Hey everybody and welcome to the Stitch
Please podcast.
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I'm your host, Lisa Woolfork.
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And as I say every week, this is a very
special episode, but for real, for real,
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this one is like, for real, for real
special, because I am talking with none
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other than the Dr.
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Joy Harden Bradford, a licensed clinical
psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia, who has
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created a platform that not only saves us,
but helps us save ourselves.
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And has-
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rooted such a gorgeous community in what
feels like freedom, that it is a blessing
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to start this year and to start this, I
don't know, this season of our lives with
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the book that Dr.
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Joy has brought into the world, Sisterhood
Heals.
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Welcome Dr.
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Joy to the Stitch Please podcast.
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Oh, thank you so much, Lisa.
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I love a beautiful introduction.
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Well, it was easy to do because you have
created something that is like a fountain.
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It's a book, but it's not a book to be
read.
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It is a book to be savored.
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It is a book to be read and reread that
even in preparing for the interview, I
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went back and it was like I was in
graduate school again.
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I got all these tabs and underlines and
highlights and questions and...
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arrows.
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And it was because the book took me
through a journey.
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And I wanted to start our conversation
today with how you, in terms of
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formulating the book or the idea for the
book, what was the first step for you in
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that journey?
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So Lisa, I don't know if you've heard this
story before, but Sisterhood Heals was
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actually designed to be an in-person
experience.
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So the community had been asking for like
an in-person activity or like a conference
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kind of thing.
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And so we were planning to do that in
2020.
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And then of course we know what happened
in 2020.
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Right, right.
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So we were hoping, so Sisterhood Heals was
the name of what the event was going to
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be.
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And so of course, after we were in the
pandemic, I had a conversation with my
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literary agent about, well, what were you
planning to cover that weekend?
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Like, what did you want that weekend to be
about?
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And so through conversations with her, it
actually became the outline for the book.
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So the book really is kind of a...
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It follows an outline of what I wanted to
have happen that weekend, but not closely,
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right?
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Cause clearly all that's in the book could
not have been covered in a weekend, but it
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really kind of captures the spirit of what
I would have liked to have happened in
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that in-person event, which is
conversations about sisterhood, a
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celebration of who we are to one another,
but also some gentle challenges about how
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we could be better to and for one another.
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And I'm so glad you explained that because
it helps me to better understand why the
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book feels so enveloping.
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It feels as though when my reading
experience was one of feeling as if I was
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being held.
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There were so many points where you were
able to direct our attention to how Black
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women
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and sisterhood itself became a necessary
strategy, a necessary thing for our own,
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not just survival, but thriving.
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And you don't shy away from the difficult
things.
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And I will, I want to get to that in the
course of this conversation, but I want to
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just look really quickly, y'all, on page,
on page XV, that's page 15 in the.
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Roman numerals as part of the delightful
introduction.
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I'm gonna do a terrible job reading this
because I am not Dr.
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Joy.
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But she talks about sisterhood as such a
vibrant life force for black women.
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It is sacred and as such it is important
for us to pay attention to the things that
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make it difficult and do a better job of
navigating those challenges so that it can
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continue to be what we need to get through
the world together.
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And it's that even that one sentence just
made me feel like
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I am in good hands.
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I knew that already.
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But there was something about that
sentence.
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Can you talk a bit about how the
transformation from you wanted this to be
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an event, but it also feels like it's such
a beautiful, almost consolidation of the
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Therapy for Black Girls project as a
whole, that even if, you know, even though
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the event was canceled, it's like this
is...
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a component of that or a giant, a platform
for that or like, I don't know.
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It's just feels like a, it's a reason that
this book feels like an event.
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It feels like an event.
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It feels like a multifaceted party.
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I'm laughing one minute, I'm boohooing the
next.
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And, you know, asking myself the same
questions all along.
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I'm like, oh my gosh, she got shushed off
the back porch too, because she got
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discovered mind and grown people's
business.
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Like these little things.
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that happened to us, that we just don't, I
don't know, that none of this is in
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isolation.
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So can you talk just a bit about the angle
of the whole project that you've created
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and how you're helping us to hold one
another, both in accountability and love?
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Yeah.
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So I think, you know, the book cannot be
divorced from the time at which I wrote
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it, which was in the pandemic, right?
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And so, you know, while sisterhood has
been important and I do really feel like
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has been the foundation of all the things
that we have done at Therapy for Black
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Girls, it feels like at the time I was
writing the book, we were all kind of in a
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tizzy, right?
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Like we didn't really know what was
happening, you know, everything felt
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really anxious.
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But even in that, there were so many
beautiful examples of sisters stepping up
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for one another, right?
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So there were no shortage of, you know,
GoFundMe's and people going to get
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medicine for sisters in their neighborhood
and like doing Zoom daycare sessions with
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the kids in the neighborhood.
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Like just all of these ways that we
already knew that Black women typically
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show up for one another, we were seeing in
real time.
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And I think it became more magnified
because
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at the same time, we were also seeing all
these systems that I think maybe many of
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us thought would be there to save us.
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We realized that like we really are all we
got, right?
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Like when we say like we all we got, I
think the pandemic really showed us that
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in real time.
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And so the book really is, I think, an
attempt.
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I always say an attempt to give language
to that thing that I think often feels
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really hard to give language to.
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that happens between Black women, right?
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Like we kind of know it, I think, you
know, in some ways, but it has often felt
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intangible and like really difficult to
put into words.
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But I really felt like it was important
for there to be words, right?
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Like as a psychologist, I know that this
thing that happens with Black women is
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something that needs to be documented,
that there needs to be some kind of
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theory, some kind of language, some kind
of like, okay, if it's in a book.
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then I can point to this as actual and
factual.
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And so the book really is an attempt to
kind of give some grounding and to give
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some language to this thing that I think
we often do so naturally, but also again,
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an invitation to how we can lean more into
sisterhood to be a healing space for us.
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I am so moved by this because in many
ways, the story of Black Women's Stitch is
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the story of Sisterhood Heals.
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It is the story of recovery from racial
justice organizing and white supremacist
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terrorism and all of these things.
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And for me, as someone who was reading it,
I just felt like even though I did not
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have this book at the time of that
experience,
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it was about three years after you founded
Therapy for Black Girls, that I do have
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this experience.
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And it just mapped on so beautifully that
it made me realize that what you've
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created is equipping.
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It is a resource.
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And so I thank you for...
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You know, you talk just a bit about the
citational practice.
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Someone needs to cite this book or someone
needs to refer to it or whatever, but it
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also needs to exist as an affirmation and
a guide and a sign of possibility.
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And that's another like really powerful
element of this work.
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I love how you bridge, um, press fact and
fiction.
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You know, I really love the series that
you did on Insecure.
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And if you were team Issa or team Molly
and working through their relationships.
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And I think it was also pandemic time,
perhaps, because a lot of us, I just felt
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like I finally got into Insecure after
that and was very much invested in this
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friendship.
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Like I knew these girls.
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Like, I don't know, how they gonna figure
this out?
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And why would she say that?
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Oh my God, you know, like really invested.
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But I think it also becomes a platform for
how we can work out some issues ourselves.
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Can you talk a bit about why you like to
use popular culture or why you thought
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Insecure was a good vehicle to discuss
these things?
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Mm-hmm.
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You know, I think, Lisa, pop culture just,
well, one, I spend a lot of time watching
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and reading and listening to stuff, so it
feels like a good way to, like, make use
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of all these things that I'm spending time
doing.
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But I think pop culture is often so
accessible, right?
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Like, you know, so many people were
watching Intercure.
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Like, we are all often watching and
listening to the same things.
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And I think when you see themes like that
present on a screen like that, right, like
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where we are following the story of these
people.
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it makes it easy for you to kind of like
talk about the characters in a way that
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like doesn't necessarily implicate you,
but you know that it has some implications
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for your real life.
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Right.
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And so I think that storyline between
Molly and Issa was so impactful to a lot
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of black women because it is one of the
only instances I can think of where we saw
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like a friendship breakup that felt so
raw.
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And I feel like there's been so many
conversations about breakups with friends
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and like, that has just been kind of in
the ethos for the past couple of years.
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And so I think when we saw it on Insecure,
it was just a beautiful way to kind of
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talk about these things that often happen
with black women, but that maybe we didn't
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have examples for, or like, oh, you're not
supposed to talk about that in public,
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right?
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And so being able to use the story of
these characters really made it easy to
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kind of dissect like, okay, what would you
do in this example and who was wrong here?
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And how would you take accountability?
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culture gives us a lens and an end to be
able to talk about maybe some more
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difficult things without it being talking
about us.
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And I agree with that so much.
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And it also, even if we step back and look
at Insecure itself, the idea of being
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something that we hadn't seen before,
because this is a black woman creating
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this.
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This is a black woman with a black team
and a black cast and a black photo
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director, black lighting, someone who
knows how to light dark skin, black
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people.
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So we look gorgeous like we do in real
life.
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I think that's another thing that made
Insecure a kind of cultural property, but
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also a form of cultural affirmation, a
form of recognition that we can see our
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lives.
