Speaker: 00:00:00

I believe that God does his work

in whatever context

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he is allowed to do his work.

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And with the,

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ready accessibility we have to

the scriptures and people in general

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have to the scriptures, somebody somewhere

is bound to be reading these words.

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And again, like Dean Taylor

and his wife were,

00:00:18,351 --> 00:00:22,063

finishing up the day and reading the Bible

as they were in the military

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and asking, what? What do we do with this?

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When Jesus says, love your enemies?

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Well, what do we do with this?

00:00:34,284 --> 00:00:35,118

Yuriy Kravets.

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Welcome

to the Anabaptist Perspectives podcast.

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So by way of context or introduction,

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you were born in Ukraine and,

behind the Iron Curtain, actually,

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before the Iron Curtain would've

fallen in.

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What's, the

what was the Soviet Union at the time?

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Ultimately, you left, and we're here now

in America.

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We’re in, you know, Pennsylvania,

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doing this and there is quite a story

in between for you and your family.

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And, wanna capture that today and,

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you know, lessons

learned along the way and,

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and what you all went through

through that whole process.

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So let's just jump right in.

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And the first question being,

what was it like growing up in Ukraine?

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What kind of church situation

were you a part of?

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And and let's

let's start at the beginning.

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Sure.

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So like you said, I was born in the

Ukraine, in the Soviet Union, actually.

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So in 1988, right before the fall.

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And I still have some memories of,

of that time,

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growing up there and in our village,

right on the edge of Kiev,

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the capital city, and, yes,

still a good bit of memories.

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It's helped that our family has went back

and forth a number of times there,

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which I'll get into the story as we go.

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So growing

up, I'd say I'd had a happy childhood.

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You know, functional Christian family,

which is, blessing.

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Something that I value more

and more as the years go by.

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Parents did their best to raise, us boys.

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I have, five brothers, but six, actually,

one passed away when he was little.

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So, the first big

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change in my life

is we're going to America.

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Like. Whoa, America.

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What? What what's that like? Right.

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Because you heard things.

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We didn't have a TV, right?

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So we weren't exactly sure.

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We just heard stories.

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Now, to my parents.

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What America was was the,

illegal radio broadcast

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that I think it was the voice of peace

or or some Christian radio station would,

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beam their messages

So these messages would,

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the government would try to jam them

to make sure they, couldn't get through.

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But they still somehow managed

to get through.

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And so America was a Christian nation

where people were Christians and upright,

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and they had this preaching, these

this message of salvation,

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to, to spread to the whole world

so that that was in our eyes

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and most of my parents eyes.

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That was America, right?

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So, hey, we're actually going there

through a set of circumstances.

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So, hey, we're actually going there

through a set of circumstances.

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It's,

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kind of a

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not not a straightforward path

that it took,

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to for us to get here,

but we're going there.

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But, I think it would help to give it

some additional context

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of what it was like, in Ukraine,

probably even before my time.

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So, as I mentioned,

I was born into a Christian family,

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and my parents would have been part

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of the unregistered

or underground church as,

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of the unregistered

or underground church as,

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as it's commonly known.

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So part of why it was unregistered

was that they believed

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in the separation of church and state

The separation of church and state,

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meant that the state

should not have any say in church affairs.

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They rejected government involvement

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and particularly the communist regime,

which was the regime

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at the time

for a whole generation of Slavic people.

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That was the regime that they,

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lived with, which was atheistic.

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And, you know, that everything

that comes along, as part of that package.

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And my dad was actually imprisoned

for his faith

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on trumped up charges, for some time.

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How long was he in prison?

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Almost three years.

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So his, sentence was cut short

by just a little bit

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because of the fall of the Soviet Union.

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And there all political prisoners,

I think, which included

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religious prisoners were set free.

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Man, that's kind of wild.

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Like, I don't know.

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I've heard stories or you read a book,

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you know, about whatever

the underground church.

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And for you

to have such a direct connection to that.

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Wow, that that must have been really hard,

you know, for your family

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in that kind of environment.

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Yeah,

there were some difficulties, for sure.

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But in a way, those prisoners,

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they had a mission field in the prisons.

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And so that's one of the things

that the underground church

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was good at adapting to is

what are the circumstances?

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How can we still live out

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the teachings of Christ

to evangelize, to share the gospel?

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And so I believe that God

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did his work there

through the multitudes of prisoners

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that, were in prison for their faith

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and are essentially the heroes of,

modern day heroes of the faith.

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Even though here in the American context

we know about them.

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But we may not know their names,

except for maybe a few

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that books were written about

and that kind of thing.

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So, of course,

I don't remember any of that.

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I don't remember meeting in the woods.

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I don't remember, police coming

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and breaking up, services

and and that kind of thing.

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But growing up, these are the stories

I heard, and these are,

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So this was really ingrained into me

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that this was a regular

Christian experience.

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That's that's just so interesting

because that's very different from,

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I'm assuming,

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what most of our audience would know

as a regular Christian experience.

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Right? You know, and,

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so you're

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coming out of the Soviet Union,

you end up coming to America.

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So tell me about that process.

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Like, how did that manage to happen?

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What year is this then that

that you all came as a family to America?

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So from 1990 to 1995,

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there was a lot of openness

to hearing about religious things.

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So remember a whole generation

of not having

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any kind of religious,

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influence.

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And now all of a sudden

all these doors are open.

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And so my dad was involved in evangelism.

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Various places opened their doors

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like institutions of higher learning,

even military bases. Wow.

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Okay.

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Tell me more like what was going on there.

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Well, they just, like, were curious,

like everybody else or what's happening.

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Pretty much.

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It was just.

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It was a state of political upheaval.

Right?

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So people weren't sure.

Things weren't settled down.

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The new government

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wasn't really functioning too well

although, it definitely wasn't anarchy.

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But there were,

you know, some mafia stirrings

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and that kind of stuff you hear about

when when the government isn't,

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really solidified in its,

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in its workings.

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So there was some of that,

but at the same time, there was openness.

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There was openness for evangelism.

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And, my dad, and a few others

just had open doors.

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They were able to share testimonies

and they were able to supply Bibles.

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By I think it's the Gideons, that,

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once again, the Soviet Union, fell apart.

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A lot of different groups

now had access to the former republics

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that made up the Soviet Union.

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So Gideons International,

I think, was one of them.

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And they supplied the Bibles,

but they had the local teams that went out

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and did the evangelism

and handed them out.

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So my dad was involved with that,

and it was kind of a

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what I would describe,

and I think he would describe as well,

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as a disconnect

between the head and the heart.

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Because the opportunity

to came to immigrate

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to the States came up several times.

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But, my parents rationale was, well, God's

opening this door for evangelism here.

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Why would we go, somewhere,

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to, well, that they didn't really,

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know about, a different place,

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a different culture, different language,

and that kind of thing.

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And, you know, a lot of unknowns.

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So the, the head said

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there's no reason to, to go to immigrate,

but there was something,

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in the heart that said,

this is the right thing to do.

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So that's, a significant part

of the context of my parents

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deciding to immigrate.

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And the church we were a part of at the

time, which comes back in the story later.

