Hey everybody and welcome to the Stitch Please podcast.
I'm your host, Lisa Woolfork.
And as I say every week, this is a very special episode, but for real, for real,
this one is like, for real, for real special, because I am talking with none
other than the Dr.
Joy Harden Bradford, a licensed clinical psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia, who has
created a platform that not only saves us, but helps us save ourselves.
And has-
rooted such a gorgeous community in what feels like freedom, that it is a blessing
to start this year and to start this, I don't know, this season of our lives with
the book that Dr.
Joy has brought into the world, Sisterhood Heals.
Welcome Dr.
Joy to the Stitch Please podcast.
Oh, thank you so much, Lisa.
I love a beautiful introduction.
Well, it was easy to do because you have created something that is like a fountain.
It's a book, but it's not a book to be read.
It is a book to be savored.
It is a book to be read and reread that even in preparing for the interview, I
went back and it was like I was in graduate school again.
I got all these tabs and underlines and highlights and questions and...
arrows.
And it was because the book took me through a journey.
And I wanted to start our conversation today with how you, in terms of
formulating the book or the idea for the book, what was the first step for you in
that journey?
So Lisa, I don't know if you've heard this story before, but Sisterhood Heals was
actually designed to be an in-person experience.
So the community had been asking for like an in-person activity or like a conference
kind of thing.
And so we were planning to do that in 2020.
And then of course we know what happened in 2020.
Right, right.
So we were hoping, so Sisterhood Heals was the name of what the event was going to
be.
And so of course, after we were in the pandemic, I had a conversation with my
literary agent about, well, what were you planning to cover that weekend?
Like, what did you want that weekend to be about?
And so through conversations with her, it actually became the outline for the book.
So the book really is kind of a...
It follows an outline of what I wanted to have happen that weekend, but not closely,
right?
Cause clearly all that's in the book could not have been covered in a weekend, but it
really kind of captures the spirit of what I would have liked to have happened in
that in-person event, which is conversations about sisterhood, a
celebration of who we are to one another, but also some gentle challenges about how
we could be better to and for one another.
And I'm so glad you explained that because it helps me to better understand why the
book feels so enveloping.
It feels as though when my reading experience was one of feeling as if I was
being held.
There were so many points where you were able to direct our attention to how Black
women
and sisterhood itself became a necessary strategy, a necessary thing for our own,
not just survival, but thriving.
And you don't shy away from the difficult things.
And I will, I want to get to that in the course of this conversation, but I want to
just look really quickly, y'all, on page, on page XV, that's page 15 in the.
Roman numerals as part of the delightful introduction.
I'm gonna do a terrible job reading this because I am not Dr.
Joy.
But she talks about sisterhood as such a vibrant life force for black women.
It is sacred and as such it is important for us to pay attention to the things that
make it difficult and do a better job of navigating those challenges so that it can
continue to be what we need to get through the world together.
And it's that even that one sentence just made me feel like
I am in good hands.
I knew that already.
But there was something about that sentence.
Can you talk a bit about how the transformation from you wanted this to be
an event, but it also feels like it's such a beautiful, almost consolidation of the
Therapy for Black Girls project as a whole, that even if, you know, even though
the event was canceled, it's like this is...
a component of that or a giant, a platform for that or like, I don't know.
It's just feels like a, it's a reason that this book feels like an event.
It feels like an event.
It feels like a multifaceted party.
I'm laughing one minute, I'm boohooing the next.
And, you know, asking myself the same questions all along.
I'm like, oh my gosh, she got shushed off the back porch too, because she got
discovered mind and grown people's business.
Like these little things.
that happened to us, that we just don't, I don't know, that none of this is in
isolation.
So can you talk just a bit about the angle of the whole project that you've created
and how you're helping us to hold one another, both in accountability and love?
Yeah.
So I think, you know, the book cannot be divorced from the time at which I wrote
it, which was in the pandemic, right?
And so, you know, while sisterhood has been important and I do really feel like
has been the foundation of all the things that we have done at Therapy for Black
Girls, it feels like at the time I was writing the book, we were all kind of in a
tizzy, right?
Like we didn't really know what was happening, you know, everything felt
really anxious.
But even in that, there were so many beautiful examples of sisters stepping up
for one another, right?
So there were no shortage of, you know, GoFundMe's and people going to get
medicine for sisters in their neighborhood and like doing Zoom daycare sessions with
the kids in the neighborhood.
Like just all of these ways that we already knew that Black women typically
show up for one another, we were seeing in real time.
And I think it became more magnified because
at the same time, we were also seeing all these systems that I think maybe many of
us thought would be there to save us.
We realized that like we really are all we got, right?
Like when we say like we all we got, I think the pandemic really showed us that
in real time.
And so the book really is, I think, an attempt.