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You know, the ridiculous friend, I think
it was this really hilarious line, I'm not
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sure if it was Issa's brother said to
Kelly, do you listen to yourself?
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And she said, yeah, I got a podcast.
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Yes.
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Right, right.
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of course I listened to myself.
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Like it just all felt so familiar and how
we deserve that, that even the show itself
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is a sign of sisterhood, a sign of
sisterhood, a sisterhood heals.
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I wonder if we could talk a little bit
about some of the ways that we can build
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community.
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I thought that, I think that's something
that a lot of people are very interested
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in.
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I consider Black Women's Stitch a
community and trying to, you know, to
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cultivate this and to grow and to develop
events and to do all these other elements.
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How do you, how do you advise folks who
are looking to find community, to help, to
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build it, to help ask the questions, to
find folks of common interest?
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How do you advise us to work on building
community?
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Do we activate what we already have or
what we think we have?
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How do we get started?
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Mm-hmm.
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Yeah, I mean, if there is something around
you, then I definitely would encourage you
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to activate what's already there, because
I think sometimes we make the mistake of
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like going out to look for something that
is already kind of around.
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So I typically encourage people to look at
the foreground of their lives.
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because there could be people already in
the foreground that with a little bit of
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work, you could bring to the, I mean, look
in the background to bring them to the
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foreground, right?
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So maybe there's a mom that you see in the
carpool line, or there's somebody who sits
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next to you in yoga, right?
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Like, can you take the step to say like,
hey, can we grab a smoothie after class?
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Or hey, do you wanna get breakfast after
we drop the kids off, right?
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Like sometimes it requires us to take some
steps.
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that we may feel a little uncomfortable
about, right?
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Cause nobody wants to be rejected.
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But if you want to get something
different, then sometimes you have to make
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different choices.
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So I definitely would encourage that.
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But I also think that social media is just
a beautiful way to like tap into the
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things that you're interested in, right?
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So just like you have.
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Black women stitch.
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I mean, like I have therapy for black
girls.
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Like there's so many communities and
things that black women have created and
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kind of offered to us that anything that
you are interested in, you are likely able
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to find a black woman who has started some
kind of community or some kind of thing
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for other people who like those things to
also be a part of.
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And so just spending a little bit of time
searching on Instagram through hashtags
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and stuff like that, or Facebook groups
can be a great way for you to kind of just
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meet other people that are interested in
the kinds of things that you are.
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I love that.
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I think that is so rich and it also lets
us to kind of look around, like you said,
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where we are, the things we're already
doing, and look in a different direction.
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It doesn't require like a radical life
revamp in order to do these things.
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I was thinking about, you do such a
wonderful job of setting up scenarios that
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allow us to think about, huh, what would I
do?
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And...
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This is a question that came up because as
I was reading, there was a group of
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friends and they were very much team, no
new friend.
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And then a new friend brought one of their
friends around.
250
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And then like the woman was like, I don't
know if I even want to go around with
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these people cause why she got to come
out?
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I don't even know her like that and da da.
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And you did such a wonderful job
explaining about how the friend who
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brought the new friend in could have, you
know, maybe give some, give some people
255
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some heads up, just to say, hey.
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you know, I want to kind of bring her or I
don't know.
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I just, I love how you don't shy away from
these problems because it somehow, it
258
00:16:01,677 --> 00:16:05,879
feels like if you have problems in your
relationships or in your friendships, your
259
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relationships are broken or wrong.
260
00:16:08,201 --> 00:16:15,726
What does it mean to help us see and
identify these troubles and how to develop
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ways through them?
262
00:16:17,854 --> 00:16:22,475
Yeah, you know, Lisa, I think that we are
far too quick to kind of like cut people
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00:16:22,475 --> 00:16:26,696
off, or like you said, to think that if
anything's trouble, that means this
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relationship is not worth it, right?
265
00:16:28,517 --> 00:16:30,757
But the truth of it is that we are all
human.
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We're not robots as magical as black girls
or we're not actually superhuman, right?
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And so that means we bring in all of our
baggage, all of our stuff, all of our
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history.
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We're bringing all of that to our
relationships with one another.
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And I think that we could do a better job
of offering grace.
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to one another and not shying away from
the difficult conversations.
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Like the first sign of trouble does not
mean that the relationship needs to end.
273
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It may just be an opportunity for you to
say like, ouch, this thing hurt and can we
274
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talk about it?
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00:17:00,394 --> 00:17:04,297
Right, so that example of, you know, no
new friends and like somebody works with
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somebody and they're like, oh, I think my
girls would love you.
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00:17:06,538 --> 00:17:08,840
I'll bring you to happy hour.
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00:17:08,840 --> 00:17:10,941
Well, you gotta give people a heads up
about that, right?
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Because...
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00:17:11,766 --> 00:17:15,767
Who is this person and why is she here in
our sacred space, right?
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00:17:15,767 --> 00:17:20,250
You know, and so I don't think that it is
the case of them not necessarily wanting
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to maybe get to know her, but it's the
fact that you didn't really set her up for
283
00:17:23,931 --> 00:17:25,012
success, right?
284
00:17:25,012 --> 00:17:28,914
So could you say, hey, there's this cool
girl that I work with, I'd love to be able
285
00:17:28,914 --> 00:17:32,055
to invite her in two weeks, I think you
all would enjoy her.
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00:17:32,055 --> 00:17:36,337
And then giving them the opportunities to
say like, oh yeah, sure, bring her or.
287
00:17:36,846 --> 00:17:37,746
know about that, right?
288
00:17:37,746 --> 00:17:39,928
And then you'll all can have a
conversation about it.
289
00:17:39,928 --> 00:17:43,590
But if you take away people's option to
actually have a conversation about it,
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00:17:43,590 --> 00:17:47,473
then you are making it less likely that
they are going to welcome her kind of into
291
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the fold.
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00:17:49,971 --> 00:17:52,632
And I think, of course, you are so right.
293
00:17:52,632 --> 00:17:56,174
I think this whole interview could just be
like, yeah, you're right, mm-hmm, yes.
294
00:17:56,174 --> 00:17:58,616
And then just repeat that over and over.
295
00:17:58,996 --> 00:18:02,038
I don't have to say any other, no
transition's necessary.
296
00:18:02,378 --> 00:18:03,619
The answer is always Dr.
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00:18:03,619 --> 00:18:06,340
Joyce obviously right, gosh.
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00:18:06,521 --> 00:18:11,684
But I think it's the discomfort and the
idea that when you talk about sacred and
299
00:18:11,684 --> 00:18:16,346
thinking of sisterhood as sacred, there
are some ways that...
300
00:18:16,563 --> 00:18:21,626
Some want a sacred experience that is also
trouble free.
301
00:18:22,828 --> 00:18:28,312
And that sacred doesn't necessarily mean
that, you know?
302
00:18:28,312 --> 00:18:32,075
And that when you have something that is
so, well, maybe I can ask you to talk a
303
00:18:32,075 --> 00:18:33,276
little bit about that.
304
00:18:33,276 --> 00:18:41,483
How does the sanctity or the sacredness of
a sisterly space or accommodate challenge
305
00:18:41,483 --> 00:18:44,845
or difficulty or expansion or contraction?
306
00:18:44,845 --> 00:18:46,447
Like, how does that?
307
00:18:46,447 --> 00:18:52,876
show up and maintain that sacredness,
because it seems as though it's made
308
00:18:52,876 --> 00:18:55,841
sacred by the people who are
participating.
309
00:18:55,841 --> 00:18:57,964
It doesn't just exist sacredness by
itself.
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00:18:57,964 --> 00:19:00,006
So I would love to hear more about that.
311
00:19:00,518 --> 00:19:05,043
Yeah, I honestly think that the ability to
withstand some discomfort and challenge is
312
00:19:05,043 --> 00:19:08,567
what makes it sacred and what adds to the
sanctity, right?
313
00:19:08,567 --> 00:19:13,312
So I think in sisterhood, it is one of
those places where we can kind of practice
314
00:19:13,312 --> 00:19:16,896
being the more prickly, what I call
prickly versions of ourselves, right?
315
00:19:16,896 --> 00:19:18,614
So those parts of ourselves that
316
00:19:18,614 --> 00:19:22,516
We don't even want to admit the parts that
we know we can be a little clingy or we
317
00:19:22,516 --> 00:19:24,417
can be a little annoying or whatever.
318
00:19:24,417 --> 00:19:27,498
Like our relationships with other black
women are often where we can kind of
319
00:19:27,498 --> 00:19:31,641
practice what that behavior feels like to
other people and then to maybe get some
320
00:19:31,641 --> 00:19:35,103
feedback about, hey, that's kind of
annoying when you do that, but that
321
00:19:35,103 --> 00:19:37,944
doesn't mean I don't love you still,
right?
322
00:19:37,944 --> 00:19:42,607
And so I think that being able to kind of
be all of who we are in relationships with
323
00:19:42,607 --> 00:19:46,749
other sisters is what really allows for
that sacredness, right?
