1 00:00:08,430 --> 00:00:14,610 Claire Bown: Hello and welcome to The Art Engager podcast with me, Claire Bown. 2 00:00:15,090 --> 00:00:19,200 I'm here to share techniques and tools to help you engage with your audience 3 00:00:19,290 --> 00:00:22,740 and bring art objects and ideas to life. 4 00:00:23,940 --> 00:00:25,410 So let's dive into this week's show. 5 00:00:28,889 --> 00:00:32,849 Hello, and welcome to a new episode of The Art Engager. 6 00:00:33,180 --> 00:00:38,010 I'm Claire Bown, and today I'm chatting with Tina Demirdjian, a poet 7 00:00:38,070 --> 00:00:43,349 and educator who has spent over 30 years transforming how people connect 8 00:00:43,530 --> 00:00:46,080 with both poetry and visual art. 9 00:00:46,800 --> 00:00:50,850 But before we dive in, I just want to share a quick note. 10 00:00:51,240 --> 00:00:56,040 If you found my resources such as this podcast, the free downloads on 11 00:00:56,040 --> 00:01:01,380 my website, or my blog helpful and would like to support my work, you can 12 00:01:01,380 --> 00:01:06,840 become a friend of The Art Engager on Patreon, or you could pick up a copy 13 00:01:06,930 --> 00:01:13,200 of my book, The Art Engager Reimagining Guided Experiences in Museums. 14 00:01:13,575 --> 00:01:15,285 Thank you for your support. 15 00:01:16,125 --> 00:01:18,405 Now let me introduce today's guest. 16 00:01:19,065 --> 00:01:23,505 Tina Demirdjian is a poet and educator who has been teaching poetry in 17 00:01:23,505 --> 00:01:26,055 Los Angeles for more than 30 years. 18 00:01:26,535 --> 00:01:29,115 Tina's someone who in her own words. 19 00:01:29,380 --> 00:01:35,259 Changes people's minds specifically about poetry, about themselves, and about their 20 00:01:35,259 --> 00:01:38,020 relationship to creative expression. 21 00:01:38,470 --> 00:01:43,270 Tina works in schools, museums, and businesses with a focus on second language 22 00:01:43,270 --> 00:01:45,729 learners and immigrant communities. 23 00:01:46,515 --> 00:01:49,244 Now, Tina didn't expect to become a poet. 24 00:01:49,695 --> 00:01:55,185 In her late twenties, she volunteered at a community center where a poet invited 25 00:01:55,185 --> 00:02:00,524 her to try writing that first poem excited her so much, she had to stop on 26 00:02:00,524 --> 00:02:03,225 the freeway to write down more lines. 27 00:02:03,794 --> 00:02:08,055 Now she brings that same excitement to her workshops, believing she can 28 00:02:08,055 --> 00:02:13,245 change people's minds about poetry and help them discover they can write. 29 00:02:14,580 --> 00:02:19,230 Tina works with museums and cultural institutions, including running artful 30 00:02:19,230 --> 00:02:21,570 conversations at the Brand library. 31 00:02:21,930 --> 00:02:26,190 She's particularly interested in how museums create different atmospheres 32 00:02:26,430 --> 00:02:28,320 that support creative work. 33 00:02:28,620 --> 00:02:33,330 Tina also trains young poets to facilitate workshops in their communities. 34 00:02:34,280 --> 00:02:38,720 Now in our conversation, we explore how visual arts can serve as a 35 00:02:38,720 --> 00:02:44,120 bridge into creative writing, why museums provide unique environments 36 00:02:44,270 --> 00:02:49,430 for this kind of work and practical approaches like using curator texts 37 00:02:49,430 --> 00:02:52,670 and artwork titles as poetry prompts. 38 00:02:53,100 --> 00:02:57,690 We discuss what makes museum spaces different from classrooms for creative 39 00:02:57,690 --> 00:03:02,190 expression, and how Tina's methods can help engage diverse audiences, 40 00:03:02,190 --> 00:03:04,440 including English language learners. 41 00:03:04,860 --> 00:03:09,930 This episode is perfect if you are curious about incorporating poetry 42 00:03:09,930 --> 00:03:16,080 into museum programming or want practical ideas for using art to unlock 43 00:03:16,080 --> 00:03:18,990 creative expression in your visitors. 44 00:03:19,440 --> 00:03:20,160 Enjoy. 45 00:03:21,524 --> 00:03:24,885 Hi, Tina, and welcome to The Art Engager Podcast. 46 00:03:25,545 --> 00:03:27,015 Tina Demirdjian: Thank you so much, Claire. 47 00:03:27,015 --> 00:03:28,515 It's such a pleasure to be here. 48 00:03:28,635 --> 00:03:30,734 Well, I'm delighted you could join us here. 49 00:03:30,765 --> 00:03:33,355 So could you tell us who you are and what you do? 50 00:03:35,135 --> 00:03:36,185 It's so interesting. 51 00:03:36,185 --> 00:03:40,355 I've thought about sometimes how I even wanna answer this question at times. 52 00:03:41,645 --> 00:03:46,234 One, I am a poet and I've been writing poetry and teaching poetry for more 53 00:03:46,234 --> 00:03:52,055 than 30 years in Los Angeles, in schools, museums, and businesses. 54 00:03:52,655 --> 00:03:57,905 But the other part of that answer is I change people's minds. 55 00:03:58,685 --> 00:04:05,915 I change people's minds about poetry, Sometimes really about themselves and 56 00:04:05,915 --> 00:04:11,495 their relation to poetry and their relation to others, and that's how 57 00:04:11,495 --> 00:04:17,825 I like to see myself, somebody who allows someone else to be surprised 58 00:04:18,394 --> 00:04:20,075 about themselves and others. 59 00:04:21,725 --> 00:04:22,174 Claire Bown: I love that. 60 00:04:22,174 --> 00:04:26,195 That's a really beautiful way of describing yourself and the work 61 00:04:26,195 --> 00:04:30,035 that you do, and obviously that's the reason I invited you on the podcast. 62 00:04:30,395 --> 00:04:33,395 We had a lovely initial chat when I was in LA. 63 00:04:33,815 --> 00:04:33,905 Yes. 64 00:04:33,905 --> 00:04:37,955 We talked about your work and how it relates to art to museums, the 65 00:04:37,955 --> 00:04:39,995 work you do in schools as well. 66 00:04:40,295 --> 00:04:45,245 So can you tell us a little bit about how you ended up where you are today? 67 00:04:47,585 --> 00:04:52,205 Tina Demirdjian: I will try to make this concise because this story sometimes 68 00:04:52,205 --> 00:04:56,855 becomes long, but I can say that it happens in a couple of different ways. 69 00:04:57,125 --> 00:05:01,175 First, it was the journey just writing poetry, which is the 70 00:05:01,175 --> 00:05:03,755 last thing I ever expected to do. 71 00:05:03,815 --> 00:05:06,305 This is why I love to teach poetry. 72 00:05:06,815 --> 00:05:09,795 This was not on my radar in my late twenties. 