Adam Outland: Welcome back Action Catalyst listeners.
Today's guest has a tremendous background in both psychology
and sports, having spent time on the court with elite NBA stars
such as Steph Curry, and he's blended that experience with
neuroscience and practical exercises to help leaders face
challenges for navigating the pandemic to employee retention,
company culture and more. He's also a sought after speaker and
founder of Mind Shift Labs. And his name is Mike Lee. Thank you
for making the time for this, Mike. Where are you Zooming in
from?
Mike Lee: LA.
Adam Outland: Originally from Wisconsin?
Mike Lee: I am originally from Wisconsin. Yeah, right in the
middle of state the middle of absolutely nowhere growing up,
you had to drive I don't know back then the roads weren't the
same. So we had to go is a good three and a half, maybe four
hours depending on you know, visit my grandma or parents
driving along to get to Milwaukee or Minneapolis. So how
do you What's your connection to this?
Adam Outland: The nutshell version? When I was in college
at University of Maryland, I sold educational books door to
door.
Mike Lee: So did my buddy. What was it? The company?
Adam Outland: Southwestern.
Mike Lee: Yeah. Oh, is this the same? Same organization? No way.
No way. So yeah, one of my buddies did the same thing. So
you're familiar with the small town Wisconsin.
Adam Outland: Oh, yeah.
Mike Lee: I mean, that's where I grew up.
Adam Outland: Summer sausage and cheese curds. Man. It was great.
Mike Lee: It's great when you're that age. Today, it takes a
toll.
Adam Outland: You've got to connect the middle of nowhere
Wisconsin, and you studied a concentration in basketball
entrepreneurship.
Mike Lee: You went deep into my bio. Where did you... I don't
even know where that's listed anymore.
Adam Outland: Zach's like a ninja at pulling information up.
Mike Lee: Yeah, I can talk about that a little bit. Yeah, for
sure. I'm talking about that a long time. But yeah, I think
it's a great lesson. Actually. Honestly, there's some there's a
good lesson out of it. So probably like my junior year in
college, I realized that I was never going to get a job. It
started my basketball camp, my summer basketball camp. We
started with one camp small town to Wisconsin, like we've been
talking about. It kept growing. And we we had 100 kids show up
the first year town at 15,000 people. The second year was we
had over 200 kids. Third year was 300 kids and I just I knew I
wasn't gonna get a job. So my advisor was just very aware of
what I was going to where it comes from. When you have a
degree in psychology. At the school, you also have to have a
minor or a concentration. And so what he'd let me do because he
was I think he was in charge of the department was he let me
essentially create my own minor. And he let me create it in
basketball, entrepreneurship, and I picked all these different
classes that would help me in this career that I was creating
kind of Otter nothing I mean, now today, you can pick up a
rock and throw it you'll hit a basketball trainer that's that's
working with kids back then you nobody's really, really doing it
like we were doing it. And so he saw that and realize that T
should prepare me for real life not going to, you know, get in a
job and working somewhere. And so that's kind of where that
came from, yeah he was awesome.
Adam Outland: Yes. Graduating from what I know around '06, but
in '05, you also founded the Wisconsin playmakers basketball
club.
Mike Lee: Yeah, so in 2003, a buddy of mine, and he were
talking and like I was talking about earlier, I grew up in a
town in middle of nowhere, right. And we wanted we just
wanted to run a basketball camp. And we got a gym, got some
coaches together. I printed flyers on my I designed a flyer
in Microsoft Word on my mom's computer, printed it out. We
just took it around town everywhere we set it out the
high school coaches, you know, I'm dating myself, but we you
know, we mailed it. You know, the first year was our kids
second years to our kids. Bam, by the third year, we had 300
Kids and at the time, I actually thought I want to coach college
basketball. And I realized that I wanted to coach college
basketball, that my best avenue was not going and being a
manager doing laundry, cleaning the floor at some division one
school and trying to work my way up. My best way was to
essentially create my own brand outside of the college
basketball world, and then leverage that to get into
coaching college basketball. I wanted to be in the gym. I
wanted to work with kids. I didn't want to spend my time
doing the managerial janitorial stuff with a you know, college
basketball program. And that just kind of evolved. We started
working with kids from Central northern Wisconsin where there
were no programs there were you know, you had the drive, like I
was talking about earlier to Minneapolis or Milwaukee to get
access to these types of programs. And that's so that's
We created this club for. And I just believe that these kids had
an opportunity. Some of these kids with the right train the
right work the right skills and resources that they can play at
the same level. And that's what happened. And we had kids that
went out to play, NCAA Tournament get drafted in the
NBA Draft two game winning shots in the NCAA Tournament. It just
was a it just evolved. That's something that I look back on.
