people I worked with.

And, I was succeeding.

I was, I was climbing up the corporate ladder, so to speak, but

there was this dissatisfaction.

A job opened and a friend called me and another accountant said, Hey, I think

you'd be perfect for this job because you're a really, you're a strange

version of Christian that I've ever met.

And there's this.

Equally strange church.

I think you ought to go check it out And they're looking for an a

and a comp troller was the title.

They were looking for a their lead accountant So I thought I

remember my reaction was no way no way am I going to ever take that?

That would be career suicide and during the night I feel this This is metaphor a

tap on my shoulder from the holy spirit.

Hey, that's what you've been praying for to silva Open your

eyes and go check that out.

It was so, Oh, Oh yeah.

So I, I went and applied and a lot of fun little stories.

I'll lead out, leave out here.

But yeah, I ended up accepting that job.

And within two weeks of taking the job, the church leader leaves and

the whole church goes into a crisis.

And I find myself untrained, no lead, no guidelines in a position as the

lead accountant in a church that was struggling with no leadership.

This was 1996, 1995, and it was the most fun I'd ever had as an accountant

because I got my, my wish came true.

I wasn't the lead, of course, but in the accounting space, I got to steer and

it was hairy, man, and I just loved it.

I thought it's like a ship on fire and I'm the fireman on board and I love this.

So I found a part of myself that I, You know, didn't know existed.

That was my, my beginning.

I was there for 21 years as their CFO, and it was a wonderful season of my life.

Well, the, the cool thing is, is that.

You know, the mechanic goes in and diagnoses the problem and does all

the, now they've got computers that do it, but you know, we're of the

age where we remember where you just have to listen and hear and

use intuition and things like that.

It sounds like, especially early on, and I'm guessing the nature, I'm going

to ask a couple of questions maybe about being in that role in a ministry.

situation because we have a lot of ministers and people

that are leaders in ministries.

I'm on the few boards of ministries.

We have a nonprofit and things like that.

I know you do also that, You know, sometimes they don't even think about

any control, you know, comptroller or anything over the money.

I don't think that's good But then there's some and we know how this

works and i'll maybe even pose this as a question that that money leads

and controls in the situation.

And, and listen, for, for those that do not know, most people do, I think at this

point, because of the music and, and, you know, all the cool things and, you know,

all the stuff that's come out of, out of Bethel, give everybody just, I hate

to say a brief description of Bethel.

You know, every, every time I hear the word, I think of music and supernatural.

That's what, that's what comes to

my mind, but anything else that would characterize that for someone who's maybe

even not in spiritual circles, but even the spiritual circles, but aren't familiar

with Bethel to just kind of help frame the next question or two, I might ask.

Stephen De Silva: Yeah.

so through my lens, Bethel was a established church.

it was an assemblies of God church, which is just a huge denomination

with very, very formal church.

and, in 1995, it represented one of the larger, I think one of the two largest

churches in the city there that, that it is in Reading and, the other was a

Baptist, a beautiful Baptist church.

I was not a church goer in those days.

My church experience was, the small home group, worship with a guitar, intimacy,

you know, worship and intimacy, loving God and just not structured religion.

So, what happened is Bethel, as I said, their, their senior leader,

who was a terrific man, he, retired and moved off to a different career.

If I believe is where he went and, the leadership in this church, this was

right around the time that I was hired.

And so I feel like a fish out of water in this environment that's

structured, but they're, they're, they're looking for, what do we do next?

Wow.

Our senior leader's gone, people have followed and left.

And so the church was kind of.

I imagine a lot of the members were really scrambling and really trying to find out

who are we and what are we going to do?

Well, what happened is, We began to accumulate a bunch of hungry people for

authentic, authentic connection to God.

It wasn't a religious hunger, like, liturgy.

It wasn't, you know, let's, let's go find, a structure that we can live inside

that is, religious frame, framework.

It was, we really want to find God.

We have needs in school.

Things that scare us in our lives and we think God can help.

How do we find him authentically?

So what happened?

