[00:00:00] Hannah: Hello and welcome back to the awfully quiet podcast today was such an exciting early morning for me because I got to speak to one of my bucket list guests on the podcast. It was such an early morning because she's based in Australia and aside from all the prep and pre interview scaries that go into an experience like that for me, it's also one of those pinch me moments.

It's where I get to have a conversation with someone at the other end of the world who has been inspiring and motivating me with her work for years. I got Jessica Williamson on the podcast today. She's a business and mindset mentor, speaker, and author of the book, Unstoppable Success. An overall advocate for delusional, illogical goals, playing in fantasy land as she calls it, and removing all limits to what you can achieve.

She's done that many, many times herself, having founded and run five businesses across different industries and business models in the past eight years. She is a sought after speaker. She's recently been on the TEDx stage. and wrote her own book. Now, when you hear about someone like that, it's so easy to say, well, it all comes natural to them.

And they were really, really lucky and privileged to have achieved such success. But with Jess, it's different. Just when started as a shy and quiet introvert, and the more she leaned into her quiet personality, the better and more successful she got. I honestly couldn't wish for a better role model and example for how being awfully quiet, And owning your personality can take you places.

I am going to have everyone in my world listen to this episode, and I hope you'll do the same. Now, without further ado, let's dive into the interview. All right. Jess, thank you so much for joining me today and welcome to the awfully quiet podcast.

[00:02:10] Jessica: Oh, thank you so much. Honestly, I was so excited when you reached out. So I'm looking forward to this.

[00:02:16] Hannah: I am thrilled to have you here and I actually started following your journey way back when it was still focused on projector work. And you have always been on my secret delusional podcast guest list and now here we are. So I'm really, really happy.

And, where I want to start is with your story and career journey, which I love for two reasons in particular.

So one, it's an unconventional career and that's what I really, really love. And two is you also resonate with the introverted experience and being really ambitious and driven at the same time. So talk to me about your career story and what got you where you are today and how your introversion might have helped you with that too.

[00:03:04] Jessica: Okay. I'm going to keep this as short as possible. Otherwise we will be here all day. But basically I've kind of crammed a normal person's like 30 year journey into the past eight years. And so I started back in my career when I had a job, I used to work in digital marketing, but I always knew I was, you know, Capable of more.

And I knew I wanted to do my own business. So when I was 22 years old, I started my first business, which was a swimwear brand, and I grew and scaled that globally, worked with some incredible influences, had warehouses all over the world. And so I eventually have sold that company now, but then. Once I was on the entrepreneurial journey, I got like this addiction for business and opportunities.

And so I started. Five, five businesses by 2019, I had five that I was running all at once and very quickly hit burnout and realized that that wasn't necessarily my idea of success. But I guess how introversion plays a part in that was when I started my first business, I was beyond shy. I didn't want anybody to know I existed.

I didn't even put my name on the about me page because I knew what I was capable of, but I just didn't want anyone to know it was me. And so a lot of people were shocked to hear that. If you look on my social media, I am speaking on stages and I did a TEDx talk and I got my book with my face smack bang on the cover with my name across the

[00:04:51] Hannah: Beautiful cover.

[00:04:51] Jessica: the country.

Yeah, thank you. And it's been a journey to really owning my confidence. And for so long, I thought that introversion meant that. I just have to fly under the radar and I don't get to stand out. And obviously the definition of being an introvert is we need a lot of alone time and we recharge and things like that.

But I was also very, very shy and, you know, no one would notice me in a room and things like that, that I always thought were a massive. Negative trait. And I always actually thought that in order to be noticed or taken seriously, I need to be louder, but I've learned that there is so much power in being quieter, being an introvert, and that's probably been a massive part of my success journey.

[00:05:47] Hannah: I love that so much that you're saying that and that you didn't really have to change in order to be seen and become noticed, or you didn't have to make yourself louder, but, um, could leverage your introversion. You could leverage who you were. in order to achieve the success that you have today. So that is beautiful.

I think that you once even shared online that you were being underestimated as the, as the shy girl, you said, and, even getting rejected for jobs because you were perceived as too quiet and you meant now mentioned some of that. And. Obviously that is exactly the kind of conversation I want to have on the Awfully Quiet podcast.

