[00:00:00] I got a question for you. Can you be awfully quiet and going places? Can you be introverted and usually successful? Can you be quiet in a meeting and still be perceived as smart and knowledgeable? You know, my answer to all of the above is yes, absolutely. But don't just take my word for it. In this episode, I'm going to prove it to you.

[00:00:28] As far as I'm concerned, I have the guests on the podcast today. I know that many of you follow him on socials. If you're anything like me, you're in awe of the creative work he does, and the career, personal brand, and business he has built for himself. What many of you don't know, and continue to be surprised about, is that he is an introvert.

[00:00:52] I am talking about none other than Chris Do. Emmy award winning designer, director, CEO, and founder of the future, an online education platform with the mission to teach 1 billion people how to make a living doing what they love. What I love about speaking to Chris on the topic of his introvert personality and the way he has built his career is he doesn't hold back.

[00:01:18] He owns being the awkward person in the room. He leverages his introversion to his advantage, and I feel like we can all learn a big deal from him. Throughout our conversation, he takes us into the early stages of his career. And share some really vulnerable stories that resonate deeply, making me, and I'm sure many of you feel seen, heard, and well, just not alone in the introvert experience.

[00:01:47] Chris offers some really practical tools and tactics to actually make your voice heard without having to be the loudest in the room, nor the one who always goes first. My personal highlight is Chris's journey into public speaking. As someone who, I quote, still hates public speaking, he manages to do it.

[00:02:09] Awfully well, and he's sharing exactly why he does it on this interview. I promise this episode is going to leave you feeling lucky to be introverted. I know I do. Without further ado, let's jump into the interview. All right. Well, Chris, thank you so much for joining me today and welcome to the awfully quiet podcast.

[00:02:33] Thanks for having me on.

[00:02:35] I'm really excited to be having this conversation today. We have connected on previous occasions before I've been on an Instagram live with you in the summer, which I remember fondly. And to me, there are a lot of things that stand out about you.

[00:02:49] So you're. Personal brand, your business, your career. And I want to get into all of that. There's one specific reason why I really wanted to have you on one is I know my audience really resonates with your work. and two is when I asked the audience, for questions they have about you in the context of introvert career content, they go.

[00:03:11] Is Chris Du an introvert? And I love that. I love that so much because there are so many misconceptions around what it means to be introverted. And unfortunately, they don't go, they don't often involve labels like, award winning designer, director, CEO, founder, like you are. So where I'd love to start is for you to tell me what makes you an introvert.

[00:03:36] How would you describe your personality?

[00:03:40] Okay. I love that we're having this kind of conversation. I'm going to make one adjustment to lighting. I realize it's getting a little dark here. There we go. All right. It's, it's wonderful. Okay. I don't believe you can change out of the introversion. It's a classification. Some therapists, right? Who figured out this classification. And it's about how we manage energy around, around groups of people. And that part has never changed about me. And it's, it's an interesting thing that people think that public speakers cannot be introverts. Those are totally different ideas.

[00:04:11] They're separate ideas because there are extroverts who don't like to do public speaking either. In fact, only a very small, small percentage of people like to do public speaking. And I do also know this, that if I'm around strangers, I start to feel my energy going down. But when I'm around friends, I feel like my energy can be maintained or I might actually even get excited.

[00:04:34] Give you an example. So when I went to school as a kid, I always felt different and as an outsider. And so those are not happy memories for me. Like, ugh, there's all these people I don't fit in and I do not belong here. And it's not my imagination. Some of them made me aware that I don't belong. In words and in deeds.

[00:04:54] But when, when it was a holiday, and my cousins would come over, cousins my age, and we would play, I was like so excited, oh my god, my cousin's coming here, we're gonna do some crazy stupid stuff, and we're gonna go play hide and seek and build forts and and catch up on what's going on. So we, we need to, we do need to understand that at least this is how it's worked for me.

[00:05:12] Most introverts, when they're around people that they really like and care, they don't feel their energy drained in the same way. But when we're around strangers and large groups of people that we don't know, that can be very scary for an introvert, and I still feel that way today.

[00:05:28] Yeah, it goes back to the social battery that we have and to me, it's often connected with a number of people I interact with. So if it's fewer people, I'm okay. I often draw energy from connections with like 1 to 1 or 2 to 1. With a smaller group that for me, it's not the more the merrier like that's where it gets tricky.

[00:05:48] It's like the more people in the room. the more energy I lose over time. Do you feel like there are limits to your social battery? or is it really just this sentiment off with people that, you know, you feel quite comfortable, but when it's a lot of strangers, it requires more energy from you.

[00:06:08] Yeah, I'm going to tell you a funny little story first, and then I'll answer that question, okay? Growing up, I watched Star Trek with, James Kirk, Captain James Kirk and Spock. And there was always this thing that, that Kirk was like a legend for beating this, this test. And the way that he beat the test, and later on it was revealed in subsequent shows, that the way he beat the test was he cheated.

[00:06:31] He changed the rules so that he can win because it was a test designed for everyone to fail. And it was legendary. So I kind of look at life like that. Like when the rules don't suit me, I change the rules so that it suits me because I like to play to win. So the rules of society are like, we don't know each other and there's a process of me getting outside of my own comfort zone so that I can get to know you that I'm just not very good at.

[00:06:55] I'm socially awkward. I'm a wallflower. I struggle with having or starting new conversations with people. And equally kind of comedic is like, I have a hard time once the conversation start, how do I get out of this conversation because I feel I'm stuck in it. You know, somebody's drinking at a party. I'm kind of stuck in this.

[00:07:13] And so I've changed the rules and here's how I look at it. I'm not good with strangers. So what I want to do is I want to make content so that those people have a sense that they know me and will just come up and speak to me. So I don't have to like, I see you're having a lot of fun. I'm sorry to interrupt, but I was just like, I'm excited to talk.

