Welcome to Milestone, episode 180 of the Business Development podcast.

And today we're chatting with the co host of CNBC's no retreat business Boot Camp, Q.

Harrison Terry.

And we're chatting all about his latest book, the Metaverse Handbook.

Stick with us, you are not going to want to miss this episode.

The great Mark Cuban once said, business happens over years and years.

Value is measured in the total upside of a business relationship by how much you squeezed out in any one deal.

And we couldn't agree more.

This is the business development podcast, based in Edmonton, Alberta, Canada and broadcasting to the world.

You'll get expert business development advice, tips and experiences, and you'll hear interviews with business owners, CEO's and business development reps.

You'll get actionable advice on how to grow business brought to you by Capital Business Development Capitalbd, CA.

Let's do it.

Welcome to the Business Development podcast and now your expert host, Kelly Kennedy.

Hello.

Welcome to episode 180 of the business development podcast and on today's milestone episode, we bring you none other than Q.

Harrison Terry.

Hugh Harrison is a trailblazing digital marketing expertise, author and entrepreneur renowned for his innovative contributions to the tech industry.

As the head of growth marketing at Mark Cuban Companies, a leading venture capital firm in Dallas, Texas, Hugh Harrison plays a pivotal role in shaping marketing strategies for a diverse portfolio of companies.

His career is marked by groundbreaking achievements, including co founding 23 Veevee and the world's first digital art marketplace powered by blockchain and leading marketing at Redux, where he specializes in lead acquisition and content marketing.

An influential voice in technology, he has co authored seminal works such as the NFT Handbook and the Metaverse Handbook, innovating for the Internet's next tectonic shift, guiding readers through the complexities of emerging digital landscapes.

Hugh Harrison's expertise extends far beyond the written word to the screen and stage.

As the co host of CNBC's no retreat business boot camp, he helps businesses overcome challenges through transformative experiences at Joe Desina's elite Vermont training facility.

His thought leadership has earned him features on CNN, Huffington Post and Forbes, and he has captivated audiences at CES, south by Southwest and TEDx.

Recognized four times as a LinkedIn top voice in tech, Hugh Harrison Terry is not just a marketer, but a visionary shaping the future of digital interaction.

His work transcends traditional boundaries, pushing the limits of what's possible in the metaverse and beyond.

Hugh Harrison it's an honor to have you on the show today.

Yo, what's good?

What's good man?

It's a pleasure to be here.

You know, the Kelly Kennedy show, this is, this is a big deal.

I hear your voice all the time.

It's like, it's weird.

I'm in the podcast and I'm hearing you give the intro, and I'm like, man, I've heard him give that same intro before.

It's pretty good.

You've got that dialed in, man.

Dude, it's an honor to have you on the show, man.

Like, I was so surprised when I reached out to you and your immediate response was, I love the show.

I was like, what?

You listen?

I mean, dude, it's a small world.

Like, there's not that many people that are consistent.

Like, so you talked about being at 180 shows.

Do you understand what that takes?

I mean, I know you do about two shows a week, so even still, you've been at it for almost two, a little.

A little over two years.

I mean, that takes dedication, man.

This is not an easy thing to do to produce a podcast.

I've been there myself, and I know that, you know, you've got to have a crazy rigorous schedule not only for yourself, but then your family and then also your business.

So hats off to you.

It's a pleasure to be here on the hundredth and eighties show.

And, like, of course, if you hit me up and you've got a show and it's good, I'm going to be like, yo, yeah, I love the show.

I just.

I think it's crazy because, dude, when I started the business development podcast, talking literally in my basement at the time to a wall, I was like, who in the world is going to listen to this show?

Just some guy coming on and talking business development twice a week.

Like, is anyone even going to give a shit?

And to honestly have an impact worldwide and, you know, even to someone like you, as influential as you, to be able to reach back and say, dude, I've heard your show and I love it, man.

It's like, it's unbelievable.

It really is, man.

Well, hats off to you, man.

I think that you just, let's just keep it going.

You know, this is the, this is just the beginning of something that is probably going to be much bigger, because every time you do this show, not only do your hosting skills improve, but also your, your connections and your world horizons.

And, you know, I'm sure you, you've, you've learned this when you do a podcast.

Uh, it's almost like going to college all over again.

You say these are almost like mini lectures and then being able to talk to people and build that relationship.

Some people you're never going to talk to again because they were just like, hey, you know, I learned what I learned.

They were just on our soapbox.

They use my podcast to sell something.

But then some people you're going to do business with and others you're going to, like, learn from, and they might have a mentor mentee relationship, all different types of things.

And, you know, that's the beautiful thing about, I think podcasts in 2024 and beyond is like, it's not necessarily just a mechanism for groupthink, it's a mechanism for connection.

Because if there's no other form where I can come and talk to somebody and also have their tribe or their audience listen to my thoughts and challenge my thoughts, right?

It's not just a collective, like, oh, everything he said was great.

There's some times where you have some people on and you're like, man, that guest wasn't our best guess, but it strengthened your own opinion or your own perspective of the world because you're like, okay, I don't necessarily agree with everything, but at least I got a chance to see the other side.

Yeah, yeah, no, dude.

And, you know, talking about the power of connection and really that's kind of what we're going to be talking about today.

Like, so much of what we're talking about today is the power of connection.

But I could have never imagined the doors that would have opened from Kelly talking to a wall in his basement and putting himself out there.

Like you said, like, the odds of me and you running into each other on the street are like zilch.

We live like probably 4000 miles away from each other.

I mean, it happened at a conference, right?

But then, now, like, in a world of conferences, it's.

There's so many of them that like, you know, we don't all go to the same conference.

Like ten years, 20, like, even say, 15 years ago, we'd all go to ces, we'd all go to like, the big health tech conferences.

But now there's like so many niche conferences.

Even if you're a marketer, right?

Like, it doesn't even matter what type of marketing.

There's video marketing conferences, there's event marketing conferences, there's like social media marketing conferences.

If you were into business development, you know, the whole concept of networking has changed quite a bit because LinkedIn, I know it sounds, you know, a little archaic now.

Cause there's so much more than LinkedIn.

But, like, think about the world where collecting the business card actually mattered.

Yeah.

Now it's like, I actually feel.

I think I still carry some business cards because I go to conferences and everybody has the damn QR code, and they're like, scan my code.

Scan my code.

Imagine, like, imagine being a human, bro, and having, like, a barcode and, like, just like, this book.

Like, just scan my.

Scan right here, man.

Scan right here.

You want.

You want some of me?

Scan right here.

That's really.

What.

Have you been to a conference lately?

Yeah.

Well, that.

That's where it's going.

I agree.

But you know what?

You're right.

You kind of.

You kind of touched on something.

I think now to stand out, you have to go back.

Like, there's a certain level.

I do that, too.

I totally do that, too.

You got this.

I do.

This is weird.

I got the little girl.

We carry around a barcode, but on.

The front, I still have a regular business card with, like, my picture on it and stuff.

Like, I mix the worlds, man.

I mix the worlds.

You gotta.

I have it because, you know, you have to have it.

But, like, it still.

Still is weird.

But not to cut you off, you were on a really good point there.

You were like, you know, I just think it's weird that we are.

Barcodes, man.

We barcoded ourselves.

Yeah.

Yeah, we did.

Yeah, we did.

And, you know, like, we're going to get into it today because we are going deep on the metaverse, which is something that, dude, your book opened my eyes, and I remember talking to my fiance and just saying, like, holy shit, babe, this is coming.

Like, this isn't just coming.

It's literally here.

And I barely knew about it.

It's like, I understand that there's, like, oculus and stuff, but, like, I didn't understand how deep it was, how entrenched it already is and how much money is being funneled into it until I read your book, dude.

And so I want to get into that.

But before we get into that today, tell us, you know, you're a serial entrepreneur.

You've been doing this for an incredibly long time.

You know, you are so prominent in the tech industry, frankly, you're like the futurist.

You know everything that's going on before it's even before anyone else does.

You know, how did you end up on this path?

Who is Q Harris and Terry?

All right, so, yes, you covered a lot.

I, you know, it's funny is like, growing up, you know, I think there was always this point where, like, oh, I want to be a futurist.

Do I want to be a futurist.

And then, like, I started meeting futurists and I just wasn't that impressed.

So I, it's like, I don't want have any qualms with it, but it was like, it was like, to me, a futurist was someone that just sat back and like, they predicted, like, what would happen in the future, but they had like no real world experience or not all of them, but most of them don't, right?

So there's people that just sit on the online and they have their subspecs and it's kind of the equivalent of fantasy sports.

And so the problem there is, like, when you want to actually do something as a futurist, you actually have no real world knowledge of how to deploy systems at scale, how to actually get people to care about what this is versus next.

And, like, there's always been an emerging wave of technology that's presented in front of us, right?

Like we talked about the QR code.

QR code was here since the early two thousands.

It didn't catch on until 2024.

And it took a whole pandemic for us to realize the great value of a QR code.

