0:00:05.4 Vickie Brett: Welcome to the Inclusive Education Project. I'm Vickie Brett.

0:00:08.9 Amanda Selogie: I'm Amanda Selogie. We're two civil rights lawyers on a mission to change the conversation about education, civil rights, and modern activism.

0:00:19.1 VB: Each week we're gonna explore new topics, which are going to educate and empower others.

0:00:25.1 AS: And give them a platform to enact change in education and level the playing field. Hello, hello.

0:00:34.6 VB: Hi, listeners. We are in it. We are in some people, it's entering the third month of school, if they started in August, For others, it's probably been a good month. For us, it's just nonstop, so it doesn't... October usually gets pretty busy because that's when a lot of either the 30 day IEP meetings start, or the annual IEP meetings start or that just rush before the holidays.

0:01:00.6 AS: Yeah, before we know we have all the interruptions of the fall from holidays to, weeks where shortened days for teacher conferences, that often happens around this time too, so.

0:01:14.0 VB: Yeah. And we're excited today. We have Rob Sanders with us, who I think will give so many of the administrators and teachers and even parents that listen to the podcast a wonderful way in which teachers can build community within the classroom. And Rob I want you to talk about it, but Rob, welcome to our podcast. Thank you so much for your time.

0:01:38.0 Rob Sanders: Thank you. It's a pleasure to be here.

0:01:41.0 VB: So, Rob, before you became a writer, you were in the classroom yourself, is that right?

0:01:46.1 RS: Yeah, and even when I was first starting to write, I was still in the classroom as well. Mostly fourth grade language arts, but also as a writing coach throughout our district and in schools.

0:01:58.5 VB: Okay. Wonderful, wonderful. And one of the things that we, you know, saw and really wanted to talk to you about was the way in which as a writer your focus was around inclusion. Tell us why you kind of began that writing journey. Was it because you were in the classroom and seeing a disconnect?

0:02:17.7 RS: Well, you know, like a lot of people I've written since I was in high school and I worked even for a publishing company years ago. A very small, a non-kid kind of publishing company. But when I was teaching writing to students, that's actually when my real interest in writing began, because some of my students ask when I was using Mentor Text, where are your books? Why aren't you using some of your books? And you're teaching us about writing? It may have just been a way to distract me and get me off focus.

[laughter]

0:02:49.5 RS: But I took it as a challenge because I'd always dreamed of seeing my books on bookstore shelves and in libraries. And so I started writing. First fiction and then that moved into non-fiction, and my non-fiction and fiction both kind of had that same finding your place, we belong here, everybody needs respect, kind of theme running through them.

0:03:11.7 AS: And what did you see as one of the biggest challenges in the classroom to get the students themselves to really take ownership and feel like creating that community in the classroom.

0:03:25.3 RS: In some ways, I think building community comes naturally, but I think there are lots of things that get in our way from doing that. The busyness of schedules, the demands of our standards and the things we have to accomplish. And sometimes we just have to pull back and remember the importance of community and culture and climate, and allow it to form and grow and do so intentionally.

0:03:51.5 VB: What I love about your bio too is that even though you are a writer, you have a new picture book. We Are A Class, and it kind of came to be because of the classroom pledges that you used to do with your students. Can you talk a little bit more about those classroom pledges?

0:04:10.6 RS: Yeah, I'd love to. When I was a writing coach, I would go from classroom to classroom to classroom throughout the day and for 45 minute, hour long lessons, and I would be walking into all kinds of classrooms with all kinds of teachers, all kinds of procedures, and a lot of kids who were in the middle of other activities, and those students who were like, I don't like writing, I'm not a writer. And so I came up with the idea that I needed to do something real quick to get students focused, and to turn them around from what they were doing to the thing we needed to get done. And so I had the idea of writing a pledge that would just start our day and we made it a procedure. But really it became kind of a, something that the kids really took ownership of. I didn't even realize that was gonna happen. But I came in and we raise our right hand and we would repeat it together, it was something real simple like. I'm a writer, I'm here to write, I'm a writer, I'm here to learn. I'm a writer, I'm getting better every day. And to my surprise, within a few days, as soon as I walked in the door to these various classrooms, students would stop what they were doing, put away whatever it was, stand to their feet, raise their hand, ready to say the pledge.

0:05:32.8 RS: And it got us all focused on what we needed to do. And it all brought us together. We were sharing a common purpose, this is why we're here, this is what we're gonna do, and we're all gonna do it in our own unique way.