[00:07:32] I don't, I don't have that skill. I don't have that desire to do that. So I've gotten, and I say this on the stage, I've gotten good enough at creating content such that I don't actually have to develop social skills and it works in my favor. So when I walk in a room, I feel like really strange and weird and like my skin is crawling, but then some people are like, Oh, Hey, I watch your videos.

[00:07:55] Hey, I just wanted to say something. And usually what they say is something very nice. So it's like, okay, they're warming me up and then I don't have that problem.

[00:08:06] Isn't that such a great strategy? in terms of like, you know, putting content out there, you, you give people something to go with, and something to approach you with. So, I feel like that's almost like very intentional from your side in order to overcome that. And, Like you say, change the rules of the game, which I love because I think for us introverts, the sentiment is always, you know, how can we get out of it?

[00:08:30] How can we, you know, change ourselves in a way that, that suits society and these settings. But you actually went the other way around in terms of like, how can I make it work for me? Because I'm not going to change and I'm going to show up the same way, how I am. at the end of the day, a lot more authentic in that way.

[00:08:48] So I love that.

[00:08:51] I kind of look at it like this, like, if, let's say you're really short and the world's really tall to say, like, I'm going to be taller. It's like, it's not possible. I can wear platform shoes, but they're gonna make me feel uncomfortable. But if I design it in such that we're all swimming in the water, when we're meeting with people, now you can't tell how tall everybody is because everybody's the same height above the water level.

[00:09:11] And that's how I look at it. So I, I, I try to change that part of it.

[00:09:15] And, take me back to, you know, situations earlier in your career where you had to figure that out for the very first time, because, you went from, you know, graphic design into being a CEO, a founder, somebody who's really, really visible in the world. So at one point in time, you had to go into more of these rooms where there were a lot of strangers, and you probably had to overcome some of these situations.

[00:09:42] Take me back to one of those as an example to just kind of highlight, how you've overcome some of that and, How you've dealt with it early on in your career.

[00:09:53] I don't know, but I just don't feel like introversion and being a founder CEO are in conflict at all. In fact, the, some of the people we think are extroverts who run really big, successful companies, multi billion dollar companies are in fact introverts.

[00:10:08] And I'll tell you why I think being an introvert is actually an advantage when it comes to running companies. So the first part of your question, which is I aspire to run my own business. I can run my own business by myself, or I can run it with, or with a group of people helping me, but I want to be able to be a person who is in charge of manifesting my own career.

[00:10:33] And the only way I can do that is if I change the rules again. So if I work for someone, I'm dependent on the gatekeepers, the powers that be within the company to reward or promote me and give me responsibilities that I think I've earned. I don't like that. And I, I worked inside corporate America for a very short time, but I'm like, I don't think this is the place for me.

[00:10:52] And rather than complain to them and get them to change, I'm going to go and create my own thing. And so I create my own company. And yes, when it comes to talking to clients, we have what I believe is the common fear. This is a universal fear, which is. A client has a lot of power over you. They control the purse strings.

[00:11:13] They determine who they want to work with. And so the power dynamic is really lopsided. It doesn't matter if you're an introvert and extrovert. I think the introvert approaches those conversations with new business with a degree of anxiety, a little hyper self consciousness where it's like, Oh, am I going to say the right thing?

[00:11:32] And I wish I were more charming or something like that. And then that part, I feel. So we know that there are the majority of people aren't entrepreneurs. They don't run companies. There are more people who work for people who are entrepreneurs than they're entrepreneurs. Otherwise, entrepreneurs would have no team.

[00:11:51] We know that, right? Whether you're an extrovert or an introvert doesn't, doesn't really matter too much. So I discovered something fairly early on in my career as an entrepreneur. instead of feeling anxious of thinking about what to say and how to behave in a situation, number one, I would lean in on my talent.

[00:12:10] So if I practice my craft enough, for a while I can use that as a crutch to get me through the rough spots. So they knew that the work was good, that I knew what I was talking about when it came to the work, and I would not try to make more of that than just keep the conversation focused on the work and the project at hand.

[00:12:30] I'm not going to try to say, so what are you doing on Sunday? Are you playing golf? And how's like little Timmy and Mary doing? That's not me. I don't have that kind of interest, nor that ability to talk about that kind of stuff. Later on, I learned something, and this is a valuable skill. So as we're introverts, we tend to think a lot more than we speak.

[00:12:49] We tend to be a little bit more curious. We hold space for others, and this is where I believe it's an advantage. If you're in a leadership management position, because people feel seen and heard when they're around you, as opposed to people who feel the need to be the center of attention, the focus and to speak all the time.

[00:13:07] So, I, I was immediately acknowledged in the early stages of my career when, when a producer would turn to me like, Christelle, you're a deep thinker. So, if you're just quiet and ask a few questions, that's what people think. I could be thinking about what to have for lunch or where I'm going to go later that day.

[00:13:27] But their interpretation, if you're quiet and ask a couple of good questions, you must be a deep thinker. And that really started me on this pathway. This is not a problem at all. Being identified as a deep thinker is a good thing. It's a positive thing. So I'm excited about that. And then later on, I learned if you just ask people questions, It takes the pressure off you of saying anything intelligent or funny or witty.

[00:13:51] You just ask questions and it's a powerful thing and they feel seen and heard. And again, they have this positive feeling and sentiment and they assign that positive feeling to you even though all you've done was to be quiet, to be curious, and ask a few questions.

[00:14:08] I love that. And I love the reaction that you got to the deep thinking. And unfortunately, I'm afraid that's not the norm. I often feel like when introverts are being perceived as quiet, awfully quiet is the name of the podcast for that particular reason is it's often a bad thing or you're being awfully quiet.

[00:14:26] You must not be interested. You feel like you're closed off and distant and you're just not part of the conversation. Do you not care? But the opposite is true. And I love that you have been perceived as somebody who is a deep thinker instead, because that's what's actually going on. There's so much going on inside.