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They were supportive of this,

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which was not the case

for a lot of, immigrants

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as I understand it, during that time,

because it wasn't only our family,

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there were a lot of families

that decided to immigrate.

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And so we had the blessing of our church

and 1995,

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we got on a plane in Kiev and went,

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flew to JFK.

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And that was the beginning

of our, experience.

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And I still remember that

this was almost 30 years ago.

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I still remember,

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my first impression of America.

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I had my first taste of coke.

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I remember it burning my mouth.

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That kind of thing.

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I remember just on the van that we were

that came and brought us, to Pennsylvania,

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just looking at all these cars

that were just

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on the road and, New York City traffic

and and everything.

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Oh, wow. Just all these cars.

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We had nothing of the sort

there in Kiev at the time.

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Early 90s, when, Soviet

Union fell apart? Yes.

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You'd see some,

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like, imported cars and you’d

think whoa, like, BMW or Mercedes.

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But here just

the roads are chock full of cars.

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And that that was just.

200

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Those are two very prominent memories

that stick out as we as we came.

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Yeah.

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It's the culture

shock is pretty immediate I guess.

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So with, with this whole story.

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You you okay?

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So now you're in America as a family.

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Where did the Anabaptists

come in to the picture here.

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Yes, that's a very good question. And,

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along what I said about lots of groups

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making inroads into the former

Soviet republics.

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I think, CAM, and I think it was MIM,

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jumped on the opportunity

relatively early.

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Now, again,

I was three years old at the time,

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so I don't have recollection of this.

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But according to the stories

I've heard, that,

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the CAM came in

with the humanitarian aspect of things,

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and MIM came in with, missional,

the of the church aspect of things.

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And so there, my, my dad in particular

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made the initial contact with, a group

I think we knew very little about,

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as Mennonites anabaptists.

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They looked different.

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They appear to have the same beliefs

as us.

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But but,

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yeah, again, it was a state of upheaval,

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like in politically, culturally,

so many different things happening.

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But that was the initial contact.

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So when we arrived to the States,

we continue have a little bit of contact

227

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back and forth with the, Mennonites

or the Anabaptists in Kiev there.

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But not much.

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so we got connected

with an evangelical church,

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which we had relatives in,

and they had Baptist in the name,

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which was very familiar to us

because we would have identified

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with officially evangelical

Christian Baptists,

233

00:12:17,361 --> 00:12:19,196

which the Baptist meant that

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it was, believer's baptism.

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Okay.

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So that's that's the context

of being Baptist in the former

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Soviet Union,

as opposed to being baptized as an infant.

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So the great

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00:12:35,045 --> 00:12:39,508

contribution there, in that context,

was that the pastor

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encouraged, urged my parents not to send,

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me and my siblings to the public school.

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And instead

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attend a private Christian school.

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There was there at the church.

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And looking back

now, I that was very helpful

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because it kept us

in a religious environment.

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Now I say, religious environment.

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As I get into the story more,

you'll see why I use that phrase.

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But I think it really helped us

in the long run.

250

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That was a struggle for my parents,

because they grew up going

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to public school

and under an atheistic government,

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00:13:20,883 --> 00:13:25,387

and here being told, no,

the public school will just erode

253

00:13:25,387 --> 00:13:28,349

the values of your children and the values

you're trying to raise them with.

254

00:13:28,349 --> 00:13:29,600

That just didn't make sense.

255

00:13:29,600 --> 00:13:33,646

And it was one of the many things

that did not make sense to my parents

256

00:13:33,646 --> 00:13:37,858

about America and how Christianity

function here and everything.

257

00:13:37,983 --> 00:13:41,529

So that was a good experience,

258

00:13:42,404 --> 00:13:44,615

all circumstances considered.

259

00:13:44,615 --> 00:13:46,909

For us, for me and my brothers, as we,

260

00:13:47,993 --> 00:13:50,579

integrated here in the States

261

00:13:50,579 --> 00:13:53,415

So I said earlier

about the religious environment,

262

00:13:53,415 --> 00:13:57,628

because it is from that time period

that I'm beginning to connect the dots

263

00:13:57,962 --> 00:14:02,716

on things that eventually

bring me to the values I hold dear today.

264

00:14:03,634 --> 00:14:06,595

Looking back at that time, I would be,

265

00:14:08,180 --> 00:14:10,891

hard pressed to say

that most of my classmates

266

00:14:10,891 --> 00:14:13,894

from that time

are following the Lord today.

267

00:14:14,603 --> 00:14:18,274

Yes, we had daily exposure

to Bible stories and did Bible memory.

268

00:14:18,858 --> 00:14:23,571

But the hard practical teachings

of Jesus, such as loving your enemies

269

00:14:23,571 --> 00:14:27,116

and leaving a counter-cultural lifestyle,

weren't emphasized.

270

00:14:27,992 --> 00:14:31,829

So to give you an example, a vivid memory

that, sticks out in particular is

271

00:14:31,829 --> 00:14:34,832

there was this rule now going to a movie

theaters?

272

00:14:35,791 --> 00:14:39,336

Well, middle schoolers being middle

schoolers had the as the obvious.

273

00:14:39,545 --> 00:14:42,256

So but what if we go with our parents?

274

00:14:42,256 --> 00:14:45,509

Or what if we buy that same movie

and watch it at home?

275

00:14:46,176 --> 00:14:49,430

And I don't remember a good

answer being given to that?

276

00:14:50,598 --> 00:14:53,601

Yeah, that very legitimate question.

277

00:14:54,268 --> 00:14:58,355

And. The other thing is,

just the doctrinal teaching.

278

00:14:58,355 --> 00:15:04,570

So the teaching once saved, always saved

was something that was brought up again

279

00:15:04,570 --> 00:15:09,241

and again, saying like, once you're saved,

you're saved, you're good to go.

280

00:15:10,451 --> 00:15:12,703

And it was just ever present.

281

00:15:12,703 --> 00:15:17,041

So again, some students asked, well, what

if someone who is saved keeps sinning?

282

00:15:17,791 --> 00:15:20,377

And then I vividly

remember the response to that question

283

00:15:20,377 --> 00:15:23,380

is you will die.

284

00:15:23,464 --> 00:15:24,548

Oh, okay.

285

00:15:24,548 --> 00:15:24,798

Yeah.

286

00:15:24,798 --> 00:15:27,801

You you got God will

God will take you home.

287

00:15:28,469 --> 00:15:33,933

And again, something that did not make

make sense, but it was it was a very...

288

00:15:34,016 --> 00:15:39,772

again, looking at it now it's not it's

kind of jumping some hoops.

289

00:15:39,772 --> 00:15:41,690

But at that time we were young

and impressionable.

290

00:15:41,690 --> 00:15:44,151

Says okay we better not sin

even though we're saved.

291

00:15:44,151 --> 00:15:47,571

We better not sin because we will die,

is what I remember from that time.

292

00:15:48,072 --> 00:15:53,369

And I made, time and memory has probably

failed me on some of these particulars.

293

00:15:53,369 --> 00:15:55,454

And if I was to revisit

some of those conversations

294

00:15:55,454 --> 00:15:57,915

now, they probably would look

a little different.

