Foreign.

Welcome back.

Oh, sorry, edit out.

We'll keep it in.

It's fun doing the introduction.

Hello and welcome back to Promoted, the podcast that gets you promoted and great when you get there.

I am your host, Renee Wootton Tomlin, and I'm here with the phenomenal Felicity Fury.

And we have a hot topic for you all today.

Felicity, let's start with where you're calling in from.

Hello, I'm calling in from Gubbi Guppy Country, Wanya.

It's been very warm and sunny.

I've been watching the huge lizards run around my back garden as I've been sitting on my back deck writing my book over the last couple of weeks.

It's beautiful to see them come alive and sunbaking and there's lots of nature happening around us here on Guppy Guppy Country.

So Wanya and Renee, where are you calling in from today?

That's pretty special, actually.

I'm calling in from Larrakia country today, but I just spent the weekend on Perth country, which is, I think it's Ngunnawal, but I don't, don't quote me on that actually.

But they had so much lifestyle.

Lifestyle, so much just diversity of like lizards and beautiful, yeah, just so much activity over in Perth.

So I actually had like a beautiful blue tongue lizard up to our balcony and just like, yeah, do his thing.

And I haven't seen a blue tongue lizard for such a long time.

So it was really cool.

It's all about the lizards.

So good.

The nature is awakening.

I love it.

Now today we have a phenomenal topic coming up for all of you.

How do you know when to logic or your intuition?

Felicity, what matters most to you?

Where do we start?

Well, I feel like, actually it's interesting.

Growing up, I feel like we were sort of told like, I don't know, not to listen to our emotions or feelings that much.

And then I've done a lot of, I've done some personal training and it was really like your thoughts and feelings are just things that come up.

Like, don't listen to that.

So and then in engineering it's very much like, here's the logic, here's the calculations.

Like you need to know if something's right and use your engineering judgment.

So I feel like there's been many times throughout my life that logic has been reinforced in making decisions.

And then when I stepped into leadership and a lot mentors would say things like, just trust your gut.

What does your gut say?

And I'm like, oh, that's a bit weird.

Like, what are you talking about?

Like, I never, like, I'm just so in my head and even to the point where when I got my job at Swinburne and my amazing boss, whose name is Lou, man, he.

On my first day, we went for a walk.

At the end of my first day, I was like, this is weird.

Never done a walking meeting before.

But okay, of course they're fantastic and.

I love them now.

But he was like, how are you feeling?

And I was like, oh, yeah, pretty good.

I got my goals.

And he's like, no, no, no.

Like, how are you feeling?

And I was.

Was shocking about that, was that no one ever, like, to my recollection, maybe somebody did.

And I was just so in my head about it.

I didn't think about it.

No one had been so genuinely asking, how are you feeling today?

So there's been, I think, moments in my life where it has been so logic, logic, logic.

And I think that makes sense for a lot of engineering things.

But I feel like there are so many other components that guests gets that get missed out on.

And I'm actually reading a book on this at the moment around how do you connect in and listen to your gut and listen to your intuition?

And it's been really fantastic taking that time to hear about it and think about it.

The book's called the Science by Tara Swart, I think her name is.

She did a Diary CEO episode podcast, and that's how I heard about it.

But she goes into all kinds of things like connecting with your nervous system and your body.

And there's been lots of moments where I've just, aha.

Moments, almost going, oh, okay, this is intuition.

Like the first yoga class I did, I remember remember being like, this is my leg.

I've never really been like, I have a leg before.

So that's how disconnected I have been on so many of these things.

I'm loving learning about that through her book, but I think it's also an extremely powerful.

I feel like it's a woo woo thing still for me of like, trusting your intuition is an incredibly powerful way to live your life.

And I think ultimately it comes down to trusting yourself.

And when I was told growing up that my feelings were wrong or that they weren't valid, that made it really hard to trust myself.

So I feel like it's always been this tumultuous relationship throughout my life around trusting myself, trusting my intuition and trusting my gut.

And the journey I'm on, on it right now is I'm learning to trust that More which I still feel skeptical about.

How about for you, Renee?

It was a long winded answer to your very brief question.

Yeah, so first of all, I feel like surprised when I hear you say that just because you're such a weapon and you do come across so confident and you have built a.

That really feels aligned to your values in a lot of ways and like your beliefs.

So yeah, I'm just amazed that that I think is such a common occurrence, particularly in women.

And I hate to say that, but that's the reality.

And to your point, like childhood trauma.

Let's go there, shall we?