This is 1995 is, the nucleus began to accumulate of people who really were

just not interested in pretending.

my wife said it best.

She said, I'm so dried out inside.

She said, if, if, if God isn't real, let's, let's, Forget this God thing.

Let's just, let's not do it.

You know, we're not looking for structure and rules.

We we're looking for, we need, we need to meet this person.

If this person exists, well, that represented this core nucleus,

this core nucleus, grew slowly.

And I have to say from my perspective, from 1995, where I first engaged

this up until, I don't know, mid, mid, 2020, somewhere in there,

2010, 2005, somewhere in there, the organization was naive and beautiful.

It was just innocent.

You know, we, we were messy.

We, we made mistakes.

We would admit that we're not, we're not, you know, the smartest

people, the sharpest tools in the shed, so to speak, but, but we loved

God and God started showing up.

And what happened is, God showing up looked like people changing.

I remember this one board member, I, of course, she's a

beautiful, beautiful person.

I would never mean disrespect, but she was a grouchy, grouchy person.

And, throughout this process, we watched this person's heart turn and soften.

And she just became so different.

It's just one of those things.

Literally thousands of examples of, of what appeared to be miracles

around us, people's hearts changing, people's diseases shifting and healing

and, prayers asked and answered.

It was, it was incredible.

So what happened is people, outsiders began to hear this

and accumulate and visit.

And those were the years that I was the accountant.

So my, my job on the wall, I'm, I'm not a teacher or a preacher at all.

I'm the accountant in the back office, just trying to manage the growth

in the, in the organization grew about 20 to 25 percent every year.

So if you figure that, Oh, that sounds nice until you do that for.

You know, 20 years straight and you've gotten, you've gotten an

organization that's, you know, four or five times as size, it's staggering.

There was, this is one of the beautiful parts.

Like you said, the mechanical part for me was how do I solve this problem?

and not, to your point, not kill the movement.

How do you do that?

And so I can talk about that if you care, but I do think there is a, an

important role of administration.

It's a gift, a biblical gift of administration.

It's like the bottom scissor of a pair of scissors.

You know, the top part is the devotion and spontaneity and the And, and

really spirituality of an organization.

And the bottom is the, the clean lines, the, the systemization,

the integrity, the character, and my job was the bottom scissor.

and the, you know, the leaders of the church were the top scissor.

And for any pastors who are listening, I think the key is to

not get the scissors upside down.

They both cut.

And even with the scissors upside down, the system will work.

In other words, if administration is the leading controlling decision

maker, that will cut for a while, but that's, it's upside down.

You need it the other way to keep that.

that devotion and that naivete, that beautiful innocence in an organization.

Otherwise it gets, it chokes off.

It calcifies.

Yeah, so what?

It's interesting the thing that came to me, Stephen, while you were saying

that when you mentioned 20 to 25 percent growth kind of year over year,

which for anyone who's a leader of an organization listening in for anyone who

heads ministry and or business, which we've got both here, you know, most

people would almost said kill for that.

Some people would, that's unfortunate that I thought that, but that's obviously

there was the God's hand was in that.

But I, the curiosity that I had was what did that do for Steven's lack

mindset that he had growing up and that disappointment that kind of came

along with that, because I know that Prosperous Soul was birthed sometime.

During that, you know, it's like, I think you just celebrated your 25th anniversary.

So if I'm doing the math, right, it was late nineties and all that.

But what was, what did that do for your, your lack that, you know, that

sort of baked in that, that we're all working through the things from our

younger days, what did it do for that lack mindset that you said you had?

Stephen De Silva: Wow.

Yeah.

I,

Cause you saw the numbers,

you were

dealing with numbers,

Stephen De Silva: I

You weren't, you

weren't necessarily

looking at the ministry.

I'm sure you were, but you had spreadsheets.

Stephen De Silva: right.

I had spreadsheets.

I had my Excel formulas running and my software.

And, you know, I, I was the one who had to put the two ends of the hose together.

One is this practical, we need to pay bills.

The other is, well, what's God saying?

Give away our offering from this Sunday.

You know, just all this crazy spontaneity.

