1 00:00:00,283 --> 00:00:04,125 Hey everybody and welcome to the Stitch Please podcast. 2 00:00:04,125 --> 00:00:05,806 I'm your host, Lisa Woolfork. 3 00:00:05,806 --> 00:00:10,830 And as I say every week, this is a very special episode, but for real, for real, 4 00:00:10,830 --> 00:00:15,093 this one is like, for real, for real special, because I am talking with none 5 00:00:15,093 --> 00:00:16,594 other than the Dr. 6 00:00:16,594 --> 00:00:21,717 Joy Harden Bradford, a licensed clinical psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia, who has 7 00:00:21,717 --> 00:00:28,542 created a platform that not only saves us, but helps us save ourselves. 8 00:00:28,922 --> 00:00:29,882 And has- 9 00:00:29,903 --> 00:00:37,349 rooted such a gorgeous community in what feels like freedom, that it is a blessing 10 00:00:37,349 --> 00:00:44,955 to start this year and to start this, I don't know, this season of our lives with 11 00:00:44,955 --> 00:00:46,497 the book that Dr. 12 00:00:46,497 --> 00:00:50,020 Joy has brought into the world, Sisterhood Heals. 13 00:00:50,020 --> 00:00:51,041 Welcome Dr. 14 00:00:51,041 --> 00:00:53,502 Joy to the Stitch Please podcast. 15 00:00:54,404 --> 00:00:55,691 Oh, thank you so much, Lisa. 16 00:00:55,691 --> 00:00:57,660 I love a beautiful introduction. 17 00:00:58,767 --> 00:01:06,152 Well, it was easy to do because you have created something that is like a fountain. 18 00:01:06,873 --> 00:01:10,797 It's a book, but it's not a book to be read. 19 00:01:10,797 --> 00:01:12,858 It is a book to be savored. 20 00:01:12,858 --> 00:01:20,144 It is a book to be read and reread that even in preparing for the interview, I 21 00:01:20,144 --> 00:01:22,746 went back and it was like I was in graduate school again. 22 00:01:22,746 --> 00:01:27,915 I got all these tabs and underlines and highlights and questions and... 23 00:01:27,915 --> 00:01:28,955 arrows. 24 00:01:28,955 --> 00:01:33,598 And it was because the book took me through a journey. 25 00:01:33,738 --> 00:01:40,363 And I wanted to start our conversation today with how you, in terms of 26 00:01:40,363 --> 00:01:45,566 formulating the book or the idea for the book, what was the first step for you in 27 00:01:45,566 --> 00:01:47,026 that journey? 28 00:01:48,390 --> 00:01:51,731 So Lisa, I don't know if you've heard this story before, but Sisterhood Heals was 29 00:01:51,731 --> 00:01:55,113 actually designed to be an in-person experience. 30 00:01:55,413 --> 00:02:00,115 So the community had been asking for like an in-person activity or like a conference 31 00:02:00,115 --> 00:02:00,575 kind of thing. 32 00:02:00,575 --> 00:02:03,737 And so we were planning to do that in 2020. 33 00:02:03,757 --> 00:02:07,518 And then of course we know what happened in 2020. 34 00:02:08,319 --> 00:02:09,939 Right, right. 35 00:02:09,939 --> 00:02:14,141 So we were hoping, so Sisterhood Heals was the name of what the event was going to 36 00:02:14,141 --> 00:02:14,741 be. 37 00:02:15,146 --> 00:02:19,671 And so of course, after we were in the pandemic, I had a conversation with my 38 00:02:19,671 --> 00:02:23,296 literary agent about, well, what were you planning to cover that weekend? 39 00:02:23,296 --> 00:02:25,199 Like, what did you want that weekend to be about? 40 00:02:25,199 --> 00:02:30,646 And so through conversations with her, it actually became the outline for the book. 41 00:02:30,646 --> 00:02:33,589 So the book really is kind of a... 42 00:02:33,982 --> 00:02:38,505 It follows an outline of what I wanted to have happen that weekend, but not closely, 43 00:02:38,505 --> 00:02:38,705 right? 44 00:02:38,705 --> 00:02:42,788 Cause clearly all that's in the book could not have been covered in a weekend, but it 45 00:02:42,788 --> 00:02:46,190 really kind of captures the spirit of what I would have liked to have happened in 46 00:02:46,190 --> 00:02:49,872 that in-person event, which is conversations about sisterhood, a 47 00:02:49,872 --> 00:02:55,276 celebration of who we are to one another, but also some gentle challenges about how 48 00:02:55,276 --> 00:02:57,958 we could be better to and for one another. 49 00:02:59,767 --> 00:03:07,911 And I'm so glad you explained that because it helps me to better understand why the 50 00:03:07,911 --> 00:03:11,073 book feels so enveloping. 51 00:03:11,573 --> 00:03:17,556 It feels as though when my reading experience was one of feeling as if I was 52 00:03:17,556 --> 00:03:20,078 being held. 53 00:03:20,078 --> 00:03:27,962 There were so many points where you were able to direct our attention to how Black 54 00:03:27,962 --> 00:03:28,802 women 55 00:03:28,823 --> 00:03:42,212 and sisterhood itself became a necessary strategy, a necessary thing for our own, 56 00:03:42,212 --> 00:03:45,854 not just survival, but thriving. 57 00:03:46,395 --> 00:03:48,997 And you don't shy away from the difficult things. 58 00:03:48,997 --> 00:03:53,320 And I will, I want to get to that in the course of this conversation, but I want to 59 00:03:53,320 --> 00:03:57,763 just look really quickly, y'all, on page, on page XV, that's page 15 in the. 60 00:03:57,763 --> 00:04:00,244 Roman numerals as part of the delightful introduction. 61 00:04:00,585 --> 00:04:03,788 I'm gonna do a terrible job reading this because I am not Dr. 62 00:04:03,788 --> 00:04:04,308 Joy. 63 00:04:04,308 --> 00:04:07,931 But she talks about sisterhood as such a vibrant life force for black women. 64 00:04:07,931 --> 00:04:12,215 It is sacred and as such it is important for us to pay attention to the things that 65 00:04:12,215 --> 00:04:16,638 make it difficult and do a better job of navigating those challenges so that it can 66 00:04:16,638 --> 00:04:22,423 continue to be what we need to get through the world together. 67 00:04:22,423 --> 00:04:26,746 And it's that even that one sentence just made me feel like 68 00:04:27,727 --> 00:04:30,628 I am in good hands. 69 00:04:30,628 --> 00:04:32,148 I knew that already. 70 00:04:32,549 --> 00:04:35,710 But there was something about that sentence. 71 00:04:35,710 --> 00:04:41,572 Can you talk a bit about how the transformation from you wanted this to be 72 00:04:41,572 --> 00:04:48,375 an event, but it also feels like it's such a beautiful, almost consolidation of the 73 00:04:48,375 --> 00:04:54,357 Therapy for Black Girls project as a whole, that even if, you know, even though 74 00:04:54,357 --> 00:04:57,198 the event was canceled, it's like this is... 75 00:04:57,335 --> 00:05:02,278 a component of that or a giant, a platform for that or like, I don't know. 76 00:05:02,278 --> 00:05:06,060 It's just feels like a, it's a reason that this book feels like an event. 77 00:05:06,141 --> 00:05:07,542 It feels like an event. 78 00:05:07,542 --> 00:05:12,285 It feels like a multifaceted party. 79 00:05:12,285 --> 00:05:15,387 I'm laughing one minute, I'm boohooing the next. 80 00:05:15,387 --> 00:05:18,389 And, you know, asking myself the same questions all along. 81 00:05:18,389 --> 00:05:21,912 I'm like, oh my gosh, she got shushed off the back porch too, because she got 82 00:05:21,912 --> 00:05:23,653 discovered mind and grown people's business. 83 00:05:23,653 --> 00:05:26,034 Like these little things. 84 00:05:26,459 --> 00:05:31,666 that happened to us, that we just don't, I don't know, that none of this is in 85 00:05:31,666 --> 00:05:32,247 isolation. 86 00:05:32,247 --> 00:05:40,677 So can you talk just a bit about the angle of the whole project that you've created 87 00:05:40,677 --> 00:05:45,222 and how you're helping us to hold one another, both in accountability and love? 88 00:05:45,734 --> 00:05:46,414 Yeah. 89 00:05:46,414 --> 00:05:51,136 So I think, you know, the book cannot be divorced from the time at which I wrote 90 00:05:51,136 --> 00:05:53,816 it, which was in the pandemic, right? 91 00:05:53,816 --> 00:05:58,077 And so, you know, while sisterhood has been important and I do really feel like 92 00:05:58,077 --> 00:06:01,378 has been the foundation of all the things that we have done at Therapy for Black 93 00:06:01,378 --> 00:06:07,460 Girls, it feels like at the time I was writing the book, we were all kind of in a 94 00:06:07,460 --> 00:06:08,180 tizzy, right? 95 00:06:08,180 --> 00:06:11,761 Like we didn't really know what was happening, you know, everything felt 96 00:06:11,761 --> 00:06:13,078 really anxious. 97 00:06:13,078 --> 00:06:18,442 But even in that, there were so many beautiful examples of sisters stepping up 98 00:06:18,442 --> 00:06:19,923 for one another, right? 99 00:06:19,923 --> 00:06:25,027 So there were no shortage of, you know, GoFundMe's and people going to get 100 00:06:25,027 --> 00:06:30,492 medicine for sisters in their neighborhood and like doing Zoom daycare sessions with 101 00:06:30,492 --> 00:06:31,993 the kids in the neighborhood. 102 00:06:31,993 --> 00:06:36,337 Like just all of these ways that we already knew that Black women typically 103 00:06:36,337 --> 00:06:39,359 show up for one another, we were seeing in real time. 104 00:06:39,359 --> 00:06:42,014 And I think it became more magnified because 105 00:06:42,014 --> 00:06:46,836 at the same time, we were also seeing all these systems that I think maybe many of 106 00:06:46,836 --> 00:06:49,518 us thought would be there to save us. 107 00:06:49,518 --> 00:06:52,580 We realized that like we really are all we got, right? 108 00:06:52,580 --> 00:06:56,642 Like when we say like we all we got, I think the pandemic really showed us that 109 00:06:56,642 --> 00:06:58,283 in real time. 110 00:06:58,283 --> 00:07:03,406 And so the book really is, I think, an attempt. 111 00:07:03,406 --> 00:07:07,748 I always say an attempt to give language to that thing that I think often feels 112 00:07:07,748 --> 00:07:10,469 really hard to give language to. 113 00:07:10,474 --> 00:07:12,154 that happens between Black women, right? 