73 00:05:10,395 --> 00:05:14,385 And so I was interested, however, in community centers 74 00:05:14,385 --> 00:05:17,835 and folklore and storytelling. 75 00:05:18,285 --> 00:05:23,185 And so I happened to go to a community center named Homeland 76 00:05:23,185 --> 00:05:27,625 Neighborhood Cultural Center, and I wanted to volunteer my time. 77 00:05:28,045 --> 00:05:29,755 I had already graduated college. 78 00:05:29,755 --> 00:05:32,755 I was taking some classes at UCLA, had just moved to the 79 00:05:32,755 --> 00:05:35,395 west coast from Washington, DC. 80 00:05:36,585 --> 00:05:38,565 And I thought, I'll volunteer. 81 00:05:38,925 --> 00:05:43,275 And there was a poet in residence and he said, why don't you come up 82 00:05:43,275 --> 00:05:45,225 and write poetry with us tonight? 83 00:05:45,705 --> 00:05:48,675 And I thought, I don't write poetry, but I stayed. 84 00:05:49,485 --> 00:05:55,785 I wrote, I even took the freeway home, which was a seven 10 freeway to get 85 00:05:55,785 --> 00:06:02,115 home to Arcadia where my parents lived, and I was so desperate to stop on the 86 00:06:02,115 --> 00:06:04,795 freeway to write a line of a poem. 87 00:06:06,355 --> 00:06:07,665 And excited. 88 00:06:07,705 --> 00:06:09,615 and I thought, what is happening? 89 00:06:09,735 --> 00:06:10,665 What is happening? 90 00:06:11,265 --> 00:06:13,395 This is not happened to me before. 91 00:06:13,965 --> 00:06:19,425 And so it is with that excitement that I really show up every time I teach. 92 00:06:20,025 --> 00:06:25,185 It's so palpable those moments that I was waiting to stop on the freeway and 93 00:06:25,215 --> 00:06:29,055 instead I did wait to get off at the exit and sat at the seven 11 parking 94 00:06:29,055 --> 00:06:33,255 lot, which perhaps wasn't also a very great idea, but I couldn't help it. 95 00:06:33,255 --> 00:06:35,685 At that point, my life had changed. 96 00:06:37,215 --> 00:06:42,735 The other part that brings me to what I do though, is when I came across a 97 00:06:42,735 --> 00:06:47,175 poet and just approached him and let him know how much I liked his work. 98 00:06:47,175 --> 00:06:52,995 It was my first poetry reading actually, and he said, I liked your work too. 99 00:06:52,995 --> 00:06:54,375 Have you thought about teaching? 100 00:06:54,435 --> 00:06:55,695 And I said, teaching? 101 00:06:56,055 --> 00:06:57,795 I've been writing for three months. 102 00:06:58,035 --> 00:07:03,015 I started to laugh and he said, well, when you are ready, come and find me. 103 00:07:04,365 --> 00:07:08,955 And immediately I understood when I went home that night 104 00:07:09,195 --> 00:07:10,695 that I needed to find him again. 105 00:07:11,775 --> 00:07:18,375 And as luck would have it, or as serendipity occurs, we were asked to be 106 00:07:18,375 --> 00:07:20,115 in the same performance group together. 107 00:07:21,615 --> 00:07:29,325 And so started my journey in thinking of myself, not only as a poet, but 108 00:07:29,325 --> 00:07:33,735 also as someone who taught poetry, even though it was my beginnings. 109 00:07:35,385 --> 00:07:39,825 And I wanna add this other part that's important to me because how I got to 110 00:07:40,275 --> 00:07:48,540 connecting it with visual art, which is really important, is that, when I 111 00:07:48,540 --> 00:07:54,000 finally started reaching out to school districts and connecting with people 112 00:07:54,270 --> 00:07:56,750 to find out how am I gonna do this job? 113 00:07:56,780 --> 00:07:58,520 How will I teach poetry? 114 00:07:58,730 --> 00:08:00,200 Where am I gonna teach it? 115 00:08:01,010 --> 00:08:06,050 I came across this woman, Lila Silver, who worked for LA Unified School District, 116 00:08:06,050 --> 00:08:13,070 and she worked for the Emergency Immigrant Education Program, EIEP, and she said to 117 00:08:13,070 --> 00:08:20,350 me, ' I would like to use poetry to work with second language learners because 118 00:08:20,350 --> 00:08:25,030 so many of the gifted and talented students, which is GATE, which is a 119 00:08:25,030 --> 00:08:29,410 program in the United States for gifted and talented education, would bring 120 00:08:29,410 --> 00:08:35,465 poetry to those students, but I think my students should have access to that.' 121 00:08:36,805 --> 00:08:43,045 That's really where my journey as an educator began working 122 00:08:43,045 --> 00:08:44,665 with second language learners. 123 00:08:44,965 --> 00:08:48,475 And then I had to think, well, how am I gonna do this? 124 00:08:48,865 --> 00:08:50,380 How am I gonna connect with these students? 125 00:08:52,495 --> 00:08:57,385 Remembered all the postcards I had from my travels in England and in 126 00:08:57,385 --> 00:08:59,365 Europe at the time in the eighties. 127 00:09:00,115 --> 00:09:02,605 And I would love to collect all these postcards. 128 00:09:02,605 --> 00:09:05,275 And remember back then people actually wrote you postcards. 129 00:09:05,275 --> 00:09:05,965 Absolutely. 130 00:09:07,165 --> 00:09:12,385 So, so I had postcards also that I had kept, and so I 131 00:09:12,385 --> 00:09:14,095 thought I'll start using art. 132 00:09:15,625 --> 00:09:18,325 And that's how I started to be connected. 133 00:09:18,955 --> 00:09:21,415 With art and poetry as well. 134 00:09:22,255 --> 00:09:26,010 Claire Bown: And you mentioned there that you use these postcards that you 135 00:09:26,070 --> 00:09:30,420 had been collecting for many years and use that as a bridge To get students 136 00:09:30,580 --> 00:09:35,165 English language learners, second language learners into writing poetry. 137 00:09:35,465 --> 00:09:42,035 But what is it, do you think about visual art that makes it so powerful for 138 00:09:42,035 --> 00:09:44,975 poetry writing for creative expression? 139 00:09:46,445 --> 00:09:50,315 Tina Demirdjian: Well, first of all, I think it's part of creating 140 00:09:50,315 --> 00:09:56,255 the ease that I talk about because it gives everyone something to see. 141 00:09:56,315 --> 00:10:00,965 And when I teach, I notice that when, even though I talk about the five 142 00:10:00,965 --> 00:10:05,650 senses, the one that most people connect with is what they see. 143 00:10:07,010 --> 00:10:12,560 So right away the art, whether it's the postcard or it's actually 144 00:10:12,560 --> 00:10:18,830 in the museum gallery, people can start to feel at ease when I start 145 00:10:18,830 --> 00:10:21,410 to ask them questions about simile. 