Jill Part 2

[00:00:00] PART 2 - Imposter No More

[00:00:00] Hi there, and a very warm welcome to Season 5, Episode 31 of PeopleSoup. It's Ross McIntosh here.

[00:00:06] coined, Imposter Phenomenon, by Pauline Clance and Suzanne Imes, two, clinical psychologists in the late 70s. And they initially thought that this was something that really only occurred in high achieving women. we since have a little bit better understanding that that does not entirely seem to be the case. what we now know is that this occurs in up to 70 percent of people. And when Clance and Imes identified the phenomenon, they called it the imposter phenomenon. But I don't think it's a coincidence that this thing they thought only occurred in women was quickly rebranded in our culture.

[00:00:43] As a syndrome, I don't think that's a coincidence. I think there's sexism involved in that. And of course, if it occurs in 70 percent of people and a syndrome is a disease or a disorder or a pathology, then it just simply can't be. A syndrome, right? Like it just can't. It's normal.

[00:01:00] Peasoopers, it's the second part of my chat with Dr. Jill Stoddard, psychologist, author, TEDx speaker, and podcaster. Jill's latest book is called Impostor No More. Overcome self doubt and imposterism to cultivate a successful career.

[00:01:17] in this episode we start with my review. And then you'll hear about how the idea for writing the book recei, Emerged after a well received conference panel discussion.

[00:01:25] We move on to the different types of imposterism and how Jill recognised the importance of the work or life situation and how she could draw upon her expertise in contextual behavioural science to offer something different and useful. wow, there's so much more that we covered including the experience of marginalised groups.

[00:01:44] Recommendations for future research, the dedication in the book to Leanne Harris, and Jill's brilliant

[00:01:52] [00:02:00] takeaway.

[00:02:01] PeopleSupers is an award winning podcast where we share evidence based behavioral science in a way that's practical, accessible, and fun. Our mission is to unlock workplace potential. P Supers, you might notice in those last three words that new description.

[00:02:16] More about that in a moment, but first, let's just scoot over to the news desk. As next year rapidly approaches, Please check out the Act in the Workplace, Train the Trainer program that I'll be delivering in April and May next year, over four sessions, in partnership with Joe Oliver at Contextual Consulting.

[00:02:33] You'll find the link in the show notes and early bird rates are still available. I developed this training protocol alongside Dr. Paul Flexman at City, University of London, and I've delivered it to hundreds of workplace participants across all sectors.

[00:02:47] let's go over to reviews for our last episode, which was part one of my chat with Jill. A colleague of mine, Tom Armstrong, said

[00:02:55] Just listened to this Ross. Loads in it. But what stands out for me most is when someone like Jill with powerful labels like TEDx speaker, etc Shares her imposter thoughts. Then the conversation becomes totally relatable and real for me anyhow and probably most people.

[00:03:11] And the relief of knowing that there isn't a silver bullet is of itself a silver bullet. Well thanks to Tom and thanks to everyone who listened, shared and rated part 1 of my chat with Jill. Your support is what makes the PeopleSoup community so special. So please do keep listening and subscribing, sharing and letting me know what you think.

[00:03:33] If you make some noise about the podcast and our guests, we'll reach more people with stuff that could be useful. And P Supers, you might have noticed a slight difference in the description of the podcast.

[00:03:43] I'm reading a brilliant book called Make Noise, A Creator's Guide to Podcasting and Great Audio Storytelling by Eric Newsome. In it, one of the first exercises is to get really specific about describing your podcast in 10 words. So my current [00:04:00] description is, PeopleSoup. Unlocking workplace potential with expert perspectives from contextual behavioural science. That's gone through many iterations, but that's where I'm landing right now. What do you think? I'd love to know, Peasoopers. Anyway, let's get back to business. So for now, get a brew on and have a listen to part two of my chat with Dr. Jill Stoddard.

[00:04:29] I'd like to dive into the book.

[00:04:31] Let's do

[00:04:32] it. Dive away.

[00:04:33] And I'd like to start with my review.

[00:04:35] Okay. Oh, I Aww.

[00:04:39] My Review

[00:04:39] And, peace supers, Jill hasn't heard this review yet, so... So here we go, it's fresh off the press. I wholeheartedly love this book. It's written with warmth, expertise, humanity and care. I knew this book was special when I started highlighting parts I wanted to return to or reflect on. And then I noticed that there were highlights on every page of my PDF advanced copy. Two examples of features I loved, and there were many, but I just thought I'd share two examples of things that touched me.

[00:05:09] And the first was your response to the opportunity to deliver a TEDx talk. This is such a powerful section. Which perfectly illustrates the process of values led action. Letting your values make the choice, even though your mind might be presenting you with other thoughts and emotions. But folks, I'll let you read the book yourself to discover the full story on that.