And that's what we did, then, like, we just stay focused on
the little things. And we just focus on them day after day
after day after day, and trusted in the process.
Adam Outland: Do you feel like it was the reps doing some of
that coaching with the kids that helped form some of what you
deliver on stage and talk to people about? Talk to me a
little bit about how you get from where you were doing that
to what you share on stage today.
Mike Lee: There's definitely some of that no question about
it. Being involved in sports, since you know, eight, nine
years old, you kind of the fish in the water. And you don't
realize you take for granted a lot of lessons you take for
granted a lot of the mindsets and the things that the belief
systems and things that you have to instill in yourself, and
instill in the people that you're working with the players
that you're working with, in order to be at an elite level.
And I think I took that for granted. And so I definitely
these are definitely things that translate to the business space
to being a better leader to being a high performer. No
question about it. But really, the the transition came when I
you know, we had built this company in Milwaukee, and but I
always dealt with depression my whole life. I used to get super,
super depressed in the winters in Wisconsin, not getting out of
bed till three or four o'clock in the afternoon. Global
pressure. I mean, it was brutal. I mean, my my barometer was if
I'm aching out of bed, and I imagined that somebody called me
and said Kobe Bryant is at your facility right now and he wants
to get a workout in. And that doesn't excite you and you don't
want to get out of bed, then you're definitely in a going
through a depressive state. Yeah. And so it just got to a
point where I decided that I cannot take another winter here,
I just cannot take another winter in Wisconsin. And I
picked up and I had moved out to LA purely for the weather. And I
decided to get off an antidepressant medication that
had been on for about 14 years. And getting off of it was one of
the I shouldn't say one of it was beat up this thing that I
had ever gone through in my life. There are there's board
certified doctors at UCLA that are that are now comparing the
withdrawal symptoms of some of these medications to getting off
of heroin. Wow. And to get off of it, I decided to commit to a
daily mindfulness meditation practice. And after a couple
months of consistent practice, I realized why elite athletes like
Kobe, white luminaries like Oprah and CEOs, like Steve Jobs
all attributed some form of a meditation practice to their
level of success. It gave me the ability to be present to be
fully present in the moment. And I knew as a former athlete, and
coach and everything that we want exists in the present
moment, being in a state of flow exists in the present moment
being in the zone exists in the present moment, the connection
that you have to create with the people that you're leading
exists in the present moment. You want to show up with empathy
that exists in the present moment, everything that we want,
as a leader, as a high performer, as an entrepreneur,
exists in the present moment. And so I realized that that at
that point, I had a deeper purpose in life. And instead of
building basketball players, it was the build people on to build
leaders. And that's one of the inflection points from where
I've gone from basketball space to what I'm doing today.
Adam Outland: I love that story. Because it starts with self
application, right? It's like, oh, no other people need this
resource. It starts with no, I needed it, right. And then as an
extension of that I can equip others, but what gave you the
belief? Not many people just go, Hey, I'm going to move out to LA
with no network and just randomly start a whole new
business that I feel really confident. Because there's so
much associated risk with the idea of relocating and building
something from the ground up. Talk about that new idea a
little bit more and getting Mind Shift Labs up and running.
Mike Lee: Well, there's there's a couple things, I think, yeah,
I think Tony Robbins says we either we either change because
we're in so much pain, or because we have a compelling
vision. We're either pushed by pain or we're pulled by a
compelling vision. And as you know, I'm not even getting into
the worst of the worst, but you know, when you are can't get out
of bed so three or four o'clock in the afternoon. Sometimes
you're pushed to make a decision, even if it doesn't
seem rational. Another inflection point was I will was
going through this period of getting off of getting off a
medication, there was the acute withdrawal symptoms for several
months. And then there's what's called the post acute withdrawal
symptoms, which are where these medications shut down your
natural serotonin production. And so when you get off of them,
your body is not producing any serotonin. So after I was
completely off was actually worse, a good three and a half
years, or I'm going with that as it is I was trying to make sense
of all this. I knew given the withdrawal. So there was no way
I was going back on something like that incredibly emotionally
unstable. And so I was watching, I am not your guru at Tony
Robbins, but I know he's kind of a divisive person. Some people
love them, some people hate them. But they asked, Why do you
keep doing this? You have houses all across the world, you could
have quit 10 years ago, why do you keep doing this? And he
said, I have an insatiable desire or an insatiable desire
to alleviate suffering for as many people as I possibly can in
my lifetime. And I just started to cry like crazy, because I
that gave my pain and suffering purpose, because I knew that
everything that I was learning, the internal skills, the
emotional resilience, the self awareness, all of these things,
I was going to be able to I was building this massive toolkit
that I'd be able to take and then teach to other people.