114 00:07:12,154 --> 00:07:17,297 Like we kind of know it, I think, you know, in some ways, but it has often felt 115 00:07:17,297 --> 00:07:20,478 intangible and like really difficult to put into words. 116 00:07:20,478 --> 00:07:23,560 But I really felt like it was important for there to be words, right? 117 00:07:23,560 --> 00:07:28,562 Like as a psychologist, I know that this thing that happens with Black women is 118 00:07:28,562 --> 00:07:32,624 something that needs to be documented, that there needs to be some kind of 119 00:07:32,624 --> 00:07:36,258 theory, some kind of language, some kind of like, okay, if it's in a book. 120 00:07:36,258 --> 00:07:39,621 then I can point to this as actual and factual. 121 00:07:39,621 --> 00:07:43,304 And so the book really is an attempt to kind of give some grounding and to give 122 00:07:43,304 --> 00:07:47,749 some language to this thing that I think we often do so naturally, but also again, 123 00:07:47,749 --> 00:07:53,133 an invitation to how we can lean more into sisterhood to be a healing space for us. 124 00:07:54,723 --> 00:08:01,046 I am so moved by this because in many ways, the story of Black Women's Stitch is 125 00:08:01,046 --> 00:08:04,427 the story of Sisterhood Heals. 126 00:08:04,488 --> 00:08:09,751 It is the story of recovery from racial justice organizing and white supremacist 127 00:08:09,751 --> 00:08:12,552 terrorism and all of these things. 128 00:08:12,592 --> 00:08:19,836 And for me, as someone who was reading it, I just felt like even though I did not 129 00:08:19,836 --> 00:08:24,818 have this book at the time of that experience, 130 00:08:25,731 --> 00:08:32,834 it was about three years after you founded Therapy for Black Girls, that I do have 131 00:08:33,715 --> 00:08:34,936 this experience. 132 00:08:34,936 --> 00:08:41,599 And it just mapped on so beautifully that it made me realize that what you've 133 00:08:41,599 --> 00:08:44,600 created is equipping. 134 00:08:44,801 --> 00:08:46,722 It is a resource. 135 00:08:46,722 --> 00:08:48,602 And so I thank you for... 136 00:08:48,751 --> 00:08:52,372 You know, you talk just a bit about the citational practice. 137 00:08:52,372 --> 00:08:57,193 Someone needs to cite this book or someone needs to refer to it or whatever, but it 138 00:08:57,193 --> 00:09:07,096 also needs to exist as an affirmation and a guide and a sign of possibility. 139 00:09:07,376 --> 00:09:12,757 And that's another like really powerful element of this work. 140 00:09:12,757 --> 00:09:17,327 I love how you bridge, um, press fact and fiction. 141 00:09:17,327 --> 00:09:21,169 You know, I really love the series that you did on Insecure. 142 00:09:21,169 --> 00:09:25,311 And if you were team Issa or team Molly and working through their relationships. 143 00:09:25,311 --> 00:09:28,853 And I think it was also pandemic time, perhaps, because a lot of us, I just felt 144 00:09:28,853 --> 00:09:35,157 like I finally got into Insecure after that and was very much invested in this 145 00:09:35,157 --> 00:09:35,597 friendship. 146 00:09:35,597 --> 00:09:36,618 Like I knew these girls. 147 00:09:36,618 --> 00:09:39,639 Like, I don't know, how they gonna figure this out? 148 00:09:39,639 --> 00:09:41,220 And why would she say that? 149 00:09:41,220 --> 00:09:45,542 Oh my God, you know, like really invested. 150 00:09:45,563 --> 00:09:51,647 But I think it also becomes a platform for how we can work out some issues ourselves. 151 00:09:51,647 --> 00:09:56,391 Can you talk a bit about why you like to use popular culture or why you thought 152 00:09:56,391 --> 00:10:01,054 Insecure was a good vehicle to discuss these things? 153 00:10:01,398 --> 00:10:02,118 Mm-hmm. 154 00:10:02,118 --> 00:10:06,040 You know, I think, Lisa, pop culture just, well, one, I spend a lot of time watching 155 00:10:06,040 --> 00:10:10,001 and reading and listening to stuff, so it feels like a good way to, like, make use 156 00:10:10,001 --> 00:10:12,682 of all these things that I'm spending time doing. 157 00:10:12,682 --> 00:10:15,824 But I think pop culture is often so accessible, right? 158 00:10:15,824 --> 00:10:18,685 Like, you know, so many people were watching Intercure. 159 00:10:18,685 --> 00:10:22,566 Like, we are all often watching and listening to the same things. 160 00:10:22,566 --> 00:10:27,148 And I think when you see themes like that present on a screen like that, right, like 161 00:10:27,148 --> 00:10:30,189 where we are following the story of these people. 162 00:10:30,354 --> 00:10:35,297 it makes it easy for you to kind of like talk about the characters in a way that 163 00:10:35,297 --> 00:10:39,661 like doesn't necessarily implicate you, but you know that it has some implications 164 00:10:39,661 --> 00:10:40,702 for your real life. 165 00:10:40,702 --> 00:10:41,522 Right. 166 00:10:41,783 --> 00:10:47,907 And so I think that storyline between Molly and Issa was so impactful to a lot 167 00:10:47,907 --> 00:10:52,911 of black women because it is one of the only instances I can think of where we saw 168 00:10:52,911 --> 00:10:56,113 like a friendship breakup that felt so raw. 169 00:10:56,210 --> 00:10:59,691 And I feel like there's been so many conversations about breakups with friends 170 00:10:59,691 --> 00:11:02,753 and like, that has just been kind of in the ethos for the past couple of years. 171 00:11:02,753 --> 00:11:07,035 And so I think when we saw it on Insecure, it was just a beautiful way to kind of 172 00:11:07,035 --> 00:11:11,177 talk about these things that often happen with black women, but that maybe we didn't 173 00:11:11,177 --> 00:11:14,458 have examples for, or like, oh, you're not supposed to talk about that in public, 174 00:11:14,458 --> 00:11:15,098 right? 175 00:11:15,098 --> 00:11:19,460 And so being able to use the story of these characters really made it easy to 176 00:11:19,460 --> 00:11:23,462 kind of dissect like, okay, what would you do in this example and who was wrong here? 177 00:11:23,462 --> 00:11:25,583 And how would you take accountability? 178 00:11:26,264 --> 00:11:30,151 culture gives us a lens and an end to be able to talk about maybe some more 179 00:11:30,151 --> 00:11:33,637 difficult things without it being talking about us. 180 00:11:35,379 --> 00:11:37,360 And I agree with that so much. 181 00:11:37,360 --> 00:11:43,122 And it also, even if we step back and look at Insecure itself, the idea of being 182 00:11:43,122 --> 00:11:46,584 something that we hadn't seen before, because this is a black woman creating 183 00:11:46,584 --> 00:11:47,244 this. 184 00:11:47,244 --> 00:11:54,427 This is a black woman with a black team and a black cast and a black photo 185 00:11:54,427 --> 00:11:58,649 director, black lighting, someone who knows how to light dark skin, black 186 00:11:58,649 --> 00:11:59,049 people. 187 00:11:59,049 --> 00:12:01,570 So we look gorgeous like we do in real life. 188 00:12:01,699 --> 00:12:08,264 I think that's another thing that made Insecure a kind of cultural property, but 189 00:12:08,264 --> 00:12:14,288 also a form of cultural affirmation, a form of recognition that we can see our 190 00:12:14,288 --> 00:12:15,349 lives. 191 00:12:15,850 --> 00:12:20,934 You know, the ridiculous friend, I think it was this really hilarious line, I'm not 192 00:12:20,934 --> 00:12:24,956 sure if it was Issa's brother said to Kelly, do you listen to yourself? 193 00:12:25,037 --> 00:12:27,258 And she said, yeah, I got a podcast. 194 00:12:29,432 --> 00:12:29,733 Yes. 195 00:12:29,733 --> 00:12:30,259 Right, right. 196 00:12:30,259 --> 00:12:31,999 of course I listened to myself. 197 00:12:32,260 --> 00:12:39,503 Like it just all felt so familiar and how we deserve that, that even the show itself 198 00:12:39,503 --> 00:12:44,825 is a sign of sisterhood, a sign of sisterhood, a sisterhood heals. 199 00:12:44,925 --> 00:12:50,948 I wonder if we could talk a little bit about some of the ways that we can build 200 00:12:50,948 --> 00:12:51,748 community. 201 00:12:51,748 --> 00:12:56,010 I thought that, I think that's something that a lot of people are very interested 202 00:12:56,010 --> 00:12:56,670 in. 203 00:12:57,107 --> 00:13:01,869 I consider Black Women's Stitch a community and trying to, you know, to 204 00:13:01,869 --> 00:13:07,151 cultivate this and to grow and to develop events and to do all these other elements. 205 00:13:07,151 --> 00:13:14,834 How do you, how do you advise folks who are looking to find community, to help, to 206 00:13:14,834 --> 00:13:18,776 build it, to help ask the questions, to find folks of common interest? 207 00:13:18,776 --> 00:13:22,777 How do you advise us to work on building community? 208 00:13:22,777 --> 00:13:26,318 Do we activate what we already have or what we think we have? 209 00:13:26,485 --> 00:13:27,933 How do we get started? 210 00:13:28,270 --> 00:13:29,011 Mm-hmm. 211 00:13:29,011 --> 00:13:32,236 Yeah, I mean, if there is something around you, then I definitely would encourage you 212 00:13:32,236 --> 00:13:35,621 to activate what's already there, because I think sometimes we make the mistake of 213 00:13:35,621 --> 00:13:39,787 like going out to look for something that is already kind of around. 214 00:13:39,787 --> 00:13:43,766 So I typically encourage people to look at the foreground of their lives. 215 00:13:43,766 --> 00:13:47,227 because there could be people already in the foreground that with a little bit of 216 00:13:47,227 --> 00:13:51,389 work, you could bring to the, I mean, look in the background to bring them to the 217 00:13:51,389 --> 00:13:52,430 foreground, right? 218 00:13:52,430 --> 00:13:56,712 So maybe there's a mom that you see in the carpool line, or there's somebody who sits 219 00:13:56,712 --> 00:13:58,273 next to you in yoga, right? 