I'm trying to get these two ends every week to cover our bills.

It was, really, really stressful and a funny story.

Maybe this relates.

I was, stressing out.

You'll notice most of my hair is gone, and this was where it went

was during this season, trying to figure out how does this work?

How do I make this work every single week?

And, one time I heard the leader of the church.

He said someone asked him, How do you handle the stress of this growth?

And his answer was, I don't really feel any of it.

I'm sitting in the room thinking, Oh, my gosh, no wonder I'm over

here doing all the scary stuff.

That's your, that's your job, Steven.

Stephen De Silva: but that was my

your job, Steven.

You deal.

Stephen De Silva: Yeah.

your job is to, no, well, that was my orphan paradigm.

My, my poverty mindset is I have to make this work.

And when this leader said that, I realized, oh, and I think again,

the Holy Spirit tap on the shoulder.

I heard, you know, the idea, well, who asked you to do that?

That isn't your job.

You're making that up.

And I went, oh no.

So I began to understand as a survival technique, the difference

between responsibility and authority.

the leader had the authority.

But I had taken his responsibility and without the authority

and it was just killing me.

So I ended up, in a very tear filled moment in the chapel many, many times.

We have a little room there we call the chapel and, on campus.

And, I was in there processing with God.

What do I do?

Why do I feel so?

Empty inside, I'm surrounded.

If we give context of 25 percent growth, 20 to 25, not to

exaggerate, but every year, it's just everything people are coming.

And it's, it is just the craziest external favor on us.

And I like to think of.

In spite of our best efforts, we were growing, you know, we, we didn't know

what we were doing, whatever it looks like or whatever people think or intuit.

No, it was a, it was a mess.

And we were just doing our best to hang on from my perspective.

That's mine.

And, And, so there was growth, I had influence, I had favor, I had

friendships, I had income, I had position, I had all these things externally.

My family was doing well, my kids loved me, my wife and I were in love, you

know, it was just, it was all good.

And still I felt empty.

And I'm like, what in the world is going on, God, that,

that doesn't even make sense.

And referencing verses like John 10, verse 10, chapter 10, verse 10, just,

just referencing some of these contexts.

I'm like, what is going on?

And God showed me that.

I was an orphan.

I understood God at a distance.

Even though I was, I believed in God, I worshiped God, I still do.

I, I, Because of my tragedy, I can go back to a story from earlier, and my broken

spirit, I related to Jesus who forgave me and rescued me, and I related to the Holy

Spirit who comforted me and educated me.

He trained me, Holy Spirit.

So, I was like, You're mine.

You know, I embraced them.

But Father God, I understood as the judge and, I'm scared of father God.

So I've built my doctrinal understanding around that.

I'm just going to hide in Christ, right?

I'm going to take my cardboard cut out of Jesus and just stand behind it.

Whenever God, when I perceive God, the father is around.

Well, that just was an invitation and without sharing the details.

I had a picture, this was a true vision, of Father God sitting on this massive

throne in the middle of this room all by himself, and I am standing in the

hallway that leads to this room, but I am scared to walk in, and Father God

doesn't speak, he just goes like this with his finger, he says, come here, with

his finger, and there was no way I was going to go near God, because of fear.

You know, my, my poverty mindset, this persisted and finally, and I'm

now crossing days and days and days.

And I finally began to approach God and I went and sat behind this throne.

I was so scared to be seen because of my mistakes.

And you, you know, we've talked about those and what I began

to learn over this experience.

Now this vision happened day after day after day for, it feels like two years.

I don't know, but it's just every single day I would practice

being seen by Father God.

I was in a school learning the difference between doing and being,

which is the distinction between an orphan mindset and an adoption mindset.

And so whether we're in a secular environment or a spiritual environment,

whatever, wherever we are, this is the principle, there is such

a profound need on the planet.

for adoption.

The need is so deep in humanity, the only solution was Jesus

had to come and die to fix it.

So the, I believe the essence of the gospel message is Jesus had to come and

interrupt this fact that we are separated.

And he's the only one who can close it.