[00:05:31] And then there was also a bit I loved, the way you set out the choices we have in life, which you call beautifully the points of possibility, or POPs. It just makes it so memorable, so the question is, what would make our lives pop in any given context? And the way Jill unpacks this to make it relevant and practical is outstanding.

[00:05:53] Throughout the book, Jill helps us to explore these points by guiding us through progressive exercises. Jill is an authentic [00:06:00] and masterful storyteller. I'm so grateful for your years of writing and persistence. I applaud the way you make psychological concepts accessible, relatable, and practical.

[00:06:11] You present us with vignettes from friends, people in the public eye, from Michelle Obama to Eminem and your own life. I also applaud you for making a difference and for living your life out loud. You truly bring to life your approach through your role modeling and your writing, and. To top it all, I also consider this book to be a fantastic introduction to act.

[00:06:32] Bravo and thank you.

[00:06:35] Thank you. I'm holding back tears. I haven't, well, like I said, you know, Kevin was one of the first reviewers. So I, it's like that, thank you so much.

[00:06:44] Vulnerability when we're putting something out into the world

[00:06:44] That's really meaningful to me to hear such positive feedback. It was a labor of love for sure and... I'm sure as your, you know, your PSupers probably can relate, I think anytime you put something creative out into the world, it's so vulnerable, right?

[00:06:59] Like, I can make a spreadsheet and I'm not gonna feel anxious if I, I don't know, share it with my boss or something, but I think, putting your creative work in the world is a particularly vulnerable, very scary thing to do, and especially when it matters to you. So,

[00:07:12] thank

[00:07:13] And it landed this week. We're recording on the 22nd

[00:07:17] of

[00:07:18] September. So it's been out there in the world

[00:07:20] three days.

[00:07:21] When Jill Decided to Write the Book

[00:07:21] days. So let's, let's rewind, Jill. , you talked about when you were going to do your PhD, you noticed the signs of what people popularly call imposter syndrome. when were the seeds of the book planted? Was it then or was it later?

[00:07:40] Oh, it definitely was not then. It never even occurred to me to write a book until... 2009, I think it was the first time I thought, maybe I should write a book, not about imposter syndrome, the first book that I wrote.

[00:07:50] Panel Discussion at ACBS Conference

[00:07:50] So where this book came from, was I did a panel discussion at a ACPS conference so the Association for Contextual and Behavioral Sciences.

[00:07:59] It's [00:08:00] a mouthful. And I was the panel chair and I had. four amazing women come onto the panel to basically share their experiences with imposterism. So I did the introduction of this is the definition and the prevalence and the subtypes. And then they all told their personal stories The more I started talking about this, the more surprised I was by how common it was, especially among high achieving people. And I thought, maybe if we do this panel and these women share their experiences, whoever attends will think, Oh my gosh, if these women feel this way too, and we're still able to do all of these incredible things, maybe I can too.

[00:08:37] That was my hope is that it would inspire that kind of action in people. And so we did that panel and it was truly one of the most. powerful and meaningful professional experiences I had had. And we got a lot of feedback and a lot of it was in that vein of, if you can do it and feel this way, maybe I can too.

[00:08:53] Approach by The Art of Charm

[00:08:53] And so one of the people who attended that panel was Michael Harold, who worked on a podcast called the art of charm. Now, I didn't know any of this, I just got an email out of the blue from the Art of Charm asking me to come on and talk about Impostor Syndrome and at first I thought it was a scam, because I hadn't heard of the show and they had at the time a hundred million downloads, and I was like, what?

[00:09:16] Who am I? I'm nobody. Like, they had Kobe Bryant as a guest. I mean, these really big names. Sugar Ray Leonard? I'm like, what? Why do you want me? Well, it turned out Michael worked on that podcast and he had seen... The talk, and I didn't know any of this at the time, and he had suggested they have me on to talk about this, and so that was really what got it started, and I was so anxious about coming on the podcast because I thought, I'm not an expert in this, it's an interest I have, but when I did that panel, I was reporting other people's work and research and findings, not anything that was my own, and so I really, of course, felt like a total imposter, but I said yes, because That's what I do.

[00:09:59] And that [00:10:00] interest really snowballed into doing a lot more reading and researching and ultimately turned into a book.

[00:10:07] And actually,

[00:10:08] I can offer something different

[00:10:08] I think I could add one thing to that, which is, the response that I got both from the panel and from the podcast that really made me realize this is such a common, Issue and so much of the advice out there. I don't think is advice. That's particularly useful, which we talked about earlier, the like, let's strong arm your thoughts into positive thinking and let's build your confidence.

[00:10:32] And, you know, so it was, really a lot of that feedback that I thought, gosh, there's really a need out here. And I feel like I could offer something different that might make a difference in people's lives and careers.