220 00:13:58,273 --> 00:14:02,115 Like, can you take the step to say like, hey, can we grab a smoothie after class? 221 00:14:02,115 --> 00:14:04,876 Or hey, do you wanna get breakfast after we drop the kids off, right? 222 00:14:04,876 --> 00:14:07,414 Like sometimes it requires us to take some steps. 223 00:14:07,414 --> 00:14:09,614 that we may feel a little uncomfortable about, right? 224 00:14:09,614 --> 00:14:11,475 Cause nobody wants to be rejected. 225 00:14:11,475 --> 00:14:14,317 But if you want to get something different, then sometimes you have to make 226 00:14:14,317 --> 00:14:16,017 different choices. 227 00:14:16,017 --> 00:14:17,598 So I definitely would encourage that. 228 00:14:17,598 --> 00:14:22,720 But I also think that social media is just a beautiful way to like tap into the 229 00:14:22,720 --> 00:14:24,161 things that you're interested in, right? 230 00:14:24,161 --> 00:14:25,590 So just like you have. 231 00:14:25,590 --> 00:14:26,550 Black women stitch. 232 00:14:26,550 --> 00:14:28,371 I mean, like I have therapy for black girls. 233 00:14:28,371 --> 00:14:32,493 Like there's so many communities and things that black women have created and 234 00:14:32,493 --> 00:14:37,336 kind of offered to us that anything that you are interested in, you are likely able 235 00:14:37,336 --> 00:14:41,738 to find a black woman who has started some kind of community or some kind of thing 236 00:14:41,738 --> 00:14:44,940 for other people who like those things to also be a part of. 237 00:14:44,940 --> 00:14:48,742 And so just spending a little bit of time searching on Instagram through hashtags 238 00:14:48,742 --> 00:14:52,324 and stuff like that, or Facebook groups can be a great way for you to kind of just 239 00:14:52,324 --> 00:14:55,645 meet other people that are interested in the kinds of things that you are. 240 00:14:57,907 --> 00:14:58,467 I love that. 241 00:14:58,467 --> 00:15:03,530 I think that is so rich and it also lets us to kind of look around, like you said, 242 00:15:03,530 --> 00:15:07,413 where we are, the things we're already doing, and look in a different direction. 243 00:15:07,413 --> 00:15:13,276 It doesn't require like a radical life revamp in order to do these things. 244 00:15:13,316 --> 00:15:18,660 I was thinking about, you do such a wonderful job of setting up scenarios that 245 00:15:18,660 --> 00:15:22,802 allow us to think about, huh, what would I do? 246 00:15:23,002 --> 00:15:23,447 And... 247 00:15:23,447 --> 00:15:26,968 This is a question that came up because as I was reading, there was a group of 248 00:15:26,968 --> 00:15:30,150 friends and they were very much team, no new friend. 249 00:15:30,550 --> 00:15:34,333 And then a new friend brought one of their friends around. 250 00:15:34,333 --> 00:15:38,015 And then like the woman was like, I don't know if I even want to go around with 251 00:15:38,015 --> 00:15:39,495 these people cause why she got to come out? 252 00:15:39,495 --> 00:15:41,677 I don't even know her like that and da da. 253 00:15:41,677 --> 00:15:46,199 And you did such a wonderful job explaining about how the friend who 254 00:15:46,199 --> 00:15:50,521 brought the new friend in could have, you know, maybe give some, give some people 255 00:15:50,521 --> 00:15:52,742 some heads up, just to say, hey. 256 00:15:52,751 --> 00:15:55,472 you know, I want to kind of bring her or I don't know. 257 00:15:55,472 --> 00:16:01,677 I just, I love how you don't shy away from these problems because it somehow, it 258 00:16:01,677 --> 00:16:05,879 feels like if you have problems in your relationships or in your friendships, your 259 00:16:05,879 --> 00:16:08,141 relationships are broken or wrong. 260 00:16:08,201 --> 00:16:15,726 What does it mean to help us see and identify these troubles and how to develop 261 00:16:15,726 --> 00:16:17,006 ways through them? 262 00:16:17,854 --> 00:16:22,475 Yeah, you know, Lisa, I think that we are far too quick to kind of like cut people 263 00:16:22,475 --> 00:16:26,696 off, or like you said, to think that if anything's trouble, that means this 264 00:16:26,696 --> 00:16:28,517 relationship is not worth it, right? 265 00:16:28,517 --> 00:16:30,757 But the truth of it is that we are all human. 266 00:16:30,757 --> 00:16:35,598 We're not robots as magical as black girls or we're not actually superhuman, right? 267 00:16:35,598 --> 00:16:39,760 And so that means we bring in all of our baggage, all of our stuff, all of our 268 00:16:39,760 --> 00:16:40,120 history. 269 00:16:40,120 --> 00:16:43,281 We're bringing all of that to our relationships with one another. 270 00:16:43,281 --> 00:16:46,606 And I think that we could do a better job of offering grace. 271 00:16:46,606 --> 00:16:50,208 to one another and not shying away from the difficult conversations. 272 00:16:50,208 --> 00:16:54,771 Like the first sign of trouble does not mean that the relationship needs to end. 273 00:16:54,771 --> 00:16:59,374 It may just be an opportunity for you to say like, ouch, this thing hurt and can we 274 00:16:59,374 --> 00:17:00,394 talk about it? 275 00:17:00,394 --> 00:17:04,297 Right, so that example of, you know, no new friends and like somebody works with 276 00:17:04,297 --> 00:17:06,538 somebody and they're like, oh, I think my girls would love you. 277 00:17:06,538 --> 00:17:08,840 I'll bring you to happy hour. 278 00:17:08,840 --> 00:17:10,941 Well, you gotta give people a heads up about that, right? 279 00:17:10,941 --> 00:17:11,766 Because... 280 00:17:11,766 --> 00:17:15,767 Who is this person and why is she here in our sacred space, right? 281 00:17:15,767 --> 00:17:20,250 You know, and so I don't think that it is the case of them not necessarily wanting 282 00:17:20,250 --> 00:17:23,931 to maybe get to know her, but it's the fact that you didn't really set her up for 283 00:17:23,931 --> 00:17:25,012 success, right? 284 00:17:25,012 --> 00:17:28,914 So could you say, hey, there's this cool girl that I work with, I'd love to be able 285 00:17:28,914 --> 00:17:32,055 to invite her in two weeks, I think you all would enjoy her. 286 00:17:32,055 --> 00:17:36,337 And then giving them the opportunities to say like, oh yeah, sure, bring her or. 287 00:17:36,846 --> 00:17:37,746 know about that, right? 288 00:17:37,746 --> 00:17:39,928 And then you'll all can have a conversation about it. 289 00:17:39,928 --> 00:17:43,590 But if you take away people's option to actually have a conversation about it, 290 00:17:43,590 --> 00:17:47,473 then you are making it less likely that they are going to welcome her kind of into 291 00:17:47,473 --> 00:17:48,353 the fold. 292 00:17:49,971 --> 00:17:52,632 And I think, of course, you are so right. 293 00:17:52,632 --> 00:17:56,174 I think this whole interview could just be like, yeah, you're right, mm-hmm, yes. 294 00:17:56,174 --> 00:17:58,616 And then just repeat that over and over. 295 00:17:58,996 --> 00:18:02,038 I don't have to say any other, no transition's necessary. 296 00:18:02,378 --> 00:18:03,619 The answer is always Dr. 297 00:18:03,619 --> 00:18:06,340 Joyce obviously right, gosh. 298 00:18:06,521 --> 00:18:11,684 But I think it's the discomfort and the idea that when you talk about sacred and 299 00:18:11,684 --> 00:18:16,346 thinking of sisterhood as sacred, there are some ways that... 300 00:18:16,563 --> 00:18:21,626 Some want a sacred experience that is also trouble free. 301 00:18:22,828 --> 00:18:28,312 And that sacred doesn't necessarily mean that, you know? 302 00:18:28,312 --> 00:18:32,075 And that when you have something that is so, well, maybe I can ask you to talk a 303 00:18:32,075 --> 00:18:33,276 little bit about that. 304 00:18:33,276 --> 00:18:41,483 How does the sanctity or the sacredness of a sisterly space or accommodate challenge 305 00:18:41,483 --> 00:18:44,845 or difficulty or expansion or contraction? 306 00:18:44,845 --> 00:18:46,447 Like, how does that? 307 00:18:46,447 --> 00:18:52,876 show up and maintain that sacredness, because it seems as though it's made 308 00:18:52,876 --> 00:18:55,841 sacred by the people who are participating. 309 00:18:55,841 --> 00:18:57,964 It doesn't just exist sacredness by itself. 310 00:18:57,964 --> 00:19:00,006 So I would love to hear more about that. 311 00:19:00,518 --> 00:19:05,043 Yeah, I honestly think that the ability to withstand some discomfort and challenge is 312 00:19:05,043 --> 00:19:08,567 what makes it sacred and what adds to the sanctity, right? 313 00:19:08,567 --> 00:19:13,312 So I think in sisterhood, it is one of those places where we can kind of practice 314 00:19:13,312 --> 00:19:16,896 being the more prickly, what I call prickly versions of ourselves, right? 315 00:19:16,896 --> 00:19:18,614 So those parts of ourselves that 316 00:19:18,614 --> 00:19:22,516 We don't even want to admit the parts that we know we can be a little clingy or we 317 00:19:22,516 --> 00:19:24,417 can be a little annoying or whatever. 318 00:19:24,417 --> 00:19:27,498 Like our relationships with other black women are often where we can kind of 319 00:19:27,498 --> 00:19:31,641 practice what that behavior feels like to other people and then to maybe get some 320 00:19:31,641 --> 00:19:35,103 feedback about, hey, that's kind of annoying when you do that, but that 321 00:19:35,103 --> 00:19:37,944 doesn't mean I don't love you still, right? 322 00:19:37,944 --> 00:19:42,607 And so I think that being able to kind of be all of who we are in relationships with 323 00:19:42,607 --> 00:19:46,749 other sisters is what really allows for that sacredness, right? 324 00:19:48,094 --> 00:19:54,138 I can be all of who I am and I may aggravate people, I may annoy people, they 325 00:19:54,138 --> 00:19:57,281 may even be mad at me, but that doesn't mean they don't love me. 326 00:19:57,281 --> 00:20:01,124 And so I think that it's a good sign when there's conflict, right? 