[00:14:44] Ourselves. And I think it also, is what brings with it a lot of the creativity, a lot of the thinking that then sets us apart from some of the other people in the room. you've met, so you've mentioned deep thinking, you've mentioned asking questions. What are some of the other traits that you feel are an advantage to you as an introvert, in, in your career?

[00:15:07] What has helped you sort of, stand out and be different?

[00:15:13] Hey Hannah, before I answer that question, I want to address the awfully quiet comment. Is that okay? Is that okay?

[00:15:19] Absolutely.

[00:15:20] Okay, so you and I know that there's lots of things that we do non verbally to communicate interest to people. So if I'm, if I'm sitting here looking at you like this the whole time, with my chin on my hand, like, whatever you're saying is pure gold to me.

[00:15:36] I don't have to say anything, and I'm demonstrating interest. If I'm nodding If I'm taking notes, like I often am taking notes, there's no question if I'm interested or not. Here's the problem with some people, whether you're an extrovert or introvert, it says the same thing. If you're slumped over, if you're recoiling in your chair and you look really uncomfortable and your shoulders are up by your ears and you look really tense and you're not making eye contact, it seems like your eyes are drifting off into the universe.

[00:16:06] When they see you're awfully quiet, it's like they're saying in an unkind way. Am I boring? Does any of this make sense to you? Because you show very little feedback and it makes people feel dysregulated in that we're not connecting, we're not seeing eye to eye. So there's lots of little things you can do.

[00:16:25] You can simply nod, you can look at them in the eye, you could take notes, which is my preferred way of doing things, or you can just say, wow, okay. You're just showing that I'm interested and you don't have to say anything.

[00:16:39] yeah. There's a lot we can do with body language in both virtual settings, but also in in person settings. Like you say, taking some notes. I'm also taking away nodding. Potentially just. Kind of smiling and reacting to what's being said. You mentioned asking questions. I often feel like that's a lot less uncomfortable than speaking up, sharing an opinion.

[00:17:02] So asking a question instead and interacting. So those are great tools, but, Some of them don't come naturally to us, so we have to almost remind ourselves to, to do that. And for me, particularly, I had to learn this because when I'm really concentrated on something, I get this really mean look on my face. And it's like. You know, staring, staring on my screen and like thinking deeply and it doesn't give off that vibe of, oh, she's really interested and she's, you know, resonating with, with what I'm saying. So, to me, that's something that I had to learn. and so I love that you're sharing that because that's almost like a little checklist that everyone can use, when they go into meetings.

[00:17:44] And when they go into the workplace, or interact with others, no matter what this looks like,

[00:17:50] This is very fascinating. So, what feels very natural to me, you were saying is not natural?

[00:17:58] it's not to me.

[00:18:00] Hmm.

[00:18:00] be, it might be to you. it's definitely not to me. So like, like I said, I had to remind myself

[00:18:06] Hmm. When you watch a movie, are you generally very reserved or are you reactive?

[00:18:14] reserved.

[00:18:15] So, if there's a scene that's, like, really tense, do you, like, clench up? Or you just sit there like, I'm not bothered by this at all. Do you ever cover your eyes? Like when it's like, Oh my God, it's just so violent. I can't, I can't.

[00:18:29] Well, first thing I wouldn't watch this kind of stuff in the first place. So

[00:18:35] Really?

[00:18:36] good question. Yeah, I do tend to tear up here and there depending on, yeah, yeah,

[00:18:42] I don't think we're as reserved as we think we

[00:18:44] But I'm also not as concentrated. So I'm really talking, kind of deep work, deep thinking. Coming up with ideas. I will often look out out of the window.

[00:18:55] that happens to me in conversations. Well, that I will look away when I think, and when I speak, and I know that's just something that signals to the other person. You're not really there. So you want to hold eye contact, which is something that I have to remind myself of. So, that's, that's why I'm saying it needs to be intentional.

[00:19:14] Yeah. Okay. So when one looks outside the window, our body is betraying us. We're like, we're not that interested. We're thinking about other things right now, or at least that's the way it appears. And I know for a lot of people making eye contact with someone can be exhausting. It really can. And it can dry out your eyes.

[00:19:31] You're like, wait, what's going on here. This feels very uncomfortable for me. So the alternative to that is just to write notes and to doodle. have shown that doodling helps you actually with with, the, your ability to recall what you've heard and absorb information in a deeper way. So back in the day, when we all had phones, like physical landlines, when, when someone would call us, like our, Our friend or cousin or somebody, we would sit there and doodle on the pad, right?

[00:20:00] We'll draw on, on mail and just draw. It actually helps you with concentration and focus. And so those are things that you can do. So if you know, like you're starting to drift away from the conversation and it's not gonna look good to anybody, just draw, draw diagrams, draw anything, draw flowers. It's a way for you to stay focused.

[00:20:17] And then when they turn to you and say, Hannah, what? What are your thoughts on this? You won't be like, huh? What's going on? Wait, are you talking to me? You actually be very deeply connected. And, and, and it's okay. And for the most part, people don't see what you're writing or drawing anyways. They feel like you're taking notes because of what they're saying really matters to you.

[00:20:36] So it's just, it's just a little trick to check in with yourself. Now

[00:20:40] love it.

[00:20:41] to answer your question, which was, what's the advantage of being an introvert? Of being awfully quiet. Well, I think if your ratio of listening to speaking is really low, or high, meaning you listen a lot and you speak very little, then every word you say will matter more to the people in the room.

[00:21:03] So the words that you then choose will be very powerful. Now, because you're an introvert doesn't mean you have great ability to articulate and have a wonderful vocabulary. You need to work on that. So if, if you're only going to say 10 words in a meeting, make sure those 10 words are the words you mean to say and the precise words.

[00:21:22] And we can work on that. So there's a period of time in my life, uh, when I got out of school that I started learning more vocabulary words. I was really listening in and absorbing the way that people spoke. So we can understand. Interesting, complicated, specific, nuanced words, but oftentimes we're confused as to how to use them in context.