324
00:19:48,094 --> 00:19:54,138
I can be all of who I am and I may
aggravate people, I may annoy people, they
325
00:19:54,138 --> 00:19:57,281
may even be mad at me, but that doesn't
mean they don't love me.
326
00:19:57,281 --> 00:20:01,124
And so I think that it's a good sign when
there's conflict, right?
327
00:20:01,124 --> 00:20:05,107
That means that people are invested enough
to disagree with you, right?
328
00:20:05,107 --> 00:20:09,110
If it is only a situation where you're
always agreeing and everything is hunky
329
00:20:09,110 --> 00:20:13,213
dory, so to speak, then is there really
space for growth in that kind of a
330
00:20:13,213 --> 00:20:14,333
relationship?
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00:20:16,923 --> 00:20:25,926
That's so powerful because I think
wholeness is an essential part for me of
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00:20:25,926 --> 00:20:27,126
liberation.
333
00:20:27,486 --> 00:20:34,989
It's too often that black women find our
lives fragmented into either our roles,
334
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like a wife, mom, professional, whatever.
335
00:20:39,990 --> 00:20:41,170
But also...
336
00:20:41,359 --> 00:20:47,304
Just the things that impact the,
patriarchy, for example, damages us as
337
00:20:47,304 --> 00:20:48,184
women.
338
00:20:48,424 --> 00:20:53,569
White supremacy damages us as black
people.
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00:20:53,569 --> 00:21:01,055
These things that show up, and it's really
difficult to shoulder the burden of it, or
340
00:21:01,055 --> 00:21:04,558
to thrive through it if you aren't whole.
341
00:21:05,579 --> 00:21:10,262
And so the idea of us bringing our
wholeness to each other.
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00:21:10,967 --> 00:21:14,089
I think that's another one of the elements
of the sacredness.
343
00:21:14,089 --> 00:21:22,194
And I do love how the book, Sisterhood
Heals, advocates for us to be made whole
344
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through one another.
345
00:21:23,935 --> 00:21:28,738
And you have this beautiful, I think it's
a line from Gwendolyn Brooks, and as she
346
00:21:28,738 --> 00:21:34,301
talks about we are each other's harvest,
we are each other's business, we are each
347
00:21:34,301 --> 00:21:37,182
other's magnitude and bond.
348
00:21:37,607 --> 00:21:39,367
Y'all read y'all some Gwendolyn Brooks.
349
00:21:39,367 --> 00:21:40,807
She's one of my favorites.
350
00:21:40,807 --> 00:21:41,848
Read Maude Martha.
351
00:21:41,848 --> 00:21:42,848
I'll put a link in the chat.
352
00:21:42,848 --> 00:21:43,728
It's a novella.
353
00:21:43,728 --> 00:21:44,489
You gotta read it.
354
00:21:44,489 --> 00:21:45,849
It's like her only novella.
355
00:21:45,849 --> 00:21:46,749
She wanted to pull it.
356
00:21:46,749 --> 00:21:49,170
Anyway, back to track.
357
00:21:49,630 --> 00:21:55,472
Can you talk about, can you tell us a bit
about what it means to be each other's
358
00:21:55,472 --> 00:21:56,692
magnitude?
359
00:21:56,692 --> 00:21:59,893
Like that, you know, we are each other's
burden and magnitude.
360
00:21:59,893 --> 00:22:04,914
There was something about the gravity of
magnitude as a word there that I think
361
00:22:04,914 --> 00:22:06,214
your book.
362
00:22:06,687 --> 00:22:08,409
really reflects.
363
00:22:08,409 --> 00:22:10,551
It reflects a magnitude.
364
00:22:10,631 --> 00:22:14,977
Can you share a little bit about what you
think that quote means and why you used it
365
00:22:14,977 --> 00:22:16,858
to start that section of the work?
366
00:22:17,646 --> 00:22:17,906
Mm-hmm.
367
00:22:17,906 --> 00:22:19,567
Well, one, I just love that quote.
368
00:22:19,567 --> 00:22:21,708
That is also one of my favorites.
369
00:22:21,989 --> 00:22:23,450
And I think it's so true, right?
370
00:22:23,450 --> 00:22:28,213
Like, I think that there is no denying,
like, the power that happens when Black
371
00:22:28,213 --> 00:22:29,894
women come together.
372
00:22:29,894 --> 00:22:34,958
And so this idea that we kind of need to
operate in silos and like, OK, you do your
373
00:22:34,958 --> 00:22:36,939
stuff over there and I do my stuff over
here.
374
00:22:36,939 --> 00:22:40,161
Like, we don't get anywhere further.
375
00:22:40,210 --> 00:22:44,312
if we are not actually invested in each
other's health, each other's wellness,
376
00:22:44,312 --> 00:22:48,354
each other's lives, and we know that we go
further together.
377
00:22:48,354 --> 00:22:52,317
And so this idea that we need to be
separate and not actually kind of
378
00:22:52,317 --> 00:22:56,159
involving ourselves with each other, I
think is not accurate.
379
00:22:56,279 --> 00:22:59,521
And we know that is not historically how
we have survived, right?
380
00:22:59,521 --> 00:23:03,864
There is a reason there is such a rich
history of black women's relationships
381
00:23:03,864 --> 00:23:05,004
with one another.
382
00:23:05,004 --> 00:23:07,138
And I don't think that if it's not broke,
383
00:23:07,138 --> 00:23:08,638
then we don't need to fix it, right?
384
00:23:08,638 --> 00:23:13,559
And so how can we continue with this rich
history of really being able to show up
385
00:23:13,559 --> 00:23:19,781
with one another, show up for one another,
especially again, in light of all these
386
00:23:19,781 --> 00:23:22,762
systems that are not actually working in
our favors, right?
387
00:23:22,762 --> 00:23:28,664
Like there is just so much work left to be
done, so much care that needs to be given.
388
00:23:28,664 --> 00:23:32,865
And I think that we are the only ones in a
lot of ways who are equipped to be able to
389
00:23:32,865 --> 00:23:34,945
do that with and for one another.
390
00:23:36,951 --> 00:23:43,452
And I think in thinking about some of the
responsibilities, I wonder if we could
391
00:23:43,452 --> 00:23:47,134
talk a little bit about some of those, the
challenges.
392
00:23:47,134 --> 00:23:53,455
And I think part of it is you do such a
beautiful job talking about our cultural
393
00:23:53,455 --> 00:24:01,498
conditioning, the ways that black women
are, many of us have, I speak for myself,
394
00:24:01,718 --> 00:24:03,818
a certain type of loyalty.
395
00:24:04,323 --> 00:24:08,506
a certain type of belief that we don't
want to do anything because of our
396
00:24:08,506 --> 00:24:10,808
corporate identity, the group identity.
397
00:24:10,808 --> 00:24:14,770
I think you used the word for it that I
don't think I ever knew before that talk
398
00:24:14,770 --> 00:24:19,894
about how black women, or black people in
general don't want to make the race look
399
00:24:19,894 --> 00:24:20,394
bad.
400
00:24:20,394 --> 00:24:24,197
Or, like if one person does something
good, it's like, oh, good for that one
401
00:24:24,197 --> 00:24:24,578
person.
402
00:24:24,578 --> 00:24:27,840
But if one of us does something bad, it's
all of us.
403
00:24:28,500 --> 00:24:31,602
And so I'm wondering like how...
404
00:24:32,251 --> 00:24:41,335
we get past that toward the healing to be
able to say, as you said, this is
405
00:24:41,735 --> 00:24:46,078
difficult or this is painful, or when we
feel disappointed, when we feel
406
00:24:46,078 --> 00:24:52,101
disappointed in our sisters, when we feel
like you're not someone who's interested
407
00:24:52,101 --> 00:24:55,502
in community, you think of community as a
commodity.
408
00:24:55,675 --> 00:25:00,577
And now, you had that wonderful story
about that poor woman who had really loved
409
00:25:00,577 --> 00:25:04,660
this woman, this sister, and admired her
work, and just had some questions about
410
00:25:04,660 --> 00:25:08,722
her 9999 program that she was selling.
411
00:25:08,722 --> 00:25:12,884
And the lady went off on her and then took
her post as an example.
412
00:25:12,884 --> 00:25:16,387
And this why y'all ain't going to never
make no money, because you don't want to
413
00:25:16,387 --> 00:25:17,287
pay nothing.
414
00:25:17,287 --> 00:25:22,630
You know, like, OK, girl, now I'm really
glad I paused on that.
415
00:25:22,630 --> 00:25:22,773
But.
416
00:25:22,773 --> 00:25:23,413
ha ha.
417
00:25:23,443 --> 00:25:27,727
about how do we handle our disappointments
or even being very frustrated at the
418
00:25:27,727 --> 00:25:35,476
honeypot lady when she changed the formula
for the wash or whatever, these kinds of
419
00:25:35,476 --> 00:25:40,822
things that we invest so much and then
sometimes we get disappointed.