[00:10:44] Hmm. Now in the first section of the book you talk about imposter phenomenon, which is where, where it all began. And I believe it was research on the experience of, of women in organizations where it, all began and blossomed from.

[00:10:58] Intro and Clip - What is it

[00:10:58] um, coined, Imposter Phenomenon, by Pauline Clance and Suzanne Imes, two, clinical psychologists in the late 70s. And they initially thought that this was something that really only occurred in high achieving women. Um, we since have a little bit better understanding that that does not entirely seem to be the case. what we now know is that this occurs in up to 70 percent of people. And when Clance and Imes identified the phenomenon, they called it the imposter phenomenon. But I don't think it's a coincidence that this thing they thought only occurred in women was quickly rebranded in our culture.

[00:11:35] As a syndrome, I don't think that's a coincidence. I think there's sexism involved in that. And of course, if it occurs in 70 percent of people and a syndrome is a disease or a disorder or a pathology, then it just simply can't be. A syndrome, right? Like it just can't. It's normal.

[00:11:53] If it's happening to 70 percent of us, then it's part of the normal human experience. And so part of what I talk about in the book, you won't see [00:12:00] imposter syndrome on the cover. I use that phrase in the very beginning of the book because that's what people recognize and then very quickly sort of call for a cultural rebranding that we start referring to this again as the imposter phenomenon.

[00:12:14] or imposter experience, or thoughts and feelings, or imposterism, and try to ditch that, pathologizing term syndrome, because it really is not. It's not about a disordered psyche or a pathology.

[00:12:25] Hmm. And it, it really interested me in that first section of the book where you were talking about how this may impact more people who are. So it's a, it's a perfect example of how marginalized and also how context of an environment or a workplace, for example, can contribute. And this really resonates with me and a conversation I've been having with a colleague of mine, Jamie Tapper, and she's an ex principal ballerina from the Royal Ballet, and she's now an organizational psychologist.

[00:12:53] And we've been having conversations about imposter phenomenon and how the environment of a ballet company can contribute to experiencing that, that phenomenon.

[00:13:04] Yeah, I mean, I can see that. It's such a highly competitive. Environment and I don't know much about that world. Correct me if this is wrong, but I certainly don't get the impression that the people in charge, the people that are evaluating the dancers are offering a lot of, you know, praise and encouragement.

[00:13:22] I mean, it seems to be a fairly punishing environment and one that really highlights competition between people.

[00:13:29] Yeah. And similarly, have glimpses of this environment and I have Jamie's experience to reflect on. But it does feel at times, that they are treated as vehicles.

[00:13:40] Mm hmm.

[00:13:40] Yeah.

[00:13:41] and I, I do think that, you know, kind of going back to this being normal and, and not a disordered psyche and, what's, I think, partly happening in this ballet company and other environments that are similar is I do think we have an evolutionary predisposition.

[00:13:55] To this in that and then I'll talk about the marginalization piece too, but [00:14:00] in that, you know, Early humans didn't have fangs and claws and run at high speeds They had each other right and and humans who hunted and gathered and traveled together had a survival advantage And so to constantly be checking your status in the group.

[00:14:14] Do I measure up and marginalisation

[00:14:14] Do I measure up? Do I add value? do I have something to offer here? And I don't want people to find out if I am not pulling my weight, because if you got kicked out, it was literally a life or death situation. And of course, now fast forward a couple hundred thousand years, we're not maybe going to be attacked by, I don't know, saber tooth tigers or whatnot.

[00:14:34] But we do know from loads of research. That one of the strongest predictors of health and well being, and even mortality and morbidity, is the presence of quality relationships. And so I do think so much of this comes from a place of fear of being found out. Who's finding you out? It's other people, So if you find out that I'm a fraud, that I'm not as competent as you think that I am, etc. Then this is like threatening our bond. And even if that's co workers and people that you're not, deeply bonded with the way you might be with your best friend or your family members, these bonds are still really...

[00:15:09] Important. And, and so I do think that that's a lot of what's going on at the core of this. and then when you add the marginalization piece, you know, really anybody who has a history of being told they don't belong at the tables may be more vulnerable to this, right? If women have been told they don't belong at male tables or, uh, people in the LGBTQ community have been told they don't belong in straight cis spaces.

[00:15:34] People of color have been told they don't belong in white spaces. You know, it stands to reason that we would then question, you know, we, get both overt and covert messages just from the day we're born. We're swimming in these waters, right? Where there is oppression and marginalization and how can you not internalize?

[00:15:51] Simple comparisons of men versus women not robust enough

[00:15:51] Some of those messages and so that's something that thus far to my knowledge has not been empirically tested, but I would, I, [00:16:00] every podcast episode, I think I've come and I'm like, somebody, please investigate this because the simple comparisons of just looking at men versus women, I don't think are robust enough.