146 00:10:21,540 --> 00:10:25,800 I talk about what simile is: comparing to things using 'like an as'. 147 00:10:26,115 --> 00:10:29,115 And at first they might not know what the word means, but they 148 00:10:29,115 --> 00:10:34,305 use it all the time in their own language or they've heard similes. 149 00:10:34,545 --> 00:10:39,735 So right away the art itself has all the senses. 150 00:10:39,765 --> 00:10:43,965 Even if it doesn't have the music playing, I can play with the idea of 151 00:10:43,965 --> 00:10:45,675 what music do you think is playing? 152 00:10:45,945 --> 00:10:49,005 What instrument do you hear in that painting? 153 00:10:49,770 --> 00:10:54,180 If that painting, if that woman in the painting were to ask you 154 00:10:54,180 --> 00:10:56,070 a question, what would it be? 155 00:10:56,310 --> 00:10:59,460 So right away there's that connectivity. 156 00:10:59,940 --> 00:11:04,960 And I think that sometimes, we're not used to having the opportunity 157 00:11:04,960 --> 00:11:07,610 to connect, especially in this age. 158 00:11:07,610 --> 00:11:13,460 Like we're connecting on screen on our phones all the time, but how are 159 00:11:13,460 --> 00:11:15,440 we thinking about what we're seeing? 160 00:11:16,130 --> 00:11:18,890 And so this gives everyone a chance to open up. 161 00:11:20,510 --> 00:11:21,890 Claire Bown: I love the sound of that. 162 00:11:21,920 --> 00:11:26,970 I think it's very powerful using art as a bridge, as a prompt, 163 00:11:27,030 --> 00:11:31,920 as a way of kind of opening up the creative process as it were. 164 00:11:31,920 --> 00:11:37,020 But how do you think that looking at art really changes the process of writing 165 00:11:37,320 --> 00:11:43,260 poetry compared to all the other sorts of prompts and other exercises we might do? 166 00:11:43,260 --> 00:11:45,810 What's so special about looking at art? 167 00:11:46,920 --> 00:11:49,720 Tina Demirdjian: Well, it is certainly one thing to look at the 168 00:11:49,720 --> 00:11:52,180 postcard in the classroom, right? 169 00:11:52,180 --> 00:11:56,710 And it's another thing to look at the painting or the artwork, sculpture, 170 00:11:56,710 --> 00:11:59,140 whatever it may be in the museum. 171 00:11:59,680 --> 00:12:02,230 So I will say a couple of things about that. 172 00:12:02,230 --> 00:12:03,820 First, I'll start with a postcard. 173 00:12:05,170 --> 00:12:08,410 I have forgotten about this story until just now. 174 00:12:09,670 --> 00:12:12,940 So I had been working in this middle school for many years. 175 00:12:14,155 --> 00:12:18,115 And the principal wanted me to work with her teachers as a 176 00:12:18,115 --> 00:12:20,005 professional development opportunity. 177 00:12:21,355 --> 00:12:24,415 And funny thing about teachers, me being one of them too, by 178 00:12:24,415 --> 00:12:25,975 the way, is we talk a lot. 179 00:12:26,545 --> 00:12:31,945 And so they, the middle school students, they taught were more well 180 00:12:31,945 --> 00:12:35,395 behaved than the teachers were in that classroom where I was working. 181 00:12:35,695 --> 00:12:36,625 I love teachers. 182 00:12:36,695 --> 00:12:42,185 No, nothing bad about teachers, but I thought, why are they talking so much? 183 00:12:42,185 --> 00:12:47,495 It just seemed a little extra, and then I noticed there was one ringleader that 184 00:12:47,495 --> 00:12:49,325 was causing a little bit of the commotion. 185 00:12:50,930 --> 00:12:55,640 And so I had already given out the postcards and at this point I was walking 186 00:12:55,640 --> 00:12:57,810 around, trying to connect with everybody. 187 00:12:58,320 --> 00:13:02,640 So I get to her and I wonder what's happening. 188 00:13:02,730 --> 00:13:07,140 So I see the first line she has, and I can't remember the first 189 00:13:07,140 --> 00:13:11,070 line, but I remember thinking, oh, that's a good first line. 190 00:13:11,070 --> 00:13:12,360 Can you tell me about that? 191 00:13:12,600 --> 00:13:19,680 I ask her, and in the meantime, even while I'm talking with her, she's trying to 192 00:13:19,680 --> 00:13:22,020 communicate with the others around her. 193 00:13:24,180 --> 00:13:30,390 And she has a Rembrandt in front of her and she says to me as she's speaking, 194 00:13:30,930 --> 00:13:38,610 well, she says, 'all this reminds me of is the muddiness during Katrina'. 195 00:13:40,260 --> 00:13:46,050 And Katrina, I don't know if you recall, was devastating in New Orleans. 196 00:13:46,635 --> 00:13:54,285 She was someone who had come to Los Angeles after her place was destroyed, and 197 00:13:54,285 --> 00:13:58,065 I thought, yes, this is what's happening. 198 00:13:58,785 --> 00:14:05,385 And of course, she stopped talking after that, she started to write and she had 199 00:14:05,385 --> 00:14:07,065 the most powerful piece in the room. 200 00:14:09,855 --> 00:14:13,305 It was not just the poetry, it was the image. 201 00:14:13,395 --> 00:14:14,625 It was the painting. 202 00:14:14,700 --> 00:14:17,520 It was the colors Rembrandt used. 203 00:14:17,970 --> 00:14:24,960 Because you see, I think language is memory, and memory is language. 204 00:14:25,980 --> 00:14:31,770 So that connectivity happens on many levels when we're dealing both with 205 00:14:31,770 --> 00:14:35,580 poetry and with visual art, with art. 206 00:14:36,840 --> 00:14:39,630 No matter what kind it is, there's something in the 207 00:14:39,630 --> 00:14:41,360 movement of some of peace. 208 00:14:41,780 --> 00:14:47,090 There's something in the color that's used, or maybe it's a painting of 209 00:14:47,090 --> 00:14:51,500 an image that is familiar because it reminds you of someone you know. 210 00:14:52,490 --> 00:15:01,880 So right away I believe that the artwork is actually creating a sense of ease. 211 00:15:02,630 --> 00:15:08,900 Even if it might, in this woman's case, create tension as well. 212 00:15:09,890 --> 00:15:10,310 Right. 213 00:15:10,550 --> 00:15:13,870 But, something I heard, which I hadn't heard before, is 214 00:15:14,380 --> 00:15:16,270 tension helps create change. 215 00:15:18,490 --> 00:15:23,410 Even like the I, the simple idea of if you wanna shoot a rubber band across the room. 216 00:15:24,175 --> 00:15:26,065 You have to create tension first. 