295

00:15:57,915 --> 00:16:00,084

But that was essentially my impression.

296

00:16:00,084 --> 00:16:03,087

And so it caused a lot of this confusion.

297

00:16:03,170 --> 00:16:07,758

Besides the cultural confusion

that was happening in the culture shocks,

298

00:16:07,758 --> 00:16:11,345

like you mentioned,

I remember just struggling spiritually.

299

00:16:11,345 --> 00:16:12,805

And what what does this all mean?

300

00:16:14,181 --> 00:16:15,516

I don't ever remember

301

00:16:15,516 --> 00:16:20,646

doubting that God existed,

but there was just this inner turmoil,

302

00:16:21,188 --> 00:16:25,317

and I didn't have good, good answers

to these questions.

303

00:16:26,360 --> 00:16:30,072

Which I wish I did,

but I think that's part of the journey

304

00:16:30,364 --> 00:16:34,034

to where God has brought me now

so that I can look back and say,

305

00:16:34,952 --> 00:16:39,373

you know what's that

is what God brought you through.

306

00:16:39,748 --> 00:16:42,459

And so be grateful to God's,

307

00:16:42,459 --> 00:16:45,504

protection

and his merciful hand and his grace

308

00:16:45,629 --> 00:16:48,674

for bringing you through that situation

so that you can now see it

309

00:16:49,008 --> 00:16:53,178

and do your best to influence the context

310

00:16:53,178 --> 00:16:56,181

you come in, contact with to,

311

00:16:57,307 --> 00:17:00,310

make somebody else's life different

312

00:17:01,937 --> 00:17:04,606

So it sounds like

313

00:17:04,606 --> 00:17:08,027

some of this is just part of the,

the larger story of the challenge of

314

00:17:08,027 --> 00:17:11,697

integrating into a new culture,

a new country,

315

00:17:11,697 --> 00:17:14,867

new language, new everything really,

you know, and trying to find.

316

00:17:14,908 --> 00:17:15,367

Okay, like

317

00:17:16,326 --> 00:17:18,078

where do we plug in with church.

318

00:17:18,078 --> 00:17:19,079

What do we believe.

319

00:17:19,079 --> 00:17:21,373

You know, all of all of that.

320

00:17:21,373 --> 00:17:23,625

That's that's a lot, you know. Right.

321

00:17:23,625 --> 00:17:24,293

So again, you

322

00:17:24,293 --> 00:17:28,005

mentioned you bump into the Anabaptists

a bit in Ukraine before you come here.

323

00:17:28,464 --> 00:17:30,049

Okay? You come to the States.

324

00:17:30,049 --> 00:17:32,926

Where do you run into the Anabaptists

again then? Yes.

325

00:17:32,926 --> 00:17:35,888

Good question.

So that's the next part of the story.

326

00:17:35,888 --> 00:17:39,641

My dad, at some point,

I guess it was one year or two years

327

00:17:39,641 --> 00:17:42,770

and reached out to some of the contacts

328

00:17:42,770 --> 00:17:45,773

he made, back in Kiev

329

00:17:45,773 --> 00:17:50,486

and asked, well, are there any churches

like yours, people like yours over here?

330

00:17:50,486 --> 00:17:54,490

Because we were living in Delco,

there are not many Anabaptists in Delco.

331

00:17:54,490 --> 00:17:57,493

I don't know of any congregations

there in Delaware County.

332

00:17:58,660 --> 00:17:59,286

So, yeah.

333

00:17:59,286 --> 00:18:02,289

So yes, there are some,

but in a different part of the state.

334

00:18:02,289 --> 00:18:05,709

So I don't think we even had a vehicle,

our own vehicle at the time.

335

00:18:06,543 --> 00:18:09,338

This is not like the 2020s, right?

336

00:18:09,338 --> 00:18:13,592

Where as soon as immigrants come,

they can almost expect to have a vehicle

337

00:18:13,592 --> 00:18:16,595

ready for them. This is the late 1990s.

338

00:18:17,012 --> 00:18:20,015

Things were different back

then, especially in that area.

339

00:18:20,015 --> 00:18:23,560

So we found, a way to get over and visit,

340

00:18:24,061 --> 00:18:26,647

I think it was a Beachy congregation

341

00:18:26,647 --> 00:18:29,566

in central Pennsylvania somewhere,

342

00:18:29,566 --> 00:18:32,778

which was not really sustainable

to attend there long term.

343

00:18:33,278 --> 00:18:36,615

However, they did suggest

a similar congregation, Lancaster County,

344

00:18:37,032 --> 00:18:42,037

and we ended up attending there

regularly for several years.

345

00:18:42,454 --> 00:18:44,790

And this is where things get interesting.

346

00:18:44,790 --> 00:18:48,877

So even though we were doctrinally aligned

on so many issues

347

00:18:49,586 --> 00:18:55,217

at that time, cultural differences made

long term fellowship really challenging.

348

00:18:58,595 --> 00:19:01,598

For example,

the big issue was the mode of baptism.

349

00:19:01,849 --> 00:19:04,852

Pouring or sprinkling was what the

350

00:19:04,893 --> 00:19:08,605

unregenerate Orthodox

Church did to babies, right?

351

00:19:08,605 --> 00:19:11,608

That's the context.

352

00:19:11,984 --> 00:19:15,487

Man. Communion,

353

00:19:15,696 --> 00:19:18,740

the mode of communion, having it

not once a month

354

00:19:18,740 --> 00:19:21,952

like we were used to, but having it

once or twice a year was also different.

355

00:19:22,411 --> 00:19:23,787

Feet washing.

356

00:19:23,787 --> 00:19:27,457

Again,

the way we grew up, understanding that,

357

00:19:28,750 --> 00:19:33,755

that passage was that it was for that

culture where people walk barefoot.

358

00:19:34,131 --> 00:19:36,592

Needed it was it was a practical thing.

359

00:19:36,592 --> 00:19:38,802

And here people show up.

360

00:19:38,802 --> 00:19:41,096

Their feet are essentially clean, right?

361

00:19:41,096 --> 00:19:44,099

But they still hold on

to this thing of foot washing.

362

00:19:44,683 --> 00:19:48,395

Again, just these things give you

a little glimpse of what was going

363

00:19:48,395 --> 00:19:51,815

through the minds of people that come

from a completely different culture.

364

00:19:53,859 --> 00:19:56,820

Notwithstanding,

I have good memories of that time,

365

00:19:57,070 --> 00:20:01,116

Sunday school, Christmas caroling,

being invited to people's houses

366

00:20:01,116 --> 00:20:04,119

and the acquaintances we made,

they were helpful.

367

00:20:04,536 --> 00:20:06,663

They were helpful in our journey.

368

00:20:06,663 --> 00:20:09,333

So if anybody watching this, remembers

369

00:20:09,333 --> 00:20:12,794

the Kravitz family from that time,

attending Mien Road.

370

00:20:14,004 --> 00:20:15,505

I just want to say thank you.

371

00:20:15,505 --> 00:20:19,259

Thank you for the input

and the impact that you had to our family.

372

00:20:19,259 --> 00:20:20,552

It made a difference.