[00:16:10] I think we want to look at people who have experienced marginalization versus people who haven't. And I think that's where we're going to notice more of the differences and what, you know, some studies do show that women. experience this more often than men, and many studies show that that's not actually the case.

[00:16:25] And I think if you took the men who have been marginalized out of that comparison group and put them into the group with women, that is really where you would see the differences more than just this simple gender split, if that makes sense.

[00:16:39] It makes perfect sense. So P Supers, if you're listening and you are a researcher, here's your topic.

[00:16:44] So anyone who needs a dissertation idea, there you go.

[00:16:47] Organisation of Book

[00:16:47] Yeah. Absolutely, and Jill, maybe, maybe tell us how the book's organized. I've already talked about the sort of first section, but talk us through the big sections of the book.

[00:16:57] Yeah, so the first section is I think titled understanding which is really about, you know What what is imposter syndrome who's most vulnerable to it? How many people have it the different subtypes? Which is something that a woman called Valerie Young came up with then I created a little quiz so people can figure out what their their subtype is And, you know, so it's really just kind of getting the background like I, I'm teaching you everything I know about this imposter phenomenon that I can find this out there so that you have this background, The second part of the book is called evolving. And this is really where all of the skills are taught all the psychological flexibility skills for learning how to relate to these experiences in a different way so that they no longer hold you back.

[00:17:41] Sometimes in the workplace about overworking to feel legitimate

[00:17:41] And I will say, I think we most commonly talk about how this can hold people back. But the other way this Often presents is not an under working. You know, it's not just about avoiding opportunity. It's about overworking. Like, if I just do this one more thing, earn this award to get this promotion, get more money, whatever it [00:18:00] is, like, then I'll finally feel legitimate.

[00:18:02] And we get on this sort of hamster wheel of constant achieving, achieving, achieving, hoping That we can accomplish our way out of imposter syndrome, which, of course, that doesn't happen. It doesn't work. And so I think it can lead to a missing out on opportunities. And very commonly also can lead to burnout from the overworking to try to outrun it.

[00:18:21] Living full size not fun size

[00:18:21] And then the third section is called Living Full Size, Not Fun Size. And that's a reference to candy bars. So in the U. S. on Halloween, we go trick or treating. And. Most people give out teeny tiny little candy bars, but once in a while, you've got this like one house and everybody knows which house and they give out full size candy bars and it's exciting and it's a little forbidden.

[00:18:45] And so I use that as sort of a metaphor that we want to live full size, not fun size, which isn't really fun at all. And so that section focuses on the role of community. You know, kind of together, I think the chapter's called Together We Can. Um, self compassion and then just kind of a final tour through psychological flexibility.

[00:19:06] And that's actually the story that you referred to in your review where I talk, where I apply everything, every single thing we've talked about in the book, I apply to my own experience of, doing a TEDx talk.

[00:19:16] And thinking about that TEDx talk, would you, don't tell us the whole story, because I want people to go and read the book. I think it's so important that people read the book. But just give us a bit of a background about what happened and maybe what your mind was saying.

[00:19:30] Yeah. So it was, this last minute opportunity that I was given and I had already read, um, oh gosh, I always forget his name, Chris something. I think he's like the big Ted guy and he wrote a book that's brilliant. So anyone who has a dream to do a TED talk, I highly recommend this book and I can look it up.

[00:19:46] Maybe we can put it in your show notes. It's really wonderful.

[00:19:50] And P supers, of course, Producer Emma found the chap, Chris Anderson, the curator of TED. sh And you'll find links to his talk and his book, The Official TED [00:20:00] Guide to Public Speaking, in the show notes.

[00:20:03]

[00:20:03] And of course - P Soupers - the linke to Chris

[00:20:03] And so I had already read that book. You know, I, I was, already preparing to want to do this at some point, but I wasn't ready. And I thought I'd be the one to seek out the opportunity and to apply, but this sort of fell in my lap. And so it was like deer in headlights kind of panic, like, Oh my God, I'm not, I'm not ready.

[00:20:21] Like it's not time, but I also didn't. Want to let that opportunity pass me by, and the way I got myself to at least this was during COVID. So everything was on video and I had to send in a video audition. I was like, Oh, well, I'll get rejected the first time. I'm pretty sure in the book, Chris said, everybody gets rejected the first time or two.

[00:20:39] So don't expect to get in the first time. And that's how I convinced myself just to do the, the little like intro audition video. And I mean, within, I don't know, a couple hours. I found out that I got this talk and so of course the mind is like, Oh, well, obviously she was sort of short on submissions and she just accepted everybody.

[00:20:57] And, you know, so basically these thoughts were just present throughout the entire experience. And I just really did not think that I could do this. And a big part of it was,

[00:21:09] I was feeling like particularly self conscious about appearing on video, sort of like memorializing myself on video for forever. Um, you know, just a number of I was just overwhelmed with self doubt and fear. And I really didn't know if I could do it.