327 00:20:01,124 --> 00:20:05,107 That means that people are invested enough to disagree with you, right? 328 00:20:05,107 --> 00:20:09,110 If it is only a situation where you're always agreeing and everything is hunky 329 00:20:09,110 --> 00:20:13,213 dory, so to speak, then is there really space for growth in that kind of a 330 00:20:13,213 --> 00:20:14,333 relationship? 331 00:20:16,923 --> 00:20:25,926 That's so powerful because I think wholeness is an essential part for me of 332 00:20:25,926 --> 00:20:27,126 liberation. 333 00:20:27,486 --> 00:20:34,989 It's too often that black women find our lives fragmented into either our roles, 334 00:20:34,989 --> 00:20:39,990 like a wife, mom, professional, whatever. 335 00:20:39,990 --> 00:20:41,170 But also... 336 00:20:41,359 --> 00:20:47,304 Just the things that impact the, patriarchy, for example, damages us as 337 00:20:47,304 --> 00:20:48,184 women. 338 00:20:48,424 --> 00:20:53,569 White supremacy damages us as black people. 339 00:20:53,569 --> 00:21:01,055 These things that show up, and it's really difficult to shoulder the burden of it, or 340 00:21:01,055 --> 00:21:04,558 to thrive through it if you aren't whole. 341 00:21:05,579 --> 00:21:10,262 And so the idea of us bringing our wholeness to each other. 342 00:21:10,967 --> 00:21:14,089 I think that's another one of the elements of the sacredness. 343 00:21:14,089 --> 00:21:22,194 And I do love how the book, Sisterhood Heals, advocates for us to be made whole 344 00:21:22,194 --> 00:21:23,935 through one another. 345 00:21:23,935 --> 00:21:28,738 And you have this beautiful, I think it's a line from Gwendolyn Brooks, and as she 346 00:21:28,738 --> 00:21:34,301 talks about we are each other's harvest, we are each other's business, we are each 347 00:21:34,301 --> 00:21:37,182 other's magnitude and bond. 348 00:21:37,607 --> 00:21:39,367 Y'all read y'all some Gwendolyn Brooks. 349 00:21:39,367 --> 00:21:40,807 She's one of my favorites. 350 00:21:40,807 --> 00:21:41,848 Read Maude Martha. 351 00:21:41,848 --> 00:21:42,848 I'll put a link in the chat. 352 00:21:42,848 --> 00:21:43,728 It's a novella. 353 00:21:43,728 --> 00:21:44,489 You gotta read it. 354 00:21:44,489 --> 00:21:45,849 It's like her only novella. 355 00:21:45,849 --> 00:21:46,749 She wanted to pull it. 356 00:21:46,749 --> 00:21:49,170 Anyway, back to track. 357 00:21:49,630 --> 00:21:55,472 Can you talk about, can you tell us a bit about what it means to be each other's 358 00:21:55,472 --> 00:21:56,692 magnitude? 359 00:21:56,692 --> 00:21:59,893 Like that, you know, we are each other's burden and magnitude. 360 00:21:59,893 --> 00:22:04,914 There was something about the gravity of magnitude as a word there that I think 361 00:22:04,914 --> 00:22:06,214 your book. 362 00:22:06,687 --> 00:22:08,409 really reflects. 363 00:22:08,409 --> 00:22:10,551 It reflects a magnitude. 364 00:22:10,631 --> 00:22:14,977 Can you share a little bit about what you think that quote means and why you used it 365 00:22:14,977 --> 00:22:16,858 to start that section of the work? 366 00:22:17,646 --> 00:22:17,906 Mm-hmm. 367 00:22:17,906 --> 00:22:19,567 Well, one, I just love that quote. 368 00:22:19,567 --> 00:22:21,708 That is also one of my favorites. 369 00:22:21,989 --> 00:22:23,450 And I think it's so true, right? 370 00:22:23,450 --> 00:22:28,213 Like, I think that there is no denying, like, the power that happens when Black 371 00:22:28,213 --> 00:22:29,894 women come together. 372 00:22:29,894 --> 00:22:34,958 And so this idea that we kind of need to operate in silos and like, OK, you do your 373 00:22:34,958 --> 00:22:36,939 stuff over there and I do my stuff over here. 374 00:22:36,939 --> 00:22:40,161 Like, we don't get anywhere further. 375 00:22:40,210 --> 00:22:44,312 if we are not actually invested in each other's health, each other's wellness, 376 00:22:44,312 --> 00:22:48,354 each other's lives, and we know that we go further together. 377 00:22:48,354 --> 00:22:52,317 And so this idea that we need to be separate and not actually kind of 378 00:22:52,317 --> 00:22:56,159 involving ourselves with each other, I think is not accurate. 379 00:22:56,279 --> 00:22:59,521 And we know that is not historically how we have survived, right? 380 00:22:59,521 --> 00:23:03,864 There is a reason there is such a rich history of black women's relationships 381 00:23:03,864 --> 00:23:05,004 with one another. 382 00:23:05,004 --> 00:23:07,138 And I don't think that if it's not broke, 383 00:23:07,138 --> 00:23:08,638 then we don't need to fix it, right? 384 00:23:08,638 --> 00:23:13,559 And so how can we continue with this rich history of really being able to show up 385 00:23:13,559 --> 00:23:19,781 with one another, show up for one another, especially again, in light of all these 386 00:23:19,781 --> 00:23:22,762 systems that are not actually working in our favors, right? 387 00:23:22,762 --> 00:23:28,664 Like there is just so much work left to be done, so much care that needs to be given. 388 00:23:28,664 --> 00:23:32,865 And I think that we are the only ones in a lot of ways who are equipped to be able to 389 00:23:32,865 --> 00:23:34,945 do that with and for one another. 390 00:23:36,951 --> 00:23:43,452 And I think in thinking about some of the responsibilities, I wonder if we could 391 00:23:43,452 --> 00:23:47,134 talk a little bit about some of those, the challenges. 392 00:23:47,134 --> 00:23:53,455 And I think part of it is you do such a beautiful job talking about our cultural 393 00:23:53,455 --> 00:24:01,498 conditioning, the ways that black women are, many of us have, I speak for myself, 394 00:24:01,718 --> 00:24:03,818 a certain type of loyalty. 395 00:24:04,323 --> 00:24:08,506 a certain type of belief that we don't want to do anything because of our 396 00:24:08,506 --> 00:24:10,808 corporate identity, the group identity. 397 00:24:10,808 --> 00:24:14,770 I think you used the word for it that I don't think I ever knew before that talk 398 00:24:14,770 --> 00:24:19,894 about how black women, or black people in general don't want to make the race look 399 00:24:19,894 --> 00:24:20,394 bad. 400 00:24:20,394 --> 00:24:24,197 Or, like if one person does something good, it's like, oh, good for that one 401 00:24:24,197 --> 00:24:24,578 person. 402 00:24:24,578 --> 00:24:27,840 But if one of us does something bad, it's all of us. 403 00:24:28,500 --> 00:24:31,602 And so I'm wondering like how... 404 00:24:32,251 --> 00:24:41,335 we get past that toward the healing to be able to say, as you said, this is 405 00:24:41,735 --> 00:24:46,078 difficult or this is painful, or when we feel disappointed, when we feel 406 00:24:46,078 --> 00:24:52,101 disappointed in our sisters, when we feel like you're not someone who's interested 407 00:24:52,101 --> 00:24:55,502 in community, you think of community as a commodity. 408 00:24:55,675 --> 00:25:00,577 And now, you had that wonderful story about that poor woman who had really loved 409 00:25:00,577 --> 00:25:04,660 this woman, this sister, and admired her work, and just had some questions about 410 00:25:04,660 --> 00:25:08,722 her 9999 program that she was selling. 411 00:25:08,722 --> 00:25:12,884 And the lady went off on her and then took her post as an example. 412 00:25:12,884 --> 00:25:16,387 And this why y'all ain't going to never make no money, because you don't want to 413 00:25:16,387 --> 00:25:17,287 pay nothing. 414 00:25:17,287 --> 00:25:22,630 You know, like, OK, girl, now I'm really glad I paused on that. 415 00:25:22,630 --> 00:25:22,773 But. 416 00:25:22,773 --> 00:25:23,413 ha ha. 417 00:25:23,443 --> 00:25:27,727 about how do we handle our disappointments or even being very frustrated at the 418 00:25:27,727 --> 00:25:35,476 honeypot lady when she changed the formula for the wash or whatever, these kinds of 419 00:25:35,476 --> 00:25:40,822 things that we invest so much and then sometimes we get disappointed. 420 00:25:40,822 --> 00:25:45,486 How do you advise us to kind of get to go through that or to manage that? 421 00:25:46,015 --> 00:25:51,299 Yeah, so I think we have to first be okay with honoring the disappointment, right? 422 00:25:51,299 --> 00:25:55,063 Because I think what often happens is that we feel these feelings that feel shameful, 423 00:25:55,063 --> 00:25:55,263 right? 424 00:25:55,263 --> 00:25:58,706 Like, oh, I shouldn't feel that way about another black woman, but it's okay. 425 00:25:58,706 --> 00:26:01,328 Like, feelings are just information, right? 426 00:26:01,328 --> 00:26:03,610 So it's okay to feel however you're feeling. 427 00:26:03,610 --> 00:26:07,333 What really is the issue, though, is then what do you do with those feelings, right? 428 00:26:07,333 --> 00:26:11,176 So we can allow for space to be disappointed and to check in with 429 00:26:11,176 --> 00:26:11,777 ourselves. 430 00:26:11,777 --> 00:26:12,746 I think about... 431 00:26:12,746 --> 00:26:15,147 what's actually coming up for me in this moment, right? 432 00:26:15,147 --> 00:26:19,930 Because while it looks like it is about the honeypot challenge or changing the 433 00:26:19,930 --> 00:26:24,372 formula, what is, if you dig a little deeper, we're not really still talking 434 00:26:24,372 --> 00:26:26,053 about a cleaner. 435 00:26:26,053 --> 00:26:31,317 Now we're talking about a sense of betrayal or a sense of being abandoned or 436 00:26:31,317 --> 00:26:32,437 left behind, right? 