Anuj:

So i say to her listen, i’ve got this crazy idea, i need you on board for it, there’s a lot of risk involved but i think this could be a possible solution to my dilemma.

Alex Melia:

Welcome to Stories of Men Beneath the Surface, join me as we discover what it means to be a man in the modern era.

Anyone who has spent more than a few years in the working world will know that careers are a trajectory of ups and downs.

The company that Anuj worked for had just been bought out by a big telecommunications company. He had gone from loving his job to absolutely hating it. The culture had changed, they wanted to trim expense at every opportunity and every day, he was getting more and more stressed with the reality of having a young family and a desperate work situation…

Even though I hated my job, I actually did have a really nice team. And I did like a quite a few of my colleagues. So it wasn't all doom and gloom. But I was suddenly told by my boss that I needed to let them go, I needed to make them redundant. And I needed to do that quite quickly. So I really liked these guys, one of them I'd worked with for four years, the other person was relatively new, but no one really likes to deliver this kind of bad news, someone's not gonna have a job anymore. So that evening, I'm at home, and I'm sat at the dining table, my head in my hands, Peter comes in, and she says, What's up, and just, I don't really want to talk about it. But I kind of have to say she keeps prodding. And then I eventually say, I've got to make redundant, two of my colleagues or two of my team members, rather, Sarah and David ptosis. Pity, you know, that, you know, I hate this job. You've seen how stressed I am, and how upset and depressed I am about working for a company like this. But I say to her, Listen, I've got this crazy idea. I need you on board for it. There's a lot of risk involved. But I think this could be a possible solution to my dilemma. She's always been very supportive of me. So she says, Listen, I trust what you, you think, and you can share what you what your idea is. And let's discuss it and I want to support you. We ended up talking about it, we had to talk about lots of different scenarios, and she had loads of questions about what might happen. And then we agreed a plan of action going forward. I'd started this conversation, quite nervous and, and not really wanting to be that forthcoming because it was an uncomfortable topic. And then, by the end of this conversation, I felt full of confidence. And actually, in a weird where it's quite looking forward to the next day, even though I didn't know what was going to happen. So I had to speak to my team members at 2pm. Because my boss had said, I had to, you know, to get on with this. So I did speak to my boss, at some point before them to propose my plan. And so I managed to get 12 o'clock in the diary with him. So I put this meeting room for midday tiny room, he walks in, I'm quite nervous. I just want to get this over and done with but I'm afraid I might just blurt everything out in the wrong order. So he comes in, we sit down within within some small talk, but I can't really deal with that. So I said, Listen, let's dispense with the small talk, I need to talk about something a bit serious here. And he looked a bit like or what's going on here? Because I'm usually quite light hearted. So it's not used to be big, excessively serious. And then I said this, and I've got something to propose to you. So obviously, I've got to deliver this bad news to sarin. David, I really don't want to do it. I actually went home last night, and I talked to Peter about instead of making those guys redundant, how about I volunteer for redundancy instead, you can keep those guys and get me off your books instead. I wasn't sure of what to expect, though. He could be really annoyed. But actually, a smile started to show on his face, which was not quite what I was expecting. And he said, Well listen, if you want to leave, we can definitely talk about that. But I still want to get rid of those two guys. And I said, Listen, there's no need to get rid of them. They they can do the work. You don't need a senior manager like me. But I think his orders from on high were to just reduce headcount whatever way.

Clearly, you're a man with a lot on your shoulders. Right now, you've got two very young kids, a baby and a toddler. You've got pizza, your wife, who is clearly doing a tremendous job being a mother and wife to the family, but is in need of your support with with what you're bringing into the family financially. So to have her support must have been incredibly important to you as well to make that kind of decision.

Yeah, it was vital is vital. She was on maternity pay as well, which which meant it was a reduced income. So Well, lots of kind of very practical measures. But I think she very much realised that I wasn't going to find some happiness unless I took myself out of what was a relatively toxic situation as in I just wasn't happy where I was. I

think a lot of men can relate to this if they've been in a similar scenario, and I think a lot men have. How would the situation have been different if your wife wasn't supportive? Because I mean, I've spoken to many guys before who are not in that situation that their, their wife has got this anxiety or or this fear of, you know, the kind of financial situation there'll be in. But pizza was just there to support you all the way.

Yeah, it's very difficult to answer that question because I guess I knew that I could propose because it would be well received, then we'd have a good discussion around it. And I wouldn't necessarily be blindsided with a kind of very aggressive pushback. She asked some really sensible questions about what we're going to do practically. And she really tested what I was planning to do in the absence of being in this job that I didn't like. So it wasn't just go and do what you need to it was, let's have a talk about what else this means. So it was a collaborative and supportive and like a bit of a co created kind of situation, as well, as

a lot of a lot of people talk about men are in this sort of provide a role this protector role. Did you very much feel like that in that moment in 2015? Very much.