I always say an attempt to give language to that thing that I think often feels
really hard to give language to.
that happens between Black women, right?
Like we kind of know it, I think, you know, in some ways, but it has often felt
intangible and like really difficult to put into words.
But I really felt like it was important for there to be words, right?
Like as a psychologist, I know that this thing that happens with Black women is
something that needs to be documented, that there needs to be some kind of
theory, some kind of language, some kind of like, okay, if it's in a book.
then I can point to this as actual and factual.
And so the book really is an attempt to kind of give some grounding and to give
some language to this thing that I think we often do so naturally, but also again,
an invitation to how we can lean more into sisterhood to be a healing space for us.
I am so moved by this because in many ways, the story of Black Women's Stitch is
the story of Sisterhood Heals.
It is the story of recovery from racial justice organizing and white supremacist
terrorism and all of these things.
And for me, as someone who was reading it, I just felt like even though I did not
have this book at the time of that experience,
it was about three years after you founded Therapy for Black Girls, that I do have
this experience.
And it just mapped on so beautifully that it made me realize that what you've
created is equipping.
It is a resource.
And so I thank you for...
You know, you talk just a bit about the citational practice.
Someone needs to cite this book or someone needs to refer to it or whatever, but it
also needs to exist as an affirmation and a guide and a sign of possibility.
And that's another like really powerful element of this work.
I love how you bridge, um, press fact and fiction.
You know, I really love the series that you did on Insecure.
And if you were team Issa or team Molly and working through their relationships.
And I think it was also pandemic time, perhaps, because a lot of us, I just felt
like I finally got into Insecure after that and was very much invested in this
friendship.
Like I knew these girls.
Like, I don't know, how they gonna figure this out?
And why would she say that?
Oh my God, you know, like really invested.
But I think it also becomes a platform for how we can work out some issues ourselves.
Can you talk a bit about why you like to use popular culture or why you thought
Insecure was a good vehicle to discuss these things?
Mm-hmm.
You know, I think, Lisa, pop culture just, well, one, I spend a lot of time watching
and reading and listening to stuff, so it feels like a good way to, like, make use
of all these things that I'm spending time doing.
But I think pop culture is often so accessible, right?
Like, you know, so many people were watching Intercure.
Like, we are all often watching and listening to the same things.
And I think when you see themes like that present on a screen like that, right, like
where we are following the story of these people.
it makes it easy for you to kind of like talk about the characters in a way that
like doesn't necessarily implicate you, but you know that it has some implications
for your real life.
Right.
And so I think that storyline between Molly and Issa was so impactful to a lot
of black women because it is one of the only instances I can think of where we saw
like a friendship breakup that felt so raw.
And I feel like there's been so many conversations about breakups with friends
and like, that has just been kind of in the ethos for the past couple of years.
And so I think when we saw it on Insecure, it was just a beautiful way to kind of
talk about these things that often happen with black women, but that maybe we didn't
have examples for, or like, oh, you're not supposed to talk about that in public,
right?
And so being able to use the story of these characters really made it easy to
kind of dissect like, okay, what would you do in this example and who was wrong here?
And how would you take accountability?
culture gives us a lens and an end to be able to talk about maybe some more
difficult things without it being talking about us.
And I agree with that so much.
And it also, even if we step back and look at Insecure itself, the idea of being
something that we hadn't seen before, because this is a black woman creating
this.
This is a black woman with a black team and a black cast and a black photo
director, black lighting, someone who knows how to light dark skin, black
people.
So we look gorgeous like we do in real life.
I think that's another thing that made Insecure a kind of cultural property, but
also a form of cultural affirmation, a form of recognition that we can see our
lives.
You know, the ridiculous friend, I think it was this really hilarious line, I'm not
sure if it was Issa's brother said to Kelly, do you listen to yourself?
And she said, yeah, I got a podcast.
Yes.
Right, right.
of course I listened to myself.
Like it just all felt so familiar and how we deserve that, that even the show itself
is a sign of sisterhood, a sign of sisterhood, a sisterhood heals.
I wonder if we could talk a little bit about some of the ways that we can build
community.
I thought that, I think that's something that a lot of people are very interested
in.
I consider Black Women's Stitch a community and trying to, you know, to
cultivate this and to grow and to develop events and to do all these other elements.
How do you, how do you advise folks who are looking to find community, to help, to
build it, to help ask the questions, to find folks of common interest?
How do you advise us to work on building community?
Do we activate what we already have or what we think we have?
How do we get started?
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, I mean, if there is something around you, then I definitely would encourage you
to activate what's already there, because I think sometimes we make the mistake of
like going out to look for something that is already kind of around.
So I typically encourage people to look at the foreground of their lives.
because there could be people already in the foreground that with a little bit of
work, you could bring to the, I mean, look in the background to bring them to the
foreground, right?