So how did you deal with that? How did you, you know, how did you take that feedback and what would you recommend introverts do when they receive feedback like that?

[00:06:33] Jessica: Yeah. It frustrates me, you know, because I was more than qualified for every job interview that I went for. I did so many internships and in Australia, internships are not really something people even do. So they go to university and then they expect. That there is going to get handed a job. And I was seeing all of these people who were not the best fit for the job, we'll just say, but they would get it because they would go in and they were able to chat a lot of bullshit in my eyes.

Like they could talk the talk, they could say the right things. They came in loud and they were like great. You're confident, we think you're going to be good at the job. Whereas, you know, obviously over time, I've also built my confidence as well, but they would take my quietness as a lack of. Capability, and it's just the complete opposite.

So actually, when I hire people or when I'm looking for people to give opportunities for, I actually look past the loudness because what I've found is sometimes the loudness is a mask for. Not being as capable, not always, but you can usually see through it, but not everyone's up to speed with that. And so with the feedback at the time, I was like 20 years old, so I didn't have the emotional intelligence to take it.

So I took it on as I'm not loud enough. How can I be louder? And we all know that that never works. People are like, Oh, something feels off about this person. Like if I was trying to be louder, would probably repel them even more. And so what I realize now is that there is so much. So much power in being quietly confident.

And I recently had someone from my old job, send me a message on LinkedIn saying, Hey, Jess, congrats on all the success. They saw my book tour, me on TV, all of that cool stuff. And they were like, congrats on all the success. I never would have imagined quiet little Jess in the corner, creating this success.

And they were obviously meaning it as a compliment, but I was like, No, this is everything that is wrong with society and the perception of being quieter. And now I actually see it as a superpower. I'm like, bring it on, underestimate me because like, I'm going to be so far past you that you didn't even see me coming.

And so I actually was so excited getting that message. I was like, racked up laughing because I was like, this is amazing. And this is exactly what I want you to think because I'm going to just. surpass what you even think. Now that's the difference though, with when I was seeking a job versus being an entrepreneur is if you're trying to get a job, unless someone says, hello, you can have this job, you can't really surpass them.

And so that's actually why I love being an entrepreneur because I am the only person that needs to give myself permission to succeed. I go out there and make my own opportunities versus waiting for someone else to say, here's your permission slip. So I don't know what my advice would be around, honestly, getting a job other than start to appreciate what your superpowers are.

And if they're not, Talking nonsense and being the loudest one in the room, look for your superpowers and actually say that in the job interviews, you can acknowledge, Hey, I'm not going to be the loudest one in the room, but what I am great at is getting shit done. I am a great worker. I am like, you know, attentive.

I actually listen. I don't just talk, I listen and I will do, you know, my best. And so when you can appreciate more of what your superpowers are and your strengths, you can actually play more to your strengths rather than trying to feel the things that you think are a problem. Yeah.

[00:10:47] Hannah: that. And I feel like everybody can just save that and say exactly that at their next job interview and really land because it's such an obvious 1 for us introverts, but it really isn't for the outside world as opposed to what are all of our strength. And what do we really bring to the table?

Other than. You know, we're not being loud. So I love that. And I also really resonate with the sentiment of being underestimated because. I always liked when that happened in my career because I was always, I always knew better. and whenever somebody would question, I was like, you know, is she any good?

not really heard anything about her. She's not talking so much about, you know, what she does. And so that was always a really nice place for me to be in. And you reflect that in the same way in terms of like, oh, there's so much power in being underestimated and you can cook them wrong. It's actually fun.

I

would you say though that. This, idea of being quietly confident, do you think there's more room for that in an entrepreneurial world, in a world where you get to take some of your own own decisions and be the one giving permission as opposed to in the corporate world?

[00:11:59] Jessica: mean, yes, I know there's pros and cons of both, right? It depends what your goals are. So if we're thinking about the corporate world, if you want to get a job, you need someone to say, here's the job offer, but at the same time, you can go in and ask for what you want. And so actually when I got. One of the last jobs I had, I haven't had a job in like nine years, but when I, when I got that job, the way that I got that job will be mind blowing.

So I'm going to just quickly tell this story for anyone on that side is. I knew I was so passionate about digital marketing and I had applied for this role that was about communications. It wasn't really what I wanted. And so. I decided what I wanted first. I was like, I want a digital marketing role. I'm going to go for this interview anyway.