And so if you were a futurist back in the early two thousands, you could have said, everyone's going to do it, and heck, you go to Japan.

They adopted the QR code in ways that was way, way more prominent than anything we had done until the pandemic.

And still they're quite, quite, quite, quite in the future as it relates to some of this adoption.

And so, like, on how I describe myself, how I think about it is, let's take it one step down.

I just see myself as a future thinker.

And every day I ask myself, what's the future?

And I take detailed notes and I store them in a journal.

That journal used to be on every note.

Now that journal is on everydays.

WTF?

It's open source.

Like, you can go right now and see what I've been thinking about since I've written the metaverse handbook.

And I did this for a couple reasons.

One, when I was young, I always did this.

I always said, okay, this is cool.

New iPod came out new, Toshiba came out, new zoom, Microsoft player, whatever.

I was always intrigued by technology and just kind of the state of it, but the insights don't really come from the devices themselves.

Yeah, the iPhone is cool, but you really learn more when you understand Jony Ives insights into why he wanted it to be a single slate of glass or everybody talks about Steve Jobs right now.

Jensen, Wang, Nvidia, and his whole concept of accelerated compute.

You learn more from actually looking at the people and you take the notes to follow their heartbeats, like the heartbeats of these emerging technology waves.

And they come from some of the visionary founders that we've run across.

And it's not always the visionary founders.

Sometimes it's just like a little entrepreneur or a technologist or someone that is a researcher.

Look at all the insights that we found with generative AI in the last couple of years.

And, like, you know, we were following Mustafa Sullivan way before he would go to Microsoft, right?

Like, I was, I was talking about that guy on my notes, like, like, for the last, like, three years, and I was like, yo, this guy's gonna be big.

Like, because he was doing these incredible things at DeepMind.

And you're like, damn.

Like, they figured this out at DeepMind way before anything.

And DeepMind was, is Google's, like, generative AI platform where they.

I oversimplified that, but it's where it was the, it was the inch, it was the research institute of Google where they actually would go and discover a lot of the breakthroughs that would become generative AI, what we now use known as chat, GPT, et cetera.

And so, like, yeah, you can see I'm passionate about this stuff.

I can go on and on.

But, you know, the simplest form of, like, the future stuff is like, I just think that, like, technology has such an instrumental impact on, or it's such an integral impact on our lives nowadays.

And if you don't understand it, you're kind of left behind because there's going to be somebody that does understand it come through and just show you how to do what you do better than yourself.

And all they did was press some buttons on a keyboard and I think, you know, for five minutes a day, if you want to, like, just go and see, you know, what was game changing about some of the innovations.

Cool.

All you got to do is just, you know, open up your device and, like, scroll.

It's a never been easier.

And so my notes are free if anybody wants them.

Everydays, WTF?

I call it a WTF, because every day I ask myself, what's the future?

But nowadays, most of the things that we look at from the technological element really do make you go, what the, you know, I'm not going to say the rest, but I mean, yeah, yeah.

I mean, you know, a lot of this stuff doesn't make sense if you just look at it from surface level, right?

And so that's why I named it Wtinhouse.

And, you know, it's been, it's been going well.

So we do that.

But that's, like, more so a hobby for me, man.

Like, you know, I've always been that way ever since I was a little kid.

Like, there's, that's, that hasn't changed.

And so when I think about my actual career, you know, I've always been intrigued by, like, growth as well and more so how you can, how you could grab people's attention and, you know, create, you know, shifts and not only culture, but just mass understanding.

And that has been something I've been a part of as far as back into, you know, I worked a little bit in the fine art world.

You touched a bit on that.

When we were selling, like, NFTs, before they were known as NFTs, was like, I was selling digital art and, like, you know, it was, wow, it was wild.

But, you know, we, we did that.

And it's crazy because you can go back now and, like, everyone can see that.

Like, oh, yeah, he was actually selling digital art in, like, 2015.

It's crazy.

It's crazy.

Like, sorry, I'm just going to pause you there for a sec, but, like, one of the things that blew my mind from the book was, honest to God, dude, like, and I might sound like a bit of an idiot here, I didn't even know what an NFT was until I read your book and then literally realized after reading that, that, holy crap, people are spending astronomical amounts of money on digital art, on, on nfts, on tokens, on avatars.

And I'm just like, how did I not know about any of this?

And I know that I'm like, you were doing business, consumer of technology.

You were doing like, I love new tech.

I love this, I love this segment here, because if I go to any crypto group, they're going to be like, oh, he's a doomer, Boomer.

He doesn't know anything.

It's like, no, you were doing business development.

You were doing what you said you were doing.

You were focused on the things you were focused on.

And the crypto industry is not as big as we think it is.

If you're in the epicenter of it, it looks humongous.

It looks like it's the behemoth of the year.

But when you actually step a step, a few steps back, you'll see that it's still a nascent industry.

It's still growing.

You know, there's some cool innovations, but, you know, it's not a problem that you don't know what an NFT is.

And, like, quite frankly, some of the people that think they know what an NFT is don't really even understand what an NFT is from the fundamental standpoint.

Like, it's just a file format at the end of the day.

Right.

I'm oversimplifying it a lot, but, like, I think sometimes oversimplification can help in that.

Going back to the point I was making earlier, the actual understanding, when you grab someone's attention, the understanding which they have, everyone doesn't have to understand it at a.

At a microscopic level.

Like, how many things do you actually understand at that level?

I'm asking you.

Not many.

Like, we all, we all do.

We all understand electricity.

It's.

No, it's magic.

Yeah, right.

Like, you know, if the light doesn't work, you know, I'm going to try to change the light bulb.

But at a certain point, you know, you got to call an electrician, and then maybe that electrician has to call a master electrician.

Maybe the master electrician has to call the manufacturer.

You don't know.

Right.

It's impossible for us to have such deep understanding about everything that goes on in our day to day lives.

And so I just look at it.

I'm like, okay, like, if you can oversimplify some things so people can just have a generalization that they can then transfer.

I think that is one of the cool things about technology and society and meme culture today is like, you can take a meme and people can understand a world event.

They can understand a shift in norms all off a meme.

In heck, we're taking memes and driving current economic growth.

So it's like, sometimes that oversimplification, if done properly, can still get you to the destination.

And again, I understand and agree with everybody that's a purist or about the fundamentals.

And they're saying, well, they don't understand it.

They don't understand it.

I get it.

But, like, a lot of people nowadays are just chasing dopamine hits, and you got to give them what they're looking for, because if you don't.

Tick tock with.

Yeah, yeah.

Sorry, dude.

I didn't mean to.

I didn't mean to break you there.

It was just one of those things.

There's like, holy cow.

Like, it was mind blowing for me.

You're fine, man.

You're super fine.

This is, this is all good stuff.

I feel like we're still in the early inning, the first inning of this conversation.

Oh, yeah.

Oh, dude, we could have multiple conversations just given how much is here, right?

Like, we talked about this before the show, but it's like, there's so much here, and we're not even going to get into the marketing side of the storytelling of your career.

I was like, dude, we need to spend some time here because I think like, dude, I'm 35.

Like, I'm, I'm old in the grand scheme of, like, new electronics, for sure, but it's like, I'm not that old.

Like, I know enough.

I feel like I try to keep up, but for me, this was so eye opening.

And it's like, dude, if this is eye opening for me, this is going to be super eye opening for, you know, hundreds of thousands, if not millions of people over time.

Because I don't think there's a lot of people who truly understand what the metaverse is or what's coming our way.

They still look at the web and you're like, yeah.

Like, I hop on there and I do what I need to do.

I do my banking, I do my LinkedIn, and I get off, right?

I think most people, that's the web.

And it's like, holy crap.

No, you go through in the book, you talk about web one, the first integration, web two, which is kind of where we are today, and then web three, which is coming.

And I was just like, holy crap.

I never even thought about it as an evolution.

Yeah, I mean, web, web three, as we think about it today, it's interesting because, again, going back to the crypto side, crypto has taken a lot of the attention, and I don't see it as, like, you know, the metaverse will definitely have some parts of it that are tied to blockchains and crypto economies because that's just, that's, I think that's just an inevitable part of it.

But as you've even seen today, that's not a necessity.

So you look at, like, apple's vision pro, and that device, like, fundamentally speaking, is kind of weird.

Have you used it yet?

Not yet.

Okay, so it's weird because when you think about the Apple vision Pro, you're like, all right, we've got this device that, like, is, you know, it's heavy.

It's not very apple like.

You put it on your face, and if you can get past that, everything else is mind blowing.

It's literally, if you can get past the, like, the form factor that it is in today, everything else is mind blowing.

Because the web three, as you described it, it actually does exist.

And you can go into it and, like, you know, you don't.

We don't use.

We don't use.

We don't use our hands in the same way.

We don't use keyboards and mice.

Like, you just look at things and tap and, like, all of it comes to life and it comes into your.

Your purview and then, like, you can interact and, you know, apple is allowing more people to build on that.