So maybe there's a mom that you see in the carpool line, or there's somebody who sits
next to you in yoga, right?
Like, can you take the step to say like, hey, can we grab a smoothie after class?
Or hey, do you wanna get breakfast after we drop the kids off, right?
Like sometimes it requires us to take some steps.
that we may feel a little uncomfortable about, right?
Cause nobody wants to be rejected.
But if you want to get something different, then sometimes you have to make
different choices.
So I definitely would encourage that.
But I also think that social media is just a beautiful way to like tap into the
things that you're interested in, right?
So just like you have.
Black women stitch.
I mean, like I have therapy for black girls.
Like there's so many communities and things that black women have created and
kind of offered to us that anything that you are interested in, you are likely able
to find a black woman who has started some kind of community or some kind of thing
for other people who like those things to also be a part of.
And so just spending a little bit of time searching on Instagram through hashtags
and stuff like that, or Facebook groups can be a great way for you to kind of just
meet other people that are interested in the kinds of things that you are.
I love that.
I think that is so rich and it also lets us to kind of look around, like you said,
where we are, the things we're already doing, and look in a different direction.
It doesn't require like a radical life revamp in order to do these things.
I was thinking about, you do such a wonderful job of setting up scenarios that
allow us to think about, huh, what would I do?
And...
This is a question that came up because as I was reading, there was a group of
friends and they were very much team, no new friend.
And then a new friend brought one of their friends around.
And then like the woman was like, I don't know if I even want to go around with
these people cause why she got to come out?
I don't even know her like that and da da.
And you did such a wonderful job explaining about how the friend who
brought the new friend in could have, you know, maybe give some, give some people
some heads up, just to say, hey.
you know, I want to kind of bring her or I don't know.
I just, I love how you don't shy away from these problems because it somehow, it
feels like if you have problems in your relationships or in your friendships, your
relationships are broken or wrong.
What does it mean to help us see and identify these troubles and how to develop
ways through them?
Yeah, you know, Lisa, I think that we are far too quick to kind of like cut people
off, or like you said, to think that if anything's trouble, that means this
relationship is not worth it, right?
But the truth of it is that we are all human.
We're not robots as magical as black girls or we're not actually superhuman, right?
And so that means we bring in all of our baggage, all of our stuff, all of our
history.
We're bringing all of that to our relationships with one another.
And I think that we could do a better job of offering grace.
to one another and not shying away from the difficult conversations.
Like the first sign of trouble does not mean that the relationship needs to end.
It may just be an opportunity for you to say like, ouch, this thing hurt and can we
talk about it?
Right, so that example of, you know, no new friends and like somebody works with
somebody and they're like, oh, I think my girls would love you.
I'll bring you to happy hour.
Well, you gotta give people a heads up about that, right?
Because...
Who is this person and why is she here in our sacred space, right?
You know, and so I don't think that it is the case of them not necessarily wanting
to maybe get to know her, but it's the fact that you didn't really set her up for
success, right?
So could you say, hey, there's this cool girl that I work with, I'd love to be able
to invite her in two weeks, I think you all would enjoy her.
And then giving them the opportunities to say like, oh yeah, sure, bring her or.
know about that, right?
And then you'll all can have a conversation about it.
But if you take away people's option to actually have a conversation about it,
then you are making it less likely that they are going to welcome her kind of into
the fold.
And I think, of course, you are so right.
I think this whole interview could just be like, yeah, you're right, mm-hmm, yes.
And then just repeat that over and over.
I don't have to say any other, no transition's necessary.
The answer is always Dr.
Joyce obviously right, gosh.
But I think it's the discomfort and the idea that when you talk about sacred and
thinking of sisterhood as sacred, there are some ways that...
Some want a sacred experience that is also trouble free.
And that sacred doesn't necessarily mean that, you know?
And that when you have something that is so, well, maybe I can ask you to talk a
little bit about that.
How does the sanctity or the sacredness of a sisterly space or accommodate challenge
or difficulty or expansion or contraction?
Like, how does that?
show up and maintain that sacredness, because it seems as though it's made
sacred by the people who are participating.
It doesn't just exist sacredness by itself.
So I would love to hear more about that.
Yeah, I honestly think that the ability to withstand some discomfort and challenge is
what makes it sacred and what adds to the sanctity, right?
So I think in sisterhood, it is one of those places where we can kind of practice
being the more prickly, what I call prickly versions of ourselves, right?
So those parts of ourselves that
We don't even want to admit the parts that we know we can be a little clingy or we
can be a little annoying or whatever.
Like our relationships with other black women are often where we can kind of
practice what that behavior feels like to other people and then to maybe get some
feedback about, hey, that's kind of annoying when you do that, but that
doesn't mean I don't love you still, right?
And so I think that being able to kind of be all of who we are in relationships with
other sisters is what really allows for that sacredness, right?