Jesus did accomplish that.

Of course on the cross is finished, but we still live with gaps out

of cultural information and belief structures and the little T's and all

this stuff, our part, we need to learn how to close the gap and press in.

to father God.

And so that is the, profound moment in my life where I began to learn about,

about identity and being with God.

And, we could talk on and on.

That's where my purpose train tool begins to emerge and you know,

where it all flows out of that.

I begin to understand purpose is not the The top floor or the

the key to a life well lived it.

There's a layer one layer above it.

And that's identity.

We need to know who we are.

And there's only two choices.

You're either.

adopted or you're orphaned.

You're either comfortable in your own skin or you're not.

You either belong or you don't.

And once we fundamentally understand that in context of God, then our

purpose, vision, and strategies and tactics flow from that.

Great thing about that, Steven, is that's one of

the things when you and I had, you know, we spoke for an hour or so,

about a year, year and a half ago.

That is one of the things that still rings in my head.

Is that piece.

And I have even shared that because it's, I think And we're, we're

talking about people, probably many people listening that they have,

this is going to sound a little bit cynical, but I think you get it.

They've checked the salvation box.

They have said, I accept Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior.

Yeah, exactly.

But yet you, do not, you haven't approached.

See my, my personality, this is kind of a good contrast here.

My personality was.

The opposite arrogance.

I walk in a room and I think I own the place I've got issues there too.

But so when I stepped into the kingdom of God, when I was invited

in, accepted Jesus, I automatically said, I'm going to the throne.

I'm going to walk right in and converse.

We got, where's my wife and others like you're talking about that

have experienced disappointment and all that you're standing way back.

And so, so it is so fascinating.

I think this is a, such a root.

root conversation.

Is this what birthed your prosperous soul?

I guess ministry message, things that led to books, et cetera.

Is that kind of, is that when that began ish?

Stephen De Silva: I, I, I have to be honest, I, I began wrestling

with poverty and greed or mammon.

I began that and wrote the book with some awareness of this idea.

It was later when I understood there's a layer above it.

One of my chapters in the book talks about the four floors of purpose,

vision, strategies and tactics and the importance of living on the top floor.

Well it was after this experience, so after the book was published,

that I realized there's actually a layer on top of that and that's.

identity.

So I was still in the process of healing.

You see, I think at the top floor, the idea of identity has

two choices, orphan or adoption.

Orphan, the orphan identity, is the source of problems with money.

That's the cause.

And that's really what I want to do is heal that orphan wound, close the

wound, and from that begin to build real capacity with wealth, with increase.

And do, obviously, Christ.

I mean, it's, I probably need to say that for listeners.

It's not about having a Rolex and driving a Maserati or whatever people drive.

I don't even know, but it's about using my money on purpose for

a cause greater than ourselves.

So, I think that when I wrote the book, I was wrestling poverty

and its mindset and hating it.

But I didn't know what to do about it.

So I began to learn about the fingerprints and the mindset and

there's scriptures, you know, there's good teachers that talk about this.

And so I was learning these things and applying them to my life.

I later learned that poverty and mammon are like puppet twins.

Two sides of the same coin.

They seem opposite, you know, excess and lack villain and victim.

Those seem like opposites, but they're actually a family.

There are two sides of one coin and the coin is.

orphan.

That's our identity.

And that's why I think it's the highest level.

You have to solve this puzzle and then your purpose, vision, strategies, the

floors below begin to straighten out.

It's like orphanism distorts or twists our purpose in life

and our vision and everything.

If from an orphan orientation, it just twists all of that.

Yeah.

So when I wrote the book, I found a lot of secrets.

But I realize now, I still use those tools very much.

I have courses on them and whatnot, and, they're powerful and effective,

but to actually heal financial disease, to move from disease to

past healing into health, financial health is different than healing.

if you, to, in order to get to health, and I like to think of it

as a slide, we have to defy gravity.

And get to a new stable, a new stable place, this health.

In order to do that, you have to, begin with identity.

You have to cut the strings of the puppet master, which is orphan ism,

the mindset of orphan there, you know.

