- The views and opinions expressed

during this podcast are

those of our guests.

No one person speaks for A.A. as a whole.

- In Alcoholics Anonymous,

we often hear the phrase

"going to any lengths."

We're talking about doing

whatever it takes to stay sober

and carrying the A.A. message

to those that may need it

by any means necessary.

With today's technology, there

are many means available,

but beyond the traditional online spaces

and the meeting rooms, A.A.s

have been going to any lengths

to reach people wherever they are,

however they can be reached.

Because carrying the A.A. message

doesn't belong to buildings,

platforms, or rooms, it belongs to people.

My name is Nathan. I'm an

alcoholic. Welcome to GSO.

From hauling literature

through the Canadian wilderness

to remote communities,

over AM radio waves in the South Pacific,

and cassette tape exchanges,

the ways in which the

A.A. message has been

carried seems endless.

In this episode, we'll be

exploring three examples

of going to any lengths.

The first comes from the 2025

International Convention in

Vancouver, BC, Canada.

This is Roger L., speaking at a Loners

Internationalists panel.

I'll let him tell you more about it.

- Good afternoon. I'm

Roger, grateful alcoholic.

- Roger!

- One of my A.A. heroes is Captain

Jack, who's, um...he's credited

with starting the Loners

Internationalists Meeting.

And you can read about

him in A.A. comes of age.

There's a service piece about the history

of the Loners Internationalists.

I think it's SMF-123.

But I've also heard Captain Jack share

about the Loners Internationalists,

and one of the talks that I heard

was Captain Jack on this stage,

the International Convention

in Denver, Colorado in 1975.

And what he said was on

October the 20th, 1947, he went

to Bill's office near

Lexington Avenue, Bill Wilson,

with orders to the far east.

He had been unemployable and drunk,

but this was his first going back to sea.

He was nervous, he was looking for advice.

And he said, Bill's advice was

that if you're sober, Jack,

you can go anywhere and

you can do anything in the

world and stay sober.

And his second bit of advice

is that letters might help.

And so, with 15 months of

sobriety, Captain Jack,

a Merchant Marine, went out

to sea to be the captain

of a vessel and had his

first sober adventure.

He took some big books.

His wife sent him copies

of the A.A. Grapevine Magazine

whenever mail could catch up.

So the office, the GSO

of that service piece,

credits Captain Jack as the founder

of Loners Internationalists.

In this talk, Jack said it

was the staff who started it.

He said, and I quote, "If

it hadn't been for the GSO,

this group of internationalists

would have died a morning.

I feel sure of that.

I tried to carry it on

for four years, and

then I yelled for help.

And they (the office staff at

the time) came to my rescue."

And as you now know, a round

robin is sent out bimonthly

to about 500.

And that round robin has

evolved to the, the newsletter

that, that Bill talked

about that we write in

and then they put it together

and they send it out.

What does that got to do with me?

I got sober at a, at a young enough age

with not much criminal

record, so I was able

to join the Army and still be qualified.

I was struggling and I, I

decided to do that to get in,

get the GI Bill, get out,

do something with my life,

and I stayed for 30 years instead.

So, within less than two

years of that decision

to join the military, we found

ourselves going to Desert Storm.

I was pretty nervous, and I wrote a letter

to the General Service Office,

and I asked them to just, you

know, I don't know, forward me,

send me The Grapevine, right?

I'm going to this place I don't know.

I don't know how it's

gonna be. I'm scared.

I've never been without A.A. before,

and it's an unknown period

of time, all these unknowns.

And I s- I set off on

a long flight overseas,

sober and with some hope.

So we got there, we went to

a large tent city in Dhahran

and I didn't know what to do.

There was a bulletin board

outside the mess hall,

and I couldn't find any alcoholics.

I didn't know anybody there.

There were a lot of

different units there though,

so there were a lot of

people I didn't know,

and maybe perhaps there'd

be another alcoholic.

So I went and I used this bulletin board,

and I put up a little three by

five card that says, "Friends

of Bill W. meet here every

night at 1900 hours."