And so we're starting to see what Marvel experiences are like, you know, here recently, the Marvel, the Disney plus show, what if it was like, marvel's.

What if.

You know where they take.

Yeah, we saw it last weekend.

Okay.

Yeah.

So you have that, but now they're bringing that into Apple vision Pro.

So in one end, you can, like, on a regular tv or a smartphone device, you can watch the.

The show, or now you can put the Apple vision Pro on it.

You can be in the show and literally be a part of it.

And now you're one of the what if characters, and you can see how big Thanos is in real life.

It's no, it's no longer.

You got to go to an IMAX screen to kind of get the perspective and scale.

So you can just do that at the.

In your own bedroom or your own home.

And so that's cool, because as we start to build more experiences that are tied to kind of this new reality, we're going to further define what web three looks like.

And I think that web three, even when we wrote the book, has changed a little bit.

And I think it will continue to evolve because we have to see what actually sticks and what actually shifts a lot of the cultural understanding of this.

My favorite point here on web three, and this is the one thing that I'll touch on, is I was on Instagram, I think, last week or this weekend, and I was scrolling, and obviously, I see a lot of, like, metaverse content went out, and there was a.

There was metaverse church, and it was metaverse church, man.

It was metaverse church.

And what was crazy about this metaverse church was you have everybody in their costumes, and, you know, you got even half naked women.

Not a difficult church outfit, eh?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Like, you know, like, they're out here just, you know, I'm like, half naked women in church, this is crazy.

Like, but in the metaverse, right?

Like, maybe that's not.

I mean, maybe that is accepted because, like, you wouldn't go to church in a bikini, but in the metaverse, I guess you could, like, because the shame?

Like, who's going to shame you?

And if so, you just mute them.

Like, you don't have to hear them.

And so, like, it sounds wild, but, like, you know, we're looking down on it and, like, saying, what?

Okay, yeah, there are people that are coming up through it that have been playing minecraft their whole lives, that have been playing roblox their whole lives.

And so digital economies and digital destinations are things that are just a natural fit for their consciousness.

And you have to look at that because there's more value there and then being there right now than there would be in ten years when we're trying to catch up.

It's funny, it's think about the brands that just would have did TikTok, let's just say, in 2018, where would they be today?

Right?

Like, they would obviously still care about the band, but they wouldn't be like all these lib brands that are trying to catch up and say, oh, yeah, I'm trying to get my tick tock on.

I'm trying to get my tick tock on.

It's like, you're already too late.

TikTok is.

TikTok's almost gone.

Yeah, no, for sure.

I think at the other side of it, too, it's like you can be early, which is, I think, kind of like where you're at, because you have such a future understanding.

You've seen this coming.

Like, the fact that you were selling digital art in 2015 shows just how early you were, because I don't think people were even thinking about anything in 2015 on this front, for the most part, aside from, like you said, meta, who was heavily investing at that point, and I'm sure some of the other companies that were, you know, building XR experience, but nobody would have thought of them.

Like, it wasn't in the pop culture.

Like you said, Covid kind of changed everything.

It did.

It changed a lot, you know?

And when it.

When it changed it, it allowed for some new understandings to be developed.

I think about not only the world and society, but also connection to the point of your podcast.

Like, I think it's amazing that we can hop on this podcast, not even be in a studio, remake content, share content, and be connected with everybody.

So when I say we're more connected than we ever have been, it's like the power of sharing your voice is just.

It's infinite now.

Like, you can literally go from nothing to something in near real time.

And because of some of these algorithms and some of the shifts in the algorithms, you now have the ability wherever.

If you only have 200 followers, as long as the algorithm sees it and says this could go far, you're not limited to your own reach as an individual.

And that was true of TikTok, that's now true of x.

It's probably going to be true on the meta properties, and it's going to cascade downward, I think, because there's something to be said about it.

Now, on the flip side, if you don't agree with that, again, I said we've never been more connected.

You can go into the fetty verse and the fetty versus.

Are you familiar with the fediverse?

I am not, no.

Bring us in.

All right, so the fediverse is, this is funny.

This is my first time giving this, like, live, and I want to, I don't want to simplify too much.

It's not live, dude.

If you, if you jumble, I will fix it.

Don't you worry about it.

No.

So like, you know, the fed, I'm going to try to get it right.

So that way it's not too crazy.

Right?

So the fetty verse, as it stands, stands for like, you know, like a federation.

So that's what fed, that's where the feddy part comes from, federation and then universe.

So universe is like, you know, like we're all connected in one universe.

And the cool thing about this is the federation side is they're saying, what if there were some accords or customs that we could all just kind of have as we go about our digital ways?

So why do you have to have 15 social accounts?

Why can't you just have one username and that username be reflected?

So why can't, you know, when you go on your ex per se, why can't your ex content live on Instagram or live on Facebook?

Why do you have to repost it 15 different times?

Right, agreed.

That's probably like the easiest way to understand what the federation stands for.

And then obviously it gets more technical.

There's some blockchain elements in some cases, and there's all types of cool stuff that happens on the backend.

But as far as, like, actual practicality as why me and you should care about it, it's like now we have, we went from many different social profiles to one and one that's connected that where you can control the data.

So you can say, I don't want this information to be shown on X property, I don't want this information to be here.

I actually want this information to always be cross posted.

So you get to control that, and obviously when you get a little bit more manual control, things can get a little bit more technical.

But I, the funny thing is most of us already have a fettyverse account.

Do you know what that, what platform is using the fediverse today?

Google.

Oh, it surprisingly is not Google.

What?

It's meta.

Really?

You heard of threads?

Yeah.

So threads is, it's a, it's fetty versus compliant.

It's part of it.

Okay, okay, I thought Google, because whenever I go to sign into something now, it's like, you want to sign into your Google account?

I'm like, yeah, sure.

No, Google's just being Google.

They just want, they want all your data.

No, yeah, yeah, I know.

Meta, meta, many people wouldn't get that right because it's like you would have never thought.

But like meta in the last two to three years has made this big shift to like open source.

Like, you know, llama, which is their backend model for their generative AI chat, GPT like functionality, all that's open source.

So you can be a developer today, download their model, install it and start building.

And unless you have like almost a billion users, it's totally, it's totally free.

So, you know, like Google can't go download their models and use it without talking to meta first.

But yeah, you, you're all, you're any, any kid in their college dorm room, any business really, that doesn't have nearly a billion users, they can go and start building on meta.

And like you get all of the developer resources and ecosystems and just some of the learnings that have been had, you get to build on top of that.

So now we're in this world where it's kind of shifted.

You know, meta and Facebook and all their properties used to be kind of closed platform.

Yeah, they're now kind of opening it up.

And some of the winning content that is derived from that has been quite fascinating.

They've got the meta ray bans, which are kind of cool.

You can like create content real time.

First press a button, captures it, share it to your story, share with your friends, and, you know, it takes away this, you know, it creates this abstraction layer where I don't have to do this.

So when I travel and I go to Japan and whatnot, I press the button.

You know, I can still be in the moment, still see everything, and then when I miss it, I can go back on my phone and see those experiences as they happen in real time.

So I think that that is kind of cool.

And we're starting to see some of these, these companies change and shift.

And so when I look at it, it's like today to go back to the earlier point of why we were doing that, you know, publishers are preparing to federate their sites because the algorithm that I was talking about, how we were saying, like, the algorithms are giving you, you don't, I mean, they're giving you some lift, right?

You don't have to be, you don't have to have a hundred thousand followers to get lift.

So they're deciding it.

Well, that's not good.

If you're a publisher, you have built, you know, a brand and you have a million people, and those million people never see it.

Well, you know, now we do need things like the fediverse that still kind of work.

Like the old way where it's like, if I follow this feed, I want to see the content from this feed, not what I think the algorithm will give me.

And, you know, now is the early time to really go lean into, I think, the fediverse and build some understanding.

Like, if I was a young kid in my dorm room thinking about, like, you know, how to make an impact or how to be impressive, you know, I would start literally writing, you know, just a couple documents about what the fediverse is, make a couple presentations, put the stuff on YouTube, write some blogs, go pitch some local businesses, and like, you know, figure out how to federate someone's site and their content.

You know, what does it take for a musician to exist in the fediverse?

What does it take for an author or a publisher or a podcaster to exist in this platform and just do the work?

Right?

Like, you know, if you can create value, people will figure out a way to compensate you.

So I think sometimes today we get so fatuated with, like, how do I get paid?

How do I get paid?

How do I get paid?

Well, you get paid by adding value.

Like, that's never changed, right?

Yeah.

If you show up and do good work, people will pay you.

Like, I mean, heck, you could, you could not even ask for it.

And it's like people that just go play and busk on the street, they play guitar or sing or whatever, there's people like, oh, man, this is amazing.

They just want to tip you.

So if it works for them, don't you think it works the same in business?

Now, some people give away this stuff for free and there's a lot of sharks out here and all that.

Yeah, but like, I'm telling you, there's still a lot of people that don't mind paying you, and you hear those stories day in and day out.

Like, you know, there are still good people in the world.