437 00:26:32,437 --> 00:26:33,137 Like... 438 00:26:33,390 --> 00:26:37,854 When we see these kinds of reactions that are disproportionate to the thing that has 439 00:26:37,854 --> 00:26:41,697 happened, usually there's an indication that something else is going on. 440 00:26:41,697 --> 00:26:46,321 And I think we can only get to that if we are quiet and still and actually sit down 441 00:26:46,321 --> 00:26:49,704 with ourselves to say, why am I disappointed here? 442 00:26:49,704 --> 00:26:51,366 And then what can I do about it, right? 443 00:26:51,366 --> 00:26:56,690 So I typically think that like social media posts and like going public with 444 00:26:56,690 --> 00:27:00,513 these kinds of things are typically not at least the first response. 445 00:27:00,594 --> 00:27:03,897 Because you probably have not sat down with yourself long enough to kind of work 446 00:27:03,897 --> 00:27:07,941 through whatever is happening But going to your trusted group chat or talking with a 447 00:27:07,941 --> 00:27:12,186 therapist about it about what is coming up for you can actually help you To kind of 448 00:27:12,186 --> 00:27:17,111 figure out okay What needs to be happening here and I think on the other side if you 449 00:27:17,111 --> 00:27:22,056 are somebody who has seen community as a commodity I think you also need to check 450 00:27:22,056 --> 00:27:24,182 yourself to kind of think about 451 00:27:24,182 --> 00:27:29,565 how you are weaponizing this thing that we know black women readily and loyally kind 452 00:27:29,565 --> 00:27:33,308 of give, right, like we will ride into the wheels fall off for a black woman's 453 00:27:33,308 --> 00:27:34,049 business. 454 00:27:34,049 --> 00:27:38,232 But does that mean then as the business owner, you get to discard this community 455 00:27:38,232 --> 00:27:40,413 when they are of no use to you anymore, right? 456 00:27:40,413 --> 00:27:45,517 Like I think as a black woman who is building a business that is like catering 457 00:27:45,517 --> 00:27:49,380 to black women, you do have a different code of ethics. 458 00:27:49,380 --> 00:27:51,446 I think that you just do because... 459 00:27:51,446 --> 00:27:56,388 You can't want to use community when it is in your advantage and then want to just, 460 00:27:56,388 --> 00:27:59,909 you know, kind of discard the community when they try to hold you accountable. 461 00:27:59,909 --> 00:28:01,490 It's like, you can't have both. 462 00:28:01,490 --> 00:28:04,171 So either make a product that everybody can use. 463 00:28:04,171 --> 00:28:09,013 And if the black girls get on, then fine, but don't use us as a way to kind of build 464 00:28:09,013 --> 00:28:12,194 your business and then say like, okay, I've made my millions now. 465 00:28:12,194 --> 00:28:13,494 Like I'm off to the next thing. 466 00:28:13,494 --> 00:28:18,016 Like I think you do have a different level of responsibility when you are building a 467 00:28:18,016 --> 00:28:21,477 business that caters specifically to black people. 468 00:28:23,683 --> 00:28:29,985 I could not agree more because as you said, that we have a certain type of, we 469 00:28:29,985 --> 00:28:33,866 have a really strong loyalty, especially to brand and products. 470 00:28:33,866 --> 00:28:38,087 I was talking to my sister about this and it's like, we use Tide because my mama 471 00:28:38,087 --> 00:28:39,427 used Tide. 472 00:28:39,427 --> 00:28:40,188 That's what we use. 473 00:28:40,188 --> 00:28:44,869 And then she, Lord, then she switched to Gain and it was a bit of a crisis. 474 00:28:44,869 --> 00:28:47,667 And I was like, well, I guess now we use Gain? 475 00:28:47,667 --> 00:28:48,953 use game now. 476 00:28:50,643 --> 00:28:55,446 Legit, we all, me and my sisters all use game because mama started using game. 477 00:28:55,446 --> 00:28:58,407 And clearly, I mean, who's not gonna do what she's doing? 478 00:28:58,407 --> 00:28:59,388 Like what? 479 00:28:59,408 --> 00:29:02,450 So it was, I think that you're so right about that. 480 00:29:02,450 --> 00:29:05,912 I wanted to pivot to talk a bit about creative liberation. 481 00:29:05,912 --> 00:29:09,794 And this brings us back to some of the sewing and crafts elements. 482 00:29:09,794 --> 00:29:12,316 And as quiet as it's kept, you did sew something. 483 00:29:12,316 --> 00:29:13,857 You have sewn. 484 00:29:13,877 --> 00:29:16,558 I'd love to know more if you have a sewing. 485 00:29:16,751 --> 00:29:18,071 I would love to know Dr. 486 00:29:18,071 --> 00:29:19,431 Joy's sewing story. 487 00:29:19,431 --> 00:29:23,792 This is, I'm sure what everybody's really excited for is yes, she wrote this really 488 00:29:23,792 --> 00:29:27,674 great book, it's best seller, it's amazing, it'll change your life, but do 489 00:29:27,674 --> 00:29:29,034 you sew though? 490 00:29:29,254 --> 00:29:30,674 That's what they're gonna be asking. 491 00:29:30,674 --> 00:29:33,475 So I did vet her beforehand, friends. 492 00:29:33,475 --> 00:29:36,216 She did make a skirt in middle school or a tote bag or something. 493 00:29:36,216 --> 00:29:38,136 So she's got some bona fides. 494 00:29:38,837 --> 00:29:43,318 But tell us about your sewing story such as it is. 495 00:29:43,318 --> 00:29:45,631 You're among friends, it's a safe space. 496 00:29:45,631 --> 00:29:49,053 We tapped into this when you were a guest on Therapy for Black Girls, but your story 497 00:29:49,053 --> 00:29:52,074 really reminded me of taking home economics in high school. 498 00:29:52,074 --> 00:29:56,257 So in ninth grade, we had home economics and one of the units was sewing. 499 00:29:56,257 --> 00:30:00,519 And so we made this pair of boxer shorts that I think probably fell apart, you 500 00:30:00,519 --> 00:30:02,480 know, within like three washes. 501 00:30:02,480 --> 00:30:05,438 But it was enough for me to be able to like... 502 00:30:05,438 --> 00:30:09,779 stitch enough so that I remember my dad had a hole in a t-shirt or whatever and I 503 00:30:09,779 --> 00:30:14,540 stitched it up with like green thread on a white t-shirt which was hilarious. 504 00:30:14,540 --> 00:30:19,542 But one of my fondest memories of sewing is not necessarily my own, it is my 505 00:30:19,542 --> 00:30:20,862 grandmother's. 506 00:30:21,242 --> 00:30:26,123 So I remember, so I'm from Louisiana, I talk about that all throughout the book, 507 00:30:26,223 --> 00:30:30,885 and my the men in my family are historically welders. 508 00:30:30,905 --> 00:30:33,905 And so you know I remember many nights 509 00:30:33,918 --> 00:30:40,020 Yeah, my grandmother like up, patching up my uncle's jeans, because like, you know, 510 00:30:40,020 --> 00:30:42,681 they had been on the ship or whatever and had gotten a hole in the jeans. 511 00:30:42,681 --> 00:30:46,663 And so she would always be doing all this stitching and patching up jeans. 512 00:30:46,663 --> 00:30:50,145 And so I do come from a family of people who have done some sewing. 513 00:30:50,145 --> 00:30:56,187 And I remember my mom made me my favorite Halloween costume, maybe in like third or 514 00:30:56,187 --> 00:31:01,829 fourth grade, it was a Raggedy Ann costume that I loved so, so much. 515 00:31:02,218 --> 00:31:07,426 Yeah, so I come from a family of so is, but I have not necessarily like gotten 516 00:31:07,426 --> 00:31:11,432 back into that, but I do enough to be able to like put a button back on my kids 517 00:31:11,432 --> 00:31:14,035 jacket or, you know, something like that. 518 00:31:15,291 --> 00:31:15,731 That's great. 519 00:31:15,731 --> 00:31:16,912 Because I hate putting buttons. 520 00:31:16,912 --> 00:31:18,874 My kids be buttonless because I hate that. 521 00:31:18,874 --> 00:31:20,815 I'm like, oh, really? 522 00:31:20,815 --> 00:31:22,877 It's so boring. 523 00:31:23,998 --> 00:31:24,999 Mm hmm. 524 00:31:24,999 --> 00:31:26,921 I too bad you don't live closer friend. 525 00:31:26,921 --> 00:31:27,881 Too bad. 526 00:31:27,881 --> 00:31:28,522 I'm like, you know what? 527 00:31:28,522 --> 00:31:31,504 Right over the doctor, Joy, she loved putting buttons on stuff. 528 00:31:33,226 --> 00:31:33,987 Absolutely. 529 00:31:33,987 --> 00:31:34,347 Yes. 530 00:31:34,347 --> 00:31:36,849 My poor spouse, they got to go out and get there. 531 00:31:36,849 --> 00:31:38,511 I'm like, oh, these pants need to be hemmed. 532 00:31:38,511 --> 00:31:39,311 I'm like, you know what? 533 00:31:39,311 --> 00:31:40,212 Cleaners is only $12. 534 00:31:40,212 --> 00:31:41,333 You got $12. 535 00:31:41,333 --> 00:31:42,994 I will absolutely. 536 00:31:43,119 --> 00:31:44,259 And they'll do it for you. 537 00:31:44,259 --> 00:31:46,160 I certainly don't want to. 538 00:31:47,040 --> 00:31:53,283 So, but I, one of the things I love about it is that the, the act of sewing is one 539 00:31:53,283 --> 00:31:58,505 thing that I'm arguing is as Audrey Lord talks about in her, you've mentioned this 540 00:31:58,505 --> 00:32:02,246 as well, that the master's tools will never dismantle the master's house. 541 00:32:02,727 --> 00:32:07,969 And so I've developed this idea that sewing is an example of something that is 542 00:32:07,969 --> 00:32:10,830 antithetical to master's tools. 543 00:32:10,830 --> 00:32:12,667 Anything can be co-opted. 544 00:32:12,667 --> 00:32:18,850 but the needle and thread has been consigned to a realm of service that the 545 00:32:18,850 --> 00:32:21,791 master, quote unquote, doesn't deploy. 546 00:32:21,992 --> 00:32:25,454 He might control it, but doesn't do it themselves. 547 00:32:25,454 --> 00:32:33,158 And so it feels like a liberatory act to just, to put, almost like putting pen to 548 00:32:33,158 --> 00:32:36,860 paper, you know, to kind of to write something, to express something. 549 00:32:36,860 --> 00:32:41,147 I feel that way about needle and thread and fabric and, you know, 550 00:32:41,147 --> 00:32:46,091 creating something that was not there before, did not exist before I made it, 551 00:32:46,091 --> 00:32:46,911 you know? 552 00:32:46,911 --> 00:32:52,716 And so there's something I think inherently healing in some ways about 553 00:32:52,716 --> 00:32:53,036 sewing. 