Whatever was going on, I stood in front of

that bulletin board with my

big book, carried in a way

that you would recognize it

as a big book if you knew

what the heck a big book was

in front of that bulletin board

with that, just in case you

were looking for the guy,

you would know this was the

guy that put the note up.

And I did that every single

night and nobody came.

But I did it consistently.

I showed up, so I just, I

stayed there and I did that.

So we moved forward, I

got promoted to Sergeant.

So now I'm a leader, and

now I don't have any A.A.,

and I've been away from

A.A. for a really long time.

I did an inventory and I

shared it with a chaplain,

but I gotta tell you that

it was, it was useful,

but it was not the same as the feedback

that you get from another

alcoholic when you share your

defects and they can, they can share their

experience back to you.

Reached a point where I

thought drinking would help.

Like, I was so desperate

and so lonely. I'm a leader.

I can't be intimate with anybody.

I can't share, but here I am, I,

I can't find another alcoholic.

I, I had the desire to drink was back.

I wanted relief from

that loneliness and pain

and being all by myself and

not ... I needed program

and fellowship and I

didn't have fellowship.

I just wanted relief.

I got to that low,

desperate, crying myself

to sleep on my cot in a tent as a leader

who couldn't cry in front of other people,

but just desperate.

And then what happened was really

nothing short of a miracle.

That letter that I wrote to GSO got to

whatever desk was in charge

of this program, the Loners

and Internationalists at the time,

and I got on a mailing list.

And what I started to

get was trickled in mail.

I got a letter from a group in California

that I'd never been to that

had passed a card around

and everybody signed it

and sent it to us, to me, in this case,

and it had all their names

and we're thinking of you

and we love you and we're praying for you.

And then I would get another one.

Then I would get a letter and

I, I would get speaker tapes.

I would get little care packages

with little yellow ribbons

and speaker tapes and A.A. literature.

And at home, in a shoebox,

I today have a handwritten

Xerox copy, photocopy of 150

names and addresses of people, almost all

of which I had never met in my life,

who wrote me and got me through that.

And at one point in one

day, I got 34 pieces

of mail from Alcoholics

Anonymous that I'd never met.

Never met. Now,

when you're pitching mail and

you're picking up the mail

and your peers ask you,

"What the heck is going on with you?

"I don't know an anonymous way

to explain it to them.

So I said, "Well, I have a fan

club." It's fan mail.

And they didn't believe me,

but I didn't know what else to say.

I'm like, you know, "Well, I'm a member

of this Worldwide Fellowship

and you know, we get together

and, you know, we fill

stadiums sometimes." Like,

I just didn't know, but it was beautiful.

It was so, it's exactly what I needed at

that dark, lonely moment.

I'm so grateful for

that kind of experience.

So fast forward w- we returned safely

and I continued my military

career and I went to Belgium

and the world changed.

So at this point, we're using Skype,

we got solid communications.

I can call my sponsor

and the call won't drop like

it's actually gonna work.

I've got email, immediate access.

I, I was able to con- stay

connected in fellowship,

but I'm not saying that

the, this particular

program still has value.

There are still loaners out there.

I mean, when you're in Belgium

and the only English

speaking group you have

and you don't speak

French is 100 miles away,

we became an intimate group.

We loved each other. Like

we've, like all that stuff

that your group complains

about, we didn't c- I mean,

it was a pretty dysfunctional group.

But it was the best home group

I've ever had in my life.

When somebody was dying

and they, they, they

weren't able to get back

to the United States,

somebody in the group said,

"You can come hospice at my house

and we're gonna love you

till we're gone." And,

and every day we'd go over to our house,

hold this lady's hand, not knowing if

this meeting is gonna be

the last meeting, right?

So it was a beautiful group.

And so those kind of things

but what happened was with technology,

there was a different loner experience.

I got the one face-to-face

meeting while I was there,

but the whole time I was

connected through technology and

but I never forgot this loner experience

and I'm so forever grateful

for the General Service,

our General Service Office

that provides this service,

the Meeting Guide and a

bunch of other services

that we sometimes can take for

granted, they're there for us

and they continue to put this

round robin thing together

because Captain Jack needed

to stay sober at sea in 1946.

So thank you for listening

and I'm so grateful.