So, like, show up, do the work, and if you're younger in your career, we know what's coming.

Start to be a vessel and start to simplify this stuff and make it easier so people can approach it.

And, you know, if I were, if I were super young, like, again, that's where I would, that's where I would be.

Because it's inevitable that this shift is gonna happen.

And if Mark Zuckerberg already took a bet on it, you know, took all of Instagram and said, hey, I'm gonna lift it up, we're going to connect these Instagram profiles with these fetty versa profiles, but, like, call it threads and tell people it's our ex competitor.

Well, that's, that's cool.

It's great business development standpoint, but obviously, there's a nice little component there that's very convenient for him to, like, you know, now approach into a new, a new, a whole new world of social media.

Yeah, yeah.

And, you know, you, you touched on the fact that it's all changing.

But, like, so much of this, like I said, I had never even come across, and, dude, like, I've talked to a lot of people.

By the time we're doing this interview, I've probably, probably interviewed at least 80 experts in various fields, and I haven't heard one of them talk about any of this until I read your book.

And I was, honestly, it's that big.

Like, I'm hoping our listeners can understand how mind shifting this book is.

You have to get the metaverse handbook.

If you are not familiar with what is going on in the metaverse, you have to get it because it is changing.

Everything is going to change.

The web is going to change.

The way that we interact with the world, the way we do business, it's all going to change, and probably a lot sooner than you think.

Which is why I'm kind of really pinning down Q.

Harrison today on this, because I think it's that critical.

I think we, nobody's paying attention, and it's time to start paying attention.

I couldn't agree more with you.

And, you know, I showed the book while you were talking about it.

So when I was writing this, I just got off the NFT handbook, and we had finished it, and chapter nine of the NFT handbook, I touched on the metaverse because I was like, okay, if you have nfts, you have these digital files that are immutable in nature.

You can prove provenance and all these good things and attributes about nfts, they have to have value somewhere.

And I'm hard pressed to tell you that you changing your phone screen or you changing your profile picture on Twitter or xdev or any of the meta properties is going to be what the future holds.

And so a lot of the future thinking in that book was, I was like, if nfts exist, then they really only have value in like these metaverse worlds where, which already have value in the real world.

So it's like we're saying nfts don't have value.

And then, you know, you have all the things that happen there and like all the money that's transferred.

But like, you know, let's just say that was hype.

Then you say, okay, the metaverse doesn't have value, but then you say, hold up, hold up, hold up, hold up, hold up.

Some of these metaverses don't have enough people, so they don't have, you know, true economies, but a lot of them do.

You look at Roblox, I mean, Walmart, one of the largest companies here in the US, they have an incredible Walmart world in Roblox.

Wow.

You can go scan the aisle, shop, kids can interact, they can be there.

And you know, like when you go and look at the numbers for Gen Alpha, which, you know, Gen Z and Gen Alpha are like the largest components of Roblox.

When you look at like, who is there?

Walmart's a top brand.

Walmart, yeah.

Who would ever thought?

But then you go back, you look at it, you're like, well, damn, why is Walmart a top brand?

Well, okay, Mrbeast launched feastables on Walmart.

So that was like, that was a few years back.

Then you got Roblox.

Walmart's been with the kids the whole way through, right?

And so then of course, yeah, when you go look at the numbers, you see Walmart's right there.

You're like, I guess it makes sense.

And so when I look at that, it's like, okay, Walmart's there.

They're not selling enough teas, they're not doing anything.

But like, there's a lot of kids that want to buy Roblox gift cards to get the robux.

And I talked about that in the book, right?

Like those.

Roblox, it's a real company.

Roblox is not a fake company, right?

It's a real company, real value, billions of dollars being transacted.

So if there's already value there, and this is just one closed economy.

What happens when you open this up?

What happens when you start to tell people they can export their creations in one world and bring it to another?

Well, in order to really do that, you're going to need some infrastructure.

The infrastructure looks like, I think in NF, but there's going to be upgrades the same way that the digital music file that we used, like if you remember, you go all the way back, remember that there was like AIFF and then there was Wav, and then now we have like the MP3, and then even from the MP3 we have accident.

The codec has changed and it's evolved.

And most people don't know, most people still call it just an mp3 and move on with life.

But the point I'm making is if we call it NFT today and the format changes, cool, whatever.

But that method of thinking, that ideology is what's going to be needed to transact and create value and crystallize that value in some of these digital economies that we see known as the metaverse and others.

Now the problem with the metaverse is there isn't really a true use case yet where it resonates with the masses.

So if I give you a headset and you see it as a gaming instrument or you see it as a vehicle to just find common understanding with other techies of futurists, that's cool.

But we've got to get past this moment where it's just a, I don't know, what do you call it?

A novelty?

Kind of exactly where it's just a novelty.

Right?

Like, you don't want it to be a novelty.

It's like our phone.

There's like probably 40 different use cases you'll use your phone for today.

Definitely not a novelty anymore.

Yeah, yeah.

I don't think it really ever was.

Even with flip phones, if you go back like 30 years now, you remember the candy bar phones and the flip phones.

Like we still were playing games and we're still like, the batteries didn't last, actually, batteries lasted long in the beginning, right?

We had all day battery life in the beginning.

And then like, you got to 2004 and battery life just flooded.

And now brick breaker was really good.

It was, it was, you know, you could, you could spend 9 hours on that river snake.

Yeah, of course.

Yeah.

Honestly, dude, like, oh man, that brings me back.

But yeah, no, you're right.

Like, they were tools, but they were still, I think the idea, okay, so the problem that I see with the metaverse and the reason that people is because the metaverse as we think of it is still kind of an idea, but it's an idea that's very real.

I think it's the way that we define it.

So in the book, you kind of said the metaverse isn't just one thing.

You can't just look at the oculus and say that that's the metaverse.

Because the reality is you can access the metaverse from a flat screen.

You can access the metaverse from your phone.

I think that's an idea that people have not really grasped yet.

When they look at the metaverse or they think about metaverse, they think about a VR experience.

Yeah, I agree that the metaverse, like, how you define it and how you access it, it's gonna be fleeting.

Like, it's like, right now it's changing.

Like, even when I wrote the book, like, the Apple Vision Pro didn't exist.

The Xreal Air two pros didn't exist.

Like, you know, that's a really cool device.

It costs like, it's like sub $1,000.

I think it's even less than that.

But I don't have the exact price in my.

Near me right now, but it's sub $1,000.

You can put these glasses on, you can plug them into any, like pretty much any device with a USB C component on it.

And like, dude, you can have like a 200 inch screen just floating in front of you and like, you feel like you're a minority reporter.

You're like Tony Stark, right?

Like, you're just like, yeah, and it's like, this isn't the Apple vision Pro, but this is also a device that's kind of sitting next to it now.

It's still too techy, right?

Like, it looks cooler than, like some of the devices that exist, but it's still like, not like sexy enough where like this are probably going to.

Well, they look like big bricks on your face.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Or yeah, yeah, yeah.

You look like you're going back in time.

So it's like, the question here is like, how do we get that to a sexy form factor?

And I think, you know, the company that I'm going to actually give some praise to again, as far as them being like, super future forward is meta.

Like, we talk about those meta ray bans that is the metaverse, right?

It's.

It's not necessarily the one where it capture, it captures your whole peripheral view, but it augments your experience of everyday life in a way that, you know, was Isdeze quite invisible to the everyday user.

Like, you have these glasses on that can see the world around you can give you contextual understanding of certain things.

If you say, what type of cat is this?

What is the, what landmark is this?

You can talk to it and it'll give you, you know, complete breakdowns.

And it's quite good.

And so they have that on one end.

Then you have like the social layer where it's like I can take a picture or a video.

It goes to my digital properties.

I can share that content on those digital properties.

And the people around me can kind of see it.

You know, if I want to live stream it or do a video call, I can do the same, whether it be on Instagram or WhatsApp.

And now it sounds like I'm an ad for meta.

But it's like, to many, that is the evolution of the Internet, right?

It's like we go from just using these singular devices for these singular use cases to more of this omnipresent, interconnected world where you just show up and you exist.

And a lot of the technology does all the hard work for you.

Now, that's hard to do because we've got some limitations on processing and compute.

We've got some limitations on battery, we've got some limitations on form factor.

And like, how do you actually get all this in a way that doesn't cause strain to your eyes, your face, your body in general?

Because we know what this looks like.

You can be the coolest person on the world, but you got to wear this trench coat suit of technology and, like, quite frankly, you're going to get pulled over walking down the street because people are going to think, you know, you're up to something dubious.

So I get such bad motion sickness from VR headsets.

Honestly, I am like almost embarrassed to say it because we got a PSVR, two for the boys, right?

They absolutely love the thing.

I've played it.

We got Gran Turismo seven, which is completely immersive.

Honestly, one of the craziest experiences I have ever had in my simulator, too.

Oh, yeah, we got the steering wheel and all that.

I'm like, I'm racing in Gran Turismo and I'm literally feeling it.