373

00:20:20,552 --> 00:20:24,932

We were kind of like a little blip on

the radar at that time, but I believe it.

374

00:20:25,307 --> 00:20:28,227

It really helped our family

kind of find some kind

375

00:20:28,227 --> 00:20:32,064

of grounding in a time

that was very confusing to us.

376

00:20:33,857 --> 00:20:36,401

So here, an obvious question can arise

377

00:20:36,401 --> 00:20:41,156

why didn't the Kravitz family start

attending one of the many Slavic churches

378

00:20:41,156 --> 00:20:43,742

that mushroomed in the States

during that time?

379

00:20:43,742 --> 00:20:45,869

Because, like I said, we weren't,

380

00:20:45,869 --> 00:20:48,705

the only immigrants that came

and a lot of that, a lot of those

381

00:20:48,705 --> 00:20:52,376

that came where were Christians

and they started their own congregations.

382

00:20:52,918 --> 00:20:55,879

And the response to that is,

my parents observed

383

00:20:55,879 --> 00:20:59,675

what they deemed to be drastic

changes in values among their peers.

384

00:21:01,593 --> 00:21:02,594

The freedom that

385

00:21:02,594 --> 00:21:06,848

America offered quickly affected

the practical Christian

386

00:21:06,848 --> 00:21:12,312

walk of former

persecuted people, of these immigrants.

387

00:21:12,646 --> 00:21:16,441

And it was yet another challenge

that my parents were faced with.

388

00:21:18,819 --> 00:21:19,528

I said it,

389

00:21:19,528 --> 00:21:22,781

and I'll say it again, that

this was just a confusing time for me.

390

00:21:22,781 --> 00:21:26,410

I never doubted the existence of God,

and I wanted to be a Christian,

391

00:21:26,660 --> 00:21:31,123

but it was a cycle of praying the sinner's

prayer, asking for forgiveness,

392

00:21:31,123 --> 00:21:35,002

falling back into sin,

doubting my salvation and repenting again.

393

00:21:35,002 --> 00:21:38,005

And just that cycle

that went on for a long time.

394

00:21:39,256 --> 00:21:43,760

So this, this is yeah this is a long

process from what I'm picking up, right?

395

00:21:43,760 --> 00:21:46,138

It's not like you,

you land in America and boom

396

00:21:46,138 --> 00:21:49,266

you're like integrated into a great church

and everything is good.

397

00:21:49,391 --> 00:21:52,311

Like there's it sounds like years right.

398

00:21:52,311 --> 00:21:55,689

Of I guess the word it comes to mind

is kind of circuitous, like you're

399

00:21:56,023 --> 00:21:56,857

okay, we're here.

400

00:21:56,857 --> 00:21:57,649

Okay. We're trying this.

401

00:21:57,649 --> 00:21:58,900

We visiting this church,

402

00:21:58,900 --> 00:22:03,071

we're trying to find a place to plug in

and a community

403

00:22:03,071 --> 00:22:07,451

that we can be a part of that matches

the convictions and beliefs

404

00:22:07,451 --> 00:22:08,785

that you all had, that

405

00:22:08,785 --> 00:22:11,204

you know, your parents

or the rest of your family had.

406

00:22:11,204 --> 00:22:14,207

So ultimately

then through this experience,

407

00:22:14,207 --> 00:22:17,210

if you want to talk more about that

experience, but then ultimately,

408

00:22:17,210 --> 00:22:19,254

how did you find a

place to plug into long term?

409

00:22:20,881 --> 00:22:21,590

Yes. Good.

410

00:22:21,590 --> 00:22:22,507

Good question.

411

00:22:22,507 --> 00:22:23,508

And I just want to say

412

00:22:23,508 --> 00:22:27,637

that I'm very thankful to God

that he kept working on my heart

413

00:22:27,637 --> 00:22:31,767

and not letting me go down the path

that many of my peers ended up going.

414

00:22:31,767 --> 00:22:33,560

That is by his grace alone.

415

00:22:33,560 --> 00:22:38,565

His mercy that that was looking back

now is so evident in my life.

416

00:22:39,524 --> 00:22:42,778

But the question that you ask requires

some additional context.

417

00:22:43,653 --> 00:22:46,907

We were now at a place

where we didn't feel at home with people

418

00:22:46,907 --> 00:22:48,075

from our ethnic background

419

00:22:48,075 --> 00:22:51,828

because of the compromises

that my parents saw happening.

420

00:22:52,245 --> 00:22:55,415

We certainly didn't fit

into the evangelical church because of,

421

00:22:55,999 --> 00:22:59,961

differences in beliefs

couldn't plug into the Mennonite church

422

00:22:59,961 --> 00:23:02,964

because of the cultural barriers

my parents were facing.

423

00:23:03,090 --> 00:23:05,550

And we were left

up in the air, so to speak.

424

00:23:06,676 --> 00:23:09,012

So in 1998, we met with

425

00:23:09,012 --> 00:23:12,015

who I will call the,

426

00:23:12,933 --> 00:23:16,061

family

centric conservative evangelical movement.

427

00:23:16,937 --> 00:23:19,898

Now, that's

not a label that you'll find anywhere.

428

00:23:20,107 --> 00:23:23,985

But looking back now, I'm not sure of a

better way to describe it.

429

00:23:24,861 --> 00:23:28,365

So in 1998,

we become acquainted with families

430

00:23:28,365 --> 00:23:31,368

that are part of this, this movement.

431

00:23:32,285 --> 00:23:35,288

And we surprisingly found

some shared values.

432

00:23:36,623 --> 00:23:39,626

We were beginning to explore

homeschooling at the time.

433

00:23:40,168 --> 00:23:41,920

Music was a big part of our life.

434

00:23:41,920 --> 00:23:44,798

Conservative, music,

435

00:23:44,798 --> 00:23:47,884

dress standards, modesty,

that, that kind of thing.

436

00:23:48,969 --> 00:23:55,475

And these families shared, these, values

and the the major emphasis, looking back

437

00:23:55,475 --> 00:23:59,855

now, was the family centric approach

to Christianity.

438

00:24:01,398 --> 00:24:06,278

And so despite doctrinal differences,

we focused on what we had in common.

439

00:24:06,486 --> 00:24:10,282

And we fellowship with those circles for,

I don’t

440

00:24:10,282 --> 00:24:15,370

know, a period of three, 4 or 5,

five years, that kind of time.

441

00:24:16,329 --> 00:24:17,956

And so these were fellowships

442

00:24:17,956 --> 00:24:21,793

that either met at a home

or in a formal place of worship,

443

00:24:23,044 --> 00:24:26,673

heavily

influenced by fundamentalism, Calvinist,

444

00:24:28,300 --> 00:24:31,344

IBLP and the teachings of Bill

Gothard, that,

445

00:24:31,678 --> 00:24:33,346

if you can imagine, that kind of a

446

00:24:33,346 --> 00:24:36,766

community, although it's a little bit

vague, it's hard to define it exactly.

447

00:24:36,766 --> 00:24:39,769

But that that kind of sphere of influence.

448

00:24:41,188 --> 00:24:42,606

And on the surface,

449

00:24:42,606 --> 00:24:45,609

things looked quite pleasant.