So. Yeah, you know, I'd had a very kind of conventional South Asian upbringing, very focused on academics, and going to university and getting a job as a lawyer. But I always had this kind of yearning for something more. And that's why I'd moved from different jobs. And the reason I ended up at this, this company that I didn't enjoy, I worked for a great company called Blinkbox. And it was, it was my ideal role after having bounced around a few different things I found somewhere that was really vibrant. It was two entrepreneurs, who the founders who was still running the business, we had a very big parent company. So we're well funded. And there was a real dynamism there. And there was a real kind of, let's break some rules, let's try and do some things differently. And they love the cultural side of stuff. And they also had a place where I could offer up my ideas, and you know, you know, they were well received. And in, they backed me on certain things. So I started a department that bought on Team etc. And it was brilliant. Everyone was going amazingly, but then the company started struggling financially and had to be sold to another company. And that's the, that's the telecoms company that I ended up joining, which I didn't enjoy, it

must have been must have been difficult to go from this sort of, you can really display this entrepreneurial flair, they call it like an intrapreneur, don't they within a bigger organisation. So you've got this sort of freedom, this creative freedom, and then you have to go into this huge organisation, we won't mention the name, but it's a massive organisation. That must have been quite a difficult shift for you, right?

Yeah, yeah. And I really noticed the difference in culture and approach to, to pride in work and output. And there was a stark difference. And I think that's really what kind of made me have issues with it. But to go back to this idea of the male provider, that's what kind of kept me in in that role, because I had to keep going. Having a young family. And you know, my wife has a good job, too. So it wasn't like I was the sole provider. But she was on maternity leave. And and so there was a lot of pressure on me to keep this going. And, yeah, having to balance that between being actually quite unhappy. How

did you feel staying in a huge corporate job that you didn't like, for 50 months, it feels like a long time, what were the overriding feelings and emotions you were feeling in that time,

I really became disconnected with any purpose. The quality of work was poor, just generally, what I'd really liked about being a Blinkbox is that everyone really cared about doing a good job for each other. And I didn't get that from this new company. And so consequently, I think my work products have suffered in terms of quality. And actually, I was just in this sort of a vicious cycle of starting to want to get out, I wanted to get out, I was looking at jobs that I really didn't want. I was going for a few interviews for them, and I wasn't getting the jobs. And you know, this was further denting my confidence because I couldn't really see a way out.

You mentioned before about the legal career that you went down and becoming a lawyer, and for the fact that you're from a British, South Asian family. I'm curious, when we think in the UK, about British, South Asian families, we think of these stereotypical roles, these jobs, that they're almost directed into, whether it's a doctor, whether it's a lawyer, and you went into that one of those areas where you went into becoming a lawyer. In retrospect, was that your purpose in life? Do you think to go down that legal route? Or do you think it was the influence of your family or combination of the two?

Very interesting question because I've, we're having children of my own now who were my eldest is about sort of secondary school and very much asking these questions about how we approach things. There is an element as an immigrant of needing security. So you You look to kind of old school professions that provide that for you. So certainly there was parents pushing me actually more in the direction of medicine. I didn't want to do that. So I very early on said I didn't. And I actually kept rebelling about stuff. And when I left university and went into media, and not really knowing what I was doing to be fair, and then like a lot of lawyers, I decided to go to law school because I didn't know what else to do. I knew I wasn't stupid. And so I just looked at it. And there were subconsciously, probably something that I thought would be met with approval from my parents.

I and I'm interested in the kind of the change of direction that you've gone in. Since leaving this big organisation, I nearly said the name of but what what direction did you go in? And does that fit in with your your purposes, as a man nowadays,

it's been a married journey, I set up a business with a friend health and fitness business for over 50s really enjoyed that. It was not something we were going to continue. But it was a great foray into the world of entrepreneurship. And I've kept kind of as a freelance lawyer in the background. And now I've actually, it's a really good question. Because what I've realised is, I think we're always led to believe that we should find a job that we love. And I just don't think that's a realistic expectation. Actually, I think a job that allows you to do what you want to do is a much better way to look at it. Because there's always going to be bits that you like, and bits that you don't like, of whatever you're doing. And now I'm really enjoying it, because I'm truly freelance, and I only need to do a certain number of hours a week, that gives me a lot of hours to do other things, spend more time with my kids, take them to all kinds of acting football, whatever classes they need to, but also do a lot of my own kind of personal stuff or going to the gym, meditation, all the hippie stuff I'm loving at the moment.