[00:21:26] And so, um, I once had a client who came to sessions saying, you know, she had engaged in all these committed actions. She made lots of values based choices in between our, our weekly sessions.

[00:21:37] WWJD

[00:21:37] And when I asked her what she thought she had done that made her so successful, she said, well, every time I was at, you know, a point of possibility, like we talked about before, I just thought WWJD.

[00:21:48] And as I'm spinning out thinking I'm the worst therapist ever, because usually that means what would Jesus do, and I had no idea this client I'd been seeing for quite a while was religious and I'm a terrible therapist, she [00:22:00] saves me and says, you know, what would Jill do? And I was like, oh. Thank God. Not a terrible therapist after all.

[00:22:07] And, she talked about how she kind of carried me on her shoulder. And just when she was at these points where she had a decision to make, she would ask, what would Jill suggest I do in this moment? And I just loved that. And so I kind of turned it into an exercise that I started doing with clients. Where they pick their J. It's not necessarily me. it can be me, or it can be someone you know that's important to you. It can be a celebrity you feel like you know, it could even be a fictional character. But someone who embodies the qualities that are consistent with the values you want to be working toward.

[00:22:40] Jill's J is Oprah

[00:22:40] And so for me, my J is Oprah Winfrey. Because she is someone who has overcome every obstacle in the book and never lets these things stop her. She moves forward with courage and perseverance. and uses her power for good, at least as far as I know. You know, unfortunately I'm not pals with Oprah as much as I would love to be.

[00:22:59] But these are things I think I know about the quality she embodies. So, when it came to the real choice point of, am I gonna do this? TED Talk or not, I, I truly thought, well, what would Oprah do? And it was a no brainer. She'd obviously do the talk, no matter if she felt self conscious or scared or anything else.

[00:23:17] What would Oprah say - got in touch with my values.

[00:23:17] And then I sort of took it a step further and I thought, well, what would she say to me? Like, if Oprah were here and she knew that I was really struggling in this way, what would she say to me? And, you know, because part of my insecurity had to do with my physical appearance, she would say, Jill, you're so much more than your body.

[00:23:33] And if you have a message to share that helps even one person, that's consistent with your professional mission. So you got to get out there and do it. And it was like the combination of those two things that I just saw. That was it. I got in touch with my values, and I decided to, bring all of that fear and insecurity and everything else, and I bought a bright red blouse and leopard print shoes because I wasn't going to hide behind my insecurity about my appearance, and[00:24:00] I did the talk in the presence of I'm not ready, I'm terrified, I don't have a message worth sharing, you know, all the zillions of insecure thoughts that, that were there.

[00:24:11] I didn't wait until they were gone. I didn't wait until I felt confident. I did it in the presence of that pain. And I will admit to you that watching that video to this day is very difficult for me to do and, you know, Sheila and Kevin, they're right there with me when I watch it but I am so dang glad I did it and I'm so proud of myself because it was hard, you know, it was hard to feel that many Tough, tough emotions.

[00:24:39] Oh, I'm getting choked up just talking about it. And I am so glad I did it. And I think, you know, what people get when they live their values is like, yeah, you have to feel scared because you're doing something that you care about and the stakes feel high. But you also get to feel this incredible sense of vitality and meeting and pride and all sorts of other things that you don't get if you avoid it.

[00:25:01] Psychologists Off the Clock

[00:25:01] Hmm. Gosh, thank you. Thank you so much for sharing that, Jill, because it touches me and it beautifully encapsulates the concept of psychological flexibility for me in a way that has that humanity and that vulnerability and that forward action. Now, selfishly, I want to ask another question as one of

[00:25:20] my Podcast heroes, you and the psychologists off the clock team.

[00:25:26] I'd just love to hear your story about when you were invited to be part of that team and then how you connect with each other maybe after an interview because that speaks to me so much and I just would love to hear you talk. Just expand on that a

[00:25:40] Yeah, and I think I talk about that maybe in the chapter on community, you know, the importance of having support people in your life. Although I don't remember if it's there somewhere else, but so when I was invited to be on the show, I had been a guest twice. They had me on to talk about my first.

[00:25:56] Two books, which if I'm being, I was maybe their [00:26:00] number one fan. I mean, this was my absolute favorite podcast when they invited me to be on the first time. At that point, that was way before the TED talk, And that at that time was probably the most anxious I've ever been to do something professionally because the stakes felt so high to me.

[00:26:16] I was like a super fan and now I'm a guest on this podcast. And, um, So I came on twice, and after the second time for Be Mighty, I was thinking about starting my own podcast because it's, you know, your publisher wants you to have a platform and a way to reach people if you're somebody who writes books.