I'm no theologian, but I do think there is one orphan, a

real one, and that's the devil.

And he's trying to father people because he wants to be like God.

And because he's trying to father people, he's recreating orphans.

And unfortunately, many people Outside of Christianity, inside Christianity,

we are reinforced with orphan ideas.

We kind of, we, it, it suits us because orphanism gives us so many excuses.

You know, we can hide and blame others and we can vilify and do

things to others and justify it.

It's just a, it's, it's an ugly place, but it's also epidemic.

there's a few things there.

Obviously you went through quite the journey to arrive at that.

And, and, and I also want to say this, that just to say you're either an

orphan or you're adopted is one thing to accept and believe that side that you.

Should accept is another thing that a lot of people have to go through.

Like you mentioned that healing process, I don't, I don't know why, but the

scripture in Matthew six, you know, you can't serve two masters, you can't serve

God and Mammon kind of popped in my mind.

I recognize that I was attempting to serve both and you can't, I think it's

like you mentioned, it's that coin.

I think there's, you know, the kingdom of God, you know, God's

system, God's side, whatever.

And then there's.

The enemy the enemy of god, which is you know, satan satan all of all

of that There's a lot more to that.

I call it babylon at times just to say it's babylon or the

kingdom of god Yeah, just to do it.

But

one thing I do want to ask this question because I think it's sort of

foundational it's amazing to me that many translations and scriptures will

Replace that word mammon You know, you can't serve God in mammon with money.

but could you just briefly define mammon?

Because I think

it's a word that we throw out at times in our And you can't serve both.

I want to, that's my foundation of it.

But a lot of people don't know mammon might be.

They go, it's money.

I don't serve money.

Yeah, whatever.

Okay.

What's mammon?

Stephen De Silva: Yeah, wow.

Yeah, so Mammon is an ancient word that we don't relate to today because it's

not like an common English language word.

It's Chaldean, so that takes us literally back to Babylon.

So, it's funny that you call that system Babylonian, that is completely accurate.

So, the Babylonian system is summed up best in, I forget the chapter in

Revelation, but it talks about, You know, they're mourning the fall of Babylon.

And, if you realize, if you read that passage, you see what Babylon

offered and it was riches and purple and, you know, wealth, it was, it

was all of these comforts and things, but that passage is keep reading.

It's fascinating because it ends with slaves and human lives.

It is a system designed.

to enslave us.

So that's the Babylonian concept that the world was mourning in and is going

to mourn in the Book of Revelation.

Well, that culture labeled or gave a name to the The, the heart condition that

is necessary and that is called mammon.

It's the actual word is momonas.

And it, what it means is it does not mean money.

it does not mean wealth.

Now, there are English translations, NIV, NASB, I think the new King

James, the original King James, the one that used the word mammon,

that is the actual right word.

But mammon means wealth deified.

So it's different than, wealth.

It's wealth that has been, something has been done to it.

We have made it our source or point of worship.

Another way to look at mammon is money.

personified.

So it's a, it's a pretty hideous idea if you think about it, where we are willing

to in worship to this thing of wealth, this idea in that worship, we're willing

to sacrifice ourselves and others.

That's the worship component.

And, it's, it's an embezzling idea.

It, it steals from us.

It's a pretty gross thing when we actually look at it.

And, this is why you can't serve God and mammon because we are designed to

worship something greater than ourselves.

And even if we, you know, maybe a atheist would say, well, I'm not what

they're doing is worshiping Humanity.

That's what humanism is, right?

So we all worship something and, money is very common, for us to gravitate

to in the absence of Christ, because money is a spiritual power that

exaggerates whatever it touches.

It makes things bigger.

So if you worship it, guess what?

In exchange, you get power.

That's the mechanics behind Mammon, but, Mammon itself will Eat you.

It will eat you alive.

It will destroy you, your family, all the things that we care about,

our identity, our core values, our dreams, all of those things will be

sacrificed to this, this, mindset.

So some people have taught Mammon to be a demon.

I don't believe that I could be wrong.