217 00:15:26,425 --> 00:15:27,295 I remember hearing that. 218 00:15:27,295 --> 00:15:29,095 'cause at first I didn't understand what it meant. 219 00:15:30,295 --> 00:15:34,120 And so that is part of what happens when you use art. 220 00:15:35,215 --> 00:15:39,235 Claire Bown: Yeah, and I've seen it so many times over the years working with 221 00:15:39,755 --> 00:15:44,675 objects as well as artworks in different types of museums and the different 222 00:15:44,725 --> 00:15:53,905 connections and links and stories that those artworks are able to surface 223 00:15:53,905 --> 00:15:58,605 from people that are so unexpected a lot of the time, not connections 224 00:15:58,605 --> 00:16:00,345 that you would imagine to happen. 225 00:16:00,945 --> 00:16:04,215 And you mentioned there about there is a difference between doing this kind 226 00:16:04,215 --> 00:16:08,055 of work in a classroom with a postcard and being in a museum environment. 227 00:16:08,055 --> 00:16:10,725 So I'd like just to talk about that a little bit. 228 00:16:10,725 --> 00:16:12,015 So Absolutely. 229 00:16:12,025 --> 00:16:18,205 What is it about being in the museum that really supports the creative process? 230 00:16:19,645 --> 00:16:21,495 Tina Demirdjian: So, when you're in the classroom. 231 00:16:22,200 --> 00:16:24,240 You might see the artwork 232 00:16:26,670 --> 00:16:30,720 in a very clear way, but you might not because you're distracted by 233 00:16:30,720 --> 00:16:36,490 your peers, the bell going off the clock ticking, you have all of 234 00:16:36,490 --> 00:16:38,620 that happening in the classroom. 235 00:16:38,980 --> 00:16:45,590 And I still get the poems out of them, but what in the museum? 236 00:16:46,910 --> 00:16:53,650 You, this is my opinion, of course, you are entering what I consider 237 00:16:53,980 --> 00:16:58,960 sacred space because there's a certain hum in the museum. 238 00:16:58,960 --> 00:17:01,330 The hum is different than what's in the classroom. 239 00:17:02,050 --> 00:17:05,860 The hum in the museum is about people whispering. 240 00:17:06,520 --> 00:17:08,770 It's about a certain level of light. 241 00:17:09,955 --> 00:17:14,995 It is about, if people are talking a little bit louder, it's about art. 242 00:17:15,805 --> 00:17:19,675 Then you have the work on the walls or in the center of the 243 00:17:19,675 --> 00:17:24,085 Romes, if there's sculptures and so forth, and you have history. 244 00:17:24,595 --> 00:17:26,215 You have so much history. 245 00:17:26,575 --> 00:17:31,805 You have the energy of the creativity of the people who created the works. 246 00:17:32,735 --> 00:17:36,995 And all the people who walked through the museum to have looked 247 00:17:36,995 --> 00:17:41,195 at this work to have engaged with this work in one way or another. 248 00:17:41,495 --> 00:17:45,815 Whether some engaged on a more deeper level or some just wanted 249 00:17:45,815 --> 00:17:49,625 to see the work and the beauty. 250 00:17:50,825 --> 00:17:52,070 And also. 251 00:17:52,715 --> 00:17:54,005 Here's the other thing. 252 00:17:54,425 --> 00:17:58,805 It's that when they write the poetry, this is something I was thinking about since we 253 00:17:58,805 --> 00:18:04,125 connected as well, that even though it's something I had thought about, is how when 254 00:18:04,125 --> 00:18:11,265 I work in a museum setting that while I say that we are connecting with the past. 255 00:18:11,910 --> 00:18:16,590 Because we're connecting with those who created the work, those who walked through 256 00:18:16,590 --> 00:18:23,160 those museum halls in the past, and of course, we're connecting with the present. 257 00:18:23,760 --> 00:18:29,160 What happens when we're writing the poems is that we're also connecting to a future. 258 00:18:31,440 --> 00:18:38,460 Like a way of seeing the world that hadn't been spoken yet or written about 259 00:18:38,460 --> 00:18:40,920 yet because you just wrote that poem. 260 00:18:41,310 --> 00:18:46,500 And also I think that this is a way of having agency. 261 00:18:47,200 --> 00:18:53,650 Our presence in the world is that we can look at something and we can 262 00:18:53,650 --> 00:19:02,860 start asking it questions to also be connected with it in a way that brings 263 00:19:02,860 --> 00:19:12,800 us to a different space that is beyond those cubic feet in the museum gallery. 264 00:19:14,165 --> 00:19:17,435 Claire Bown: There's a very special atmosphere in museums. 265 00:19:17,435 --> 00:19:20,995 You can see it as soon as people cross the threshold, there's 266 00:19:20,995 --> 00:19:22,885 a different atmosphere there. 267 00:19:23,345 --> 00:19:26,165 And even, if yourself, you're feeling stuck in your work and 268 00:19:26,215 --> 00:19:29,245 you're able to take half an hour in a museum in the middle of the day. 269 00:19:29,245 --> 00:19:32,515 I don't know what it is, but there's something about the environment itself 270 00:19:32,515 --> 00:19:35,365 that really fires up your creativity. 271 00:19:35,415 --> 00:19:40,335 So tell me about the different types of museum programs you facilitated. 272 00:19:40,335 --> 00:19:44,435 I know you've worked with Mocha in la you also do artful 273 00:19:44,435 --> 00:19:46,415 conversations at the Brand library. 274 00:19:46,775 --> 00:19:50,645 So tell us about the different sorts of programs you do and then maybe what 275 00:19:50,645 --> 00:19:52,805 a typical session might look like. 276 00:19:53,360 --> 00:19:53,870 Tina Demirdjian: Sure. 277 00:19:54,650 --> 00:19:58,040 I'll tell you like some of the little ways, some of the ways I've 278 00:19:58,040 --> 00:19:59,870 gotten my students into the museum. 279 00:19:59,870 --> 00:20:05,060 So I had a job where I live at the Glendale Youth Alliance. 280 00:20:05,120 --> 00:20:12,470 And I remember Lisa McMurray, bless her, she had hired me to teach for one month. 281 00:20:12,860 --> 00:20:15,350 One month of poetry, four days a week. 282 00:20:15,410 --> 00:20:16,880 Four hours a day. 283 00:20:17,210 --> 00:20:21,530 And I thought, oh, either these kids are gonna love me or not love 284 00:20:21,530 --> 00:20:23,720 me at all by the time this is over. 285 00:20:23,720 --> 00:20:23,960 Right. 