420
00:25:40,822 --> 00:25:45,486
How do you advise us to kind of get to go
through that or to manage that?
421
00:25:46,015 --> 00:25:51,299
Yeah, so I think we have to first be okay
with honoring the disappointment, right?
422
00:25:51,299 --> 00:25:55,063
Because I think what often happens is that
we feel these feelings that feel shameful,
423
00:25:55,063 --> 00:25:55,263
right?
424
00:25:55,263 --> 00:25:58,706
Like, oh, I shouldn't feel that way about
another black woman, but it's okay.
425
00:25:58,706 --> 00:26:01,328
Like, feelings are just information,
right?
426
00:26:01,328 --> 00:26:03,610
So it's okay to feel however you're
feeling.
427
00:26:03,610 --> 00:26:07,333
What really is the issue, though, is then
what do you do with those feelings, right?
428
00:26:07,333 --> 00:26:11,176
So we can allow for space to be
disappointed and to check in with
429
00:26:11,176 --> 00:26:11,777
ourselves.
430
00:26:11,777 --> 00:26:12,746
I think about...
431
00:26:12,746 --> 00:26:15,147
what's actually coming up for me in this
moment, right?
432
00:26:15,147 --> 00:26:19,930
Because while it looks like it is about
the honeypot challenge or changing the
433
00:26:19,930 --> 00:26:24,372
formula, what is, if you dig a little
deeper, we're not really still talking
434
00:26:24,372 --> 00:26:26,053
about a cleaner.
435
00:26:26,053 --> 00:26:31,317
Now we're talking about a sense of
betrayal or a sense of being abandoned or
436
00:26:31,317 --> 00:26:32,437
left behind, right?
437
00:26:32,437 --> 00:26:33,137
Like...
438
00:26:33,390 --> 00:26:37,854
When we see these kinds of reactions that
are disproportionate to the thing that has
439
00:26:37,854 --> 00:26:41,697
happened, usually there's an indication
that something else is going on.
440
00:26:41,697 --> 00:26:46,321
And I think we can only get to that if we
are quiet and still and actually sit down
441
00:26:46,321 --> 00:26:49,704
with ourselves to say, why am I
disappointed here?
442
00:26:49,704 --> 00:26:51,366
And then what can I do about it, right?
443
00:26:51,366 --> 00:26:56,690
So I typically think that like social
media posts and like going public with
444
00:26:56,690 --> 00:27:00,513
these kinds of things are typically not at
least the first response.
445
00:27:00,594 --> 00:27:03,897
Because you probably have not sat down
with yourself long enough to kind of work
446
00:27:03,897 --> 00:27:07,941
through whatever is happening But going to
your trusted group chat or talking with a
447
00:27:07,941 --> 00:27:12,186
therapist about it about what is coming up
for you can actually help you To kind of
448
00:27:12,186 --> 00:27:17,111
figure out okay What needs to be happening
here and I think on the other side if you
449
00:27:17,111 --> 00:27:22,056
are somebody who has seen community as a
commodity I think you also need to check
450
00:27:22,056 --> 00:27:24,182
yourself to kind of think about
451
00:27:24,182 --> 00:27:29,565
how you are weaponizing this thing that we
know black women readily and loyally kind
452
00:27:29,565 --> 00:27:33,308
of give, right, like we will ride into the
wheels fall off for a black woman's
453
00:27:33,308 --> 00:27:34,049
business.
454
00:27:34,049 --> 00:27:38,232
But does that mean then as the business
owner, you get to discard this community
455
00:27:38,232 --> 00:27:40,413
when they are of no use to you anymore,
right?
456
00:27:40,413 --> 00:27:45,517
Like I think as a black woman who is
building a business that is like catering
457
00:27:45,517 --> 00:27:49,380
to black women, you do have a different
code of ethics.
458
00:27:49,380 --> 00:27:51,446
I think that you just do because...
459
00:27:51,446 --> 00:27:56,388
You can't want to use community when it is
in your advantage and then want to just,
460
00:27:56,388 --> 00:27:59,909
you know, kind of discard the community
when they try to hold you accountable.
461
00:27:59,909 --> 00:28:01,490
It's like, you can't have both.
462
00:28:01,490 --> 00:28:04,171
So either make a product that everybody
can use.
463
00:28:04,171 --> 00:28:09,013
And if the black girls get on, then fine,
but don't use us as a way to kind of build
464
00:28:09,013 --> 00:28:12,194
your business and then say like, okay,
I've made my millions now.
465
00:28:12,194 --> 00:28:13,494
Like I'm off to the next thing.
466
00:28:13,494 --> 00:28:18,016
Like I think you do have a different level
of responsibility when you are building a
467
00:28:18,016 --> 00:28:21,477
business that caters specifically to black
people.
468
00:28:23,683 --> 00:28:29,985
I could not agree more because as you
said, that we have a certain type of, we
469
00:28:29,985 --> 00:28:33,866
have a really strong loyalty, especially
to brand and products.
470
00:28:33,866 --> 00:28:38,087
I was talking to my sister about this and
it's like, we use Tide because my mama
471
00:28:38,087 --> 00:28:39,427
used Tide.
472
00:28:39,427 --> 00:28:40,188
That's what we use.
473
00:28:40,188 --> 00:28:44,869
And then she, Lord, then she switched to
Gain and it was a bit of a crisis.
474
00:28:44,869 --> 00:28:47,667
And I was like, well, I guess now we use
Gain?
475
00:28:47,667 --> 00:28:48,953
use game now.
476
00:28:50,643 --> 00:28:55,446
Legit, we all, me and my sisters all use
game because mama started using game.
477
00:28:55,446 --> 00:28:58,407
And clearly, I mean, who's not gonna do
what she's doing?
478
00:28:58,407 --> 00:28:59,388
Like what?
479
00:28:59,408 --> 00:29:02,450
So it was, I think that you're so right
about that.
480
00:29:02,450 --> 00:29:05,912
I wanted to pivot to talk a bit about
creative liberation.
481
00:29:05,912 --> 00:29:09,794
And this brings us back to some of the
sewing and crafts elements.
482
00:29:09,794 --> 00:29:12,316
And as quiet as it's kept, you did sew
something.
483
00:29:12,316 --> 00:29:13,857
You have sewn.
484
00:29:13,877 --> 00:29:16,558
I'd love to know more if you have a
sewing.
485
00:29:16,751 --> 00:29:18,071
I would love to know Dr.
486
00:29:18,071 --> 00:29:19,431
Joy's sewing story.
487
00:29:19,431 --> 00:29:23,792
This is, I'm sure what everybody's really
excited for is yes, she wrote this really
488
00:29:23,792 --> 00:29:27,674
great book, it's best seller, it's
amazing, it'll change your life, but do
489
00:29:27,674 --> 00:29:29,034
you sew though?
490
00:29:29,254 --> 00:29:30,674
That's what they're gonna be asking.
491
00:29:30,674 --> 00:29:33,475
So I did vet her beforehand, friends.
492
00:29:33,475 --> 00:29:36,216
She did make a skirt in middle school or a
tote bag or something.
493
00:29:36,216 --> 00:29:38,136
So she's got some bona fides.
494
00:29:38,837 --> 00:29:43,318
But tell us about your sewing story such
as it is.
495
00:29:43,318 --> 00:29:45,631
You're among friends, it's a safe space.
496
00:29:45,631 --> 00:29:49,053
We tapped into this when you were a guest
on Therapy for Black Girls, but your story
497
00:29:49,053 --> 00:29:52,074
really reminded me of taking home
economics in high school.
498
00:29:52,074 --> 00:29:56,257
So in ninth grade, we had home economics
and one of the units was sewing.
499
00:29:56,257 --> 00:30:00,519
And so we made this pair of boxer shorts
that I think probably fell apart, you
500
00:30:00,519 --> 00:30:02,480
know, within like three washes.
501
00:30:02,480 --> 00:30:05,438
But it was enough for me to be able to
like...
502
00:30:05,438 --> 00:30:09,779
stitch enough so that I remember my dad
had a hole in a t-shirt or whatever and I
503
00:30:09,779 --> 00:30:14,540
stitched it up with like green thread on a
white t-shirt which was hilarious.
504
00:30:14,540 --> 00:30:19,542
But one of my fondest memories of sewing
is not necessarily my own, it is my
505
00:30:19,542 --> 00:30:20,862
grandmother's.
506
00:30:21,242 --> 00:30:26,123
So I remember, so I'm from Louisiana, I
talk about that all throughout the book,
507
00:30:26,223 --> 00:30:30,885
and my the men in my family are
historically welders.
508
00:30:30,905 --> 00:30:33,905
And so you know I remember many nights
509
00:30:33,918 --> 00:30:40,020
Yeah, my grandmother like up, patching up
my uncle's jeans, because like, you know,
510
00:30:40,020 --> 00:30:42,681
they had been on the ship or whatever and
had gotten a hole in the jeans.
511
00:30:42,681 --> 00:30:46,663
And so she would always be doing all this
stitching and patching up jeans.
512
00:30:46,663 --> 00:30:50,145
And so I do come from a family of people
who have done some sewing.