554 00:32:53,036 --> 00:32:55,818 And you see this a lot in the sewing community. 555 00:32:55,818 --> 00:33:00,082 There are t-shirts and slogans and sewing is my therapy. 556 00:33:00,082 --> 00:33:03,064 And I'm like, whoa, that is so inappropriate. 557 00:33:03,765 --> 00:33:05,246 Let us, let's say. 558 00:33:06,299 --> 00:33:07,259 But really, Dr. 559 00:33:07,259 --> 00:33:10,801 Joy, and I guess one of the things I might ask is about when you talk about therapy 560 00:33:10,801 --> 00:33:14,623 for black girls, it really puts therapy right up front, you know? 561 00:33:14,623 --> 00:33:19,406 And there has been in the past a historic reluctance among some black communities, 562 00:33:19,406 --> 00:33:22,748 I'm not going to say all black, but some black communities, especially some 563 00:33:22,748 --> 00:33:29,512 religious ones who have been kind of, no, therapy is not something we need or would 564 00:33:29,512 --> 00:33:30,672 do or whatever. 565 00:33:30,672 --> 00:33:34,894 And you've done a powerful job dismantling that myth. 566 00:33:35,311 --> 00:33:36,751 with this project. 567 00:33:36,811 --> 00:33:42,734 Can you talk a bit about the ways that we might use creative expression, use art, 568 00:33:42,775 --> 00:33:48,158 use drawing, use piano, use music, use the things that we do that might not bring us 569 00:33:48,158 --> 00:33:51,059 money, but they bring us pleasure. 570 00:33:51,239 --> 00:33:55,962 How does that serve a therapeutic function without being like, this is the only thing 571 00:33:55,962 --> 00:33:57,602 I'm going to do to heal my mental health? 572 00:33:58,026 --> 00:33:59,046 Right, right. 573 00:33:59,046 --> 00:34:01,467 Yeah, I love those t-shirts and slogans, right? 574 00:34:01,467 --> 00:34:05,249 And I often get a good laugh at those things too, because they are therapeutic, 575 00:34:05,249 --> 00:34:05,429 right? 576 00:34:05,429 --> 00:34:08,530 Like sewing can be therapeutic, running can be therapeutic, but it is not 577 00:34:08,530 --> 00:34:10,832 necessarily the same thing as therapy, right? 578 00:34:10,832 --> 00:34:14,613 It's not replacing a relationship with a licensed mental health professional where 579 00:34:14,613 --> 00:34:17,435 you are talking about things, unpacking all of those things. 580 00:34:17,435 --> 00:34:19,035 But it is still important. 581 00:34:19,035 --> 00:34:23,397 And to your earlier point, Lisa, you know, there has been a reluctance to embrace, 582 00:34:23,678 --> 00:34:25,338 like mental health and therapy. 583 00:34:25,338 --> 00:34:26,579 And rightfully so, right? 584 00:34:26,579 --> 00:34:28,339 Like we cannot deny. 585 00:34:28,800 --> 00:34:34,005 the white supremacy and like the historical functions of our field. 586 00:34:34,005 --> 00:34:37,908 But I think what has been so important to me and really critical for me to do with 587 00:34:37,908 --> 00:34:42,952 Therapy for Black Girls is to talk about like how we have come from that history, 588 00:34:42,952 --> 00:34:44,834 but this is still for us, right? 589 00:34:44,834 --> 00:34:48,737 Because we know that even though we weren't calling people therapists in our 590 00:34:48,737 --> 00:34:53,061 ancestral communities, we know that there have always been healers in our community, 591 00:34:53,061 --> 00:34:53,261 right? 592 00:34:53,261 --> 00:34:53,954 And so. 593 00:34:53,954 --> 00:34:58,317 therapy in the way that we do it now, is just, I think, a continuation of the 594 00:34:58,317 --> 00:35:00,139 things that our ancestors started. 595 00:35:00,139 --> 00:35:04,722 So even though it did not start from us, we know that healing has always been our 596 00:35:04,722 --> 00:35:08,125 birthright and that healers have always been in our communities. 597 00:35:08,125 --> 00:35:12,048 And so therapy for black girls really has been, I think, a really cool way to kind 598 00:35:12,048 --> 00:35:14,991 of talk about, okay, there is mental illness, right? 599 00:35:14,991 --> 00:35:18,234 Like, let's talk about the signs of depression, the signs of anxiety, you 600 00:35:18,234 --> 00:35:22,237 know, what it's like to take medication, but let's also talk about all these other 601 00:35:22,237 --> 00:35:23,158 things. 602 00:35:23,158 --> 00:35:25,459 that we can do to actually take care of our mental health. 603 00:35:25,459 --> 00:35:29,303 Because I think for a long time, people have only thought about mental health as 604 00:35:29,303 --> 00:35:34,187 like the avoidance of illness, as opposed to let's pay attention to our sleep 605 00:35:34,187 --> 00:35:37,710 hygiene, right, and like how does sleep impact our mental health? 606 00:35:37,710 --> 00:35:42,014 Let's talk about like movement and how, you know, our endorphins, you know, get 607 00:35:42,014 --> 00:35:45,236 through the roof when we go for a nice long walk, or what does it mean to be in 608 00:35:45,236 --> 00:35:49,540 community and to have close friendship relationships and how that's also a really 609 00:35:49,540 --> 00:35:51,586 good thing to buffer us from stress. 610 00:35:51,586 --> 00:35:54,230 So there are all these different things that I think that are really, really 611 00:35:54,230 --> 00:35:55,993 critical to our mental health. 612 00:35:55,993 --> 00:35:59,158 And that's really what therapy for black girls has been about is to be able to kind 613 00:35:59,158 --> 00:36:03,244 of explore all of those things that we don't necessarily think about when we 614 00:36:03,244 --> 00:36:04,646 think about mental health. 615 00:36:06,211 --> 00:36:11,733 And I really appreciate the way that you think about health and wellness, that it 616 00:36:11,733 --> 00:36:15,314 doesn't, you know, it doesn't have to be, we don't have to think about it in an 617 00:36:15,314 --> 00:36:19,556 extreme, like, Oh, someone's had a break or you know, something like that, that 618 00:36:19,556 --> 00:36:25,118 it's just, it can, that we deserve that healing is all wholeness and wellness. 619 00:36:25,118 --> 00:36:29,340 All of these things are things that are, that belong to us by right. 620 00:36:29,440 --> 00:36:34,422 Another thing that's so wonderful about the book in this context is you are 621 00:36:34,422 --> 00:36:35,802 creating. 622 00:36:36,011 --> 00:36:43,375 a practice in the book itself that will allow, I think, future clinicians as well 623 00:36:43,375 --> 00:36:47,257 as just readers like myself, it is equipping them as well. 624 00:36:47,257 --> 00:36:53,561 You have built by the ways that you cite other black women throughout this book, 625 00:36:53,561 --> 00:37:01,245 you dropping Patricia Hill Collins and Evelyn Higginbotham and all of these 626 00:37:01,245 --> 00:37:04,146 historians, and you are creating 627 00:37:04,427 --> 00:37:10,329 And as we have in ourselves, you are creating that which should have been there 628 00:37:10,329 --> 00:37:14,891 for us, but never was because we weren't seen. 629 00:37:15,411 --> 00:37:21,473 And yet again, you are proving, just like you do with when you look at insecure, you 630 00:37:21,473 --> 00:37:26,796 are proving that we have already been there in these fields of health and 631 00:37:26,796 --> 00:37:29,016 wellness and psychology. 632 00:37:29,016 --> 00:37:34,358 And we have contributions that are utterly unique and necessary. 633 00:37:34,715 --> 00:37:40,319 that allow us to, that allow us to build what we need. 634 00:37:40,519 --> 00:37:47,104 And you have done that so, just so beautifully throughout this book. 635 00:37:47,305 --> 00:37:50,327 Were there any parts of it, of the writing process? 636 00:37:50,327 --> 00:37:53,750 I'd love to hear more about that as someone who is finished starting a book 637 00:37:53,750 --> 00:37:54,650 right now. 638 00:37:55,712 --> 00:38:00,415 That, what are some of the parts that were challenging for you? 639 00:38:00,415 --> 00:38:04,571 Did you ever get to, so you seem to have had an already really robust outline. 640 00:38:04,571 --> 00:38:07,592 because you had this event that was going to happen. 641 00:38:07,592 --> 00:38:12,033 So you were able to kind of have that be like a scaffold and build things around 642 00:38:12,033 --> 00:38:12,614 it. 643 00:38:12,614 --> 00:38:16,655 But when it came down to put pen to paper or to sit in front of the laptop or 644 00:38:16,655 --> 00:38:22,238 however you write, was there any challenges or things that came easier, 645 00:38:22,238 --> 00:38:24,898 things that you kind of had to sit with a little longer? 646 00:38:25,518 --> 00:38:31,520 Hmm, you know, honestly Lisa, the whole process was really difficult just because 647 00:38:31,520 --> 00:38:32,981 it was a new thing, right? 648 00:38:32,981 --> 00:38:37,983 Like I kept trying to equate it to writing my dissertation, which was the only 649 00:38:37,983 --> 00:38:42,124 framework I had for like writing something of this magnitude. 650 00:38:42,124 --> 00:38:45,726 And it clearly is very different from a dissertation because your dissertation 651 00:38:45,726 --> 00:38:49,487 isn't necessarily meant to be like entertaining and like enjoyable. 652 00:38:49,487 --> 00:38:51,568 It's like, it's research, right? 653 00:38:51,768 --> 00:38:52,808 Yeah. 654 00:38:53,469 --> 00:38:53,891 And so. 655 00:38:53,891 --> 00:38:54,473 that. 656 00:38:54,473 --> 00:38:54,982 Yeah. 657 00:38:54,982 --> 00:38:58,484 Exactly, the people on your committee and maybe your mom and them like, you know, a 658 00:38:58,484 --> 00:38:59,904 grand total of seven. 659 00:39:01,205 --> 00:39:06,128 Yeah. 660 00:39:06,128 --> 00:39:10,651 Yeah, so it was really a difficult process because I was trying to do something very 661 00:39:10,651 --> 00:39:11,511 new. 662 00:39:11,611 --> 00:39:15,426 Um, and I also am somebody who like 663 00:39:15,426 --> 00:39:18,688 I'm not super flowery in my language. 