[00:21:44] And so when we are around people who are well educated, who, who can, who have mastered communication, we should just hang around with them for a while so we can see patterns of speech that we can then emulate. So I find that a, if I'm introverted and I speak less, I'm really focused on what the person's saying.

[00:22:05] It gives me a time to think about what I want to ask or say. And I generally don't say something to be heard. I say something because I'm really curious, need clarification, or want to edify the person in front of me. Otherwise I don't say anything. And I think if we're, we're comfortable with that, then I think the, how we're perceived by others will change.

[00:22:29] Yeah, what I want to make sure everybody takes away is this, if you say less overall, what you're going to say matters more in the grand scheme of things. So that's really, really important. And, I also. Like that you are pointing out the prep and honing that skill that goes into showing up more confidently and articulating yourself better.

[00:22:54] Because again, that's something that may not come natural. there are a lot of, you know, I'm not a native English speaker. a lot of people in the workplace, and in business overall are not. Native English speakers, but we can all pick certain things up from the conversations that we have. So, I love the sentiment of working on that and becoming better over time in order to like, almost like level up, into that area where we want to be.

[00:23:19] And, something that, that you mentioned in terms of like the impact. That you have when you say something is truly important. And, I feel like this is something that is often underestimated, by a lot of introverts. So they'd rather push themselves to speak up more, the quantity rather than the quality.

[00:23:41] So what you're saying is focus on the quality, make sure what you're saying lands. and. You know, rather prep in advance, then come up with something just for the, for the sake of saying something

[00:23:54] Yes, can I, can I give you a real life example here?

[00:23:58] always.

[00:23:59] I'm invited to speak in, in a panel discussion, right? Panel discussion, I'm like, hmm, I don't love those, but okay. So, if you're in a panel discussion, let's say there's five people on stage and somebody asks this question, whatever the question might be, here's typically how it works out.

[00:24:15] The loudest, most extroverted person automatically starts speaking first. And that's not me. And so they'll go from 1 point to 1 point to 1 point. And if I'm the 5th person, I'm usually the 2nd to last or last person to speak. I asked myself this question. Has everything that I wanted to say been said already?

[00:24:36] If it has, I just say, I don't really have anything else to add to this. I think they did a great job. I really agree with Sarah or Bob what they said. Now, this is not always the case. So when they present their arguments or their answers, it gives me a moment to think because introverts will be a little bit more deliberate with their communication.

[00:24:59] So we'll wait. And so here are the different angles and they might say something that I agree with, but then there will be 30 percent that I disagree with. So I'm just kind of building up to this point where I need time to figure out what is my opinion or take on this. Do my experiences reflect what they're saying or something different?

[00:25:17] And then I'll say something, and usually I will say something that's contrarian to what they're saying, because otherwise, what's the point? And here's what happened. A friend of mine, Michael Janda, at one of these events came over to me and said, Chris, you always say the best things. And what he didn't realize it's, it's a strategy.

[00:25:37] Because they didn't give themselves time to think. They felt nervous to have this uncomfortable silence where I'm okay. And silence I'm used to silence. So I let them fill it up. Right. Cause if we think about it, in, in, let's say you're designing a logo, your first logo idea is usually not your best.

[00:25:54] Your last one isn't the best either, but somewhere in between where you work through the, the obvious answers, then you come up with something much more meaningful and profound. And so I, I, I just naturally default to speaking later because I don't know what it is I have to say yet. And I actually enjoy people saying whatever they're going to say, so I can find my angle.

[00:26:14] My angle is usually different, it's deeper, or there's something that challenges everyone. So that's an advantage. So you can definitely use this as, as, as a, as a life hack or, or a trick if you want.

[00:26:29] Yeah, let the experts go first, and then you'll be the one who's going to be remembered for saying something really smart. cool. Well, Chris, what I, what I'm really interested in is how did you get so bold? Like, did you start out like that? Do you always have this confidence of, I'm just going to do this slightly differently.

[00:26:49] I'm just going to be answering as a last person. I'm just going to be cool with it. Did you ever. And this was another question from the audience. Did you have a deal with, self doubt, self criticism, a level of imposter syndrome of, Oh my God, can I, can I even do this? what did this look like for you?

[00:27:10] I was about to make a joke cause I thought you asked me, were you always so bald, bald like as in hairless? It's like, well, not always. I mean, I started out in life this way and I'll end my life this way, but I did have hair somewhere in between. Okay. Okay. Okay. You're talking about being bold, okay, about believing in oneself.

[00:27:28] So, there is a stretch in my life from ages like 1 or 0 to about 18 ish? 19, where I didn't have much confidence at all. I was, I didn't know my own identity and I was searching for something. And it wasn't until I found design that I applied myself that I found a skill that I was good at, that came natural to me, that allowed me to be better than most people without even trying that hard.

[00:27:56] That was just the beginning, it was not the completion. So once I got into arts and I studied graphic design, and I put in the necessary 10, 000 hours, To learn my craft, I started to build up my own identity like this is who I'm going to be. I'm a designer. I understand typography. And it was demonstrated in such that while in class, my classmates were asking me to critique their work, even though we're exactly the same level.

[00:28:23] So I already demonstrated to my classmates that I was accelerating at a level that was moving beyond them. And so that further reinforces the idea that if you put in the work, and I did, because when they went and did other things, I went to the library. I poured through the books. I did the, the drawings, the tracings, the notations, and just learning as much as I can.

[00:28:46] Whereas they put in three hours into their homework, I put in eight, nine, ten hours into the work. And I just, I would compensate for my Insecurity by just by working harder and just immersing myself. And so friends were like, Hey, you go into that party. You want to have dinner with us? I'm like, no, a library closes at nine or 10.