Well, going back to that that difficult decision that you and your wife pizza made, you know, it's clearly paid off for, for you and your your family, because you're in a good place, psychologically, spiritually, emotionally, physically, all these things, you're in a good place. So where would your life have been? As a man, if you'd had stuck out that big corporate job? Where would you be right now, do you think if you could envisage the news of, of 2023 but stuck in that job? Well,

if I look back, and I reflect on it, I feel like I would have made some big change at some point anyway, I don't think I would have to take this lying down for indefinitely. However, it did free me up and I've gone down a lot of blind alleys since then, it's not nothing is this perfect path. And where I am now, in the last sort of nine months, things have really started to come together on on many levels, mostly my approach to life. But that's been after a lot of pain and things not working out. I think people often think that if they're jumping, particularly in career change from something, they want an instant hit, they want something to be instantly that's going to pay them as much as the thing that they're doing, and be more fulfilling or whatever and, and be the right thing as well. And actually, you're probably about four or five steps away from that in any one point. But you need to make that first step in order to get there to the ultimate destination. And there is no ultimate destination, because this changes over time as well. So there is a kind of fluidity and adaptability that you need to be open to. And I do think that actually in this current environment now of being able to have, you know, quote unquote, portfolio careers, there's an opportunity to experiment with a few different things, actually. And that's kind of where I'm at, you know, I do my legal stuff for two, three days a week. And then I've got a kind of a play area where I can experiment with you things I've got a podcast to about the cannabis industry, which is, you know, pretty Maverick. But that's been a great experience for me. And one of the things that I really love about that it's the first thing that I've ever did, with no outcome in mind at all. This just roll the dice. And again, I don't think I would have been in that space if I hadn't have quit my job a few years ago and you know, and freed myself to do things like that

wanted to ask you about your role, because I'm always curious as to what kind of hat do you put on with those people, not just necessarily when you were telling them that they were going through redundancy, but your role as a supervisor, leader, all To prove kind of Uncle, what sort of what sort of hat were you wearing? With these people?

Yeah, very good question. I felt very paternalistic. And probably because it was a time of life for me as well, we have very young children. So, themes of fatherhood were very big in my life at that point, and they still are. But you know, it was very fresh at that point. And so there was a kind of gentle support that I wanted to offer them, to remind them that they were still young, and they're in their 20s. And, you know, they've got a whole career ahead of them. And there are lots of opportunities out there. And like I said before, this, this idea of a feeling of rejection that comes from redundancy, I'm not wanted by my employer, is pretty big. And I'm really glad that I never felt that, you know, profoundly. But I definitely know that lots of people do. And they, they certainly did. And so it was a question of really supporting them and helping them in their onward journey, helping them prepare for interviews, you know, opening up my kind of address book to sort of make introductions for them to, and yeah, support would probably be the single word I'd use.

One thing I found really attractive for managers story is just how supportive his wife pizza was, that you feel you can talk to about anything, and they're willing to back you 100% In a decision, even when you feel like you're trying to move mountains, they would always be there for you unconditionally, no matter what I knew, she clearly had a track record of being a hard working person and a real go getter. He used integrity. So when he suggested taking redundancy, his wife, Peter knew that this was a pragmatic decision, and not an emotional one. And many times we can allow our emotions to override our logic, but not Peter. In this case, she trusted him to do the right thing. It also made me think about the amount of people that stay in a job that they hate, the lack of self reflection of fear, or even a combination of the two. It's almost like they don't realise that not making a decision is still a decision that they've made to stay doing something that they hate. I think we've all been there at times, haven't we? It's interesting, because I was reading up on this. And according to the seven hidden reasons, employees leave a book by Leigh Branham 89% of bosses wrongly think that their employees quit, because they want more money. And I know I've done that before as a business owner, when in reality, I think we're seeing something of a revolution in this area, from Gen Z's towards work, that they're leaving, because they don't feel seen, heard or valued, rightly or wrongly. Who is the pizza in your life? Who Could you turn to when the shit hits the fan? And there's a difficult decision to be made? Someone that's going to listen and allow you to be seen and heard? Surely we all want that in turbulent times? Surely we all want that in turbulent times. And if you are lucky enough to have a pizza in your life, treasure them. One last thing I want to say about today's episode, is that as previously stated, a niche played the role of protector, but he wore many hats in his role as a man in today's story is absolutely key that we know ourselves as much as we possibly can, in order to grow as men. And that's one of the premises of this show is to help you and help myself as well. Hence why we decided to put together a very short quiz for you to figure out what type of man you are. It takes just five minutes to complete, and it could be exactly what you need right now, in order to get to the next stage of your life. Whether that's in your health, wealth, love, or even happiness, head to stories of men podcast.com to take the quiz. We'll also put a link in the description to enjoy