- Over the years, LIM has

evolved since Roger was receiving

those letters, but the Loners

Internationalists Meeting is

still going strong, and

for more information,

email access@aa.org.

- For more information about A.A.,

please visit our website at aa.org.

- Our next segment is a dramatization

of an article from GSO's free

quarterly newsletter, Box 459,

from Autumn of 1992,

where we meet members

from the Amateur Radio

or HAAM Radio Fellowship.

HAAM is, of course, spelled with two A's.

- H-A-A-M Radio, established in 1953

is an international fellowship

of Alcoholics Anonymous members

who also hold amateur radio licenses.

These HAAMs extend warmth

and friendship to their members

who have difficulty

attending regular meetings.

A.A. shortwave listeners also

are invited to participate.

ARSN8KDW.

- The call letters belong to Henry K.,

who maintains an up-to-date

list of approximately 250 HAAMs

around the US and Canada.

- Our people come and go.

We have an open door policy

and never know who will pop in.

- In the interest of anonymity,

the regular meetings are

called Friends of Bill W.

Moreover, they're more like informal get

togethers than meetings.

- Because the radio

bands are open to anyone,

we don't have a format as such.

One HAAM will ask, "How's your week been?"

Another will answer, "Just terrific

or could have been better." Or, "I went

to a meeting last night and

the subject was gratitude.

It made me realize how good life is."

Then someone else might

share news about a new member

or about an old one who hasn't

been heard from in a while.

- Remembering to preserve the anonymity

of individual members is

hardly a problem since the HAAMs

know each other mainly

by their call letters.

Ask them about A.A. friends

with whom they've networked

for years and chances are they'll speak

of them affectionately as-

- WA2DAX.

- AW3X. - N4CTC.

- If you want first names,

they frequently have

to refer to their listing.

A.A. old timer, Ben L.

- W7FNE.

- Of Klamath Falls,

Oregon is an old ham radio hand as well.

- Because there's great

camaraderie among these people,

it was natural that A.A. members

who were also licensed

hams would get together.

The first attempt to make

contact, I believe, was initiated

by an operator named Lou

of Seaford, Delaware.

- In a letter that appeared

in the June 1953 issue

of the A.A. Grapevine, Lou wrote-

- I have a small homemade

transmitter that costs about $20.

I have spent that much

plenty of times for whiskey

and have contacted fellows 500 miles away.

I will answer all letters

and help however I can.

- A year later in May 1954,

The Grapevine carried a one

paragraph call for the signals

of amateur radio operators who would like

to contact each other via the airwaves.

And in June 1967, it carried an article.

Message by Morse, signed

Anon, but written by Ben.

- I had started a ham radio net in 1964

using Morse Code Recovery

Signals aboard ship

because I was seagoing at the time

and needed to keep in touch

with A.A.s over great

distances from the Indian

Ocean, for instance.

We had a great little

net going for many years,

but as the old timers

died, it gradually faded.

Today, there are only two of

us using Morse code, Jim D.

of Taneytown, Maryland,

and I use it about three

times a week when we have our

one-on-one get togethers.

- One of the few women on

Henry K.'s HAAM list is Lee H.

KB6MXH.

- Of Sunnyvale, California.

- There is a Maryanne

listed for Pennsylvania

and a Sonya for New York,

but I've yet to make

contact with either of

- Them.

Sober in A.A. for 19 years,

Lee became involved in

HAAM in the mid- 80s.

- Joining in our friends of Bill W.

Meetings is like holding

hands across the country

and it feels really good.

Sometimes a strange voice

will ask, "Who's Bill W.?"

We'll usually explain that the name refers

to a 12-step program, though

occasionally someone will kid.

Bill W.? He's George Washington's brother.

- Amateur radio is the

only hobby regulated

by International Treaty.

Amateur bands agreed upon by

most nations are sandwiched in

among the short wave

frequencies assigned to ships,

aircraft, international

broadcast stations,

the armed forces, police, and others.

To operate an amateur station in the US

and Canada, a license is needed.

Beginners are granted a novice

license upon completing a

test that most ham find relatively easy,

and they can work their

way on up to extra class,

which confer some special

frequency privileges.