I can be all of who I am and I may aggravate people, I may annoy people, they
may even be mad at me, but that doesn't mean they don't love me.
And so I think that it's a good sign when there's conflict, right?
That means that people are invested enough to disagree with you, right?
If it is only a situation where you're always agreeing and everything is hunky
dory, so to speak, then is there really space for growth in that kind of a
relationship?
That's so powerful because I think wholeness is an essential part for me of
liberation.
It's too often that black women find our lives fragmented into either our roles,
like a wife, mom, professional, whatever.
But also...
Just the things that impact the, patriarchy, for example, damages us as
women.
White supremacy damages us as black people.
These things that show up, and it's really difficult to shoulder the burden of it, or
to thrive through it if you aren't whole.
And so the idea of us bringing our wholeness to each other.
I think that's another one of the elements of the sacredness.
And I do love how the book, Sisterhood Heals, advocates for us to be made whole
through one another.
And you have this beautiful, I think it's a line from Gwendolyn Brooks, and as she
talks about we are each other's harvest, we are each other's business, we are each
other's magnitude and bond.
Y'all read y'all some Gwendolyn Brooks.
She's one of my favorites.
Read Maude Martha.
I'll put a link in the chat.
It's a novella.
You gotta read it.
It's like her only novella.
She wanted to pull it.
Anyway, back to track.
Can you talk about, can you tell us a bit about what it means to be each other's
magnitude?
Like that, you know, we are each other's burden and magnitude.
There was something about the gravity of magnitude as a word there that I think
your book.
really reflects.
It reflects a magnitude.
Can you share a little bit about what you think that quote means and why you used it
to start that section of the work?
Mm-hmm.
Well, one, I just love that quote.
That is also one of my favorites.
And I think it's so true, right?
Like, I think that there is no denying, like, the power that happens when Black
women come together.
And so this idea that we kind of need to operate in silos and like, OK, you do your
stuff over there and I do my stuff over here.
Like, we don't get anywhere further.
if we are not actually invested in each other's health, each other's wellness,
each other's lives, and we know that we go further together.
And so this idea that we need to be separate and not actually kind of
involving ourselves with each other, I think is not accurate.
And we know that is not historically how we have survived, right?
There is a reason there is such a rich history of black women's relationships
with one another.
And I don't think that if it's not broke,
then we don't need to fix it, right?
And so how can we continue with this rich history of really being able to show up
with one another, show up for one another, especially again, in light of all these
systems that are not actually working in our favors, right?
Like there is just so much work left to be done, so much care that needs to be given.
And I think that we are the only ones in a lot of ways who are equipped to be able to
do that with and for one another.
And I think in thinking about some of the responsibilities, I wonder if we could
talk a little bit about some of those, the challenges.
And I think part of it is you do such a beautiful job talking about our cultural
conditioning, the ways that black women are, many of us have, I speak for myself,
a certain type of loyalty.
a certain type of belief that we don't want to do anything because of our
corporate identity, the group identity.
I think you used the word for it that I don't think I ever knew before that talk
about how black women, or black people in general don't want to make the race look
bad.
Or, like if one person does something good, it's like, oh, good for that one
person.
But if one of us does something bad, it's all of us.
And so I'm wondering like how...
we get past that toward the healing to be able to say, as you said, this is
difficult or this is painful, or when we feel disappointed, when we feel
disappointed in our sisters, when we feel like you're not someone who's interested
in community, you think of community as a commodity.
And now, you had that wonderful story about that poor woman who had really loved
this woman, this sister, and admired her work, and just had some questions about
her 9999 program that she was selling.
And the lady went off on her and then took her post as an example.
And this why y'all ain't going to never make no money, because you don't want to
pay nothing.
You know, like, OK, girl, now I'm really glad I paused on that.
But.
ha ha.
about how do we handle our disappointments or even being very frustrated at the
honeypot lady when she changed the formula for the wash or whatever, these kinds of
things that we invest so much and then sometimes we get disappointed.
How do you advise us to kind of get to go through that or to manage that?
Yeah, so I think we have to first be okay with honoring the disappointment, right?
Because I think what often happens is that we feel these feelings that feel shameful,
right?
Like, oh, I shouldn't feel that way about another black woman, but it's okay.
Like, feelings are just information, right?
So it's okay to feel however you're feeling.
What really is the issue, though, is then what do you do with those feelings, right?
So we can allow for space to be disappointed and to check in with
ourselves.
I think about...
what's actually coming up for me in this moment, right?
Because while it looks like it is about the honeypot challenge or changing the
formula, what is, if you dig a little deeper, we're not really still talking
about a cleaner.
Now we're talking about a sense of betrayal or a sense of being abandoned or
left behind, right?
Like...
When we see these kinds of reactions that are disproportionate to the thing that has
happened, usually there's an indication that something else is going on.