450

00:24:45,650 --> 00:24:49,279

The children were taught to respect

their parents, and others,

451

00:24:50,197 --> 00:24:53,950

families were large,

the music was conservative, etc.

452

00:24:54,618 --> 00:24:57,287

but as a famous, marketer once

453

00:24:57,287 --> 00:25:00,290

said, culture eats strategy for breakfast.

454

00:25:00,415 --> 00:25:03,585

And by that I mean that the values

and beliefs eventually catch up

455

00:25:04,211 --> 00:25:07,297

and reveal

what a philosophy has underneath.

456

00:25:08,089 --> 00:25:12,177

So after a few years of family,

we were close with sent

457

00:25:12,177 --> 00:25:16,348

their oldest son,

a good friend of mine to the Air Force.

458

00:25:17,390 --> 00:25:19,059

And we were just

459

00:25:19,059 --> 00:25:21,686

shocked how, again

460

00:25:21,686 --> 00:25:24,689

Nonresistance wasn't

something that was brought up often.

461

00:25:25,273 --> 00:25:27,400

It was just one of those things

that was kind of put aside

462

00:25:27,400 --> 00:25:29,778

because everything's going fine, right?

463

00:25:29,778 --> 00:25:31,947

We don't have a war,

464

00:25:31,947 --> 00:25:34,199

happening.

465

00:25:34,199 --> 00:25:35,867

This was before 911,

466

00:25:35,867 --> 00:25:38,954

before the invasion of Afghanistan

and that kind of thing.

467

00:25:39,913 --> 00:25:43,458

And he was this

young man was very pleasant,

468

00:25:43,458 --> 00:25:47,837

not ashamed of his faith, the kind of guy

that parents would consider a role model.

469

00:25:49,381 --> 00:25:51,299

However, once he got into the Air Force,

470

00:25:51,299 --> 00:25:54,302

his spiritual end came rather quickly.

471

00:25:54,553 --> 00:25:56,137

Drugs?

472

00:25:56,137 --> 00:25:57,889

I think it was a dishonorable discharge.

473

00:25:57,889 --> 00:26:01,226

Then marriage, then divorce,

and then prison again.

474

00:26:01,226 --> 00:26:05,480

And just that vicious cycle

and somebody that I was relatively close

475

00:26:05,480 --> 00:26:08,817

with just transformed unimaginably.

476

00:26:10,277 --> 00:26:13,113

And so that left

a serious impression on me.

477

00:26:13,113 --> 00:26:14,948

I was just like, how can this happen?

478

00:26:14,948 --> 00:26:18,952

The these were people we shared

spend a lot of time with.

479

00:26:19,452 --> 00:26:20,453

And how could that,

480

00:26:21,955 --> 00:26:23,206

how could that happen?

481

00:26:23,206 --> 00:26:27,127

Other families from that time experience

things like sexual abuse in a home

482

00:26:27,127 --> 00:26:31,006

and two fathers who were part of this

kind of circle of fellowship

483

00:26:31,006 --> 00:26:34,259

we were part of, eventually

met again in prison, of all places.

484

00:26:35,176 --> 00:26:38,179

So looking back now,

485

00:26:38,179 --> 00:26:40,765

I'm like, wow, what what was happening?

486

00:26:40,765 --> 00:26:41,933

What was happening?

487

00:26:41,933 --> 00:26:45,604

Although again, things on the surface

looked very nice and pleasant

488

00:26:45,604 --> 00:26:48,815

and, and modest and conservative and just

489

00:26:49,024 --> 00:26:52,027

things were okay.

490

00:26:52,277 --> 00:26:55,572

So then come the early 2000s

491

00:26:56,656 --> 00:27:01,244

and through these family

centric connections, we come in contact

492

00:27:01,244 --> 00:27:05,582

with the charity circles

as they're known in popular menno culture.

493

00:27:05,957 --> 00:27:06,583

Right.

494

00:27:06,583 --> 00:27:09,878

So the charity context

to give it to those,

495

00:27:10,337 --> 00:27:13,840

that may be listening

and are not aware of what's, what who who

496

00:27:13,840 --> 00:27:17,260

the charity circles are

is started by former evangelical minister

497

00:27:17,844 --> 00:27:19,429

and a former Amishman.

498

00:27:19,429 --> 00:27:22,682

So can you imagine those

two worlds coming together?

499

00:27:23,767 --> 00:27:25,977

And oddly enough,

500

00:27:25,977 --> 00:27:28,980

it was an expression of Christianity

that felt a lot like home.

501

00:27:29,230 --> 00:27:29,773

Yeah.

502

00:27:29,773 --> 00:27:32,776

So family focused promoters homeschooling,

503

00:27:33,234 --> 00:27:37,656

the Godly Home series, was

and still is, a big part of that.

504

00:27:38,114 --> 00:27:41,660

That community,

a strong relationship with Christ,

505

00:27:42,202 --> 00:27:45,580

believers, baptism

and a vibrant expression of faith.

506

00:27:45,747 --> 00:27:49,501

Those were the hallmarks of

of that charity movement,

507

00:27:50,210 --> 00:27:53,213

that come to mind

when I'm thinking about those times.

508

00:27:53,963 --> 00:27:58,802

And I would say that

this was my first conscious exposure

509

00:27:58,802 --> 00:28:01,930

to the concept of Kingdom Christianity.

510

00:28:03,640 --> 00:28:08,770

And So God was working on my heart

and I committed my life to him in my late

511

00:28:08,770 --> 00:28:13,566

teens, got baptized,

and the various charity Bible schools,

512

00:28:13,566 --> 00:28:15,110

which is essentially like a week

513

00:28:15,110 --> 00:28:17,570

where young people come together here

teaching and preaching,

514

00:28:17,570 --> 00:28:20,407

and there are evangelistic messages

in the evening.

515

00:28:20,407 --> 00:28:25,370

Those Bible schools really

shaped me spiritually. And

516

00:28:26,538 --> 00:28:28,289

just made me step over

517

00:28:28,289 --> 00:28:31,960

into the Kingdom

Christianity camp knowingly.

518

00:28:32,919 --> 00:28:35,922

Not by inertia, not by,

519

00:28:36,506 --> 00:28:39,342

tradition and not by culture,

but knowingly.

520

00:28:39,342 --> 00:28:40,677

And it still was a process.

521

00:28:40,677 --> 00:28:44,431

But I remember that that was

that was like a watershed moment.

522

00:28:45,557 --> 00:28:45,974

yeah.

523

00:28:45,974 --> 00:28:47,517

So you kind of one of the again

524

00:28:47,517 --> 00:28:51,062

one of the themes, it seems like

it keeps coming up is this is a journey.

525

00:28:51,229 --> 00:28:53,440

This is a process.

526

00:28:53,440 --> 00:28:56,317

Maybe it feels, I'm

guessing at the time felt

527

00:28:56,317 --> 00:28:59,696

kind of meandering and like,

how am I, you know, where are we going?

528

00:28:59,696 --> 00:29:00,280

And or maybe.