The coordinator, at the

time of the article,

of the active California

HAAM net was Robert B.

- KJ6IL.

- of Santa Barbara.

- In helping alcoholics,

who check into our meetings

I find that I help myself most of all.

Although non-A.A.s can and,

and do wander into have meetings we do not

violate the traditions.

We are amateurs all and

we're not out to proselytize

or promote A.A. in any way.

I'm in touch with A.A.s all over the world

and I have made some wonderful

friends like Wilf M.

- VY2A of Charlottetown,

Prince Edward Island, Canada.

- Wilf identifies himself

- as ... Always alcoholic.

- As often happens, the two HAAMs decided

to become more than each

other's disembodied voice.

They met when Robert flew

up to Prince Edward Island.

- The HAAM experience has a ripple effect.

I've been involved for about 23 years

and I've enjoyed every moment.

We have a saying here that if

you make an A.A. contact today,

chances are, you won't drink

today or get into trouble.

In my case, that's proved very true.

- Hank K. of Tarpon Springs, Florida.

- N40XO.

- Concurs.

- This is another form of 12 stepping

and it provides a solid support system.

HAAMs carry A.A.'s language

of the heart to the Nth degree

because we use a language

that the untrained

listener cannot understand.

- Hank's referring to radio codes like

- 10-4 over and out

- that stand for various

slogans, some that are specific

to the A.A. community.

- For example, someone's

not going to a meeting,

I might toss in a concerned 028.

- A banana that gets away from the

bunch usually gets peeled.

- Or 229.

- You might be the only big book

that some poor alcoholic will ever read.

- Then let's say I'm signing

off. I send you my 73.

- Going now.

- My 88.

- Love and kisses to your lady.

- And for good measure, a 24.

- Stay sober a day at a time.

- It's fun, it works,

and there's always room at

the round table for one more.

- To find a meeting near you

or a meeting online,

download the Meeting Guide

app on your mobile device.

- And for our final segment, I sat down

with GSO staff member, Diana

L. for, as far as we know,

the most technologically

advanced length being gone to

to carry the A.A. message.

- Hi, Diana. - Hi. - Thank you

for joining us today.

Diana, you are currently the GSO

staff member on the Regional

Forum's desk, but we are not

here to talk about that today.

We want to hear about your

experience attending an A.A.

meeting that is in virtual reality.

You put on VR goggles

and attended this meeting

live online with other members

in a three-dimensional virtual space.

Is that an accurate rundown?

- Yeah, it is.

You know, I, I've been sober

thanks to A.A. for 43 years,

got sober very young,

and I've pretty much, for many

years, have gone to only in-

person meetings, so it was

the first time I've ever

encountered an A.A. meeting

like that. It was wonderful.

- Can you walk us through how

you heard about this meeting

and how you were able to attend?

- I think it was through

the Accessibilities Desk.

A member was, from the

VR space was, reached out

to the office and said,

"Hey, you know, I'd love

to offer anyone who's

interested to experience

what it's like to come to

a meeting in VR space."

And I jumped at the chance.

I love the idea of experiencing

new things in sobriety.

I love going to the fringes of

Alcoholics Anonymous

to see how the hand of A.A. is there.

This was an amazing experience.

There was a little bit of a

training session where I had

to get the, the head goggles.

I met with this person,

they walked me through how

to just enter the world of VR.

It was my first time

ever being in a VR space.

But once I got into it,

it was like getting off

of a bus stop

and walking to my first meeting

when I did, when I was 15.

- Okay. So then that's, that,

that's what I wanna know next.

Like, okay, y- you're at the meeting.

What, what was it like? What

did you see? What did you hear?

How did it start for you?

- Well, it's just a meeting space.

And you walk in, a meeting has a greeter.

- Was the greeter an avatar?

Was it a, was it a virtual person?

- We all are avatars, so

that's who I'm walking

with my avatar.

I only see people in VR

space with my avatar.

- Right. So- And they see,

they see you as your avatar,

they, you seeing them as their avatars.

- Correct. I showed up to the meeting.

The greeter is in their

avatar. We shake hands.

In my orientation, I learned

basic motions. Hi, thumbs up.