513
00:30:50,145 --> 00:30:56,187
And I remember my mom made me my favorite
Halloween costume, maybe in like third or
514
00:30:56,187 --> 00:31:01,829
fourth grade, it was a Raggedy Ann costume
that I loved so, so much.
515
00:31:02,218 --> 00:31:07,426
Yeah, so I come from a family of so is,
but I have not necessarily like gotten
516
00:31:07,426 --> 00:31:11,432
back into that, but I do enough to be able
to like put a button back on my kids
517
00:31:11,432 --> 00:31:14,035
jacket or, you know, something like that.
518
00:31:15,291 --> 00:31:15,731
That's great.
519
00:31:15,731 --> 00:31:16,912
Because I hate putting buttons.
520
00:31:16,912 --> 00:31:18,874
My kids be buttonless because I hate that.
521
00:31:18,874 --> 00:31:20,815
I'm like, oh, really?
522
00:31:20,815 --> 00:31:22,877
It's so boring.
523
00:31:23,998 --> 00:31:24,999
Mm hmm.
524
00:31:24,999 --> 00:31:26,921
I too bad you don't live closer friend.
525
00:31:26,921 --> 00:31:27,881
Too bad.
526
00:31:27,881 --> 00:31:28,522
I'm like, you know what?
527
00:31:28,522 --> 00:31:31,504
Right over the doctor, Joy, she loved
putting buttons on stuff.
528
00:31:33,226 --> 00:31:33,987
Absolutely.
529
00:31:33,987 --> 00:31:34,347
Yes.
530
00:31:34,347 --> 00:31:36,849
My poor spouse, they got to go out and get
there.
531
00:31:36,849 --> 00:31:38,511
I'm like, oh, these pants need to be
hemmed.
532
00:31:38,511 --> 00:31:39,311
I'm like, you know what?
533
00:31:39,311 --> 00:31:40,212
Cleaners is only $12.
534
00:31:40,212 --> 00:31:41,333
You got $12.
535
00:31:41,333 --> 00:31:42,994
I will absolutely.
536
00:31:43,119 --> 00:31:44,259
And they'll do it for you.
537
00:31:44,259 --> 00:31:46,160
I certainly don't want to.
538
00:31:47,040 --> 00:31:53,283
So, but I, one of the things I love about
it is that the, the act of sewing is one
539
00:31:53,283 --> 00:31:58,505
thing that I'm arguing is as Audrey Lord
talks about in her, you've mentioned this
540
00:31:58,505 --> 00:32:02,246
as well, that the master's tools will
never dismantle the master's house.
541
00:32:02,727 --> 00:32:07,969
And so I've developed this idea that
sewing is an example of something that is
542
00:32:07,969 --> 00:32:10,830
antithetical to master's tools.
543
00:32:10,830 --> 00:32:12,667
Anything can be co-opted.
544
00:32:12,667 --> 00:32:18,850
but the needle and thread has been
consigned to a realm of service that the
545
00:32:18,850 --> 00:32:21,791
master, quote unquote, doesn't deploy.
546
00:32:21,992 --> 00:32:25,454
He might control it, but doesn't do it
themselves.
547
00:32:25,454 --> 00:32:33,158
And so it feels like a liberatory act to
just, to put, almost like putting pen to
548
00:32:33,158 --> 00:32:36,860
paper, you know, to kind of to write
something, to express something.
549
00:32:36,860 --> 00:32:41,147
I feel that way about needle and thread
and fabric and, you know,
550
00:32:41,147 --> 00:32:46,091
creating something that was not there
before, did not exist before I made it,
551
00:32:46,091 --> 00:32:46,911
you know?
552
00:32:46,911 --> 00:32:52,716
And so there's something I think
inherently healing in some ways about
553
00:32:52,716 --> 00:32:53,036
sewing.
554
00:32:53,036 --> 00:32:55,818
And you see this a lot in the sewing
community.
555
00:32:55,818 --> 00:33:00,082
There are t-shirts and slogans and sewing
is my therapy.
556
00:33:00,082 --> 00:33:03,064
And I'm like, whoa, that is so
inappropriate.
557
00:33:03,765 --> 00:33:05,246
Let us, let's say.
558
00:33:06,299 --> 00:33:07,259
But really, Dr.
559
00:33:07,259 --> 00:33:10,801
Joy, and I guess one of the things I might
ask is about when you talk about therapy
560
00:33:10,801 --> 00:33:14,623
for black girls, it really puts therapy
right up front, you know?
561
00:33:14,623 --> 00:33:19,406
And there has been in the past a historic
reluctance among some black communities,
562
00:33:19,406 --> 00:33:22,748
I'm not going to say all black, but some
black communities, especially some
563
00:33:22,748 --> 00:33:29,512
religious ones who have been kind of, no,
therapy is not something we need or would
564
00:33:29,512 --> 00:33:30,672
do or whatever.
565
00:33:30,672 --> 00:33:34,894
And you've done a powerful job dismantling
that myth.
566
00:33:35,311 --> 00:33:36,751
with this project.
567
00:33:36,811 --> 00:33:42,734
Can you talk a bit about the ways that we
might use creative expression, use art,
568
00:33:42,775 --> 00:33:48,158
use drawing, use piano, use music, use the
things that we do that might not bring us
569
00:33:48,158 --> 00:33:51,059
money, but they bring us pleasure.
570
00:33:51,239 --> 00:33:55,962
How does that serve a therapeutic function
without being like, this is the only thing
571
00:33:55,962 --> 00:33:57,602
I'm going to do to heal my mental health?
572
00:33:58,026 --> 00:33:59,046
Right, right.
573
00:33:59,046 --> 00:34:01,467
Yeah, I love those t-shirts and slogans,
right?
574
00:34:01,467 --> 00:34:05,249
And I often get a good laugh at those
things too, because they are therapeutic,
575
00:34:05,249 --> 00:34:05,429
right?
576
00:34:05,429 --> 00:34:08,530
Like sewing can be therapeutic, running
can be therapeutic, but it is not
577
00:34:08,530 --> 00:34:10,832
necessarily the same thing as therapy,
right?
578
00:34:10,832 --> 00:34:14,613
It's not replacing a relationship with a
licensed mental health professional where
579
00:34:14,613 --> 00:34:17,435
you are talking about things, unpacking
all of those things.
580
00:34:17,435 --> 00:34:19,035
But it is still important.
581
00:34:19,035 --> 00:34:23,397
And to your earlier point, Lisa, you know,
there has been a reluctance to embrace,
582
00:34:23,678 --> 00:34:25,338
like mental health and therapy.
583
00:34:25,338 --> 00:34:26,579
And rightfully so, right?
584
00:34:26,579 --> 00:34:28,339
Like we cannot deny.
585
00:34:28,800 --> 00:34:34,005
the white supremacy and like the
historical functions of our field.
586
00:34:34,005 --> 00:34:37,908
But I think what has been so important to
me and really critical for me to do with
587
00:34:37,908 --> 00:34:42,952
Therapy for Black Girls is to talk about
like how we have come from that history,
588
00:34:42,952 --> 00:34:44,834
but this is still for us, right?
589
00:34:44,834 --> 00:34:48,737
Because we know that even though we
weren't calling people therapists in our
590
00:34:48,737 --> 00:34:53,061
ancestral communities, we know that there
have always been healers in our community,
591
00:34:53,061 --> 00:34:53,261
right?
592
00:34:53,261 --> 00:34:53,954
And so.
593
00:34:53,954 --> 00:34:58,317
therapy in the way that we do it now, is
just, I think, a continuation of the
594
00:34:58,317 --> 00:35:00,139
things that our ancestors started.
595
00:35:00,139 --> 00:35:04,722
So even though it did not start from us,
we know that healing has always been our
596
00:35:04,722 --> 00:35:08,125
birthright and that healers have always
been in our communities.
597
00:35:08,125 --> 00:35:12,048
And so therapy for black girls really has
been, I think, a really cool way to kind
598
00:35:12,048 --> 00:35:14,991
of talk about, okay, there is mental
illness, right?
599
00:35:14,991 --> 00:35:18,234
Like, let's talk about the signs of
depression, the signs of anxiety, you
600
00:35:18,234 --> 00:35:22,237
know, what it's like to take medication,
but let's also talk about all these other
601
00:35:22,237 --> 00:35:23,158
things.
602
00:35:23,158 --> 00:35:25,459
that we can do to actually take care of
our mental health.
603
00:35:25,459 --> 00:35:29,303
Because I think for a long time, people
have only thought about mental health as
604
00:35:29,303 --> 00:35:34,187
like the avoidance of illness, as opposed
to let's pay attention to our sleep
605
00:35:34,187 --> 00:35:37,710
hygiene, right, and like how does sleep
impact our mental health?
606
00:35:37,710 --> 00:35:42,014
Let's talk about like movement and how,
you know, our endorphins, you know, get
607
00:35:42,014 --> 00:35:45,236
through the roof when we go for a nice
long walk, or what does it mean to be in
608
00:35:45,236 --> 00:35:49,540
community and to have close friendship
relationships and how that's also a really
609
00:35:49,540 --> 00:35:51,586
good thing to buffer us from stress.