529

00:29:00,280 --> 00:29:03,324

Maybe here or here, like,

trying to find where

530

00:29:03,450 --> 00:29:06,703

where can we plug in and live out

what God wants us to, to live.

531

00:29:07,162 --> 00:29:10,331

But somewhere in this story, like,

because we had been talking before, we,

532

00:29:10,790 --> 00:29:11,541

turned the cameras on,

533

00:29:13,042 --> 00:29:16,045

that your

family ended up back in Ukraine again.

534

00:29:16,171 --> 00:29:19,340

So what what happened there

to where y'all went back?

535

00:29:20,759 --> 00:29:21,134

Yeah.

536

00:29:21,134 --> 00:29:24,012

That's, Good question.

537

00:29:24,012 --> 00:29:27,056

My dad being the visionary that he was,

there was some things

538

00:29:27,056 --> 00:29:30,977

he really appreciate about what he saw

in American Christianity,

539

00:29:31,811 --> 00:29:34,939

which resonated with some of the things

540

00:29:35,482 --> 00:29:38,818

we imagined America was before

we came over, which, you know,

541

00:29:38,818 --> 00:29:42,238

turned out not to be exactly true,

but there were good things.

542

00:29:42,238 --> 00:29:43,156

God's children were here.

543

00:29:43,156 --> 00:29:46,159

God was doing a work here,

and he liked what he saw in it.

544

00:29:46,159 --> 00:29:49,204

And he had this vision

of trying to take some of that

545

00:29:49,204 --> 00:29:52,207

back to our native Ukraine and say, hey,

you can,

546

00:29:52,248 --> 00:29:55,543

in his words, you can actually make it

to heaven from America.

547

00:29:56,586 --> 00:29:56,961

Right.

548

00:29:56,961 --> 00:30:00,048

It kind of seems funny now, but, again,

549

00:30:00,799 --> 00:30:03,259

what we thought of America as being

550

00:30:03,259 --> 00:30:06,346

and what it was like in

reality were two different worlds apart.

551

00:30:06,763 --> 00:30:10,308

And so, so that God put on his heart.

552

00:30:10,308 --> 00:30:14,062

And we went, back as a family to Ukraine.

553

00:30:14,687 --> 00:30:18,107

So we got involved with the church

our family was part of before immigrating

554

00:30:18,733 --> 00:30:23,446

and started reacquainting ourselves

with what I would call Slavic anabaptism

555

00:30:23,655 --> 00:30:28,034

while keeping in mind

the experiences we had in the States.

556

00:30:29,244 --> 00:30:32,247

So at this time, I'm

just going to fast forward a little bit.

557

00:30:32,247 --> 00:30:33,873

We were involved in various ministry

558

00:30:33,873 --> 00:30:36,835

opportunities with music

and that kind of thing.

559

00:30:36,835 --> 00:30:41,089

However,

I'm starting to connect more of these dots

560

00:30:41,089 --> 00:30:44,092

that I call Kingdom Christianity.

561

00:30:44,968 --> 00:30:47,637

And I'm, I'm analyzing

more of what's happening.

562

00:30:47,637 --> 00:30:49,973

Like, I've had lots of varied

and maybe you can say

563

00:30:49,973 --> 00:30:53,017

extreme experiences up until this time

when it comes to fellowship.

564

00:30:53,268 --> 00:30:57,021

And so I'm thinking about

about these concepts I'm observing.

565

00:30:57,772 --> 00:31:00,984

And I began to see how the teachings

566

00:31:00,984 --> 00:31:04,571

of Christ, though,

express differently in different cultures.

567

00:31:05,071 --> 00:31:08,074

They transcend culture.

568

00:31:09,325 --> 00:31:12,453

I also began seeing that compromises

569

00:31:12,453 --> 00:31:15,456

on these teachings never ends well.

570

00:31:17,000 --> 00:31:19,377

One of the circumstances from this time

571

00:31:19,377 --> 00:31:22,630

was the difficulties

our church and family experienced.

572

00:31:23,214 --> 00:31:27,886

Dad was pastoring at the time

and there was just some added stress.

573

00:31:28,511 --> 00:31:32,557

There was some division

and just overall, difficulties.

574

00:31:34,017 --> 00:31:35,101

And looking back, there

575

00:31:35,101 --> 00:31:38,563

are things from these years

I'm ashamed of,

576

00:31:39,147 --> 00:31:42,358

and they would be related

to following the teachings of Christ,

577

00:31:42,775 --> 00:31:46,571

even when circumstances pressed otherwise

or compelled otherwise.

578

00:31:47,155 --> 00:31:51,075

Things like brotherly love

in both interpersonal and inter

579

00:31:51,075 --> 00:31:53,411

church relationships.

580

00:31:53,411 --> 00:31:56,414

Are not values you want to compromise on.

581

00:31:57,540 --> 00:32:00,835

You used a term

that I want to go back to just briefly.

582

00:32:00,835 --> 00:32:03,838

You said the Slavic Anabaptists.

583

00:32:04,047 --> 00:32:04,881

Who are you talking about.

584

00:32:04,881 --> 00:32:06,341

In that case I like

585

00:32:06,341 --> 00:32:09,344

got to be honest, I don't know

if I've ever heard that term used.

586

00:32:09,385 --> 00:32:12,347

So who are these people

and how were you integrating in

587

00:32:12,347 --> 00:32:16,017

with this community of believers,

when you went back to Ukraine?

588

00:32:16,726 --> 00:32:18,603

Yeah, that's a good question.

589

00:32:18,603 --> 00:32:21,940

It's not, two terms

that you hear next to each other often,

590

00:32:22,357 --> 00:32:26,027

but what I mean is those that

take the teachings of Christ seriously.

591

00:32:26,569 --> 00:32:28,947

Things like, nonresistance.

592

00:32:28,947 --> 00:32:31,074

Things like of what?

593

00:32:31,074 --> 00:32:33,117

What to do with the teachings

of Calvinism.

594

00:32:33,117 --> 00:32:35,995

Right of eternal security question.

595

00:32:35,995 --> 00:32:38,539

What to do with divorce and remarriage?

596

00:32:38,539 --> 00:32:42,293

Those core and I'd say hard teachings

that,

597

00:32:42,961 --> 00:32:46,214

Christ presented when,

when he was here on earth.

598

00:32:47,340 --> 00:32:48,967

So when I say

599

00:32:48,967 --> 00:32:51,970

the term Anabaptist, that to me means,

600

00:32:52,887 --> 00:32:55,223

a group of people,

601

00:32:55,223 --> 00:32:58,935

communities

that want to ask those hard questions,

602

00:32:59,310 --> 00:33:02,313

they're saying,

what did Christ actually mean?

603

00:33:02,522 --> 00:33:06,734

And in the words of Dean Taylor, did

Jesus Christ actually mean what he said?

604

00:33:06,818 --> 00:33:08,444

Yeah.

605

00:33:08,444 --> 00:33:11,447

So when I say Anabaptist,

606

00:33:11,489 --> 00:33:14,492

I'm referring to those

that are asking these questions

607

00:33:14,534 --> 00:33:18,454

instead of finding ways

to explain them away, like a lot of,

608

00:33:18,997 --> 00:33:22,458

religious

currents are trying to do nowadays.