You know, because of the way I grew up, which I think I've shared a little bit on the podcast in the past, but essentially I had a very bad relations with my parents and to this day I still don't have relationship with them.

So for me, I was, you know, I think, very like most people, dependent on external validation to make decisions.

And I would say, you know, going into my career early on, very, very reliant on people that I trust as opinion to then make decisions in ways.

But I was also fortunate in that the day that I graduated from aerospace engineering at the University of New South Wales was a huge day for me.

Not only just to wrap up what had been like a five year, you know, killer effort to cross that line, but it was the day that I realized that people's opinions of me had been incorrect in the past and that I was capable of so much more than I ever realized.

So that came back to again being told this narrative as a kid where I was stupid or not capable or I was never going to become anything.

And so the day that I graduated uni and the reason I say aerospace engineering from the University of New South Wales is because I literally graduated from the best engineering school in Australia, which is obviously contested against the university Sydney, for anybody that's listening.

So sorry.

But it was, you know, this country girl that came from nothing really and was the first in her family to graduate from uni, suddenly believed in herself.

And so it was from that moment onwards, I would actually say June 2016, almost 10 years ago, which is crazy that I started realizing people's opinions didn't always matter.

And my belief of myself and my intuition and what made me happy was more important than external validation.

And honestly, I feel like my life has changed a lot from the day that I graduated because of that realization.

So for me, if anything, I have been growing my self trust and it's been a journey for sure.

I've certainly had moments of doubt in a previous episode we talked about during redundancy, just those moments of self doubt and stress in going into new roles and not trusting yourself and only really just coming out of that in the last few months, which is, you know, the end of 2025.

So certainly this imposter syndrome and self doubt and all of those things.

It's always a journey, I think, particularly when you're stepping into new new things and change, navigating change.

But yeah, my intuition, I would say I've been in tune with probably more so and earlier on.

And it's something that I listen to innately when I make decisions about my career.

For example, when I was working for a defense contractor, I knew from the second day that I got into that job that it wasn't for me.

And I started looking for a new job from the second day that I got that job.

And when I stepped into a job at Western Sydney Airport, my body, my passion, my love for what I was doing was so much more than I'd experienced before.

So I found this new benchmark of like, right when your gut knows and when you are aligned in what you're building and with the people that you're building it with, it just, it feels like euphoria.

It's like, wow.

Like that's what intuition feels like.

You know, I've been in bad relationships.

This is another good example where I knew in my gut I couldn't stay in that relationship.

But my head was like, no, you can try one more thing.

You can have this hope you can, like, maybe it will change.

And my gut just kept being like, no, no, this is wrong, it's not going to work.

And eventually I had to listen to my gut.

And I think that was also another really big moment in my life where I left a relationship that wasn't serving me.

And, you know, as hard as that was, I knew it was the right thing for me.

So I try and really listen to my intuition so much more than logic these days.

And I'm going through that again right now in another scenario, which is do I build my own business or do I go and get employed while trying to build my business or do I spend all my energy just building my business?

My intuition says, pick a go and build your business full time and just like, don't look back.

And then my, my logic is like, you need to pay your bills and you need, you know, financial security and you should go and do those things now to safeguard yourself for the future.

So I don't think it's ever a one off.

And I think that your intuition and your logic will always be contested and challenged in different scenarios in your life.

And yeah, I think, I think, I know I need to trust my intuition once more in this situation.

And I'm waiting for that moment where it's really, really crystal clear for me.

So I'm about to go through an interview in the next few days for a job.

And if that feels like not uninspiring, it's not for me, then I know that that is, then I know that the option to go and build my business full time is the right move for me.

But it could, it could go, it could go either way.

But I think these are, these are the moments you kind of need to build your evidence and gather that information before you then have a really clear decision sometimes for what's your experience.

I think like, there's lots of ways people talk about this, like might talk about like head versus heart leadership.

And I even think like saying your gut can feel might not feel quite right for everybody because I think like there's all the chakras and the human centered design.

And I'm so not an expert on any of that.

But I remember I was actually our coach, she was like, what do you feel in your heart?

And I was like, oh, I feel like my heart's like empty.

Which sounds a bit weird, but I was like, I get the feeling like in my belly, like, like gut, like proper gut.

And then I know people might feel it in like their hips, like it's like sacral, like energy.

So I feel like there's all different energies like that people might feel.

And so for me, it's in my gut.

And there's a lot of research about this.

Again, I'm nowhere near an expert.

I feel like I haven't even scratched the surface on this.

But you have something like more neurons in your gut.