And I think we can only get to that if we are quiet and still and actually sit down
with ourselves to say, why am I disappointed here?
And then what can I do about it, right?
So I typically think that like social media posts and like going public with
these kinds of things are typically not at least the first response.
Because you probably have not sat down with yourself long enough to kind of work
through whatever is happening But going to your trusted group chat or talking with a
therapist about it about what is coming up for you can actually help you To kind of
figure out okay What needs to be happening here and I think on the other side if you
are somebody who has seen community as a commodity I think you also need to check
yourself to kind of think about
how you are weaponizing this thing that we know black women readily and loyally kind
of give, right, like we will ride into the wheels fall off for a black woman's
business.
But does that mean then as the business owner, you get to discard this community
when they are of no use to you anymore, right?
Like I think as a black woman who is building a business that is like catering
to black women, you do have a different code of ethics.
I think that you just do because...
You can't want to use community when it is in your advantage and then want to just,
you know, kind of discard the community when they try to hold you accountable.
It's like, you can't have both.
So either make a product that everybody can use.
And if the black girls get on, then fine, but don't use us as a way to kind of build
your business and then say like, okay, I've made my millions now.
Like I'm off to the next thing.
Like I think you do have a different level of responsibility when you are building a
business that caters specifically to black people.
I could not agree more because as you said, that we have a certain type of, we
have a really strong loyalty, especially to brand and products.
I was talking to my sister about this and it's like, we use Tide because my mama
used Tide.
That's what we use.
And then she, Lord, then she switched to Gain and it was a bit of a crisis.
And I was like, well, I guess now we use Gain?
use game now.
Legit, we all, me and my sisters all use game because mama started using game.
And clearly, I mean, who's not gonna do what she's doing?
Like what?
So it was, I think that you're so right about that.
I wanted to pivot to talk a bit about creative liberation.
And this brings us back to some of the sewing and crafts elements.
And as quiet as it's kept, you did sew something.
You have sewn.
I'd love to know more if you have a sewing.
I would love to know Dr.
Joy's sewing story.
This is, I'm sure what everybody's really excited for is yes, she wrote this really
great book, it's best seller, it's amazing, it'll change your life, but do
you sew though?
That's what they're gonna be asking.
So I did vet her beforehand, friends.
She did make a skirt in middle school or a tote bag or something.
So she's got some bona fides.
But tell us about your sewing story such as it is.
You're among friends, it's a safe space.
We tapped into this when you were a guest on Therapy for Black Girls, but your story
really reminded me of taking home economics in high school.
So in ninth grade, we had home economics and one of the units was sewing.
And so we made this pair of boxer shorts that I think probably fell apart, you
know, within like three washes.
But it was enough for me to be able to like...
stitch enough so that I remember my dad had a hole in a t-shirt or whatever and I
stitched it up with like green thread on a white t-shirt which was hilarious.
But one of my fondest memories of sewing is not necessarily my own, it is my
grandmother's.
So I remember, so I'm from Louisiana, I talk about that all throughout the book,
and my the men in my family are historically welders.
And so you know I remember many nights
Yeah, my grandmother like up, patching up my uncle's jeans, because like, you know,
they had been on the ship or whatever and had gotten a hole in the jeans.
And so she would always be doing all this stitching and patching up jeans.
And so I do come from a family of people who have done some sewing.
And I remember my mom made me my favorite Halloween costume, maybe in like third or
fourth grade, it was a Raggedy Ann costume that I loved so, so much.
Yeah, so I come from a family of so is, but I have not necessarily like gotten
back into that, but I do enough to be able to like put a button back on my kids
jacket or, you know, something like that.
That's great.
Because I hate putting buttons.
My kids be buttonless because I hate that.
I'm like, oh, really?
It's so boring.
Mm hmm.
I too bad you don't live closer friend.
Too bad.
I'm like, you know what?
Right over the doctor, Joy, she loved putting buttons on stuff.
Absolutely.
Yes.
My poor spouse, they got to go out and get there.
I'm like, oh, these pants need to be hemmed.
I'm like, you know what?
Cleaners is only $12.
You got $12.
I will absolutely.
And they'll do it for you.
I certainly don't want to.
So, but I, one of the things I love about it is that the, the act of sewing is one
thing that I'm arguing is as Audrey Lord talks about in her, you've mentioned this
as well, that the master's tools will never dismantle the master's house.
And so I've developed this idea that sewing is an example of something that is
antithetical to master's tools.
Anything can be co-opted.
but the needle and thread has been consigned to a realm of service that the
master, quote unquote, doesn't deploy.
He might control it, but doesn't do it themselves.
And so it feels like a liberatory act to just, to put, almost like putting pen to
paper, you know, to kind of to write something, to express something.
I feel that way about needle and thread and fabric and, you know,
creating something that was not there before, did not exist before I made it,
you know?