[00:26:33] And at that point, I felt like I knew the ladies a little bit better because I had been on, Twice and I, I reached out to say to get their input, like, would this be crazy? Is it a ton of work? Should I consider doing this? And they said, Oh, it's so funny that you're, that you're reaching out right now and asking.

[00:26:48] Cause for the last couple months, we've been talking about inviting you to come on as a co host. And you know, of course the imposter thought was like, what? I'm not a podcaster. I don't know anything about podcasting. Who am I to. Like reach out to really smart people in this field and think that I know how to interview them.

[00:27:07] I mean, all of that showed up. and you know, I was, I was like so anxious because I, at the time I, you know, I saw my now co hosts as like celebrities, you know, I just didn't think I could hang with them. And so again, I said yes, and I have to say it is maybe my, my most favorite professional activity.

[00:27:27] Like to be able to nerd out about psychology with smart people who love to nerd out about psychology is so fun. And to read nonfiction books, to prepare for these interviews, you know, normally I wouldn't make the time to do it, but because this is part of my professional role, I have to make it. It's like I can give myself permission to make time to read books, whereas normally I might think I was like.

[00:27:49] wasting time, you know, and I just love it, but it's intimidating. And there are plenty of times where an interview ends and I just think, Oh God, I [00:28:00] blew that. I made such an ass of myself. Ooh, can I say ass?

[00:28:03] Yeah,

[00:28:04] Okay.

[00:28:06] absolutely.

[00:28:07] Made such an Ass of myself

[00:28:07] Okay, good. I made such an ass of myself. And, you know, so that's where having this team has been so wonderful, and all of us do this with each other, where I might text Debbie and Yael and say, Ugh, I feel like I talked too much in that interview, or I was acting like a know it all, or whatever the case may be.

[00:28:28] And, you know, they always respond with very kind words that are validating, right? Like, we're always our own worst critics. You probably sounded more competent than you think you did. You know, this just sort of like, and of course my brain has a hard time accepting that. It still does what it does, which is like, you don't know.

[00:28:47] You know, wait till you hear it. But just to have that. Support and to know that there is a team that has your back and that even if I was right and it did suck, they would still love and support me, And I have found time and time again that when there are times that I struggle to be psychologically flexible, That has been the thing that sort of bolsters me and keeps me going and makes it more likely that, you know, we talked about the water skiing earlier.

[00:29:14] There was also a time when I was hiking. My son and I like to hike together, and he was only, I think, seven at the time, and he wanted to go up this really steep. path. And I was like, buddy, I don't think I can do that. I was like, not in very good shape. He said, come on, mummy. I believe in you. You can do it.

[00:29:32] And I just thought, well, I can't, I have to at least try. Better to model for him trying and failing than not trying at all. And I tried and I did it and we got all the way to the top and he turned around and said, Mommy, I knew you could do it. And he and I have talked many times about how his support and his cheerleading, even from a little tiny guy, was so important and what a cool quality that is.

[00:29:56] And so it just, it's come up professionally and [00:30:00] personally so many times where when I'm struggling to make the psychologically flexible choice, having people in my corner has really strengthened my ability to say yes in those instances. Or to hold me up when, you know, usually the feared outcome doesn't happen, right?

[00:30:18] That our brains overestimate that likelihood, it usually doesn't happen. And when it does, we can generally deal with it better than we give ourselves credit for. But when that outcome happens and it's painful, I think, you know, having people there for those moments too is just, it is a, what's the word I'm looking for?

[00:30:33] It, like, it's not a choice, it's like a must, right? It's like you, you gotta have it.

[00:30:37] Um, um, and that's why I now have producer Emma, who is, is my support and my sounding board, because people might not appreciate how, you were talking earlier about putting a book out there into the world, and it's a vulnerable moment. When you're pressing publish on a podcast episode, and you've been editing it yourself, and you're thinking, Oh god, Ross, why did you say that?

[00:31:01] You sound like an utter idiot. Or, do you know how much you repeat that word in this podcast? Or people are going to think you're just a braggart. And, still pressing publish because I want to share this science with more people.

[00:31:15] Book Dedication

[00:31:15] Jill, I wanted to just give a bit of space to the dedication in the book as well.

[00:31:21] Oh, yeah.

[00:31:23] I, I came back to this morning and I connected the dots because, well I'll let you talk about the dedication, but it's someone I met and didn't have much time to connect with where we were both podcasters, but maybe if you could just talk briefly about, I'd love to hear it and record it on the podcast.

[00:31:39] Well, this, like, instantly makes me start crying. The minute you said dedication, like, all of the emotions came right up to the surface. So, the book is dedicated to Leanne Harris, who is a colleague of ours from ACBS that we mentioned earlier. And she was an absolutely incredible human who did So many different things.