I'm feeling the experience which blew my mind.

My mind was actually making me feel the turns and the like.

It was very weird.

I don't know how to explain it, but you can actually, if you've experienced it before, it's like your brain can remember and when you're turning, you're feeling it.

But then probably about lap three, I'm like, man, I am going to lose my cookies.

And unfortunately, since that point, that's kind of been my experience with VR.

So it's amazing.

But for whatever reason, I struggle with it.

No, I mean, I love grand cheese most.

Seven.

It's an incredible game.

I actually.

I bought one of the rigs and bought a PlayStation five just for that.

And I have the VVR two.

I've never played any other game but that.

On the PlayStation five.

No, literally, like, only.

I only play Grand Prismo, and it's for the reasons you describe.

It's like, you know, that's the first.

That's the.

If I want a game in VR, that's what it should look like.

That's what it should feel like.

It's mind blowing.

I've done a lot of experiences.

The only other experience, I might say that it was kind of cool.

It's like, I play.

I was in Japan once, and you.

We had.

They have, like, they've got these suits you can kind of get in.

Like, here I go, talking about tech suits, and it's like a.

Like, think like you're in this giant mech, but it's like you get into the suit, and so it's like, it.

It copies the movements of these masculine.

Like that.

But then they put the headset on you.

So now you feel like you're in this massive robot, and then, like, you're, like, actually, like, piloting a gundam, and you're, like, fighting with other people in wars.

And that's like.

It's funny.

The Gundam comes in, like the machines are listening to us.

It comes on screen as I'm talking about.

It runs away.

You know?

That's like.

That's what it feels like.

Yeah, it's like that.

It's still grand.

Turismo, to me, is the better experience.

Cause it's like.

It's like.

It almost feels like when you go.

If you like.

Did you.

Did you do, like, the license part in Gran Turismo?

No.

Like I said, I, like, I.

We got it for the boys, and I think I played it, like, a couple times, but it made me so sick.

But, you know, you were talking about the suit experience, and me and my fiance, we actually did do the suit experience in a VR, like, vrcade.

Right.

Okay.

Where you could actually move around.

And I didn't get sick from that.

So I think for me, it's the body disconnect.

If I can actually move around in VR, I don't get sick.

But if I'm sitting and the world is moving around me, it throws me for a loop.

That's interesting, right?

That's super interesting because researchers that are building these things need that feedback right there.

That's oppression and insight that allows them to then kind of say, okay, well, what does this look like?

You know what's also fascinating when you look at the meta quest platform, what is eye opening to me is like, the prolificness of fitness apps.

Yeah.

Like, I mean, obviously, you know, we live in a world and, like, as a marketer, there's always, there's this qualm in trope.

Like, you either help people get paid or get laid.

And so then, like, you start to go down some of the attributes of those and, like, on the getting laid spectrum, you just like, obviously losing weight and diet and all that.

So it's like, okay, you've got this, like, crazy trend where, like, people will pay 30, $40 a month just to, like, put this headset on and work out and they'll do that versus going to the gym or doing anything else.

And, like, we've seen this phenomenon before.

Like, remember the Wii, the Nintendo Wii?

Remember how that was like a crazy workout like device?

Like, you know, people would do zumba, people would do bowling and tennis and all this stuff.

And it was like, the Wii was like one of the devices that got people to, like, work out in ways that they, they wouldn't have ever expected.

And I think you can even tie the Wii to some of the revolutions that we saw with Pokemon go.

Like, when you think about Pokemon go and how that got people outdoors and walking around and all that good stuff.

Like, I think that, like, we saw the early beginnings of that with the Wii.

And obviously there were like, games for the Nintendo DS and all that stuff before and in between that.

But, like, I still think that, like, you have these moments where there's these, there's these big shifts in, like, understanding.

And so those were shifts.

The shift right now on the quest platform is like, it's a workout device.

But then, like, to your point now, it's like, okay, a peloton is stationary.

You sit the bike down.

People cycle, watch screen.

Okay, life is good.

You need a lot of room now to say, oh, your meta quest device is going to be your new gym.

Okay, so I'm going to go box.

I'm going to go do the beat saver.

I'm going to go do all these, these actions.

But, like, you need space.

And what we also know is, like, you know, space is a luxury nowadays.

That's right.

That's right.

You know, one of the concepts that you really, and, you know, we're talking to an entrepreneurial and business audience here, right?

So I can hear a lot of people.

I can already see the wheels turning.

Okay, this is gonna be big, but what is it?

What does it really mean?

Like, and I, and in the book, you really kind of focused in on nfts.

And I think people are like, well, what is that?

And really what it kind of comes down to is it's a digital asset that there's a limited amount.

It's not like going to the store and buying a digital video game or renting a show on Netflix.

It's, they're, they're probably limited to a certain amount.

So it has scarcity and it is essentially property.

Like when you own it, it's not like in a video game where you unlock a gun or whatever and then anyone and their dog can unlock that gun.

Kind of what it does is it gives you essentially a digital asset that is linked to you, that is linked to your digital wallet and literally becomes property that you can then buy, sell.

And this comes down to property.

Like in the book, you talk about digital land.

Yeah.

Like there, it's going to be like a whole nother world where there will be like digital real estate agents.

Yeah, yeah.

And it's already happening.

Like, you know, you can be a digital real estate agent today.

If you go to Fabrica, there's a website that allows you to do that.

And, you know, it sounds wild, sounds super wild, but it's here.

And I think people should check that out to talk to your insight around it being finite and some of the concepts there.

Most people understand college.

They understand that you go to college, you do your time, four years, whatever, and you get a degree.

Degrees in itself are kind of finite in the sense that however many students are graduating, that's how many degrees there should be a.

So it's not like there's an endless amount of degrees.

There's just like, you know, 2000 kids, 2000 degrees.

That's if all 2000 kids graduate.

So maybe there were 4000 kids.

You know, you lose half of that population, 2000 finish and completed on a set time.

And so you're at that time when you have your graduation, that's when you get those degrees.

Now, in a world where there isn't a database of that, I mean, these schools obviously keep records.

And if you want to request your transcripts and all that information, you can get that from the school, but it's centralized and, you know, there's something to be said about that.

Obviously, there's been like the paper mill degree farms and all that.

Like, we know about all the scams and, you know, we're not here to solve that, but I'm using this as just more so a model, a vehicle to understand it, like an analogy of sorts.

And so when you look at it, the transformation, right, is like, for the first time ever in the digital world, you know, the paper mill can't exist, right?

Like, you can't.

Like it used to be.

You take a photo, I screenshot the photo, man, we both got the same photo.

Now, yours might have a little bit more resolution, but for some of the screens and devices and things that we're doing, resolution is kind of.

It's a moot point because it looks good enough on both.

The screenshot looks just as good for the intended use case as the actual real deal.

And so how do you prove that you have the real deal?

And, you know, that that had been a question for a long time, the concept of an NFT and that technology has kind of solved that understanding.

What we've done with that understanding today is now you can go into a digital space and you can say, well, if you decorate your digital home, that those items can be rare and unique and you have the art use cases.

But even more fascinating is like, how do NFTs interact intersect with the.

Or how does the concept of digital sovereignty intersect with the actual real world asset?

Real world.

Real world assets?

And so we see it with money like bitcoin and ethereum finally starting to really be introduced into the tapestry of finance.

So you see the global economy is now finally starting to liken digital money as if it were any other instrument.

And there's still a little bit of resistance, but not as much as it nearly was the last decade or so.

And so as that opens up, you have some qualms that come alongside it.

But now there's this whole new concept where, like, you know, you do have stable coins, you do have bitcoin.

The price of a bitcoin might fluctuate, but it's the same price everywhere in the world.

Yeah.

That's insane, man.

That's insane, right?

Like, the US dollar doesn't even hold the same price everywhere in the world.

Like the value of it in Mexico and the value of it in Europe and the value of it in Japan and the value of it in, you know, Nairobi is different just based on the currency exchange and the value of that currency and the importance of it there.

Now, it's still a US dollar so you're still going to have it.

But compared to the local currencies, there's this, there's this, there's this, there's going to be some type of loss.

Whereas with crypto, unless you're trying to convert it into something else, you typically don't experience that.

And that is, like, fascinating, but it's finite, right?

And the reason why you have that value that's kind of locked in is because it is this.

I mean, bitcoin, there can only be 21 million of them.

Yes, yes.

Right.

So that's it.

Like, there's not.

We can't make more bitcoin.

And so that's where digital, something that's digital, that's also finite.

That's like what it looks like at the massive level.

Now, the question I have, and I still have to this day, is like, you know, I don't think it's just going to be financial instruments.

Like, there's so many assets that are unbankable by nature that can be, I think, brought into the world of digital economies via nfts and other entities.

And I think the metaverse will solve for some of that.

But I think that this is where this stuff gets really fascinating.

And I think the technology has to catch up a little bit.

I think you need generative AI for a metaverse that really popular, or I think you need generative AI for a metaverse to really be a thing.