And so there's something I think inherently healing in some ways about
sewing.
And you see this a lot in the sewing community.
There are t-shirts and slogans and sewing is my therapy.
And I'm like, whoa, that is so inappropriate.
Let us, let's say.
But really, Dr.
Joy, and I guess one of the things I might ask is about when you talk about therapy
for black girls, it really puts therapy right up front, you know?
And there has been in the past a historic reluctance among some black communities,
I'm not going to say all black, but some black communities, especially some
religious ones who have been kind of, no, therapy is not something we need or would
do or whatever.
And you've done a powerful job dismantling that myth.
with this project.
Can you talk a bit about the ways that we might use creative expression, use art,
use drawing, use piano, use music, use the things that we do that might not bring us
money, but they bring us pleasure.
How does that serve a therapeutic function without being like, this is the only thing
I'm going to do to heal my mental health?
Right, right.
Yeah, I love those t-shirts and slogans, right?
And I often get a good laugh at those things too, because they are therapeutic,
right?
Like sewing can be therapeutic, running can be therapeutic, but it is not
necessarily the same thing as therapy, right?
It's not replacing a relationship with a licensed mental health professional where
you are talking about things, unpacking all of those things.
But it is still important.
And to your earlier point, Lisa, you know, there has been a reluctance to embrace,
like mental health and therapy.
And rightfully so, right?
Like we cannot deny.
the white supremacy and like the historical functions of our field.
But I think what has been so important to me and really critical for me to do with
Therapy for Black Girls is to talk about like how we have come from that history,
but this is still for us, right?
Because we know that even though we weren't calling people therapists in our
ancestral communities, we know that there have always been healers in our community,
right?
And so.
therapy in the way that we do it now, is just, I think, a continuation of the
things that our ancestors started.
So even though it did not start from us, we know that healing has always been our
birthright and that healers have always been in our communities.
And so therapy for black girls really has been, I think, a really cool way to kind
of talk about, okay, there is mental illness, right?
Like, let's talk about the signs of depression, the signs of anxiety, you
know, what it's like to take medication, but let's also talk about all these other
things.
that we can do to actually take care of our mental health.
Because I think for a long time, people have only thought about mental health as
like the avoidance of illness, as opposed to let's pay attention to our sleep
hygiene, right, and like how does sleep impact our mental health?
Let's talk about like movement and how, you know, our endorphins, you know, get
through the roof when we go for a nice long walk, or what does it mean to be in
community and to have close friendship relationships and how that's also a really
good thing to buffer us from stress.
So there are all these different things that I think that are really, really
critical to our mental health.
And that's really what therapy for black girls has been about is to be able to kind
of explore all of those things that we don't necessarily think about when we
think about mental health.
And I really appreciate the way that you think about health and wellness, that it
doesn't, you know, it doesn't have to be, we don't have to think about it in an
extreme, like, Oh, someone's had a break or you know, something like that, that
it's just, it can, that we deserve that healing is all wholeness and wellness.
All of these things are things that are, that belong to us by right.
Another thing that's so wonderful about the book in this context is you are
creating.
a practice in the book itself that will allow, I think, future clinicians as well
as just readers like myself, it is equipping them as well.
You have built by the ways that you cite other black women throughout this book,
you dropping Patricia Hill Collins and Evelyn Higginbotham and all of these
historians, and you are creating
And as we have in ourselves, you are creating that which should have been there
for us, but never was because we weren't seen.
And yet again, you are proving, just like you do with when you look at insecure, you
are proving that we have already been there in these fields of health and
wellness and psychology.
And we have contributions that are utterly unique and necessary.
that allow us to, that allow us to build what we need.
And you have done that so, just so beautifully throughout this book.
Were there any parts of it, of the writing process?
I'd love to hear more about that as someone who is finished starting a book
right now.
That, what are some of the parts that were challenging for you?
Did you ever get to, so you seem to have had an already really robust outline.
because you had this event that was going to happen.
So you were able to kind of have that be like a scaffold and build things around
it.
But when it came down to put pen to paper or to sit in front of the laptop or
however you write, was there any challenges or things that came easier,
things that you kind of had to sit with a little longer?
Hmm, you know, honestly Lisa, the whole process was really difficult just because
it was a new thing, right?
Like I kept trying to equate it to writing my dissertation, which was the only
framework I had for like writing something of this magnitude.
And it clearly is very different from a dissertation because your dissertation
isn't necessarily meant to be like entertaining and like enjoyable.
It's like, it's research, right?
Yeah.
And so.
that.
Yeah.
Exactly, the people on your committee and maybe your mom and them like, you know, a
grand total of seven.
Yeah.
Yeah, so it was really a difficult process because I was trying to do something very
new.
Um, and I also am somebody who like
I'm not super flowery in my language.