And then when I went in, they asked me like, what are you passionate about? And I got to speak all day. And they felt my energy because I was like, I am obsessed with digital marketing and they were like, Hmm. Interesting. And so over three months, I had to wait three months. They actually created a whole new role for me to fit me into the organization in a digital marketing role that didn't exist before because they felt my energy behind it.

So you don't always have to be the loudest, but when you. One, take your power back first. Don't say, I'll wait and see what they give me. It's like, I'm, I want this job and I am going to come from that energy. You'll be so much more likely to be heard and get what you want when it comes from that genuine place.

But when we look at the entrepreneurial side, the pro is. No one has to give you permission, but it's scary to give yourself permission. So I had to go out and pitch myself, say, hello, I would love this opportunity. Can I have it? And you're going to be met with a lot of no's and it's knowing that it's okay to face rejection and to pick yourself up and persevere.

That is the biggest challenge is that by being on the entrepreneurial side, you're way more visible. Which is usually a big fear. there's a lot more opportunity for judgment, particularly because I evolved into a personal brand. If someone doesn't like my business, it's me personally. And so for me, it was really, I had to do the deep, you know, work to find that inner confidence in owning the parts of me that I had rejected and said, we're not.

And so when I did that, you become unstoppable, regardless of how loud or, you know, crazy you are.

[00:15:00] Hannah: Yeah, I really like that. especially the sentiment of not. Not trying to fit the mold, but just kind of going out and saying what it is that you want and what you're out there to get. And I feel like you're the expert of doing this or the queen of doing this, because there are a lot of things that you go out there and get.

And I think your book, is, you know, testament to that. you just mentioned it. Unstoppable success is what the book is called. And. It's what I really want to touch on because for me as an introvert, I always felt myself tiptoeing around the word success and about voicing that I wanted success because it always feels like, obviously it feels bold, but it also feels like it's something that I wanted to hold back for fear of being judged for it.

And. I want to talk about that, you know, fear of failure and fear of success later on. But how do you feel about success? What does success mean to you now? And how do you go out and say that you want success without being judged? Yeah,

[00:16:11] Jessica: claim it. I think that the biggest piece around success is deciding what success means to you. Now, society tells us success needs to look a certain way, maybe your family. told you success should look a certain way. and so it's really removing all societal conditioning, all expectations from what other people decide success is, and really asking yourself, if I feel Well, my most successful, what would that look like?

And for me, that looks like having the freedom and flexibility to go to the beach on a Tuesday and traveling whenever I want, without worrying about how I'm going to pay for it without, you know, having the stress of money and. Being able to have both freedom, flexibility, fun, family, love, calm, nervous system, and getting to say, I also want huge levels of wealth and getting to be abundant and building a really successful business.

And so if you can remove all layers of what you think is possible and decide what that is for you, then if you put it out there, And someone says that's wrong. It doesn't matter because that's your version of success. I think sometimes we have fear of saying, I want this because we think other people will disagree, which they will.

But if you know that that is definitely your idea, doesn't matter if they disagree cause it's not their version of success. And so I think that's where we can get a little bit unsure is when we're not clear on what we actually want.

[00:17:57] Hannah: that's really true. And I think it can be really hard to find out. So what I want to know from you is. Any of your tips around finding out what that version of success looks like for everyone, especially for my audience, because I think we see so much online of what we, you know, admire and believe could potentially be our version of success, or we see others in the corporate world who are really thriving.

But what I often find is that what, you know, what looks good from the outside is not always what. You know, you really, really want, and we've seen that happening with, you know, sometimes when you, when you, you think you're working towards a dream job, and I've had that in my corporate career where I thought, well, that job sounds so, so good to me.

I think I'll be thriving in that job. And then you end up getting the job and you're like, it's not really what I wanted. So how do we really make sure that we know what our version of success is? apart from everything that we're perceiving in the outside

[00:18:57] Jessica: Yeah, there's some deep soul searching. And obviously like, as we go through life, sometimes we think one version of success. Like for me, I started my five businesses and I was like thriving money, you know, success, accolades. I was on a plane every three weeks. And then I was like, this ain't. Success. This is not my version.