Adam Outland: That's awesome. And it's true. I mean, the it's
so difficult to give coaching and guidance to others, if you
don't have the empathy of having been there yourself. Right. And
so some of the best coaches I know, are people that have had
some of the darkest moments because they can go there, right
with clients. So I totally appreciate that. So for the
listeners on the podcast, I mean, you've worked with some
really outstanding athletes. You know, Steph Curry is on your
website, what are some of the things that have translated
really well from from your personal experience, and it
makes these things and when I say things, I guess what I'm
asking for is, you know, what's the strategy? What are some
ideas you you share that have been effective?
Mike Lee: I'd love to share something with Steph because
it's something that I'm still working on today. It's something
that I learned from him just being or being able to be around
him at his for skills academy that he ran, then being able to
stay in touch though in bed, you know, go into pregame workouts
when he was in LA. And in Milwaukee. The short story is I
brought a kid with me one year to watch Steph go through a
pregame workout, a kid that was working with our basketball
company, and the conversation that unfolded with between this,
this kid and stuff, I realized that yeah, Steph put a ton of
time in on the court. He's passionate about the game. But
he did define his self worth by his performance on the
basketball court. He was having this conversation with with this
kid about friends about school about his family, other
interests outside of basketball, I realized that that stuff
defines his self worth by the totality of his human experience
by how he is as a husband, a father, an activist, and
entrepreneur. And that takes pressure off and when he steps
out on the court, and this is what allows him to be in this
state of flow that allows him to play with so much joy, freedom,
gratitude, and creativity because he goes one for 10 For
the three point line, or nine for 10. From the three point
line, when he walks off the court, he's going to feel the
same way about himself. And so this is what what allows him to
drop into the present moment where like I was talking about
before, right? The present moments where everything that we
want in life in business exists, right, it's in the present
moment, locking in on that, that task at hand, his belief that I
am more than an athlete allows him to do that. And I think
that's a lesson that we can all all take into any area of life.
I'm more than an entrepreneur, I'm more than a speaker, I'm
more than a podcast host I'm more than a, whatever it is. It
allows us to take some of that that weight off that pressure
off the standards and the expectations that we place on
ourselves that help us get to the top and also be the things
that make us fall off the mound. And so I think it sounds
counterintuitive that we would place our identity in a variety
of things, but it actually I think it makes us better in all
areas.
Adam Outland: Yeah. If you're a parent and your kid is your
entire life where that kid graduates and doesn't really
quote unquote need you as much anymore. It tears parents up,
right? If you're, you're an athlete, and that's your entire
box like it is for so many college athletes. And so there's
so much merit I think to everybody that listens to the
more elaborate your boxes with where confidence is spread out
between family and health and all these different interests
and things that you've developed. It creates a lot more
of a foundation if you if if and when you lose one of those
spots. Since it doesn't absorb the whole thing.
Mike Lee: 100% yea. And it's a tough thing. What's really tough
is when you're so passionate about something to separate
yourself from it, we're so attached is not the right word,
intertwine. We're so intertwined with our work, as you know,
especially if you are an entrepreneur, and this business
is something that you birth, like, it's your child. Like,
it's so it's really difficult to do that. But I think there's a
lot of power in it when you do.
Adam Outland: You know, it's got some, I guess, relatability to
like that Zen culture of like, it's not detachment from
everything in life, but being careful to not put too much
attachment and interweave too much of yourself and things. I
mean, is that part of what you believe or agree in somewhat.