And I think a lot of that is like being trained as a psychologist to like write a
certain way and like, okay, these are the facts.
Like you don't need to add too much like interpretation.
And so it was really hard for me to kind of make a book that like, I feel like
people would really get in like the storytelling and you know, that kind of
thing.
So I actually worked with a writer, Tracy Louis Giggott, Tracy Michelle Louis
Giggott, who really helped me to kind of like.
pull the story pieces out of it, right?
To make it something that people would actually enjoy reading.
So I think that the storytelling piece was a little more difficult for me.
And I also was really worried Lisa as a podcaster, if my voice would translate on
the page.
So, you know, I think that people have an expectation of like who Dr.
Joy is when they hear me on the mic, or like if I'm doing a speaking engagement,
right?
Like I think that there is a warmth that I convey.
And I was really worried that would not translate on the page.
And so I have been, it is always such a pleasure to get feedback from readers that
they do feel like it translated.
Cause that probably was my biggest worry was that like, I wouldn't get the tone
right.
And like it would feel too scholarly or people would be like, oh, this doesn't
sound like Dr.
Joy.
So I'm really glad to hear that it did translate in that way.
It absolutely did.
And there's also a built in cheat code, which is listening to the audio version.
Because when I tell, when I tell y'all, I believe that Dr.
Joy Harden Bradford sat down one day and read me this book over the course of two
months, because it's, it's really, it's cause you know, we have you, you know,
you're in our ear on the podcast, you know, but like to have these, um, to have
you like,
give this long, this, it's a rather, I think about seven hours worth, I think,
seven hours long.
It really, maybe eight, it's a really, it's such a gift.
And I, there's a, there's a way in Audible, which is what I used to do audio
books, that you can make tabs, you can like make clips, you can tab, tap the
thing and like add a note or tap the clip and then you can go back and listen to it.
I got about like 40 clips of like things that I wanna go back and, I'm like,
feature in Audible.
Ha ha ha.
Okay.
it's, it's like, I'm, I'm absolutely going to show you cause I'm a fan girl.
Cause like it was, I was looking cause you can go back and look at all your bookmarks
and you can manage your clips and it has these little, I've got like,
all of these things that it's like, oh yeah, let me, that's a good one.
I might ask about that.
Like I don't think I ask about any of them.
I'm going to have to call you on the phone.
But, um, the, the thing I was, I was excited about was indeed like, it really
is feeling like we have you with us, you know, and the warmth, the joy, the, the
happiness in your voice, all of that translated, I think incredibly well to the
page and the, the
The audio is just such a, another version, another version of that.
Did you, was the recording process weird to like, or was it pretty much just like
you do in the podcast?
You know, at least I expected it to be like, oh, I do this all the time, but it
was very different, right?
Because I'm in a studio by myself, there's an engineer on the other side of the wall,
and then there's a producer in your ear, and I think he was in like New York or
somewhere, right?
And so he's saying like, oh, go back and do this, or let's give that another try,
right?
And so usually, of course, when I'm doing the podcast, like there's nobody, I mean,
maybe my producers will say like, okay, let's go ask this question, but they're
not usually in my ear.
And so that was a much more difficult process than I anticipated, especially
since I talk, you know, kind of for a living at this point.
Yeah.
Oh, that's, that's amazing.
Let me ask you throughout writing the book, what did you learn?
Do you have some key learnings that you've gotten either from finishing the book,
turning it in saying, okay, I released this now I've done it, or key learnings
from getting feedback from readers and listeners that has given you, um, that's
giving you something that you really cherish.
Hmm.
I will say the key feedback or the key piece of, you know, learning that I've
gotten from finishing the book was that I can actually do hard things.
You know, because I definitely had some imposter syndrome stuff kicking in there.
And it's like, you know, there was so many weeks of my therapy sessions dedicated to
like book writing stuff like I feel like until I finished.
And then when it was time to market, it was like a whole new slate of like new
problems to talk about with my therapist.
But I didn't expect so much of my mental health necessarily to be wrapped up in the
writing process, but I definitely got in my head about how are people gonna receive
it, and is it gonna translate?
So I think the key piece that I take with me is that I can do hard things and then
let it go and kinda let it be what it is.
I think from the readers, what I have learned is that people are expecting more.
Right?
Like people are like, okay, well, this was great, but when is the next one?
Like, what is, what's happening?
I'm like, oh my God, y'all, I don't know.
I don't know if I got it in me again.
now I got four more sessions, lining up with therapists, something to talk about.
Now I got to talk about the fear of failure is one thing, man, fear of success
is quite something else.
Oh my goodness.
That's what we're dealing with now.
I really, I feel like the paint is not yet dry on this book.
It's like.
Hehehehe
It's like, can I, can I please have just a teeny bit more time to rest, please?
Please?
Can I get like three more months, just like a symbolic, just symbolically, let's
have nine months go by before we start thinking about anything else.