Like I'm burnt out. I'm, you know, all of these things. And so sometimes it's trial and error, but one really powerful activity that I usually do with my clients is really digging deep to figure out what your core values are. And again, it's like, okay, but like, what are they? And a lot of people just say, choose your values.

Is it friendship? Is it money? Is it, you know? Accolades? What is it? But we don't usually consciously know. It's like this subconscious inner knowing. And so I've just. I don't have it available, but I've decided that I'm just going to give you the worksheet. If anyone listening wants access to the worksheet, send me a DM on Instagram, just write values worksheet, and I will just send it to you.

You don't have to enter your email or anything. Just let me know. I need it. Separate the worksheets so you can have it. But I really want to give you that because it's a really powerful method that I've created to truly lay out your core values and not just in a way of here's a list, choose the values that you think are the best.

This is going to really get you digging deep. and it's a really powerful journaling activity. And so that will give you clarity. On what success means to you as well, because when success aligns with your values and you achieve it, you actually feel these deep sense of fulfillment versus if you were to achieve or gain other things, you're like, why does this not feel right?

Something I was meant to be happy now. And it's like, Oh, why am I not happy that I've reached this success? And it's usually because it doesn't align with your deepest core values as well.

[00:21:10] Hannah: Yeah, I really, really appreciate that because I think most of the exercises out there tend to be, here's a list of values, choose the ones that resonate most

[00:21:18] Jessica: huh.

[00:21:18] Hannah: and, I agree. It's a tough exercise to like really get down to here's what's really, really important to me. And I reckon they change over time.

So

[00:21:28] Jessica: Well, they definitely do change, like, particularly if you go through Big Life. Moments, like if you become a mother or you move countries, or you have a breakup, like your values are sometimes going to change, but you will usually have some pretty core ones that will stick with you. Like my biggest value is, Adventure, and I just cannot do the same thing every day.

Like I don't have a morning routine cause I cannot do the same thing. I just can't. And so adventure is a big one for me. And I get that through travel, but also even when I'm not traveling, I noticed that when I I haven't gone out for an adventure or explored a new area that I haven't been to or gone for a hike or something like that.

I start to feel a little bit flat. And so when I can infuse more of that into my daily life as well, it keeps me on track and like makes me feel my best. Yeah,

[00:22:31] Hannah: here's what needs to be true for me to thrive and be happy. And this is part of what I need to make sure I weave into my week, into my day to day. Yeah, I really like that. Thank you so much. so when it comes to, success, another concept that you talk about in the book is obviously the fear of failure.

And we all know that we know the fear of being rejected the fear of being, you know, told no, and we've touched on that briefly, but you're also talking about the fear of failure. Of success and how that can trip us up sometimes. And initially I was like, well, you know, what, what's the fear of success?

Like, you know, I don't have, I'm not afraid of success, but, I really felt called out when I read through it, because I think it is true that, you know, we can sometimes be afraid of what might happen when we get the thing. That we think we want. And so you kind of saying that, sometimes you're not where you want to be yet because you're afraid of it or because subconsciously you don't really want it.

it was really, really powerful. So talk to me about the fear of success, how that can show up. What different fears can there be? How do we tackle that? Yeah. Yeah.

[00:23:49] Jessica: big one. So I'll, I'll key, I'll give you guys some really valuable pieces out of that. And the reason why I actually believe that ambitious women are more afraid of success than they are of failure is because failure is not a thing for ambitious women. Right. If we think about it, we have really big goals that are set at a high standard.

And we have a fear of failure. Well, if we try really hard and it doesn't work out, we're just going to end up where we are right now.

[00:24:23] Hannah: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:24:26] Jessica: in our idea of failure from that starting point is that's our minimum. Like we're not going anywhere else. This is our minimum. And so that is actually the comfort zone.

The uncomfortable zone is what if we actually create the success we want? And so. Why this is hard a concept to grasp is because we all set goals. We all are like, of course, I'd love more money. Of course, I want more success. I want the celebration. I want the awards. I want, you know, all of the things that we get with success and you've set your goals.

And it's like amazing and you work towards it. You're like, I'm taking action, but we're not aware of what's happening subconsciously because there is a lot of societal conditioning around having more wealth. If you have more wealth, then you have more responsibility. If you have more wealth, then you have to know how to manage your money.