[00:29:07] I'm going to be here. And they're like, you nerd. I'm like, yeah, I know. But then I was putting in that work. Right. I often will make this reference that, because I'm really into like, pugilistic sports, like, like boxing, for example. Most people feel that when they enter the ring, the outcome has already predetermined for a number of different reasons, because they're judging their posture.

[00:29:34] Their, their physical traits, like, are they cut, are they, do they look strong? Do they look like they have this hunger in their eyes, or do they look meek and they're questioning themselves because they didn't put in that work. And they also see the amount of sweat they have on themselves, like, are they cold or are they warmed up?

[00:29:50] Are they ready to fight? Because you don't want to start cold. And so the pundits will say, okay, it seems like this fighter will beat the other fighter. And so I, I feel like in the lame, in the game of life. Putting in that work to figure out what your skill is, is the thing that makes you prepared to have those conversations so that you can be confident.

[00:30:09] So that you don't have to criticize yourself. So I knew for a period of time, as long as I stayed in the zone of design, I was going to be really confident. If you took me outside, I'm going to be not confident again, but if I stayed in my zone, I'm going to be very confident.

[00:30:24] But what that means, too, is that confidence is not something that's a given. It's like you're born with it, but it's something that you actually work really hard for. And at one point in time, you're just going to feel, confidence through, potentially others coming to you for questions, or you're just putting in so much work that, you feel a lot stronger in your field.

[00:30:47] You feel like, you know, a lot more. So it's actually quite some effort that goes into it. It's not something that's. Given to you or not, and it's something we can become better at over time. I think there's 1 thing that stands out and what I've heard you speak about is that you've, you've done the same thing over and over again.

[00:31:09] So, you, you started in 1 place, you found design was your area of expertise and something that you really resonated with that came easy to you and you, stuck with it. In terms of like honing that skill over time. What, what made you so sure that that's the thing that you wanted to do?

[00:31:46] I say this is because I've done an experiment on my children.

[00:31:50] I would brainwash them when they're very small so that they have this impenetrable sense of self. My youngest son, his name is Matias, and Matias was very unsure of himself. So I would crawl into his bed every night as we snuggled and I put him to bed. I would just whisper things into his ear night after night after night.

[00:32:12] and, and, and then I would devise games that we would play to, to show him that the only thing that was holding him back was his own definition of himself. Such that now he lives in a bubble of self delusion. And I would have it no other way. There's very little you can say to my son that you could tear him down because I've been building him up and I test him all the time.

[00:32:35] So, I'll give you an example, real life example, okay? We go on these walks, which he doesn't love to do. And I'm literally more than three times his age when we walk, yet he has a hard time keeping up with me. And then we're walking one day, and I can't remember, but we walk by a house, and I said, and I already knew the answer, what do you think that is?

[00:32:53] And he said, oh, it must be this, that. I'm like, how do you know that? And his little brain was like processing it, so he came up with some strange, illogical observation. I said, I bet you it's not that. He goes, how do you know? I said, we'll see. So we walk up close to the house, and now we have evidence he was wrong. And I say to him, Matias, I'm not keeping count, but it seems like in the game of life, I've been right 3, 472 times, and you've been right zero times. You ever get tired of being wrong? And I say this to him and he turns to me as quick as possible and says, Dad, I only need to get it right one time and you'll be wrong.

[00:33:34] And I smiled. I'm like, that's my boy. The training has worked. You've, you've graduated to ninja level, right? So even to this day, like we work out sometimes, sometimes together, mostly separate and he'll flex in the mirror. I'm like, look at this muscle boy. He goes, no dad, cause the lighting is not right.

[00:33:50] That's why I'm like, we're in the same lighting, bro. We're in the same light, it goes, no, it's just, oh, because you've taken that pill or you've eaten the protein too. That's why he has a self defense mechanism that allows him to be super confident in who he is. And so all we do as parents now is to backfill his skill so that the skill matches his own self image, his own identity.

[00:34:13] And so I believe you can be programmed, but not many parents do this or instill this within their own children, right?

[00:34:20] Are so intentional, I just hope you didn't a B test with the other kid. Okay.

[00:34:32] So I didn't really need to do work on him. I needed to work on the little one. Okay, so this, this self belief. if you put in the work, you get acknowledged almost right away. And then when you're acknowledged, and, and, and people recognize this, well, that picks you up.

[00:34:49] You're like, hey, this must be working. So if you did something and someone says, oh my God, you're amazing. You're going to do more of that thing. So when I'm working in my, in, in, in classroom and my teacher is like, wow, you're a really good designer. I'm like, Oh, am I a designer now? Okay. Okay. Let me work on this a little bit more.

[00:35:06] What else can I do? And so I'm, I'm driven to just get more of what is good and do less of what is bad. So I'm like, okay, let me keep working on this. And every time you do this. The world rewards you, somebody says something or you get a bigger assignment or, you, you are put in a position of advantage and so I like that.

[00:35:25] So of course naturally I'm going to do more of that. One thing I learned later on is they're going to be lots of things I'm terrible at and trying to be good at all those things and measuring my own self worth on things that I'm not good at is a loser's errand here. So what I usually say now is I'm terrible at all those things, but I'm good at these two things. And that gives me permission not to beat myself up and to hold myself accountable to the things I'm good at, not what other people are doing. Because we're getting into this comparison trap, like, Oh, I'm not really good at public speaking. I'm not really good at doing 3d packaging. I'm not good at building websites.

[00:36:05] Oh, I'm so terrible. No, I just like, you know, I'm good at type. I'm not a great social media content. That's what I'm good at. And if you want to know more about that, I'm happy to talk about it. Otherwise that's your zone of genius. This will be mine and I'm okay with that.

[00:36:19] Yeah, I feel like it helps once you've amassed a certain expertise in one area that you can be confident about. It then almost gives you that leg to play with, like, some of the things that you're not as good at, and don't beat yourself up about it. So I feel like that helps in that sense.