286 00:20:25,670 --> 00:20:26,960 I loved it. 287 00:20:27,860 --> 00:20:33,360 It was the, it was probably the most concentrated time of, poetry that 288 00:20:33,360 --> 00:20:36,060 I've ever experienced in my life. 289 00:20:36,660 --> 00:20:40,230 And I will tell you with them, we wrote, they were second language 290 00:20:40,230 --> 00:20:45,930 learners also, and then I took them I took them to two museums. 291 00:20:45,930 --> 00:20:52,420 I took them to the Getty, but we had been writing so much poetry and, it always 292 00:20:52,420 --> 00:20:59,140 happens, the student most unlikely to want to write poetry, becomes the student 293 00:20:59,140 --> 00:21:00,910 who writes the most powerful work. 294 00:21:02,800 --> 00:21:06,270 And the other boys would come to me and say, ' did he really write 295 00:21:06,270 --> 00:21:10,170 that or did he, did you, did he take it from somewhere?' I said 'No. 296 00:21:10,290 --> 00:21:11,190 He wrote that'. 297 00:21:11,700 --> 00:21:15,030 And so in that case, I took him to the Getty. 298 00:21:15,090 --> 00:21:18,300 They wrote poetry and I took him to the Peterson Automotive Museum 299 00:21:18,400 --> 00:21:22,310 and I took them there and they all sat in front of the cars. 300 00:21:23,480 --> 00:21:28,550 And what I did was I talked about how are you going to write this poem. 301 00:21:29,060 --> 00:21:34,260 Initially I would start with similes, metaphors and onomatopoeia. 302 00:21:34,610 --> 00:21:38,210 It was the easiest way to really connect. 303 00:21:38,840 --> 00:21:42,610 So, I would do, let's write a simile. 304 00:21:42,610 --> 00:21:43,725 Someone find the color. 305 00:21:44,560 --> 00:21:48,010 Someone would point out a color, someone write as simile, what 306 00:21:48,010 --> 00:21:49,600 is a simile for that color? 307 00:21:50,050 --> 00:21:54,940 And then we do the same with metaphor, trying to really scaffold the learning 308 00:21:55,030 --> 00:21:59,860 of figures of speech with what was happening in the museum and what was 309 00:21:59,860 --> 00:22:01,690 available for them to connect with. 310 00:22:02,530 --> 00:22:06,220 So that was one way I connected students. 311 00:22:06,880 --> 00:22:08,770 As time progressed though. 312 00:22:10,300 --> 00:22:14,950 I started thinking about how I wanted them to connect with the work. 313 00:22:15,610 --> 00:22:20,050 So then, especially when I started artful conversations at brand library, 314 00:22:20,470 --> 00:22:26,380 I started to take what the curators wrote about the concept of the work 315 00:22:26,380 --> 00:22:35,470 in the gallery, and I said, oh, I do plenty of found poetry using other text, 316 00:22:35,710 --> 00:22:38,380 like, I'll just go off for a second. 317 00:22:38,620 --> 00:22:42,400 When students are having difficulty with science, for example, I'll 318 00:22:42,400 --> 00:22:43,930 say, go into a science book. 319 00:22:44,020 --> 00:22:50,560 Let's pick out a paragraph and let's do some work with found and redacted poetry. 320 00:22:50,860 --> 00:22:55,765 What that means is, when they're looking at the concept of what the 321 00:22:55,765 --> 00:23:01,975 curators wrote, what they really saw as a power of the work in the gallery, 322 00:23:02,695 --> 00:23:04,825 and they took the writing on the wall. 323 00:23:05,155 --> 00:23:09,875 I said I usually make a copy on a worksheet so they have it in front 324 00:23:09,875 --> 00:23:14,465 of them, and I say, I want you to pick out your favorite words. 325 00:23:15,770 --> 00:23:18,170 Pick out your favorite words and circle them. 326 00:23:19,220 --> 00:23:24,560 And I said another part of the assignment can be is you can walk around the 327 00:23:24,560 --> 00:23:28,610 gallery and pick out your favorite titles of the art pieces as well. 328 00:23:31,070 --> 00:23:34,190 And so with that, we're gonna write a spine poem. 329 00:23:34,895 --> 00:23:37,205 And the spine poem is exactly what it is. 330 00:23:37,205 --> 00:23:38,915 It's a spine down our back. 331 00:23:39,125 --> 00:23:41,105 I say one to three words per line. 332 00:23:41,495 --> 00:23:49,505 And what that does is it helps us focus, absolutely focus without having any extra 333 00:23:49,505 --> 00:23:53,195 words, on what seems to be most important. 334 00:23:53,195 --> 00:23:59,945 And suddenly the curator's concept expands. 335 00:24:00,845 --> 00:24:02,315 It's still what they said. 336 00:24:02,960 --> 00:24:06,360 But it actually gives new life to what it is. 337 00:24:06,870 --> 00:24:10,350 And I actually can read a couple, if that would be of interest to you. 338 00:24:10,350 --> 00:24:11,160 That would be great. 339 00:24:12,120 --> 00:24:19,950 Here's the piece written by Jean Hartman, a Wing and a Prayer, which was the title 340 00:24:19,950 --> 00:24:24,850 of the artwork, but also the exhibit 341 00:24:25,150 --> 00:24:28,300 thrown away, forgotten, used up. 342 00:24:28,870 --> 00:24:31,030 Yet become something new. 343 00:24:31,630 --> 00:24:33,190 Flying above the past, 344 00:24:33,610 --> 00:24:34,900 sending solace 345 00:24:35,200 --> 00:24:36,940 to those who have read 346 00:24:37,570 --> 00:24:39,130 you over and over. 347 00:24:39,520 --> 00:24:41,710 Now, finding a new soul, 348 00:24:42,100 --> 00:24:43,720 sharing an old knowledge, 349 00:24:44,020 --> 00:24:44,800 remembering 350 00:24:45,100 --> 00:24:45,850 what used to be 351 00:24:45,850 --> 00:24:46,600 important, 352 00:24:46,870 --> 00:24:48,820 wrapping me in inspiration. 353 00:24:52,510 --> 00:24:56,620 Claire Bown: Now, the person who wrote that, had they written any poetry before? 354 00:24:56,620 --> 00:24:56,680 Yeah. 355 00:24:56,710 --> 00:24:57,490 Was it a student? 356 00:24:57,490 --> 00:24:58,270 Was it an adult? 357 00:24:58,310 --> 00:24:59,380 Tina Demirdjian: It was an adult. 358 00:24:59,740 --> 00:25:04,930 and most of the people I work with, there are a few who will say, ' I write poetry'. 359 00:25:05,500 --> 00:25:06,430 Very few. 360 00:25:06,730 --> 00:25:14,330 I would say 10%, 20, if i'm lucky, but not even lucky. 361 00:25:15,110 --> 00:25:19,280 I'm actually more lucky when they haven't written poetry because this is 362 00:25:19,280 --> 00:25:23,270 the part that I shared in the beginning is where I change people's minds. 