609

00:33:23,668 --> 00:33:24,210

That's that's.

610

00:33:24,210 --> 00:33:27,213

Helpful context.

611

00:33:27,213 --> 00:33:29,424

Because

612

00:33:29,424 --> 00:33:32,635

you also mentioned something earlier

that I think is another important piece

613

00:33:32,635 --> 00:33:35,638

about how these teachings

and these values, these things you were,

614

00:33:36,431 --> 00:33:39,684

learning and processing through,

go beyond culture.

615

00:33:39,684 --> 00:33:41,769

I can't remember your exact wording,

but something about it,

616

00:33:41,769 --> 00:33:44,522

this is this is not

this is beyond culture, transcendent.

617

00:33:45,815 --> 00:33:48,026

And it sounds like you were really seeing

618

00:33:48,026 --> 00:33:51,237

that when you go back to Ukraine,

you're seeing it in a different, setting.

619

00:33:51,237 --> 00:33:53,573

And noticing that I think that's an it

620

00:33:53,573 --> 00:33:56,576

that's an important piece,

you know, to note.

621

00:33:56,576 --> 00:34:00,204

It is kind of easy to think of things like

the Mennonites, the Amish, the whatever.

622

00:34:00,747 --> 00:34:02,040

Oh, that's that's just a culture.

623

00:34:02,040 --> 00:34:05,084

It's like it is a culture,

but there's other elements to it as well.

624

00:34:05,376 --> 00:34:09,505

And anyways, I think this Ukraine piece

is, is kind of significant.

625

00:34:09,505 --> 00:34:12,467

So y'all were back in Ukraine

for how long?

626

00:34:12,467 --> 00:34:17,305

We were back for about 6 or 7 years.

627

00:34:17,764 --> 00:34:23,394

And then where the story continues

is that being American citizens,

628

00:34:23,394 --> 00:34:27,315

we relied on getting stamps

in our passports that would allow us

629

00:34:27,315 --> 00:34:30,318

to stay in the country

for extended periods of time.

630

00:34:30,568 --> 00:34:33,946

However, after about six years,

the political disposition towards

631

00:34:33,946 --> 00:34:35,907

Americans changed somewhat.

632

00:34:35,907 --> 00:34:38,910

And there were some, yeah, political,

633

00:34:39,118 --> 00:34:42,497

happenings there at the time where,

part of the country

634

00:34:42,497 --> 00:34:46,250

wanted to integrate more with Europe,

where the other part was wanting to,

635

00:34:47,210 --> 00:34:50,088

align themselves closely with Russia.

636

00:34:50,088 --> 00:34:53,091

And eventually

that broke out into a full scale war,

637

00:34:53,174 --> 00:34:56,135

which I think everybody

is aware of by now.

638

00:34:56,135 --> 00:34:59,138

But part of those changes,

639

00:35:00,264 --> 00:35:02,600

was that we could not get our passports

640

00:35:02,600 --> 00:35:06,604

stamped, and be able to stay there

for extended periods of time.

641

00:35:06,896 --> 00:35:10,358

So that combination of circumstances

made it appear

642

00:35:10,358 --> 00:35:13,361

that God was closing the door

for us to remain there.

643

00:35:14,821 --> 00:35:19,450

So you end back up here in America

and again we're here in Pennsylvania.

644

00:35:19,450 --> 00:35:21,577

This is where you live.

645

00:35:21,577 --> 00:35:21,786

Yeah.

646

00:35:21,786 --> 00:35:27,166

Bring us up to the present day and kind of

reflect back along on this story too.

647

00:35:27,166 --> 00:35:30,169

And anything else

you want to add with, with that as well.

648

00:35:31,838 --> 00:35:32,130

Yeah.

649

00:35:32,130 --> 00:35:35,133

So we came back to the States,

I think it was

650

00:35:35,341 --> 00:35:38,219

the very end of 2011,

651

00:35:39,595 --> 00:35:40,012

and it

652

00:35:40,012 --> 00:35:45,476

was interesting to start evaluating

the events since our immigration in 1995,

653

00:35:45,476 --> 00:35:49,021

which next year at the time of this

recording will be 30 years.

654

00:35:49,021 --> 00:35:53,234

It's hard, hard to believe that,

and what sticks out in my mind

655

00:35:53,234 --> 00:35:56,571

is who and what stayed the same

656

00:35:57,071 --> 00:35:59,949

and who and what changed radically.

657

00:35:59,949 --> 00:36:02,285

I already shared some of those moments.

658

00:36:02,285 --> 00:36:06,080

And some of those experiences

that I just saw lots of radical change.

659

00:36:06,080 --> 00:36:09,083

And it, sad to say it wasn't good change.

660

00:36:09,792 --> 00:36:12,295

And one of the things

that really sticks out in my mind

661

00:36:12,295 --> 00:36:15,882

is that those that kept

the teachings of Christ,

662

00:36:16,924 --> 00:36:19,135

we are closer with today,

663

00:36:19,135 --> 00:36:23,431

those who did not place a high value

on these Kingdom teachings.

664

00:36:24,056 --> 00:36:27,143

We are at a very different

place today, 30 years later,

665

00:36:29,312 --> 00:36:30,021

Well, so I

666

00:36:30,021 --> 00:36:33,566

think we're probably going to just spend

a whole nother episode on this very topic.

667

00:36:33,816 --> 00:36:37,069

But a back to that

Slavic Anabaptist, thing.

668

00:36:37,904 --> 00:36:39,906

It does seem there's

669

00:36:39,906 --> 00:36:43,159

an impression or it's easy to think,

oh, well, you know, the Anabaptists,

670

00:36:43,159 --> 00:36:47,330

it's like a North American phenomenon,

and it's kind of unique, to here.

671

00:36:47,330 --> 00:36:51,042

And it doesn't really have effects

elsewhere around the world.

672

00:36:52,043 --> 00:36:55,129

And you're basically wanting to make

the point of like, from your experience,

673

00:36:55,421 --> 00:36:57,048

that was not the case.

674

00:36:57,048 --> 00:36:59,759

Is that a fair assessment?

675

00:36:59,759 --> 00:37:00,009

Yeah.

676

00:37:00,009 --> 00:37:02,970

So again, the context there is that

677

00:37:03,095 --> 00:37:06,265

there were those, who kept the faith

678

00:37:06,641 --> 00:37:09,393

during the, communist regime,

679

00:37:09,393 --> 00:37:12,396

and they're the ones that

680

00:37:12,772 --> 00:37:15,775

really, align themselves

with the teachings of Christ

681

00:37:15,983 --> 00:37:19,445

and not with what the government

was trying to dictate onto them.

682

00:37:19,862 --> 00:37:22,073

And out of that grew out

683

00:37:23,115 --> 00:37:24,700

a form of anabaptism.

684

00:37:24,700 --> 00:37:27,662

And so that's why

I use Slavic Anabaptists.

685

00:37:28,120 --> 00:37:30,414

Because if you would look

at their materials

686

00:37:30,414 --> 00:37:31,624

and writings today, you will see.

687

00:37:31,624 --> 00:37:32,166

You know what?