Some will fact check this, I'll be wrong, but more neurons in your stomach and your gut than you do in your brain.

Something crazy like that all the same.

Or like it's a really high number because that's where like a lot of when we, I don't know when prehistoric times, we had those nerve endings.

And it's really fascinating.

So for me it is like fully in my gut.

And I think something that's helped make the bridge for me between like logic and gut or the intuition part is my values and really drawing back to what are my values and what has guided me.

And this year has been a huge big Year of change for me personally in uncovering a lot of those things that drive me.

And I'd say previously my.

One of my values would be around like high performance, success, achievement goal orientated, getting things done.

And while that's still important to me, I've also discovered things like kindness and adventure, goals that are values that I have that are more important to me than achievement and success.

Which kind of sounds like even just saying that out loud, I'm like, this feels so weird to say, but when I actually unpacked it and looked at what are those things that I deeply care about.

Kindness is number one and adventure number two for sure.

Which makes sense why I love like engineering, inventing things, all that kind of stuff like that is very adventurous.

But I think we really need to bring in that care and care of people.

So I think what's helped me in trusting my intuition is going, okay, what do I value and what's really important to me?

Okay, that's who I am, that's who I identify as and being okay to also claim things in my identity.

I think sometimes I felt embarrassed by being an engineer in some context, or I felt like a loser is a thing that's come up a lot of my life.

Which you'll probably be like, what?

That seems so crazy.

But like, this is fully like, open the hood now, Renee.

You're like seeing all the bits of me, but that's like stuff that has just been there.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So I think what's really helped me get closer to that intuition, particularly when it's something that it's been like from a very young age, pushed away where I can't.

To the point where I can't trust myself, then those values have just kind of like given me something to grab onto, to go, oh, okay.

That's how I reconnect back to that.

That gut feeling and what's important to me.

So that's helped.

I love that.

And you know, maybe we should just spend a moment sitting in the.

The challenge that comes with having a gut that you trust.

Because I think as a woman, it's contested daily and it's something that is very hard to back when we're constantly told that we're in the wrong environment, we don't belong in certain rooms.

You know, who are we to have an opinion on something and put men potentially in their place or maybe even be more educated than most of the people in the room at times.

So, you know, it's really interesting because a lot of the time that I do an interview or speak to people and, you know, present.

I get so much good feedback on.

Wow, you're so confident.

I think it's like sometimes people are more wowed about the fact that I can walk into a room and have presence than they are about, like, all this engineering knowledge that I have.

Which kind of surprises me because I think that that really speaks to the fact that people doubt themselves every day in one way or another.

And so how do we claim this space where we do trust ourselves, we really back ourselves.

We have the self confidence, because then what follows is you trusting your intuition, which leads to decisions in line with your values and the life that you actually want to live.

So I guess, Felicity, can you share a little bit about your journey generally on how you've gone from not trusting yourself to now trusting yourself a little bit more?

I do feel like it's.

It is like a feeling that's hard to explain.

Like, oh, I just feel like this feels right.

And it's often like, usually the other thought is like, oh, damn it.

Because I'm like, oh, that means I have to have a hard conversation with someone.

Or that means I'm gonna have to like, make this change or tell this business partner I'm not going to work with them anymore or like, do this or do that.

And it's like, oh, damn it.

But then I've really had to go because I do.

I feel like I deeply care about other people.

And so I think what's hard for me about that is it's, I gotta go.

There's what's right for me.

And then I often want to do things that are right by other people.

So a lot this year I've had to be like, what's the right choice for me?

Like, what's going to matter to me?

What's important to me, really simple example was I was going to this, like, yoga Pilates studio and were in class and I was having a. I was like, just getting back into exercise.

And the.

I had been going for a couple of months and it was fun.

I was really enjoying it.

And then the person next to me started filming and, like, got her phone out, was just like filming the whole room.

And I was like, that's a bit strange.

I just felt a bit uncomfortable.

And I was like, I just want to be here looking like disgusting and sweaty in like these, like, I'm.

And I'm not the kind of person that wears like the nice Pilates clothes.

Like, I literally will wear whatever free running T shirt that I've acquired and like, like $10 pants from Kmart.

Like, I'm like, super daggy, right?

Like, I. I just cannot be bothered.

Anyway, that's a whole other story, so.

Because.

Depends on what I value.

Anyway, so I'm in these flights class and I just.

I just look daggy and awkward and this person's filming me.

And it actually was about the third time that it happened.

And at the end of class, I said to the owner of the business, hey, I just want to check.