[00:31:58] Not only was she [00:32:00] an act coach, but she was a dog trainer. She, I mean, she just like, she, she was an IT person. I think it was called the scrum master. I mean, she just wore so many hats. She was such a special, incredible person. And one of the things that she was learning to do was to become a book coach.

[00:32:17] And she was involved in a, it's a company called Author Accelerator that's run by Jenny Nash. It's awesome. And they train book coaches. And there's a whole certification process that you go through and Leanne was going through that process and oh, she was also a podcaster, as you mentioned, and I was the first guest, the very first guest on her, her podcast to talk about Be Mighty.

[00:32:38] And so she and I had had a number of interactions and just really clicked. And so when she started doing the book coaching and she knew that I was a book writer and that I had this idea for this book, she asked if she could. coach me as one of her practicum students and I thought oh my gosh I am the luckiest person in the world like you normally have to pay a decent amount of money to get a book coach and She was doing this for free because I was one of her students I didn't feel worthy and we started, you know, texting and zooming and talking Quite a lot and she was the person that I learned you don't have to have a relationship in real life to have a close A true closeness, you know, all, all of our interactions were virtual and we got very close and she was a brilliant, brilliant book coach.

[00:33:22] And, you know, my first two books were with a smaller publisher. I didn't have an agent. My first book had no advance. My second book had a very small advance. And through working with Leanne, an author accelerator, you know, we only worked on my proposal. I got an agent. My dream was to get it to be published by a big five publisher and that happened.

[00:33:42] I got a pretty decent advance that I never in a million years thought would happen. And that was all because of Leigh Anne. And horribly, tragically, unexpectedly, She passed away. She was, I think, 46? Mid to late 40s. And, I mean, it [00:34:00] just, she had so many friends in our ACBS community that just adored her.

[00:34:05] And she was just on the verge of doing so many incredible, great things. And so it was, it was really, really hard. It was really hard. And I stopped writing. I couldn't do it. Oh, I'm getting really choked up. Every time I sat down to try to work on this. I just had so much grief. I couldn't do it. And so I had to put it aside for a while. And then eventually it kind of became like a WWLD situation, right? Like, what would Leanne do? And I just knew she would be so angry at me if she knew that I put this project on the back burner and that I wasn't, you know, persevering and living the messages in that. Book and she'd be very upset if she thought that that was because of her.

[00:34:46] It would be the opposite of what she wanted for me. And so I got back to it. And, Yeah, I dedicated the book to her and her husband, Brendan, had a memorial for her that I want to say was about a year later, maybe because of COVID, right, everything was weird and got pushed back, but because it was pushed back, I was able to go, and stand up in front of all these people who loved her and basically tell this story that like she left it.

[00:35:12] This mark, you know, that she, and I really felt like, you know, I am not a very spiritual person, and I felt like she was sort of pulling some strings from beyond, that all of these amazing things came out of that, unfortunately, pretty short lived work with her, and, and so many people came up to me after, just really appreciative that I shared that story and knowing that it would have meant the world to her to see how successful that proposal is.

[00:35:38] Thank you. Turned out to be in turn, you know, because she didn't know that I got an agent and that I got a big five publisher. She died before all of that happened. So they were just so happy to get to know that even though she was in the beginning of that book coaching journey, like her very first practicum student had the best outcome that could possibly happen in that, that situation.

[00:35:57] Oh, Jill, thank you. Thank you so [00:36:00] much for sharing that with us. Um, it was important for me to ask because I didn't, I didn't know Leanne very well. We just started to connect because I wanted to get her on the podcast.

[00:36:10] would have loved that.

[00:36:11] but I just wanted to honor her because

[00:36:13] Yeah. Well, thank you for asking. I love to be able to honor her too and I try to, in fact, Jenny Nash actually had me do like a Zoom video so we could talk just all about her and just trying to like give a little bit of legacy out there, you know, to let people know that in that, that short time that she was doing this work, what a, what an incredible job she did and how many people she, she touched

[00:36:36] And I'd like to think she'd be. beaming seeing us talking to each other.

[00:36:41] that I have no doubt in my mind that she would be beaming. Yeah,

[00:36:45] Jill, thank you so much for your openness and your vulnerability. I'd like to ask if you have any top tips for our listeners, anything that you'd like to leave them with as a takeaway.

[00:36:56] Oh gosh, there are so many things I would love to leave people with as a takeaway. You know, I'll tell you, I've told, I've probably told this story too many times, but I was asked to give a, like a little talk, like a workshop to high school seniors. And they really wanted them to walk away with something they could apply.

[00:37:13] And it was about improving mental health and reducing suicidality. But I only had 20 minutes. And I was like, Oh my God, that's a tall order, but I really thought about it. And so this is what I'm going to give the PSupers as a takeaway is I thought, God, if I could only teach human beings one thing, because if you only have 20 minutes, it's one thing

[00:37:33] Sure.