[00:36:37] It can, and it doesn't have to be mastery. I'll give you another example. My wife loves tennis, I don't. And I've been playing tennis without any instruction, just swinging the racket a certain way. And then one day, she had her coach trainer there, and he goes, oh, would you like a pointer? Grab, grab the pad, the racket.

[00:36:56] I grabbed it, and he's like, okay, hold it this way. This is how you're supposed to hold it. And this is why. He showed me this one little tweak. And by doing that, my wrists move better. I'm like, Oh my God, I've swung this a thousand times. I've done it the wrong way. And just by holding the racket a specific way allowed me to hit the ball with more top spin, with more power, with less effort.

[00:37:17] And so now I feel like, okay, I'm better at tennis than I used to be. And I can build off that immediately. I'm not waiting to be a professional player. I can just take that and say, okay, I'm better than I used to be. This is good. I'm measuring my life in progress. The comparison between the way I used to be and the way I am now versus some idealized version of myself.

[00:37:35] That's the trap that people fall down.

[00:37:39] Yeah, I get that. And, often happens to me too. one thing that you mentioned around being called a designer. So somebody sees your work, calls you a designer. I feel like that's early stages of personal branding. That's how you are being recognized for some something. And you say that quite naturally, you've gone deeper and deeper into that skill and you've become better and better over time.

[00:38:03] And one day, you know, you, you built your own company and you become a CEO, you, and you're, you direct, you design on a much higher level than before. And you build this. This big personal brand that is now very widely known for someone who is at the beginning of that journey, say back to graphic design.

[00:38:24] What would you recommend they do in terms of building that personal brand? Would you say that you've done this with intention or you just kind of gotten better and better over time and you've been recognized and seen almost naturally?

[00:38:37] I wish I could tell you, Hannah, that, this was some master diabolical plan of mine. Like, hmm, it's so perfect. Things are working out exactly the way I had planned. And they're, they don't work that way. you, you are drawn towards things that you want to explore. And if you're not good at it, at some point you have to say, I'm going to quit.

[00:38:53] I want to do something else. And if you are lucky and fortunate, like I am, you find something that you're good at and you're like, okay, I'm going to do this thing. It seems to be working. I'll just do more of it. And then you're acknowledged and rewarded for it, and you keep doing that. And you start to build up your identity around this, and this is what I did.

[00:39:10] So the foundation of my house, the house of dough, the very bottom part, the foundational layers are the identity of a designer, a graphic designer, more specifically, and the house keeps getting built up like a public speaker. Okay, I could do that. A social media content creator. Okay. And an influencer or something else.

[00:39:28] And it just keeps getting built up. But that foundation, if something gets knocked, I can fall all the way down and know that that's a pretty solid foundation to build off of. And I'm okay with that. And so what's interesting right now is I think a lot of people feel this way, like they feel insecure.

[00:39:48] They feel like they have some kind of imposter syndrome and that exists because there's a gap between how you're perceived by others and your actual self perception and your skill level. I'll give you an example. People will throw all kinds of strange titles on me. They introduce me and say something like, Oh, he's a marketing guru.

[00:40:09] I'm like, I'm, I'm not a marketing guru. So instantly now I'm starting to feel self aware like, Oh, that's not me. And then you start to. Erode or eat away at your own self confidence, your self belief. And so when I heard that, I'm like, the public, or at least this one person, perceives me as a marketing guru.

[00:40:29] So I go back. I buy 10 books on marketing. I read 7 of them. So I'm going to close the gap between my skill level. And the public perception of me, and I'm not saying I'm a marketing guru. I'm not, I would never describe myself this way, but I'm much more confident and comfortable wearing that label. If someone should put it on me.

[00:40:53] Like, I'm comfortable in business. I know myself about business, about sales pricing negotiations, but I read many books from economists to negotiators to sales experts to make sure what I believe to be true is actually backed by other people's careful studied,books or programs, things that they develop, they put in that work and the research.

[00:41:15] So I'm like, yep, it pretty much aligns. Or there were little areas that you didn't know. And I would able, I was able to fill in those gaps. And I think that's the challenge in life. People put labels on you. And if you like that label, and if you don't feel like you're worthy of it, well go earn it. in the work.

[00:41:34] So I read many, many books on branding, many books on marketing, many books on sales so that the more labels people put on me, I'm like, yep, I think I can do that. And that's how we grow in our confidence centers and in our identity.

[00:41:51] And what does this journey look like from the inkling where you think about? Oh, public speaking could be interesting to me. I'm starting to learn more about it. I'm starting to acquire that skill to 1 day. Somebody calling you a public speaker. What does this look like? Yeah.

[00:42:17] already, right? You feel your. Your pits getting warmer. Yeah. Yeah, for real. So I'll explain like how or I'll tell the story about how I got into public speaking and at what point it made sense to me and try to document the salient points along the way and the struggles.

[00:42:35] Okay. I didn't ever aspire to be a public speaker. It wasn't until my, my business coach Kim McLaren who said, Chris. You need to go and do public speaking. You're trying in a weird way to be the world's best kept secret. And he said this, he looked me right in the eye and he meant it in sincerity in his voice.

[00:42:54] He said, you have a lot to offer the world, but not the rate in which you're going because no one knows about anything about you and what you have to say. Because I've seen you work with your, your students. I've seen you work with your employees. These are things that you need to share with others. So, of course, I volunteer.

[00:43:11] I'm a good student, so I volunteer to do some public speaking. And I'm terrible at it. And I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll chronicle the, the worst parts of it so people know that I'm telling the truth. Okay? One of the first speaking engagements I got was at Cal State Los Angeles. And there were two speakers. The other speaker was a former professor of mine from Art Center, who's well spoken, who's charming, who's used to doing this.

[00:43:36] He's 20 plus years my senior, and I'm sitting there thinking, Oh, this is going to be bad. He goes first. I go second. And I'm like, Oh, why did he have to do this to me? So I'm, I'm trying my best to get through the presentation. I show my work. I talk about the ideas and things. And the interesting thing is afterwards, his name is Wayne, Wayne Hunt.