610
00:35:51,586 --> 00:35:54,230
So there are all these different things
that I think that are really, really
611
00:35:54,230 --> 00:35:55,993
critical to our mental health.
612
00:35:55,993 --> 00:35:59,158
And that's really what therapy for black
girls has been about is to be able to kind
613
00:35:59,158 --> 00:36:03,244
of explore all of those things that we
don't necessarily think about when we
614
00:36:03,244 --> 00:36:04,646
think about mental health.
615
00:36:06,211 --> 00:36:11,733
And I really appreciate the way that you
think about health and wellness, that it
616
00:36:11,733 --> 00:36:15,314
doesn't, you know, it doesn't have to be,
we don't have to think about it in an
617
00:36:15,314 --> 00:36:19,556
extreme, like, Oh, someone's had a break
or you know, something like that, that
618
00:36:19,556 --> 00:36:25,118
it's just, it can, that we deserve that
healing is all wholeness and wellness.
619
00:36:25,118 --> 00:36:29,340
All of these things are things that are,
that belong to us by right.
620
00:36:29,440 --> 00:36:34,422
Another thing that's so wonderful about
the book in this context is you are
621
00:36:34,422 --> 00:36:35,802
creating.
622
00:36:36,011 --> 00:36:43,375
a practice in the book itself that will
allow, I think, future clinicians as well
623
00:36:43,375 --> 00:36:47,257
as just readers like myself, it is
equipping them as well.
624
00:36:47,257 --> 00:36:53,561
You have built by the ways that you cite
other black women throughout this book,
625
00:36:53,561 --> 00:37:01,245
you dropping Patricia Hill Collins and
Evelyn Higginbotham and all of these
626
00:37:01,245 --> 00:37:04,146
historians, and you are creating
627
00:37:04,427 --> 00:37:10,329
And as we have in ourselves, you are
creating that which should have been there
628
00:37:10,329 --> 00:37:14,891
for us, but never was because we weren't
seen.
629
00:37:15,411 --> 00:37:21,473
And yet again, you are proving, just like
you do with when you look at insecure, you
630
00:37:21,473 --> 00:37:26,796
are proving that we have already been
there in these fields of health and
631
00:37:26,796 --> 00:37:29,016
wellness and psychology.
632
00:37:29,016 --> 00:37:34,358
And we have contributions that are utterly
unique and necessary.
633
00:37:34,715 --> 00:37:40,319
that allow us to, that allow us to build
what we need.
634
00:37:40,519 --> 00:37:47,104
And you have done that so, just so
beautifully throughout this book.
635
00:37:47,305 --> 00:37:50,327
Were there any parts of it, of the writing
process?
636
00:37:50,327 --> 00:37:53,750
I'd love to hear more about that as
someone who is finished starting a book
637
00:37:53,750 --> 00:37:54,650
right now.
638
00:37:55,712 --> 00:38:00,415
That, what are some of the parts that were
challenging for you?
639
00:38:00,415 --> 00:38:04,571
Did you ever get to, so you seem to have
had an already really robust outline.
640
00:38:04,571 --> 00:38:07,592
because you had this event that was going
to happen.
641
00:38:07,592 --> 00:38:12,033
So you were able to kind of have that be
like a scaffold and build things around
642
00:38:12,033 --> 00:38:12,614
it.
643
00:38:12,614 --> 00:38:16,655
But when it came down to put pen to paper
or to sit in front of the laptop or
644
00:38:16,655 --> 00:38:22,238
however you write, was there any
challenges or things that came easier,
645
00:38:22,238 --> 00:38:24,898
things that you kind of had to sit with a
little longer?
646
00:38:25,518 --> 00:38:31,520
Hmm, you know, honestly Lisa, the whole
process was really difficult just because
647
00:38:31,520 --> 00:38:32,981
it was a new thing, right?
648
00:38:32,981 --> 00:38:37,983
Like I kept trying to equate it to writing
my dissertation, which was the only
649
00:38:37,983 --> 00:38:42,124
framework I had for like writing something
of this magnitude.
650
00:38:42,124 --> 00:38:45,726
And it clearly is very different from a
dissertation because your dissertation
651
00:38:45,726 --> 00:38:49,487
isn't necessarily meant to be like
entertaining and like enjoyable.
652
00:38:49,487 --> 00:38:51,568
It's like, it's research, right?
653
00:38:51,768 --> 00:38:52,808
Yeah.
654
00:38:53,469 --> 00:38:53,891
And so.
655
00:38:53,891 --> 00:38:54,473
that.
656
00:38:54,473 --> 00:38:54,982
Yeah.
657
00:38:54,982 --> 00:38:58,484
Exactly, the people on your committee and
maybe your mom and them like, you know, a
658
00:38:58,484 --> 00:38:59,904
grand total of seven.
659
00:39:01,205 --> 00:39:06,128
Yeah.
660
00:39:06,128 --> 00:39:10,651
Yeah, so it was really a difficult process
because I was trying to do something very
661
00:39:10,651 --> 00:39:11,511
new.
662
00:39:11,611 --> 00:39:15,426
Um, and I also am somebody who like
663
00:39:15,426 --> 00:39:18,688
I'm not super flowery in my language.
664
00:39:18,688 --> 00:39:22,352
And I think a lot of that is like being
trained as a psychologist to like write a
665
00:39:22,352 --> 00:39:24,754
certain way and like, okay, these are the
facts.
666
00:39:24,754 --> 00:39:27,757
Like you don't need to add too much like
interpretation.
667
00:39:27,757 --> 00:39:31,280
And so it was really hard for me to kind
of make a book that like, I feel like
668
00:39:31,280 --> 00:39:35,524
people would really get in like the
storytelling and you know, that kind of
669
00:39:35,524 --> 00:39:35,724
thing.
670
00:39:35,724 --> 00:39:39,547
So I actually worked with a writer, Tracy
Louis Giggott, Tracy Michelle Louis
671
00:39:39,547 --> 00:39:42,190
Giggott, who really helped me to kind of
like.
672
00:39:42,190 --> 00:39:45,030
pull the story pieces out of it, right?
673
00:39:45,150 --> 00:39:48,451
To make it something that people would
actually enjoy reading.
674
00:39:48,791 --> 00:39:52,612
So I think that the storytelling piece was
a little more difficult for me.
675
00:39:52,612 --> 00:39:58,294
And I also was really worried Lisa as a
podcaster, if my voice would translate on
676
00:39:58,294 --> 00:39:59,454
the page.
677
00:39:59,454 --> 00:40:03,395
So, you know, I think that people have an
expectation of like who Dr.
678
00:40:03,395 --> 00:40:07,637
Joy is when they hear me on the mic, or
like if I'm doing a speaking engagement,
679
00:40:07,637 --> 00:40:07,817
right?
680
00:40:07,817 --> 00:40:10,677
Like I think that there is a warmth that I
convey.
681
00:40:10,698 --> 00:40:14,840
And I was really worried that would not
translate on the page.
682
00:40:14,840 --> 00:40:18,702
And so I have been, it is always such a
pleasure to get feedback from readers that
683
00:40:18,702 --> 00:40:21,043
they do feel like it translated.
684
00:40:21,043 --> 00:40:25,845
Cause that probably was my biggest worry
was that like, I wouldn't get the tone
685
00:40:25,845 --> 00:40:26,085
right.
686
00:40:26,085 --> 00:40:29,327
And like it would feel too scholarly or
people would be like, oh, this doesn't
687
00:40:29,327 --> 00:40:29,967
sound like Dr.
688
00:40:29,967 --> 00:40:30,808
Joy.
689
00:40:31,068 --> 00:40:34,469
So I'm really glad to hear that it did
translate in that way.
690
00:40:35,999 --> 00:40:38,020
It absolutely did.
691
00:40:38,020 --> 00:40:42,402
And there's also a built in cheat code,
which is listening to the audio version.
692
00:40:42,402 --> 00:40:46,725
Because when I tell, when I tell y'all, I
believe that Dr.
693
00:40:46,725 --> 00:40:51,648
Joy Harden Bradford sat down one day and
read me this book over the course of two
694
00:40:51,648 --> 00:40:56,571
months, because it's, it's really, it's
cause you know, we have you, you know,
695
00:40:56,571 --> 00:41:02,414
you're in our ear on the podcast, you
know, but like to have these, um, to have
696
00:41:02,414 --> 00:41:03,463
you like,
697
00:41:03,463 --> 00:41:07,944
give this long, this, it's a rather, I
think about seven hours worth, I think,
698
00:41:07,944 --> 00:41:09,544
seven hours long.
699
00:41:09,684 --> 00:41:14,325
It really, maybe eight, it's a really,
it's such a gift.