If you have more wealth, then maybe you have family members. Expecting you to pay for everything. And that feels shitty, right? And so there's a lot that comes with wealth, but even just as success, the more successful you become, the more expectations placed on you to uphold those standards, what if you're having a bad day?

No, you can't have a bad day because now you're the CEO. You can't have a bad day because now you're a celebrity or you're visible, or you're meant to be supporting other people. And so. just the fear of being seen, particularly as introverts, the fear of being seen is major, but guess what, in order to get that promotion at work, or, you know, if you're an entrepreneur striving for a bigger thing, you have to be seen on social media.

You have to be seen on stages. You have to be seen speaking to, you know, the leadership teams and. Judgment comes with that because someone's going to hate what you've got to say. And so there are so many things that we're not even aware of that subconsciously your mind is like, don't worry, I got you.

Don't worry. We're going to cap your success. You'd never have to deal with that. Don't worry. I'll keep you safe. And so it's just keeping you stuck in that nice comfort zone where you know how to handle it. You know how to handle those things coming your way. And so I was speaking to a client yesterday, actually, and she's starting to create more money in her business.

And she did a meditation and she was like, Oh my gosh, I was afraid that my family. Will expect me to pay for everything. Like if I have way more money than them, why shouldn't I pay for everything? You know, why shouldn't I? But it's. The energy behind it, like, we don't want to carry the weight of our whole friends or family being like, don't worry, they will pay for it.

Can I please have some money? And it feels shitty because it's like, you're meant to love me. And like, that's my money that I worked hard for. Like, I'm going to be generous with it, but we then have to hold the expectations of people getting upset if we don't. Give them a piece of it. And so there are so many different narratives that can play out.

and it goes so deep. There are so many different fears that can come with it, but hopefully that just gives you a little bit of a sense of the idea of fear of success, and maybe if it starts to. You know, spark something, just explore it. Like what could be scary at that next level? And how might I be just keeping myself safe by keeping myself here stuck in procrastination or overwhelm so that we don't get success.

[00:28:25] Hannah: I really resonate with some of these and I think, any introvert will agree that the fear of being seen as real, but

[00:28:33] Jessica: Mm.

[00:28:34] Hannah: you know, the fear of getting more responsibility at work, the fear of, getting up a higher up position. And. Yeah. potentially, you know, around the fact that obviously, that is potentially going to mean that we need to step out of our comfort zones more often.

does it interfere with our introversion if I'm getting to that CEO position? will I still be able to be myself if

[00:28:58] Jessica: Mm hmm.

[00:28:59] Hannah: if I score one of these positions? And so I can honestly imagine that a lot of introverts lean back. And hold back from getting promoted from going for career opportunities from potentially starting their own businesses from stepping into entrepreneurship for fear that is going to interfere with their introversion with their personalities.

so once you've identified a feel like that. What's the next step? How do you, how do you deal with that? How do you, almost like tackle that fear, move through it?

[00:29:32] Jessica: Yeah, so, I mean, there is a lot, this, this is like a whole psychology, chat here. There is a lot of different steps, but honestly, if you can just identify what you are keeping yourself safe from, is the first step because until we can become aware, we're just going to keep coming up against these roadblocks and we're not going to know why. And so by just. It's being aware. Is it the fear of judgment? Is it the fear of being seen? Is it the fear of having to be more bossy and assertive? Is it the fear that when you have more expectation, you might end up burnt out? Like there are so many different things and it's going to be different for everyone.

So once you've identified what that fear might be. We can work on rewiring it. We like, I have a lot of different modalities and methods that I work through with my clients. But just to give you guys one thing that you can take away is. In every single moment throughout your day, you have two choices. One choice is you can continue doing what you've always done, either not speaking up, not asking for what you want, not putting yourself out there, not taking the action or two.

You can say, I am choosing a new path today, and even though it's scary, I'm going to speak up. I'm going to ask for what I want. I'm going to get out of my comfort zone and get that success that I want. And so every time we do that, we're not going to do it every time because we've I've been operating on autopilot so much that sometimes we fall into the old habits, but if we can just start to shift it every so often, what it actually does is it builds our self trust, it builds our self confidence because we did the scary thing and we didn't die.