363 00:25:24,680 --> 00:25:28,940 All of a sudden it's something they didn't think they can do. 364 00:25:29,930 --> 00:25:35,270 And here's the other part I wanted to share with you as well is that it is 365 00:25:35,270 --> 00:25:37,760 because I know they will write a poem. 366 00:25:38,435 --> 00:25:41,765 That I believe creates part of that ease for them. 367 00:25:42,665 --> 00:25:44,525 I already know they're gonna write a poem. 368 00:25:45,065 --> 00:25:50,015 I consider myself someone who brings poetry with me when I enter the 369 00:25:50,015 --> 00:25:56,195 room, whatever room it is, whether it's a boardroom, a classroom, or a 370 00:25:56,195 --> 00:25:59,165 museum gallery, I already know that. 371 00:26:00,215 --> 00:26:06,155 So my job is always how am I gonna connect with that person to accomplish 372 00:26:06,155 --> 00:26:08,165 what I know is going to happen anyway? 373 00:26:08,560 --> 00:26:13,120 It's a little bit, it might sound a little strange, but it's very true. 374 00:26:13,520 --> 00:26:15,680 This happens with my students as well. 375 00:26:16,100 --> 00:26:20,720 Even if I'm gonna have them, let's say for five sessions, they're second 376 00:26:20,720 --> 00:26:24,770 language learners, and it's the older students that are always more 377 00:26:24,770 --> 00:26:26,630 concerning than the younger students. 378 00:26:26,960 --> 00:26:30,620 The younger students are always very excited to do anything. 379 00:26:30,860 --> 00:26:35,240 Once they hit sixth, seventh grade, then I know I need to be pulling 380 00:26:35,240 --> 00:26:36,260 a little bit more from them. 381 00:26:37,260 --> 00:26:43,290 Engaging them more, but still, I believe it's the ease that helps engage them 382 00:26:43,560 --> 00:26:50,490 and brings access to poetry and to art to those students or those adults. 383 00:26:51,330 --> 00:26:54,870 Claire Bown: Can you talk a little bit about that sense of ease, because 384 00:26:54,920 --> 00:27:00,760 we talked as well off air about people feeling intimidated by art, by 385 00:27:00,760 --> 00:27:04,120 museums as well, and also by poetry. 386 00:27:04,450 --> 00:27:10,130 And I've done activities before around poetry which have, like 387 00:27:10,130 --> 00:27:14,680 you say, always created poems, always created fantastic poems. 388 00:27:15,040 --> 00:27:18,910 When you first introduce the idea, now we're gonna create a poem. 389 00:27:19,310 --> 00:27:22,400 There's sometimes a little ripple through the room or maybe an 390 00:27:22,400 --> 00:27:24,920 eye roll or I can't do poetry. 391 00:27:24,920 --> 00:27:31,070 So how do you create that sense of ease that you talk about and get people over 392 00:27:31,070 --> 00:27:33,360 that hurdle of feeling intimidated? 393 00:27:34,610 --> 00:27:39,250 Tina Demirdjian: I think that people forget. 394 00:27:40,170 --> 00:27:41,950 That they're really part of the world. 395 00:27:42,570 --> 00:27:51,150 It's a strange thing to say, but when I start to just talk about poetry and 396 00:27:51,150 --> 00:27:58,950 also sometimes read poems and say how I've connected with poetry and how I 397 00:27:58,950 --> 00:28:03,370 also used to be nervous when I would read out loud, that I understand that 398 00:28:03,650 --> 00:28:05,610 and that I never liked to write before. 399 00:28:05,830 --> 00:28:12,070 I also like to go right into it, because I think sometimes I don't like to say too 400 00:28:12,070 --> 00:28:18,790 much without going right into it, because then I, I don't wanna create that tension. 401 00:28:18,970 --> 00:28:25,270 I rather create the tension of them trying to think what kind 402 00:28:25,270 --> 00:28:27,250 of blue that is in the painting. 403 00:28:27,580 --> 00:28:30,520 Is it the morning sky or the night sky? 404 00:28:31,855 --> 00:28:39,895 And right away when I start using poetry and that process, I believe it creates the 405 00:28:39,895 --> 00:28:44,755 ease and suddenly it doesn't seem so hard. 406 00:28:45,055 --> 00:28:51,205 And to be honest with you, sometimes the hardest part really is not when I have 407 00:28:51,205 --> 00:28:57,745 the people around me and I have their attention, it's getting them there. 408 00:28:58,660 --> 00:29:05,950 It's using the word poetry in the title of an event that 409 00:29:05,950 --> 00:29:07,750 is probably the hardest sell. 410 00:29:08,740 --> 00:29:13,770 Because right away people, un people will say, 'oh yeah I don't like poetry' 'Oh, I 411 00:29:13,770 --> 00:29:20,575 had a teacher who told me I was terrible and I never wanna write a poem again'. 412 00:29:21,205 --> 00:29:24,205 I've had many adults tell me that. 413 00:29:25,045 --> 00:29:31,097 Also, sometimes , they have a certain standard of poetry and poets that they 414 00:29:31,097 --> 00:29:37,007 want to live up to and feel like if they can't, then they're certainly 415 00:29:37,007 --> 00:29:38,717 not somebody who can write a poem. 416 00:29:39,287 --> 00:29:42,617 So sometimes I also have to dismantle that as well. 417 00:29:43,847 --> 00:29:49,727 And when I have longer periods of time to teach, usually let's say. 418 00:29:50,907 --> 00:29:54,357 Like at Artful Conversations, we have an hour and a half, but really 419 00:29:54,357 --> 00:29:59,267 I only have 45 minutes because Valerie Taylor, who's a wonderful 420 00:29:59,267 --> 00:30:05,997 art historian and also my colleague, she takes the first amount of time to 421 00:30:05,997 --> 00:30:07,737 really walk us through the exhibit. 422 00:30:07,737 --> 00:30:12,237 Now, that's a completely different experience because she's doing part of the 423 00:30:12,237 --> 00:30:15,997 work that I might do when I'm teaching. 424 00:30:17,257 --> 00:30:24,967 But when I have more time, editing has become one of the most important aspects 425 00:30:24,967 --> 00:30:27,847 of writing that I advocate for now. 426 00:30:28,547 --> 00:30:35,027 Years ago, I created simple 10 steps to editing your poem to create to, 427 00:30:35,237 --> 00:30:37,277 for your poem to become more powerful. 428 00:30:37,607 --> 00:30:44,057 And this is where I let people know that they have agency over their work. 429 00:30:45,107 --> 00:30:48,707 Sometimes people think things will just come down and they'll 430 00:30:48,707 --> 00:30:54,767 be inspired, but the inspiration just doesn't come from top down. 431 00:30:55,067 --> 00:30:57,347 It actually comes from inside out. 432 00:30:58,487 --> 00:31:01,007 So all of us have that capacity. 