Because when you have generative AI, you can start to generate some of these assets, some of these things to fill up some of the spaces.

And it's really good at that.

I mean, even more recently, when we were looking at GPT 4.0, its ability to even make a GLB, which is the 3d object file that people use to fill out a video game or digital environment, you can generate these things now with a generative AI model.

Beforehand, I needed to get an artist and design it.

They needed to color it, do all these things, and then present you the file.

And it just wasn't an efficient way to do work at mass.

And so that's why video games take so long to build, is because they have to render out all these different objects and composites.

And so as that time is diminished because of generative AI, we're going to see some of these worlds just get transformed.

And a good example here is, again, I go back to Japan because there's a lot of qualms, but when we look at the future of technology, there are a lot of, they've already taken a lot of shots on goal.

And so they've got, you know, some pretty cool examples as it relates to the metaverse and ar.

They've got this VR world called hello Tokyo friends, and they've got a web, a web app called Tokyo Hunt.

Now, both of them are, I think you have to look at them both, because they both came out around the same times, and they both are doing something really cool in these digital spaces.

So hello Tokyo friends is a VR world.

So think of the metaverse as we've been describing it, placed where people go, put the headset on.

Okay, you've got hello Tokyo friends.

And then that VR world is based on Roblox, which is crazy, right?

Like, we talked about that in the book.

But like they said, let's just put this in Roblox.

And that gives people a space where they, they can, like, they can go and be interested about Japan and Tokyo, and they can connect and interact with people that also have that.

And you know what's funny is you have visitors, like, people from around the world coming in.

You've got locals in there, and now you have this connection where some people are sharing their expertise not only about where they live, but also learning about Japan and Tokyo.

And so that's an interesting point.

And that's on the metaverse side.

VR world, yes.

On the flip side, you've got Tokyo Hunt, which is a web app.

And this is a web app that you can use on your phone, your tablet, whatever, your iPad, however you want to do it.

Right?

And it can be used before and during your visit to Tokyo.

Now, what this does is it gives you a whole new way to experience Tokyo that combines basically your real world experience with the virtual.

And so they have, like, this AR camera function that allows you to take, like, let's just say, elevated postcards, right?

So you're, like, sightseeing in Tokyo, and you can bring these various characters to life.

And the, they only appear at various locations.

So when you go to Tokyo, in Shibuya, there's this famous statue.

It's called Hachiko, and a very interesting story.

But, you know, when you go to Hachiko statue, there's millions of people taking photos, literally every day of the statue.

You go there, and you have this, this Tokyo hunt app.

You can take your photo just like everybody else's, but now your photo has the cool, unique Ar filter built into it.

And so there's.

Cool.

There's, like, today these seem like, oh, yeah, that's cool.

It's cutesy.

It's whatever.

But fundamentally, these are some of the first steps towards kind of that world.

It's kind of like we go back to 2000.

In the earlier part of this conversation, we talked about QR codes.

Like, Japan was using QR codes in 2000 that was not new.

Like, they didn't have to make this massive shift for all their menus in order for people to get it, you know?

And so the point I'm making is, like, we can look elsewhere and say, like, oh, so that's how that might look.

And so the VR worlds, not much different than what we're doing here right now.

We put on Airpods, we put our computers, we get them ready, we go to LinkedIn, we go to X, we go to Instagram, and we just kind of talk.

In this 2d world.

The kids already are on Roblox.

The kids are already in Minecraft.

The kids already are in video games.

As you spoke, you know, grand trees mode.

You can't do it.

You get motion sickness.

Your boys will probably be great drivers because they had way more simulator time than anybody else.

And if you play GT seven, you know that, like, it's pretty.

It's pretty good.

It's pretty good.

Like, it's.

It's not.

It's not the same thing.

No, it's.

No, but as far as, like, you know, if you drive a pickup truck in GT seven and you get an actual pickup truck, it's the same kind of movements.

Yeah, yeah, it's pretty close.

Yeah.

So because of that, they will have a different understanding, a different perspective than many of us.

And so what we have to do is lay down some of the infrastructure so that way, the innovators of tomorrow can actually just step in and say, okay, this should be this or this should be that.

And I think Roblox has done a great job of growing with their users.

You know, if you were to talk to anybody at Roblox, probably just even seven years ago, they probably wouldn't ever thought that they would be in some of the places they are or have some of the economies that they have even within their video game.

And to see where that goes as they're.

As Gen Z and Gen Alpha both grow, is just going to be such a fascinating experiment.

And just experiment, because we literally don't know where this is going.

No, no.

And I think that's the crazy thing.

Right?

You know what I mean?

I'm a parent.

I have four boys, right?

Ten, eight, seven, and literally six months today.

So it's like they're.

They're a wide range, and you're right.

Like, they've been playing, you know, fortnite for probably the last three to four years.

Roblox, at least the last two years.

Right?

And they love that stuff.

Like, they love that stuff.

Like, to the point where they really love this.

And so for me, as a parent, like, me and you grew up in a completely different world.

You know, we had friends.

We played at the park.

We hung out with our friends after school.

Like, that was the things that we did.

And they're kind of doing those things in a different way.

And I think one of the struggles that I have, and I think a lot of parents is, like, how much should we let them live in the digital world versus the real world?

How do you balance it?

Because it feels impossible.

Well, see, the question I have there, I'm not a parent, but people ask me this question all the time.

It's like, should their kids have tablets?

Should they limit their device and screen time?

And what I say is, I get your concern.

It's a valid concern, but if you hold your kid back, you actually hinder the technological growth and development.

The thing here is, I think, you know, we have to change.

We have to adjust morals, and we have to address the integrity and how we train and teach integrity and also how we.

How we teach independence and trust.

Right?

Like, all of these things are that that's where I would start if I had a kid, is I would focus.

Okay, what is trust?

Right?

I trust that you have this device, and I trust that, you know, kind of the rules that we have.

Trust that you can be independent, because I can't always be there.

And, like, you know, like, we have to have a relationship where you have to manage kind of your own time.

Like, you have some responsibilities that you have to be accountable for, and that's going to grow as you develop and grow.

But, like, I like, it starts with this device.

Like, you have to take care of it.

You have to, like, understand, like, everything you see on it isn't real.

And then, like, morals, man.

Like, you know, the thing that young minds really need a lot of guidance for is, like, you know, sometimes you don't always want your kid to put their hand on the stove to see that it burns, right?

So I don't always want your kid to, like, be the kid that starts the fight and, like, pushes the kid and start, like, starts punching people.

You're like, well, why can't I do that?

It's like, you know, like, there's.

There's this.

There's this moral part, right?

Yeah.

So I think we have to look at that and then also realize that these devices, we're not.

You don't hear too many people complaining about, oh, the iPhone's bad, it's bad.

Piece of technology kids shouldn't hold.

It's always, oh, you know, online, you can have low self esteem, confidence, comparison, this, that, and the third.

So it's like the networks in what you expose the kids to also can be, you know, quite demeaning.

So it's like, you have to, like, be careful, because if you don't even expose them, like, let's say you don't let your kids get on Roblox because you're like, man, the kids on Roblox, they're talking crap, doing all that.

What's like, dude, let's go back to when we were kids, when we were riding our bikes.

What the fuck were we doing?

Yeah, excuse my language.

We need for speed talking smack.

We were talking so much shit and so much trash, right?

Like, were we holier than now?

Like, if we.

If we.

The problem is for them is it's documented.

It's like, this account stays with them.

So it's like, yeah, don't let your kid use their real name online.

I think that that's probably where it starts.

That's pretty fair.

Yeah.

Well, I think about it.

I actually agree with you completely, because it's like, look at the world we live in now.

Look how important a computer is.

Like, let's get real.

If you don't know how to use a computer, you're probably dead in the water.

Like, there's not, like, you have to use a computer.

But you're right.

If you never got those basic skills on how to use a computer, we.

You couldn't.

You couldn't interact today.

And I do kind of feel like if they're not able to use tablets, if they're not able to use VR, if they don't understand the rules of the next world, you are hindering them.

I guess the thing is, is it's also new.

We're not sure what that actually means long term.

Well, I mean, we have our own lives, right?

Like, I mean, you're.

You were savvy with the computers and Internet, and now you have an Internet podcast that allows you to get more distribution for your business.

Yes.

Et cetera.

Right?

So, yeah, I mean, had you not.

Have you.

Had you been a Luddite your whole life, and you're just like, I'm not going to use the Internet.

You probably wouldn't understand the benefits of podcasting, and there's still people today that are, like, anti podcasts.

I don't want to podcast.

I want this podcast.

I'm like, okay, that's cool.

But, like, the world's changed, right?

Even.

Even podcasts have shift.

Like, remember, I remember podcasts in 2006, like, when.

When they were on the ipod, and it was like, you remember when it was only had the scroll wheel and there was, like, a little thing, and it said podcast, and you click on it.

You said podcast on the ipod via iTunes, like, with the cord.

I remember podcast.

Then when Steve Jobs made it cool.