So what that does is it shows our subconscious mind that it's safe for us to ask for what we want. It's safe for us to do these scary things and it's actually okay. And the more we do that, the more self trust we build, the more inner confidence we build, and the more we're able to create a level of safety.

In holding that level of success. That's exactly how I built up my confidence with public speaking. In the past, I never would have been here doing this podcast right now. Cause I had no idea what we were going to speak about. And yet here I am, I'm able to speak on whatever it is that you ask me with confidence, with conviction, but I didn't start here.

The very first video I did on Instagram, I forgot what my name was. I was so nervous. I said, hi, everyone. My name is. And then I stopped it and that was it, and it was live, so everyone could see it. but I did that. Wasn't great, but then next time I did it again, and then next time I did it again, and then I spoke at an event and then I, you know, it wasn't the best, but every time I did that, I built up confidence and I built up my own inner self trust.

And so if we can build out inner self confidence and trust, that is your biggest superpower as an introvert, because it's not about being externally confident or the loudest, because quite often those people are not confident at all. They're just loud. is about building this inner self trust that, you know, you're capable of being.

Of whatever it is that you put your mind to, and that is something no one can take away from you.

[00:33:16] Hannah: love that. And also the fact that it is a journey, that it is a step by step sometimes when we think about the things that we might be afraid would happen, and we build the trust towards it step by step as opposed to taking that big, big leap that is going to overwhelm us. So. you know, what I'm almost thinking is that in your journey in particular, it looks like the more you welcomed in things in your career that, were bigger, that were bolder, that were more aligned with your vision and your version of success.

The more you could become, you know, your true personality, your true self, and you almost amplified that, and you didn't need to become anyone else. You became more of yourself, and that's really, really beautiful. Would you agree that you almost like chased being, you know, more of yourself as opposed to hiding those parts of you?

Hmm.

[00:34:13] Jessica: Yeah. And it took me a long time to realize, like, honestly, up until a few years ago, I still was thinking, how do I be louder when I go on the stage? How do I, you know, scream a little bit louder? Like it was crazy. The thoughts that went through my mind, I never did it. Cause it felt really awkward. but.

The key for me was really looking at parts of me, am I afraid of being judged for,

[00:34:41] Hannah: Hmm.

[00:34:43] Jessica: and if we can know, is it that I don't want to be seen as a bitch, so then I'd be more quiet? Is it that I don't want to be seen as arrogant, so then you tone down. Your success. You don't talk about yourself. You don't brag about anything because you don't want to be seen as that.

If you can start to even just identify parts of me, am I most afraid of being judged for, then you can actually show those parts of you so much love. And my two biggest ones where I didn't want to be seen as a bitch. By being too direct, by giving people my opinion too assertively. And the other one was, I didn't want to be seen as arrogant.

So I would never talk about myself. I just never would. If someone did say, how is your business going? I'd say good, thanks. And then get the limelight off me so quickly. But those both have become my biggest superpower. Literally in my book, I talk about being obnoxiously successful. And that's my antidote to being afraid of arrogance, because now I'm like, I'm going to brag about it.

I've literally written a book called Unstoppable Success. And so that is my biggest superpower. And it's usually the parts of us that we are most afraid of other people seeing that are actually, in fact, our superpower, because what it means is that is what's different about us. And rather than trying to fit in, we need to amplify that.

So I'm like, let me be obnoxiously successful. Let me be like, hello, look at all my success because some people are going to think I'm arrogant. That's not up to me to manage and other people can be inspired by it. And the same with the bitch one. If I'm not assertive, if I'm not like, this is what you should do, then I'm not serving my clients.

Imagine if they said, Jess, what do you think I should do? I can't reach success. And if I could see they're playing small, am I going to say, Hey, you're playing small and like, let's work on that. Or am I going to say, Oh, you're doing amazing, sweetie. Like, keep it up. Like, let me be the night. I'm not helping them at all.

And so those two, yeah, my clients now say the one thing they love most about me is my no bullshit, my tough love. Sometimes they like, Jess, I hate you sometimes, but I love you for it because I'm calling them to a higher standard. So those. That self discovery has been the key to actually owning more of me and building out my success even more because I know who I am.