[00:43:58] I think he still teaches at Art Center. I said, Wayne, you're a tough act to follow. that was rough for me and I was just being real and vulnerable and genuine with him. I wasn't just trying to puff him up and he's turned to me, he's like, Chris, I'm the old man. The kids care about what you're doing.

[00:44:12] They don't care about what I'm doing at all. So we're both being, we're acknowledging each other and being generous in how we look at each other. And so he gave me a gift. His gift was, you know what? Don't, don't, undersell what it is that you're bringing to the table. And so that was me, like one tiny little pebble in the jar of confidence.

[00:44:33] that was eventually going to fill up. That's not a no for me. I did another talk at TypeCon, a typography conference in L. A. And everything that could go wrong went wrong. My keynote that I sent ahead of time, no one looked at. All the notes were gone. the formatting, the fonts were wrong. And I'm speaking between people that are my contemporaries and people that I've looked up to all my life.

[00:44:58] And they're showing this amazing work. I'm like, oh my god. This is going to be bad and I'm scrambling with note cards to try to remember what I was going to say about each of the slides and feeling really frustrated and angry at the event organizer who asked me to send my deck two days in advance so that they can check it. So I'm like, why did I even do this, you guys? If you're, this is terrible. And I didn't bring my presentation with me because you theoretically took care of this. So I was like in all kinds of trouble and I really had a rough one. That was probably the worst talk I've ever done in my life. So I apologize to every single person who was there.

[00:45:38] That is like, I was nervous, really uptight. I was fumbling my way through my own presentation because I was all kinds of mixed emotions instead of saying, you know what, chill the f out. Do your thing and then Get off the stage. So that was one of the worst ones. And so I went to, to Kir, that was terrible.

[00:45:59] He goes, what happened? I said, well, everything that went wrong, that could have gone wrong, went wrong. And he said this, he says, you need to devise a way of presenting that is comfortable for you, that would never put you like in a discomfort, like an uncomfortable place because something went wrong. And I said, okay.

[00:46:19] And he didn't tell me how, but I figured it out. I create storyboards for a living. That's it. I create images and I pitch those images to potential clients and I tell them what's happening in each frame. So when he told me that I'm like, Oh, I'll design my keynote moving forward. Still from a storyboard for a story I want to tell.

[00:46:42] So when I did that, it was very easy because there were images that I'm like, so here's what I want you to know about what I'm showing you here. And that started to get me settled in, and it took about two and a half years of doing this before I felt comfortable. And the key to the breakthrough is to not have so much time elapse between speaking engagements.

[00:47:05] So when you do two or three talks a year, you might as well be doing one because the time between those talks are so far apart that you're super rusty and you're like, okay, let me figure out how to do this again. So when I increase the frequency of the talks and shorten the gaps in between, I was able to put in the repetitions.

[00:47:24] And acquired the skills to be a better public speaker and to be more confident. And it took a while, I would say about, I think from the time in which I started about three years in, I remember the moment because I called my wife immediately after speaking. I said, honey, you just won't believe it. She goes, what?

[00:47:39] Is everything okay? You never call me when you're doing these talks. I said, well, I did it and I wasn't nervous for the first time. And then she said something to me. She said. Remember everything that led to this moment. You need to repeat that. You need to create your own blueprint for success. And I'm like, you're right, babe, you're right.

[00:47:59] And I, and then I would try to repeat the sequence of events, so they became habit for me.

[00:48:07] so grateful that you're sharing that, Chris, because I feel like that's an experience that every one of us has quite frequently, but all we ever see is the highlight highlight reel with a speaker like you, obviously, now, we will look at you and think, oh, wow, he's doing so well, you know, it must be God given.

[00:48:27] And. And I appreciate that so much that you're sharing that. and one thing I resonated with right at the beginning was the sentiment of you're the world's best kept secret. And I feel like that's a lot of introverts problems too, in terms of. Somebody is doing something really well, but nobody sees it because nobody really knows it.

[00:48:50] We're not speaking about it. We're not, we don't toot our own horn. We're not as outgoing with our achievements. We don't quite sell ourselves as often as we should, and it can feel really awkward and salesy to be doing that. And so I've actually feel that personal branding is a very introvert friendly tool to be getting out there and to be almost, find a subtle way of landing those messages of, Oh, here's something that I do really well and becoming known for it in a way that doesn't require you to shout it from the rooftops and, have people recognize you for that build positive word of mouth and make sure that, Yeah.

[00:49:28] It's something that gets out there without you having to do all the heavy lifting. And so that's why I love your work on personal branding and you showcasing that in terms of like you focus on your own way. You focus on getting better at what you do over time and the world will take notice.

[00:49:50] Yes, and I want to give you a little tip here, everybody. So, It is very difficult for most people are like, Oh, look at my project. Aren't I so

[00:49:59] Yeah.

[00:49:59] Look at how amazing I am. Like these hands, just God's gift, you know, to the design universe. There's a better way to create content that is more in alignment with who you are and how you want to be perceived.

[00:50:11] And I'll tell you how to do it. Okay. So instead of talking about the project directly, we talk about the project indirectly. We want to tell a story about our real life struggles. And we use the project as a backdrop, not as the main figure. So I'll give you an example before and after, so if we finished making a commercial for one of our clients, the old way in which we would write or talk about, it's like, and it's, it's kind of a strange formula that we all use, which is, Oh, we want to thank our partners at the agency for allowing us to work on this project.

[00:50:44] I, you know, we were able to solve X, Y, Z problem and congratulations to everyone who worked on a team, something like that. It's a big kind of puff piece. You. You, thank your clients, you, you thank your team, and you talk about like the problems in which you were able to solve and the goals, or the outcomes you were able to achieve.