I'm a horrible example, dude.

Like, I didn't even, like, I remember that I didn't even start listening to podcasts till, like, 2015.

Like, I was so late.

The party, were you late?

Or.

I mean, the party's changed, right?

Or right on time was, like, radio.

Like, it captured and, like, spliced up and put on, like, people's ipods, right?

And then, like, you know, Joe Rogan was around in that time, but then, like, you know, very few people stuck with it even to see where it's at.

In 2024, it's 20 years, right?

So we talk about 20 years of podcasting, and we look at it.

I remember when podcasts didn't have sponsors.

Now you kind of look cooler if you have the break.

All right, now for a word from our.

From our sponsors.

Like, it, like, legitimizes the whole thing, which is wild.

It's like, we expect ads.

When the hell did we expect ads?

Like, we pay for.

We pay other people to take away ads.

If your podcast doesn't have ads, then your podcast kind of is like, no one's listening to this.

There's no ads.

Yeah.

Isn't it weird how that is?

It is, dude.

It's.

It's absolutely bonkers.

You know, one of the things, though, that I wanted to talk to you about is because, like I said, you have insights and ideas, and, you know, I mean, they're.

They're well put together in the book.

Like, the reality is, there's no way in this conversation that we could have ever touched on even a fraction of what is in the book.

So I do want our listeners to know, like, there's no way, like, this conversation is enough.

There's so much more.

Get the book.

For sure.

I really wrote the book as a vessel at which a decision maker can sit down with this and build at least a decent understanding of what the metaverse is and what it could mean.

I didn't get too technical as to, like, what was relevant at the time.

When I wrote it, tried to write it in a way where, you know, the major players, we knew who they were going to be and still have still pretty much all the same major players.

And we talked about that.

But what we really, really wanted to do is say, like, hey, if you're a decision maker at X Company, if you're a manager, if you've got your own business, if you've got a brand, if you've got, you know, some concept that you want to bring to life and you're trying to find an audience, I go in there and I literally say, this is what's upon this is, these are the possibilities that could, that could be on earth, and here are people that are doing it.

Like, it's more so it's like a book of case studies, if you ask me.

Right.

That's because, you know, we're telling you about what people are doing then, which is two years ago, you know, we're talking about virtual nail salons and screenshot documentarians and, like, it's crazy, like, how you think about it, but it's like the, I don't even think at the time when I wrote the book, some of those things that I talk about will go on to go even further.

So the movie that we talked about, the guy who was recording his screen, the guy I was recording the screen, he actually got a deal with HBO Max.

And so that video, the movie you can watch on Max, which is phenomenal.

Wow.

Wow.

Yeah, you're right.

It's evolving so quickly.

It's.

At that time, metaquest three wasn't out yet, obviously.

Like you said, the Apple vision Pro just came out.

Like.

Like, it's.

It's changing rapidly, but I guess that's it.

It's like, what does a business do?

Right?

Like, if I'm a business right now living in the meat world, as it's, as it's called in the book, which we all are for the most part, what.

What do we do, right?

Like, how do we take our first steps into the metaverse?

Like, what is your recommendation to companies that are still living in web two, they just have a website.

They have services or products that they're selling.

What should be the way in the door?

How do they start?

Like, is it just a little dibble dabble of time?

Is it buying a meta quest and experiencing VR?

What.

What is it?

What's the way forward?

So I was starting in VR today.

Let's just say, you know, I've got a brand?

What kind of brand?

Give me a.

Give me a brand.

Like, what kind of brand?

Okay, let's say that we're, we're a, we're a product company, and we sell consumer products.

You know, let's.

Let's just call it.

Let's call it.

We've been talking about a nail salon.

Let's.

Let's say that we're set.

We're selling nail polish.

Yeah, well, I mean, that examples in the book, right?

If I was at a nail salon, right?

I'll answer the product company, and I'll answer the nail salon.

So the nail salon.

We already talked about that in the book.

The, the point here is, if you're a nail, if you are a nail tech and you do nails, it's finite.

The amount of people you can see in a day, the amount of money you could make.

Even if you have all the demand in the world, you can only have x amount of people that come to your salon that you serve.

So the way you scale, that is, you get, you take the brand, you expand it, you hire more nail techs, you serve more customers, you grow kind of your expenses on the hope that you would actually be able to fulfill the demand through the already existing clientele and more.

On the flip side, right, when we talked about it in the metaverse, you had Ck, who was a nail designer, who was really good at what she does.

She's doing celebrity nails by day and by night.

She's selling the designs that she's making for these celebrities, for people that have, you know, ult, like, you know, their costumes in Decentraland, so they're, like, going around, and they're like, okay, I look good, blah, blah, blah.

I got my wings.

I got my, my headpiece.

I got all that.

My avatar is dipped out.

I want some nails.

Ck's got you.

And she's selling them for actual cryptocurrency.

And so now you're starting to amass even some profits.

And that's 24/7 she makes a 250 nail set.

Collections there, sell them for whatever.

Then, you know, the cool thing about the digital space is, you know, you can do interesting things with royalties.

So even after those 250 sell out, if there's more continued transactions, depending on how the contract set up, she can also get, you know, royalties from all the sales.

And then also if the demand and rarities are done right and, like, the volumes kind of, like, being addressed, like, people are actually buying your stuff.

What happens then is you can also, you can benefit pretty well in the sense that I'm trying to think how I would describe this in a sense that, like, you can keep releasing collections and, like, you know, now you're building a brand that exists beyond you.

So, like, that's what we talked about in the book.

On the flip side, I mean, talk about the product, the product company that you were asking me about.

If I'm in 2020 forward and I'm like, okay, what does the metaverse look like for us and our company?

There's like two questions I have to ask myself.

The first question is, like, no one, how do you see the metaverse?

Like, so if I'm a fitness brand, maybe I do go lean towards, like, or a fitness product, I should say if I'm a fitness product.

I mean, Meta's done a good job selling these quest headsets.

There's a lot of people that's got them.

If you can, if you can figure out a way to, like, basically make your product relevant with the quest headphone platform, I'm sure meta will be calling you because that's, like, what they're looking for right now.

So if I had a fitness product or something and I knew I could make, like, the, putting the headset on cool and we could make some cool content around it and we could, we could make it so that it was fly.

Like, you know, that's an easy growth lever right now.

Like, there's going to be someone that does that the same way you remember, I mean, think about iPhone cases.

Think about how Otterbox, like, just built the whole company and a brand.

Like, obviously they existed before the iPhone.

I want to.

Let's make that clear.

The Otterbox company existed before the iPhone.

But I.

You remember the iPod.

You remember the iPhone.

You remember what Otterbox did then.

You're in Canada too, right?

Yes.

Yeah.

So I'm using a canadian company.

You remember that?

That was, that was the, that was the, that was it.

That was the Dundada for like 1015 years.

You remember that?

Yes, yes.

No, like, hell, Otterbox is still a brand name around here.

That's my point.

Right?

And it came up off the, like, they literally paired themselves with the iPod and the iPhone and they ran that thing.

But, like, that's what I would do is like, you already have hundreds of millions of these devices and homes.

If you've got a fitness brand and you know that this thing is being used for that.

Make a cover for the inside so sweat doesn't get on it.

You can probably get those online for really cheap, get it from China, brand it, whatever so include that with your product.

Now it's like, hey, this is the, this is the Oculus face plate faceplate.

It's for your or not oculus.

This is the quest faceplate.

You put it on, you do your thing and you use our product, whether it be bands, whether it be hula hoops.

Now the thing you hear is like you've got to make sure it actually makes sense and you don't want to hurt anybody.

So you've got to like, like, safety concerns are important and massively it should be, should be addressed.

But once you get past that, let's come back around and we say, all right, we've gotten, we've gotten that figured out.

Let's say you're a CPG or a consumer product, good company like you, we don't make fitness.

What does it look like?

Well then I wouldn't probably look at like the meta Quest platform.

I would probably look at something similar to my example earlier when I was talking about the AR world and like the digital postcards in Tokyo.

I would probably do something where it's web based.

So I see a lot of, I think Jones soda, they did a cool activation with like QR codes.

Ironically enough, we just scan the QR code and you have like this AR experience.

And there's like some new formats too that Apple's made.

It's called what is Apple's format?

Is it FbX?

I don't think it's FBX.

It'll come to me in a second.

Apple has a 3d format that actually can be transferred through iMessage.

So as you start to think about elevating your marketing experiences, maybe instead of switching to email, everyone's always doing email marketing.

Maybe I switched to imessage for business.

And we take the people's information and then when we send them a follow up message, we send them this cool ar component that they can then go and take their own photos with the digital postcard.

And you got to remember, the adoption there is going to be a little bit slower.

But because you got away from the Facebooks and the Instagrams and the TikToks and the Snapchats, you're taking the filter experience and you're doing it one to one.

You're not going to get the same scale.

If someone uses your AR chat filter experience on Instagram, there's a massive scale.

But if you want the brand recognition and you want people to see you as a more authentic and forward leaning brand, well, you probably want to own that experience.