And if people want to hate me for those things, they're not my people.

[00:37:29] Hannah: I really, really like that and so much resonate with that. I was once called arrogant in a job interview, actually, because

[00:37:37] Jessica: Oh,

[00:37:37] Hannah: I did go

[00:37:38] Jessica: Like they know you after a job interview, right?

[00:37:41] Hannah: Yeah, it was an internal one. And I knew, the people interviewing me. And I think for me, that's always one that triggers me too, because, I would always just kind of dim my light a little bit when I talk to other people.

It's like, I'm trying to be really, really humble. But if I'm honest, deep down, I'm not that humble. I know exactly what I bring to the table. And I would often go into job interviews thinking, well, I can actually do this job and I'm super, super confident. the problem was just that I could not always voice that in the word, articulate that in a way that really landed or that felt natural to me.

So that's why it was that sentiment of being arrogant. That's something that triggers me a little bit, because I think that we potentially need to learn how to articulate or how to brag about ourselves or how to self promote in a way that lands and that is natural to us. And it takes a little bit of trial and error to get it right.

I think I've learned that a lot along the way, but as you say, there is so much power in it. And if we just keep on dimming our light, it's not going to help us in the long run. So, I really like how you're saying that. Once you did more and more of it, you got positive feedback. And I think that's what it takes for us to then see, Oh, I do it like this.

It's working and I can do more of that. And I'm feeling secure to, to do more of it.

[00:39:06] Jessica: yeah, but also I have had backlash, you know, like I've had people write posts about me online, like really nasty posts on there, literally go out of their way to write a whole thing about me and post online. And I could have taken that as evidence of, I should get back in my box. I should be more quiet again.

I shouldn't speak up on my opinions because when I speak up, people think I'm a bitch and they write a whole post about me and then everyone was in the comments, like it was a thing, right? And in the past, that would have been my worst nightmare. And so I could have taken it as evidence of, I better start being quiet again.

But instead I took it as evidence. That the universe is building my resilience because the more visible I become, the more I'm going to get this, we can't avoid it. The more haters I'm going to have, we, even Taylor Swift has haters. Like everyone has haters, right? If we truly speak our minds, someone's going to disagree.

And so I saw it as the universe giving me the opportunity to build my resilience for my next level, where they might even be more of that, rather than, you know, I need to be quiet. Yeah.

[00:40:21] Hannah: And, and it's so powerful. It obviously takes a little while for, for that to really sink in. And for us to move through experiences like that, like that seems very scary to me. You know, somebody would go out of their way to like, talk about you online. And obviously we see that happen with celebrities.

And when I look at something like this, I always go, Oh my gosh, it must be so, so difficult. Like I would certainly step away from, you know, being in that spotlight, but. I think it can be powerful to move through and you mentioned Taylor Swift and I think that's a beautiful example of somebody who just moved through it, and is now really, really successful for it, isn't she?

So, yeah, I love that.

[00:41:04] Jessica: Yeah,

[00:41:05] Hannah: just another thing that I really want to touch on, just like kind of peaked at the, peaked at the time that we have, but, is delusional goals. And that's something that I really, really admire about you. And, where you call it, you know, delusional success and playing in fantasy land and doing things that seem and feel really, really bold.

And, it's always something that I felt was inside of me, like inherently always. I felt like I was really ambitious. I had big goals, but you are really want to go out there and get things. walk us through The process of how that happens. How do you come up with your big goals? Do you have one that you're currently working on, for example, or one that you want to reference from your past?

how do you come up with them? And then how do you take action towards making them happen?

[00:41:54] Jessica: yeah, so my concept of Fantasyland is kind of like where anything and everything is possible, where people want to tell you you're crazy and you're like, just watch me cause I'm going to do it. It's like, you've got this deepest level of self trust and self belief. And that's always something that's come really naturally to me.

Like when I launched my first business, the swimwear brand, I had no experience Fashion or manufacturing or business or anything, but I decided that I'm going to launch a global fashion brand. It was just this inner knowing. And so that's always come really naturally to me, but I've been able to really unpack my method for that, to help other people tap into their own Delulu reality.

And like, I was delusional before it was the TikTok trend, you know, but The concept of it really is, and if you're thinking about your goals, is have you removed all limits on what you think is realistic? Have you removed all expectations on what people think you should do? Maybe it's your boss. Maybe it's your family.