433 00:31:01,847 --> 00:31:06,002 And so when I talk about editing, especially my students, and I'll 434 00:31:06,002 --> 00:31:11,142 say, in my classroom or in my workshop, ' is this powerful? 435 00:31:11,562 --> 00:31:20,232 Or can it make it more powerful?' And so that gives the participants the idea that 436 00:31:20,232 --> 00:31:22,812 they have agency over what they wrote. 437 00:31:23,562 --> 00:31:28,212 And not only do I think everyone has a poem in them, but everyone has 438 00:31:28,212 --> 00:31:30,852 at least one powerful poem in them. 439 00:31:31,512 --> 00:31:34,902 Beyond that, it's their choice. 440 00:31:35,052 --> 00:31:40,032 It's their decision whether they choose to be a poet or not, or 441 00:31:40,032 --> 00:31:42,012 live in the world in that way. 442 00:31:42,642 --> 00:31:48,552 So that ease is also created with my understanding, but 443 00:31:48,552 --> 00:31:50,502 also with the work itself. 444 00:31:50,982 --> 00:31:56,592 You are connected to so much in history and suddenly you don't realize it. 445 00:31:56,892 --> 00:32:02,142 So when I bring it back to their being part of that history, 446 00:32:02,952 --> 00:32:04,812 I think it opens people up. 447 00:32:04,917 --> 00:32:08,037 Claire Bown: So I love that idea of opening people up. 448 00:32:08,147 --> 00:32:12,307 One thing that you were mentioning there was the editing process, and 449 00:32:12,307 --> 00:32:16,587 I'm fascinated by that, that's part of the process of writing a poem. 450 00:32:16,587 --> 00:32:18,927 It doesn't just stop once you have your first draft. 451 00:32:18,927 --> 00:32:19,017 Right. 452 00:32:19,047 --> 00:32:23,187 There's an editing process that you work through, and then also 453 00:32:23,187 --> 00:32:25,307 there's the reading part of the poem. 454 00:32:25,607 --> 00:32:25,697 Yes. 455 00:32:25,697 --> 00:32:28,427 Which you emphasize as well. 456 00:32:28,427 --> 00:32:31,237 And i'd love for you to talk a little bit about that, because I think 457 00:32:31,237 --> 00:32:35,827 that's another layer of building confidence that we're adding on here. 458 00:32:36,127 --> 00:32:40,687 Confidence in writing poetry, confidence in editing the poetry, 459 00:32:40,747 --> 00:32:43,027 and then reading it aloud. 460 00:32:43,027 --> 00:32:45,307 So perhaps you could talk us through that a little bit. 461 00:32:45,607 --> 00:32:46,327 Tina Demirdjian: Absolutely. 462 00:32:47,882 --> 00:32:55,277 I love having this as part of the work because something different happens 463 00:32:55,277 --> 00:32:58,802 to us when we read our work aloud. 464 00:32:59,972 --> 00:33:01,472 It changes. 465 00:33:01,552 --> 00:33:06,352 And I also use it as part of the editing process. 466 00:33:06,862 --> 00:33:12,317 And I tell people: 'and stand up even when you're just in your house, stand up 467 00:33:12,317 --> 00:33:17,687 and recite the poem, because look at your words, because that rhythm is created'. 468 00:33:17,897 --> 00:33:19,367 How do you create that rhythm? 469 00:33:19,417 --> 00:33:23,587 How do you hear your poem? 470 00:33:24,067 --> 00:33:25,207 What is happening? 471 00:33:25,507 --> 00:33:32,707 And that connection to poetry and the arts and the process of creativity, different 472 00:33:32,707 --> 00:33:34,627 parts of our brain are lighting up. 473 00:33:35,947 --> 00:33:42,757 In fact, on a tiny tangent, if I may, this is how I got interested in neuroscience 474 00:33:43,087 --> 00:33:48,757 and what was happening in my brain when I had the first draft of the poem. 475 00:33:48,837 --> 00:33:54,447 But then what was happening in my brain when I started to make changes. 476 00:33:55,587 --> 00:33:59,067 And part of that process is through recitation. 477 00:33:59,787 --> 00:34:05,847 So I really believe something changes in the students when they get up to 478 00:34:05,847 --> 00:34:15,177 recite and they have a certain value that they didn't have of themselves before. 479 00:34:16,422 --> 00:34:21,372 And sometimes, depending on how nervous a student is, now I have learned, 480 00:34:21,432 --> 00:34:32,062 over my 30 plus years, how to add some tension and allow my students or workshop 481 00:34:32,062 --> 00:34:34,612 participants to be slightly uncomfortable. 482 00:34:35,542 --> 00:34:39,982 It's okay to then get up and recite their poem. 483 00:34:41,767 --> 00:34:44,947 And to be open also, if they cry. 484 00:34:45,907 --> 00:34:48,307 I have cried many times when I recited my poems. 485 00:34:48,607 --> 00:34:51,787 I don't like it still, I have to admit all these years later. 486 00:34:53,197 --> 00:34:59,917 But it's that absolute connection to people in the audience, whether they're 487 00:34:59,917 --> 00:35:04,657 in the gallery or they're in the classroom, or they're in your workspace. 488 00:35:05,602 --> 00:35:08,242 That reminds us that we are human. 489 00:35:08,392 --> 00:35:12,532 So sometimes what I'll do with my students, especially the middle to high 490 00:35:12,532 --> 00:35:17,792 school age, I don't really usually have to do this with the adults, but middle 491 00:35:17,792 --> 00:35:20,862 to high school age I'll stand with them. 492 00:35:21,942 --> 00:35:23,022 I just stand next to them. 493 00:35:24,162 --> 00:35:27,612 And sometimes I have students that will talk like this. 494 00:35:28,972 --> 00:35:32,932 You just, you don't know what you're gonna do to be able to raise 495 00:35:32,932 --> 00:35:35,152 their voice and be able to project. 496 00:35:35,902 --> 00:35:41,252 But you know what, I think of that as a special challenge because 497 00:35:41,252 --> 00:35:43,142 I want them to hear themselves. 498 00:35:43,322 --> 00:35:44,282 I really do. 499 00:35:45,422 --> 00:35:48,932 And sometimes they're just people who are always quiet. 500 00:35:49,787 --> 00:35:56,244 And then sometimes they're just people who suddenly don't know how they're gonna be 501 00:35:56,244 --> 00:36:01,074 vulnerable in front of their classmates, who think of them in another way. 502 00:36:01,869 --> 00:36:02,319 Right. 503 00:36:03,129 --> 00:36:08,289 So, I will stand next to them and try to create as much ease. 504 00:36:08,319 --> 00:36:10,929 Like, I don't want them to be nervous, but I'll say, oh, 505 00:36:10,929 --> 00:36:12,339 we're gonna do this together. 506 00:36:12,759 --> 00:36:18,179 I'm gonna say the first line, and I want you to meet the pitch of my voice. 