Just symbolically.
I was thinking, it's also really gratifying to kind of know or warming to
know and daring to know that of course, I mean, I'm like sitting here like, Jordan,
do you know who you are?
what you mean?
Of course I can do hard things.
I'm like, you did build, you did write a, you did, you know, go to graduate school
and, you know, wrote a dissertation and had a practice and then built something
that's incredibly unique.
That is like, it's inevitable, you know, it's completely new, it's novel.
And I say inevitable because it's unique, but I think you also want people to be
able to build these kinds of things.
I remember one of your episodes where a person was working on
um, yoga and did a lot of like yoga events and they were going to, and it just felt
like you are encouraging us to do hard things all the time, whether that's called
that friend or maybe don't call that friend or, you know, you are always
encouraging us to do hard things.
So the idea that you are somehow like, Hmm, this is hard.
It just, it, it just makes me, it's, for me, that's like a big takeaway, like,
Dr.
Joy be struggling with stuff?
What?
What you talk, what you say now?
What?
Absolutely.
But you know, Lisa, I think the difference to me here was that therapy for black
girls kind of was created by accident.
Like I didn't sit down and say, like, I want a business dedicated to like black
women's mental health.
Like I was kind of already doing that work and it kind of grew as an extension of
that.
But I think the book was something that was like, okay, I intentionally pitched
this book.
I said, I'm going to do this thing.
And so it felt like one of the first things in a very long time that I said
like, okay, I'm going to do this thing and then you gotta finish it.
So it felt like a very different process to me.
Yeah, I can understand that.
I can understand that.
I think that looking at your story from a distance and seeing therapy for black
girls as, you know, a known entity, um, as something that is already doing thriving
and healing work in the community, it's kind of, it is also, you get a little
spoiled.
You feel like, Oh, that's always been here.
You know, it's like, it's, well, it's what it means to like, what you've done is
build an institution.
You've you've you really, I think you have, and it really is so robust and
necessary.
And when, like in the chapter, you talk about sisterhood over systems.
You know, and you have created in therapy for black girls, the podcast, the book,
the sister circle community, the, you know, all of these things that you've
already given us such.
powerful gifts and gifts that continue to equip us, you know, and so it really
becomes I don't know it's a rich opportunity and a rare gift to talk with
you about your process and that processes are currently always ongoing and that we
too are in the middle of a process.
We too.
want something and to get there will be a journey and there will be steps to be
taken.
Like that just, I don't know, I just feel like that's something that we, you know,
we see the bit we see, I think we sometimes get too accustomed to a before
and after picture.
You know, it's just the before.
And then in about two seconds, up comes the after, you know, or before and now.
but all that ugly middle and the uncertainty and the, oh my gosh, what was
I thinking?
All that's in the middle, you know?
And so I just love how in talking about your process a bit, you've given us the
chance to think about our own processes.
You close the book with sister acts, with resources for ways we can encourage our
sisters.
There are some really wonderful tips in there.
Can you talk about why you thought it was important to end the book?
with a list of actions for different things, for different, like this is
connect with, hype them up, connect with the janitorial and the custodial staff at
work.
For me, something I learned in grad school is be nice to secretaries.
These things, cash up your girl, send her a playlist, all these different things.
Why did you think it was important that when we got to the end of this wonderful
journey,
that we were left with some kind of action items.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, because I didn't want it to be a book that you just read and thought like,
oh, that was cute.
And then you just put it back on your shelf, right?
Like I wanted it to be something that you then were moved to act.
Right.
And I think that there's also a ripple effect, right?
Like you sending your girl a cash app then means that in a month, she might turn
around and do that for somebody else.
Right.
And so I wanted it to be a way that we could kind of continue to embody the
spirit of sisterhood in a very tangible way.
love it.
And I think that it was such a great, strong thing to end on.
It gave me some ideas for like things to do.
And also the way that you had so many different types of examples, like that
people's love languages are different.
Like some person, like a cash app is going to mean more to somebody than the flowers
from Trader Joe's, you know, like, you know, it just, I think that was really
very powerful.
I'm going to ask you the last question that we ask everybody on Stitch Police
Podcast.
And it's this.
The slogan of the Stitch Please podcast is that we will help you get your stitch
together.
Dr.
Joy Harden Bradford, it is my honor to ask you, how would you help our audience get
our stitch together?
This feels like such a good question.
I think I would help you to get your stitch together by encouraging you to lean
on the people in your circle.
And if there is not a circle to do a little bit more work to get a circle for
yourself, because we were not meant to do life alone and it is so much better and so
much sweeter with a circle of sisters around us.
And with that, we are grateful to Dr.
Joy.
Thank you so much for being with us today.
This has been a true delight.
Oh, thank you so much, Lisa.
It was such a pleasure.