Maybe it's your friends who think you should choose a certain path. Have you removed all limits? And there's always going to be a reason why it shouldn't be possible, but you need to be the one that gives yourself the permission to say, you know what, if anything was possible, I would choose this. And so even, more recently last year, around the middle of the year, I said, you know what, I want to do a TEDx talk.

And for anyone not, not familiar, it's very difficult to get a TEDx talk, to be on the TEDx stage. And I said, well, why not me? Why not me? And usually we have these, These goals, all these intentions on our hearts, but we always think one day, maybe what if you said it's mine, why the hell not me? Why can't it be me who goes out and makes that happen?

And when I decided that I started pitching my idea to the TEDx, events and within like one week, I had a reply and within about two months. I was on that TEDx stage and a lot of the time people will pitch for years and pitch like a hundred plus pitches and I was ready to do that. I was so prepared to do that and put in the work, but it happened and it only happened because I said, why not me?

I could have said maybe one day, never sent a pitch out, and then I'd never would have done it. And so I can always do another one and do it even better. Why not do it now? Like, don't wait 10 years. Don't set 10 year goals. If you know what you want to do, do it today because it's so possible, but it's never going to be possible if we never actually say I'm doing it.

So you probably know the thing, like something probably even came to mind. You're like, I know the goal. I know the thing. It's on my heart. It's on my mind. You've visioned it, but you haven't yet claimed it.

[00:45:26] Hannah: it goes back to what you said at the beginning around, you need to be the 1 who gives yourself permission. Right? It's not like, in the corporate

[00:45:33] Jessica: full circle.

[00:45:34] Hannah: you, you know, if you have, You know, this, and this experience, then eventually you can become this. And I think if we were to, you know, if we were to imagine TEDx in the realm of the corporate world, people will probably tell you, you know what, you need X years of experience in order to then apply in order to then train for, in order to then eventually be on that TEDx stage and somebody at the end of that process has to stand there, open the door, let you in and say.

Now you're ready. Now you've got permission to speak at this stage. And so, you just kind of deciding. And saying, I'm going to make this happen for me. I'm willing to do what it takes.so, so powerful. And I think we need to see more examples of that happening because oftentimes I feel like those big things are often gatekept in a way.

That they are made, you know, to be like, like the special place where only the very privileged and only very few rare people get to. And so I feel like this is really powerful. And, you just kind of also in your book, taking us through the step by step of, How did you make that happen? And it's not just that you decided and then you got really, really lucky, but you were also ready to put in the work.

And I think there were some scary bits along this journey as well that you had to overcome. Eventually it was a beautiful experience. And I think, yeah, we're all very proud and obviously also really, really happy to see this. because you as somebody who, you know, was potentially more introverted on that stage, It's such a great sign that, you know, more introverts can go out and claim it.

[00:47:19] Jessica: Yeah. Go get it.

[00:47:22] Hannah: No, I'm really, I'm really, really happy that you came on Jess and

[00:47:26] Jessica: Oh, thank you for having me.

[00:47:28] Hannah: so much away from this conversation. And again, for everybody out there, I do recommend the book. Even. Even when you are in a corporate setting, just because, there is so much in there around, defining your idea of success about, you know, soul searching, getting to know yourself better and achieving some, you know, big delusional goals and I really love it.

Thank you so much, Jess. Let everybody know where they can find you, potentially reach out to you and stay in touch.

[00:48:01] Jessica: Yeah, you can find me on Instagram at Jess. Williamson8. And, if you do want a copy of that values workbook, just send me a DM, values workbook. I'll get that set up for you guys. And if you do want a copy of my book, unfortunately, it's not due yet. Worldwide, but there are a few stores that ship worldwide.

So, send me a message and I can, let you know where you can find it as well. But where did you get, how did you get the,

[00:48:31] Hannah: I got the Kindle edition,

[00:48:33] Jessica: Oh, the Kindle. Okay. So

[00:48:36] Hannah: so that should be working worldwide.

[00:48:37] Jessica: Kindle edition. Amazing.

[00:48:41] Hannah: Thank you so much, Jeff.

[00:48:43] Jessica: Thanks so much.