I just see Mammon as a mindset.

a paradigm of worship.

And that's why I think mammon is not a demon.

That's why you can't cast it out.

You know, just like poverty is not a demon.

There are demons around these things, like flies around

manure, but you don't cast out.

You have to, you have to supplant those things.

I don't think they're demons.

I think they are mindsets, but there is a demon involved.

And that is the great orphan.

That's the orphan

Yeah.

And I, and I definitely think for me, I know that what I did, because

I was attempting at times to serve two masters, that, that serving that

Spirit of Mammon, Mammon, you know, serving that opens up the doors for

a lot of demons to mess with you.

You know, it, it, it,

it can definitely weaken you.

You're not, you're not in that adopted, fully adopted state,

if that even makes sense.

orphan and adopted.

I think that's foundational.

I love that.

And I do, I've got a, I got a copy of the book here, money in the prosperous soul.

And, and, and I've highlighted, and I think I'm going to ask you something

to do something here that's probably going to be difficult for you.

I would love it if you could talk about and maybe just hit it at an

extremely high level and quickly.

That's why I think it's going to be tough for you.

The tactic, strategy, vision, and purpose, the four levels, because I think when you

tie that with the identity and I, and I want to tell this to the listener, you're

not going to get enough From this, I just want you to be exposed to it and hear it.

And then Steven, in a little while, we'll talk about more resources where you

could go either in the book, or I know you've got a lot of resources like that.

So could you just briefly talk about that?

That's the purpose train, talk about that and tie it

in with identity in our last few minutes here.

Then I've got a question or two, and then we are going to jump off, but that's

how, how's that for a tough task for you?

Stephen De Silva: I can do that.

I appreciate you asking.

That's great.

I'm going to go to the top floor, which is purpose.

So I'm referring to floors is what's in the book.

The top floor is purpose.

like I said, there's another layer I've learned it's identity.

So let me go to an imaginary top floor, the fifth level,

which is identity is where.

It answers the question, who?

It's not who God is.

It's who am I?

And so the, the question is identity.

The answer is who?

And the reward or the outcome is value.

That's where worth and value are received.

They are given to you.

That's how you get it, is identity adopted.

the second, the next level down is purpose.

So the question is, what is your purpose?

Thanks.

The answer is, why am I alive, and the thing that is received,

or the reward, is meaning in life.

That's where meaning comes in.

is absorbed or received.

That's where it comes from.

Below that is vision is the question, and the answer is what.

What do you see in the future based on a top down perspective?

And the thing that is received in vision is hope, and hope is what the world

Especially our gens, gen z's and etc.

You know, they need hope.

Well, that's where you get it, but you don't work from the bottom up.

You always work from the top down.

Don't build vision without first figuring out who am I and why am I.

Below that is strategy.

The question is, what is, what is my strategy?

The answer is how I'm going to get there.

Whatever this pull system is engineering.

And the thing that is given or the reward of that is assignment.

It's your, it's your action steps to take, whether it's in

home or business or whatever.

That's where we actually do.

That's where we become a human doing.

And then finally at the bottom are tactics.

The question is.

What are my decisions?

And the answer becomes either yes or no.

Very simple.

If it's a pull system that is connected to this decision, if this

decision is on my purpose train, then the answer will clearly come out.

Yes or no.

If it's an orphan idea, then you, you can, you can identify those.

The thing that you gain the reward from tactics and the yes or no is clarity

and simplicity, quietness of mind and heart that sleep, sweet, sweet sleep.

What we long for.

That's where that comes from.

So there's my summary.

Yeah, and the great thing about that is that I, I

consider that a kingdom of God model.

And as you were bringing that up, I saw Maslow's hierarchy of

needs rising to self, it flips it.

You talked about the cascade.

I don't know if you've ever put thought into this, but it really is what most

people are attempting to get to that self.

Actualization and they're building from the ground up and

you started from the top down.

That to me was the contrast I saw.

You're nodding for those that, you know, I'm not messing up your model.

I don't think I'm, I'm contextualizing or putting in perspective.

And, and I do want to say, Steven, you know, you and I had a sozo session.