507 00:36:18,629 --> 00:36:20,519 I want you to be as loud as me. 508 00:36:20,769 --> 00:36:22,909 And so that's how we work it out. 509 00:36:22,999 --> 00:36:23,539 And. 510 00:36:25,099 --> 00:36:30,199 I love it when suddenly by the end of the series they're 511 00:36:30,199 --> 00:36:31,969 getting up without any issue. 512 00:36:32,419 --> 00:36:35,369 Claire Bown: And I'd like to just look to the future. 513 00:36:35,949 --> 00:36:38,809 Perhaps we can look ahead, what's next for you? 514 00:36:39,329 --> 00:36:42,539 Perhaps if you could tell us how people can find out more about 515 00:36:42,539 --> 00:36:44,849 you and how they can get in touch. 516 00:36:45,749 --> 00:36:46,499 Tina Demirdjian: Absolutely. 517 00:36:46,529 --> 00:36:49,349 Thank you so much for this opportunity, Claire. 518 00:36:49,559 --> 00:36:50,789 It's been such a pleasure. 519 00:36:51,249 --> 00:36:54,769 So first of all, I'm poetry consults. 520 00:36:54,889 --> 00:36:56,389 That's the name of my business. 521 00:36:57,139 --> 00:36:59,209 Poetry consults.com. 522 00:36:59,819 --> 00:37:01,379 You're welcome to write to me. 523 00:37:01,409 --> 00:37:04,349 I'm my Instagram handle's a little bit different. 524 00:37:04,379 --> 00:37:06,359 It's @poetinastudio. 525 00:37:07,139 --> 00:37:11,909 You can find me there, you can see some videos I've created of 526 00:37:11,969 --> 00:37:16,709 some of our times at Brand Library doing the artful conversations. 527 00:37:16,709 --> 00:37:21,609 You can see a recent publication called Remain in Light, where I was 528 00:37:21,609 --> 00:37:26,949 part of an anthology of photographers and poets through uc, LA's Fowler 529 00:37:26,949 --> 00:37:29,419 Museum program that we had there. 530 00:37:30,199 --> 00:37:36,139 And, i'm working on my next book, working title is Artemis 531 00:37:36,139 --> 00:37:37,519 and the book of Questions. 532 00:37:38,159 --> 00:37:40,079 But also A couple of things. 533 00:37:40,754 --> 00:37:42,314 that I'm very excited about. 534 00:37:42,314 --> 00:37:46,214 So one of the things that I'm working toward is literacy and leadership. 535 00:37:47,489 --> 00:37:55,049 Whereby I would like to train a cadre of poets, young poets in the community to 536 00:37:55,139 --> 00:38:02,549 learn how to facilitate the writing of poetry and to bring them into a museum or 537 00:38:02,549 --> 00:38:10,659 gallery with me, and to become the leads in creating poetry with the community. 538 00:38:11,624 --> 00:38:12,644 So that's one. 539 00:38:12,644 --> 00:38:17,774 And then the other also is the Neuroscience Resource Center. 540 00:38:18,404 --> 00:38:24,874 I am very excited to be connected with this project 541 00:38:24,904 --> 00:38:26,704 called the Neuro Arts Blueprint. 542 00:38:27,244 --> 00:38:33,004 I'd love to be teaching a poetry workshop with a neuroscientist, doing 543 00:38:33,004 --> 00:38:35,194 the practical and then the research. 544 00:38:35,464 --> 00:38:37,924 And finally, I'm going to say that. 545 00:38:38,524 --> 00:38:45,004 The next step in some of my workshops and museums is I'm looking at making 546 00:38:45,004 --> 00:38:52,344 the connection with neuroscience myself in using a museum's collection, to 547 00:38:52,344 --> 00:39:02,919 create lessons that help attendees consider uncertainty, build resilience 548 00:39:03,579 --> 00:39:11,979 and using art and poetry as an avenue toward building wellness 549 00:39:12,654 --> 00:39:18,654 in a way that maybe art and poetry wasn't used before, because we have 550 00:39:18,654 --> 00:39:21,684 different language around all of this. 551 00:39:21,804 --> 00:39:26,334 And so those are some of the things that I'm very excited about and very 552 00:39:26,334 --> 00:39:31,014 happy that I have the opportunity to share them and to connect with other 553 00:39:31,014 --> 00:39:36,949 people who are connected with you and in the very important work that you 554 00:39:36,949 --> 00:39:39,755 do in bringing engagement to museums. 555 00:39:40,940 --> 00:39:42,740 Claire Bown: Thank you so much for sharing that. 556 00:39:42,740 --> 00:39:45,380 Lots of exciting things on the horizon. 557 00:39:45,480 --> 00:39:51,390 Thank you so much for taking the time to share all the details about your work. 558 00:39:51,420 --> 00:39:53,940 It's been absolute pleasure talking to you. 559 00:39:53,970 --> 00:39:54,720 Thank you, Tina. 560 00:39:55,500 --> 00:39:56,700 Tina Demirdjian: Thank you so much, Claire. 561 00:39:58,620 --> 00:40:01,950 Claire Bown: So a huge thank you to Tina for being on the show today. 562 00:40:02,310 --> 00:40:08,010 You can find out more about Tina and her work@poetryconsults.com, 563 00:40:08,400 --> 00:40:10,320 or you can follow her on Instagram. 564 00:40:10,370 --> 00:40:14,780 Go to the show notes for all the relevant links for today's episode. 565 00:40:15,590 --> 00:40:20,270 And if you've enjoyed this episode or if any of our previous episodes 566 00:40:20,270 --> 00:40:24,890 have helped you in your work, please consider supporting The Art Engager. 567 00:40:25,250 --> 00:40:29,240 Become a friend of the podcast on Patreon, your support. 568 00:40:29,460 --> 00:40:33,000 Helps keep this content free and accessible. 569 00:40:33,390 --> 00:40:39,180 Or you can pick up a copy of my book, The Art Engager Reimagining Guided 570 00:40:39,180 --> 00:40:44,430 Experiences in Museums Available now wherever you buy your books. 571 00:40:45,180 --> 00:40:46,350 That's it for today. 572 00:40:46,470 --> 00:40:48,660 Thank you so much for joining us. 573 00:40:48,780 --> 00:40:49,950 See you next time. 574 00:40:50,940 --> 00:40:55,240 Thank you for listening to The Art Engager podcast with me, Claire Bown. 575 00:40:56,250 --> 00:41:00,240 You can find more art engagement resources by visiting my website, 576 00:41:00,240 --> 00:41:05,070 thinkingmuseum.com, and you can also find me on Instagram at Thinking 577 00:41:05,070 --> 00:41:09,450 Museum, where I regularly share tips and tools on how to bring art 578 00:41:09,450 --> 00:41:12,120 to life and engage your audience. 579 00:41:13,260 --> 00:41:17,490 If you've enjoyed this episode, please share with others and subscribe to the 580 00:41:17,490 --> 00:41:20,310 show on your podcast player of choice. 581 00:41:21,240 --> 00:41:24,450 Thank you so much for listening, and I'll see you next time.