[00:37:34] that I genuinely think would, could dramatically change their lives for the better. It is starting to practice. Getting comfortable being uncomfortable, or an act what we call willingness or acceptance. Because so much of what we do, what we miss out on, or what we overdo in the burnout example I gave earlier, it's all about trying to avoid feelings we [00:38:00] don't want to have. And I think when we're willing to be uncomfortable, there's nothing that you can't Try.

[00:38:08] I won't say there's nothing you can't do. Like, obviously, no matter how willing I am, I'm never going to be an NBA basketball player. Right? I mean, obviously, obviously, there are some limits to what we can do. But if you have dreams and goals and aspirations, That you're not moving forward with, it's probably because you don't want to feel the feelings that come with that.

[00:38:28] And if you're willing to feel feelings, there's like almost nothing that you can't move forward with that matters to you. And I like to teach people, silly ways to start practicing this because If I said to you like, Oh, just like, accept your panic attacks. That's not going to happen.

[00:38:45] Right? It's like, if you told me you wanted to be a runner and I told you to go run a marathon on Saturday, like, and you'd never done the flat path in the backyard. It's just not going to happen. So I like to do practices to strengthen these skills. And one really easy one that PSupers can do right now, as long as their hands aren't on a steering wheel driving, is if you just fold your hands, you know, kind of like in prayer mode, the way that feels natural and notice how it feels. And then just switch it so you're one finger over. And then it's the funny feeling way. And to be able to just open up to that experience and just make space for it. And I like to use the breath because when you inhale you literally expand, right? Like your chest, your lungs, your belly, everything expands.

[00:39:25] And so you can sort of use that expansion to make space for discomfort. But especially notice the urge to switch it back or the urge to let go. Because that's the feeling we so often respond to. On autopilot. I don't like this feeling. I'm just going to stop doing it. And so can you make space for both the funny feeling of the fingers and make space for the urge to like, get rid of the funny feeling, to go back to the right quote unquote, right way and just be with that.

[00:39:52] And so that's sort of like a real starting point. And then I have all sorts of exercises, many of which are in the book [00:40:00] for how you can kind of strengthen these. Muscles and like work your way up to harder things like, you know, watching the five last five minutes of the movie Marley and me or which if people haven't seen it is it's a real tearjerker or real hard one.

[00:40:14] If you have like a politician that you really can't stand. Go ahead and watch some YouTube clips of them talking. And so you're not accepting their messages. Let me be clear about that. You're letting these things, these stimuli, trigger internal discomfort. And then you're practicing making space for internal discomfort as a way to practice so that when that shows up across contexts, you have a new way of relating to those experiences.

[00:40:44] So they're not in charge. They're not making you just dive for your comfort zone. If that means making choices that aren't consistent with the life you want or the person you want to be.

[00:40:54] Beautiful, beautiful takeaway, Jill. Jill, I'd like to thank you so much for coming on the show.

[00:41:01] Well, it was my pleasure, Ross. I'm so glad we finally did it. We've been like following each other in all the places for such a long time. It's weird that this is the first time we're doing this, actually, now that I think about it.

[00:41:10] Yeah,

[00:41:11] we finally connected.

[00:41:12] you're a, you're an awesome communicator and an outstanding human and I know it's going to be a couple of great episodes, so thank you so much.

[00:41:21] Thank you, it was so fun

[00:41:24] That's it, part two of my chat with Jill in the Bag. And I seriously love Jill's book and would wholeheartedly recommend it. A big thanks to my producer Emma, and together, We'd like to reach more people, so... If you like this episode or the podcast, please could you do three things? Number one, share it with one other person. Number two, subscribe and give us a five star review, whatever platform you're on.

[00:41:52] Number three, share the heck out of it on the socials. This would all help us reach more people and make some noise with stuff that could be useful. We'd [00:42:00] love to hear from you and you can get in touch at peoplesoup. pod at gmail. com. On X, formerly known as Twitter, we are at peoplesouppod. on the gram, known as insta, We are at People. Soup and on Facebook we are at PeopleSoupPod. You can also drop us a review or get in touch using a voice note on WhatsApp.

[00:42:20] Thanks to Andy Glenn for his spoon magic and Alex Engelberg for his vocals. Most of all, dear listener, thanks to you. Look after yourselves, peace supers, and bye for now.

[00:42:33] And that's us

[00:42:33] Yay!

[00:42:34] Wow.

[00:42:35] You, I should have said there while we were still recording, you are also an excellent interviewer, and you make, you made me feel very comfortable, it was like very easy to be open and talk about all the things, and I really, I love the way that you structure

[00:42:50] Oh, thank you.

[00:42:51] it's awesome, it works really nicely, yeah