664 00:39:18,688 --> 00:39:22,352 And I think a lot of that is like being trained as a psychologist to like write a 665 00:39:22,352 --> 00:39:24,754 certain way and like, okay, these are the facts. 666 00:39:24,754 --> 00:39:27,757 Like you don't need to add too much like interpretation. 667 00:39:27,757 --> 00:39:31,280 And so it was really hard for me to kind of make a book that like, I feel like 668 00:39:31,280 --> 00:39:35,524 people would really get in like the storytelling and you know, that kind of 669 00:39:35,524 --> 00:39:35,724 thing. 670 00:39:35,724 --> 00:39:39,547 So I actually worked with a writer, Tracy Louis Giggott, Tracy Michelle Louis 671 00:39:39,547 --> 00:39:42,190 Giggott, who really helped me to kind of like. 672 00:39:42,190 --> 00:39:45,030 pull the story pieces out of it, right? 673 00:39:45,150 --> 00:39:48,451 To make it something that people would actually enjoy reading. 674 00:39:48,791 --> 00:39:52,612 So I think that the storytelling piece was a little more difficult for me. 675 00:39:52,612 --> 00:39:58,294 And I also was really worried Lisa as a podcaster, if my voice would translate on 676 00:39:58,294 --> 00:39:59,454 the page. 677 00:39:59,454 --> 00:40:03,395 So, you know, I think that people have an expectation of like who Dr. 678 00:40:03,395 --> 00:40:07,637 Joy is when they hear me on the mic, or like if I'm doing a speaking engagement, 679 00:40:07,637 --> 00:40:07,817 right? 680 00:40:07,817 --> 00:40:10,677 Like I think that there is a warmth that I convey. 681 00:40:10,698 --> 00:40:14,840 And I was really worried that would not translate on the page. 682 00:40:14,840 --> 00:40:18,702 And so I have been, it is always such a pleasure to get feedback from readers that 683 00:40:18,702 --> 00:40:21,043 they do feel like it translated. 684 00:40:21,043 --> 00:40:25,845 Cause that probably was my biggest worry was that like, I wouldn't get the tone 685 00:40:25,845 --> 00:40:26,085 right. 686 00:40:26,085 --> 00:40:29,327 And like it would feel too scholarly or people would be like, oh, this doesn't 687 00:40:29,327 --> 00:40:29,967 sound like Dr. 688 00:40:29,967 --> 00:40:30,808 Joy. 689 00:40:31,068 --> 00:40:34,469 So I'm really glad to hear that it did translate in that way. 690 00:40:35,999 --> 00:40:38,020 It absolutely did. 691 00:40:38,020 --> 00:40:42,402 And there's also a built in cheat code, which is listening to the audio version. 692 00:40:42,402 --> 00:40:46,725 Because when I tell, when I tell y'all, I believe that Dr. 693 00:40:46,725 --> 00:40:51,648 Joy Harden Bradford sat down one day and read me this book over the course of two 694 00:40:51,648 --> 00:40:56,571 months, because it's, it's really, it's cause you know, we have you, you know, 695 00:40:56,571 --> 00:41:02,414 you're in our ear on the podcast, you know, but like to have these, um, to have 696 00:41:02,414 --> 00:41:03,463 you like, 697 00:41:03,463 --> 00:41:07,944 give this long, this, it's a rather, I think about seven hours worth, I think, 698 00:41:07,944 --> 00:41:09,544 seven hours long. 699 00:41:09,684 --> 00:41:14,325 It really, maybe eight, it's a really, it's such a gift. 700 00:41:14,345 --> 00:41:19,087 And I, there's a, there's a way in Audible, which is what I used to do audio 701 00:41:19,087 --> 00:41:23,468 books, that you can make tabs, you can like make clips, you can tab, tap the 702 00:41:23,468 --> 00:41:28,749 thing and like add a note or tap the clip and then you can go back and listen to it. 703 00:41:28,749 --> 00:41:33,264 I got about like 40 clips of like things that I wanna go back and, I'm like, 704 00:41:33,264 --> 00:41:34,506 feature in Audible. 705 00:41:34,506 --> 00:41:37,792 Ha ha ha. 706 00:41:37,792 --> 00:41:38,324 Okay. 707 00:41:38,324 --> 00:41:41,609 it's, it's like, I'm, I'm absolutely going to show you cause I'm a fan girl. 708 00:41:41,609 --> 00:41:45,676 Cause like it was, I was looking cause you can go back and look at all your bookmarks 709 00:41:45,676 --> 00:41:50,502 and you can manage your clips and it has these little, I've got like, 710 00:41:52,543 --> 00:41:55,043 all of these things that it's like, oh yeah, let me, that's a good one. 711 00:41:55,043 --> 00:41:55,964 I might ask about that. 712 00:41:55,964 --> 00:41:57,664 Like I don't think I ask about any of them. 713 00:41:57,664 --> 00:41:59,565 I'm going to have to call you on the phone. 714 00:41:59,565 --> 00:42:06,587 But, um, the, the thing I was, I was excited about was indeed like, it really 715 00:42:06,587 --> 00:42:12,829 is feeling like we have you with us, you know, and the warmth, the joy, the, the 716 00:42:12,829 --> 00:42:17,050 happiness in your voice, all of that translated, I think incredibly well to the 717 00:42:17,050 --> 00:42:19,495 page and the, the 718 00:42:19,495 --> 00:42:23,520 The audio is just such a, another version, another version of that. 719 00:42:23,520 --> 00:42:27,505 Did you, was the recording process weird to like, or was it pretty much just like 720 00:42:27,505 --> 00:42:28,702 you do in the podcast? 721 00:42:28,702 --> 00:42:33,003 You know, at least I expected it to be like, oh, I do this all the time, but it 722 00:42:33,003 --> 00:42:34,304 was very different, right? 723 00:42:34,304 --> 00:42:38,946 Because I'm in a studio by myself, there's an engineer on the other side of the wall, 724 00:42:38,946 --> 00:42:43,768 and then there's a producer in your ear, and I think he was in like New York or 725 00:42:43,768 --> 00:42:44,969 somewhere, right? 726 00:42:44,969 --> 00:42:48,290 And so he's saying like, oh, go back and do this, or let's give that another try, 727 00:42:48,290 --> 00:42:48,490 right? 728 00:42:48,490 --> 00:42:51,791 And so usually, of course, when I'm doing the podcast, like there's nobody, I mean, 729 00:42:51,791 --> 00:42:54,953 maybe my producers will say like, okay, let's go ask this question, but they're 730 00:42:54,953 --> 00:42:56,653 not usually in my ear. 731 00:42:57,010 --> 00:43:00,875 And so that was a much more difficult process than I anticipated, especially 732 00:43:00,875 --> 00:43:03,657 since I talk, you know, kind of for a living at this point. 733 00:43:04,567 --> 00:43:05,087 Yeah. 734 00:43:05,087 --> 00:43:06,728 Oh, that's, that's amazing. 735 00:43:07,229 --> 00:43:12,034 Let me ask you throughout writing the book, what did you learn? 736 00:43:12,034 --> 00:43:17,159 Do you have some key learnings that you've gotten either from finishing the book, 737 00:43:17,159 --> 00:43:21,603 turning it in saying, okay, I released this now I've done it, or key learnings 738 00:43:21,603 --> 00:43:27,128 from getting feedback from readers and listeners that has given you, um, that's 739 00:43:27,128 --> 00:43:29,650 giving you something that you really cherish. 740 00:43:30,050 --> 00:43:31,090 Hmm. 741 00:43:31,090 --> 00:43:34,811 I will say the key feedback or the key piece of, you know, learning that I've 742 00:43:34,811 --> 00:43:38,172 gotten from finishing the book was that I can actually do hard things. 743 00:43:38,172 --> 00:43:43,153 You know, because I definitely had some imposter syndrome stuff kicking in there. 744 00:43:43,153 --> 00:43:48,115 And it's like, you know, there was so many weeks of my therapy sessions dedicated to 745 00:43:48,115 --> 00:43:51,016 like book writing stuff like I feel like until I finished. 746 00:43:51,016 --> 00:43:55,557 And then when it was time to market, it was like a whole new slate of like new 747 00:43:55,557 --> 00:43:57,878 problems to talk about with my therapist. 748 00:43:57,878 --> 00:44:02,880 But I didn't expect so much of my mental health necessarily to be wrapped up in the 749 00:44:02,880 --> 00:44:07,162 writing process, but I definitely got in my head about how are people gonna receive 750 00:44:07,162 --> 00:44:09,683 it, and is it gonna translate? 751 00:44:09,784 --> 00:44:13,586 So I think the key piece that I take with me is that I can do hard things and then 752 00:44:13,586 --> 00:44:16,727 let it go and kinda let it be what it is. 753 00:44:17,207 --> 00:44:21,669 I think from the readers, what I have learned is that people are expecting more. 754 00:44:21,694 --> 00:44:21,974 Right? 755 00:44:21,974 --> 00:44:24,979 Like people are like, okay, well, this was great, but when is the next one? 756 00:44:24,979 --> 00:44:26,321 Like, what is, what's happening? 757 00:44:26,321 --> 00:44:29,426 I'm like, oh my God, y'all, I don't know. 758 00:44:29,426 --> 00:44:31,609 I don't know if I got it in me again. 759 00:44:32,421 --> 00:44:36,083 now I got four more sessions, lining up with therapists, something to talk about. 760 00:44:36,083 --> 00:44:40,025 Now I got to talk about the fear of failure is one thing, man, fear of success 761 00:44:40,025 --> 00:44:41,485 is quite something else. 762 00:44:41,485 --> 00:44:42,446 Oh my goodness. 763 00:44:42,446 --> 00:44:44,106 That's what we're dealing with now. 764 00:44:46,908 --> 00:44:52,110 I really, I feel like the paint is not yet dry on this book. 765 00:44:52,110 --> 00:44:52,624 It's like. 766 00:44:52,624 --> 00:44:53,325 Hehehehe 767 00:44:53,791 --> 00:44:56,974 It's like, can I, can I please have just a teeny bit more time to rest, please? 768 00:44:56,974 --> 00:44:57,394 Please? 769 00:44:57,394 --> 00:45:00,897 Can I get like three more months, just like a symbolic, just symbolically, let's 770 00:45:00,897 --> 00:45:03,800 have nine months go by before we start thinking about anything else. 771 00:45:03,800 --> 00:45:05,101 Just symbolically. 