I'll, we'll mention in just a moment how people can connect with you and find out.

And you brought this up and I find myself, you know, we're all a

product of the things that have come into our, our, Mind and spirit and

all over the course of our lives.

I find myself using almost that model with organizations also, you

know, this is an individual thing.

But, you know, organizations need to understand their identity, their purpose,

and, and, and all the way down to tactics.

And, you know, I actually emailed you probably about a year ago.

I said, Hey, listen, I don't want to be swiping anything, but I'm kind

of using this some, is that okay?

And I can't remember what you said.

We'll have our lawyers get involved.

No, I'm just kidding.

But anyway, no, I mean, I, so I see so much value from that, Stephen.

So we we've, we've got a minute here.

Is there anything else before I kind of start wrapping up that you might want to

say anything that the spirit is leading you or, or something that might be

unsaid, knowing that we've really just touched the surface and exposed some

people to a lot of really cool stuff.

Stephen De Silva: Yeah, I thank you for asking that.

I think I would encourage people if, if, if someone is inspired or

wondering, how do I start with this?

What I would do is, give yourself permission to spend a little bit of time

every single day exercising this muscle.

That is being and not doing, you know, I think we have big muscles developed,

especially if we're in the business or ministry area, if we're any kind

of a leader, we are buffed on doers, but being is a different tiny muscle.

It can build and it needs to build.

So that's what I would do is give yourself permission, listener, to sit.

10 minutes a day, you know, for me, it's first thing in the morning

and just be with Father God.

My example of him on the throne where I just came and sat with him and he

looked at me and I had to bear that.

Go do that for a while.

Let Father God look at you in all of your ugliness and your nakedness.

Just let him be there.

He loves you and just experience that and let that change your paradigm.

It's very healing.

to hang out with Father God.

It is the reason Christ came, was to show us the Father.

And I think that will be transformational for people.

Yeah, that's so good, Steven.

I appreciate that.

If someone wants to connect with you or get some of your resources or something,

where, where do you want to send people?

We'll include it down in notes and all that, but where, where

do you want someone to go?

I mean, I'm, I'm expecting some people to say, I want some more,

but, where do you want them to go?

How can they connect?

Stephen De Silva: Well, the, the, if, if you're a shopper and you

just kind of like to window shop, I'd point you to my website.

I've got tons of resources in there.

Courses, the website is prosperous soul.

com all one word.

but if you're wanting, if a listener wants to talk to me more, About any

element that we've touched on, I will give a link to you for the notes that

lets them schedule a zoom meeting privately with me a short one, maybe

15 to 20 minutes and they get to meet.

We get to talk and they can ask, what is the question?

And then I could say, Oh, here's your next best step.

And it was just save them a lot of time and accelerate

whatever it is they're after.

Excellent.

I appreciate that.

And, like I said, I, as a coach have even talked to Steven in what we call

a Zozo session and it was powerful and I've been wanting to get back on the

line and allow me to ask the questions.

And so I'm excited that we've been able to do that.

Steven, we are seek, go create those three words.

I'm either going to allow or force you to choose one of those.

Don't ever think it either, by the way, seek.

Go or create, which do you choose?

And why is my final question.

Stephen De Silva: I love that you asked that.

And I, I have thought about this for quite a few weeks.

I follow your podcast.

I've decided it's Seek.

And for me, Seek, the reason is It is the closest word for the position of

sitting with Father God and listening.

I think the secrets of Solomon hide in seek.

The Bible says nothing was hidden from Solomon.

It doesn't say he knew everything.

It says nothing was hidden from Solomon.

I believe Solomon knew how to seek and listen.

And that, that's the word I choose.

I love that.

Awesome.

Stephen, I've enjoyed the conversation.

I highly recommend that you get money and the prosperous soul.

I've got a hard copy that is signed by Stephen that you sent me a while back.

And then I also have it on my Kindle.

So I've got two copies of it and I appreciate that.

Make sure you pick up a copy of that and just connect with Stephen.

This has been such a rich conversation.

Conversation.

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