Mike Lee: 100%, I am working on that every single day non
judgment and detachment, I really want when an event
happens, like just being completely detached from it, and
and not judging it, I really don't know, I think it's hard to
describe this without coming off as being a victim, one of my
beliefs that I hold and and I truly try to apply this in
everything that I do. And that's I know nothing, right. And it's
coming from a place of humility, but also just complete
detachment from from expectations for results from
material things for relationships, and it's more so
coming from it sounds cold, it sounds like, you know, you're
not Oh, you're not emotionally invested in anything. It's not
that I'm not emotionally invested in things, I'm just
psychologically try to detach from an expectation of an
outcome, I guess, is the best way to put it. Because I think,
you know, I can't tell you how many things I've worked on in my
life where I have, I've worked insanely hard at something, and
it just did not come to life. But there are also things that
that just kind of came through that I had feel like I had no
influence on it, right. And so just really coming from that
place of detachment, I think is super, super powerful. And, and
the reason it's powerful is it allows you to stay centered, it
allows you to stay grounded, it allows you to stay in the
present moment, right? If we get super attached to a future
outcome that's going to drive our mind so far to the future
that it takes us off of what we can actually control in the
present moment. Right. And then if the outcome does not
manifest, and we are super attached to it, now we are stuck
in the past. And we're also out of the present moment. So I
think there's there's a there's a lot of power in in the
practice of detachment and non judgement.
Adam Outland: Yeah. So talk about like functionality,
because knowing this stuff, you gotta meet people where they're
at, right, and I'm assuming doing the work that you do at
that level, and you're getting with people that haven't
experienced any of that, that don't necessarily share that
core belief set before they start working with you. So what
are some things that you do in the beginning of a relationship
to kind of open them up to explore.
Mike Lee: Such a great question, it comes down to awareness, just
really being aware of where they're at being able to see the
next step for them, and not taking them, you know, if they
only need to go one step not trying to take them eight steps,
because that's where you're at? I think there is some ego
involved in that. It's like, well, this is this is where I'm
at, and this is the knowledge that I have in this moment that
is relevant for me, and and I, the ego, like I had to achieve
this or go through this or whatever it is to get to this
level. So I should be, I should be teaching at this level.
Right? When the reality of is it's not about you, it's about
them. And you might have to scale back to make things timely
and relevant and actionable for where they are at in this
moment. And so I think it comes down to awareness and getting
out of your ego.
Adam Outland: Yeah. So how do you share some of this message,
some of your message, is an application and leadership that
helped them change their approach to working with their
people.
Mike Lee: I think the first thing is getting clear on vision
and getting clear on purpose. I think everything is driven from
those two things ethic when we get crystal clear on those that
can drive the process to bring bring those things to life and I
think especially in in today's world, getting crystal clear on
your purpose and your why is it's just so so important. If I
didn't have purpose and meaning over the past, just you know
what, what everything that I've kind of shared you I don't know
where I would be to be honest with you like I was in some
really, really bad places. But But I had a connection to
something bigger than myself, I had some sort of why. And the
research shows that having a clearly defined purpose,
improves your motivation improves focus, and improves
your resilience. And so I think as much as it's important to get
clear on that, to get to the next level to bring this vision
to life, it is even more important to get clear on it for
when you go through adversity. Because when you go through
adversity, you need a vision to rely upon, you need a why,
because you're going to get knocked down, things are not
going to go as planned, the strategy is not going to go from
A to B, B to C, C to D, like you had written out, your five year
plan is not going to work. It's more serious, you know, six to
12 month plan in today's world. And so getting getting clear on
the why, and then being open to how that actually manifests,
right? And a perfect example, I guess is is with COVID. And
hopefully we don't have to go through anything like this
again. But you know, the reality of it is we're going to go
through something like something's going to happen,
right? And so a lot of service based industries that we're
working with people in person or the fitness industry, the
speaking industry is a great example. You had to go back.
Yeah, I can't be with people in person right now. But what is
the impact that I want to make? And what avenue what, what
medium can I use in order to get to the end result to get to the
impact? And I think knowing your purpose allows you to focus on
not so much be attached to the process of the impact, but the
impact itself? If that makes sense.
Adam Outland: Yeah. And I think about college, or high school
students where they're going through, a lot of them went
through a massive depressive period during COVID. Because
they were isolated. I mean, and so I guess, you know, if you
have one, what would be kind of an action that you would
suggest, whether it's, you know, a college athlete that maybe
just got injured, and it's going through that kind of function,
reprocessing their future, it's, it's figured out a new vision,
but what what are some other actions that maybe you suggest
to someone that's pulling themselves out of one mindset
into a healthier mindset?