0:05:45.9 AS: Well, I can imagine for those students who felt like they weren't writers, that they couldn't do it, that they didn't know what they were doing, having them say those words, I'm sure made such a difference. I mean I tell you, when I was in school, I did not feel like I was a writer, I didn't feel like I could write 'cause I didn't get that support. I think it probably would've made a huge difference if kind of shifting that perspective for them. I can imagine that just, it's like, it almost like pretend that you are and then you will be because you are, you are capable.

0:06:16.6 RS: Right, right.

0:06:19.5 AS: I think it's powerful.

0:06:20.0 RS: Right. And we all think we're not something, right?

0:06:21.4 S?: Yeah.

0:06:22.9 RS: If you're at school, maybe you're not a math person, you're not an artist, you're not an athlete, whatever the case might be. But that doesn't mean you can't give it your all and your best and see where that journey takes you then.

0:06:35.9 VB: Absolutely. Did you see how the pledges, and I love that because it's really like an affirmation, if you were seeing some of these kiddos, and I know that you were a resource teacher at a certain point as well, and so yeah these kids are used to being pulled out of class and prodded and here do this and do that. And I imagine, they probably smiled when they saw you when, as before they didn't [laughter] But what do you think or how do you think the pledges helped create, what a good classroom culture? 'Cause it sounds like you were in and out of classrooms, but then you had your own classroom as well. How were you able to kind of foster or build empathy and inclusion within a classroom was it through the pledges?

0:07:17.4 RS: I think obviously I was walking into classes with that may have already had great culture going on. And that I could just be absorbed into that and get students focused on what the task was for the day. But other places, for whatever reason, I needed to go in and create that positive kind of moment for students. And what I found when I then ended up going back into being a classroom teacher in fourth grade, as I said, I discovered, I kept using this pledge, it was just part of what I did with writing. But students started asking, well so where's our math pledge? Where is the [0:07:57.9] ____ pledge. And they started then writing and developing those themselves that we would use as a class to call ourselves to what our next task was, it wasn't just put everything away now get this out.

0:08:12.5 VB: Right, right, yeah.

0:08:13.6 RS: The hurry, hurry, rush, rush that's part of our day it gave us a break and a breather and gave us that focus that we needed to move on from that.

0:08:23.3 AS: A successful transition.

0:08:26.8 RS: Yeah, it's a transition and it became a ceremony, that added to our culture as any procedure can, as we all know what to expect and we're all part of it.

0:08:37.5 VB: And it was something fun, right? If they're able to kind of stand up, you know, make sure you're right hand is up and really be able to transition in a fun way, maybe get a body break in there, a brain break, it's a...

0:08:50.2 RS: Exactly, stand up.

0:08:53.5 VB: Yeah, yeah, without.

0:08:57.3 RS: Stand up move around, the big shout at the end because we are a writer, conclusion was an all capital letters with an exclamation part, so that would be a big shout with fist thrust in the air and...

0:09:05.9 VB: Oh my gosh I know.

0:09:10.8 RS: So that's the enthusiasm that you need, and now let's sit down, here's what we're gonna do today we're talking about this and we're building off of that enthusiasm and collective involvement and our common goal for that day.

0:09:23.1 VB: And so then if at the beginning of the year you had kind of the general like English language arts, Math pledge, would you be able to just create new ones as the year went on? Did you find that it was really just at the beginning? Or that they were created throughout by the students?

0:09:41.6 RS: Yeah. Students would see various needs that we had. Some things happened more naturally than others, like when the students were saying, where's our math pledge? And once they had developed them, and once they're part of procedures, you are really hard pressed to not have that as part of your day. [laughter]

0:10:00.5 S?: Right, right.

0:10:00.6 RS: Because they're expecting that and they will hold you to task, if I was to say, "Okay, it's time for math" And there was a math pledge in place, they would jump to whatever procedure was and take ownership of that and make sure it happened. That often happens in class too, with anything that after a while of doing something, some students will become the leader of it, they'll want to take turns doing that. Other students, fourth graders were saying, "Hey, who can memorize this first? I can memorize it, I can say it with my back turn" You know, those kind of things, so but they'd count on it because it's now part of our routine.

0:10:40.6 AS: It's something they can expect, when life is often unexpected.

0:10:46.0 RS: So true. And school can be so unexpected, we never know what's gonna happen during today. And so if we know there's been a fire drill in the middle of this, of our writing lesson, Hey, let's come back and let's start over with the pledge, let's get refocused on what we're doing and those kind of things that can help call us back to our purpose and that we are working together on something.

0:11:10.1 AS: Yeah. Did you ever have any pledges for like, that sense of community, like being kind to one another or helping one another? Just like the idea of being good human beings.

0:11:21.2 RS: We had a school-wide, kind of something like that because at one time we were using a system of building culture, building community, being personally responsible for your behavior. And we had things that we would, had posters up at our room, and we would begin our day talking and reading through those posters, focusing on one of them each day that we were going to put into practice, so that became part of our school culture actually.