688

00:37:32,166 --> 00:37:35,169

There's a lot we have in common here.

689

00:37:35,253 --> 00:37:39,507

I believe that God does his work

in whatever context

690

00:37:39,507 --> 00:37:40,967

he is allowed to do his work.

691

00:37:40,967 --> 00:37:43,970

And with the,

692

00:37:44,011 --> 00:37:47,223

ready accessibility we have to

the scriptures and people in general

693

00:37:47,348 --> 00:37:51,477

have to the scriptures, somebody somewhere

is bound to be reading these words.

694

00:37:51,477 --> 00:37:54,480

And again, like Dean Taylor

and his wife were,

695

00:37:55,022 --> 00:37:58,734

finishing up the day and reading the Bible

as they were in the military

696

00:37:59,026 --> 00:38:01,612

and asking, what? What do we do with this?

697

00:38:01,612 --> 00:38:03,572

When Jesus says, love your enemies?

698

00:38:03,572 --> 00:38:06,242

Well, what do we do with this?

699

00:38:06,242 --> 00:38:08,911

That is interesting

because actually going back

700

00:38:08,911 --> 00:38:11,914

to Dean, we've interviewed him

a few times on this podcast.

701

00:38:11,956 --> 00:38:13,291

And people can check that out

if they want.

702

00:38:13,291 --> 00:38:18,421

But you know, he would have been there

when the Berlin Wall came down in 89.

703

00:38:18,421 --> 00:38:20,464

So I guess, I don't know,

that would have been in Germany.

704

00:38:20,464 --> 00:38:23,884

So not super close to where you were,

but it's just interesting how these pieces

705

00:38:23,884 --> 00:38:28,723

come together and God moves

in, in all kinds of mysterious ways,

706

00:38:29,724 --> 00:38:30,099

you know,

707

00:38:30,099 --> 00:38:33,102

and, and often

we can't always see that until after,

708

00:38:33,102 --> 00:38:36,605

and that's the one piece as well.

709

00:38:36,605 --> 00:38:40,985

You've had such a range of experience,

living in different, different cultures

710

00:38:40,985 --> 00:38:44,947

and trying to figure out, okay,

what churches do we integrate with?

711

00:38:44,947 --> 00:38:47,950

How do we plug into a community and,

and all of these things?

712

00:38:48,701 --> 00:38:52,288

So as we kind of circle it back around,

what's the piece

713

00:38:52,288 --> 00:38:55,458

you like to leave with our audience

as they consider this story?

714

00:38:56,167 --> 00:38:59,337

So as you say that an interesting

turn of events happened

715

00:38:59,337 --> 00:39:03,382

about two years ago that made it

feel like things came full circle.

716

00:39:03,382 --> 00:39:07,595

And this, meandering path

that our family has taken

717

00:39:08,095 --> 00:39:11,432

and that is that one of my brothers

got married to a girl whose family

718

00:39:11,432 --> 00:39:14,685

we first met when we attended

that beachy church in the late 90s.

719

00:39:14,685 --> 00:39:16,437

For those few years.

720

00:39:16,437 --> 00:39:19,899

And to me is just like,

wow for things to get

721

00:39:19,899 --> 00:39:23,152

reestablished and reconnected in that way.

722

00:39:23,778 --> 00:39:25,404

To me, that's just amazing.

723

00:39:26,739 --> 00:39:29,075

All the pieces kind of coming together

right.

724

00:39:29,075 --> 00:39:30,076

Yeah.

725

00:39:30,076 --> 00:39:32,828

Is there a word of encouragement

you like to leave

726

00:39:32,828 --> 00:39:36,791

with people who are on their own journey,

you know, they're searching for.

727

00:39:37,166 --> 00:39:39,585

Where's the community

that I can plug into?

728

00:39:39,585 --> 00:39:42,338

I'm trying to find a church,

you know, or I have these beliefs.

729

00:39:42,338 --> 00:39:43,631

I'm not sure what to do about that.

730

00:39:43,631 --> 00:39:46,509

How do I live these things out?

I mean, these things are hard, right?

731

00:39:46,509 --> 00:39:46,717

Yeah.

732

00:39:46,717 --> 00:39:49,387

What's what's some encouragement

you'd like to leave with them?

733

00:39:49,387 --> 00:39:49,762

Yeah.

734

00:39:49,762 --> 00:39:54,183

So the big thing that sticks out in

my mind is that ideas have consequences.

735

00:39:54,934 --> 00:39:58,270

Following

the teachings of Christ has consequences,

736

00:39:58,729 --> 00:40:03,442

and not following the teachings of Christ

has consequences.

737

00:40:04,193 --> 00:40:07,363

And so it's almost a way of,

choosing your hard

738

00:40:07,780 --> 00:40:10,449

what hard are you going to choose?

739

00:40:10,449 --> 00:40:15,162

So for those who are being exposed

to these Kingdom values

740

00:40:15,287 --> 00:40:19,166

and are looking at

how they can serve Christ

741

00:40:19,166 --> 00:40:23,087

and make him Lord

and Savior, of their life,

742

00:40:23,629 --> 00:40:27,133

I would just say that

you may have to make some hard choices

743

00:40:27,633 --> 00:40:31,220

when it comes to, who you fellowship with,

744

00:40:31,971 --> 00:40:36,434

what kind of circumstances you place

your family or those entrusted to you.

745

00:40:36,434 --> 00:40:41,063

And it may require moving,

something that I found in the States

746

00:40:41,063 --> 00:40:44,191

is there's

this spirit of independence, right?

747

00:40:44,191 --> 00:40:44,567

It's,

748

00:40:46,902 --> 00:40:48,195

it gets everywhere.

749

00:40:48,195 --> 00:40:49,613

Not just the politics.

750

00:40:49,613 --> 00:40:54,201

Sometimes, the Anabaptists like to think,

well, separation of church and state.

751

00:40:54,201 --> 00:40:59,415

That's very clear cut, but it's more

subtle than a lot of people would think.

752

00:40:59,707 --> 00:40:59,957

Right.

753

00:40:59,957 --> 00:41:04,086

There's always this temptation

to get politically involved and eventually

754

00:41:04,211 --> 00:41:06,714

turn to politics as a solution.

755

00:41:06,714 --> 00:41:09,091

Or other distractions

such as getting caught up

756

00:41:09,091 --> 00:41:13,304

with with, sports and,

and the whole the entertainment world.

757

00:41:14,054 --> 00:41:17,057

And that's a distraction

that will steal your time and,

758

00:41:17,683 --> 00:41:21,187

can cause you

to turn your sight off of Christ.

759

00:41:21,770 --> 00:41:27,318

But at the end of the day, I think God

will put his children in front of choices

760

00:41:27,651 --> 00:41:30,654

that they need to make,

that they need to take ownership of

761

00:41:31,197 --> 00:41:34,033

and some of those choices

762

00:41:34,033 --> 00:41:35,159

may be hard.

763

00:41:35,159 --> 00:41:39,079

Some of those choices may not fit into

the culture you grew up with.

764

00:41:40,247 --> 00:41:41,957

Some of those choices.

765

00:41:41,957 --> 00:41:45,127