Because I was like, I'm going to be so great with her and just, like, give her the benefit of the doubt.

Maybe she's, like, filming it for educational purposes to improve her class, something.

Even though it was a full on, like, you know, the social media scans that people do, it was like, totally that.

So I says, like, hey, I just didn't feel that comfortable with the filming.

Do you mind if I ask, like, what's.

What's it for?

And she's like, oh, yeah, it goes on our Instagram page, blah, blah, blah.

And I said, oh.

I just.

There wasn't anything in the terms and conditions because I was like, Then I went to engineer mode.

I was like, let's check the contract.

What did I agree to?

Do I agree to this?

Or is there any posters up?

It's a very long wind story, but it's important.

And so I was like, I didn't see anything in the T's and C's or, like, nothing was said.

And she's like, oh, don't worry.

Like, we blur faces.

It's fine.

You shouldn't feel uncomfortable.

And that really irked me because, like, she's telling me how I should feel.

Okay.

And then she pulled up the Instagram page and she's like, see?

Oh, that's a bad one.

Yeah, you can see faces there in that picture.

And I said, oh, my gosh.

And so it really irked me because I felt like she'd not, like, respected me and my privacy and that I asked, I gave her solutions.

I was like, could, like, maybe I just go at the back and they film just, like, this one part of the class if you do need to do filming or could you just let us know?

And anyway, long story short, I ended up leaving and going to a different yoga studio because I was like, I feel like it's really crossed my values.

So I think, like, something simple like that, Like, I was like, oh, I don't want to have to quit and, like, have a conversation with the gym why I'm quitting.

Because then they were like, Ask me these questions about why I was leaving.

I was like, I want to deal with this.

And it's a minor thing, but those little things happen all the time, every single day.

So I think it really showed me how much more in tune I am with values, even over small things, and that I can.

It's helped me really speak up for myself.

And the biggest thing that's been challenging this year about it though, is that my values have changed and they're not what I thought they were, which is cool.

I think, like, it's interesting to know because I'm like, okay, I'm just getting more aligned and more true to who I am, and I get to say that.

And obviously there's times with my kids where I want to do what I want to do and kids will do what they want to do.

And I like being a mum is a really high priority for me and I value that a lot.

And so I often put, like, things for my kids above the things that I want to do or different things.

But yeah, I think it's really helpful to be in that conversation with yourself around.

Like, is this, like, irking me?

Like, and actually our coach, Paris Cutler.

Shout out to Paris.

She really got me to say, like, when the things that piss you off, they tell you more about your values and the things that you like.

So that was so incredibly helpful and such a game changer when she said that to me because, like, yes, what does piss me off?

Yeah, so I don't even know if I answered your question there, Renee, but I feel like I'm fine tuning at the moment.

And yeah, it's been a real eye opening experience to me looking at my values and they've really helped me trust my intuition.

Yeah, that was a phenomenal example because I think when you.

It's little things, right?

And it's, you can ride the, the wave of, you know, the least, the path of least resistance.

And that will ultimately mean that you are ping ponging around other people's needs and wants and obstructing you from actually achieving what you want and the path that you want to work towards.

Because that means making tough decisions, having hard conversations, and that is ultimately what living your values and trusting your intuition entails.

Like, that's not a free ride.

That's not an easy thing to do.

And I think this is why I wanted to dig into this for everybody listening today is because trusting your intuition takes work.

It's like, you know, exactly like a.

Muscle that you build.

Yeah, it's a muscle that you need to build in order to actually live an authentic life that is really grounded in what you want to achieve.

So for instance, whether it's your yoga studio, you know, instructor that's breaking your boundaries, your best friend, your partner, your, your manager, like people will always do that in your life.

It just changes where it comes from depending on what chapter of your life that you're in.

Yes, I've lost best friends to stay and live a life aligned with my values.

I've, you know, lost partners.

I've changed jobs to stop working for people that were breaking my boundaries on, you know, whether it was a daily, weekly, monthly, yearly basis.

Like, I protect my life in every which way.

And that took me years to build those skills.

So I don't want to make make out that this is easy and you should just go and do it.

It takes sitting in, like, genuinely, when I think about, you know, trusting my gut or using logic, for example, going and working for myself or going and getting a job tomorrow because I want to get money and pay my bills, you know, I am already thinking about if I choose that job, I'm probably going to break my values, but I'm going to keep, you know, the integrity that I had in applying for this job and going through to the end for the people that are looking to hire me.

So the, like, the, it's a, it's like, you know, you're weighing up really big, big things like people's trust in you versus your, the trust in yourself.