0:11:55.2 AS: That's so great. Prior to the pandemic, we would always walk into schools to do IEP meetings, and so we've been in many, many elementary school, hallways and classrooms. And we'd always see those posters, the anti-bullying posters or the ones that are like, if you see something, say something. But it was very rare for us to see anything beyond that... Than an assembly, and we always try to get our listeners and like parents and educators to think about like, how can you incorporate this more into the day to day rather than just, we're gonna have an assembly and talk about it, or we're gonna have a handbook on it, so I love that it was incorporated like daily because it's kind of necessary and it can get them into routine just like you have for your other pledges that can really ingrain something more, I mean kids thrive on repetition, right?

0:12:44.2 RS: Exactly, exactly. Anything we want to stick in anybody's mind we repeat over and over.

0:12:50.5 S?: Yes.

0:12:50.9 RS: So definitely it sticks in our minds. And hopefully, you know, a lot of those that first round of kids are out of college now that we did that pledge, and maybe they still, as they were going through school, facing a tough task, might think to themselves, I am a writer, I'm here to write...

[laughter]

0:13:09.8 S?: Yeah, yeah.

0:13:10.1 RS: To remind themselves that yeah, I've got abilities within myself to do the task that's in front of me.

0:13:18.6 VB: It's that inner voice that parents strive to have their child, you know, really rely on. Because that's all we have at the end of the day, and I just love that sometimes when people say affirmations, it kind of has a crunchy kind of sound to it. I'm in California so it's not really, people do daily affirmations all the time, but I love the idea for others that may not be able to digest affirmations, a pledge everybody knows what pledge is and to be able to... You're gonna transition from English to math anyway, and this is just like a really fun way to get, I can totally see a group of fourth graders just taking complete ownership of it, and even littler kid and even and bigger kids. If people wanted to maybe contact you directly or find your books, where can they contact you and where can they find your books?

0:14:14.6 RS: It's really easy. Everything associated with me is Rob Sanders Writes W-R-I-T-E-S. So that's my website robsanderswrites.com, that's me on Facebook, that's me on Instagram. So Rob Sanders Writes, it's my email too robsanderswrites@gmail.com, so it's really easy. And can I just say if the word pledge doesn't sit with someone, right, tons of other words you can use agreement, guarantee, promise, giving our word, oaths, whatever works that fits you and the culture where you are.

0:14:50.6 AS: I love that.

0:14:50.8 VB: Oh, I love that, yeah. Because I know that there's a lot of teachers in different states that are having a hard time just trying to teach kindness, it seems like, so I love that. But it doesn't have to be pledge it could be any of those. And I love your writer mind came up with so many of them, [laughter] different words.

0:15:07.4 RS: Those great synonyms, you know?

0:15:10.0 VB: Yeah, they're so important.

0:15:13.4 AS: We love it.

0:15:14.8 VB: Well Rob, thank you so much for coming onto our podcast and really giving a plan of action that some of our educators can implement. Even if the school year, if they're in month three or whether they're in the first 30 days, this is just such a wonderful thing that I know I could even just do with my 5-year-old. So...

0:15:30.3 RS: That's exactly.

0:15:30.7 VB: I just, I love the idea.

0:15:31.2 RS: A family pledge, that's a great idea.

0:15:34.0 VB: Yeah, a family pledge, right?

0:15:36.4 AS: Yeah.

0:15:37.0 VB: Yeah. So my brain is already kind of weakened project with this. So Rob, thank you so much for your time, and listeners, please reach out, oh, your books, where can people, where can they find them on your website?

0:15:48.0 RS: Really easy to find on my website.

0:15:48.1 VB: Excellent.

0:15:51.0 RS: And again, if you go to any of your favorite bookstores, Amazon, whatever you like to use, you look up Rob Sanders, put in that book, We Are a Class, and that will get you to the right Rob Sanders, and then you'll see all my other books as well.

0:16:03.1 VB: Yes.

0:16:04.1 AS: Wonderful.

0:16:06.3 VB: I'm picking up the story of Harvey Milk and the Rainbow Flag.

0:16:06.4 RS: Yeah.

0:16:07.4 VB: Peaceful Fights for Equal rights, and Stonewall, yeah. Building. An Uprising. A Revolution, Blood Brothers, was more of the middle grade novel. But yeah, no, we appreciate you and what you've done and the idea of a pledge oath, whatever for a lot of these classrooms. Thanks listeners, and we'll talk to you next week.

0:16:24.3 AS: Bye.

0:16:25.9 RS: Bye.

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