[00:51:03] That's the standard PR press release model. Okay? A different way of doing it, that is going to be easier to talk about, more memorable, and build an audience quicker, is not to do that. The way you would talk about it is this, something like this. when I was in high school, I had the fear of speaking up.

[00:51:26] But I was fascinated by biology or something like that. And it's hard for me to imagine that 20 years later, I would be working with the Marine Institute for the preservation of oceans or something like that. And you just talk about that. So it's a self, it's a story about you and your struggles, and how grateful you are in, in, in how you document your own growth.

[00:51:55] And your own journey, less about the thing that you just made. So, the thing that you made is just a backdrop.

[00:52:04] I like that. I also like kind of subtly weaving in some of your story and some of your personality as well, because you just told the audience that you've been someone who was rather afraid to speak up, but you were really interested in biology. So that's, that's really interesting. A really nice and subtle way of like, you know, bringing across your personality without saying, Oh, I'm an introvert and I'm awkward speaking up.

[00:52:29] Oh, I would

[00:52:30] we sit in a nice way. Hmm.

[00:52:36] You go all in on this. I'll give you an example, okay? I've been able to be very fortunate to win an Emmy for a music video that I produce. So I have this picture. And it's an awkward picture. It's me holding the statue up on stage in a tuxedo, kind of like this, and it's kind of really weird.

[00:52:54] It's a very strange pose. I'm like, God dang it. Can't you just hold it up like a normal person? But I'm all weird holding it up. And then I write this story about, how nervous I was to receive this award. And everything that led up to it, the writing, the speech, the sleepless nights, the instruction from the academy saying, You have 30 seconds, make it pithy, make it memorable, don't do what everyone else does.

[00:53:17] So, there's so much pressure and describe all the stuff that leads up to it. My knees shaking, almost missing my call to be on stage and rushing up, running past the beautiful people in my brand new Dolce Gabbana shoes and super slippery, thinking I was going to fall in front of everybody. These are all the circumstances leading up to this story, and then finally getting in line, thinking about what I'm going to say, having changed my speech 38 times, only to be told they're running over time, we will not be able to give a speech.

[00:53:50] Hit your mark on the floor, get the statue, and come back here. And feeling so relieved that that was the case. So it's a moment of hijinks, anxiety, and humor, and just, just like pit of your stomach, I feel so uncomfortable just reading the story. No one even knows what the Emmy was for. I didn't even talk about the project.

[00:54:13] And this to date has been my highest performing post on LinkedIn. It has almost 9, 000 reactions to it. A good post for me has about 3000. So I'm, I'm just letting you know something. People are tired of reading about projects and accomplishments. It doesn't reveal anything about you as a person. And when we talk about personal branding, we're missing the key and operative word here.

[00:54:40] It's the person or the personality in the branding. So if you share none of that, you're really not building personal branding. You're just showing your work. Nothing wrong with that, but you're just showing work. And that is, in this very noisy world that we live in, very forgettable.

[00:55:00] Yeah, and, the, the personality in the personal brand is actually something that, might cue to some of the things that you should be louder about in terms of, like, what are the things that you're hiding? I would often go into, You know, career conversations or career interviews, and I'll say that I'm introverted.

[00:55:18] I would often say I'm an extroverted introvert to make it sound a little less bad, you know? And at one point I just stopped doing that. And I feel like that's exactly what you're saying in terms of like, what are the things give you an edge that give you something to stand out that are true about you and not about everyone else and use these more in order to, in fact, stay out in the first place.

[00:55:43] Yeah, I want to tell some people, whoever's listening to this, and I think it's the right tribe for me to say this. Vulnerability is strength, and strength is weak. So when you can own who you are, all of you, People will find that courageous and very confident. I don't believe introversion is a bad thing. I believe it's a good thing.

[00:56:05] I also believe extroversion is a good thing. So I'm not here to apologize for my introversion. I'm just going to be 100 percent myself, let you know that I'm comfortable with it, and put you at ease as well. So I literally go up on stage and say, here's the misconception that some of you might not know about me.

[00:56:22] I hate public speaking. And I'll just say it right up on stage. I say, But I realize this is the cost of entry for me to build meaningful relationships with a bunch of strangers. You don't know me from Jack. And until I show you I'm a person worthy of having a conversation with you, you will not. Because I'm super socially awkward.

[00:56:40] And I, I endeavor to make content so good that you'll come up and talk to me later today. I don't apologize for this. And I, and I've said this and it's not a new thought. I would rather be hated for being me than to be loved for not being me. And so I say it very clearly, I am who I am. You get to decide if this is attractive to you or it's repelling.

[00:57:01] I'm okay with either one, but I don't want it to be confusing to you as to who you think I am. I want to be very clear. So I have strong opinions that I hold loosely and that's okay. So I, I would not encourage anybody to go in as like to try to pretend that pretending to be something else is a thing that drives your imposter syndrome, that eats away at your own confidence and makes you more insecure. When you embrace it, that's power. So I want to encourage you to stand in your power. Great.

[00:57:36] what I've seen on the future where you say, you're trying to teach people to make a living doing what they love without losing their soul. And I think that the thing about without losing their soul is a sentiment of.

[00:57:49] Standing in your power, being who you are, not pretending to be somebody else for the sake of coming across a certain way, but in certainly staying true to who you are, being that introvert, awkward self, you're not losing your soul in the process and you get to do what you love. And, that's what I'm taking away from the conversation. Chris, we're out of time. I could, you know, go on and on talking about introversion with you. And I'm so, so glad that you came on and I'm sure that, everyone listening will take this away. We'll take this to heart and have so many tools, so much wisdom, so much knowledge to, go into those meetings to get out there and, you know, start their endeavors, on the right foot.

[00:58:32] Thank you very much. So you just added two labels, right? You said so much knowledge and so much wisdom. Now I have to go read more books and be wiser to earn that label. So thank you.

[00:58:44] I'm sure you're good in that,