And, you know, that's going to be a hard conversation that I'm going to have to have with the people that potentially hire me or don't hire me of that decision that I make.

And I'm already highly aware of the fact that that's going to be a really uncomfortable conversation.

You know, I've got friends that I really care about that are doing things for themselves that I don't agree with.

And I feel like as a good friend, sometimes I just want to say one thing once to let them know that I care about them and that maybe they should make a different decision.

And again, that's a really hard conversation because you can't tell people how to live their life.

But, you know, how do you draw that line to really live in alignment with who you are and the good that you're trying to bring about?

So ye all of that to say, you know, trusting your intuition can be an incredibly hard thing to do, but it's so incredibly rewarding.

I think I'm the happiest version of Myself today after making really hard conversations many times over throughout my life and there's many more to come.

So I think that there's also a space for making logical decisions though.

So, Felicity, as a parent, like we've talked about in the past, where you know you've got this really great passion project, but right now your other priorities are some superseding like your passion and where, where your intuition is telling you to go.

Maybe you want to share a little bit about that just to close out the conversation.

Yeah, I think there's definitely been things I've like roles I've taken or different jobs I've done to satisfy like some, some requirements.

So I think it's the seasons that you're in as well in life.

So when I had my young kids, I had a fantastic job for me.

It was a job that I felt quite easy to do and I actually sat down with, with it was my boss's boss and he said, what's your, you know, five year plan?

What's your career looking like?

And I said, do you know what, where I'm at right now?

And I, maybe this is a career limiting move, but I said to him, I, I want a job that I can, I can turn up and I can do and I'm very capable in this job and I'm doing a great job at it right now I've got a lot going on in my home life in terms of having two kids, like one of the kids having operations, a whole bunch of things going on there.

So I for me personally couldn't handle any more.

So I was like, look, probably for the next couple of years while I'm pregnant having babies, job is actually perfect.

So in the next five years, I don't want extra responsibility.

I just want to do this.

In the past I'd pretended about, oh yeah, I want to grow and become a leader and blah, blah, blah, blah, in organizations that I might not have actually ended up doing that.

Apologies to all those former bosses.

I was just trying to look good.

In front of you.

I'm so sorry.

But in this I was like, I'm just going to be real with him because this is a reality and that's completely fine and it's okay to kind of be there.

So that I definitely had someone who is like ambitious and wants to achieve things that was very hard for me to do a job that I found that was quite eas.

So it has depended on like those, it's not like the values of competing.

It can just be like you've Got to prioritize some of those values more than others, which I think can be really difficult.

And obviously you need to be able to, you know, whatever your circumstances are, eat food, put a roof over your head, like some of those basic necessities.

So sometimes I have orientated more towards those.

And I think when those.

That intuition is most strong, I feel like it often shows up in, like, little fights or arguments or little disagreements.

So when there's a clash of values or there's a clash of that intuition and logic, it might be something like you having an argument with your partner.

And it's like something simple, like an example of actually using a workshop, which it's so funny using this example because people go nuts about it, is washing the dishes or stacking the dishwasher.

There is, like, if you ask every person a workshop, someone will have something different to do.

Like how they do the dishes.

Like, particularly now.

Absolutely.

In our house, Michael does them one way, I did them another way.

Does it really matter?

No.

But it actually comes back to a values thing of what we value more when it comes to doing the dishes.

So I find often if I'm having a disagreement or something's not quite working out is because of that clash of values.

So, yeah, there's definitely room for logic examples.

And actually I've got a piece of this in my upcoming book, Renee, talking about how do you make decisions when you have 60% of the information, and you can make decisions when you don't have all the information.

And actually, in reality, we don't, but if you.

I think if you have 60% of.

Of that information, it's like 30% values, 10% intuition.

So I'm playing around with it.

Maybe that'll change as I keep deepening the book, but I think it's a really interesting framing to think about things.

And I mean, I'm always going to be an engineer, so I'm just going to be illogically logic a lot of the time as well.

Love it.

Amazing.

What a great chat.

Well, I hope this has helped today.

Promoted podcast listeners.

We certainly have had a journey with trusting our logic over our intuition and vice versa.

We hope you took something out of today, and as always, feel free to shoot us through a message, tell us what you think about the episode, and if we haven't, you know, broached a topic that you would really like us to talk through, of course, send us through your ideas.

But I think that's a wrap today on the promoter podcast.

Felicity, thanks so much, Renee.

We'll see you in the next episode, Sam.