Mike Lee: I got a lot of things that are coming to my mind,
because I think you know, a lot a lot of people go through
number number one like talking about for get get clear on a
vision, get clear on a why. Second thing is to just pay, you
know, try to operate with a beginner's mindset from the
standpoint of try to let go of this identity that you had in
the past and your passion from the past that maybe is maybe
it's just simply no longer possible. Maybe it is an injury,
that career ending injury, just it's just simply not possible
anymore. Probably come from it from a beginner's mindset from
the standpoint of just being really aware of what your
interests are. Maybe it's something that you were
interested in, in high school, but you were just so dedicated
to basketball or to football, or whatever it is that you just
couldn't couldn't pursue it. Right. It was just not you had
to braid one thing for the other pay attention to what just your
interests are, what were you're interested in, what did you
maybe want to do that you had to sacrifice? I don't think I feel
like I'm kind of lucky from the standpoint that that it was
clear for me. For some people it's not, I think one of the big
things to keep in mind is you don't always have to be
operating at this deeper level of purpose. But what you need to
do is you need to operate with a deep level of intention with
everything that you do. And so I think, you know, that takes a
little bit of the pressure off. I think there you know, there's
a lot a lot of people in the self help space leadership
space, everything is like you got to find your purpose, find
your purpose, find your why. Right. And it's like it's not it
comes when it comes and it's really important to give
yourself the permission to not have it figured out yet. I feel
like everything that I've done in my life has been here was a
pain point. I solved this, I figured it out. And now I'm
teaching somebody else to go through the same thing that I
went through. And so look at what are some pain points in
your life? What are some things what have you had to go through?
What are the lessons that you've learned? And now how can I use
this as a way how can I teach others how to go through the
same thing? Because if you went through it, somebody else went
through it and you probably have a unique perspective on on it
that is going to be able to connect with somebody else and
that's going to be fulfilling right art of purpose is finding
what's fulfilling. Well, what's fulfilling is, is you know,
being of service and helping other people out find find At a
pain point that you want to solve, figure out how to how to
go through it yourself and teach others to do it. That's a great
place to start, as you know, give yourself permission to not
have it figured out and to look at some pain points in your life
that you had to solve, and that you've learned something from
and you can teach to other people.
Adam Outland: Love that. We're going to end this with just
spitball questions that are somewhat short answer, just a
piece of technology that you feel you've used. Maybe it's an
app on your phone that's kind of helped in some of these ways. Is
there anything you'd recommend?
Mike Lee: I know, you said, short answer. I mean, up to
number one, A is fine. If you want to dive into talking about
meditation a lot in the beginning, you want to dive into
into meditation, get an app, you have to have a guided audio
experience, especially when you first start out reading about
it. And then trying to practice it or not having a guide is
incredibly frustrating. And you're going to quit because
it's going to be too challenging. So find a guided
app, let's face it, great. That's what I use. Second thing
is I don't talk about this a lot. But there's an app called
Focus timer. It's an app for it's a desktop app. I don't know
if they have it for your phone or not. But it's a desktop apps
for Mac for sure. Maybe for PC. And when you have a task that
you need to complete, we need like some sort of psychological
triggers, right? It's like when I was coaching, basketball
players, every drill that we did, our goal had had to hit
that goal within a certain timeframe, right, and it creates
psychological, it's a psychological trigger to get you
to lock in and get you to focus, right? So a focus timer and set
a time to complete certain tasks. I think it'll help help
you level up your focus.
Adam Outland: Productivity. Yeah. The last question is this
one piece of advice that you would give yourself at the age
of 21. Knowing everything you have now.
Mike Lee: Don't be so hard on yourself. It's all working out
the way it's supposed to. And the view every adversity as a
catalyst for growth, and not look at something that's
happening to you look at it as something that's happening for
you, and lean into that challenge that adversity with a
growth mindset. Because what you learn from that experience is
something that you're going to be able to teach and the more
you become, the more that you can give. And if you're
providing value for people, you're not gonna have to worry
about anything in your life.
Adam Outland: I think those last few sentences were the perfect
way to end a great interview. So thank you for making the time
for this Mike, it was really good.
Mike Lee: Yeah, thanks for having me on. We'll continue the
conversation soon.