What does that mean?

A handshake. You know-

- I'm sure you gotta be

able to raise your hand.

- Yeah, you do. I mean, some

meetings I think call on you,

but yeah, you do have to

learn to raise your hands.

There's a thumbs up.

That's something you use similar to

when you're nodding your

head in identification.

- Yeah. - It's accomplishing the

basic needs of getting yourself

to the meeting, sitting down,

holding something to read,

like if you're asked to

read some kind of reading

at the meeting, like a portion

of chapter five or the preamble.

I know that one of the new meetings

that was created recently

is a big book study.

- What does the room look like?

- Well, my particular meeting

that I have gone to is

outside around a campfire.

- Cool.

- It's very lovely outdoor space.

It's not a vast forest.

It's like a nice little urban park space.

You know, there's some trees,

there's a little creek,

there's like a campfire.

You, there's logs around,

so you're sitting on a log,

or you can stand up around the campfire,

and that's where the meeting that I go to.

- That sounds like a nice

place to have a meeting.

I suppose in the virtual

reality world, you could

have a meeting anywhere, you

could be in space, you could be

on the top of a building,

you could be underwater.

- Well, that's very interesting.

There are business meetings,

so maybe somebody has brought up the idea

of having other meetings

in other locations.

You know, the thing about VR space,

which I think is a little

unique, somebody has

to take the time to create

this space, programming,

you know, setting it up,

creating the space, literally.

Back to what you said, "Oh,

let's have a meeting out in

outer space." Well, they'd have

to build that world.

- Diana, do you see any benefits

for attending a meeting in

virtual space as opposed to IRL?

- So in live space, you know,

people talking over the person talking

or walking in front of

you, that's a distraction.

In video conferencing, it

could be people doing a bunch

of stuff while they're

listening, like walking, running,

exercising, et cetera,

excessive chatting on the side.

That's a distraction. In VR space,

it's really more like the

in- person experience,

and we are limited by

our physical avatars.

So you're focused on the meeting. Yeah.

- It seems like the virtual

setting could be really

beneficial as far as focus is concerned.

I'm sure you've seen a lot of

things change over the years.

It seems that recently,

technology has come into the

A.A. space in a pretty fast way.

Online meetings in a

video sharing platform like

how we're talking right now

has grown in popularity a whole

bunch in the past few years where

virtual reality meetings

seem to be relatively new,

but a growing aspect of A.A.

Do you have any thoughts

about all this change

that's been going on in the

most recent years as far

as technology is concerned?

- I mean, there are

other ways, as you know,

to access A.A. meetings.

I've gone to meetings

on the phone, of course,

before computers were

a common thing to have.

And bulletin boards chat

and of course now we do

a lot through computers.

So VR space to me is

just the next right step

because, because we can.

You know, A.A. members are

creating places for people

to access recovery.

In fact, the meeting, one

of the things I love about

that meeting that I've

gone to is I've met people

who have shared their stories

and they have gotten sober in VR space.

- Wow, that's great to

hear. We often assume

that younger people are more

open to changes in technology,

but here you are,

43 years sober attending

a virtual reality meeting.

What's been your experience

with changes in A.A. over the years

and how other members react to them?

- Hmm, that's an interesting question.

I think it's more about the person.

I met so many people who

are much older than me

who are seekers.

There are some A.A.s that

are, you know what?

They're gonna stay in their group.

I think it's really a matter

of the person and being open.

There's some people I've met

who are, God, in their 80s

and 90s who attend the VR

space and they love it.

So the realm of the spirit

is broad and inclusive.

That's our fellow

travelers, so we're just ...

I think VR space is just

another place to meet them.

- If you're carrying the

message of A.A. in a unique way,

we'd love to hear from you.

Please email publicinfo@aa.org.

For more information on GSO

and the organization of Alcoholics

Anonymous, you can listen

to this podcast, Our Primary Purpose.

So if you haven't already,

be sure to subscribe

so you can keep coming back.

- Thank you for listening

to Our Primary Purpose,

a podcast produced by the

General Service Office on behalf

of the Fellowship of

Alcoholics Anonymous in the US

and Canada.