772 00:45:06,603 --> 00:45:11,908 I was thinking, it's also really gratifying to kind of know or warming to 773 00:45:11,908 --> 00:45:17,874 know and daring to know that of course, I mean, I'm like sitting here like, Jordan, 774 00:45:17,874 --> 00:45:18,867 do you know who you are? 775 00:45:18,867 --> 00:45:19,307 what you mean? 776 00:45:19,307 --> 00:45:20,927 Of course I can do hard things. 777 00:45:20,927 --> 00:45:24,749 I'm like, you did build, you did write a, you did, you know, go to graduate school 778 00:45:24,749 --> 00:45:29,271 and, you know, wrote a dissertation and had a practice and then built something 779 00:45:29,271 --> 00:45:30,892 that's incredibly unique. 780 00:45:30,892 --> 00:45:36,494 That is like, it's inevitable, you know, it's completely new, it's novel. 781 00:45:36,615 --> 00:45:40,676 And I say inevitable because it's unique, but I think you also want people to be 782 00:45:40,676 --> 00:45:42,057 able to build these kinds of things. 783 00:45:42,057 --> 00:45:45,658 I remember one of your episodes where a person was working on 784 00:45:45,707 --> 00:45:50,309 um, yoga and did a lot of like yoga events and they were going to, and it just felt 785 00:45:50,309 --> 00:45:56,271 like you are encouraging us to do hard things all the time, whether that's called 786 00:45:56,271 --> 00:46:01,013 that friend or maybe don't call that friend or, you know, you are always 787 00:46:01,013 --> 00:46:03,294 encouraging us to do hard things. 788 00:46:03,294 --> 00:46:09,457 So the idea that you are somehow like, Hmm, this is hard. 789 00:46:09,457 --> 00:46:13,858 It just, it, it just makes me, it's, for me, that's like a big takeaway, like, 790 00:46:14,279 --> 00:46:14,399 Dr. 791 00:46:14,399 --> 00:46:15,603 Joy be struggling with stuff? 792 00:46:15,603 --> 00:46:16,344 What? 793 00:46:16,345 --> 00:46:17,969 What you talk, what you say now? 794 00:46:18,030 --> 00:46:18,691 What? 795 00:46:21,950 --> 00:46:22,470 Absolutely. 796 00:46:22,470 --> 00:46:26,533 But you know, Lisa, I think the difference to me here was that therapy for black 797 00:46:26,533 --> 00:46:29,415 girls kind of was created by accident. 798 00:46:29,415 --> 00:46:34,458 Like I didn't sit down and say, like, I want a business dedicated to like black 799 00:46:34,458 --> 00:46:35,399 women's mental health. 800 00:46:35,399 --> 00:46:39,221 Like I was kind of already doing that work and it kind of grew as an extension of 801 00:46:39,221 --> 00:46:39,882 that. 802 00:46:39,882 --> 00:46:44,007 But I think the book was something that was like, okay, I intentionally pitched 803 00:46:44,007 --> 00:46:44,808 this book. 804 00:46:44,808 --> 00:46:46,991 I said, I'm going to do this thing. 805 00:46:46,991 --> 00:46:50,675 And so it felt like one of the first things in a very long time that I said 806 00:46:50,675 --> 00:46:53,579 like, okay, I'm going to do this thing and then you gotta finish it. 807 00:46:53,579 --> 00:46:55,921 So it felt like a very different process to me. 808 00:46:57,475 --> 00:46:58,875 Yeah, I can understand that. 809 00:46:58,875 --> 00:46:59,736 I can understand that. 810 00:46:59,736 --> 00:47:04,739 I think that looking at your story from a distance and seeing therapy for black 811 00:47:04,739 --> 00:47:11,283 girls as, you know, a known entity, um, as something that is already doing thriving 812 00:47:11,283 --> 00:47:15,306 and healing work in the community, it's kind of, it is also, you get a little 813 00:47:15,306 --> 00:47:15,786 spoiled. 814 00:47:15,786 --> 00:47:18,287 You feel like, Oh, that's always been here. 815 00:47:18,287 --> 00:47:22,050 You know, it's like, it's, well, it's what it means to like, what you've done is 816 00:47:22,050 --> 00:47:23,530 build an institution. 817 00:47:23,863 --> 00:47:29,046 You've you've you really, I think you have, and it really is so robust and 818 00:47:29,046 --> 00:47:30,007 necessary. 819 00:47:30,007 --> 00:47:35,010 And when, like in the chapter, you talk about sisterhood over systems. 820 00:47:35,010 --> 00:47:44,517 You know, and you have created in therapy for black girls, the podcast, the book, 821 00:47:44,517 --> 00:47:50,521 the sister circle community, the, you know, all of these things that you've 822 00:47:50,521 --> 00:47:52,275 already given us such. 823 00:47:52,275 --> 00:47:58,320 powerful gifts and gifts that continue to equip us, you know, and so it really 824 00:47:58,320 --> 00:48:08,808 becomes I don't know it's a rich opportunity and a rare gift to talk with 825 00:48:08,808 --> 00:48:17,596 you about your process and that processes are currently always ongoing and that we 826 00:48:17,596 --> 00:48:19,818 too are in the middle of a process. 827 00:48:19,818 --> 00:48:20,778 We too. 828 00:48:21,031 --> 00:48:25,853 want something and to get there will be a journey and there will be steps to be 829 00:48:25,853 --> 00:48:26,753 taken. 830 00:48:27,053 --> 00:48:31,876 Like that just, I don't know, I just feel like that's something that we, you know, 831 00:48:31,876 --> 00:48:35,778 we see the bit we see, I think we sometimes get too accustomed to a before 832 00:48:35,778 --> 00:48:37,358 and after picture. 833 00:48:37,499 --> 00:48:40,020 You know, it's just the before. 834 00:48:40,020 --> 00:48:46,043 And then in about two seconds, up comes the after, you know, or before and now. 835 00:48:46,043 --> 00:48:50,224 but all that ugly middle and the uncertainty and the, oh my gosh, what was 836 00:48:50,224 --> 00:48:51,464 I thinking? 837 00:48:51,464 --> 00:48:53,244 All that's in the middle, you know? 838 00:48:53,244 --> 00:48:58,586 And so I just love how in talking about your process a bit, you've given us the 839 00:48:58,586 --> 00:49:01,927 chance to think about our own processes. 840 00:49:01,927 --> 00:49:07,648 You close the book with sister acts, with resources for ways we can encourage our 841 00:49:07,648 --> 00:49:08,569 sisters. 842 00:49:08,569 --> 00:49:11,870 There are some really wonderful tips in there. 843 00:49:11,870 --> 00:49:15,523 Can you talk about why you thought it was important to end the book? 844 00:49:15,523 --> 00:49:22,689 with a list of actions for different things, for different, like this is 845 00:49:22,689 --> 00:49:28,073 connect with, hype them up, connect with the janitorial and the custodial staff at 846 00:49:28,073 --> 00:49:28,674 work. 847 00:49:28,674 --> 00:49:33,617 For me, something I learned in grad school is be nice to secretaries. 848 00:49:33,818 --> 00:49:39,363 These things, cash up your girl, send her a playlist, all these different things. 849 00:49:39,363 --> 00:49:43,326 Why did you think it was important that when we got to the end of this wonderful 850 00:49:43,326 --> 00:49:44,027 journey, 851 00:49:44,027 --> 00:49:47,698 that we were left with some kind of action items. 852 00:49:48,326 --> 00:49:48,646 Mm-hmm. 853 00:49:48,646 --> 00:49:51,629 Yeah, because I didn't want it to be a book that you just read and thought like, 854 00:49:51,629 --> 00:49:52,409 oh, that was cute. 855 00:49:52,409 --> 00:49:54,111 And then you just put it back on your shelf, right? 856 00:49:54,111 --> 00:49:57,934 Like I wanted it to be something that you then were moved to act. 857 00:49:57,934 --> 00:49:58,274 Right. 858 00:49:58,274 --> 00:50:00,696 And I think that there's also a ripple effect, right? 859 00:50:00,696 --> 00:50:04,279 Like you sending your girl a cash app then means that in a month, she might turn 860 00:50:04,279 --> 00:50:05,680 around and do that for somebody else. 861 00:50:05,680 --> 00:50:06,220 Right. 862 00:50:06,220 --> 00:50:09,623 And so I wanted it to be a way that we could kind of continue to embody the 863 00:50:09,623 --> 00:50:12,825 spirit of sisterhood in a very tangible way. 864 00:50:15,463 --> 00:50:15,923 love it. 865 00:50:15,923 --> 00:50:19,864 And I think that it was such a great, strong thing to end on. 866 00:50:19,864 --> 00:50:22,645 It gave me some ideas for like things to do. 867 00:50:22,645 --> 00:50:26,366 And also the way that you had so many different types of examples, like that 868 00:50:26,366 --> 00:50:28,026 people's love languages are different. 869 00:50:28,026 --> 00:50:32,948 Like some person, like a cash app is going to mean more to somebody than the flowers 870 00:50:32,948 --> 00:50:36,829 from Trader Joe's, you know, like, you know, it just, I think that was really 871 00:50:36,829 --> 00:50:37,949 very powerful. 872 00:50:37,949 --> 00:50:40,910 I'm going to ask you the last question that we ask everybody on Stitch Police 873 00:50:40,910 --> 00:50:41,470 Podcast. 874 00:50:41,470 --> 00:50:42,203 And it's this. 875 00:50:42,203 --> 00:50:46,429 The slogan of the Stitch Please podcast is that we will help you get your stitch 876 00:50:46,429 --> 00:50:47,390 together. 877 00:50:47,711 --> 00:50:48,031 Dr. 878 00:50:48,031 --> 00:50:54,281 Joy Harden Bradford, it is my honor to ask you, how would you help our audience get 879 00:50:54,281 --> 00:50:55,602 our stitch together? 880 00:50:57,454 --> 00:50:59,655 This feels like such a good question. 881 00:50:59,795 --> 00:51:05,099 I think I would help you to get your stitch together by encouraging you to lean 882 00:51:05,099 --> 00:51:07,121 on the people in your circle. 883 00:51:07,121 --> 00:51:11,804 And if there is not a circle to do a little bit more work to get a circle for 884 00:51:11,804 --> 00:51:16,328 yourself, because we were not meant to do life alone and it is so much better and so 885 00:51:16,328 --> 00:51:19,409 much sweeter with a circle of sisters around us. 886 00:51:22,007 --> 00:51:24,956 And with that, we are grateful to Dr. 887 00:51:24,956 --> 00:51:25,317 Joy. 888 00:51:25,317 --> 00:51:27,805 Thank you so much for being with us today. 889 00:51:27,805 --> 00:51:29,890 This has been a true delight. 890 00:51:30,426 --> 00:51:31,810 Oh, thank you so much, Lisa. 891 00:51:31,810 --> 00:51:33,253 It was such a pleasure.