700
00:41:14,345 --> 00:41:19,087
And I, there's a, there's a way in
Audible, which is what I used to do audio
701
00:41:19,087 --> 00:41:23,468
books, that you can make tabs, you can
like make clips, you can tab, tap the
702
00:41:23,468 --> 00:41:28,749
thing and like add a note or tap the clip
and then you can go back and listen to it.
703
00:41:28,749 --> 00:41:33,264
I got about like 40 clips of like things
that I wanna go back and, I'm like,
704
00:41:33,264 --> 00:41:34,506
feature in Audible.
705
00:41:34,506 --> 00:41:37,792
Ha ha ha.
706
00:41:37,792 --> 00:41:38,324
Okay.
707
00:41:38,324 --> 00:41:41,609
it's, it's like, I'm, I'm absolutely going
to show you cause I'm a fan girl.
708
00:41:41,609 --> 00:41:45,676
Cause like it was, I was looking cause you
can go back and look at all your bookmarks
709
00:41:45,676 --> 00:41:50,502
and you can manage your clips and it has
these little, I've got like,
710
00:41:52,543 --> 00:41:55,043
all of these things that it's like, oh
yeah, let me, that's a good one.
711
00:41:55,043 --> 00:41:55,964
I might ask about that.
712
00:41:55,964 --> 00:41:57,664
Like I don't think I ask about any of
them.
713
00:41:57,664 --> 00:41:59,565
I'm going to have to call you on the
phone.
714
00:41:59,565 --> 00:42:06,587
But, um, the, the thing I was, I was
excited about was indeed like, it really
715
00:42:06,587 --> 00:42:12,829
is feeling like we have you with us, you
know, and the warmth, the joy, the, the
716
00:42:12,829 --> 00:42:17,050
happiness in your voice, all of that
translated, I think incredibly well to the
717
00:42:17,050 --> 00:42:19,495
page and the, the
718
00:42:19,495 --> 00:42:23,520
The audio is just such a, another version,
another version of that.
719
00:42:23,520 --> 00:42:27,505
Did you, was the recording process weird
to like, or was it pretty much just like
720
00:42:27,505 --> 00:42:28,702
you do in the podcast?
721
00:42:28,702 --> 00:42:33,003
You know, at least I expected it to be
like, oh, I do this all the time, but it
722
00:42:33,003 --> 00:42:34,304
was very different, right?
723
00:42:34,304 --> 00:42:38,946
Because I'm in a studio by myself, there's
an engineer on the other side of the wall,
724
00:42:38,946 --> 00:42:43,768
and then there's a producer in your ear,
and I think he was in like New York or
725
00:42:43,768 --> 00:42:44,969
somewhere, right?
726
00:42:44,969 --> 00:42:48,290
And so he's saying like, oh, go back and
do this, or let's give that another try,
727
00:42:48,290 --> 00:42:48,490
right?
728
00:42:48,490 --> 00:42:51,791
And so usually, of course, when I'm doing
the podcast, like there's nobody, I mean,
729
00:42:51,791 --> 00:42:54,953
maybe my producers will say like, okay,
let's go ask this question, but they're
730
00:42:54,953 --> 00:42:56,653
not usually in my ear.
731
00:42:57,010 --> 00:43:00,875
And so that was a much more difficult
process than I anticipated, especially
732
00:43:00,875 --> 00:43:03,657
since I talk, you know, kind of for a
living at this point.
733
00:43:04,567 --> 00:43:05,087
Yeah.
734
00:43:05,087 --> 00:43:06,728
Oh, that's, that's amazing.
735
00:43:07,229 --> 00:43:12,034
Let me ask you throughout writing the
book, what did you learn?
736
00:43:12,034 --> 00:43:17,159
Do you have some key learnings that you've
gotten either from finishing the book,
737
00:43:17,159 --> 00:43:21,603
turning it in saying, okay, I released
this now I've done it, or key learnings
738
00:43:21,603 --> 00:43:27,128
from getting feedback from readers and
listeners that has given you, um, that's
739
00:43:27,128 --> 00:43:29,650
giving you something that you really
cherish.
740
00:43:30,050 --> 00:43:31,090
Hmm.
741
00:43:31,090 --> 00:43:34,811
I will say the key feedback or the key
piece of, you know, learning that I've
742
00:43:34,811 --> 00:43:38,172
gotten from finishing the book was that I
can actually do hard things.
743
00:43:38,172 --> 00:43:43,153
You know, because I definitely had some
imposter syndrome stuff kicking in there.
744
00:43:43,153 --> 00:43:48,115
And it's like, you know, there was so many
weeks of my therapy sessions dedicated to
745
00:43:48,115 --> 00:43:51,016
like book writing stuff like I feel like
until I finished.
746
00:43:51,016 --> 00:43:55,557
And then when it was time to market, it
was like a whole new slate of like new
747
00:43:55,557 --> 00:43:57,878
problems to talk about with my therapist.
748
00:43:57,878 --> 00:44:02,880
But I didn't expect so much of my mental
health necessarily to be wrapped up in the
749
00:44:02,880 --> 00:44:07,162
writing process, but I definitely got in
my head about how are people gonna receive
750
00:44:07,162 --> 00:44:09,683
it, and is it gonna translate?
751
00:44:09,784 --> 00:44:13,586
So I think the key piece that I take with
me is that I can do hard things and then
752
00:44:13,586 --> 00:44:16,727
let it go and kinda let it be what it is.
753
00:44:17,207 --> 00:44:21,669
I think from the readers, what I have
learned is that people are expecting more.
754
00:44:21,694 --> 00:44:21,974
Right?
755
00:44:21,974 --> 00:44:24,979
Like people are like, okay, well, this was
great, but when is the next one?
756
00:44:24,979 --> 00:44:26,321
Like, what is, what's happening?
757
00:44:26,321 --> 00:44:29,426
I'm like, oh my God, y'all, I don't know.
758
00:44:29,426 --> 00:44:31,609
I don't know if I got it in me again.
759
00:44:32,421 --> 00:44:36,083
now I got four more sessions, lining up
with therapists, something to talk about.
760
00:44:36,083 --> 00:44:40,025
Now I got to talk about the fear of
failure is one thing, man, fear of success
761
00:44:40,025 --> 00:44:41,485
is quite something else.
762
00:44:41,485 --> 00:44:42,446
Oh my goodness.
763
00:44:42,446 --> 00:44:44,106
That's what we're dealing with now.
764
00:44:46,908 --> 00:44:52,110
I really, I feel like the paint is not yet
dry on this book.
765
00:44:52,110 --> 00:44:52,624
It's like.
766
00:44:52,624 --> 00:44:53,325
Hehehehe
767
00:44:53,791 --> 00:44:56,974
It's like, can I, can I please have just a
teeny bit more time to rest, please?
768
00:44:56,974 --> 00:44:57,394
Please?
769
00:44:57,394 --> 00:45:00,897
Can I get like three more months, just
like a symbolic, just symbolically, let's
770
00:45:00,897 --> 00:45:03,800
have nine months go by before we start
thinking about anything else.
771
00:45:03,800 --> 00:45:05,101
Just symbolically.
772
00:45:06,603 --> 00:45:11,908
I was thinking, it's also really
gratifying to kind of know or warming to
773
00:45:11,908 --> 00:45:17,874
know and daring to know that of course, I
mean, I'm like sitting here like, Jordan,
774
00:45:17,874 --> 00:45:18,867
do you know who you are?
775
00:45:18,867 --> 00:45:19,307
what you mean?
776
00:45:19,307 --> 00:45:20,927
Of course I can do hard things.
777
00:45:20,927 --> 00:45:24,749
I'm like, you did build, you did write a,
you did, you know, go to graduate school
778
00:45:24,749 --> 00:45:29,271
and, you know, wrote a dissertation and
had a practice and then built something
779
00:45:29,271 --> 00:45:30,892
that's incredibly unique.
780
00:45:30,892 --> 00:45:36,494
That is like, it's inevitable, you know,
it's completely new, it's novel.
781
00:45:36,615 --> 00:45:40,676
And I say inevitable because it's unique,
but I think you also want people to be
782
00:45:40,676 --> 00:45:42,057
able to build these kinds of things.
783
00:45:42,057 --> 00:45:45,658
I remember one of your episodes where a
person was working on
784
00:45:45,707 --> 00:45:50,309
um, yoga and did a lot of like yoga events
and they were going to, and it just felt
785
00:45:50,309 --> 00:45:56,271
like you are encouraging us to do hard
things all the time, whether that's called
786
00:45:56,271 --> 00:46:01,013
that friend or maybe don't call that
friend or, you know, you are always
787
00:46:01,013 --> 00:46:03,294
encouraging us to do hard things.
788
00:46:03,294 --> 00:46:09,457
So the idea that you are somehow like,
Hmm, this is hard.
789
00:46:09,457 --> 00:46:13,858
It just, it, it just makes me, it's, for
me, that's like a big takeaway, like,
790
00:46:14,279 --> 00:46:14,399
Dr.
791
00:46:14,399 --> 00:46:15,603
Joy be struggling with stuff?
792
00:46:15,603 --> 00:46:16,344
What?