So I think what's cool there is.

We see the benefits of that with Ikea and even Amazon, right?

Like, in their apps, you can go and view what certain products look like at your home.

At your home.

Yeah, that's cool, right?

With the Apple Vision Pro now, right?

Like, if I'm telling stories and I have a brand, let's say I'm a coach, I might make, like, an Apple Vision Pro app, right?

Even if I have to, for, like, for be on the forefront today and, like, figure it out on the cost side, right?

You know, do that, but position yourself, like, brand with the product.

Say, like, you know, you can't.

I can't be there with you all the time for my.

I don't know, let's just say my platinum package users, I actually have an Apple Vision Pro app.

If you buy the platinum version of this, we actually send you the Apple Vision Pro, so you don't even have to worry about the cost there.

You get an Apple Vision Pro from us, and we tell it.

We give you a code for the app, you install the app, and everything that you have that you've done in your coaching platform with us is there.

It's accessible, and it has these AI coaches, myself included, blah, blah, blah.

It sounds crazy, but you can build that now and then you grow with it.

As the technology gets better, maybe the coaches can only have, you know, so much memory or so much, can access so much, or maybe can only have one coach, and if you can have two, we already kind of have that.

When you think about.

If you.

When you use the Apple vision Pro, they have, like, these holographic people.

I call them Personas that, like, float in the space with you.

So it's like FaceTime on steroids.

It looks a little uncanny valley, as people call it.

But, like, I actually.

I didn't like it, so it's not something I.

You see me doing all the time.

I did buy an Apple vision pro.

It was cool, but it was too heavy and it gave me a headache.

Like, that was the one device where it wasn't that I was motion six.

It was just like, this thing was, like, heavy.

It was, like, heavy.

And so I had to let it go.

But, you know, there's a thing where, you know, some people are going to say that, but there's going to be some people that just haven't tried it and some people that are going to be just mesmerized by the fact that you gave them this headset, and so that that touch point becomes an activation.

And then what you have to do is you have to learn from all these different activations what's actually going to be the sensation that goes viral and creates this unprecedented moment for your brand to really shine through.

And it's a really hard challenge.

Roblox has done a great job of it.

Unity's done pretty decent.

Apple obviously has had some moments.

Meta has had some moments.

When you start to go down the pathway, it's still so early.

The industry is nascent as far as what it's actually going to be in the next 1015 years.

Yeah, like what really what you're saying at the end of the day is just do something.

Just start thinking about what you can do to play in this new field so that, so that you're ahead of the curve, not behind.

Yeah, get active.

But like, you know, if you go to chapter nine in the book, I got your metaverse playing.

That's right.

Check it out.

You know, there's a lot more in depth information there and it's easy read.

I mean, you can probably read this book in my like a week, not even.

I did it in three days.

So, yeah, just depends how badly you want to read it.

Well, I wrote it that way.

Right.

I try, when I write, I like to write books in nine chapters or less.

Like I have two books that don't fit that, but one, like one by like two, like three more chapters than nine.

And the other just, that was my first book, so I didn't know.

Also like try to like leverage all the time.

Like if you, if someone's going to take the time and read and read with you or read something you wrote, you try to make sure that all those words are accommodating to their talk because, you know, there's so many things you could do.

You could listen to a podcast, you can watch a YouTube video, you could be with your kids, you could go to take a class, you could go, you know, hang out with friends.

There's just so many different things that are calling our attention.

And so I really try to make sure when I write a book, we go and publish it, that every word kind of counts as best as we can make it happen.

Yeah, no, absolutely, absolutely.

And it was, honestly, it was an easy read.

Like, I really enjoyed the read.

There was nothing about it that was like, ah, this is, it wasn't boring by any means.

So you did a great job in the way that you did it.

Where can people get the Metaverse handbook?

I, you know, mean, I got it off Amazon, but yeah, Amazon today for.

All for all authors accounts for about 80% of all our sales.

So go ahead, support either Amazon.com.

we still works.

Otherwise most local bookstores are going to carry our book.

It's published by Wiley, so we do get the benefits of being with the actual publisher.

Where most bookstores you can get it.

If they don't have it on the store shelves, they can always order it and get it to you.

Most people that buy books that way are just trying to support some of their local bookshops or other establishments that aren't Amazon.

I get it both ways, but from an ease and convenience standpoint, tell you to go to themetaversehandbook.com or metaversehandbook.com, actually, and we also have a few retailers there as well.

Perfect.

I will make sure that I link that in all of our social posts that go along with this.

So if you're hearing this, just come check out all of our socials and the show notes and you'll be able to find it.

When we were talking, obviously, we spent some time, we were talking about Japan a little bit.

One of the other organizations you work with is learnjapanese.com dot.

That's correct, yes.

You see, some of the stuff in my background working with Sonosuke and team over there to really make Japanese a lot less boring.

You know, it doesn't have to be so scary and boring to learn.

And what I found when I was starting to, like, just get in, engrossed in all the different vessels at which you can start to learn Japanese, there was nothing that was really resonating with me on a, on a personal level.

The same way, like when you read that metaverse handbook, it has to be captivating.

And that's how you finish the book.

Japanese Washington.

It was very much starting to become something that was a chore and not, not fun.

And so I worked with my japanese teacher to create an experience known as learnjapanese.com, where we have this program called Nihon 123 where we literally make learning Japanese as simple as one, two, three, and it's fun all the way through and throughout, we're still building it.

So, you know, the people that are joining us now get a chance to see what, you know, it, what it's like as an entrepreneur, as you start off with, like, you know, your first couple hundred users to hopefully, you know, whatever the masses could be.

So we're always open to feedback.

If there's anybody that wants to learn Japanese, you know, we're always willing to accept it.

And if you listen to this podcast, I mean, we can figure out a way to get you a code or something.

Amazing.

Amazing, man.

Like, I can't tell you how much I appreciate you coming on the show and sharing that with us, dude.

Like, we could have talked.

Like, the reality is we didn't even get into, you're a marketing expert, too.

Like, we didn't even really get into that.

And I feel like at another time I would to have you back and have that conversation with you because I'm sure there's lots to talk about there.

But, you know, the reality is, what you're doing is super important and honestly, something that not a lot of people know.

Like, there's not a lot of people like you, Q Harrison.

So I really appreciate you coming on and sharing your knowledge with us today.

Thanks for having me.

And it was cool to be able to talk about the future.

I think one thing even more relevant to this conversation than anything else is if you want to know my thoughts on the future, there has never been a better time.

You can go to everydays.

WTF?

And you will actually see that every day.

I ask myself, what's the future?

And I take detailed notes and I store them in a journal.

That journal is open source.

Anyone can access it.

They can view it.

It's free.

I don't charge for it.

And it's a beautiful experience because you get a chance to see some of these nodes or some of these, these shifts as they're happening in real time.

And, you know, I'm just usually capturing, like, kind of notes and highlights.

But we're going to get to a point where I start to actually do more presentations.

The first one will be later in June, and I'll kind of take some, all of my notes and show you, like, kind of how I see it.

And that that's going to be a cool experience.

So we're working on that on the back end.

And then also, like, I mean, it's through the books and stuff.

You get to see the note cards before they become note cards because this is the same notebook that I use when I go and write a, and in many ways, I open up the writing room.

So if you have thoughts on something or you have questions, at the end of all those notes is the comment section.

And there's people that come and they ask questions, and guess what?

I respond.

It's my notebook.

So one of the easiest ways to get in contact with me if you're looking to learn more about future thinking and just how these shifts in AI are going to transform a lot of different industries or even things about the metaverse.

I still publish a lot of stuff there.

And cool thing too, is you can search too.

So if you type in metaverse, you can see all the notes that I have, or you type in something you're interested in.

You can see kind of what I thought was fascinating as it stood.

And this is something I've been doing for almost 13 years.

But we're right now in our, maybe this is our second year, third or second year where it's open source.

So I had the idea a few years back, and then it took some time to get a processing system that was like pretty reliable and down and like, it was easy to just maintain.

And now we're there and it's simple, like, just come check it every day and you'll always learn something.

You'll always see something amazing.

Perfect.

Well, I will make sure that the link for that is also in all of our show notes and posts.

So if you're listening to this and you're getting it, you'll just be able to find it wherever you're listening.

So we're good to go, dude.

Once, once again, total honor.

Thank you for joining us.

We've been joined by Hugh Harrison Terry, and he gave us all the tips on the future here.

And if you want to move forward, you definitely need to check out the metaverse.

Appreciate it.

Until next time.

This has been the business development podcast and we will catch you on the flip side.

This has been the business development podcast with Kelly Kennedy.

Kelly has 15 years in sales and business development experience within the Alberta oil and gas industry and founded his own business development firm in 2020 2020.

His passion and his specialization is in customer relationship generation and business development.

The show is brought to you by capital business development, your business development specialists.

For more we invite you to the website at www.

Dot Capitalbd dot ca.

See you next time on the business development podcast.

It.