793
00:46:16,345 --> 00:46:17,969
What you talk, what you say now?
794
00:46:18,030 --> 00:46:18,691
What?
795
00:46:21,950 --> 00:46:22,470
Absolutely.
796
00:46:22,470 --> 00:46:26,533
But you know, Lisa, I think the difference
to me here was that therapy for black
797
00:46:26,533 --> 00:46:29,415
girls kind of was created by accident.
798
00:46:29,415 --> 00:46:34,458
Like I didn't sit down and say, like, I
want a business dedicated to like black
799
00:46:34,458 --> 00:46:35,399
women's mental health.
800
00:46:35,399 --> 00:46:39,221
Like I was kind of already doing that work
and it kind of grew as an extension of
801
00:46:39,221 --> 00:46:39,882
that.
802
00:46:39,882 --> 00:46:44,007
But I think the book was something that
was like, okay, I intentionally pitched
803
00:46:44,007 --> 00:46:44,808
this book.
804
00:46:44,808 --> 00:46:46,991
I said, I'm going to do this thing.
805
00:46:46,991 --> 00:46:50,675
And so it felt like one of the first
things in a very long time that I said
806
00:46:50,675 --> 00:46:53,579
like, okay, I'm going to do this thing and
then you gotta finish it.
807
00:46:53,579 --> 00:46:55,921
So it felt like a very different process
to me.
808
00:46:57,475 --> 00:46:58,875
Yeah, I can understand that.
809
00:46:58,875 --> 00:46:59,736
I can understand that.
810
00:46:59,736 --> 00:47:04,739
I think that looking at your story from a
distance and seeing therapy for black
811
00:47:04,739 --> 00:47:11,283
girls as, you know, a known entity, um, as
something that is already doing thriving
812
00:47:11,283 --> 00:47:15,306
and healing work in the community, it's
kind of, it is also, you get a little
813
00:47:15,306 --> 00:47:15,786
spoiled.
814
00:47:15,786 --> 00:47:18,287
You feel like, Oh, that's always been
here.
815
00:47:18,287 --> 00:47:22,050
You know, it's like, it's, well, it's what
it means to like, what you've done is
816
00:47:22,050 --> 00:47:23,530
build an institution.
817
00:47:23,863 --> 00:47:29,046
You've you've you really, I think you
have, and it really is so robust and
818
00:47:29,046 --> 00:47:30,007
necessary.
819
00:47:30,007 --> 00:47:35,010
And when, like in the chapter, you talk
about sisterhood over systems.
820
00:47:35,010 --> 00:47:44,517
You know, and you have created in therapy
for black girls, the podcast, the book,
821
00:47:44,517 --> 00:47:50,521
the sister circle community, the, you
know, all of these things that you've
822
00:47:50,521 --> 00:47:52,275
already given us such.
823
00:47:52,275 --> 00:47:58,320
powerful gifts and gifts that continue to
equip us, you know, and so it really
824
00:47:58,320 --> 00:48:08,808
becomes I don't know it's a rich
opportunity and a rare gift to talk with
825
00:48:08,808 --> 00:48:17,596
you about your process and that processes
are currently always ongoing and that we
826
00:48:17,596 --> 00:48:19,818
too are in the middle of a process.
827
00:48:19,818 --> 00:48:20,778
We too.
828
00:48:21,031 --> 00:48:25,853
want something and to get there will be a
journey and there will be steps to be
829
00:48:25,853 --> 00:48:26,753
taken.
830
00:48:27,053 --> 00:48:31,876
Like that just, I don't know, I just feel
like that's something that we, you know,
831
00:48:31,876 --> 00:48:35,778
we see the bit we see, I think we
sometimes get too accustomed to a before
832
00:48:35,778 --> 00:48:37,358
and after picture.
833
00:48:37,499 --> 00:48:40,020
You know, it's just the before.
834
00:48:40,020 --> 00:48:46,043
And then in about two seconds, up comes
the after, you know, or before and now.
835
00:48:46,043 --> 00:48:50,224
but all that ugly middle and the
uncertainty and the, oh my gosh, what was
836
00:48:50,224 --> 00:48:51,464
I thinking?
837
00:48:51,464 --> 00:48:53,244
All that's in the middle, you know?
838
00:48:53,244 --> 00:48:58,586
And so I just love how in talking about
your process a bit, you've given us the
839
00:48:58,586 --> 00:49:01,927
chance to think about our own processes.
840
00:49:01,927 --> 00:49:07,648
You close the book with sister acts, with
resources for ways we can encourage our
841
00:49:07,648 --> 00:49:08,569
sisters.
842
00:49:08,569 --> 00:49:11,870
There are some really wonderful tips in
there.
843
00:49:11,870 --> 00:49:15,523
Can you talk about why you thought it was
important to end the book?
844
00:49:15,523 --> 00:49:22,689
with a list of actions for different
things, for different, like this is
845
00:49:22,689 --> 00:49:28,073
connect with, hype them up, connect with
the janitorial and the custodial staff at
846
00:49:28,073 --> 00:49:28,674
work.
847
00:49:28,674 --> 00:49:33,617
For me, something I learned in grad school
is be nice to secretaries.
848
00:49:33,818 --> 00:49:39,363
These things, cash up your girl, send her
a playlist, all these different things.
849
00:49:39,363 --> 00:49:43,326
Why did you think it was important that
when we got to the end of this wonderful
850
00:49:43,326 --> 00:49:44,027
journey,
851
00:49:44,027 --> 00:49:47,698
that we were left with some kind of action
items.
852
00:49:48,326 --> 00:49:48,646
Mm-hmm.
853
00:49:48,646 --> 00:49:51,629
Yeah, because I didn't want it to be a
book that you just read and thought like,
854
00:49:51,629 --> 00:49:52,409
oh, that was cute.
855
00:49:52,409 --> 00:49:54,111
And then you just put it back on your
shelf, right?
856
00:49:54,111 --> 00:49:57,934
Like I wanted it to be something that you
then were moved to act.
857
00:49:57,934 --> 00:49:58,274
Right.
858
00:49:58,274 --> 00:50:00,696
And I think that there's also a ripple
effect, right?
859
00:50:00,696 --> 00:50:04,279
Like you sending your girl a cash app then
means that in a month, she might turn
860
00:50:04,279 --> 00:50:05,680
around and do that for somebody else.
861
00:50:05,680 --> 00:50:06,220
Right.
862
00:50:06,220 --> 00:50:09,623
And so I wanted it to be a way that we
could kind of continue to embody the
863
00:50:09,623 --> 00:50:12,825
spirit of sisterhood in a very tangible
way.
864
00:50:15,463 --> 00:50:15,923
love it.
865
00:50:15,923 --> 00:50:19,864
And I think that it was such a great,
strong thing to end on.
866
00:50:19,864 --> 00:50:22,645
It gave me some ideas for like things to
do.
867
00:50:22,645 --> 00:50:26,366
And also the way that you had so many
different types of examples, like that
868
00:50:26,366 --> 00:50:28,026
people's love languages are different.
869
00:50:28,026 --> 00:50:32,948
Like some person, like a cash app is going
to mean more to somebody than the flowers
870
00:50:32,948 --> 00:50:36,829
from Trader Joe's, you know, like, you
know, it just, I think that was really
871
00:50:36,829 --> 00:50:37,949
very powerful.
872
00:50:37,949 --> 00:50:40,910
I'm going to ask you the last question
that we ask everybody on Stitch Police
873
00:50:40,910 --> 00:50:41,470
Podcast.
874
00:50:41,470 --> 00:50:42,203
And it's this.
875
00:50:42,203 --> 00:50:46,429
The slogan of the Stitch Please podcast is
that we will help you get your stitch
876
00:50:46,429 --> 00:50:47,390
together.
877
00:50:47,711 --> 00:50:48,031
Dr.
878
00:50:48,031 --> 00:50:54,281
Joy Harden Bradford, it is my honor to ask
you, how would you help our audience get
879
00:50:54,281 --> 00:50:55,602
our stitch together?
880
00:50:57,454 --> 00:50:59,655
This feels like such a good question.
881
00:50:59,795 --> 00:51:05,099
I think I would help you to get your
stitch together by encouraging you to lean
882
00:51:05,099 --> 00:51:07,121
on the people in your circle.
883
00:51:07,121 --> 00:51:11,804
And if there is not a circle to do a
little bit more work to get a circle for
884
00:51:11,804 --> 00:51:16,328
yourself, because we were not meant to do
life alone and it is so much better and so
885
00:51:16,328 --> 00:51:19,409
much sweeter with a circle of sisters
around us.
886
00:51:22,007 --> 00:51:24,956
And with that, we are grateful to Dr.
887
00:51:24,956 --> 00:51:25,317
Joy.
888
00:51:25,317 --> 00:51:27,805
Thank you so much for being with us today.
889
00:51:27,805 --> 00:51:29,890
This has been a true delight.
890
00:51:30,426 --> 00:51:31,810
Oh, thank you so much, Lisa.
891
00:51:31,810 --> 00:51:33,253
It was such a pleasure.